The Hot Button: Can Bobby Cox handle a pitching staff?
You know, I don’t just write these little posts. I listen to what you folks have to say about them. And in the wake of the Mets’ eight-run inning against Derek Lowe on Tuesday — not to be confused with the Braves’ eight-run inning against Bobby Parnell on Wednesday — the matter of Bobby Cox and his pitchers arose yet again.
I would suggest a check of the Braves’ team ERA over the fullness of time stands as powerful evidence that Cox does indeed know how to wrangle pitchers. From 1991 through 2002, the Braves finished first, second or third in the National League in ERA every blessed season. The only way that happens is if a staff stays healthy. The only way a staff stays healthy is if the guy in charge doesn’t overwork his men.
I know, I know. Cox had Leo Mazzone rockin’ beside him back then, and it was only after the 2002 season that the Hall of Fame rotation came unstuck — Glavine left for the Mets and Millwood was traded to Philly — and the Braves’ pitching hasn’t been quite the same since. So some of you will say: “See? That shows Cox had little to do with it. Things just managed themselves.”
In my time around big-league baseball teams, I’ve never seen any team manage itself. And I’ve seen Hall of Fame managers — Sparky Anderson in Cincinnati, say — preside over a staff that tended prime young pitchers (Don Gullett, Wayne Simpson) come down with arm trouble. The Braves fared obscenely well with the health of their starters for an obscenely long time, and that cannot have been an accident. Not for 12 consecutive seasons.
Mazzone left after 2005, and the Braves finished 10th among NL teams in ERA in 2006 and 12th last season, when all the old guys got hurt. Last season, I would submit, was a function of age, not managerial neglect. As Roger McDowell, Mazzone’s successor, has said: “There are only so many pitches in an arm.”
Given the proper arms, McDowell has held up his end. The Braves were third in the NL in ERA in 2007 and are third again now. They have a nice new rotation that has yet to see any of its members placed on the disabled list, and that’s ultimately the test of a rotation and its oversight. As Jim Leyland has often said: “It’s not necessarily the best staff that wins but the healthiest.”
And now you’re saying: “Typical — Bradley defends Cox. What’s next? A post about the sun rising in the East?” And I say …
For all his strengths, the man has taken to overtaxing his bullpen.
I wish I understood how a staff tied for the big-league lead in quality starts — a pitcher works at least six innings while yielding three or fewer runs — can also have three relievers rank in the top five among big-leaguers in appearances. (Peter Moylan has pitched in 65 games, Eric O’Flaherty and Mike Gonzalez in 60 apiece.) With so many quality starts (72), you’d think it would work the other way.
Loading ...As we know, Cox uses the same guys over and over. He deploys his closer in non-save situations, which other teams take pains not to do. Rafael Soriano has worked in 54 games, with more than half those appearances (28) under non-save circumstances. Jonathan Papelbon has worked in only 19 non-save games, Brad Lidge in 18, Joe Nathan in 15, Mariano Rivera in 14.
(No, Soriano hasn’t been the full-time closer all season. He and Gonzalez split the duty for a while. But Gonzalez has worked in 35 non-saves.)
My problem with Cox isn’t that he leaves his starters in too long — the business with Lowe on Tuesday was an obvious exception — but that he wears his relievers to a frazzle without cause. (It wasn’t always this way. At no other time in this decade have the Braves had more than one reliever among the top 10 in games.) The Braves have three relievers with 60-plus appearances. The Yankees, Red Sox and Dodgers have none.
So there’s my answer, and I apologize for it being a half-step. But it’s clear, at least to me, that the same guy who handles his starters expertly has placed an undue strain on his bullpen. And when your closer yields two game-losing home runs in the span of eight days … well, it does make you wonder, does it not?
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227 comments Add your comment
Barry
August 20th, 2009
10:12 am
First!! Spot on Mark. I think he is the ultimate manager of starting pitching, but I don’t think I have ever agreed with how he handles relievers, going back to his first tenure with the Braves.
Barry
August 20th, 2009
10:17 am
His record with starters is undeniable. He gives them the chance to pitch out of trouble. However, I don’t think he allows them the opportunity for complete games often enough. In the old days, he managed relievers too much by “the book.” Always lefties vs. lefties and righties vs. righties. I don’t have as much problem with how often the closers pitch as much as the setup guys. I think he could often squeeze another inning out of the starter, and if it isn’t a close game, don’t use the setup guys. It seems like Moylan pitches every game. I think Moylan is an outstanding talent, but he’s over-used. And now that Soriano is experiencing some arm issues, how about Gonzalez as the closer on occasion? That worked well earlier in the season.
Rock Preston
August 20th, 2009
10:21 am
I cant understand why Cox runs Gonzalez out there seemingly every night. I wonder when he will wear out.
DevilInLaw
August 20th, 2009
10:27 am
These guys’ arms will fall off before Bobby stops trotting them out there.
jeffrey d
August 20th, 2009
10:27 am
Thanks for writing about this Mark.
A lot of the crap Bobby gets on here, Schultz’s, and DOB’s blogs for leaving starters in too long is done in retrospect. But Tuesday…that was just painful. The whole world knew that Derek Lowe wasn’t on, but the camera kept cutting to Bobby who was still enough to be taking a nap. He later said he was hoping to get a ground ball to get the DP – DOB said he didn’t have the heart to point out that at that point the 9th and 10th batters of the inning were up) – but you can’t really get a groundball when your sinker isn’t sinking.
But the relievers, it’s embarrassing. It’s not just this year. Every year the announcers are noting how Braves relievers are leading the majors in innings pitched and appearances. Ray King, Chris Reitsma, Macay McBride….
Novice Ned
August 20th, 2009
10:33 am
Soriano looked as happy about pitching in a 15-2 blowout last night as Sean Hannity at the last Presidential Inauguration. Remember the time that Bobby rediscovered Manny Acosta earlier this season, and then proceeded to pitch him in 3 consecutive games? And in that third game, Acosta suddenly pitched like Dan Kolb. At least the guys who he is wearing out this season, Moylan, Gonzo & O’Flaherty, have never had arm or back issues. Right? Hello?
Vince
August 20th, 2009
10:37 am
The Braves turned things around(I hope not too late) when Bobby Cox decided to play the hot hitters(Prado, Diaz, ect.)when they were streaking. Why doesn’t he do the same thing with the bullpen?. Let them set up or close based on their recent(last 2-3 outings) performance and use different combinations each night to give them more rest. In this setup Moylan, O’Flaherty, Gonzalez, or Soriano could set up or close. It would give them each more rest, give Cox more options, and keep the other teams guessing. Through in the Gwinett closer after Sept. 1st and you would have plenty of options.
Jt
August 20th, 2009
10:48 am
I am a Bobby Cox fan. Cannot argue with the results he has obtained. My only problem with the way he handles pitchers is that I think he does not go enough by instincts and current results. He relies a little too much on the righty/righty and lefty/lefty match up. I have seen him take out a left handed reliever who was getting good results in order to bring in a right hander. So, he burned 2 pitchers without seeing if a particular lefty could get out a right handed hitter. As far as Lowe the other night, it drove me crazy. I know the reason he left him in- all the hits were ground balls or softly hit bloopers- and he was trying to get a ground ball. But, it was clear (before the game was tied at 4) that Lowe had neither the stuff nor the confidence to get another out. It looked like Lowe was hoping Cox would come take him out of the game. It was a 4 run lead- could not afford to let that game get away- needed someone to stop the bleeding and he waited WAY too long
Robert
August 20th, 2009
10:52 am
I wish the Hillbilly Deluxe would come up with a song about Bobby Cox or any subject. It was nice comic relief recently on Farve.
The Grinch
August 20th, 2009
10:54 am
It’s not just that he wears the same ones out while the others languish, but his absolute refusal to look at splits when making matchup decisions is absurd. We lost the other night when he took out the hot Gonzalez (who Ryan Howard has a .170 ba against) to insert a cold Soriano (who had been terrible for a week straight and Howard had a ba over .300 against) because it’s what his “book” says. One pitch, game over. There are 10-12 such games a year, where EVERYONE watching the game except David O’Brien either grabs their forehead in disbelief or throws a beer/remote at the TV set.
The only way for a Bobby Cox managed baseball team to win is if the starter goes 7 or 8 and gives up less than three, or if the offense strings together 12 consecutive doubles (or both). The fact that we were able to win a World Series during his tenure despite that albatross is a testament to the talent and luck that have pervaded the roster. What I don’t understand is that every time one or the other of those things happen, announcers and journalists scream “Genius!” from the rooftops, as if he’d done anything other than take a nap on the bench.
Those voices seem quieter now, though, don’t they?
tvsportscaster
August 20th, 2009
10:56 am
Good points, Mark a prime example is last night. Why on earth did he deem it necessary to use four pitchers in a 15-2 blowout, bring one reliever in and let him finish the game. Granted that said pitcher is probably not available the next day, but it’s better than overworking three guys.
Kendawg
August 20th, 2009
10:59 am
It looks like some of the relievers could go two-three innings on occasion and have more rest between appearances.
jimmy
August 20th, 2009
11:01 am
you don’t like smoltz,vick and now cox are you trying to take terrance moore’s place
"Chef" Tim Dix
August 20th, 2009
11:04 am
In a word, yes.
BravesFan79
August 20th, 2009
11:04 am
Exactly! No excuse for running out both Gonzo AND Soriano in a game that’s not even close! Take the San Diego game for example. I said using both closers in that last game would cost us a game in the Dodgers series. And the very next night, Soriano gives up the big HR and the Dodgers win.
I still think Gonzo is one of the best relievers in the NL when used right. How does Cox expect his guys to be fresh at the end of the season when he constantly runs them out in blowouts? (not counting all the times they warmup in the pen)
What gets me is Cox will use Gonzo/Soriano in a non save situation time after time, but if were down by 1 run going into the 9th inning…. count on him putting in Acosta! And watch as the Braves go from 1 run down to 3 or 4 runs down.
Phil
August 20th, 2009
11:05 am
Moron Cox has been awful at handling a pitching staff for the last 20 years, the Lowe debacle Tuesday night was just another sorry chapter.
We know Cox is a total idiot, but you think Roger McDowell would have thrown a bucket of cold water on Cox Tuesday night and said “Bobby, we have to get him out of there! He is pitching half crippled, giving up hit after hit, run after run! The game is getting out of hand! Wake up Bobby, Wake up!!!!!!!!”
And then last night, why was Soriano in the game? I thought all those guys were over used! Let him get some more rest! Cox is using these guys when you don’t even have to!
Robert
August 20th, 2009
11:06 am
I can agree with Bobby’s critics that he sometimes leaves pitchers in too long or makes the wrong move but have you ever played fantasy baseball and did all the right things based on past stats just to have the .100 hitter against a pitcher hit two home runs on your bench while the .500 hitter against a pitcher you subbed in went 0 for 4.
jeffrey d
August 20th, 2009
11:08 am
jimmy – did you not even read the article?
Bama Aaron
August 20th, 2009
11:10 am
Mark I’ll give you an A for effort in trying to defend him, but it’s not just about innings pitched. Of course the numbers looked better back in the 90’s…I honestly don’t think Cox’s managing had much to do with trotting 3 HOF’ers out there.
Fact is the man has no managing instincts and I’m sick to death of Braves announcers talking about his “by the book” system. I can’t count the number of times I’ve screamed the the tv when he’s taken a hot pitcher out just so he could have his lefty/lefty or righty/righty matchup only to see the new pitcher get rocked and the game be lost.
Or continually using the same pitchers 3 or 4 games in a row until finally by the 4th game they get rocked and we lose a game.
Don’t get me wrong I appreciate all that Cox has done for the organization, but alot of the times it almost seems as if they win inspite of him instead of because of him.
Excellent job, MB
August 20th, 2009
11:10 am
Always wondered what he looked at as indicating it was time to take out his starter. How many times have we seen this year, last year, year before,etc…the starter doing good work not seeming to struggle, and then the seventh rolls around and the bullpen march starts. I get especially frustrated with the young guys, JJ especially. He seems to get pulled after 6 whether he has thrown 100 pitches or 60. Here’s an almost related question: Why do managers, certainly BC is included in this, get so worked up about the lefty/lefty thing but the righty/righty thing seems to be no big deal?
Robert
August 20th, 2009
11:11 am
If Bobby retires or is fired, who would we get as a replacement now or at the end of the season?
im4ball
August 20th, 2009
11:11 am
Cox seems to be adhering to (at least) three different philosphies; get your pitchers some work to keep their arms loose, don’t overwork one pitcher so you can use him the next night and then the (tired) old left/ right combination.
Where all this comes apart is when a starter gets into early trouble and you have to go to the pen. Now you are going with guys who just pitched the day before and thus may not be totally fresh.
what many do not see is how often a pither may warm up to come in which could be a couple of times in a game or he warms up and never makes it in. Add to this warm ups during the day and any practice they might do and you have a lot of pitches on those arms.
Cox needs to slow down the merry-go-round and things will be better
Blaine Boyer
August 20th, 2009
11:12 am
The guy ruined my career!!
lee
August 20th, 2009
11:12 am
i think to answer the question all you have to do is look at the past!! Everyone talks about 14 stright division titles!! but only 1 world chapionship!! i do not see this as the historical celreation as most people do. i see it as a failure!! the reason that the braves did not move on to play for more world series chapionship is the same thing we still still see now. Bobby Cox is not capable of handling a pitching staff. the only difference is shows up so much more in the playoff!! now he is is totally delusional and detached that it is now becoming more visible during the season!!
BravesFan79
August 20th, 2009
11:12 am
What i would like to see more of is Cox using his relievers to keep the game close.
For example, if were clinging to a lead in the 6th inning, and have bases loaded with 1 out… why not use Soriano there to try and get a strikeout? If you use your closers in blowout wins time after time…. why not use them in middle of the game situations before the game becomes a hopeless blowout we have no chance in winning?
I didn’t see the end of the game last night… but he used Soriano?? really?? Why am i not surprised!?
Homer
August 20th, 2009
11:13 am
FIRE BRADLEY!!!
Mark Bradley
August 20th, 2009
11:18 am
Four pitchers in a 15-2 game is two too many. I’d agree with that.
BravesFan79
August 20th, 2009
11:18 am
Bobby Cox’s biggest pitching failure ever: The last good team we had, when he ran Mike (NOT a big game pitcher) Hampton out there to start against the Astros in game 5. Smoltz was in the pen but wanted that start and should of been given it!
But nope…. Bobby just HAD to go by the book, and by the time Hampton’s sorry azz was dragged out of the game, it was a blowout. Funny, Cox had no problem using Smoltz in the 6th inning of that game to keep things “close”. That year it should of been the Braves in the World Series… NOT the Astros!
Mark Bradley
August 20th, 2009
11:20 am
I understand there’s a need to keep relievers sharp. There’s also a need to keep them fresh.
There’s a fine line between clever and stupid: That’s our credo here in Spinal Tap.
Phil
August 20th, 2009
11:20 am
BravesFan79,
Yes, that Moron brought in Soriano to pitch in a 15-2 game. Chipper could have pitched the 9th in that situation and given the pen some more rest! What an idiot.
Brian
August 20th, 2009
11:21 am
BravesFan79…only once all year has Acosta entered the game in the 9th inning down by a run. In 8 of his last 11 appearances, the margin was at least 4 runs when he entered.
You’ll have to provide some evidence that pitching in the San Diego game caused Soriano to give up a home run in LA. That’s quite a logical leap. Did he say after the game his arm was tired from pitching the day before (which was his first game in four days)?
tvsportscaster, just who do you suppose could have gone three innings to finish that game? Rule out Gonzalez, Soriano, O’Flaherty, and Moylan, because their arms are “falling off” apparently. Boone Logan pitched the previous two nights. Manny Acosta has pitched three innings exactly zero times in his career. Medlen went more than two innings the previous night. Maybe we should have called someone up from AAA during the game?
ExecutiveStinger
August 20th, 2009
11:21 am
Would you agree Mark that it is almost as if Bobby wants to “give everybody a turn”, because that is always the perception that I have had. Like in blowout games when we are winning, instead of leaving the starter in there a little longer and just letting him pitch, he brings in some random reliever who maybe hasn’t pitched in a few days just to give him a turn. And then, like in the game 2 nights ago against the mets, he takes Lowe out, understandably brings Medlen in, but then decides it’s time for Manny Acosta. Huh? I don’t know, I’m sure he has a method and is trying to balance it all out, but I don’t understand his methods at all. It’s almost like he is trying to show respect to his starters by not forcing them them to pitch too long, but that’s what starters, by definiton, are there to do. Give you a good 7 innings. I don’t know, his methods are bizarre to me, and it’s killing our bullpen. We said last couple of years that our bullpen was so bad because it was being overused due to the poor starting pitching, but this year we have great starting pitching and 3 or 4 guys are still among the league leaders in innings pitched. C’mon Bobby…..
EW
August 20th, 2009
11:22 am
Agreed MB, take the other night agains Philly as an example. We put Gonzalez in in the 8th and then bring in Soriano in for the ninth. But wait, who was leading off in the ninth? None other than Ryan Howard, who was batting .193 against lefties at the time. I don’t have to tell you what happened next, but wouldn’t leaving Gonzo in for ONE more batter have been the obvious move (and no we didn’t pinch hit for him in the bottom of the 8th or anything like that)? And on top of that we have another lefty in the pen.
Navigator
August 20th, 2009
11:22 am
I’m more to the point, never has and never will.
Bank Walker, Texas Ranger
August 20th, 2009
11:23 am
Cox is one of the alltime worst at over using a bullpen. He is to relievers as Billy Martin was to starting pitching. Martin had a stable of quality young pitchers in Oakland. A year later they all have arm troubles from being over worked. An example of Cox other than the obvious of Soriano pitching in a blow out, Moylan and Gonzo are coming off arm issues, what does Cox do, gives them 100 apperances. I wonder if the over use of the pen has anything to do with the success of the starters.
Mark Bradley
August 20th, 2009
11:25 am
Actually, I figured the Braves would have had a bunch of guys in the top 10 in appearances the past few seasons. But this year has been the most blatant.
AUMilo
August 20th, 2009
11:25 am
Why not let relievers pitch two innings at times???
Jurrjens4NLCY
August 20th, 2009
11:28 am
I’m really sick of people complaining about Bobby Cox. Seriously! When is it going to stop? If anyone of you whiners knew anything about baseball, you would know that deciding when to take out a pitcher and when to leave him in is the hardest thing for a manager. They stress about this all the time, its what keeps Pinella, LaRussa, Cox, Torre, etc. up all night. Furthermore, I believe its wrong for people to critic (although thats putting it lightly, you people are b*tching) something, if they can not to better themselves.
Bobby’s uniqueness entails building up players’ confidence. Do you think taking a pitcher out as soon as he gets in a jam is going to bode well in the long run? No. That player is going to get pissed. You also CAN NOT overuse an already tired bullpen by taking out a pitcher to early. Managers judge whether to let a pitcher get through a jam based on how good his pitches are, not the result of his pitches. If 4 men in a row get 4 cheap singles in the 2 inning, are you going to take him out? Well, you should say no.
If you want to root for a manager that is the anti-Bobby, then become a White Soxs fan and stop making Braves fans look stupid.
I would also like to add that I really like the White Soxs and have nothing against them expect for Ozzie Guillen.
MJM
August 20th, 2009
11:28 am
Bobby doesn’t leave his starters in long enough when thery are pitching well and too long when there not. The thing the other night with Lowe was ridulous. I still believe there was somthing physicially wrong with him.
The Grinch
August 20th, 2009
11:29 am
Fair enough, Robert, but just how about throwing the numbers out and looking at the same scenario a different way? Gonzo was pitching well, Soriano was not, and why the hell would you pitch to Howard in the 9th with first open anyway? There; no fantasy stats needed.
Y’all have a good day; I gotta get some work done.
PMC
August 20th, 2009
11:30 am
One of the things players seem to like about Bobby is that he keeps giving them chances to succede and tries to put them in places to succede. He was trying to give Lowe a chance to get out of it and put them in a better position the other night so he wouldn’t have to use his pen for so long. Generally the starters are asked to go at least 6 innings. He does overuse certain guys in the pen because he trusts them.. but I honestly don’t know how much because I’ve never managed and I have no idea how long they can go, all I can do is compare statistics.
Honestly looking into the pen, It’s been fairly average to almost unreliable most of this decade, there are only a few guys that are fairly trustworthy and it’s difficult to depend on any of them to throw strikes consistantly so there isn’t much of a wonder he would wear out guys he feels comfortable with in order to keep starters more fresh for this time of the year.
rhynster
August 20th, 2009
11:32 am
You have to almost wonder if the Braves have no intention of resigning either Gonzalez or Soriano.
It’s seeming alot like how the Brewers bled CC Sabathia to death during their pennant chase, because they knew they wouldn’t resign him.
Also, I’ve always thought the consistency of most relievers is spotty at best. That inconsistency is why many of them wind up in the bullpen instead of starting. Seems to me that going with the hottest hands out of the bullpen is the best strategy.
Arkansas Transplant
August 20th, 2009
11:32 am
Mark,
I agree with you whole heartedly and have always felt that way. Why was Soriano out there lastnight is such a huge win? Why is it that you have a very promising rookie in the pen that gets very little work in games like that? Lastnight was a good night to get a few guys that don’t often see work a little warm up.
Mitchell
August 20th, 2009
11:33 am
What does it have to take for somebody to have a complete game in ‘09?
I mean, I get wanting to use Soriano in the 9th and perhaps Logan or whoever and that usually when you have a 12 run lead you’re starter can take a rest but under what circumstances would it take for Bobby to leave his pitcher in the whole game?
That’s what bothers me, it’s that we went out and spent all that money on these guys who throw lots of innings and were supposed to go deep into games and yet the bullpen has been involved in every game this year.
It’s ridiculous. I feel like if Javier Vasquez had a no-hitter going into the 9th inning and then gave up a hit to the first pitcher Bobby would take him out.
Other than the lack of run support, Bobby’s reliance on the bullpen has to cause more stress to the starting pitchers than, well, less. It’s like as soon as they run into trouble in the 6th or 7th inning he takes them out. And if it’s a close game and they don’t have a lot of runs to work with, it makes it even harder on them. They must have that thought in the back of their minds, “hey’s going to take me out if I don’t get this guy.”
But then he leaves Lowe in to give up 8 runs so nevermind.
Tami
August 20th, 2009
11:35 am
AMEN, Mark! At last! SOMEONE is saying what I’ve been thinking all along. Don’t get me wrong, though: I admire Bobby. But I wanted to pull him through the TV the other night for night for not pulling Lowe sooner. It was quite obvious and NOT coincidental that Lowe couldn’t locate his pitches or get a good grip on the ball right after the trainer bandaged up his blistered thumb on his … pitching hand. And, yes. Bobby does tend to wear out his bullpen. Frustrating.
Bank Walker, Texas Ranger
August 20th, 2009
11:35 am
EW, totally agree. I would rather have seen Craig Skok come out of retirement and pitch in that situation than have a right hander. (Thats right, Criag Skok. He was left handed and he was below average)
gmoney
August 20th, 2009
11:35 am
I think he looks for the first opportunity after 6 innings to use a pinch-hitter in the pitchers spot. Blame this partly on poor run support and a need to get an extra bat in there. But I’d love to see guys working into the 8th or even going for a complete game.
Arkansas Transplant
August 20th, 2009
11:37 am
rhynster, hottest hand is the best way, in the field and on the mount. I feel that a lot of the losses we took in the playoffs were because of this very fact. Cox has always loved sitting starters when we’ve had things all wrapped up, meaning they’re all refreshed for the playoffs but they are also out of rythmn. That’s the thing over the years that has always made me mad about cox.
Phil
August 20th, 2009
11:38 am
Jurrjens4NLCY,
I see you know how to cut and paste.
Lowe was in more than a just a jam, the game was getting busted wide open. Or did you have your eyes closed as well like Cox did.
skip
August 20th, 2009
11:40 am
Short and sweet: Cox lets Charlie Leibrandt pitch to Kirby Puckett in the ‘91 Series and we blow it. Makes the same mistake again in ‘92 by letting Leibrandt pitch to Dave Winfield and we lose again. The man cannot handle pitchers; starters or relievers.
The Grinch
August 20th, 2009
11:40 am
EW and others, I was at a game a couple of years ago where Cox allowed CHUCK JAMES to pitch to Howard with first open in a 1 run game where he’d already hit his 5th inning wall. His first pitch (can’t remember if it was his 88 mph fastball or his 86 mph change) went right over the wall. The thing is, everyone at the park KNEW it the second the catcher squatted instead of giving the intentional walk sign. How does Everyone and their child know what to do and not Bobby? It’s almost as if someone randomly picked him from a place where they don’t play baseball just to see what would happen.
Now I’m really gone.
washedup
August 20th, 2009
11:41 am
I think Bobby should bring Mazzone back. . .well,actually I don’t. .I’m just trying to get him off the radio. .awful!
Brian
August 20th, 2009
11:42 am
And I quote, Mr. Bradley:
“My problem with Cox isn’t that he leaves his starters in too long — the business with Lowe on Tuesday was an obvious exception — but that he wears his relievers to a frazzle without cause. (It wasn’t always this way. At no other time in this decade have the Braves had more than one reliever among the top 10 in games.)”
You make two nearly opposite statements back-to-back. You say he wears his relievers out, then you say he doesn’t have a reliever in the top 10 in games this decade. I would like for you to provide evidence of your statement that he “wears his relievers to a frazzle”.
Smitty
August 20th, 2009
11:44 am
Cox’s mismanagement of the bullpen has cost the Braves championships. Using the same couple of guys over and over wears them out by the end of the season and they have nothing left. Its obvious that Soriano is tired and overworked. And while I’m at it why is McCann still in the game catching in the 6th inning of a huge blowout??? Give the guy some rest, he’s wore out too.
Brian
August 20th, 2009
11:45 am
Should say “more than one reliever”.
DDog10
August 20th, 2009
11:48 am
I agree wholeheartedly on the misuse of the bullpen. Why was Soriano used last night when the game was a route?
Ross
August 20th, 2009
11:49 am
A great analysis and correct in all points. There is something you missed though…
Cox is getting old, and sentimentality sometimes rules his actions I think. He’s in there fighting with the players when he needs to maintain his distance. He didn’t want to pull the plug on Lowe – gave him chance after chance to get that ground ball when it was clear his sinker wasn’t sinking and batting practice was on. The TV cut to Cox repeatedly and you could see in his face his thoughts were not on the scoreboard or the stike zone, but on ol’ buddy Lowe. Cox’s fatal weakness is his love for his players. A leader has to keep some distance and be dispassionate. Of course, it makes Cox a better man if not a better manager.
It’s never too late to learn – the older we get the harder we are to teach. I wish Cox could develop a thicker skin when it comes to handling his players, instead of just managing them.
-drl
Brian
August 20th, 2009
11:50 am
I’ve never seen so much anger after a 13-run win. LOL…
jacketss77
August 20th, 2009
11:53 am
I didn’t believe when I read someone in the blog post that Cox used Soriano last night…not gonna lie, I didn’t watch the last couple of innings to that game…so I went and checked the box score…I seriously can’t believe he used our closer in a 15-2 game….I could understand if he hadn’t pitched in a week or more…but come on…makes absolutely no sense…I was just talking about this in one of the blogs here yesterday…there have been so many times this year when this has happened and it has cost us in the next game or two…
Uncle Rico
August 20th, 2009
11:54 am
bottom line…we needed to add a BP arm at the deadline & did not.
Wren’s logic (if you choose to call it that) was the fact that Huddy will be back “soon” & either he or Kawakami can go 2 the pen.
well, Huddy is still about 2 weeks away & coming off TJ surgery, so that hardly makes him a sure thing.
and KK has been extremely erratic, to say the least.
so for at least the entire month of Aug, we have the same problem we’ve had all year – Cox likes his 3-4 guys & they get all the work & then their arms turn into warm yogurt in Sept.
no reason at all to pitch Soriano last night.
it’s better to let 1 guy (Medlen/Gonzo/Moylan) pitch all 3 innings in a blowout like that instead of getting 3 arms warmed up & then used for no reason.
someone needs to remind BC that he’s not the pitching coach.
Hillbilly Deluxe
August 20th, 2009
11:54 am
As I posted yesterday, the “quality start” isn’t a good measure of a quality start in my opinion. Three runs in six innings is a 4.50 ERA. And isn’t part of a starters job to get deep into the game and help save the bullpen? My idea of a quality start is to go 7 or 8 innings and keep your team in the game. As every game is different, that can’t really be measured with a number.
As to the original question, can Bobby handle a pitching staff? He handled it a lot better when he had three Hall of Famers in the rotation.
scott
August 20th, 2009
11:54 am
Pretty weak at making out a line-up too. LaRoche is the perfect 4 hole hitter for this team, yet he has still not hit there since his arrival.
ChillyMutt
August 20th, 2009
11:55 am
I believe that’s its obvious he can’t handle a pitching staff. Seeing Bobby leave Lowe in the other night as Met after Met crossed the plate was bizarre. He has totally lost it.
dap01
August 20th, 2009
11:58 am
Ask Brad Clontz, Chris Reitsma, Greg McMichael, Moyland, Gonzo, and Soriano. These pitchers were ruined by overuse, one year overused, the next year hurt.
This year, this month, we are up by many runs and Cox will use Moylan, Gonzo or Soriano. Yet all three have shown signs of overuse.
His pitcher switches are bizarre at best. He is a great manager but he dont SEEM to have a clue about relief pitchers (and after Lowe the other night, Cox could learn a little about starters as well).
ann lewis
August 20th, 2009
11:58 am
I have been saying this for almost a year. it is time for Wren and Cox to go
bruce
August 20th, 2009
11:59 am
Medlin has proven he can deliver. He was “taking up a spot” when he first went to the bullpen, now and mostly going forward, he will get many more appearances in tough situations. Bobby stayed with him so Kris could get it together, now it will really pay off.
Also, rosters expand soon and more arms will be available to rest those needing rest.
Tom B
August 20th, 2009
12:02 pm
Is Cox the same manager he was in the 90’s and early 2000’s. Has he stayed too long? Is he still an effective manager? These are imo the questions to address. Has Cox so poorly managed his staff in a game before during a pennant stretch as he did the other night? Why wait so long to remove a pitcher, and in essence diminishing your ballclubs chances to win the game.A manager’s main job during a game is to make moves( or not) that puts your team in the best position to win the game. This is Cox’s Achillees heel IMO, game management.
Phil
August 20th, 2009
12:03 pm
Tom B,
Yes, Cox is the same idiot he was in the 90’s and early 2000’s.
Joe Fan
August 20th, 2009
12:06 pm
Watch out Bobby is now commenting on how well Medlin is pitching. What I hope is that he doesn’t over use him during the remainder of the 2009 season. Medlin will be a starter in 2010 allowing the Braves the flexibility to trade a starter or two for more offense. Plus I don’t believe you will see Hudson back in 2010 not with a $10 mil. option and a questionable arm.
Brandon Gay
August 20th, 2009
12:06 pm
You know, there’s a few simple answers as to why Moylan, Gonzalez and O’Flaherety have worked so many games. First of all, O’Flaherety is a lefty specialist and they usually work a lot of games, but often for less than an inning at a time. O’Flaherety has appeared in 60 games, but has only pitched 41 innings. Also, with Gonzalez serving as co-closer for much of the season, O’Flaherety was the only lefty available in middle relief.
As for Moylan and Gonzalez, they have pitched so many games because there have been so many close games. For most the season the Braves have scored few runs and given up fewer. This makes for close games. Lots of one, two and three run games in late innings. So, there have been lots of opportunities for the top relievers. I worry about Moylan pitching so many innings coming back from injury, but really, who are you going to run out there in a 1-run game in the 8th inning? Manny Acosta?
‘
Ed-Covington
August 20th, 2009
12:06 pm
“It wasn’t always this way. At no other time in this decade have the Braves had more than one reliever among the top 10 in games.”
MB: You said it. And this translated into how much success for the Braves this decade?
And you use Lidge as an example of how a successful closer should be used? What’s his ERA now? 12?
Hindsight BC haters are so fickle. One night it’s “why did he put Acosta in when Gonzo was available?”; and the next night it’s “why did he put Gonzo in with a four-run lead?” How many major league pitching staffs have anyone on these blogs ever been responsible for?
As I posted yesterday, look at “innings pitched”, not “appearances” to determine if a reliever is being over-worked or not. Judging “work” for a reliever is so subjective anyway. How do you count innings pitched in the bullpen and never entering the game? Sparky was notorious for having two relievers warming up in the bullpen in the fifth inning of a scoreless game. Now that’s overworked. Go Bravos!!
Brought to you by Carl Jr’s; Thank you very much.
Lunatic Fringe
August 20th, 2009
12:08 pm
If we don’t plan on keeping some of these pitchers for next year, then why not use them up this year?
tt44
August 20th, 2009
12:22 pm
Hi Mark, I respectfully disagree. The stats you gave are fine..however, compute them into wins and losses…..that is the important fact. And, in the early days Glavine, Smoltz, Maddux, Avery, to name a few…you and I couldve managed those fellas. In my observations over the years, BC has just dumbfounded me with most of his pitching decisions. So many times he has left starter in too long when it is so obivious the pitcher dont have his good stuff, ya know what are the odds of a ground ball DP when your pitcher is worn down during the game…I mean, I can tell at home wathchign the tv and I am going its time Bobby, take him out…(of course most of the time he doesnt) and then jsut like agains the Phils….not letting Gonzo picth to Howard, knowing he struggles aginst lefties….. un acceptable…., Bring in someone to handle pitching decision! Liebrandt against Puckett…hey those where huge games for the Braves….And, dont get me started on the choke dog hitting mentality the Braves have…thats another story! Thanks…TT44
59bulldawg
August 20th, 2009
12:25 pm
Keep in mind it’s easy to look good when you have the likes of Maddox, Glavine, Smoltz, Avery, and Smith on your staff for most of the 90s! Your grandma could have managed those years and still won 80-90 games a season.
SC Ace
August 20th, 2009
12:26 pm
Didn’t get to see the game. I want to say I’m stunned that Cox brought in Soriano to pitch. Not sure that I am, though. I want to support Bobby, but dadgum…
Born2Buzz
August 20th, 2009
12:31 pm
Bobby is the ultimate dichotomy (is that the right word MB) as a manager. He is the greatest regular season manager of all time (always even keel, never panics) but then he is the worst playoff manager (stays with a platoon system instead of playing the hot guys, no sense of urgency) and he seems to be the same way with handling the pitchers. He seems to be so intent on saving the arms of the starters that he’s overusing the bullpen. How can a starter ever pitch a complete game if you don’t let them try it, especially in a blowout victory like last night.
Jurrjens4NLCY
August 20th, 2009
12:31 pm
Phil, What qualifies you to complain about Bobby?
Phil
August 20th, 2009
12:35 pm
Lunatic,
We are trying to make it to the playoffs, and if we do we are going to need these guys to help out. They don’t need to be used up.
This whole question about Cox can be answered by the fact that Cox has lost more playoff games than any manager in baseball history. Do you think that someone that knows how to manage a pitching staff would hold that dubious honor?
Don’t think so.
uhohbraves
August 20th, 2009
12:39 pm
Funny how the vote always directly reflects what the blog is saying. Sheep. Bobby handles the starters well too? No.
tt44
August 20th, 2009
12:40 pm
Hey Phil, I’ll drink to that….Cox has made my hair turn grey!
jimmy
August 20th, 2009
12:41 pm
jeffery i did read the article.we are in a six and out situation with our starters.i feei with the limitations of our staff cox/mcdowell are doing a great job
peric i
August 20th, 2009
12:44 pm
Mark where do the Braves rank in complete games?
Mrs. Chanandler Bong
August 20th, 2009
12:44 pm
MB, I mostly agree. I think Bobby handles the starters pretty well. Although D.Lowe’s 4th inning was the inning from Hades, I understood Bobby leaving him. A veteran pitcher like that and you give him a chance to get out of it. At times I’m tempted to think Bobby overuses his 7-9 inning pitchers, but I just don’t think there’s anyone else strong enough to assume those roles. I do like how Medlen is coming along, though.
NO MORE BOBBY
August 20th, 2009
12:44 pm
I think (hope) this will be his last season. Just too much heat coming from fans and now you guys about Cox. Im sure Wren is aware of all this and will do some more Dr. Evil work in the off season. This will be the hardest though, removing a future hall of famer that has been with the team FOREVER. Hey, even Dale Murphy wore out his welcome in Atlanta.
Will be nice to move on, give him a statue outside Turner and retire his number.
Mrs. Chanandler Bong
August 20th, 2009
12:44 pm
P.S. In case you were wondering, I hacked my work’s website blocking system just so I could re-access your blog. I’M BACK BABY.
Mark Biles
August 20th, 2009
12:47 pm
I have always thought Bobby was clueless on how to handle his relievers. Funny thing is, it seems like he pulls his starters quick during the regular season, but not in the playoffs.
I remember a number of games over that past two seasons when he pulled starters who had allowed only one or two runs and then the relievers completely blew it because they’d been worn to a frazzle all year long.
Seems like during the playoffs and World Series, he’s left starters in games that they got their brains beat in early and the game was over (example is the 2000 playoffs versus the Cards at St. Louis when Smoltz gave up 5 or 6 runs in the first inning). Bobby is hard to figure in his handling of a pitching staff.
Uncle Rico
August 20th, 2009
12:49 pm
Bruce (11:59)….you’re correct about the Sept 1st roster expansion adding more depth to the pen.
however, this addition does not address 3 very important issues:
* the 5 months of the season that transpired before Sept. Regardless of who comes up from Gwinnett (even Huddy), the damage to the current arms is largely done based on overuse in June/July/Aug.
* the guys coming up aren’t exactly ringers. there’s a reason most of them still haven’t pitched in the show yet. to paraphrase Rick Pitino, “Dennis Eckersley is not walking through that door. Lee Smith is not walking through that door.” Hell – even Zane Smith ain’t coming through the door.
What we’re getting from the minors are innings eaters to mop up in big deficits (good & bad). that’s not all bad…I’d definitely rather save Moylan, Medlen, Gonzo, Soriano, etc & let some 20 yr old kid pitch in a 10-2 game.
* the waiver wire. who would you prefer to see on the hill in the 7th/8th if Gonzo or Moylan are tired and/or inneffective? aforementioned 20 yr old rookie or a 35 yr old vet who’s pitched in games down the stretch for 10+ yrs? We’ve all seen some of the waiver moves made since 7/31 (Smoltzie, Pudge, Alex Gonzalez to name a few). Surely there must be someone out there who’s available on the cheap & can contribute for the next 30 days.
Since the Braves have the worst record of any contender except the Cubs, they’d have a good shot at anyone on waivers.
I just don’t think it’s smart or fair to the young kid to expect him to take the mound in late Sept in a 2-2 game vs the Marlins or Phils in the 8th inning. Let the veteran do that & let the kid have the mop up innings until he’s ready.
oldmike
August 20th, 2009
12:52 pm
I still think it boils down to the quality start idea. If all you expect a starter to do is give you 6 innings then by definition you are trotting out 2-3 relievers a night. Why not ask the starters to go deeper in the game. Maybe to the 8th. Then at worst you need 1 or 2 to finish. The starters are your best pitchers aren’t they?
Maybe go to a 6 man rotation? The pitch counts don’t matter because you’ll have fewer starts and thus innings and pitches over the long haul of the season.
But, check out the stats for the horses of the sixties to the eighties. Seaver, Carlton, Gibson, Ford, etc. Regularly 250+ innings. Double digit complete games. And, long careers. Maybe there are other reasons why pitchers break down more today than innings. Breaking balls in their early teens? I don’t know the answer but the Braves under Mazzone always pitched a LOT. Strong arms stay strong by being used intelligently.
Scottbravesfan
August 20th, 2009
12:53 pm
Bobby letting Soriano pitch last night when the Braves were up by 12 runs was a joke.
Phil
August 20th, 2009
12:54 pm
Jurrjens4NLCY,
What qualifies me to complain about Bobby? Probably the same as you to worship him. How can you be content and happy about sitting home during the playoffs? This is where we are now with Cox. He’s not going to turn it around, it will be like this until he retires. Are you content for another 5 years of this should Cox decide to keep staying?
chris from md
August 20th, 2009
12:56 pm
Mark, I agree with everything you said. I wonder sometimes if Cox is thinking ahead. Even last night– I realize that Soriano hadn’t pitched in five days. But tonight we face Santana. If we pull off a win, odds are that we’ll need Soriano. And if we use him tonight, that means Soriano will either be unavailabe against the Marlins on Friday or pitching three days in a row.
The other thing that sometimes bothers me is that he rarely skips the 5th starter’s start. I realize that KK isn’t a whole lot worse than the others but I’d like to see JJ, Vasquez, and Hanson pitching every 5 days no matter what.
But like you, I think Cox is the best.
Chris from MD
frank
August 20th, 2009
12:56 pm
He can handle picking burgers, and making cute nicknames for grown men.
sincerely,
doggy, frenchy, smoltzie, joby
Brad Komminsk
August 20th, 2009
12:57 pm
I think part of the reason for the over-use is that the Braves do not finish games because they do not score enough runs (not counting last night). They have few blow-outs either way, and have played a bunch of extra inning games.
Allen Roberts
August 20th, 2009
1:00 pm
To me this has always been the downfall of the Braves and lack of World Series rings.Cox insists on carrying extra bullpen help but will only use 3 of 6 or 7 every day and by August those 3 wear down and have nothing for the postseason.The effects are a short bench(plus he is reluctant to DL anyone and always seems to have 1 or 2 players not available on an alreay short bench.) You or I could have looked good with Smoltz Glavine,Maddux,etc.
59bulldawg
August 20th, 2009
1:01 pm
As for Cox’s underachieving, it didn’t just begin with his 2nd Atlanta stint. It happened in Toronto as well! The great rosters he’s been privileged to manage hide many of his shortcomings but when he had not so talented a group of players during his first Atlanta stint, his great prowess at managing players did absolutely nothing and he was fired. For many of you supporting Cox as the best manager in the history of the world, he’s pretty much all you’ve ever known. You’re comfortable with him because he skippered the team during its glory years. But those years were far and away due more to the talent Cox coached than to Cox himself. Cox is a good manager but I can’t say he’s a great manager . . . not with his postseason record.
M45
August 20th, 2009
1:04 pm
Its clear to me that this bullpen has shown signs of fatigue.Soriano was the most consistant guy in the bullpen and probably the best reliever the braves have.They need maybe another long reliever to burn some innings like a Kawakami when Hudson gets back.The night Lowe just completly lost it, that would of been a good time to bring in a long releiver.Cox sometimes leave pitchers in the game to burn instead of getting them out of there when they struggle sometimes I beleive he hesitates to go to a guy in the bullpen maybe because a little lack of confidence in some of the guys in the pen.
Charlie
August 20th, 2009
1:08 pm
Dumbest question you ever asked. Name one pitcher who stunk with the braves who went on to be better else where. Jason Marquis might be one, but he was OK here, and there was no room for to keep him on the staff at the time to develop. Maybe Wainwright, but again, never really go the chance. There are so many washed up pitchers who were who re-started their careers I can’t begin to count.
Bleu_Bayou42
August 20th, 2009
1:08 pm
MB,
My question is, would the Umps have giving Medlin all the time he needed to warm up if Cox would have pulled Lowe out earlier in the that 4th inning because of his finger/hand?
I just hate to lose and that game Tuesday night with Lowe just seemed like deja vu to me with his unfathomable loyalty to his veteran starting pitchers. Lowe was obviously hurt (blister/callus) on his hand in the 4th.
Now after the game, Bobby Cox did make a good point that he was hoping to get that ground ball from his sinker pitcher, but it just didn’t happen, not to mention Lowe was coming up to bat at the top of the 5th as well.
matches
August 20th, 2009
1:09 pm
I assumed Soriano went in last night so Bobby/ Roger could get a look at him in a non-pressure situation. The guy’s been complaining of pain and hasn’t pitched in a week – do you really want his first game back to be a high-pressure one-run game?
Bleu_Bayou42
August 20th, 2009
1:10 pm
Charlie< Jason Schmidt
Mark Bradley
August 20th, 2009
1:13 pm
Peric asked where the Braves ranked in complete games. The answer is, in a seven-way tie for last among the 30 big-league clubs — with one CG.
gdubber
August 20th, 2009
1:13 pm
Jason Schmidt has not done much without Barry’s cream.
Peter Moylan
August 20th, 2009
1:15 pm
What was it that Yank football player Herschel Walker used to say, “The ball isn’t heavy.”
Stuart
August 20th, 2009
1:25 pm
Mark,
Nice post but you forgot one thing… the Braves were trying to win games. Go back and run numbers for how many times relievers (the good ones, not the guys who we crossed our fingers and prayed would get outs when we needed them) came in because Braves were down and needing a bat at a specific time.
Quality starts are fantastic and often are during 1-0 or 1-2 ballgames. When the Braves were basrely ahead or trailing by only one run. We have no offense for much of a season. This year that proved true for the first half. I bet that is when most of these relievers logged their appearances.
Also, why can’t a reliever come in a pitch 12 -25 pitches 4 times a week. How fragile are these guys? How tired are they? Starters pitch 70 -90 innings once every 3-4 days.
I believe you are right to defend and right to question. There are many reasons why the Braves are successful and are often limited by Bobby Cox. It is hard to boil them down to only managing the relievers. What about motivating your players to act with urgency?… getting them to do the fundamentals (aka bunt successfully)?
DawgDad
August 20th, 2009
1:28 pm
Hopefully Bobby Cox is too busy managing the team to read these comments. Consider for a moment who would have pitched all those innings if the arms weren’t falling off our top relievers. JoJo Reyes, et. al.? Sure, we could have a fresh bullpen and be 16 games back instead of 6. The fact is, the Braves bullpen is performing much better this season that most analysts predicted. It has done so with a collection of tired, re-habbed arms, and it’s overcome the loss of Bennett’s innings. In recent years past depth AND the closer were both issues. We are seeing a much improved bullpen on both counts. Thank you, Bobby, and thank you Frank.
9thStBoy
August 20th, 2009
1:36 pm
Can anybody proffer a legitimate reason for Soriano appearing in last night’s game?
I’ve tried, but can’t think of one, given the fact that the bullpen was full of living breathing bodies.
Phil
August 20th, 2009
1:40 pm
Soriano was the game because Cox cannot manage a pitching staff. That is also the answer to the question in this blog.
Bleu_Bayou42
August 20th, 2009
1:40 pm
MB,
RE: Tuesday’s night game
Would the Umps have giving Medlin all the time he needed to warm up if Cox would have pulled Lowe out earlier in the that 4th inning because of his finger/hand?
Phil
August 20th, 2009
1:42 pm
Umps should have given Medlin all the time he needed, Lowe got hit with a line drive. I don’t see why they wouldn’t have.
Brian
August 20th, 2009
1:43 pm
9thStBoy…how about because Soriano had the freshest arm, only appearing once in the last 10 days?
Mark, you answered Peric, but what about my question: Do you have any evidence that Cox “wears his relievers to a frazzle”? Specifically, how do you reconcile that with your immediately following statement that: “At no other time in this decade have the Braves had more than one reliever among the top 10 in games.”?
Mark Bradley
August 20th, 2009
1:44 pm
The answer to the Medlen question, I believe, would be yes. He’d have gotten all the time he required.
Mark Bradley
August 20th, 2009
1:45 pm
Blaine Boyer would be one example, Brian. And I believe Mr. Moylan just came off arm surgery and still has appeared in 65 games.
Alan
August 20th, 2009
1:48 pm
He thru the game away the other night when Lowe was pitching, it was quite obvious that Lowe had a problem with his thum and then took a shot to the glove hand, anyone watching the game could see that, never fear we were holding off to the end of the inning so we didn’t waste a bat, 9 runs later we wasted a bat. He only has 4 in the bullpen that he uses so why not send the others down so they can get some work in. BETTER YET, LET THE PITCHING COACH MAKE THE CALLS, CAN’T BE ANY WORSE.
Coach (2010 or Bust)
August 20th, 2009
1:51 pm
Bingo Bradley, you read my mind.
Ask yourself this question. Why did the bullpen’s of 2006-07 and 08 post inning totals of 512, 539 and 554…the three highest workloads in Atlanta Braves history?
And it started after Leo Mazzone left following the 2005 season.
The answer has already been provided thanks to my friend Mark Bradley.
Coach (2010 or Bust)
August 20th, 2009
1:53 pm
Brian wrote: Mark, you answered Peric, but what about my question: Do you have any evidence that Cox “wears his relievers to a frazzle”?
Read my post at 1:51 and weep.
trey
August 20th, 2009
1:57 pm
dap01 its Moylan not Moyland. Also, Bruce it is Medlen not Medlin.
trey
August 20th, 2009
1:59 pm
Bleu_Bayou42 and Phil, it is Medlen with two e’s and not an i.
Skeezix
August 20th, 2009
1:59 pm
I am usually not critical of Cox as I consider him to be one of the best ever—but leaving Lowe in as long as he did was perplexing. It was so obvious that, for whatever reason, Lowe didn’t have it in that 4th inning.
Henry V111
August 20th, 2009
2:00 pm
You cannot be very good with starters and terrible with the Bullpen. The Starters were all very good and made him look good by their records.
He is terrible, as proven by one WS win.
NO MORE BOBBY
August 20th, 2009
2:02 pm
I think its funny how people who defend Bobby sound like they are taking up for their grandfather. This is baseball dorks!! Where you are paid to win!! If you want to feel all warm and fuzzy inside over an old man, go hug your Dad. Its time we had someone running the show again with some fire and passion. Not that reminds us of going home for Christmas.
CHANGE IS COMING!!!!
Phil
August 20th, 2009
2:03 pm
OK trey, thanks for the spelling lesson. I think you knew who we were talking about though.
Coop
August 20th, 2009
2:04 pm
Haven’t always agreed with Cox’s pitching decisions. But I’v never managed, been to the playoffs, or wown a world series. However bad Cox is, I’ll take him. He’s a hell of a lot better than any other manager we’ve ever had. the day he passess, they’ll say Bobby Cox, managed probably the most dominant pitching staff in the history of the game. I just can’t follow that up with, “yeah, but he didn’t know squat about relievers”.
trey
August 20th, 2009
2:04 pm
Sorry, not trying to be mean I just don’t like seeing all the misspellings of players names that we see play every day. The exception would be for Saltalamacchia since his name is so long.
Brian
August 20th, 2009
2:05 pm
I’ll maybe give you Blaine Boyer, although there still isn’t tangible evidence that Cox’s use of him hurt him. Correlation does not equal causation. I see no evidence that the way Moylan is being used is harming him. There was an article here in the past week saying how he’s pretty confident in pitching just about every day.
trey
August 20th, 2009
2:05 pm
Well when Salty did play for the Braves.
Mr. A
August 20th, 2009
2:07 pm
It is easy to be a great Manager when you have a great pitching staff consisting of three Hall of Famers! However, since we have had average pitchers he has been at best a Average Manager.
Hard as it is to say…. it might be time to move on!
submariner
August 20th, 2009
2:07 pm
Let’s talk about hitters. If the offense would go out there consistantly scoring runs, nobody would care about the starters or the bullpen. The reality is that they’ve, for the most part, not been blown out of too many games. Which means that a majority of the loses have come, yet again, by 1 or 2 runs. You have to manage both side of the ball. It took Cox half a season, and possibly a chance at the playoffs, to realize that!
trey
August 20th, 2009
2:07 pm
I heard that about Moylan, too. Moylan may be confident about pitching every day but he still needs to rest. Smoltz is still confident that he is still dominating and he may be but confidence sometimes gets the best of players, of course Moylan is doing pretty well and Smoltz may not want to let go of the past, of course Smoltz may still have his stuff if given the opportunity to show it.
trey
August 20th, 2009
2:14 pm
I like Bobby Cox, but I too wonder why he leaves pitchers in too long if they struggle but takes them out too soon if they are doing well.
Bleu_Bayou42
August 20th, 2009
2:16 pm
I still have nightmare’s of Ray King coming into the game. You might as well finish off your beer and head to bed because the game was over as soon as that joker got in the game.
matches
August 20th, 2009
2:17 pm
Boyer almost certainly was overused in 2008 (as was Will Ohman), and both noticeably wore down as the season went on. Not really sure what other options Bobby had, though, given our starters weren’t pitching deep into games and Soriano, Gonzalez, and Moylan were all hurt for long periods of time.
This year Moylan and Gonzalez seem to be holding up fine – not sure about Soriano. There’s no magic number of appearances after which someone’s arm falls off – everyone’s arm is different and there are other factors to consider such as # of innings pitched, # of pitches thrown.
For better or for worse, 6-inning starts have become the standard, and often the goal, in modern baseball. Starter gets to 100 pitches – he’s out of the game. So you need at least three innings from the pen most nights. Most of the guys at the back end of the pen are conditioned to only throw 1 inning at a time, and if they throw more than that they’re probably unavailable the next day. So on a night like last night – big lead, starter gone after 6 – do you throw 1 guy for three innings in relief? The only guy in our pen really equipped to do that is Medlen and he pitched an extended outing the night before. Could Acosta or Logan go 2 innings? Yeah, probably, I guess. But most likely you’re going to need 4 pitchers to finish the game, and if you’re using 4-5 pitchers virtually every night, guys are going to pile up appearances.
Other than pushing relievers for two-inning outings or leaving the starters in longer, I’m not sure what Bobby can reasonably do. If he lets relievers go two innings that creates a whole new fatigue issue, and if he lets the starters throw 115-120 pitches we’ll all be griping that he’s overusing *them*. I hate hate hate this age of specialization and pitch counts, but here we are.
Escobar Rocks
August 20th, 2009
2:18 pm
I agree. Cox does an ok job with his starters, except of course for the Lowe fiasco on Tues. night. But he is just terrible with the bullpen. Moylan, O’Flaherty, Gonzalez, and Soriano are grossly overused while Medlen, Acosta, and Logan get so little use that they are sometimes ineffective when called on.
JF McNamara
August 20th, 2009
2:21 pm
If by constantly over pitching his relievers, shortening their careers and burning them out before the playoffs, then yes. He handles them brilliantly.
AK
August 20th, 2009
2:21 pm
At what point does it become the players responsibility to tell the coach he needs a day or 2 off? I agree Cox mishandles the relievers (and at times the starters) but I would think they should know if/when they can go.
Dan Kolb's Mom
August 20th, 2009
2:23 pm
I am probably the biggest Bobby Cox fan you will find, and even I have to admit some of the decisions made this year, particularly those regarding relief pitchers, have left me somewhat doubtful about his managerial skills. I love Bobby, and obviously the players do as well, but at some point you have to lend more consideration to those who can make the decisions that are simply going to win baseball games,
trey
August 20th, 2009
2:23 pm
I do respect Cox as a manger but I do wonder why he will over use a pitcher that is doing poorly but will under use a pitcher who is pitching well.
BUZZ
August 20th, 2009
2:29 pm
They must pay you by the word. That was the most bloated bit of quasi-journalism I ever scanned.
Conciseness is the heart of journalism, so I will merely say … Cox does not handle pitchers well … he overuses his best pitchers and we tend to pay the price late in the season.
If Cox had a middling pitching staff, he would never have won all those division titles. You could have let Maddux fill out the lineup card from 1993-2003 and the results would have been about the same or better.
Dan Kolb's Mom
August 20th, 2009
2:34 pm
Point in case- I have a 12-year-old potbellied pig named Templeton. He was kicked in the head by a mule when he was a piglet, and subsequently had some mental development issues. He cant walk in a straight line, falls asleep while eating, runs in circles, etc. Now, during the Phillies series, when Cox brought in Soriano to face Howard, i had just started to doze off when suddenly Templeton screams “WHY THE HELL IS A FASTBALL THROWING RIGHTY IN TO FACE A LEFT-HANDED POWER HITTER?!”
Now, you can imagine my initial shock as I had to suddenly register the fact that my mentally inept swine had suddenly discovered the power not only to verbally converse with humans, but to also understand a bit of baseball strategy. As I struggled to get a handle on the situation, I realized the truth in Templeton’s logic, and looked up just in time to see Howard’s homerun ball entering the lower stratosphere as it rocketed towards left center. Before I could stop him, Templeton screamed again. “
trey
August 20th, 2009
2:34 pm
Gonzalez does seem to be getting into jams almost every game he pitches, but he also seems to get out of them.
All I'm Saying Is...
August 20th, 2009
2:35 pm
“I wish I understood how a staff tied for the big-league lead in quality starts — a pitcher works at least six innings while yielding three or fewer runs — can also have three relievers rank in the top five among big-leaguers in appearances.”
The answer is simple: Appearances is an incorrect statistic to use in order to determine whether a reliever has been ‘over-used’ (whatever that means—and I’m being serious. What does overused mean for a reliever as they are all different and each appearance is different).
Using Appearances as you measuring stick for relievers is akin to using Games Started to determine how heavily a starting pitcher has been used. Neither makes any sense.
For both, you need to look at Innings Pitched and then compare their total to that of other bullpen staffs in order to best determine whether a manager has over-done it or has been forced to do it (which can occur if your starters cannot give you seven complete innings or some Complete Games — which the Braves apparently rank last in)
I have neither the time (have to keep my day job) nor access to Researchers (like Bradley) nor am I paid to contribute posts (like certain AJ/C staffers) so I cannot run down the answer but if you are using incorrect statistics to start with, then its easy to draw incorrect conclusions.
LET’S GO BRAVES!
Dan Kolb's Mom
August 20th, 2009
2:36 pm
dammit. my comment posted prematurely for some reason. i’m not finishing my story unless someone requests it. it ends badly, anyway.
Brian
August 20th, 2009
2:37 pm
I love when people say things like: “If Cox had a middling pitching staff, he would never have won all those division titles.”
Well, ya think? What manager does win a bunch of division titles with a middling pitching staff? How many WS did Casey Stengel win when he didn’t have four or five Hall-of-Famers? That would be zero. Surely Joe Torre would have won four World Series with Neifi Perez as his shortstop and Dan Kolb as his closer.
lee
August 20th, 2009
2:37 pm
ive watched several games where the starting pitching was rolling, and cox took them out and put in relievers in and then things fell apart!! so i do not think that Cox can handle the starters corectly either. i think he is allergic to a complete game. i can not even remember when an atlanta pitcher pitched a complete game this year!!
Mark Bradley
August 20th, 2009
2:39 pm
For a reliever, appearances is a more valid stat than innings pitched.
trey
August 20th, 2009
2:40 pm
I hope Hudson comes back and is just as dominate as before and then we can move Lowe or Kawakami into the bullpen. Don’t get me wrong Lowe is a good pitcher but not the ace that we expected and he would make a great reliever, again. Also, Kawakami gives you a few good innings before wearing out and he would do well in the bullpen.
Mark Bradley
August 20th, 2009
2:40 pm
Because if you’re a reliever and you work a lot of innings, you know what that makes you? A guy who never pitches in close games. A middle reliever, in sum.
Brian
August 20th, 2009
2:42 pm
All I’m Saying is…to partly answer your question:
Among pitchers that have not started a game this year, Mike Gonzalez is 22nd in innings pitched, Soriano is 36th, Moylan is 47th, and O’Flaherty is 110th.
Hillbilly Deluxe
August 20th, 2009
2:42 pm
Here’s an interesting article with Nolan Ryan’s take on pitch counts.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/columnist/thorne/2009-04-26-thorne-column_N.htm
Dan Kolb’s Mom
I’m dying to know how things turned out with Templeton. Is he by any chance named for the shortstop Garry Templeton (who was traded for Ozzie Smith)? Has he been to obedience school and if so was he in the gifted program?
Bill
August 20th, 2009
2:44 pm
Someone has to explain to me why good starting pitchers like the Braves have can’t pitch complete games? The old Braves like Warren Spahn, Johnny Sain, Phil Niekro, etc. never seemed to have a problem going nine innings or more. And most of them were back on the mound three games later!
What is the current theory that they must come out of the game when they throw a 100 to 110 pitches? If they take care of their arms between games, this should be no problem.
My ‘big’ problem with Bobby Cox in his use of relief pitchers has always been his tendency to favor certain players. It doesn’t make any differance to him whether they’re pitching good or bad. Soriano is tired. Why did he use him last night? He’s lost two games in his last five appearances. Give him a rest.
There is no way the Braves are going to contend for the playoffs with their bullpen. It’s halfway through August and it is way overused.
Brian
August 20th, 2009
2:46 pm
Bill, you said “Soriano is tired”. Did you talk to him on the phone or something? How did you know he was tired? He’d only pitched once in the last ten days, and pitched well in his inning last night.
Shawon
August 20th, 2009
2:48 pm
This has ALWAYS been Cox’s m/o (overuse/misues of the bullpen). I remember thinking back in the day that we needed a sniper in the stands in case he even so much as looked in the direction of Greg McMicheal or Brad Cloontz again.
ijudgenot
August 20th, 2009
2:48 pm
The fact that this topic is finally being discussed is good news for the Braves and their fans. Someone has finally hollored out “the Emporer has on no clothes” Cox is what he is, a by the book manager. He does not spend his time late at night thinking about how he can be innovative tomorrow to give his team a chance to win. He would much rather send the same 8 out on the field and have the starting rotation take its turn with the same setup guy and closer coming in in the 8th and 9th respectively. He will be a HOF manager because of his longevity and number of wins(3d all time). To me he is a cross between the 2 Dodger back-to-back HOF managers Walt Alston and Tommy Lassorda. Alston was blessed with a pitching ataff of Koufax, Drysdale and company. Like Cox had with Smoltz, Glavine and Maddox, and he did not like changing the rotation or starting lineup like Cox. He was a by the book manager. Lasorda was the consistant rah rah guy, always cheering his team on like Cox. Lassorda however was also innovative. He would try different things to try to give his team the edge or the appearance of an edge(managing and coaching from 3rd base). He would also manage by feel, something Cox would not do. Putting Kirk Gibson in as a pinch hitter against Eckersly in the World Series, was pure genious. Despite knowing that even if Gibson got a line drive hit to right, he probably would have been thrown out at first because he could not run at all.That was a feel for the moment at hand and what it could do to give his team a kick in the butt to get them going. How many of us think that Cox would have sent a gimpy kneed Chipper up to the plate grimaacing with every swing? Nope, it would have been by the book. With Norton making the final swing for the Braves to determine the teams destiny.
jwyatt15
August 20th, 2009
2:49 pm
With the exception of Lowe the other night I think Bobby has been too quick to pull some of the starters this year for sure. We should have A LOT more complete games than the what, one, we have? Of course we more often than not need a pinch hit late int he game in the pitchers spot.
Mac
August 20th, 2009
2:50 pm
This is why the AJC should NOT switch to a register-to-comment method. Why stifle genius? This poster could use many comic names to weave even more hilarity.
Dan Kolb’s Mom
August 20th, 2009
2:34 pm
Point in case- I have a 12-year-old potbellied pig named Templeton. He was kicked in the head by a mule when he was a piglet, and subsequently had some mental development issues. He cant walk in a straight line, falls asleep while eating, runs in circles, etc. Now, during the Phillies series, when Cox brought in Soriano to face Howard, i had just started to doze off when suddenly Templeton screams “WHY THE HELL IS A FASTBALL THROWING RIGHTY IN TO FACE A LEFT-HANDED POWER HITTER?!”
Now, you can imagine my initial shock as I had to suddenly register the fact that my mentally inept swine had suddenly discovered the power not only to verbally converse with humans, but to also understand a bit of baseball strategy. As I struggled to get a handle on the situation, I realized the truth in Templeton’s logic, and looked up just in time to see Howard’s homerun ball entering the lower stratosphere as it rocketed towards left center. Before I could stop him, Templeton screamed again. “
trey
August 20th, 2009
2:50 pm
Kawakami is just not that effective but he does have some good outings.
Dan Kolb's Mom
August 20th, 2009
2:51 pm
sigh. Ok Hillbilly.
So, as Howard’s ball threatens to take out the space station before eventually settling down in left center, and the sound of 40,000 crushed souls and crying children begins to reverberate around Turner Field, Templeton screams “I JUST CANT TAKE THIS SH*T ANYMORE” and runs out of the house in great haste. Normally I dont approve of profanity, particularly from a farm animal, but I understood his frustration. I havent seen him since, and I was met with only ridicule and bewilderment when I proceeded to put up posters in my neighborhood reading “LOST TALKING PIG. ANSWERS TO TEMPLETON. MAY EXPRESS VULGAR DISTASTE AND/OR APPREHENSION REGARDING THE CURRENT MANAGEMENT STYLE OF THE ATLANTA BRAVES COACHING STAFF.”
trey
August 20th, 2009
2:53 pm
How many surgeries has Smoltz gone through in his career does anyone know?
All I'm Saying Is...
August 20th, 2009
2:57 pm
Appearances is the wrong statistic Bradley. I’ve seen plenty of instances where a reliever comes in, the other team sends up a differnt pinch hitter, and then the reliever delivers an Intentional Base on Balls and is taken out of the game.
By your argument, that Appearance would factor in as to whether the reliever was over-used when the only thing that happened was he had to warm up.
That (and other reasons) is why you have to use Innings Pitched.
As I typed earlier, your entire argument is wrong from the beginning is you use the wrong statistic. If you don’t believe me, why don’t you call Leo Mazzone and see what he thinks. Last time I checked he was working for one of the Atlanta area sports talk radio stations.
LET’S GO BRAVES!
Hillbilly Deluxe
August 20th, 2009
2:58 pm
Dan Kolb’s Mom
Oh well if Templeton doesn’t come home you can always get you a nice Hampshire, Duroc, or Poland-China. They’re better eating anyhow.
Brian
August 20th, 2009
2:59 pm
A lot of people are freaking out because the Braves have four players with a lot of appearances. But, as Bradley says, this is the first time this decade that the Braves have more than one pitcher in the top 10. What we are seeing is a league-wide evolution into 6-inning starters and 1-inning relievers, which drives # of appearances through the roof. Here’s some numbers to chew on:
In 1980, MLB set a new record when 49 pitchers pitched in at least 50 games in relief. They broke that record again in 1984 with 51. They proceeded to set a new single season record in 1985, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1992, 1996, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2007, when 128 pitchers pitched in 50 or more games in relief. This year, 118 pitchers are on a pace to hit 50 games in relief. That’s the way pitchers are bred to pitch these days. There’s really not much you can do about it.
As long as they’re effective (4th in bullpen ERA) and don’t get hurt, I see no problem with how Cox is using his bullpen.
Rob in Fayetteville
August 20th, 2009
3:00 pm
I agree with the first part of Bill’s comment. Whatever happened to the concept of complete games? For the record, I believe the one complete game this season – by Javier Vasquez – was an eight inning affair, as the Braves lost that game on the road.
Call me an old codger, but I long for the days when real big league pitchers tossed 300 innings and put up 15-20 complete games in a season. When the pitch count was irrelevant. When bullpens were fresh. And when Bobby Cox didn’t religiously follow the “book.” Yes, he presided over Braves teams that were either first or second in the league in complete games from 1991 to 1998.
And if you ever went up to Steve Carlton or Bob Gibson and told them a “quality start” was a six-inning, three earned run outing, they’d have punched you, and rightfully so…..
Rich
August 20th, 2009
3:02 pm
Thanks Mark – this was the point that I was trying to make yesterday.
I disagree
August 20th, 2009
3:04 pm
The mistake here is separating the starters from the relievers when talking about “handling” the staff. Though they have separate roles, the have the same responsibility and that is to get the other guys out.
You can’t say that he handles the starters correctly and then wonder why the pen is overtaxed because one works off the other. The reason why other teams don’t pitch their closers in non save situations as much is because their starters don’t come out too soon. That’s the problem. Last night the starter should’ve have gone 7 innings, if not completed the game.
The problem is the starters! 6 innings may be a quality start, but it’s an invitation to blow up the pen as we’re are now seeing Cox do once again. Remember last season he drove Boyer and Acosta into the ground. The starters need to go 7, not 6. If those guys are who they are said to be, then simply going 6, instead of 4 or 5 like last year, is not enough. They must pitch through the 7th inning.
The fewer outs left for the pen to get, the less likely it is they will be overused. But our starters have come out too soon on too many occasions and so I disagree that he has handled the starters correctly.
matches
August 20th, 2009
3:05 pm
I miss complete games too, but keep in mind we live in the OBP era. Hitters are conditioned to work counts and try to make pitchers throw lots of pitches. Add to that the fact that the strike zone is about the size of a postage stamp, and pitchers are going to more deep counts, and therefore throwing more pitches.
The Braves staff used to use 13 pitches per inning as a standard – they assumed their guys would throw an average of 13 pitches each inning. At that rate 100-105 pitches would take you well into the 8th inning. Last night Jurrjens – on a night where he was pitching pretty well – threw 96 pitches in 6 innings. I’m no huge fan of pitch counts but we cannot send guys out there regularly to throw 120+ pitches and expect them to remain healthy/ effective.
All I'm Saying Is...
August 20th, 2009
3:08 pm
Brian: Thanks for the comment and the research. Bradley: you should read his post.
As I typed before, Appearances is a misleading statistic and inappropriate. I have seen plenty of instances where a reliever is brought in, then the other team’s manager inserts a pinch hitter, which causes the reliever to be told to issue an intentional base on balls and then the reliever is removed from the game.
Using Appearances as a measuring stick would mistakenly count this as a significant event when all the reliever did was warm up.
You have to use Innings Pitched and then you compare Innings Pitched for Closers, Set Up Men, Situational Pitchers (Leftys and Rightys), and Middle Relievers (if you want) across all NL teams.
By comparing a Soriano and Gonzalez to a F-Rod and Rivera, then you might know if a Manager is ‘over-using*’ them.
So, as I typed, what we need to do is not use the wrong statistics or say that Innings Pitched is wrong because if a reliever has a lot of innings pitched then he is a middle reliever (what does that have to do with what we are talking about?) but instead tally up the innings for Closers, Set-Up Men, Lefty Situational Pitchers, Righty Situational Pitchers, and Middle Relievers if you want for every team in the NL and then see where the Braves rank and that might give you some idea of whether Bobby is actually using his non-starters too often.
(And its a whole ‘nother can of corn as to whether Bobby is being forced to use his non-starters often because his starters cannot give him seven complete innings — which I maintain is a quality start not six innings).
*Overuse of a reliever is, I still maintain, not something you can define but is only a relative term and if every team in the NL has crappy starters then all of the Managers will be forced to use their relievers and all of a sudden over-use is harder to judge.
LET’S GO BRAVES!
Charlie
August 20th, 2009
3:09 pm
Jason falls into the same catagory as Wainright and Marquis, he was young and developed, and there was not a place for him to crack the rotation. Can name many pitchers who were veterans that pitched for the braves and went on the have better seasons when they left.
Cox’s brilliance is managing poeple, now that we got to see the egos of Smoltz and Glavine, you can really appreciate the job he did all those years keeping them focused and happy.
Rob in Fayetteville
August 20th, 2009
3:11 pm
There’s a real good solution to the whole OBP era we live in, and the high pitch counts – throw strikes! Or at least utilize umpires who aren’t bound by the stupid Questec system, which really helped (along with PED’s) bring us to the offensive era we’re in now. Heck, I don’t mind Eric Gregg’s double-wide strike zone (God rest his soul) if it helps bring about some sort of edge to the pitchers, and makes the game less offense oriented….
Mark Bradley
August 20th, 2009
3:12 pm
I don’t think it’s a great secret that Marquis and Schmidt were two pitchers who didn’t take to the Mazzone method all that avidly.
Brian
August 20th, 2009
3:15 pm
Rich and I disagree…a lot of people would agree with you that pitchers should pitch longer in games, but the overwhelmingly prevailing trend is that 100 pitches is a benchmark for when a pitcher should be removed. It is likely that many of the young pitchers in baseball today have never thrown more than 130 or so pitches in a game in their life. Can you responsibly put them out there for over that amount consistently? That’s what it would take to get everyone to seven innings these days. This is not Bobby Cox’s problem. That’s just the way baseball is now.
The average innings pitched for a starter in the NL today is 5.8. In 1990 it was 6.1. In 1970 it was 6.5.
Floyd
August 20th, 2009
3:17 pm
Could the high number of appearances by Moylan, O’Flaherity and Gonzo simply be a reflection of Cox’s lack of confidence in the rest of the pen? I think so. And perhaps for good reason…the bullpen talent seems to drop off rather steeply after those three. Despite his electric stuff, Acosta gets knocked around quite a bit out there. Bennett was horrid. Logan inexperienced. Medlen clearly a middle reliever. It’s too late now, obviously, but the pen could use another arm. Somebody who can reliably eat some innings would be ideal.
Rich
August 20th, 2009
3:21 pm
Brian, I agree with you on the pitch count. 100 pitches seems to be the bench mark and if you get 6 innings out of a starter then you are getting the best you can hope for. By and large, the Braves get 6 innings out of their starters, q quality start. Which leaves 3 innings to the bullpen, that is what the bullpen is for. However, when you have 4 guys in the bullpen that are among the league leaders and 3 guys whose appearances are few and far between there is a disparity in the use of the relievers.
gene garbage
August 20th, 2009
3:22 pm
i wouldn’t do it any other way. last nite, he could’ve used a few more pitchers in my mind. the ones who need the work, that is, and soriano needs it, badly….guys who only pitch every 3-4 days get rusty. they simply need the work to be sharp when called upon. sure they’re times when i was yelling at the tv to get someone outta there, but by and far, he does just fine. it was a couple nites ago,when gonzo pitched the 8th, i thought he should’ve come in to face howard in the 9th, but didn’t. i did disagree with that decision, but soriano had been getting the job done. cox does give his players every chance to prove themselves, and you can’t fault that. i think we all want every chance to prove ourselves..
and for some guys who come in to face one, maybe two batters, they CAN’T get worn down.. i don’t care what you say…
Brian
August 20th, 2009
3:23 pm
matches has a great point as well. Pitchers throw more pitches now than ever. Strikeout rates have never been higher. Walk rates are higher than historical averages. Pitchers are pitching 3.8 pitches per plate appearance in the NL in 2009. That’s 12 pitches for a 1-2-3 inning, 16 if you have a good inning with one baserunner. 9 innings with just one baserunner each inning (an excellent 1.00 WHIP) would get you to 144 pitches at that rate. That rate of pitches per plate appearance just keeps on going up every year.
matches
August 20th, 2009
3:23 pm
Floyd, this year’s team has a very good pitching staff and a mediocre lineup. Thus we tend to have lots of low-scoring games, and those games tend to be close late. It’s natural that the best relievers will be called upon more often in those situations, becuase geez who wants Acosta out there if the outcome’s in doubt? Personally I’d like to see Logan and/or Medlen in more of those spots but it’s not surprising to me that we’re going with our best guys with games on the line. I’m all about having guys who can eat innings but I’d rather they gorge themselves on games where the outcome is already decided.
strom
August 20th, 2009
3:24 pm
Bobby is still beating his old lady and pissing in his pants.
Russell
August 20th, 2009
3:25 pm
You can’t say that the health of the rotation this year is because of Cox. The only pitcher that ever played for Cox before this season was Jurrjens. Lowe, Vazquez, Kawakami, Hanson, all were playing for different managers in the past years who managed them all differently. Lowe & Vasquez have a history of durability. The only Braves starter that is on the DL is Hudson, and he’s the only one that Cox has managed for any period of time.
Starring Kam Fong as Chin Ho
August 20th, 2009
3:25 pm
Maybe Cox burns up the same 2 or 3 relievers because the bullpen depth is atrocious and he is going with the best available, ie trying to win the game. That said, to me a quality start means 7 innings, not 6 and not 6 2/3. And righty against righty is fine every now and then, burning 3 pitchers in an inning is not bullpen management, it’s a recipe for a blown up pen
Hillbilly Deluxe
August 20th, 2009
3:27 pm
I used to like the way Lee Weyer umpired. He’d take his foot and run his toe around the outer edge of the plate. Anything that came over that mark was a strike. Pitchers didn’t nibble and hitters came up hacking. The games zipped right along and it had no effect on the quality of the baseball played.
Admittedly baseball has become stat crazy but the offensive statistic I like is runs produced, (runs scored + rbi’s) – home runs. I think that one shows how you helped your team.
Hillbilly Deluxe
August 20th, 2009
3:32 pm
According to this article (can’t vouch for the accuracy), pitch counts per game have between 142 and 149 for 60 years.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/what-pitch-counts-hath-wrought/
Hillbilly Deluxe
August 20th, 2009
3:32 pm
*have been
I disagree
August 20th, 2009
3:33 pm
Brian, I’m not saying I agree with Nolan Ryan’s (supposed) elimination of pitch counts, but I do agree with his demand that the starters prepare themselves to go deep into ball games, if not finish them.
Bobby, Roger and the organization should make it clear that the expectation is for starters to go 7 innings or more. 6 innings is “ok”, and some days you might only have 5 in you, but anything less than 7 isn’t fully meeting our expectations, especially starters 1-4. I don’t mind “appearances” if it’s just to get 1 guy out here and there. But this bringing late-inning specialists into games with better than a 4-run lead is pure madness and tells me that Bobby and Roger are trying to get by with 1/2 a pen.
Start telling pitchers that the way to big money is 7or more innings, and they’ll deliver. But now people have set an artificial 100 limit that the guy knows he’ll come out regardless of what is happening in the game. I believe that great organizations set high standards and pay those who meet them. The Braves only expect 100 pitches and that’s all they get, meanwhile the relievers are in and out of surgery and they are being paid more too.
We seem to be ok with “saving the starters”, how about more balance and thinking about how we can “save the pen” too? As we are now into the dog days, it’s time fort those starters to go for it. If we make the playoffs, they aren’t going to go more than 6 innings anyway, so your pen best not be overworked during the season.
Fresh starters, stale relievers is not a good recipe for making it to, or succeeding in the postseason.
Brian
August 20th, 2009
3:35 pm
Hillbilly Deluxe, the folks over at Hardball Times are pretty smart, but when I look at how much higher strikeout and walk rates are, and see the jump in pitches/PA just since 1990, that surprises me. I wonder if the number of average pitches has gone up significantly since the last year they studied, which was 2003.
Peter
August 20th, 2009
3:37 pm
Bobby is old and old fashion………put a fork in it…….let him go……..
We need a team with true leadership !
Russell
August 20th, 2009
3:41 pm
Anyone remember the 1st game of the season in Philadelphia when Lowe was pitching lights out for eight innings and then got yanked before the ninth? He would’ve had a complete game shutout to start the season and his Braves career, but no! Cox had to pull him! I agree with “I disagree” that these pitch limits are ridiculous. If a guy is pitching light out, why take him out for the unknown coming out of the bullpen?
Russell
August 20th, 2009
3:43 pm
Peter – Bobby is not old-fashion, if he were, he would let his pitchers pitch complete games!
Tomy Fournier
August 20th, 2009
3:44 pm
Mr. Moron Cox is a trash…yes!!!!…he don,t know nothing about Pitchers.
NO, NO, NO
August 20th, 2009
3:46 pm
Bobby Cox single-handedly lost Tuesday night’s game against the Mets. He never seemed to realize that D. Lowe just wasn’t effective after the 3rd inning. And for it to take 10 hits and 8 runs for him to realize this is ABSOLUTELY MINDBOGGLING. Was he having some sort of episode while Lowe was getting throttled?! Should Lowe have taken himself out of the game?
Frank Wren
August 20th, 2009
3:47 pm
Well MB you went and did it. You gave the morons a forum.
I laugh when I think of what guys like Bob Gibson and Nolan Ryan would say when told that these poor baby relievers are overworked. Would be classic.
matches
August 20th, 2009
3:47 pm
HD, I’m a little skeptical that anyone could estimate pitch counts from the 50’s, or even the 70’s. I enjoyed the article but I’m just not sure such a thing can be estimated this far after the fact. I can only go by the Braves’ internal metric (which the TBS announcers used to refer to regularly) of 13 pitches per inning. That would be 117 pitches over a typical nine-inning game – and that was in the 90’s. Maybe our staff was more efficient than most (we did have Maddux after all), but 30 pitches-per-game more efficient? Seems very questionable.
Angus
August 20th, 2009
3:52 pm
A stat regarding Lowe’s debacle: regardless of the situation this year, a team’s winning pct when having to pull their starter before the end of 4: .226.
I wouldn’t jump to too many conclusions based on that game – it’s a no-win situation for the manager. And, there’s not telling how it affects the staff for the next couple of days.
All I'm Saying Is...
August 20th, 2009
3:52 pm
Below is what I can pull together (in less than an hour by the way, Bradley, so please next team do your homework) from MLB.com regarding Closers and Innings Pitched for the NL using players designated as Closers per MLB.com.
From it you can tell that out of 16 Closers not on his team, Gonzo has pitched more innings versus other Closers in the NL than all except one. For Soriano, out of 16 Closers not on his team, Soriano has pitched more innings versus other Closers than four.
This result would appear to support the notion that among Closers in the NL that Bobby has heavily used Gonzo and Soriano. Why might this be the case is the more interesting question to me.
Is this because they perform better with regular work (i.e. Soriano pitched last night to get some work in), because the set-up men are not doing their job, because Bobby is aggressive in trying to win games (isn’t — win games — that what we pay BC to do?), or is it because BC flat out ‘over-uses’ them?
Pitcher /Games /Innings Pitched/ Saves /Save Opportunities
1) Hoffman 36 35.0 26 28 (Milw)
2) MacDougal 39 37.0 13 14 (Nats)
3) Valverde 36 37.0 17 21 (Hous)
4) Capps 44 40.1 22 25 (Pitts)
5) Lidge 49 43.2 23 31 (Philly)
6) Cordero 47 47.0 25 26 (Cincy)
7) Franklin 48 47.2 31 33 (STL)
9) Bell 47 48.2 30 32 (SD)
10) Street 53 50.0 31 32 (Colo)
11) Nunez 57 52.1 13 17 (FLA)
12) Soriano 54 54.0 17 20 (ATL)
13) F-Rod 54 55.0 26 31 (Mets)
14) Wilson 52 55.2 30 36 (SF)
15) Broxton 53 56.0 26 31 (L.A.)
16) Gonzo 60 56.0 9 14 (ATL)
17) Marmol 61 56.1 4 8 (Cubs)
chas
August 20th, 2009
3:53 pm
Definitely agree. I feel like Cox in the past did not have a short enough leash on his starters and now he has too short a leash. That is crazy that we are tied for last in complete games. Soriano and Gonzalez need more rest no doubt and I would like to see some of these relievers pitch multiple innings one night and then have a couple of days rest after that. I never have like the model of having a 7th inning pitcher followed by and 8th inning pitcher followed by your closer. It seems likely that at least one of the three relievers will have an off night and cost you the game potentially. Other than that I think Cox is a great manager.
Russell
August 20th, 2009
3:57 pm
Everybody is just mad because we don’t have Maddux, Glavine, & Smoltz in their prime to trot out there every day. We were all spoiled by the unparalled and unsustainable success of the pitching staff of the 90’s. We should have treasured it more while it lasted. It was always a shame that the Braves had some of the best teams in baseball during that run, but they couldn’t even sell out playoff games!! Everyone in Atlanta took the Braves for granted, and now they want to whine and complain because we don’t win 100 games every year.
Freddie G
August 20th, 2009
3:59 pm
Had Bobby been any place else he would have been fired long ago, but here the management knows that fans settle for anything, and so winning the division 14 times was paramount to winning the WS. There is a fellow now on 680 who was the Braves pitching coach, who benefited from the brilliance of Maddux, Glavine, Avery and Smoltz, who stated recently on 680 that winning 4 division titles was better than winning 1 WS. How stupid and ridiculous that sounds, but it tells us he was just a yes man to Bobby and would never make any meaningful suggestion to Bobby with regards to pitching changes etc. The great players coming through here have covered his weaknesses, and had it not been for that his record would have been awful. Frank Wren will not fire him because of that record, and the public outcry that it would cause, so we can only hope that he will walk away gracefully, so we can get Freddy Gonzalez here or another Manager who knows how to manage.
All I'm Saying Is...
August 20th, 2009
4:00 pm
As I have typed, this is a hard thing to figure out: whether a reliever has been over-used by a Manager. With Closers, its even more thorny. F-Rod has 55 Innings Pitched in 54 Appearances and has 5 Blown Saves (but one was due to his second baseman dropping a pop up, right?). You might note that the Closer with the most Blown Saves (Lidge with
is also lightly used (ranking #5 from the bottom in Innings Pitched). Street has one blown save in 32 attempts which is fantastic and has pitched 50.0 innings which is four fewer innings than Soriano and six fewer innings than Gonzo. What does this mean?
jake
August 20th, 2009
4:03 pm
No problem with Cox on starters, but he’s terrible with relievers. Could be a function of age. You know, in a body, they say the legs go first, etc? Well, in this manager, it’s a tendency to over-simplify…to settle on a few relievers and ride them til they’re exhausted, like Pony Express horses. He is an old school manager who lacks intuition and seat-of-the-pants feel for a game.
Frank Wren
August 20th, 2009
4:07 pm
Listen the Braves have great starting pitching and a lousy offense most of the year right?
That means your gonna be in tight games all the time right?
That means you are gonna use the same 3 or 4 good relievers over and over and over in tight games right?
Right
Hillbilly Deluxe
August 20th, 2009
4:08 pm
Brian @ 3:35
Don’t know about the statistic since 2003. Like I said I couldn’t vouch for the validity of it but thought it was interesting. And Nolan Ryan pitched over 200 innings something like 14 times if memory serves. I remember when closers (Fingers, Sutter, etc) would routinely pitch 2 or 3 innings in relief. If the game was on the line they were expected to handle it. I don’t think all the specialization has necessarily been a good thing.
I’ve been watching baseball since the early 60’s and the calling of balls and strikes is more erratic now than I think at anytime I’ve been watching. I don’t know how you would factor that in but it surely has an effect on the game.
I’ve also noticed that closers seem to burn out at a faster rate now than they used to. With a couple notable exceptions, they have a couple hot years and then they’re done. They’re sort of like the bomb disposal guys during the London Blitz; very short life spans.
Paul In Richmond
August 20th, 2009
4:10 pm
Please stop it with the “tired arm” stuff. This is baseball. These guys are professional athletes. As a reliever they may pitch 20 pitches. Stop acting like that makes them gasp for gatorade or in need of a vacation. It doesn’t.
Bobby is excellent with his pitchers. He is simply overmanaging because his offense stinks. We have few .300 hitters and no HR threat and Bobby doesnt know what to do about that so he shuffles pitchers.
I would prefer that he not shuffle lineups and relievers. Just put a TEAM out on the field and inspire them to produce. [He left Andruw and Frenchy in key spots in the lineup for entire years when they sucked - yet he shuffles Diaz and Prado and others with each full moon]
This team played well enough for post season and then lost because a collection of players is not a team.
J. Evans
August 20th, 2009
4:11 pm
Mr. Bradley, you may have answered why the Atlanta National League Baseball club only won one title during its best years, when it could have won at least two more. We have all pondered this question for a long-while.
Freddie G
August 20th, 2009
4:16 pm
Mark:
How can you say Bobby is better than any other Manager the Braves ever had? He may have the best record of any previous Braves Manager, but those Managers managed at a time when the Braves never made the effort to field talent at the level they are now doing. We are not sure what Joe Torre would have done if the Braves gave him the talent back in the early 1980’s like Bobby received when JS became the GM. The previous Atlanta Braves Managers were not given the talent on the level of the other NL teams, and so it is hard to make the comparison.
Smart Jay
August 20th, 2009
4:22 pm
Mark – how about something important. What’s Prado’s deal?
Frank Wren
August 20th, 2009
4:26 pm
The Braves have had ONE
FREAKIN ONE Reliever lead the leaugue in appearances since 1967
Brad Clontz in ‘96
Do you guys even bother looking at the stats?
Frank Wren
August 20th, 2009
4:28 pm
Steve Kilne led the league three straight years from ‘99 through ‘01
Does that make LaRussa and idiot?
Angus
August 20th, 2009
4:45 pm
Hey Mark,
I’m trying to understand your BC criticism, but can’t – just like Brian @ 11:42.
Was your comment “he wears his relievers to a frazzle without cause” a career or single season (2009) indictment?
Sounds like you we’re trying to make a career judgment on BC, but then, in the very next sentence you rebuke that argument (”at no other time in this decade have the Braves had more than one reliever among the top 10 in games”).
So which is it?
Skeezix
August 20th, 2009
4:59 pm
1. Truth is, I’m really mad about that 4th inning Lowe meltdown because then my wife got to take over the remote and she turned the TV to one of those Hallmark movies again.
2. Back when, I use to wake up in the middle of the night cause I dreamt Bobby had called ‘Reeksma’ from the pen. Man, no one could blow a lead quicker than ‘Reeksma’.
Kyle
August 20th, 2009
5:47 pm
I never understood the love for Jeff Bennett. I know he knows more about the game than me but even I would never have put that guy out there in a close game. I don’t have anything against Roger personally but Leo needs to be asked back as pitching coach and I’m sure he would be there in uniform before the question was even completed.
Freddie G
August 20th, 2009
5:50 pm
All I’M Saying:
Regarding your 2:57 post, have you considered the number of pitches the reliever throws in the Bullpen to warm up prior to coming in the game, and also the fact that a reliever will get up more than once in a game. I am not sure that is considered in compilig the stats as to number of appearances, but it should be noted that even if the reliever did not throw a pitch in the game it adds to the wear.
Dawgdad
August 20th, 2009
5:54 pm
Besides Boyer, Clontz,and others mentioned, you have to throw in Ground Ball Grabowski and Greg McMichael. They seemed to pitch every game for about two years until their arms fell off.
Gary Petersen
August 20th, 2009
6:05 pm
Leaving LOWE in the game was unreal…..absolute stupidity…..awful…..to let a game get away like that is terrible..especially with SANTANA pitching the 3rd game….Medlen was really well rested and a starter anyway…..it was asleepless nite for me..I thought it was about winning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
nique
August 20th, 2009
6:07 pm
Bravo!
Angus
August 20th, 2009
6:51 pm
Mark, seriously dude.
You made a very bold statement in “he wears his relievers to a frazzle without cause”. And I contend that that statement may only be applicable to single seasons and not BC’s career, not his MO – just like you said in your following sentence.
Please reply.
I’ll be back in about an hour.
And no, you’re not allowed breaks longer than 2 hours.
Mark Bradley
August 20th, 2009
7:21 pm
Sorry, Angus. I’ve been running around. And I do believe Cox has gotten worse, using the same three or four guys until they’re gassed. Maybe that’s a function of his starters not being as good; maybe he’s just playing matchup more. But Blaine Boyer and Peter Moylan were overused last season, and Jeff Bennett would have been this season. And I wouldn’t say Mike Gonzalez has improved with the increased workload.
Long answer short: I believe Bobby Cox’s tendencies have become more pronounced in recent seasons.
DAVEinNEPA
August 20th, 2009
7:51 pm
I’m going to cite the last game before the AS break. Tie game, bottom of the 9th against Colorado and Cox had burned through the entire bullpen save for the rookie Valdez. Valdez making his ML debut no less, and it was a recipe for disaster. Anybody remember? With the A break, he had a couple of starters who could have relieved, rather than put a rookie into that situation.
I’ve been watching this game for over 50 yrs now, and I’ve never seen a manager burn through a bullpen like this guy does.
I’ve always believed that the more relief pitchers you put into a game, the more likely it is you’ll get one who stinks on that particular day.
The thing that bothers me the most about the way Cox handles his bullpen is that he keeps making the same mistakes over and over and seemingly not learning anything from them. AND the FO let’s him continue to manage.
Sorry, but I’ve seen enough of this guy, especially since Mazzone left. I think Leo might have kept him from making a lot of dumb moves in the past but nobody on the coaching staff seems to be able to do that now.
I hope this is the last season for Cox. I don’t think I can take much more.
JASon
August 20th, 2009
9:43 pm
People, people, people. Soriano was used last night because he has been struggling like mad, and we need to get back to pitching good. Last night there was no chance he could give up the lead. Look, he’s really in trouble the way he’s been pitching the past 3 weeks. People are teeing off on his a$$. He’s been struggling to get even one out.
Now let me quickly summarize Bobby’s problem with regards to pitchers. He lets his deeply ingrained philosophy make all of his decisions for him, regardless of the particular situation. He doesn’t know how to adjust his decision-making based on a situation, like the Derek Lowe outing on Tuesday. A great many other examples can be found throughout the past 18 years, such as the ‘96 world series. By the way, great article, Mark.
sidslid
August 20th, 2009
9:48 pm
For one reason I always give Bobby the benefit of the doubt in managing a pitching staff: Game 4 of the 1995 World Series: Starts essentially a washed up Avery and goes to Borbon for the save. Gutsy and savvy. He had a 19-2 Maddux and as we all know now, one hit Tommy in the wings if Cleveland tied the series.
Angus
August 20th, 2009
9:55 pm
All due respect (and I do find your blogs/articles my favorites) but:
You seem to be backing off the “without cause” part and you’ve limited the statement to the ‘07-present.
‘07 we weren’t very good, ‘08 we were awful, and this year has been a tale of two halves (pre-Church, post-Church).
The problem I have with your statement is that I’ve heard that BC wears out the bullpen for the last decade plus. On the whole, it’s not true. But (a la Powell saying “there are WMD’s in Iraq”), it’s been said so much that everyone believes it. I expect that from myopic, knee-jerk fans that have only watched the Braves since ‘91 and have never followed another team.
I’m waiting for Soriano to finish the ninth….1 out…..2 outs…..base hit…..ball game.
Angus
August 20th, 2009
10:44 pm
Similarly, my 7 year-old and I were reading Silverstein tonight. While she believes me that the world is round, her personal experience suggests it’s flat.
Angus
August 20th, 2009
10:46 pm
Mañana.
John Spangler
August 21st, 2009
1:10 am
I think I have an interesting take on this subject. First off I think you give Bobby too much credit in managing the starting rotation. Honestly, this is not college and managers are not calling pitches. Yes pitchers work with the coaches (McDowell), but its not like Cox is out there teaching Gonzalez how to throw a 12-6 breaking ball ok. The pitchers and catchers work out a game plan with the coaching staff and then execute this plan. His job is to manage the flow of the game, which includes watching pitch counts which at the end of the day is much more important then innings. Innings are a dumb way to judge a pitchers effort. A pitcher can throw 3 pitches and get out of an inning or throw 30 and one can’t say that they are equally taxing on their arm. Now as for Lowe’s start the other night, that was a team effort and as much the defenses fault as his. The defense started with Infante assuming that he was going to turn a double play, which would have atleast kept the Braves in the game. Now as for the amount of games and innings that the Braves relievers have thrown, there is no doubt that they have been over worked. Soriano, Gonzalez, and Moylan have all been over worked and this is simply because of a weak bullpen. They have the best stuff and are the few trusted to get outs in important situations. Although at this point every outting has been an adventure with these 3. I conclusion I honestly have no answer other then when the game is on the line I’d rather have it in one of these proven veterans hand’s then in Boone Logan’s.
Mama Cox
August 21st, 2009
7:34 am
Bradley has always told you how much I love my boys. Now he has stabbed me in the back–which reporters are prone to do. But Mama Cox still loves Mama’s boys and Mama’s boys still love Mama Cox.
Beau Bock
August 21st, 2009
11:52 am
Bobby Cox has NEVER been able to think outside the box. Recent example. Last Friday night vs. Philly you had Ryan Howard leading off the 9th. He is dreadful against left handed pitching…around .139. So instead of having Gonzalez pitch to Howard, he brings in Soriano and look whay happened.
Diehard
August 22nd, 2009
1:46 pm
Maybe, Mark, someone ought to write a column about how Cox’s inability to manage pitchers TWICE in one week resulted in TWO losses when we could ill afford them. No one is writing it quite like that and its as simple as the loss column can make it – especially this week.
Rico Carty
August 23rd, 2009
3:51 pm
Sorry to change subjects but can someone explain why Gorecki, who can’t hit a lick, is the guy called up to help the outfield during the McLouth/Anderson outage. Clearly the guy cannot hit ML pitching and I don’t see any great defensive skills to justify it. All of yu who think Booby knows what he’s doing please enlighten us.
Wrangler
August 23rd, 2009
8:39 pm
You’ve got the 5 starters, and 5 credible relievers. How else are you going to do it? When the worst of the lot are Derek Lowe (currently) and Boone Logan (newbie), that’s not a bad bunch of players.
Wrangler
August 23rd, 2009
8:43 pm
Oops! Typo. Make that 7 relievers – the top 3, and O’Flaherty, Medlin, Acosta, and Logan.
Terminator
August 26th, 2009
8:46 am
I, the Terminator of the Braves message board, would like to announce here for one and all my love for another poster named Bluetooner, who I wish to blow.