If the Braves do fall out of it, should youth be served?
Understand: I’m not saying the Braves are out of it. I might be the only person in Atlanta who believes the Braves aren’t out of it. But what if, two weeks hence, nothing has changed and they’re still around .500 and there are 44 games left and too many teams ahead of them? What should they do then?
A sports rule of thumb: Don’t lose with seniors. If your season has gone kablooey, there’s no reason to trot out the same old guys and let them pad their stats. Trot out some new guys and see what they can do. If nothing else, it gives you a leg up on next season.
And ordinarily I’d say: Yes, do it. Bring up Jason Heyward and Freddie Freeman and let them have six weeks of big-league work. But then I think of Joey Devine and Jordan Schafer, two guys the Braves rushed to the bigs, and I say … no, don’t.
Jason Heyward doesn’t turn 20 until Sunday. He’s two years removed from Henry County High. He’s a great talent who isn’t yet old enough to drink. He doesn’t need to be in the majors just yet.
Freddie Freeman doesn’t turn 20 until Sept. 12. He’s likewise two years out of high school. He doesn’t need to be here, either.
As was mentioned in this space yesterday, the Braves have prepared themselves nicely for 2010 and beyond. The worst thing they could do now is get ahead of themselves. The plan in place is the proper plan. If the 2009 season winds up fizzling, that’s all the more reason not to jeopardize the next.
I’m like you. I’d love to see Heyward and Freeman at Turner Field ASAP. But I felt the same about Tommy Hanson after seeing him in camp, and he got here soon enough. Frank Wren has this thing he says when he’s asked about promoting prospects: “Players will tell you when they’re ready.”
Just in case Messrs. Heyward and Freeman don’t speak loudly enough, I’ll say it for them: They’re not ready yet. But soon. Very soon.
(Oh, and if you young folks don’t remember Joey Devine, here’s a little something I wrote about him after he was traded to Oakland for Mark Kotsay. He hasn’t pitched at all this season after undergoing elbow surgery, and that’s a shame. He’s a nice guy who has — or at least had — a great arm.)
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119 comments Add your comment
hernia
August 5th, 2009
4:56 am
what a shame. heyward reminds me of a younger mark bradley
Coach (2010 or Bust)
August 5th, 2009
5:08 am
It ain’t over until the fat lady sings. Unfortunately, she’s getting warmed up.
I like many can’t wait to see Jason Heyward playing in Atlanta and although Freeman look solid only time will tell if he sticks or not. Yes, players will tell you when they’re ready. However, we all know the Braves timing concerning Hanson was as much about money and Heyward’s situation will be handled much the same way.
As of right now, our Braves have got to start reeling off winning streaks. Winning two out of three won’t cut it anymore. Time is short and once the roster’s expand come September, it’s going to be much tougher to make up all the ground that has already been lost.
And Bradley is correct, the future looks good. Our Braves have a solid nucleus of youth and talent in McCann, Escobar, McLouth, Hanson, Jurrjens, Heyward and maybe Schafer too.
Ed-Covington
August 5th, 2009
5:22 am
Always love your blogs, Mark; but I have to disagree with you here. I remember well the Joey Devine situation; but he was brought up under pressure with high expectations in the middle of a heated pennant race and the subsequent playoffs. The scenario you present is just the opposite, giving two heralded prospects the experience of the major leagues under little or no pressure since the Braves would be out of the playoff picture. Of course, I don’t know how bringing them up early would affect their rookie and arbitration staus later; if it did, I’m against it. You’re only talking about part of a month, anyway; since they are sure to be called up in September.
gtjacket
August 5th, 2009
5:29 am
Wow Mark, you’re up early this morning. Good point, let’s not rush Heyward and Freeman.
Richard Nieh
August 5th, 2009
5:52 am
Aren’t we play 107 games now and full season is 162 games. That is 55 games left right?
Richard Nieh
August 5th, 2009
5:55 am
I don’t think Braves “rushed” Jordan Schafer. He had an amazing spring and outplayed all other candidates. He earned a spot. Plus, he was a lot older than both Heyward and Freeman.
"Chef" Tim Dix
August 5th, 2009
6:10 am
In a word, no.
Now, who wants grits?
"Chef" Tim Dix
August 5th, 2009
6:20 am
I would slow down beating the Moylan mule, bring Hudson down to a simmer and once and if Infante returns…Give Chipper a look at first.
"Chef" Tim Dix
August 5th, 2009
6:26 am
It may be wishful thinking on my part but even a 4-3 road trip won’t knock’em out. The upcoming Phillies series at the Ted should tell the tale.
Coach (2010 or Bust)
August 5th, 2009
6:53 am
Speaking of youth served and the opposing team, the Padres have one youngster in their minor league system by the name of Luis Durango.
The two time minor league batting champion is lightning fast but it’s his 174 walks against 156 strike outs that just screams big leaguer.
Frank Wren would be wise to take a long look his way as our Braves are sorely lacking in the speed/lead off/stolen base department.
Dobearsbare
August 5th, 2009
6:53 am
I think the Braves almost have to bring them up. LaRoche makes $7 million this year and almost certainly will be more expensive in 2010. He’s worth keeping, but it’ll probably take a long-term deal to do it. Do you make that commitment and delay bringing Freeman to the big leagues another 2-3 years? I wouldn’t. It seems doubtful Garret Anderson will be back, so Heyward’s case is easier because there are more outfield ABs to be had next year.
If they aren’t called up this year, look for neither of them to be in Atlanta before June 1, like the club did with Hanson. No reason to start that arbitration clock early.
Mitch C
August 5th, 2009
7:02 am
Mark, I dont think there would be anything wrong with bringing Heyward and Freeman up. Being called up at 20 or 21 years old is hardly being “rushed”. Three pretty good pitchers who will one day be in the Hall of Fame named Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, and John Smoltz were called up at 21 years old. (I believe Greg was actually 20 when he debuted in 1986) If Bobby wants to give Heyward and Freeman some big league experience, go for it.
As for us “being out of it”. You mentioned that you are the only one who thinks we arent. We may not be “out of it”, but our chances look more bleak with each day off the calendar. We are 5-1-2 games out of the wild card, with several teams to pass. I dont see us getting the wild card, unless we do something like run off 10 wins in 12 games. I posted in Dave O’Brien’s blog the other day that I thought we were done for 2009, and I still believe that.
Chances are, 2009 is a lost cause. Hopefully, we can position ourselves well for 2010.
Mitch
hop
August 5th, 2009
7:04 am
the season is over and all the hype from the braves proved nothing once again.
they need to get the young guys up when the roster is expanded on sept 1 and see how far along they are.if they can play next year, give them a shot.
players are making the jump to the majors sooner rather than later.
mitch
August 5th, 2009
7:06 am
Dear Mr. MB–not so fast here. As I write this, in this very minute, the Braves are only 6 1/2 games behind the Phillies. If they were to go on a 7-game winning streak and the Phillies on a 7-game losing streak we would be in the lead, “in medias res,” as they say in English 101. Your pal, Mitch
Bank Walker, Texas Ranger
August 5th, 2009
7:24 am
I don’t think the Braves hurt Devine by rushing him, they did lose a crucial game or 2 because they rushed him but from what I remember when they traded him his ERA was less than 2 and the next season with the A’s, he was like 6-1 with an era of less than 3.00. He may have had a 1 year set back but who is to say that Devine wasn’t going to struggle for 2 years anyway. Don’t most guys struggle the first year or two. I think Smoltz and Glavine were horrible the first year but that didn’t set them back.
Bank Walker, Texas Ranger
August 5th, 2009
7:26 am
Mitch two problems with you scenario 1. The Braves ain’t going to win 6 in a row and 2. the Phillies ain’t going to lose 3 in a row.
Bank Walker, Texas Ranger
August 5th, 2009
8:14 am
Enter your comments here
Brian
August 5th, 2009
8:15 am
Freeman turns 20 on September 12, not 21.
Bill
August 5th, 2009
8:19 am
I say bring them up when the rosters expand. If we are out of it (which we will be) then let them start and see what they can do. That way we know what to expect from them in 2010. If both play well then maybe there is no need to sign a big name 1B or another outfielder. I understand the money thing but there is no reason to wait until next and just take a chance with them. I do not think Jordan was rushed. I think our great manager over used him and also the wrist injury had something to do with it. My guess is that Wren wanted him to be the starter and Cox probably did not want him so he paid Wren back and threw him out there every day and every inning. Devine was not over used but Cox did seem to bring him in at the wrong times and also let him stay in there too long. That was a bad year for our relievers so Cox did not have too many other options but still no other manager would probably put a new call up in those situations. This team will not improve until we gat a new manager.
Bobbymahlon
August 5th, 2009
8:26 am
Bringing up prospects in meaningless games in Sept cannot hurt any player that has what it takes to make the big show. If we were involved in a tight race for post season play that would be different. If you look at what Schafer did in the minors last year there was nothing to get excited about when you compare his stats to salt and peppers.
Daniel
August 5th, 2009
8:31 am
MB- I agree that it is premature to write off this season. We still have Infante and Hudson to come back and bolster the team. So, the wild card is not out of the picture just yet. Although they need to win now. this 4-7 is coming close to killing us.
Freeman and Heyward in late season call-ups with the expanded rosters if the season is over is totally different situation than Schafer and Devine. Not a reasonable comparison. At that point you are talking about an extended spring training.
Daniel
August 5th, 2009
8:32 am
Bill- you are dead wrong.
Bank Walker, Texas Ranger
August 5th, 2009
8:33 am
Can we at least bring Freeman and Heyward up to Gwinnett so I can see them plus they would see a little better pitching.
Rick
August 5th, 2009
8:35 am
It’s over. It was over two months ago. Heyward is hitting over 400 at Mississippi. If he’s “not ready” for the majors, isn’t it at least time for him to consort with the assorted stiffs at Gwinnett? That’s what sad, I think – the Braves have nothing but holes (left, right, first, bullpen, bench), and only two prospects in the pipe. Thanks, John Schuerholz – those Drew and Tex trades were just brilliant.
MightyQuinn
August 5th, 2009
8:38 am
Not knowing the mental and emotional maturity of these guys makes this hard to judge. I do think the Schafer thing was different because they gave him the everyday job and he was expected to produce with the pressure of the leadoff position on a team that was hopeful of contention. The new youngsters wouldn’t have to play everyday and would have no pressure other than their own reputations to fulfil (which are substantial). But if they are judged by the team to be pretty mature guys (a la Hanson), then I say, bring’em up! If not, then don’t.
Bama Aaron
August 5th, 2009
8:43 am
I keep reading these articles about bringing these “kids” up to soon and I just shake my head. In Braves parlance “too soon” means starting the arbitration clock and costing them money they don’t want to spend. Other than that there shouldn’t be a too soon. It’s baseball…same game these kids have been playing since they big enough to hold a bat. Only real adjustment they should need to make is learning how to hit a big league curveball or breaking pitch. Other than that it’s the same game.
Bring them up and see what they can do.
MightyQuinn
August 5th, 2009
8:45 am
Rick, the “stiffs” are tied for thier division lead and are 15 games over 500. I agree with those saying bring to Gwinnett at least and they can experience a AAA pennant race and playoffs.
Bank Walker, Texas Ranger
August 5th, 2009
8:50 am
MightyQuinn, Rick is dead on, Gwinnett is full of stiffs who will never get a sniff at the Bigs. The only possibility for any of the position players to make it is a mid season injury on the big team. The IL is a pitchers league. Rick was dead on, we have traded away all but two position prospects for the next 2-3 years unless you consider Schafer, then it is 3. That’s why I wanted the call up to Gwinnett so I can see some players who may actually play in the Majors one day.
Tuckerboy
August 5th, 2009
8:55 am
Another question is not so much promoting the young guys before they are ready but also have the Braves lost their ability to continue to develop players once they make the majors? Recent history (Schafer, Devine, and even Francoeur) suggests that the big club is 50/50 at best with development. You will not win championships with that kind of percentage.
PMC
August 5th, 2009
8:57 am
They could bring up Conrad and Canizares if they wanted… this year.
If they keep Kelly Johnson around next year he might have to go back to left field, he tried second base, he just can’t do it. They can’t sit around and continue to watch him struggle at the plate, his best talent was always his nice swing and good bat… if he doesn’t have that he’s not a major leaguer.
Heyward should be moved up to AAA at least this year, he’s got nothing else to prove in AA.
PMC
August 5th, 2009
8:57 am
Most good prospects jump from AA to the majors anyway.
DHD
August 5th, 2009
8:58 am
I saw Heyward in a Spring Training game this past Spring. He took a low and outside fastball and drilled it over the centerfield wall like a laser. The guy is a stud. If Andruw Jones was able to play at age 19 then Heyward should be given his shot.
NC Braves Fan
August 5th, 2009
8:58 am
Mark – I humbly and respectfully reject the premise of the question and go back to what Frank Wren said … the player will tell you when he’s ready. It’s on that basis that the decision should be made.
As for Schaefer, we may well look back later and realize his wrist injury played a big part in his problems out of the gate.
Devine, as others have mentioned, was put into a pressurized spot – so yes it would seem he was rushed to the bigs.
MightyQuinn
August 5th, 2009
8:59 am
Agreed that there aren’t many, if any, guys on GBraves roster that are great prospects, but my point was that they are winning “stiffs”. The topic was worrying that they weren’t ready for the pressure of the bigs, so bring’em up for a AAA pennant race and see how they handle THAT pressure. BTW, in 27 games Heyward has 21 rbis only 10 Ks to 15 bbs in 90 ABs, and an OPS of 1.227. Wow!
PMC
August 5th, 2009
9:00 am
I just don’t think with the super 2 rules they are going to jeopardize thier having to pay Heyward big money earlier…. just like they did with Hanson.
Joey Devine was a fluke. It’s not like we have some kind of great track record of reliever success here in Atlanta. In the last 20 years you can probably count on your hand the guys you felt good about pitching after the 7th.
Dean
August 5th, 2009
9:00 am
Why is it now when I watch Chipper at bat my thought is “Oh my God. Who’s going to be his replacement?” Is Father Time peeking around the corner?
Mike Jay
August 5th, 2009
9:01 am
How old was Andruw Jones reported to be when he came up? IIRC he was 20, at least on his birth certificate and he did just fine. Heyward is about due for a promotion to AAA. They can not get him out in double A. Freeman is doing well but not at the level of Heyward.
Knuckle Sandwich
August 5th, 2009
9:13 am
Mark, you say we are positioned well for 2010. Who is going to play first base? Probably not Laroche, since he is probably going to be the most sought after free agent first basemen in the offseason. Probably not Freeman because of his age. So, we are left looking to sign a veteran, and the market ain’t great. Next year’s free agent 1B’s make Kasey Kotchman look like Albert Pujols.
Mark Bradley
August 5th, 2009
9:15 am
Brian wins the prize for spotting today’s numerical error: Freeman turns 20 in September, not 21. Thanks, Brian.
Mark Bradley
August 5th, 2009
9:17 am
Andruw Jones was 19 when he arrived in the majors, FYI.
AndyC
August 5th, 2009
9:18 am
There is no telling how old Andruw Jones really is. He may be 2-3 years older than he is saying. If he was really only 32 years old would he have fallen off so quickly? Please don’t throw Andruw out as an example for Heyward or Freeman to come up to the majors.
Nativebird
August 5th, 2009
9:19 am
Mr. Wren ordained we are out of it this year by doing nothing at the July deadline to enhance our run production, which is THE reason we’re defacto unable to make a run at it.
We HAD a shot…but the inability of this GM and this organization to acquire Top Drawer ML RBI producers when it is most needed is a fundamental flaw.
One does NOT have to drain the farm to get a topline FA RBI producer. Pair Kawakami with a mid-level prospect, and you’d a have a good chance at attracting a big right handed Bat somewhere in this “pitcher-hungry” league.
But no…this org is ALL or nothing on the question of youth v. proven FA’s. Which is a false choice.
Michael
August 5th, 2009
9:28 am
And Furcal was under 20 as well, no?
Outside Robber
August 5th, 2009
9:31 am
In one sense, I see a Heyward being promoted at this stage akin to putting a bandaid on a hatchet wound. On the other, exposing the young lad to the bright lights of MLB might ease the transition as early as next year, that is, if his confidence doesn’t take a hit.
So, there are multiple sides to view the Braves’ current situation, options and plight. Paraphrasing Walter Cronkite’s assessment of the VietNam war: “Wren and his minions went to the well, bought talent and, in 2009, did the best that he could, but it’s clear to this reporter that the season that was to be, is all but over.”
Herschel Talker
August 5th, 2009
9:42 am
Mark – admit it. You got reminded about your Joey Devine and the idea to mention it here based on my comment in your Braves blog yesterday.
RBrave
August 5th, 2009
9:45 am
I agree with most of the bloggers, bring them both up to AAA. Even if we do have “stiffs’ in Gwinnett they would see better pitching and be closer to Atlanta. Then with roster expansion and if we’re out of it give them some starts and see how they do. Don’t get too excited if they start out fast (Frenchy, Reds J Bruce etc.) Once the big leauge scouts get a book on you then reality could set in. But I hope they both turn out to be good major leaugers. Go Braves
TommyP
August 5th, 2009
9:53 am
Nobody knows if Heyward is ready for the majors. He’s absolutely mauling AA pitching which is where the more talented players are in the minors. AAA is more a 4-A squad. Tons of journeymen in AAA.
What the Braves should do at both positions next year is to have a veteran capable of platooning with them should they struggle a bit. They both hit left-handed so have a veteran righthanded hitter there in case a platoon is needed to ease them in.
I don’t think Freeman will be up when Heyward arrives, though. He’s futher behind Heyward so signing a LaRoche to a 1 year contract wouldn’t be a bad idea.
Oh yeah…..as I said during the Braves winning July…this isn’t a playoff team.
gondeee
August 5th, 2009
9:59 am
I completely disagree: http://www.talkingchop.com/2009/8/5/978162/that-whole-should-the-braves-call
Mike Jay
August 5th, 2009
10:01 am
Kawakami and a mid range prospect for a big right handed bat???
Good luck with that.
I think Andruw jones is a fine comparison…provided he really was 19 years old. We will most likely seee both propects in Sept aand if we are out of it by then they wil lget signifigant playing time. I am fine with that but no need to rush it.
Freddy G
August 5th, 2009
10:03 am
Mark I share your view on the matter of bringing up these guys immediately, and have them suffer the same fate as Schaefer. I don’t believe though that age should be the issue, my concern is whether they are getting the proper coaching in our minor league system. All the guys we read about hit over 300 in the minor leagues, but when they arrive at the big club cannot hit 250. Take Kelly recently in his minor league rehab, also Norton and Diory Hernandez all were hitting over 330, Cannizares was raking as some suggest. It is quite evident that our coaching at the minor league needs to be reviewed with an emphasis on plate discipline and reading pitches. TP gets a lot of blame on these blogs, but these guys should be taught these disciplines before they arrive at the big club. We thought the Pirates were crazy to give up Nate to the Braves for what they got in return, but could they be smiling later. Also their decision to move Nate has proven to be a good one as McClutchen has made every Pirate fan forget about Nate.