The Hot Button: Glavine, Maddux or Smoltz – who was best?
Tom Glavine was the one who got it all going and who was MVP of the only World Series the Atlanta Braves won, and John Smoltz was the one who saw the run of excellence through until its ridiculously delayed end. They were great pitchers, first-ballot Hall of Famers. Greg Maddux was more than just a great pitcher. He was the greatest of his era — yes, this includes Roger Clemens — and among the five greatest ever.
Glavine had more 20-win seasons (five to Maddux’s two, and one of the two was as a Cub). Smoltz was more utilitarian (a 24-win season and a 55-save season). But Maddux stands above his longtime companions — first among equals, if you will — because of his matchless consistency.
The Braves will induct Mad Dog — or “Doggie,” or, as Bobby Cox sometimes had it, just “Mad” — into their Hall of Fame tomorrow, and such a designation for this particular pitcher seems slightly off. Maddux was never really “famous” in the way Clemens was famous. (Then again, Clemens is now infamous.) Maddux was just without peer at what he did, and what he did, in his unassuming words, was to “try and make pitches and get guys out.” (See YouTube video below, courtesy of Fox Sports.)
For 17 consecutive seasons, Maddux won at least 15 games. (Yes, that’s a record.) Yes, the first five and the final one came as a Cub, but think of it this way: In the winter of 1992 the Braves signed a free agent who would, without fail, give them at least 15 victories in every season for more than a decade. Not for nothing did Stan Kasten call Maddux “the greatest free-agent signing ever,” and the only one that rivals him is the guy who signed with San Francisco a few days earlier at those same winter meetings at the Galt House in Louisville, Ky. — Barry Bonds.
From 1992 through 1995, Maddux was almost as dominant as Sandy Koufax was from 1963 through 1966, which figures to stand forever as the finest string of pitching the game has ever known. (Koufax had an ERA under 2.00 in three of those four years; Maddux had an ERA under 2.00 in two of his four.) But here’s the difference: After 1966, Koufax never threw another pitch. After 1995, Maddux won 205 more games.
My neighbor Dan Reagan, who used to direct Braves telecasts for TBS and who now does games for ESPN, used to get irritated because the national media never affixed an aura to Maddux. He was never a Clemens, a Pedro, a Big Unit. He was just … Greg Maddux. Which was fine with Greg Maddux.
Indeed, I once asked Maddux about Randy Johnson, and Maddux shrugged — Maddux was big on shrugging — and said, “He throws his slider harder than I throw my fastball.” He also said, of Johnson’s famous sobriquet, “Only good players get cool nicknames.”
Loading ...But here’s the thing: With his underwhelming fastball and his modest nickname, Maddux outpitched the Big Unit, outpitched Pedro, outpitched even Clemens. Yes, Clemens had more Cy Youngs — seven to Maddux’s four — but Clemens also had four seasons in the ’90s where he totaled 40 victories. And nobody ever suggested Maddux would test positive for anything other than trans fats. (Don Sutton: “Greg Maddux’s idea of training is to run, not walk, to Burger King.”)
In the 10 seasons of the exalted partnership, we Atlantans were spoiled beyond measure. We saw three bound-for-Cooperstown pitchers take regular turns, feeding off one another as they went. We saw Glavine with the changeup and Smoltz with the slider, and somehow the guy we noticed least was the best of the three.
Greg Maddux didn’t really do anything special. He just made pitches and got guys out. Except that he made most all the pitches and got nearly every guy out every fifth day of his baseball life.
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207 comments Add your comment
JEB
July 16th, 2009
4:16 pm
One of the things I will talk about for years will be the fact that I saw Maddox pitch! I watched him from day one as a Brave (knowing all along he was the BEST I ever saw pitch). I saw him live several times.
He was more than just a great pitcher – he knew the science of pitching!
Smoltz & Glavine had a Masters’ Degree in pitching.
Maddox had a PHD! (Pitchers Highest Degree)
Hillbilly Deluxe
July 16th, 2009
4:40 pm
When Maddux first came up with the Cubs he reminded me of Rick Reuschel (who was a pretty good pitcher). Turned out over the long haul Maddux was better. As for the three, I preferred to watch Maddux pitch just because of his style of pitching and the fact he was a total gamer. Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz were all good and if he hadn’t gotten hurt I think Steve Avery might have been as good but we’ll never know. The 1-0 playoff victory Avery pitched over the Pirates was one of the best pitched games I’ve ever seen.
Next week’s topic: Best catcher in history — Johnny Bench or Paul Bako?
So who’s this Johnny Bench?
dl
July 16th, 2009
5:23 pm
Hey Texas Ranger, Eva Mendes is overated! She’s not even top 10 of todays hollywood starlets! Try Jessica Alba instead of that skank Mendes.
Steven
July 16th, 2009
5:23 pm
I dont understand why this is even up for debate.
While all 3 were great pitchers for the Braves, Maddux was above and beyond the best of the 3.
dl
July 16th, 2009
5:24 pm
Hey Free Mike Vick, just go away and die! Will you?
dl
July 16th, 2009
5:26 pm
Burce Benedict, and how about Ozzie Virgil when he and Dion James almost got into a scuffle at first base. Ahh Those were the years!
dl
July 16th, 2009
5:28 pm
Braveslifer, what about that moron, Perez? Is he still lost on the perimeter!
Mark Bradley
July 16th, 2009
5:32 pm
Just now catching up here: The ceremony will begin tomorrow night at 7:30, and fans are asked to be in their seats at 7:15. (Game time is 7:45. They’re delaying it for the ceremony.)
And the weird part of Steve Avery was, at the time of the first pennant run, he was considered the most talented of the Braves’ pitchers. (Maddux wasn’t here yet.) “Poison Avery” — remember?
The Grinch
July 16th, 2009
5:34 pm
Maddux was unquestionably the best. Personalities aside (and he was way ahead there, too), he was miles ahead of the other two. We won’t see his like again, alas. I wish the Braves would hire him as manager.
The Grinch
July 16th, 2009
5:35 pm
MB, I thought Avery was the best then too. What a waste to blow out an arm like that so early.
Mark Bradley
July 16th, 2009
5:40 pm
As good as Smoltz was against the Pirates in 1991 — and he won Games 3 and 7 — Avery was even better. He won Games 2 and 6 when the Braves were trailing in the series was named MVP of the LCS. (Smoltz was MVP of the 1992 NLCS.)
Dawg hatin' Jacket
July 16th, 2009
6:55 pm
No question here. Count the number of Cy Youngs.
Dawg hatin' Jacket
July 16th, 2009
6:57 pm
One more argument for Maddux…the MLB network, on its top 9 show recounting the best pitchers of each decade, chose Maddux for the 90’s. He’s their choice for the BEST PITCHER IN ALL OF BASEBALL. Nuff said.
BravesFan79
July 16th, 2009
7:04 pm
Ill always have love for all 3, but Smoltz is my favorite! And whoever said that Smoltz was Not a first ballot HOF… your a idiot!
thefloydian
July 16th, 2009
7:13 pm
Anyone who says anything but Maddux is kidding themself
steve
July 16th, 2009
7:43 pm
Sorry for late post. I remember the day they announced Maddux was signed. I thought what the heck do the Braves need with another pitcher. Boy was I wrong. Can’t say who is the best ever but Greg is certainly on the short list.
micah
July 16th, 2009
8:05 pm
Maybe I am wrong. But am I the only person who remembers how Maddox got smoked (like Jamie Moyers) when he didn’t get those phantom strikes 6 inches off the plate? Love the man, but give me a pitcher with some heat anyday.
Jeremy
July 16th, 2009
9:11 pm
They were all great. The game will never see another 3-some like it. And just imagine if Avery hadn’t gotten injured, we could be including him in this discussion as well.
the real Andy
July 16th, 2009
9:55 pm
Maddux is one of the greatest pitchers in history. Smoltz is on the best in postseason history.
Maddux is my all-time favorite player. Wish I wasn’t in California so that I could be there tomorrow. If I lived within 500 miles I’d be there. Oh well.
fred
July 16th, 2009
9:57 pm
“Pitchers, like poets, are born not made ” Cy Young
In my lifetime I have been fortunate enough to see Kofax ,Drysdale, Gibson, Lolich, and Clemens. Even though I saw all those guys pitch I forever miss seeing Greg Maddux pitch again. He didnt throw hard but his pitches had more controlled movement than almost anybody that I have ever seen pitch. Even in his last year with the Padres even if he lost the game he was amazing to watch.In my opinion he was the greatest that I have ever seen take the mound. He will be in Cooperstown on the first ballot.
Wes
July 16th, 2009
10:10 pm
Greg Maddux once pitched a complete game one hitter against Chicago where the whole game was an hour and 45 minutes.
To me, that’s all that really needs to be said. John Smoltz far and away my favorite player, but Greg Maddux was one of the most dominant ever.
scottbravesfan
July 16th, 2009
10:39 pm
Maddux and it’s not even close
gayle
July 16th, 2009
10:41 pm
Hands down, the best was Maddux. 355 wins and a model of consistency in pitching and fielding throughout his career. Glavine will always have Game 6 of the 1995 World Series and Smoltz Game 7 of the 1991 World Series – but overall, for the duration of their careers, Maddux is the best!
I will be at the Ted on Friday to show him my support.
benchwarmer
July 16th, 2009
10:43 pm
Maddox definately was the smartest pitcher I ever witnessed. Match that with his ability to develope all kinds of odd little pitches to match his needs against any batter, and his ability to hit the target like no one else ever. I’ll take Mad Dog in my top five anytime along with Kofax, Bob Gibson, Warren Spahn and Christy Mathewson.
Mitch C
July 16th, 2009
10:49 pm
Mark, I feel that Greg Maddux was the best, for a few reasons.
One, his record with the Braves. 194-88 in his eleven seasons with Atlanta. Glavine and Smoltz were good, but not quite that good.
Two, his microscopic ERA’s in many of his prime years. Greg had ERAs of 1.5 and 1.6, and also consistently in the low twos. In his best days, opponents were lucky to score one run off him.
Three, he didnt have that “one bad inning”. In his prime, Glavine always struggled in the first inning, and Smoltz would have games where he just looked awful. During Greg’s tenure with the Braves, the times he got lit up were rare.
Four, his fielding. Smoltz and Glavine were decent fielders, Maddux was a Gold Glover.
Is that enough reasons?
Mitch
Henthabox
July 16th, 2009
11:15 pm
I guess there’s nothing wrong with a little wrangling about relative “greatness” when discussing players of the caliber of Glavine, Maddux and Smoltz, BUT…the reality is that Greg Maddux is one of the best players in the history of organized baseball. I feel privileged to have witnessed so many of his amazing performances. Maddux should be a unanimous electee into Cooperstown.
bravesfan09
July 16th, 2009
11:17 pm
Why does it have to be one was a better brave than the other? They were all great in their own way, and I don’t think anyone of them should be considered better than the other two. Maddux number wise was better and he was always consistent yr after yr, Smoltz was great in playoffs and was brilliant whether in bullpen or starting rotation, Glavine was very consistent whether in regular season or playoffs and not to mention the guy just got put on dl for first time in his entire career last yr. Career era for maddux was 3.16, smoltz 3.26, and for glavine it was 3.54. Wins is not as reliable as era in determining a pitcher’s performance. Just look at Vasquez and Jurjens this yr and you can see why. The bullpen will blow games and usually the braves fail to score any runs for some reason when their pitchers pitch a good game.
Lebo
July 16th, 2009
11:29 pm
There is no question that Smotz, Glavine, and Maddux are all fantastic in their own way and will always be remembered for their part in the Braves history. There is also no question that Greg Maddux is probably one of the smartest pitchers ever to take the mound and was successful because he was able to locate his pitches knowing what the batter would do. And, as others have said, he will never be accused of being juiced. Brains will outdo brawn, maybe not every time, but enough to win in the long run. Thanks to all 3 of them for what they did but I’m taking Doggie.
Pretend Hero
July 16th, 2009
11:40 pm
Mark, I dont know how that is weird? Avery was a stud, and would be joining the others in the HOF if Bobby had not overused him.
R W
July 17th, 2009
12:40 am
I’ve got to say John Smoltz. Mainly because he “took one for the team” year after year by being a closer. They were all awesome and I know it spoiled me. I take my kids to the park and I don’t think they see the kind of talent I saw back in the day. Nice write up Mark!
R W
July 17th, 2009
12:49 am
just watched the Chicks dig the long ball commercial on youtube. Very funny! Thanks for the info JonnyHairdont.
boise brave
July 17th, 2009
1:41 am
Smoltz had the nastiest stuff of the trio, and for pure filth was fun to watch. BUT … No question that Maddux was the best pitcher of the bunch. There is a difference between a pitcher and a hurler. Maddux was a pitcher his entire career, carving batters up and working like an artest. He was a pitcher since day-one. Smoltz evolved into a pitcher, and that was fun to watch. But I wonder if he would have evolved that way had he not been able to rub shoulders with Mad Dog.
As for Glavine … well, he got it done, but I always wondered how.
Junkie
July 17th, 2009
1:47 am
Maddux was an artist. All 3 were great, but Madd dog was the best! I saw Koufax, Gibson pitch. Maddux was as good as either. I was at the 95 World Series game when Maddux shut down the Indian’s 2-1. Cleveland fans could not believe how good he was. I said we were lucky in Atlanta to be watching one of the greatest pitcher’s of all time.
M Hartlage
July 17th, 2009
7:29 am
Mad Dog for sure but they all were great, thanks for the memories! and for the ball that all of you signed! It is one of my most prized posessions!
Scott B
July 17th, 2009
8:42 am
Of all the great pitchers, the one I enjoyed watching the most was Maddux. The way he would send hitters (proud, arrogant hitters) back to the dugout shaking theirs heads always gave me satisfatction as a spectator.
ManOfTeal
July 17th, 2009
8:56 am
The pitcher you kept for the least amount of time is the greatest pitcher you’ve ever had. That is why you fail Braves….That, is why you fail.
Michael
July 17th, 2009
9:17 am
Maddux was the best, then Glavine, then fairly far behind, Smoltz. I think it is only anger at Glavine, and overrating “stuff” vs. results, that has people putting Smoltz in front of Glavine. Glavine should have won 2 more Cy Youngs: one went to Maddux that should’ve gone to Tom, and another to Randy Johnson. Maddux is a definite first ballot Hall-of-Famer. Glavine will also likely go in on the first ballot, but it’ll be close. Smoltz will not go in on the first ballot.
DawginLex
July 17th, 2009
9:44 am
Maddux because I got to play golf with him one time. Smoltz’s team won the tournament. Then Smoltz then Glavine. Buzz Capra is a close 4th.
Nathan Mayer
July 17th, 2009
10:58 am
Maddux had much better numbers than Glavine or Smoltz (or anybody really) but what I really want to say is that everybody always downplys his stuff like he is just a good control and change of speed pitcher.
Maddux was nasty. The fastball would move a foot at the last minute. He had one of the best changeups in the game.
Homer
July 17th, 2009
11:02 am
FIRE BRADLEY!!!
Dr.R
July 17th, 2009
11:39 am
Tough call, but I’d have to go with Maddux. He was consistently better over a longer period than his two cohorts, but not by a lot. Glavine had two great seasons and a lot of good ones. Smoltz had a stretch in the 90s when he was so-so — he had to go see his shrink, then had arm trouble that sent him to the bullpen. But in postseason games, he was a beast. Each had periods of dominance, but for the sum of his career, I think Mad Dog was one of the all-time best. You can’t beat 350 wins in this or any era. That’s just sick (and if the Braves had a better closer during some of his time here, or if he finished more games, he might have had 375).
Brown-Eyed Girl!
July 17th, 2009
11:46 am
I have to definitely agree with Mark on this one. As a fan watching every year, I would always think, is this the year that Maddox goes down, and at the end of it, he would have quietly won 15 games. He was pure joy to watch. It was literally like watching an artist paint a picture. With meticulous strokes, he got batters out. He didn’t overpower anyone, he just out thought them. I feel proud to know that at one point in baseball history, I had to opportunity to watch the best three man rotation to ever step on the mound and they played for my Braves! I believe time heals all wounds and Glav and Smoltzie will get over the hurt from how their time here ended. They will see themselves as what they are, the Mt Rushmore of baseball pitchers. Congrats, Maddog on getting in the Braves Hall of Fame. Next stop, Cooperstown.
Nan
July 17th, 2009
11:50 am
Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine in that order.
Maddux was always cool in any situation, you never saw him sweat and how many times did his glove win games with his quick responses.
Early Cuyler
July 17th, 2009
11:51 am
Maddux, it’s not even close.
The One
July 17th, 2009
12:57 pm
It’s true. I pitched in little league, and I was feared for my fastball and slider (yes I could throw a slider as a 10 year old…had about a foot break on it too) I definitely had some filthy stuff..but when I looked at the stat sheet one of the other pitchers on my team had a lower ERA and slightly more strikeouts and more wins…why? That kid could throw it straight! and I mean straight. nothing fancy really….just straight..god could he throw it straigh! My point is that although I was a better athlete overall, he just didn’t walk people like I would sometimes…he rarely was wild if ever, and I struggled with that. It shows up in my golf game today…I can hit 84 one day and 112 the next…no kidding. Although I was probably 10-15 mph faster than Dave, you just knew that he was going to throw it straight and true and give himself a chance at a strikeout or a ground-out or popup..and it showed up in the stats. That’s why Maddux was great, he played within himself and was consistent.
Jack Hass
July 17th, 2009
2:39 pm
Albie Lopez.
End of discussion.
Skeezix
July 17th, 2009
5:05 pm
Maddux – one of the all time best and my favorite pitchers to watch ever. His efficiency was amazing (how many games did he have where he only threw 80 some pitches?). When he was at his best, batters, after facing him for the third time in a game, looked completely confused (almost disoriented) and would swing like they were swatting at flies. And Maddux’s best fastball was never faster than 88-89mph. Smoltz will go down as one of the great ones due to his incredible numbers as both a starter and closer. But, Maddux…he was really special, in the all time top ten in baseball history in my opinion.
B Elms
July 17th, 2009
5:24 pm
After another of my exclamations of amazement while watching a Braves game, my Chinese wife finally came over and asked what the big deal was. I told her that the guy pitching was the greatest pitcher of this generation. She sat down and watched. “He doesn’t look that great to me”. I said, “that’s exactly what all those batters have in mind when they come to bat”. “So what’s their problem”? “Maddux – he’s like you and me – he knows what they’re thinking even before they have the thought”. She gives me her knowing smile.
Aaron
July 17th, 2009
11:40 pm
1. Greg Maddux
2. Tom Glavine ( TOM WAS A WAYY BETTER CLUTH PERFORMER THAN SMOLTZ)
3. Smoltz (his career went up hill, reached his max, then went down down down still amazingly outstanding though)
blackbird13
July 19th, 2009
8:45 pm
Maddux was the best pitcher in baseball during most of the 90’s, but both Glavine and Smoltz won more “big” games, especially in the playoffs. If I were a manager facing a World Series Game 7 and had all 3 healthy and in their prime, no question I would take Smoltz and probably Glavine second. Yeah,I know Glavine won the biggest game 7 in Atlanta history, but Smoltz was even more dominant in 91’s game 7 vs. the Twins. One of the greatest performances by a non-winning pitcher ever. And of course there is the additional unique fact that Smoltz was also a dominant closer for several years.
That said, Maddux’s overall career must be judged as the best of the 3, but I don’t think it’s by the wide margin that most others here are claiming. And his less-than-stellar playoff performance must be considered, given how many chances he had compared to most pitchers.