The Hot Button: Glavine, Maddux or Smoltz – who was best?
Tom Glavine was the one who got it all going and who was MVP of the only World Series the Atlanta Braves won, and John Smoltz was the one who saw the run of excellence through until its ridiculously delayed end. They were great pitchers, first-ballot Hall of Famers. Greg Maddux was more than just a great pitcher. He was the greatest of his era — yes, this includes Roger Clemens — and among the five greatest ever.
Glavine had more 20-win seasons (five to Maddux’s two, and one of the two was as a Cub). Smoltz was more utilitarian (a 24-win season and a 55-save season). But Maddux stands above his longtime companions — first among equals, if you will — because of his matchless consistency.
The Braves will induct Mad Dog — or “Doggie,” or, as Bobby Cox sometimes had it, just “Mad” — into their Hall of Fame tomorrow, and such a designation for this particular pitcher seems slightly off. Maddux was never really “famous” in the way Clemens was famous. (Then again, Clemens is now infamous.) Maddux was just without peer at what he did, and what he did, in his unassuming words, was to “try and make pitches and get guys out.” (See YouTube video below, courtesy of Fox Sports.)
For 17 consecutive seasons, Maddux won at least 15 games. (Yes, that’s a record.) Yes, the first five and the final one came as a Cub, but think of it this way: In the winter of 1992 the Braves signed a free agent who would, without fail, give them at least 15 victories in every season for more than a decade. Not for nothing did Stan Kasten call Maddux “the greatest free-agent signing ever,” and the only one that rivals him is the guy who signed with San Francisco a few days earlier at those same winter meetings at the Galt House in Louisville, Ky. — Barry Bonds.
From 1992 through 1995, Maddux was almost as dominant as Sandy Koufax was from 1963 through 1966, which figures to stand forever as the finest string of pitching the game has ever known. (Koufax had an ERA under 2.00 in three of those four years; Maddux had an ERA under 2.00 in two of his four.) But here’s the difference: After 1966, Koufax never threw another pitch. After 1995, Maddux won 205 more games.
My neighbor Dan Reagan, who used to direct Braves telecasts for TBS and who now does games for ESPN, used to get irritated because the national media never affixed an aura to Maddux. He was never a Clemens, a Pedro, a Big Unit. He was just … Greg Maddux. Which was fine with Greg Maddux.
Indeed, I once asked Maddux about Randy Johnson, and Maddux shrugged — Maddux was big on shrugging — and said, “He throws his slider harder than I throw my fastball.” He also said, of Johnson’s famous sobriquet, “Only good players get cool nicknames.”
Loading ...But here’s the thing: With his underwhelming fastball and his modest nickname, Maddux outpitched the Big Unit, outpitched Pedro, outpitched even Clemens. Yes, Clemens had more Cy Youngs — seven to Maddux’s four — but Clemens also had four seasons in the ’90s where he totaled 40 victories. And nobody ever suggested Maddux would test positive for anything other than trans fats. (Don Sutton: “Greg Maddux’s idea of training is to run, not walk, to Burger King.”)
In the 10 seasons of the exalted partnership, we Atlantans were spoiled beyond measure. We saw three bound-for-Cooperstown pitchers take regular turns, feeding off one another as they went. We saw Glavine with the changeup and Smoltz with the slider, and somehow the guy we noticed least was the best of the three.
Greg Maddux didn’t really do anything special. He just made pitches and got guys out. Except that he made most all the pitches and got nearly every guy out every fifth day of his baseball life.
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207 comments Add your comment
Nativebird
July 16th, 2009
2:10 pm
Maddux; because he’s the only Braves pitcher to ever win over 350 victories and NOT sue his neihbor to cut down the tree blocking the sun to his backyard swimming pool, and, NOT to claim the organization that paid him over 100 Million dollars during his career stabbed him in the back while he was leaving to New York for a few million more.
ppaddy123
July 16th, 2009
2:10 pm
Dave in Buford July 16th, 2009 2:03 pm
Dave, excellent post…………..says all there really needs to be said about the man. HE WAS THE BEST OF HIS ERA!
Spud Webb
July 16th, 2009
2:10 pm
Maddux, he’s the only one who didn’t cry/badmouth the braves after he left, like the other two sissies.
Jt
July 16th, 2009
2:12 pm
Dang, times MUST be slow in the sports world when this question elicits opinions on a blog. Not even close! Maddox! He dominated at a higher level than any of the Big 3, and also for a longer period of time. He did not need nearly as wide a strike zone as Glavine. And Smoltz spent too much time hurt. The only year that Smoltz was the most dominant was ‘96. Every other year it was Maddox. Even the year that Glavine won the 2nd CY, it was die to high level of consistency with a large number of wins- not as dominant as either Smoltz or Maddox in years that they dominated.
Bill
July 16th, 2009
2:15 pm
While all three were great students of the game,Maddux was the Valedictorian.
Sting 'em Buzz
July 16th, 2009
2:18 pm
#2 is Tommy, The Braves rotation went Right lefty right lefty righty back in 93
Jo Bling
July 16th, 2009
2:18 pm
The Truth: “But on sheer pitching ability, Smoltz truly stood out to me.”
Not sure what you mean by that. Velocity? If so, then yes, Smoltz topped Maddux. But if you go by my definition of pitching ability, then there were none in Maddux’s league, and won’t be for some time to come.
Dave in Buford
July 16th, 2009
2:18 pm
oh, and he won 18 Gold Gloves … the all time record for ANY position … not just pitcher.
N8
July 16th, 2009
2:20 pm
Doug, your 12:31 pretty much sums it up.
Smoltz gets a LOT of slack or leeway, due to how dominant he was in 91 and 92 in the playoffs. But other than that, he really wasn’t any better than Maddux, as you pointed out.
Hell, Avery was just as dominant in 91, if not more than Smoltz was. Everybody remembers the 1-0 game 7 of the WS duel with Jack Morris (as they should – since it is one of the greatest game 7’s ever). But after that, he was human, and as Mark points out, Schilling was the better post-season warrior.
What kills me is how little love Glavine gets in this discussion. Maybe it’s because of his union ties, or going to the Mets. But to me it’s his and Maddux’s DURABILITY and ability to go to the post every 5 days for a decade (remember how much time Smoltz would miss?), that was the core of the 90’s dominance of the Braves.
Without Avery and Smoltz (along with Glavine) the run doesn’t beging. But without Maddux and Glavine, the run ends LONG before it did. Smoltz was maybe responsible (along with guys like Hudson, Ortiz and even Hampton in the beginning) for leading the pitching staff in the last 3 or 4 years of the 14 year run.
But imo, it goes Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz.
I also agree with the poster who said Smoltz will NOT be a first balot HOF guy. I think he gets in, but not on the first try. Just a hunch.
JonnyHairdont
July 16th, 2009
2:22 pm
@KennyP: I am shocked that you’re even mentioning someone who could barely hit 90 on the radar gun. You used to hit triple digits, son! Plus Maddux never once yelled “you’re f*ckin’ out.” I thought I knew you, dude. Next thing I know you’ll be teaching gym back in North Carolina and forgetting about the show, brah.
PS: Who was the best hitter? Glavine had the highest average, most sacrifices and most RBIs. But Smoltz & Maddux hit more homers. Does that make him the best athlete? Apropos of nothing: Glavine hit .289 in 1996 (a full season). And Smoltz hit .274 in 1999 (most of a season). Do you think anyone ever mentioned that to Schafer, Francoeur or Kelly Johnson?
wjones
July 16th, 2009
2:23 pm
Smoltz became a wiser pitcher as he aged, and maybe realized the limitations of his own body. The younger Smoltz could be maddening at times, would be in complete domination of a game, maybe be ahead 6-0, then just lose focus AND the lead! Though he eventually outgrew that, it still has to go into the equation when you are comparing the three, just as his awesome post-season games and his stint as a closer and his multiple surgeries also do. You definitely get a zig-zag pattern with him–some categories with him on top, some with him on the bottom, but rarely in the middle.
One thing I remember about Glavine is that he was so tough in a tight spot that many times Cox would leave a tiring Glavine in to work out of a jam, then take him out afterward because he was generally going to have a better chance of saving the inning than anyone in the pen. Another thing was the fact that Glavine was probably the most complete athlete among 3 very good athletes. Probably the fastest, though Smoltz could give him a “run” for his money. The best hitter by far, with at least one Silver Slugger award, I believe. Didn’t have Smoltz’s power, but had a better sense of his own plate limitations, and succeeded much more. Was an excellent fielder, but maybe comes up last here because the other two were so great. And unlike the young Smoltz, he knew how to hold onto a lead, whether he looked pretty doing it or not. The biggest knock on the wonderfully consistent and tough-as-nails Glavine, was when he would get certain umpires who would not give the corner strikes, he was usually in for a LONG day.
Maddux was perhaps the most intelligent pitcher who ever lived. There are lots of stupid pitchers, but they usually hurt their arm and disappear (John Rocker says hi from oblivion!). On a staff where you had a foolish-when-young-but-wiser-as-he-aged Smoltz, a wonderfully cerebral Glavine, and several older pitchers who in shorter spans lent their wisdom to our staff, Maddux towers over them much the same way as Ruth’s power put him over all the sluggers of his time. I would maintain that Maddux was smarter than any of his pitching coaches (sorry, Leo), or Managers (sorry, Bobby). Which is also saying a lot. It is very uncommon to see pitchers throw less than 100 pitches today, and this is with them being pulled in the 6th inning! With Maddux it was the rule, and he was pitching 8 innings routinely. For whatever reason, Bobby seemed to pull him out earlier than Smoltz or even Glavine (then again, Mad Dog was never on the DL). Maddux was content to let whoever catch him, to give Javy a rest, because Maddux was going to basically call his own game, anyway–the catcher was just along to learn like the rest of us. He did so much stuff, like throwing a pitch to a hitter in ST and having him blast it out of the stadium, then when facing him in the real season doing something with the pitch that made him ground the ball right back to him. Which a lot of hitters did. IIRC, he is the all-time leader in assists by a pitcher, so a lot of come back grounders to him. You had the feeling that nothing ever surprised him, either. He certainly wasn’t perfect, and his losses reflect the human in him, but he was as close as we will probably ever see from a baseball standpoint.
So in summary, as for 11 years we were able to bring to the plate 3 aces while the other teams were struggling to find one, I rate them thusly, while admitting that any of them could start any Game 7 for me:
1. Maddux
2. Glavine
3. Smoltz
BT
July 16th, 2009
2:24 pm
Maddux in a run away. He would possibly make the best pitching coach in the game. When my son was growing up watching the Braves he learned both to lip read and cuss from Maddux as well!
Did you notice how well Bakko would have great leadership skills in the dugout. He could pick up gatorade cups faster than anyone in baseball.
gene garbage
July 16th, 2009
2:28 pm
maddox. smoltz had the best stuff, but as far as a true pitcher, maddox gets the nod. that change up and fast ball that backed up over the plate were something special to see. just wish he’d share his secret with some of the new guys.
RemoW
July 16th, 2009
2:28 pm
N8. You are right. Glavine deserves more credit. I still put it at Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz. Glavine won 20 5 times and that is not by accident. Smoltz had 1 20 win season and was very solid from there on but not like Glavine with 3 20+ in a row.
I love Smoltz and the big fastball is nice in the post season. But Glavine was better over the long haul. But he wasn’t Maddux!
John Tucker
July 16th, 2009
2:31 pm
Greg Maddux was not only a better pitcher than John SMoltz or Tom Glavine, but Madux retired with dignity, did not try to hang on after his arm was shot, and never whined to umps or to the media or threatened to file a grioevance. Maddux was a pro who knew when it was time to quit. The other two are mere shadows of their former selves on the field and get angry when they are held acountable by fans or the front office for being ioover the hill.
neverf whined to umps for calls or whined to the media over how he was treated by the fornt office or threatened to file a grievance because the Braves decided
KennyP
July 16th, 2009
2:32 pm
Jonny – funny thing is that my name really is kenny powers…. believe me, i hear it alot.
And if you are talking about hitting – you have to talk about the HRs – classic Nike commercial “Chicks Dig the Long Ball”
biff pocahontas, uh roba
July 16th, 2009
2:38 pm
just got back in town, did we send hanson down, and if so, why? pls fill me in..thx
thetvaughan
July 16th, 2009
2:41 pm
Of the three, Maddux was the best. In the early to mid 90’s, he was untouchable. He could always put his pitches exactly were he wanted them. He was a true proffessor of the game. I am 30 years old, and I believe he was the best pitcher of my generation.
jason
July 16th, 2009
2:42 pm
I didn’t even read this blog, but in my opinion, I like all three. Maddux is perhaps the smartest pitcher of all time. Glavine is the most relentless I have seen pitch. He never gives in. Stuff wise I go with Smoltz, he is also my go to pitcher when fighting for a World Series.
The A Bomb
July 16th, 2009
2:44 pm
July 22, 1997 — Maddux beats Cubs 4-1 — 78 pitches – complete game.
FROM ESPN: 26 nine-inning CGs of under 100 pitches, 13 of under 95 pitches and six in which he didn’t even throw 90 pitches (a 78, and 82, an 86, an 88 and two 89s).
League of his own. Even Cox wouldn’t pull him. Enough said.
PMC
July 16th, 2009
2:45 pm
Maddux was the Best. Smoltz was my Favorite.
biff pocahontas, uh roba
July 16th, 2009
2:45 pm
oh, and rick mahler was the best. well it’s a tie between him and the mad hungarian. man, i used to love watching his pre-pitch ritual.
Chris
July 16th, 2009
2:46 pm
Mike Jay – Dittos on your comment about Maddox’s walk ratio…And unless intentional walks are not counted in that figure, I would imagine half – to two-thirds of those 25 walks per season were Intentionals?
Jorge
July 16th, 2009
2:47 pm
How can we leave Kent Mercker out of the discussion?
Biff
July 16th, 2009
2:48 pm
How can you possibly leave 1978 All-Star Biff Pocoroba out of the discussion around best catchers of all time? Career .257 hitter with 21 big dingers and 172 RBIs. Eat your heart out McCann!
boots
July 16th, 2009
2:50 pm
George Will once wrote an article on Maddux that would be worthwhile for the AJC to reprint. In it, he described how Maddux was watching a game from the dugout and told a player, you had better move. Two pitches later, a foul ball shot in to the dugout to exactly the spot predicted. In another game, he made a comment that the first base coach was about to be taken to the hospital. A few pitches later, a hard foul ball knocked the coach down.
Above anyone else, Maddux seemed to know… just know… things about how the game worked. He was like a conductor out there. The only bad thing was he had the worse language of any player ever. Any game where we saw him pitch required me to scrub my kid’s ears really well – after Maddux pitched another masterpiece.
DHD
July 16th, 2009
2:51 pm
Maddux was perhaps the smartest pitcher in history. I’ll pick him over Smoltz. Injuries keeps Smoltz from being the best.
Dallis04
July 16th, 2009
2:51 pm
Maddux definitely…the numbers don’t lie and mark you already think he’s one of the greatest 5 pitchers of all time…Glavine and Smoltz don’t come near that. I loved all three…but my favorite Brave of all time happens to be Smoltz…hopefully we can get another core of great pitchers that can do HALF of what these three did for the Braves, although I would like another Championship or two or three or more!
Go Braves!
Barry
July 16th, 2009
2:52 pm
Thanks Mark for a great article. Obviously Maddux was the best, maybe the best of the era. Smoltz was the best in the postseason. But my favorite was Glavine. Glavine almost always gave the Braves a chance to win, even if he didn’t have it that night. Maddux and Smoltz were more prone to getting lit up if they were off, but very rarely with Glavine. What a treat it was for us to have all three. Avery might have been on caliber with them, too, if he hadn’t hurt his arm.
Manny
July 16th, 2009
2:55 pm
I have to also go with Maddux. I used to go to Maddux’s games at home and would still arrive at home in time to watch prime-time TV. His games were just really short, because he used to throw strikes and not walk anyone.
But Glavine and Smoltz were very good and headed to the Hall of Fame, as well.
Glavine used to paint the outside so much that I can still remember “Look away, look away, look away, Dixieland.”
And if it’s the 7th game in the World Series and you had to give the ball to anyone, you just wanted to give that ball to Smoltz. Plus, Smoltz was not just one of our best pitchers, but also one of our best relievers.
So in short, they’re all freaks. But I still have to give it to Maddux because watching him pitch was like watching a math teacher working through Calculus. It was very elementary and business-like. And at the end, you could predict the result.
John
July 16th, 2009
2:57 pm
Maddux > Glavine > Smoltz
Mitchell
July 16th, 2009
2:57 pm
I know our bullpen sucked and we never got any clutch hitting but which one actually gave us a World Series championship?
Yeah, Tom Glavine. Thanks for playing everyone.
In case anybody’s memory needs refreshing, Glavine was the only one to win both of the games he pitched in ‘95. Maddux won one, lost one, Smoltz lost and Avery won. Glavine stepped up and if he hadn’t the Braves would be a laughing stock.
Glavine is the man. The rest of them suck!
Kidding.
Rhonda
July 16th, 2009
2:57 pm
I haven’t read any other comments because I am at work and very busy but I wanted to say, they are all great! GREAT! I love and miss them all!
Jo Bling
July 16th, 2009
2:58 pm
The A Bomb – Thank you for pointing out Maddux’s efficiency. It was simply mind-blowing, especially by today’s standards. I live in Buckhead and I remember leaving my house at 12:30 p.m. on Sunday afternoon for 1:10 Maddux start. I was pulling back into my driveway at 3:20 p.m. after watching the entire game. Unbelievable.
Roger
July 16th, 2009
3:02 pm
There is simply no contest here. “Maddog” wins hands down. Greg Maddux was a delight to watch. He could carve up a batting order like no one else. You never heard Maddux bad-mouthing his former teams. As far as I know, Greg never said anything out of order when traded. I used to watch Greg every fifth day and loved it. He had pinpoint control and when he was in his prime he put on a pitching clinic nearly every start. Greg Maddux was simply the best.
timthebrave
July 16th, 2009
3:02 pm
Maddux was the greatest pitcher I have ever seen. I could get to the game at 7 PM and go home happy by 9 PM. Smoltz would be 2nd and Glavine 3rd. ALL of them deserve to be in the hall of fame
Doug
July 16th, 2009
3:04 pm
I could see Glavine being #2. The guy always gave his team a chance to win when he took the mound. He always seemed to pitch to his run support (get 6 runs give up 4, get 3 runs give up 1, etc.) I never remember TG being considered the #3 guy during the ’90s, even when Smoltz won the Cy Young it was more a 2a & 2b.
Glavine gets a lot of undue flack in Atlanta for things not related to his performance on the field. And Smoltz gets place a little high on the pedistal because he was the last guy standing from the big 3.
I would probably put Smoltz second due to his late career success, but it’s really splitting hairs between John and Tom.
Collegedude
July 16th, 2009
3:05 pm
Smoltz had the best stuff, Maddux was the most consistent, and Glavine was along for the ride.
Braindawg
July 16th, 2009
3:05 pm
No doubt Maddawg was the best. Although I rooted for Smoltz the most. And Glav. was right there with my all time favorte Braves. I will always been thankful to all of them for the time and effort they all put into their craft. For bringing Atlanta a true winner. I suffered through the 100 loss seasons, grew up wondering if we’d ever be any good. Was teased by the 82 team, then the following year they went back to just plain stinking again. So thanks to all three of them. But to me Maddawg was the ace of the staff. The man had amazing control, he could knock a knat off a flys a$$, and the fly never feel a thing. That is all, Later!
UNCBrave
July 16th, 2009
3:09 pm
Maddux and not close…
15 straight seasons of 15+ wins
18 Gold Gloves
2 Cy Youngs
Not even close
El Bravo
July 16th, 2009
3:10 pm
The fact that MadDog doesn’t get 100% of the vote on this poll really showcases how many people overlook his accomplishments because he did not have “filthy” stuff. In reality this is not even close. Tommy and John were excellent pitchers. Greg Maddux was one of the five greatest of all times…
Justin
July 16th, 2009
3:18 pm
Well said Max
whataboutavery??
July 16th, 2009
3:23 pm
1. Avery 2. Chris Reitsma 3. Dan Kolb…then maddux, smoltz, glavine.
The Dust
July 16th, 2009
3:34 pm
It’s all about championships folks. Though Smoltzy has a great playoff resume, Glavine is the MVP of Atlanta’s only World Series title. Maddux was a flake in October. Cox and Maddux go hand in hand. I’ll take Torre and Pettitte over that.
turkey
July 16th, 2009
3:35 pm
The question should be other than the the big three who as the best?
braveslifer
July 16th, 2009
3:37 pm
Come on people how come there are no mentions of Tommy Boggs, Rick Camp, Larry McWilliams or Rick Mahler?
Seriously, when you can toss out Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux, Neikro and Spahn that is a pretty good starting 5 for a teams history.
JonnyHairdont
July 16th, 2009
3:59 pm
@KennyP. Funny about your name. I’m sure you’ve seen Office Space? “You can just call me Mike.”
The Chicks Dig The Long Ball commercial was one of my favorite of all time. Even with TBS, I always thought the Braves were nationally under-appreciated. That commercial sort of changed my mind. I wonder if Smoltz punched something any time it came on? The whole thing is pretty ironic in hindsight. Heather Locklear, the typical casual fan, wants to see home runs instead of great pitching. The best pitching duo of the decade are chopped liver, so they bulk up… and then everyone was on steroids. Thanks for ruining baseball, Nike.
Dan
July 16th, 2009
4:01 pm
I think Maddux by just a small bit. All three guys were great pitchers, each did it a different way..while Smoltz could dominate guys at times, Glavine and Maddux were the ultimate definition of pitchers. I would take any one of those 3 guys against anyone anytime and take my chances.
SavBev
July 16th, 2009
4:02 pm
I saw someone mention that John Smoltz was a “stopper.” We should not forget that many years during the 90’s there was simply no one better at stopping a losing streak than Tom Glavine. I believe it was either 1992 or 1995 that he was something like 13-0 pitching after a Braves loss.
We may begrudge the sour tastes left in our mouth after the defection to the Stinkin’ Mets but he is as worthy of being pantheon of Braves greats as Smoltz, Murphy, Chipper, and Aaron.
FreeMikeVick
July 16th, 2009
4:08 pm
Just another article ignoring the real best Atlanta sports legend…..Mike Vick.