The Hot Button: Glavine, Maddux or Smoltz – who was best?
Tom Glavine was the one who got it all going and who was MVP of the only World Series the Atlanta Braves won, and John Smoltz was the one who saw the run of excellence through until its ridiculously delayed end. They were great pitchers, first-ballot Hall of Famers. Greg Maddux was more than just a great pitcher. He was the greatest of his era — yes, this includes Roger Clemens — and among the five greatest ever.
Glavine had more 20-win seasons (five to Maddux’s two, and one of the two was as a Cub). Smoltz was more utilitarian (a 24-win season and a 55-save season). But Maddux stands above his longtime companions — first among equals, if you will — because of his matchless consistency.
The Braves will induct Mad Dog — or “Doggie,” or, as Bobby Cox sometimes had it, just “Mad” — into their Hall of Fame tomorrow, and such a designation for this particular pitcher seems slightly off. Maddux was never really “famous” in the way Clemens was famous. (Then again, Clemens is now infamous.) Maddux was just without peer at what he did, and what he did, in his unassuming words, was to “try and make pitches and get guys out.” (See YouTube video below, courtesy of Fox Sports.)
For 17 consecutive seasons, Maddux won at least 15 games. (Yes, that’s a record.) Yes, the first five and the final one came as a Cub, but think of it this way: In the winter of 1992 the Braves signed a free agent who would, without fail, give them at least 15 victories in every season for more than a decade. Not for nothing did Stan Kasten call Maddux “the greatest free-agent signing ever,” and the only one that rivals him is the guy who signed with San Francisco a few days earlier at those same winter meetings at the Galt House in Louisville, Ky. — Barry Bonds.
From 1992 through 1995, Maddux was almost as dominant as Sandy Koufax was from 1963 through 1966, which figures to stand forever as the finest string of pitching the game has ever known. (Koufax had an ERA under 2.00 in three of those four years; Maddux had an ERA under 2.00 in two of his four.) But here’s the difference: After 1966, Koufax never threw another pitch. After 1995, Maddux won 205 more games.
My neighbor Dan Reagan, who used to direct Braves telecasts for TBS and who now does games for ESPN, used to get irritated because the national media never affixed an aura to Maddux. He was never a Clemens, a Pedro, a Big Unit. He was just … Greg Maddux. Which was fine with Greg Maddux.
Indeed, I once asked Maddux about Randy Johnson, and Maddux shrugged — Maddux was big on shrugging — and said, “He throws his slider harder than I throw my fastball.” He also said, of Johnson’s famous sobriquet, “Only good players get cool nicknames.”
Loading ...But here’s the thing: With his underwhelming fastball and his modest nickname, Maddux outpitched the Big Unit, outpitched Pedro, outpitched even Clemens. Yes, Clemens had more Cy Youngs — seven to Maddux’s four — but Clemens also had four seasons in the ’90s where he totaled 40 victories. And nobody ever suggested Maddux would test positive for anything other than trans fats. (Don Sutton: “Greg Maddux’s idea of training is to run, not walk, to Burger King.”)
In the 10 seasons of the exalted partnership, we Atlantans were spoiled beyond measure. We saw three bound-for-Cooperstown pitchers take regular turns, feeding off one another as they went. We saw Glavine with the changeup and Smoltz with the slider, and somehow the guy we noticed least was the best of the three.
Greg Maddux didn’t really do anything special. He just made pitches and got guys out. Except that he made most all the pitches and got nearly every guy out every fifth day of his baseball life.
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207 comments Add your comment
GravyTrain
July 16th, 2009
1:11 pm
Avery was injured and never was himself afterword.
Pete
July 16th, 2009
1:12 pm
I think Maddox by a hair but think about this – would any of them have been as consistantly good without the others? There is something about knowing the rest of the rotation is going to hold up their end that enables a pitcher to do his thing at a higher level in my opinion. In fact, would they have been as good without the rest of the team? While I think a pitcher can certainly win or lose a game for you, if there was no support behind them on defense in the field and on offense at the plate, would they have been as good? Great, yes but to the level they were?
As a side note, I was hosting a national conference here in ‘96 and was looking for “big night” someting to do. I suggested the Braves game but during the meeting planning in June, no one else on the board of directors was willing to commmit much less admit the Braves would be playing in October.
NO MORE BOBBY
July 16th, 2009
1:13 pm
Your really nailing your recent post. Good job!
I would have to take Smoltz because of his work in the postseason. Maddux would be my choice if he ever showed up in the playoffs (has a losing record). Plus I think Smoltz was an overall better Brave. Team leader, starting pitcher, great reliever….. yep! Smoltz wins!
Plus I would like to see him come back and manage the Braves at some point.
Mark Bradley
July 16th, 2009
1:15 pm
Thanks, Dink.
And I preferred Zane Smith to Pete Smith.
Jim
July 16th, 2009
1:17 pm
Greg Maddux is #1 by far.
My opinion is that Smoltz and Glavine were probably better pitchers because of Maddux.
Pete
July 16th, 2009
1:19 pm
@TECHnicallySpeaking at 1:00,
I seem to remember some horriffically bad base running by Lonnie Smith in a very loud Metrodome that cost us the series in ‘91.
The Truth
July 16th, 2009
1:20 pm
I know Gravy as that was what the club told us in the media but they never really said what happened? Maybe Mark can find out…..
elliot
July 16th, 2009
1:23 pm
Maddux is one of the greatest pitchers that has ever played. Glavine and Smoltz have had tremendous, hall-of-fame careers but you can’t say the same thing about them. Sadly the Braves organization somehow managed to blow them all out the door.
HAL
July 16th, 2009
1:23 pm
if jj.s command gets a lil better he could be mad dog2
Bama Aaron
July 16th, 2009
1:26 pm
Nice blog Mark. I think the best way to determine this is if it’s game 7 of the series who do you want on the mound. It has to be Maddox. Yes, I understand Smoltz has 1 of the best postseason records ever and I’d put him 2nd. I appreciate everything Glavine did for Atlanta, but I never was much of a fan of his…he’s 3rd.
bry22
July 16th, 2009
1:27 pm
Not even close on who the best pitcher was. Mad Dog by a mile!
jconservative
July 16th, 2009
1:27 pm
Mark, really wonderful writing.
I always said during their run that if I absolutely had to have a win,
I would put Glavine on the mound.
RHR
July 16th, 2009
1:28 pm
It’s not even close….Maddux.
scoreboard
July 16th, 2009
1:28 pm
Maddux was the best pitcher.
Smoltz was the best playoff pitcher and the best Brave.
Glavine was the best union representative.
And, Mark, put me down for Bako in your next poll. That dude was awesome…
Mark Bradley
July 16th, 2009
1:29 pm
Avery did hurt his arm. When he arrived in Boston after the Braves let him leave, he had nothing on his fastball. He’d become a junkballer, if you recall. It was painful to watch.
Steve Avery = great guy, by the way.
LSU
July 16th, 2009
1:29 pm
When MLB changed the strike zone several seasons ago, Maddux & Glavine were hurt by it, Power pitchers like Smoltz weren’t affected as much….You give me a choice of all 3 players in their prime for 1 big game, and I’d go with Glavine, probably because of the 95 WS…As for who was the best of the 3, I think a good argument can be made for any of the 3 as being the best. I don’t really have a preference, but after reading some of the things you had said about Smoltz over his career, he sounds like an insecure prima donna.
Mark, to answer you question in the other blog. I used to use AJC as a screen name before LSU.
Father of 5
July 16th, 2009
1:31 pm
Pitching talent/production alone, no contest: GM, JS, then TG. Overall package, no player has ever meant more to this city than JS.
KSG
July 16th, 2009
1:32 pm
Your question asks who was the best of the three. That was clearly Maddux. If you asked who was the best Brave, then it would be either Glavine or Smoltz.
Chris
July 16th, 2009
1:37 pm
Steve Avery was my favorite Brave as a youngster. (I’m the guy born in the most recent ‘87.) Hope he’s had a good retirement.
Jammie
July 16th, 2009
1:39 pm
Glavine was a great pitcher, although I would rank Doggie ahead of him. Some folks here seems to be using their hate for Glavine because he pitched for the hated Mets to discount his accomplishments. However let us put that aside and give the man credit for what he did as a Brave from 1987 up until the time he left for the Mets. 5 twenty wins season is nothing to sneeze at, plus he was so tough in the playoffs. Holding that Indians line up scoreless and giving us the only World Series title means a lot to me, and will never tarnish my memory of him as a Brave and a clutch pitcher. Smoltz was never always consistent earlier, and in fact could be wild on occasions, especially when Dr.Llewlyn ( the teams Psychologist)was not around. However he was Clutch in the post season. Maddux was not as stellar in the post season like Glav and smoltz were, but he had most to do with the Braves making it to the post season. They all owe a debt of gratitude to Andruw from 96 onwards, as he changed several of what would have been hits to outs due to his ability in centerfield. We were all fortunate to have witnessed three Hall of famers pitching here. We truly should have won more WS.
CLE
July 16th, 2009
1:40 pm
Maddux is the greatest of the three. Man, he was fun to watch pitch. He also a great, dry sense of humor. I got to attend a school media day thing at Turner Field when I was in high school on the newspaper staff. During the conference, when asked if he avoids stepping on the first base line out of superstition as other pitchers do, Maddux told us, straight faced, “No. I just have respect for the grounds crew.”
CLTDawg
July 16th, 2009
1:41 pm
Maddux easily. Don’t forget to include Johnny Estrada in your catcher’s poll (I personally always thought that was a name for the adult entertainment industry).
What is Avery up to these days?
Chris
July 16th, 2009
1:42 pm
Maddux = best of the three, no question.
Though Smoltz gives him a run for the money with how he was a “stopper.” As a fan – and I’m sure as a player – you knew Smoltz could plug a losing streak.
dogsbrekky
July 16th, 2009
1:44 pm
Thank you so much for that video
I would take any of the 3 but Maddux was so good over so long, he even busted one of Cy Young’s records in an era with 5 of the top 10 hr hitters or all time, lowered mounds etc etc etc
16 consecutive 15/15+ win seasons is freakish..
Mark Bradley – Postseason I like Smoltz and Petite as well as Curt
Bank Walker, Texas Ranger
July 16th, 2009
1:45 pm
Love Avery, named a kid after him. I’ll take Z Smith but I would add a chin. One of my all time favorites was Buzz Capra. For one season, he may have been the best Brave ever but a simple blood blister ruined that. As for these three, I’ll refer to a post yesterday. These three are like comparing Salma Hayek, Eva Mendes and Demi Moore. (Glavine is Demi) You’d take Demi if you didn’t have the other two to pick from.
KennyP
July 16th, 2009
1:45 pm
In an era overhyped with speed and power, we had this pitcher who focused on precision and poise, and became the best of his time. Great article, thank you for this tribute to the greatest Brave ever!
puppydawg
July 16th, 2009
1:46 pm
Give me Mad Dog for 8 innings, then Smoltzie to shut ‘em down in the 9th.
Bank Walker, Texas Ranger
July 16th, 2009
1:47 pm
Postseason I’d take (1) Smoltz (2) Beckett & (3)Schilling
Fillies Feeling Frightfully Philharmonic
July 16th, 2009
1:47 pm
Madduz
Glavine
Smoltz in order but without injuries, who knows, then again Glavine won over so long playing so much pain that many pitchers could NOT take..
My favorite thing about getting killed by Maddux for so long was his farewell press conference where as usual he was man enough to pay tribute to Glavine and remember stories and names of the SHEA bullpen security staff and the like.
Maddux = class act all the way
dogsbrekky
July 16th, 2009
1:49 pm
Bank Walker
Demi 1
Salma 2
Mendes not in the same league, sorry
TurnThePage
July 16th, 2009
1:51 pm
I say Greg Maddux. He was the best starting pitcher consistently during his time in the bigs. He was meticulous. As far as great guys on the Braves pitching staff, Kevin Millwood was cool. I went to Spring Training for a week back when the Braves were in West Palm Beach. Millwood found out I was from the same neck of the woods that he was from and invited me and a friend to his apartment. His roommate was Damian Moss. Millwood came out and found me every day and talked for a while. He made the team that year.
elliot
July 16th, 2009
1:52 pm
anyone know what Matt “Beans” Franco is up to these days ? Is he working in Hollywood ? He should be.
TurnThePage
July 16th, 2009
1:53 pm
If Smoltzie would have started or relieved only during his career, we might be seeing things a little different.
doubledawg
July 16th, 2009
1:54 pm
WHAT TIME WILL THE CEREMONY BEGIN ON FRIDAY?
Mike S
July 16th, 2009
1:57 pm
I would have to go with Maddux as the best overall of the three. That said, if it was a “Season on the line” game, I would want Smoltz pitching just because he could be so overpowering; but over the long haul I would rather have maddux on my roster for a full season if I had to choose.
MY favorite Maddux moment was his 71 pitch (or was it 79) complete game masterpiece. I don’t even remember the opponent (may have been the Padres), all I remember is it seemed to be step into the back, Maddux pitches, OUT. I was in awe – 9 innings and less than 80 pitches – unbelievable.
LSU
July 16th, 2009
1:57 pm
I can’t believe John Burkett’s name is not in the mix.
Roja
July 16th, 2009
1:58 pm
Best pure pitcher? John Smoltz without equivocation.
Best Atlanta pitcher to never live in Atlanta? Greg Maddux.
Best Braves pitcher not named John, Greg, Phil or Warren? Tom Glavine.
Mike S
July 16th, 2009
1:58 pm
That should have read “step into the box” not back
ppaddy123
July 16th, 2009
2:00 pm
Greg Maddux and, to a certain degree, Tom Glavine, are two excellent examples why radar guns shouldn’t be used exclusively to evaluate a pitcher’s potential. It seems all we ever hear about are kids that throw in the mid to upper 90’s. Velocity is less important than movement, location and changing speeds. Pete and Skip, and Don Sutton and Ernie talked about it for years during the TV broadcasts. Just ask Javier Vasquez. This recent string of quality starts he has had can be directly linked to the excellent change-up he’s been throwing. Mark, the video was vintage Mad Dog. It should be mandatory viewing for every pitcher the Braves sign. MAKE GOOD PITCHES!.
Sting 'em Buzz
July 16th, 2009
2:01 pm
TECHnicallySpeaking, Smoltz did not give up a run in Game 7 of the 1991 World Series. Alejandro Peña did.
a643dp
July 16th, 2009
2:01 pm
Mark, I think Glavine voted 17 times you need to watch him.
The Truth
July 16th, 2009
2:02 pm
Thanks Mark, I had forgotten about his stint in Boston. You know the real bottom line in this whole debate is that when you had any of the three pitching for you, your chances of winning were very high. But, we are coming up to Maddux’s day so we should take the time to state how great he was. Here is the ultiimate point, I bet it will be many years if ever that we will see THREE HALL OF FAME STARTERS IN THE SAME ROTATION EVER AGAIN!!!! Thanks for the blog Mark
Dave in Buford
July 16th, 2009
2:03 pm
Maddux and it isn’t even close. If you look only at career wins, the list of the top ten in history is mostly prior to 1919 … only Warren Spahn has won more in the so-called “Modern Era” than Maddux.
But you have to look closer to truly understand his abilities … he was the first to have consecutive seasons of ERA under 1.80 since Walter Johnson … 75 years later. Since Walter Johnson, only five pitchers have recorded an ERA under 1.65 … Bob Gibson and Luis Tiant in 1968 (the last year of the “elevated mound”), Dwight Gooden in 1985 and Maddux … TWICE.
He led the National League in ERA one six year stretch four times and was second the other two seasons.
In 1997, he went to a 3-0 count on one batter … the entire 1997 season. He beat the Cubs in a complete game that year by throwing 76 pitches.
In 2001, he went 73 1/3 innings without issuing a walk.
Greg Maddux was the best pitcher of his generation and quite possibly the entire 20th Century.
Tom
July 16th, 2009
2:05 pm
Enter your comments here
Tom
July 16th, 2009
2:06 pm
Maddox The only one smart enough to keep his mouth shut and not bash the Braves and also the one who knew when it was time to retire
Bank Walker, Texas Ranger
July 16th, 2009
2:07 pm
Dogs, showing your age. Eva number 1 in AskMen.com, Demi not in the mix like Glavine. You need to check out the Calvin Kline adds. sheeeezz
Shoeless Joe
July 16th, 2009
2:07 pm
Maddux was probably the best pitcher of the three, although not the best ambassador the game has ever seen…too standoffish for my taste. I’ve been to spring training a number of years and seen both Smoltz and Glavine sign for extended periods of time. Maddux made it a habit of only signing once a day and that was typically limited to two or three lucky fans who were in the right spot. He seemed to really get off on being a prima donna.
TurnThePage
July 16th, 2009
2:07 pm
ppaddy123, that is a great point about radar guns. If radar guns were the determining factor as far as how good a pitcher is, no one would hit Manny Acosta. Steve Carlton had great stuff early in his career but as he got older, the radar gun would have shown that he didn’t have the fastball he once did but was still very tough.
Bank Walker, Texas Ranger
July 16th, 2009
2:09 pm
Dave, great points. Did Maddux get recruited by Buford HS?
#2 is Tommy
July 16th, 2009
2:09 pm
I agree that Maddux was the best, though I think Glavine, not Smoltz, competes. Two of Maddux’s four Cys (1992 and 1993) would probably have gone to Glavine if Maddux hadn’t received them, and don’t forget that Glavine picked up two Cys on his own (each seven years(!) apart, 1991 and 1998) while Maddux was in the league and in his prime. Glavine and Maddux both often won about an amazing 20 games per season during that time; Smoltz had only one 20+ win season during the 90’s and generally won about 15 games/season, if that. That’s a great comparison because they were all three playing on the same team. Glavine and Maddux also had many more sub-3.00 ERA seasons during that time than Smoltz (5 for Glavine, 7 for Maddux, 2 for Smoltz). Also don’t forget that Glavine was the ace of the Braves staff before Maddux arrived, and when Maddux showed up, Glavine, not Smoltz, was the Braves’ #2 in the rotation. So during all three pitchers’ primes, it was Glavine and Maddux who consistently went head-to-head for best pitcher in the NL. Except for 1996, Smoltz’s absurdly dominant year, Smoltz wasn’t on the same level with Glavine and Maddux.
I think people forget just how dominating Glavine was back in the 90’s because of the Mets debacle, and because he continued starting throughout his twilight years so as to reach that magic 300-win number. Smoltz will never reach 300 because he is not the durable pitcher that Glavine and Maddux both are/were. Even if Smoltz had been injury-free and avoided the bullpen, it is doubtful Smoltz would ever have reached 300 wins. Moreover, Glavine has more complete games and more shutouts in his career, which may surprise some people.
All in all, Glavine was a better pitcher than Smoltz when both were in their primes, and his overall career numbers are also more impressive. He loses the popularity contest I guess b/c Smoltz stayed with the Braves (well, sort of), but he will stand out historically in a way Smoltz will not. Only Warren Spahn is a better left-hander historically.