Bradley’s Buzz: Overrated = DeAngelo, Brooking and Vick
No. 7 is No. 2 on ESPN’s list
It’s the most loaded word in the lexicon of sports, and it’s not “steroids.” It’s “overrated.” Use it and you’ll start an argument. Aaron Schatz of Football Outsiders, writing for ESPN.com’s Insiders Web site, starts 25 arguments in one fell swoop, listing the most overrated NFL players of the past decade. (Link requires registration.)
DeShaun Foster holds the unenviable No. 1 spot, and I wouldn’t object: I’ve never seen him as anything more than an average tailback. But DeShaun Foster isn’t why we’re here. We’re here to identify the three former Falcons who cracked Schatz’s top 11, presented here — with Schatz’s full commentary — in descending order:
2. Michael Vick: Even before Vick’s sordid off-field activities came to light, he was a disappointing No. 1 overall pick. Vick was a great runner, sure, but when he dropped back to pass, he turned into Tyler Thigpen or Derek Anderson, quarterbacks who are close to Vick’s career averages of 6.7 yards per pass attempt, 1.4 touchdowns for every interception and 52.8 completion percentage. His upside at this point is “Best Wildcat Quarterback,” not best NFL quarterback.
10. DeAngelo Hall: There is a difference between an athlete and a football player, and Hall is a prime example. He looks amazing, thanks to his athletic skills (primarily speed), so you don’t notice when guys catch 100 yards worth of hooks and slants on him. Washington gave him a huge contract based on half a season, apparently ignoring the miserable player he was for Oakland and the only slightly above-average player he was for Atlanta. (In his defense, our research has shown that there are only two players this decade whose success on turnover returns is more than just statistical noise: Hall and Ed Reed.)
11. Keith Brooking: A good outside linebacker whose skills don’t fit well as a 4-3 middle linebacker, but year after year he was forced back into the middle by injuries to other Falcons linebackers. His biggest problems came in pass coverage, one reason why the Falcons ranked among the worst defenses against opposing tight ends for the entire decade.
Loading ...My take: I always though D-Hall yielded as many big plays as he made, and his excesses — the three penalties on one Carolina drive in 2007 being the most egregious example — undercut his obvious talent. I never thought Brooking was as overblown as you bloggers insisted, but neither did I believe he was nearly as good a linebacker as Jessie Tuggle, either. As for the other guy:
I’ll have to disagree. On Dec. 23, 2004, Arthur Blank — who had just bestowed that $130 million contract on Vick — said: “Michael wins the way he wins.” And that winning, at least from 2002 through 2004, wasn’t really a function of his passing numbers. He terrified defenses in a way no other quarterback ever has. And if you say, “Well, he wasn’t really a quarterback,” I’ll disagree with that, too.
I say again: Vick was miscast as administrator of the West Coast Offense, but he still managed to keep his team vibrant until the end of the Mora/Knapp reign of error. And we’ll always wonder what Vick coulda/woulda done under Bobby Petrino, who was so enthused by his new student he told a Falcon bigwig he believed the team would average — average — 30 points a game.
Some of you, I realize, might see it differently. And while you’re mounting your rebuttal …
A couple of more nuggets regarding MV7
According to Jason Cole of Yahoo! Sports, Vick might not be playing in the NFL again anytime soon. Quoting unnamed sources, Cole reports that commissioner Roger Goodell is leaning toward extending Vick’s suspension through the 2009 season. Which could mean: Hello, UFL.
And it would be a shame if Vick couldn’t play in the NFL this season if for no other reason than USA Today’s Nate Davis just went to the trouble of breaking down all 32 league options.
(Oh, in case you missed it: Three Falcons also made Aaron Schatz’s rankings of the most underrated players of the past decade. Find out which three here.)
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111 comments Add your comment
The Truth
June 30th, 2009
12:25 pm
Dan…you must be kidding. Being overrated or underrated has nothing to do with ticket sales or merchandise. He is far from being the number one player in Falcons history based on his statistics that you proclaim. Saying he is the most important player in Falcons history is like saying saying William Andrews was the greatest rusher of all time. Andrews, unfortunately, lost his career to injury not stupidity. Vick, great athlete who could run but he was not a good field general and had no accuracy on his passing one bit whatsoever.
Please wake up and stop smoking the illegal stuff man…..
rhynster
June 30th, 2009
12:25 pm
There has been alot of revisionist history regarding Vick.
He was exciting, and he made plays that no one else could make.
He doesn’t need to be Peyton Manning or Johnny Unitas.
He just needs that X-factor that made him a winner.
Only problem is that nobody knows if he still has it after the last couple of years.
Chesterfield Unry
June 30th, 2009
12:28 pm
MV had running and throwing (notice I didn’t say passing) talent but lacked leadership qualities on and off the field. For so long, MV’s physical talent made up for his clear lack of mental skills. In the NFL, all gets vetted.
MV’s physical talent was never underrated, but his lack of leadership skills was overlooked by many.
Name (required)
June 30th, 2009
12:36 pm
Good god….all the Ron Mexico apologists are sickening.
wxwax
June 30th, 2009
12:37 pm
Michael Vick twice brought playoff success to the Atlanta Falcons. No question that had Dan Reeves stayed, Vick would have been a more consistent, productive quarterback. (Ultimately, however, he would still have self-destructed – it was in his DNA.)
I’m as interested in Bobby Petrino’s opinion of Vick’s upside as I am Tommy Bowden’s. Petrino is a college coach who was the Flying Dutchman of the NFL — adrift, lost and more likely to sink than make port. His opinion has no value whatsoever.
A George
June 30th, 2009
12:46 pm
Falcon fans really seem to forget all the great moments Michael gave us. I remember him in the Dallas loss. What about the Pittsburgh game. He did struggle against some teams, but the offensive line was horrible. Also, the defense was even worse. Michael only had ONE losing season as a Falcon…. something no other quarterback could ever say. I would argue he is the only Falcon quarterback with a winning record!!!
mdk
June 30th, 2009
12:48 pm
More to Vick than just the dog fighting conviction –
The Mike Vick conviction incident has been talked about until, if you are like me, folks skip over the print that reminds us who Mike Vick is and why he’s being written about. This will no doubt be written on his tombstone. But let’s remember the events preceding this where die hard football fans began losing confidence in his ability to LEAD the Falcons.
Dan Reeves once said that Michael Vick was a natural leader and many of his team mates gravitated to him. This is a fact that I cannot dispute for I have the utmost respect for Dan Reeves as a person. However, leaders have the ability to lead in several different directions and obviously pull his followers with him.
The on-field examples of poor leadership were displayed in different ways:
– “The Fingers”
– Ignoring OC Knapp on sideline
– Never conversing with teammates
– The ultimate – Who can forget the game late in his last season when the Falcons needed two scores to stay in the game. The Falcons were driving with minutes left in the 4th quarter. Vick scrambled for the necessary yardage to become the 1st QB to rush for 1000 yards in a season. He began celebrating by raising his arms in the air while slowly jogging back to the huddle. By the way, we lost the game.
The off-field examples of poor leadership have been well chronicled:
– The Ron Mexico incident
– The water bottle incident
– Trespassing to fish on a private lake
– Not showing up for public commitments
My kids were Michael Vick fans. Who could say that he wasn’t the most exciting player in the league! But after he used the finger(s) to his own fans and the personal record celebration, the two young Vick fans were no more. Again, this preceded any federal charges.
A leader takes a vision and sells it to his/her followers. Great leaders do not always support a noble cause (i.e.; Hitler). What was Michael Vick’s cause? Was it team oriented?
To take a much often used saying from the Spider-Man movie: “With great power comes great responsibility.” Michael Vick did not understand this. Let’s hope he gets it in his next chapter. After-all, he is a natural leader.
TIGER TIME
June 30th, 2009
12:48 pm
That is atrue statement if there ever was one.Wheres Al Sharpton race monger and savior for all blackfolks.
Ken Stallings
June 30th, 2009
12:50 pm
It’s hard for me to focus on Michael Vick’s play on the field. Because I’m one of those folks who think character does matter. It wasn’t just Vick’s infamous dog ring. He started giving me the creeps with his “Ron Mexico” sex-capades. Not even caring enough to avoid infecting a woman with STD goes to the heart of whether someone has the basic moral chemistry of a human being!
But then said person reveals the depth of the depravity when for the sake of money, he dons that jersey for a commercial, with Nike continuing their slide to hell with a marketing campaign attached to the alias he treated the Herpes under!
People like these bask in the limelight of noteriety. They seem to glorify in their ability to “get away” with offensive behavior.
It was at this point I realized the path Vick was on even as I underestimated how badly he screw up his future. I don’t believe people who lack such basic morality can succeed in anything, particularly a game that puts a premium on challenging one’s ability to lead others and endure hardship and adversity.
A player doesn’t need to be a saint. Groupies in locker rooms is a known thing. But womanizing in and of itself isn’t what Vick managed to revel in. He and his “posse” seemed constantly on the lookout for opportunities to flaunt law, such as the “false bottomed water bottle,” or the “theft of the Rolex” from a security screener. One can unfortunately add to this list.
I firmly believe a prime reason why Vick never seemed able to lead a team past expectations is that he lacked the character to endure. He was a spoiled athlete who too frequently survived legal offenses that would have ruined most people. He got his second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth chances and it emboldened him to think his talent made his special, above the law.
That’s not the kind of person who can lead a team to a Super Bowl and win it. There’s a difference between “chasing skirts,” and raping women! The physical act may be similar, but it’s all about the methods involved! With Mike Vick, the methods involved went past all boundaries.
A George
June 30th, 2009
12:59 pm
Wow, it is really amazing all the God fearing perfect people who watch football games!!! Michael made a lot of mistakes.. but mistakes have followed many men who had nothing, then overnight they got fame and fortune. The people who want Mike banned for life, well what about Stallworth???? Okay, he was drunk and killed somebody, but he should play – because he is not a convicted felon? I really want Mike to come back to the league (I really wish Tampa Bay) and kill the Falcons EVERY time he plays them. You bandwagon fans are the same ones who were so happy when he won games with his athletic ability – and I mean really when he beat Minn, Carolina, etc. on last second plays!!!!!!!!!!!!
Chesterfield Unry
June 30th, 2009
1:00 pm
mdk
I don’t recall Dan Reeves saying MV was a “natural leader” but I won’t dispute you on it either. What I will add to your fine commentary is my own interpretation of that Reeves comment. Reeves clearly knew what MV would need, and was lacking, to bring consistent success to the Falcons – leadership. MV’s physical talents impressed other players but any “natural leadership” Reeves may have been referring to should probably be interpreted as “what MV needs to improve” or “what the Falcons may miss with MV.”
Jables
June 30th, 2009
1:02 pm
Um…for those who smack talk KB, how quickly we forget: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0608/gallery.nfl.most.feared/content.4.html
Vick sucks. Hall sucks. KB was a beast and the leader for a team that needed one desperately in recent years. Bugger off, the whole lot of you!
in the biz
June 30th, 2009
1:04 pm
For your next list, how about overrated AJC columnists …
1) Furman bisher
2) Bradley/Schultz – aren’t they just the same guy anyway
3) Terrence Moore – third because he’s now both irrelevant AND gone..
Whopper Dawg
June 30th, 2009
1:05 pm
I would swap DHalll with Vick, but otherwise I don’t have a problem with the rankings. Mark, you have hit rock bottom if you need a statement by Bobby Petrino in regard to professional football to support your position.
That first time I saw Matt Ryan play for the Falcons, I almost cried it had been so long since I have seen a Falcons QB actually do QB things. Read a defense, ball fake, step up in the pocket – It was a wondrous day.
hem o'roid
June 30th, 2009
1:07 pm
Some are snotty, some are slick—to sum up stupid, say michael vick. Selah
Chuck
June 30th, 2009
1:20 pm
Good point about the West Coast offense – it was a disasterous fit for his playing style. Dan Reeves’ offense was a much, much better match.
Jfreak
June 30th, 2009
1:23 pm
I love Michael Vick for what he ment to this Franchise! Remember where we were prior to Vick and Blank?? Of course Vick made some bad decisions off the field that caused this same franchise harm but all in all Vick to me was not over-rated but I wouldn’t trade Matt Ryan for three michael vicks. I wish Vick well and hope that he gets a chance to play again, but we’ve moved on to better things.
jarvis
June 30th, 2009
1:38 pm
How can someone say Deion was overrated? He’s the best cover corner in the history of the league. He may not have been a great tackeler, but it didn’t come up that often since his man never seemed to have the ball.
Al Beeski
June 30th, 2009
1:46 pm
MB,
Really agree with your take on all 3 dirty birds, especially MV7; bottom line he won games with his ability that NO OTHER Qb in history has been able to do.Weird list; b/c how in da world/who in da world rated Deshaun Foster in the 1st place. Anybody that runs for 2 staxx (j.lewis)in a single season can’t be overrated. SORRY, that’s not gonna fly. Tough to justify others, (WHO IN DA #$%# RATED Freddy Jones II) because the only way to be overrated is get rated in the 1st place. And basically, the media has to rate someone in the 1st place. But everyone knows that the mothership recognizes a slow season so they create all kinds of lists, etc. to get arguments and promote ESPYs.
Vick Supporter
June 30th, 2009
1:53 pm
It’s good to see people actually saying positive things about The Great Mike Vick. Can’t blog with u guys right now…I’m actually working,lol
RedTailHawk
June 30th, 2009
2:04 pm
MAXWELL SNARK: “NEWS FOR YOU – sitting in jail involutarily IS paing your debt to society. If you want to go further, it is an option, NOT a requirement.Heard of the phrase “paying your debt to society”?
A. CALHOUN: Yeah, let’s be fair. We should lock up all illegal drug users. Let’s see, that would be about 40% of all Americans (including marijuana users, and prescription drug abusers). That would be about 80% of MLB players.
Now lets lock up all the illegal gamblers: That would be about 50% of Americans. (including office pool betters, casual betters, internet poker players, etc.) Oh, and if you consult anyone about a bet lets add RICO charges for conspiracy and racketeering.
Just want to be fair and make sure all you righteous self-serving criminals get your just due..
Reid Adair
June 30th, 2009
2:06 pm
Mark, I will agree with you somewhat about the former #7. He was good at what he could do, and that did win some football games. However, his passing was atrocious. He was terrible at reading receivers and working with timing routes. The whole concept of “Go deep and I’ll throw it to you” was nice when they could hit a big play, but otherwise, it was sad.
He may have “terrorized” some defenses in the league, but I seem to recall that the Bucs usually kept him in check pretty good.
"VICK & OBAMA SUPPORTER" $upporter (i.e. Taxpayer)
June 30th, 2009
2:13 pm
There is ONLY ONE area where Michael Vick has lived up to his enormous potential:
The Redistribution of STDs
Saabotager
June 30th, 2009
2:14 pm
Give Vick a break. He is stupid definitely not overrated!!! He led a team ranked 17th in the NFL to the NFC Championship game. What more do you want him to do. Vick did it all on his natural athleticism. Vick was always surrounded by mediocre talents. From the top with Rich McKay and his suck-”a” drafts and trades; to a rookie head coach who wanted to be friends instead of a leader; and to the weak-”a” offensive line, runnning backs, and wide receivers. He was thrown from the frying pan to the fire. I think he could have grown into a decent quarterback under the right coach, especially if Dan Reeves was kept on. Mora Jr. was not the guy to help Vick get to that next level. Dan Reeves had a plan and a system that never materialized because Blank was in a hurry to get all he could get out of Vick before it was too late. Blank saw his opportuinty to make quick money. Blank knew Vick had deviant potential. That is why he assigned Billy (White Shoes) Johnson to mentor Vick. Blank is a shrewd businessman who saw opportunity $$$$$ in Vick and he wanted capitalize on it before it was too late. (I love the Benjamins too!) Vick surprised us all. Don’t blame Vick because the coaching staff couldn’t coach him up. Vick won games and made a lot of people some money, namely the NFL and Arthur Blank. As far as being over-rated I don’t buy it. Make a new top ten list, “The Top Ten Stupidess Atheletes.” Now he belongs on that list not an overrated list.
Zoomie
June 30th, 2009
2:20 pm
One small point: MV didn’t go through what he’s been through because of mistakes. Accidentally running over someone’s dog while backing out of his driveway would be considered a mistake. Investing his money with Bernie Madoff could’ve been classified a mistake. What he did was deliberately engage in criminal conduct. That’s not a “mistake.”
What!!!
June 30th, 2009
2:21 pm
Mike Vick is gone, can we please get some blogs on Matty Ice?
He is the “new face” right?
Is he that insignificant?
Maybe he can win a couple of “play-off” games then maybe he will head up the “next decade” over-rated list.
TIGER TIME
June 30th, 2009
2:28 pm
How about Bret Farve as the most over-rated player of all time, he gets my vote hands down.
Mark Bradley
June 30th, 2009
2:31 pm
Here’s a little something I wrote regarding Brett Favre. The word “overrated” is prominent.
JSS
June 30th, 2009
2:35 pm
Ken… Does that same “moral” character comment go for men who infect their wives with the HP virus and are held up as the pinnacle of the college coaching profession and are then given that profession’s highest award? Also, he happens to be the highest paid State employee…
The whole Mark Sanford thing should give all of us pause to get out of other people’s bedroom… That whole Ron Mexico thing and the people who profited from it is the reason I knew that there were some that were going to “Jack Johnson” him eventually. Unfortunately, I gave Michael too much credit on one account. I thought he saw what most of us saw coming… And this is no excuse or conspiracy issue, Mr. Vick put himself in the position and did it to himself in terms of the dog fighting… Nevertheless, the hypocrisy reeks to high heaven…
A CITY OF RACIST!!!
June 30th, 2009
2:37 pm
MARK! no life yet? vick, hall and brook are gone about theirs. YOU NEED TO REALLY GET A ****ING LIFE.
A CITY OF RACIST!!!
June 30th, 2009
2:41 pm
MATTY ICE CREAM WILL MELT IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS….GO MARK….YOU ACTUALLY SIT AROUND AND THINK OF THINGS TO LOOK BACK ON. VICK IS GONE, HALL IS GONE, BROOK IS GONE….WHY CAN’T YOU JUST LEAVE THE AJC?
Vick Supporter
June 30th, 2009
2:43 pm
My God….you people never talk about Matty Ice. Why don;t ya’ll do a blog on him for once. He’s your “Franchise,lol” QB for God’s sake. Vick is going to do his thing when he gets back on the field, guranteed.
Vick 09
Cnote
June 30th, 2009
2:43 pm
Vick was not overrated to me. I have been a season ticket holder for 9 years and he played a major role in that. I also remember when Vick was hurt all season then came back for the last four games and won 3 of them. If Vick didnt matter to the team, the team never would have fallen apart without him. They were lost for a reason. They were missing their LEADER. The funnest thing people can say is he was not a leader. Hell, I remember him taking over pro-bowls!! It was assume what he could do with all-pro receivers. If he wasnt so special, his activities would not have mattered as much to the media. I love Matt Ryan, but it was a sad day when Vick was officially released. I cant wait to watch him play again, no matter who he plays for. I’ll bet it will be just like Atlanta was. He will neveer play for a crowd that isnt SOLD OUT. Did he do it here? Marinate on that. But this is the same city that drove Chandler out after a Superbowl. Hater capitol of the World, including the media.
Vick Supporter
June 30th, 2009
2:46 pm
Cnote….you just laid it down man, Thats the f;ing truth
What!!!
June 30th, 2009
2:49 pm
Matt Ryan
Ryan Leaf
Joey Harrington
Dan Mcgwire
Carson Palmer
Jay Cutler
What do they all have in common?
They all combined, have “zero” play-off wins!
What!!!
June 30th, 2009
2:59 pm
D-Hall over-rated?
Can anyone tell me in the history of the NFL that 1-player in a 12-month or less time frame could sign contracts of 72-million & 56-million?
I don’t think D-Hall cares much about what you people think, especially when he looks at his bank account
Chesterfield Unry
June 30th, 2009
3:00 pm
What???
You might want to give Mr. Ice a coupla seasons, hoss. Know what I mean?
VICK SUPPORTER 2
June 30th, 2009
3:23 pm
MV7 OVERRATED??!!
JUST LOOK AT HIS BANK ACCOUNT AND……….
WELL, HE STILL HAS HIS CONTRACT SO……….
WAIT A MINUTE………..WHERE AM I?
AC
June 30th, 2009
3:32 pm
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blog. Who cares? What about the team know. Vick is gone and I do not think he was overrated. He was what everyone thought he was. No one dreamed of Vick becoming Peyton Manning. He screwed up. Does that mean he was overrated?
I think the error was in the system he was in. Anyway, MOVE ON.
I'm back...
June 30th, 2009
3:46 pm
Matt Ryan is white.
Tate
June 30th, 2009
3:48 pm
Vick Supporter -
Was the ability to pass a rudimentary English class NOT a requirement for your high-paying, Affirmative-Action job with Cisco you like to come on these blogs and brag about so often?
Your communication “skillz” are quite poor, VS.
I'm back...
June 30th, 2009
4:38 pm
Vick is not white.
Vick = Michael Jackson
June 30th, 2009
4:48 pm
BREAKING NEWS: Michael Vick Leaves Construction Job to Work with Young Boys
PROOF!
Michael Vick IS the new Michael Jackson!
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4297245
Lynn
June 30th, 2009
5:35 pm
The AJC clearly loves #7 and needs him to keep afloat. This pathetic attempt to use ANOTHER blog to spur movement on THIS one is funny but hey, ya gotta eat don’t cha Mark Bradley?? Can’t hate on your hustle! LOL – you gotta do what you gotta do…journalism ethics be damned! LOL
Famuan
June 30th, 2009
5:47 pm
The AJC never did secure a picture or video of MV working on any construction site in VA….oh well! Don’t worry! You’ll have some of him working with smiling excited children next week! LOL But I bet you won’t print those if you do! LOL
Benjamin
June 30th, 2009
5:56 pm
I don’t agree on the Brooking opinion. I agree with the D. Hall selection — never thought the guy was worth the hype he received — and, to an extent, the Vick selection, though I think that his off-field problems of the past few years probably aided that. He was a guy who, like you said, won games based on his sheer athletic ability, not to mention the intimidation factor that came along with it.
Any time he had the ball, he could beat you…. he simply wasn’t the prototypical style of quarterback, and thus gets dinged by some for that reason.
VICK SUPPORTER 2
June 30th, 2009
7:46 pm
I agree. DHall is and never was a “shutdown” corner, and anytime a team takes a gamble on him they will find out that just doesn’t live up to the hype. I almost voted for Vick who was extremely overrated; however, DHall overshadows the dogfighter in this conversation. Thank god, MattyIce is the QB for this team.
Signed,
Vick Supporter 2
mars
June 30th, 2009
8:03 pm
Hey, Mark? Where is your blog from yesterday? You know, the one about the falcons receiving too much preseason praise. Doesn’t appear to be on your list of recent blogs (see top of page, to the left).
Mark Bradley
June 30th, 2009
8:10 pm
The archive only lists the 10 most recent posts, Mars. That one was from last week. But here it is. Thanks for asking.
mars
June 30th, 2009
9:00 pm
Thank you.