The Hawks’ free agents: Hope for three, settle for two
Mike Woodson is a coach, and every coach wants more and better players. On Monday, as the Hawks welcomed Jamal Crawford to Atlanta, Woodson spoke of the Hawks’ four key free agents and said this was how many he wanted to see back here.
“All of ‘em,” he said.
This is how ambitious Woodson is: He wants to keep the four free agents — Mike Bibby, Flip Murray, Zaza Pachulia and Marvin Williams — plus add “another veteran big, and there are some out there.” But that’s a coach talking, not a general manager. And Rick Sund might have a more pragmatic take.
Me, I can’t see any way the Hawks keep all four. Nor should they. With Crawford and Jeff Teague in a mix that already included Joe Johnson, there wouldn’t be enough minutes for both Bibby and Flip. And if Bibby returns to start, then Crawford becomes Flip and Flip becomes Acie Law, who barely played, and Teague becomes Thomas Gardner, of whom some of you haven’t even heard.
A reasonable scenario is for the Hawks to keep three of the four. There’s a chance Williams will sign a one-year qualifying offer, which would keep him here for next season but enable him to become an unrestricted free agent next summer, and one of the two guards should be amenable to sticking around.
Loading ...Zaza is a tougher call. The rumor is that San Antonio is interested, and that’s a great organization. But the Hawks might even have a fallback there. If Zaza leaves, then the Australian power forward David Andersen, who played last season for Barcelona and whose NBA rights the Hawks hold, could well become a person of interest.
Keeping three of the four would be good. Two of four would be acceptable. One of four would be a net loss, but the belief here is that the Hawks will do better than that.
Woodson: “It’s going to come down to money. You know that. You just hope it’s not a case of a guy [determined to take the highest offer]. Because we’ve built something here.”
And they have, as hard as it might be for some of us long-suffering Hawk watchers to admit. This is a good team, and it has a chance to be better still next season. On Monday the newcomer Crawford spoke with unbridled enthusiasm about joining “an up-and-coming team,” and when last could any new Hawk say that and mean it?
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149 comments Add your comment
hawksfan
June 29th, 2009
5:23 pm
Why does everyone want to trade Marvin. He is the only one on the hawks that does a decent job guarding lebron and peirce and hes only what like 23. we need to keep him here in atl unless they get someone in return that can play better defense and better offense.
ILL-logical
June 29th, 2009
5:37 pm
With Yao going down-maybe for the count-then ZaZa becomes more of a prize that will be sought by a couple of Texas teams.That leaves the Hawks to gamble that Calypso Al can man the post on a playoff contender in the suddenly hefty Eastern confrence.
Reid Adair
June 29th, 2009
5:43 pm
Very good analysis, Mark. Given the acquisition of Crawford and drafting Teague, I think that means that either Bibby or Murray is gone. Hopefully it’s not both. I would like to see Pachulia stay, but if the Spurs are interested, that may be difficult.
Johnny Hazeltine
June 29th, 2009
5:44 pm
Order of Importance for 2009-10:
1. Mike Bibby
2. Marvin Willliams
3. Flip Murray
4. Zaza Pachulia
Order of Importance for 2010-beyond:
1. Marvin Williams
2. Zaza Pachulia
3. Flip Murray
4. Mike Bibby
Order Of Value:
1. Flip Murray
2. Marvin Williams
3. Zaza Pachulia
4. Mike Bibby
Order Of Abilities:
1. Marvin Williams
2. Flip Murray
3. Mike Bibby
4. Zaza Pachulia
It looks as if Marvin Williams may be too valuable in the here and now for the Hawks to let him go in some sign-and-trade. However, signing Marvin almost certainly would mean the end of Mike Bibby’s stay in Atlanta. And, with the Crawford trade, a lineup of Bibby & Crawford in the back court would be a defensive nightmare for the Hawks. So my best bet is Marvin stays and the rest goes.
some sense
June 29th, 2009
5:45 pm
Forget Crawford as PG for the simple reason is that’s not what he is…end of discussion. Love havin’ him, and Teague, but neither can/will “run” the Hawks this year. Who will??? All we know is who it won’t be…including Mike Bibby. Woody can’t preach defense and rebounding if we can’t even guard the other guy’s primary ballhandler. So there’s priority one…acquiring a PG.
Next…don’t give up on Marvin Williams. You watch, he’s just about to move to the top of the heap of one of the game’s really glamour positions.
Quit even thinkin’ about lettin’ Josh Smith go…just keep tryin’ to coach him.
The Hawks’ current situation is the same it’s been for years, the 1 spot and the 5 spot MUST be upgraded. And if management really thinks Horford is a 5, they’d better sign Pachulia.
So…Pachulia and Williams YES…Murray and Bibby NO. And by the way, guys…hell w/ Childress.
Mbradley1445
June 29th, 2009
5:46 pm
Mark Bradley here. I doubt my comments will get highlighted because I am writing from my NEW IPHONE.
I like your team, Joe, but I worry about Amare’s knees. I don’t necessarily think Bibby is gone. And I’ll be out of touch for a bit because I’m going with Elizabeth and her pal Maya to see Demi Lovato at gwinnett.
Tim from EP
June 29th, 2009
6:25 pm
Seeing how the Bucks just made Villanueva a free agent, I would love to see the Hawks make a move for him. This probably means they will not sign Bibby or Marvin Williams. The Hawks would have a starting five of Crawford, Johnson, Smith Villanueva, and Hortford, with Murry, ZaZa and Teauge coming off the bench.
lawton
June 29th, 2009
6:38 pm
this is the thing. WHY add to a backcourt if the coaching staff refuses to develop a half court offense?
Cedrick
June 29th, 2009
6:46 pm
These knuckle heads are about to set this franchise back another ten years. How do you trade away a (young) guard for and guard then turn around and draft a guard. Look ATL mangement you can forget about trying to get more for less at this rate we will never get anywhere. While you guys continue nickel and dime out superstars the other teams are getting better and we are falling behind. It looks like we are rebuilding again. It seems as if management has no intention of trying to resign Bibby or Flip, if that is indeed the case there goes the 2009 season. Thanks for nothing!!
lawton
June 29th, 2009
7:13 pm
CEDRICK, you the ONLY one using your brain. both of us see what the hawks are doing. they just replacing one backcourt with another. how does that translate to more wins for the hawks? instead of bibby taking 3s it will be teague. johnson and crawford will isolate on the other side, business as usual. stupid hawks fans.
Stat Man
June 29th, 2009
7:15 pm
Since it’s been over 3 hours since Mark has replied to anybody, I think he must have spilled more water on his laptop – we can stop replying until he boots back up it seems.
Blast
June 29th, 2009
7:31 pm
Funny. I would like to know exactly where Bibby or his agent ‘floated’ out that he wants 10 mil. Folks just making stuff up.
And I guess folks have not been keeping up with current news because just today, Woody said he would like to have all 4 back. Zaza, Flip, Bibby and Marvin. He would also like another pick up big. Realistically, I don’t see all four players coming back. Would like to see Bibby back with a decent 2-3 year contract, Zaza if Spurs do not offer him crazy money, would like to see what a healthy Marvin can do on a one year tender. Flip might just be the odd man out. I love Flip, but Crawford is way better than Flip at doing the same thing, so he might not make the cut. Out of all four, most important, priority should be given to Mike and Zaza.
Hawks do need another big. A banger, fierce defender and rebounder.
niremetal
June 29th, 2009
7:38 pm
Mark,
You do get that Zaza and Andersen have totally, totally different games, right? Why would the Hawks look for a perimeter-shooting big man to replace a physical, defense-and-rebounding oriented player?
Max
June 29th, 2009
8:09 pm
Are the Smith for Stoudemire rumors true? I can’t find anythign about it on the net
jdewayneatl
June 29th, 2009
8:34 pm
Dont like the Stoudemire deal. The Hawks have been playing good “D” for the last few years. Taking J Smoove away and adding Stoudemire would kill our defensive effort, especially with adding Crawford and maybe bring Bibby back. Thats too many defensive liabilities.
Charlie V. is an UNRESTRICTED free agent. The Hawks could out-bid Cleveland (who Charlie V. has mentioned in his twitters. The Cavs have the mid-level exception but the Hawks could easily offer $6.5 to $7.5 mil.
We would still have about $8 mil to spend on Zaza and Flip. I’d rather have 2 for the price of 1 (Bibby will want atleast $6.5 mil).
PG – Jamal Crawford, Jeff Teague
SG – Joe Johnson, Flip Murray
SF – Marvin Williams, Mo Evans
PF – Josh Smith, Charlie V.
C – Al Horford, Zaza Pachulia
Thats so much versatility. Every player can play multiple positions.
Fill in the roster spots with Mario West, Garret Siler, Malik Rose (cheap veteran front court insurance plan), Thomas Gardner, and Randolph Morris (already under contract)
jdewayneatl
June 29th, 2009
8:38 pm
… Wait. Could we waive Morris and add Solo.
Johnny Hazeltine
June 29th, 2009
8:41 pm
RAYMOND FELTON
I wonder if Mike Bibby actually hurt Joe Johnson instead of helping him? I mean, Joe has been THE guy in Atlanta for four years, but come playoff time, Joe seems worn out.
~ Could that be because the Hawks need a penetrating PG, and not a guy who forces Joe to do all the penetrating?
~ Couldn’t the reason the Hawks really drafted Teague is because they knew that Bibby’s inability to penetrate (and, yes, I laugh ever time I use any form of the word “penetrate”) gave them a bit of security going into the FA period?
Everyone here knows my displeasure for the Hawks #19 pick, but if they really want a PG to get inside the lane to utilize Horford and Marvin more, then Teague provides the insurance in case the Hawks can’t pull the trigger on Sessions or Felton. It doesn’t make me like the pick anymore, but I now understand their thinking.
Felton, although inconsistent and erratic, does have the ability to get inside the lane and get other people shots. If you think about it, the only guy on the Bobcats who could create his own shot was Gerald Wallace, and he’s hurt a lot of the time. Therefore, it’s no reason Felton was inconsistent, he was having to try and create points out of almost nothing. Both Larry Brown and Michael Jordan started to like Felton after they got rid of Richardson and acquired Diaw and Bell, two guys who know how to get offense off of a penetrating PG.
And wouldn’t it be fitting that the Hawks, who passed on Paul and Deron, would acquire the other PG from that draft!
Marcus
June 29th, 2009
8:53 pm
I like the Charlie Villaneuva (sp?) scenario. don’t know much about him, but wonder if adding him is an even proposition or an upgrade at the SF….because I am sure we won’t lay down the $$$ for him and Marvin.
TheHawksFan
June 29th, 2009
9:13 pm
We cant Lose Bibbs!!! Do a Sign n Trade with the Cavs for BIG ILL for CRAWFORD. He feels betrayed with the SHAQ deal sending him to the bench. Cavs get a BIG guard we get our man in the middle. Resign Bibbs for 9 mil Flip for 4 mil. Put the Magic on the spot with a 2 or 3 mil offer to Gortat.
Let the Rook come along under Bibbs for a couple of years. Give QO to Marvin. Blow it all up IN DECEMBER if its not working.
Bibby 9 mil/Teague 2 mil
Joe 13 mil/ Flip 4mil /Mo 2mil
Josh 1o mil /Marvin 6 mil
Al 4 mil/Solo min
Ill 10 mil /Gortat 2 mil
Mario min RandMO min mmmm thats about 62 mil. Pray for a 59 to 60 mil cap. GOOOOO HAWKSSS!!!!
Hoops
June 29th, 2009
9:41 pm
TheHawksFan,
Your figures are not even close. The Hawks only have the MLE and the Bi-Annual to spend on FA’s. That’s about 7.5M. We can sign and trade or make trades or resign our own FA’s. That’s it.
Bill
June 29th, 2009
9:42 pm
Another great job. Just had time to read your The Next Cox post…had to give my opinion. Keep cool.
The Truth
June 29th, 2009
10:05 pm
Mr. Sund I hope you are listening. The consensus is to go after Charlie V to upgrade the backup PF position. Make it a priority. There are only 7 teams currently under the cap and the Hawks are one of them and Cleveland is not. We should win any bidding war with the Cavs for CV if the issue is only money.
Jack
June 29th, 2009
10:07 pm
Mac – they should not keep Bibby.
KB
June 29th, 2009
10:08 pm
Look gang. I would get rid of Marvin Williams and Mike Bibby; resign Zaza & Flip, and look for a vetern point guard and a big. We didn’t need Crawford when we had Flip. They do the same thing; bring scoring off the bench.
Marvin is what he is; an over-hyped player with no heart. He wasn’t ready when he was picked and he hasn’t developed his game since he has been in the league.
Bibby was a nice punch, but he is showing his age now. He is a backup now, but he wants starter’s money. The Hawks should not give it to him.
I say play Teague and let him learn on the job. Get a vetern point guard to help him on the way and get a big.
Starting lineup:
Teague (point), Johnson (shooting guard), J. Smith (small forward), Horford (power forward), and Morris (center for the time being).
The Real Fan
June 29th, 2009
10:19 pm
What is the logic in signing Williams for 1 year to let him go with no compensation next year?
He was the second overall pick. We should attempt to get something for him while we have restricted rights.
blue hawk
June 29th, 2009
10:39 pm
i don’t see any reason for marvin to stay. but i still think that it would be best to get something for a former #2 draft pick. sign him for a year/qualifying offer then trade him for a more fitting piece.
Ward
June 29th, 2009
11:08 pm
The only way to take the Hawks to the next level in the east is to get an elite level talent to pair with Joe Johnson. I think the play to make is to trade Josh Smith and the rights to Josh Childress to Toronto for Chris Bosh. Assuming they take that deal, then resign Marvin Williams and ZaZa. I may support taking a run on Shawn Marion too for 2-3 year contract… Imagine this team:
1- Crawford/Teague
2- Johnson/Evans
3- Williams/Marion
4- Hortford/Marion
5- Bosh/ZaZa
That would be a great young team, or we can just blow the whole thing up again and deal Josh Smith and Teague to Minnesota for Rubio. Trade Joe Johnson and rights to Childress to Golden State for Biedrins and Magette, then do a sign-n-trade with Marvin Williams to the Bulls for Hinrich… Nah, wishful thinking.
Mark Bradley
June 29th, 2009
11:11 pm
Sorry to have been absent, though I did try to post — that’s me as “mbradley1445″ at 5:46 — from my iPhone, which doesn’t highlight my little bon mots the way a real computer does.
The one-year qualifying offer would keep the Hawks from having to offer a bigger layout over a longer term, and it would allow Marvin Williams — who would only sign a qualifying offer if he doesn’t get a longer-term deal from some other team — to prove he’s worth a big contract next summer.
cdog
June 29th, 2009
11:17 pm
RICK SUND GET THAT CELL PHONE FROM STUCK IN YOUR EAR AND BRING IN THE CENTER WHO CAN DOMINATE ON BOTH ENDS OF THE FLOOR. DON’T ACCEPT LOSING TO THE CAVS, CELTICS AND MAGIC. GET OFF YOUR BUTT AND DO YOUR JOB TO BRING THE HAWKS A NBA TITLE.
Vince
June 29th, 2009
11:23 pm
I guess it’s nice for us(the bloggers) to dream about and pick the prospective lineups but the bottom line is that Woodson has given his Wish List to Sund and he has to figure out what works financially and try to pull it off. Then like it or not Woodson will figure out who he wants to play and in what sort of rotation. If he gets it right the Hawks will win 50+ and go into the third round of the playoffs and Woodson will get a contract extension. If they don’t do both Sund probably gives him his Walking Papers.
cdog
June 29th, 2009
11:26 pm
IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO RICK SUND BRINGING IN THE CENTER THAT CAN DOMINATE ON BOTH ENDS. STOP WORRYING ABOUT WOODSON. THE PROBLEM WILL BE RICK SUND IF HE FAILS TO BRING IN THE CENTER NEEDED. WOODSON HAS DONE AN INCREDIBLE JOB. IF SOMEONE NEEDS TO BE LOOKED AT ITS BOBBY COX OF THE BRAVES AND NOT WOODSON. STOP FOOLING YOURSELF WITH COX. WOODSON CARES ABOUT WINNING, COX DON”T. LOOK AT THE RESULTS NOW, THEIR RECORDS.
Mark Bradley
June 29th, 2009
11:28 pm
That’s a key point, Vince. The Hawks are roughly $20 million under the cap, but that’ll fill up pretty quickly once they start re-signing people.
Jody
June 29th, 2009
11:29 pm
Mark,
Have the Hawks made the qualifying offer to Marvin yet?
Mark Bradley
June 29th, 2009
11:33 pm
About Charlie Villanueva: He’s a double-figure scorer who hasn’t made himself indispensable to Milwaukee, which maybe tells us something. He’s a big guy — 6-foot-11 — who shot 258 threes last season. I don’t know that he’s quick enough to be the Hawks’ small forward, and I don’t know that he’s inside presence you’d like at power forward.
Good player, but maybe not a great fit. I’d rather have Josh Smith.
Mark Bradley
June 29th, 2009
11:34 pm
Jody, you can’t even begin talks with a free agent until July 1.
niremetal
June 29th, 2009
11:38 pm
Uh…Mark? You HAVE to make qualifying offers to free agents by June 30. We already made qualifying offers to both Childress and Marvin.
For the love of God, man, check with Sekou every once in awhile on this stuff, or at least read Coon’s FAQ.
niremetal
June 29th, 2009
11:39 pm
Here’s the link, in case you need it:
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q36
niremetal
June 29th, 2009
11:45 pm
And also, we’re less than $14M under the cap. Add in the cap holds for our free agents, and we’re basically only working with the mid-level and bi-annual exceptions this offseason. Again, check Larry Coon’s FAQ on all this…
Marcus
June 30th, 2009
12:07 am
MB,
If it came down to offering Marvin a deal (one-year deal or a matching an offer from another club) vs. chasing Charlie V. …all the while we are keeping J-Smoove, which is a better fit for the window of opportunity?
trying to pin you down
SB
June 30th, 2009
12:14 am
NO trade of Smith. It kill’s me no matter what the topic the Smith haters come up with some trade for Smith. Please for once let’s stick to the topic.
The Hawks major priority should be keeping salary cap room for 2010. Not only are their several franchise players available, Joe will be a free-agent and Al will be able to have his contract extended. Work on Marvin first. No mater if they ink him to a deal or trade him, Marvin should be first because of youth and value. They also have to decide what to do about Chill’s, If he wont play for the Hawks trade him and get something out of it. Zaza, followed By Bibby and last Flip. None of these guys deserve big deals. None should exceed 7 mill a year to start. Not Marvin, not Bibby, not Zaza. If you have to trade Marvin, Make sure you get equal talent back in return.
SB
June 30th, 2009
12:32 am
cdog…….. The GM’s job, is to bring in talent. But he also has to bring in talent that fits what the coach wants to do on the court. If he just goes out and brings in talent, They’ll just sit the bench like Law did. You have to honestly ask yourself would Woodson use a true center. He doesn’t go to big’s in the post, his offense is guard oriented. You guys have got to give up on Woodson changing his style, It’s not going to happen. That’s why the move to bring in Crawford was so good. He fits Woody, he fits what Woody wants to do. Their isn’t a center out their that could dominate on the offensive end for us, he would never get enough touches to do that.
Before I get hit with the ” If he had a talent like this he would go inside” smack. He has had a running team for 4 seasons, does he run the ball? The answer is No. He believes in doing it his way. Although I don’t agree with his way, It is his job on the line. Even when he had a talent like Wallace in Det. they didn’t go inside to the big’s much. Wallace never averaged more than 15.1 for the Pistons.
RealSquawk
June 30th, 2009
12:44 am
very refreshing to not see any trade Marvin quotes in this blog. it really does make me smile.
I am in the same delusion Mike Woodson is in. I want all of them back. plus Anderson and Childress.
But to humor myself; order of importance.
Williams-long term
Bibby -short term
Zaza- mid term
Flip- short term
now if we don’t sign Zaza it is of the utmost importance that we go after Anderson or some big.
If we don’t sign flip or bibby it is of the utmost importance we sign Childress.
Mark,
Do you know if the Hawks have an order of importance?
The Truth
June 30th, 2009
12:58 am
Mark Bradley
CV brings the same intangibles as Hedo. As a backup PF, he would be a change of pace and an upgrade.
niremetal
We wouldn’t carry the cap hold if we don’t sign the players. The cap hold is just a place holder until we figure out what we are going to do with the free agents. If the player signs elsewhere, the cap is removed. The cap is also removed if we decide to go elsewhere and renounce the player. If we deal with our free agents first, we will be operating under the cap without MLE and the cap picture will clear-up one way or another. If we try to deal with free agents other than our own first, then you make a good point because the hold will count as if we have those players under contract.
niremetal
June 30th, 2009
1:27 am
The Truth,
You’re right, of course, that signing a free agent (whether it’s us or another team signing them) will make that player’s cap hold disappear (and replace it with his actual salary if he re-signs with us). But our MLE and bi-annual also act as cap holds.
Right now, we have ~$13M under the cap with just the players under contract, including Teague. The cap holds for the MLE and bi-annual take that down to ~$4M. Our qualifying offers to Chill and Marvin alone mean that from a cap perspective, we’re actually $16M over the cap for signing purposes because of the “250% or max salary” rule for cap holds for guys in his position. Those are locked in because of the qualifying offers. Unless we revoke the qualifying offers, they stay on the books. So we’re sitting right now at $16M or so over the cap as far as the CBA is concerned – and that’s not even counting the cap holds for our unrestricted free agents or for the fact that we only have 6 guys under contract that will kick in tomorrow.
Manny
June 30th, 2009
1:34 am
I agree with the above poster: I would only part with Josh Smith if it was straight up with Chris Bosh. And you would STILL need a big man.
And I don’t think that trade is going to happen because Chris Bosh is a free agent this year, right? His price will be very high.
Najeh Davenpoop
June 30th, 2009
2:23 am
Right now, my list goes 1. Bibby, 2. Marvin, 3. Zaza, ….. 4. Flip.
That’s not a knock on Flip, He played his role great last year, all things considered. But Flip is the one guy of the four whose role is accounted for right now. Jamal Crawford provides everything Flip does plus more. Keeping Flip just means two guys are going to be sharing the same role, which means neither one will get the playing time they need.
Of the three remaining, keeping Bibby is most important because neither Teague nor Crawford are true point guards who have shown they can run an offense with poise in the NBA. Ideally, Bibby comes back for about half of what he made last year (which would come out to something like $6-7 million), and as the season goes along Teague starts taking more and more playing time from him as he improves. Crawford is not a true point guard and the offense would be set back if he replaced Bibby.
Marvin, for all his lack of aggressiveness is one of the Hawks’ best perimeter defenders and fills many roles for the Hawks. Although most of what he provides can be replaced in free agency (players like Trevor Ariza for example can provide most of what he does to this team, even if they are not nearly as talented) he is still a valuable asset and if anything should be sign-and-traded.
As much as I (and many other Hawks fans) like Zaza, the truth is the Hawks would be foolish to keep him in favor of a shot-blocking defensive big man, if someone like that became available. Zaza is a nice physical presence off the bench who provides some toughness to this team, but he is definitely more replaceable than either Bibby or Marvin.
Bradley's Buzz: Three Falcons among decade' | Mark Bradley
June 30th, 2009
6:00 am
[...] The list of the underrated (link requires registration) was compiled by Aaron Schatz of Football Insiders, and since it’s one of those pay-to-view things — and I paid my $39.95 — I’ll take the liberty of quoting liberally. The most undervalued player of the decade is wide receiver Derrick Mason. And three Falcons, present or past, are included: [...]
Mark Bradley
June 30th, 2009
6:44 am
I’m sure the Hawks have an order of importance, though they haven’t shared it with me.
I never thought I’d say this, but I believe I’d rather keep Marvin than sign Charlie Villanueva.
Mark Bradley
June 30th, 2009
7:35 am
Oh, and I was wrong in an above comment. Qualifying offers do have to be made by today. Thanks for setting me straight, Nire. I apologize for my error.
And I cannot imagine the Hawks would not make a qualifying offer to Marvin Williams.
Ernest
June 30th, 2009
7:43 am
Have the Hawks made a QO to Marvin and Chills yet? If so, it does not appear on their transaction page on the Hawks website.