Survey says: Bobby Cox has supporters. Who knew?

Make people talk and sometimes even think. Those were great few blogs last week that spurred discussion and people are still talking about it. Way to go Mark.

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Let’s hear an AMEN BRO for Larry!!! One hundred percent in agreement bro! Cox is TOO loyal to his players. Sometimes you have to kick butt to get production. Entirely too laid back!

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Anyone who points to the 1-14 record in the playoffs doesn’t have a clue.

In order to win the WS you have to make it to the playoffs, and Bobby had the team in the playoffs each year, until the recent rough patch.

Anything can happen in the short playoff series. Ask the Yankees. And they got rid of Torre, and the next manager didn’t make the playoffs.

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Wow, Mark – first “avuncular,” now “maladroit” – you’re going to have us keeping a dictionary by our desks before you know it!
I tried to comment the other day, but the comment section was already so full, I said to myself – forget about it – Mark will never see my thoughts among the hundred or more others already here.
I am glad Bobby’s players liek him. And, I do give Bobby some credit for managing the Braves during their unprecedented run of championships. On the other hand, in my opinion, he has always relied far too much on big ball (home runs) and never on small ball. Even when the Braves have had speed, Bobby rarely takes advantage of it. Plus, I’m not sure of the stats, but a) it appears that the Braves hit into more double plays than any other team I’ve ever seen, and b) they appear to leave more men on base than any other team I’ve ever seen.

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Brian,

I agree that you have to get there and the odds are that one will more than likely have a losing record in the final game of the postseason if they’ve been there multiple times. I’m not oblivious to the obvious. However, I’d take a 3-12 record for Cox as this means we would have at least 3 World Series Championships and I believe this is the minimum expectation given the abundance of talent and opportunities afforded the Braves.

What do I honestly think about Cox? I honestly think he is one if not the best regular season managers for a team rich in starting pitching which will always win the majority of 162 games and beat out 4 other teams. But, I also think he is either simply not bright enough, too stubborn or loyal to a fault. or just simply doesn’t have the “knack” or that difficult to define instinct to make the best decisions at the right time and this is why he is the absolute worst in winning the short series or deciding game against other managers matching him with the comparable starting pitching one sees in a league championship series and certainly the world series.

Do you think it a coincidence that the only championship under Cox came against the Cleveland Indians in 1995 who just happened to have perhaps the worst starting pitching in recent world series history?

He’s a good guy, the players love him, but he truly manages like a little league manager by barking out cute little nicknames to grown men and leaving in weaker players struggling at the plate even if it means losing the darn game. He is simply not world championship manager!

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I’m just glad nobody said “First” today like on DOB’s blogs. I don’t feel like my opinion of Cox should count as much as most, as I have only lived here for 5 years and really didn’t grow up with the Braves.

I am a huge fan now, as a product of making Atlanta my home. Semi-objectively I feel like when a team is not living up to the past and to current expectations sometimes it is time for a change. But many times the injection of something (or someone) new provides a quick and short-lived kick that fades faster than it began.

Changes need to be made, but I’m not ready to conclude that Bobby needs to be one of them. I don’t always agree with his in-game strategy, but I think he will know when it is time to step down, or up into the front office as it were.

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Mark, I know that I was one of the people who said it was time for Bobby to go, and it’s not because I dont have respect for the man, or what he has accomplished. I’ve been a Braves fan for 26 years, and I have a great deal of respect for what he has done for baseball, this city, and this team. I just thought that maybe, after twenty consecutive years as manager, it might be time for a change. Maybe I’m wrong.

The Braves are only a few games out of first. I ‘m hopeful that we can have a seven and three homestand, and do something to get us back into contention. It would be awesome if this team could make it to the playoffs, even as the wild card. With the way the Mets and Phillies are playing, that isnt an unrealistic goal.

If Bobby stays for a while, I will be fine with it.

Mitch

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Those of us who were around in the 25 years prior to Cox’s arrival probably appreciate him more than more recent fans. Lately the Braves’ front office has made some terrible decisions, and I wonder if Cox has had any say so in disasters like the Teixeria trade and the shabby treatment of Smoltz and Glavine. (Regardless of their value to the Braves, their treatment did nothing for team morale.) Hitting, and clutch hitting in particular, has certainly been a weakness, and perhaps it is time that Cox evaluate Pendleton’s performance.

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Bobby Cox is the Bobby Bowden of MLB.He built the Braves from nothing.Let him stay as long as he likes.

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Anyone but Liebrandt.

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Larry – You absolutely nailed it. We all applaud Bobby’s regular season brilliance, but his undeniably a horrible tactical manager. It’s very difficult because the one thing that made/makes Bobby great, is that he is such a GREAT players managers. You could argue that without Bobby the Braves would not have even made the post season with such consistency. I believe that’s what makes Bobby so frustrating. We see his finer qualities (which used to get us to the playoffs), but his horrific late-inning decisions have always left us scratching our heads.

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We need a RH bat!

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Mark,

After 18 years I can’t remember the options over Leibrandt in 1991. But, had this alone happened in only 1991 you just chalk it up to bad luck. It the same “body or work” of poor, questionable or non decisions that STARTED in 1991 that is the issue here, not just that one at bat. And, just because Leibrandt, a slow, deliberate left hander, had struck out Puckett in two previous at bats is not the reason to pick this match up in the 11th inning. Wouldn’t you think that all of the odds would be in Puckett’s favor giving the facts and Puckett’s all star status? Whew!

This is precisely my point–Bobby Cox does not have a knack or the aptitude to make key, in-game strategic decisions in close or deciding games!

What is your excuse, Mark, for the very next year Bobby Cox letting the same left handed Charlie Leibrandt pitch to the right handed Joe Carter who also had the key hit in game six of the 1992 world series? This is blatant ignorance or stubbornness and neither is acceptable for championship baseball

Don’t be so selective, Mark! 1-14 is impossible to ignore!

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I have been a Braves fan since they arrived to Atlanta. I remember when all I had to hang my hat on was Aaron and Niekro. Bobby and John had a great run. Sparkling regular season records, but unfortunately, I think that they will be viewed as underachievers in the post season, fairly or not. When your rotation includes three HOFs, and you close the deal once, I am afraid that is what you get.

That being said, no way you move Cox out. He is a good manager. I don’t think anyone can do better with this lineup. I looked at the standings a couple of days ago and the Braves were fourth in the East and the fifth worse team in the NL. The last five years or so, management has viewed the Braves as being one piece short of the puzzle, when actually the team was in a more severe decline – the result of which has been to trade for the piece at the expense of young talent which further erodes the base.

They need to develop their talent, trade Chipper for youngsters and start to climb back.

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I have been on both sides of this issue. I have supported him because during most of my adult life they’ve won much more than when I was a kid. And I have railed against him for his inability to be able to manage a pitching staff and for losing more than he won in World Series. For a long time I believed he was the only man who could properly manage the Braves, I don’t know if that’s true anymore. But I still can’t think of anyone who would be better.

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I think Bobby needs to use some speed on the base paths…how many runs get generated by stealing bases, or the threat of a SB causing a pitcher to throw the ball away, or walk a batter, etc?

We need a Nixon/Sanders combo in the outfield again…I bet Neon could still play, sign him for the remainder of the season! BRING BACK NEON DEON!

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Braves73,

Touché!

P-Man,

The Braves were right to fire Bobby Cox as Joe Torre and Bob Gibson were the perfect pair to propel that 1982 team to a division title. Further, had Joe Torre, Cito Gaston, Sparky Anderson, Whitey Hertzog, Terry Francona or several other good managers been at the helm of the Braves from 1991 through 2006 there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Braves would have celebrated at least 3, and likely 4 or 5, World Series Championships. I agree with you about Leeman Bennett and Dan Reeves, but Bobby Cox should have been asked to retire at least 2-3 years ago.

Lastly, I don’t disagree that some of us–and that includes me–need to learn to just enjoy the game more regardless of the records. However, I will respect your more passive approach to professional sports where spitters and scratchers earn multi millions of dollars to play a kid’s game if you in return respect my unrelenting desire to only accept championship baseball as the supreme goal.

There are followers and leaders in all professions–I willfully choose the latter!

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Where’s Robert?

Anyone who thinks that Cox’s loyalty to his players and inability to handle a pitching staff aren’t hurting the Braves just isn’t paying attention.

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Bobby has been a great in-season manager for the Braves. But he never realized the importance of one game in a post-season series. That’s why Torre skunked him. Torre knew that every game counted. Torre wouldn’t hang on to a faltering pitcher just because he said he still had some left. If the guy was gassed, Torre yanked him. More importantly, Torre went with the hot hand, rather than the lefty-righty percentages. How many times did Cox pull a great hitter just because of a lefty-lefty matchup and replace him with a banjo hitter instead. Those are my two greatest criticisms of Cox: He stuck with pitchers way too long in critical games and he’s a slave to lefty-righty BS. Any smart manager knows you can force him to yank one of his best players by just announcing that you are bringing in a journeyman left-hander.

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THIS IS GARBAGE. I SHOULD STILL BE ON THIS TEAM

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Ted,

Of course the other Managers like Cox as they hope to meet him in the postseason where he is the easist to outmanage among their peers. What’s so hard for you to understand here? Joe Torre just loeves Bobby Cox!

Last night’s game is the perfect game fo Bobby Cox where he gets shutout pitching and is left only to make the most obvious decision–filling out the lineup card before the game and then pulling the starter after he tires.

BUT, just watch the next three series when Bobby is forced to think now and then and get back to me next week, okay?

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And it’s not that I believe I could do a better job than Cox, Mark.

But I know who WOULD have done a better job than Cox:

Joe Torre

Tito Francona

Sparky Anderson

Cito Gaston

Tony LaRussa

Whitey Herzog

Tom Kelly

Jim Leyland

Lou Pinella

Dusty Baker

Buck Schowalter

Jim Fregosi

… and dozens, dozens more.

Shoot, Mark… you give BOBBY VALENTINE the teams Cox had in the 1990’s, and HE wins more than one World Series.

BOBBY VALENTINE!!!

Bobby Cox was handed some of the greatest teams in the history of baseball, and squandered every bit of potential they had come October.

Why?

Because he refused to change his approach. He refused to see that October is DIFFERENT than April.

How many hot bats did he leave on the bench?

How many light-hitting veterans did he leave in the line-up?

How many idiotic platoons did he stick Ryan Klesko in?

How many times did he run Glavine and Maddox out there as his No. 1 & 2 pitchers when HISTORY showed us that in October, those two corner nibblers were .500 pitchers?

How many times did the BEST October pitcher in the history of baseball only get to pitch once, maybe twice in a series?

Mark, do you know what Einstein says about insanity?

It’s doing the same thing, over and over, the same way every time, but expecting a different result each time.

Bobby Cox in October is the DEFINITION of insanity.

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Yeah Lou Pinella would have done a better job…… How many titles has he won with the Cubs who have an abundance of talent and 1 of the highest payrolls in the game. Your just a hater. lucky for us nobody who matters and makes decisions cares what you think

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BugKiller,

You, Sir, have courage!

However, be most careful here, as your facts may tend to interfere with a good story for old Mark and some baseball goobers on here who worship Bobby and gaze with utmost admiration at the unparalleled depths of his nasal mining.

Larry

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NEON DEON!!!!

Question is, would he leave his comfortable ananlyst/reporter gig in Football to take over coaching…does he even want to?

At least one inquiring mind wants to know…

NEON DEON!!!

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Bug Killer, Space Monkey, & Larry – Dead on with every point made. Bobby has too much player loyalty and can’t make the tough decisions in post season play. I can remember Bobby beating T.P. into the ground (in his 2nd Braves stint) when he had nothing left. I remember Tony Grafininno & Danny Bautiste starting in key playoff games in 97-98. I could go on for days…

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It’s amazing to me how many people responding about Bobby Cox say he is too laid back – too close to his players – too this – too that! I am sure none of the posters have ever played for him – or even been close to a major league dugout – remember Little League doesn’t count. While I have to admit the lack of more Championships is a negative, the Braves have one a lot more ball games than the Hawks or Falcons and more than a lot of other major league baseball teams. Bobby will retire when he is ready and then we will see what direction the team will go. Until then, enjoy!

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Larry — As I said to you yesterday: “I’m sorry. I don’t have time to play with you.”

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Larry, man you are hyperactive and annoying. I flick a booger in your general direction, before retiring to get work done.

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Ted Striker, speak for yourself son. I was at the Park in 70, 80, 90. where were you. I was there till 3 am in morning for longest extra inning game. I was there when Ted called John Mullen to come to his office to fire Torre,after one person had got in Ted’s ear in his box seat . I was there when Ted fell on field drunk. I was there for Hank’s great homer. I was there with Pearl… 7 years without missing a game..Where was you Stricker, Oh without a ticket?

How the hell do you know what nearly 100% would have said in 330BC? Was you there? Alot of ML mgrs are not to smart just lucky. Have a great day.

How in hell do you know

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I always find it humorous when someone clouts their opinion and supports it as agreed upon by public opinion only to be followed by the disclaimer “unscientific poll.”

So basically we still may not have an accurate assessment … Still I fell I’m getting a better, more accurate assessment of your (Bradley’s) opinions in general. Finding less and less to read in the AJC

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Bug Killer- Hindsight is 20/20. It must be nice to live a world where you get to look at the results then blame the methods after the fact.
It is a really poor way to look at sports and life for that matter. I also want to let you know that no matter how much the Braves win or lose that empty spot in your soul will never be filled that way. You certainly could display more integrity than ripping Bobby Cox and signing your own name.

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Bug Killer- All of your statements are supposition. You have not stated one “fact”. When do you refuse to face the english language?

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It is the nature of writers and fans to take Managers to task when the result we hope for doesn’t happen. So, the criticism of Bobby Cox is not unexpected. But why not take the Ownership to task for limiting what a team can do financially or the players to task for not producing or the players and agents to task for their greed in placing money ahead of team loyalty. We fans don’t jump ship for greater enticements. We’re here every year — loyal, hopeful, cheering. So, when a beat writer loads up on one of baseballs most successful skippers, it is just another of the distractions we fans have to face. Is Cox perfect? No, but he’s one of the best and we are fortunate to have had him all these years.

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Hershel Talker: Larry IS Robert!!!

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When I think back to Sunday’s game and had a chance to win and playing in a Boston. I ask why in the world do you bring in Benett when we as a team needed that game etc.. This makes me question Bobby Cox again? Well just a thought a great hitting team as the Red Sox’s are. I understand our best closers have been worked but I ask why ? This is what Mark seems to understand and I do also, Great Baseball Man, but the times have changed. Retch I agree with you also. Space u get it.

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TN Jeff…I did and have not been to a game in 4 years. Will not go back till BC is gone.

That was my life for awhile, I’ll leave it at that.

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Mark,

To answer your question, only a strikeout pitcher with the game on the line against a good right handed pitcher. Certainly not a slow, deliberate, nibbling lefty. You keep mentioning Leibrandt’s regular season record in 1992 and 1992. My God, man, you DO think like Bobby Cox! Who cares about Leibrandt’s regular season record as a starter when the game is on the line in the 11th inning of game six of the World Series and you have an All Star right handed hitter at the plate? I wouldn’t have brought in Tom Glavine either!

Wow! I’m competing intellectually with an unarmed opponent.

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The Braves certainly enjoyed an unprecedented 14-year run under the management of Bobby Cox. The fact that he’s won 2000+ games as a major league mananger is proof that he must know a thing or two about the game. What concerns me, however,is that the number of games he’s won is more a testament to his obvious longevity than to his real effectiveness. Given the talent he had to work with for much of that 14-year run, it would have been harder NOT to win.

The problem is that the Bobby worshippers can’t have it both ways. They can’t credit him for number of NLCS and NLDS victories and then turn around and excuse him for coming up short of the big prize in every instance but 1995. In my feeble mind, there is something more than just dumb luck to account for the lack of more World Series wins. We wouldn’t even be talking about the Puckett/Leibrandt matchup in game 6 of the 1991 WS if we didn’t see that as the beginning of a pattern of questionable decisions by Cox. The fact is that he’s stubborn, pure and simple. He sticks to the same playbook year after year and never adjusts his style to fit type of team he has. A team’s dynamic changes year after year and the management should reflect that change.

My biggest problem with Cox, though, is in his inability to see when a player can’t do the job. Case in point: Sunday at the Red Sox. Jeff Bennett is not a major league pitcher and he’s demonstrated this time and time again. Yet Bobby puts Bennet on the mound in the bottom of the 9th…and loses on 1 pitch. Some people say that Bobby is just loyal to his players, and that’s fine. But when loyalty costs the team wins as it has soooo many times in the last 18 years, it becomes one of the biggest reasons we’ve only won the 1 lone World Series.

I don’t think that anyone can argue the fact that the Braves were the best team in baseball for most of the 90’s. So why didn’t we win more World Series? The players play the game according to how their manager manages. So, given the talent of the players in the 90s, one can only conclude that the way in which they were managed left something to be desired. The same can be said for the 2009 Braves. And we have the same manager. Go figure.

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STOP SAYING THE PLAYOFFS ARE A CRAPSHOOT AS A DEFENSE OF BOBBY COX!!!!!

This is the SAME frakking excuse Bobby has been using for YEARS to cover for his inept handling of his teams come October and it a complete LIE!!!

You know what a crapshoot is?

Winning 4 World Series in 12 tries.

THAT is a crapshoot.

Joe Torre can use that excuse.

Bobby Cox won ONE World Series in FOURTEEN tries!!!

That is NOT a crapshoot!!!

Stop peddling B.S. lies!!!

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“And one thing more: When you’re tied in extra innings on the road, you’re not looking for a pitcher to get just one guy out. You know you have to get six more outs to win the game. You can’t just go lefty/righty; otherwise you’ll end up with your shortstop pitching in the 14th.”

I just popped a vessel!

Mark, simple question for you, okay? What does it take to get to “the 14th”? Answer, to get the guy out in the 11th! Now I know why you support Bobby Cox!

Whew!

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It’s interesting to me that many of the Cox detractors point to these individual “moments” when he may or may not have made a bad decision. It’s because these people have a singular focus…their world revolves around whether or not the Braves win the WHOLE STINKIN THING every year. I’m more pleased with the quality of baseball and consistent success over a very extended period of time. I’d take being a Braves fan over being a Marlins fan who has two World Series and 15 other years of terrible baseball. I have never understood why some people get so bent out of shape when a team doesn’t win a championship every year. My ultimate goal would be to be a billionaire, but I’ll take a six figure salary any day of the week.

The man is more games over .500 than any manger in baseball history besides John McGraw and Joe McCarthy. Fourth most wins of all time. Among 10 managers with over 2000 wins, his win percentage is fourth. Two, count em, two losing seasons out of his last 21 full years as a manager. He has as sterling a reputation as you will ever find among players, colleagues, and opponents. He made the Braves into (still) one of the top five or so most respected and admired organizations in baseball. And some people are worried about whether he brought in the wrong guy to pitch to one batter 20 years ago.

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I would take our shortstop pitching over Jeff Bennett in a tie game in the bottom of the ninth inning ANY DAY! At least Yunel has an arm!

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MB – I don’t think you should focus on Leibrandt. That was no way even close to his most egregious bonehead moves. If you want a list, I’ll give you one, but that one wouldn’t even be on there. Can we focus on real bonehead moves, please? For starters, how about starting Danny Bautista in game 6 against the Padres in 1998? That’s just one of many.

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Okay, boys, I want to deviate a little from the infamous decisions by Cox over the years that no one could argue were often wrong, bad luck or not.

More than this, my primary dislike of Bobby Cox is actually not his decisions but his style of baseball. Specifically, Bobby Cox WAITS for things to happen versus MAKES things happen.

From 1991 through about 1995 the Braves were the model in baseball and their concept was “great starting pitching and defense wins the regular season and once the playoffs starts anything can happen.” Of course they finally got it all in 1995. However, starting in 1996, the New Yorks Yankees added an additional element to great pitching and defense: situational, contact hitting and overall team speed. In fact, the Yankees did not really have a 40-50 home run type of guy from 1996 though 2000 and they won 4 World Series during this time with pitching, defense and situational, contact hitters–you know, the kind of hitters that make a difference in a must win game when both teams are sporting great pitchers? Also, since moving away from this model in the last 6-8 years and adding a bunch of long ball hackers they haven’t won it have they?

My point is that Bobby Cox continues with the same strategy and player selection with streaky, hot or cold, Free swinging hacks that when they’re cold they can score 8-10 runs 2-3 games in a row; but, when they’re not, they can go several games with fews runs. Sound familiar?

Bottom line is I cannot stand to go to a game and watch Bobby Cox baseball anymore. It is easily the most boring and predictable thing in the world and I can just absolutely predict that Jeff Francoeur, Kelly Johnson or Matt Diaz will swing at pitches over their heads, in the dirt, or a foot outside the next several game.

Give me a team like the Marlins–yes Marlins this year–the Red Sox, anyone who couples speed, situational, contact hitters, bunters, etc., and you can have this style of baseball that Cox employs year after year that always found the inevitable ability to go cold in the post season at the worst possible moment–like games 4,5 6 of the 1996 World Series, and games 1-4 of the 1999 World Series.

I just don’t like Bobby Cox baseball!

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Larry, I believe you won that round. Loved the “I popped a vessel!” and “competing intellectually with unarmed opponent.”

Beware Mark is armed. He has the Media as his weapon.

Larry I believe you won that round but Mark does have a weapon. He has the media to get his opinion across. It worked for Obama, and what did we get… 3 Trillion more in debt plus.

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It is absolutely unbelievable that Bobby Cox has never understood and that baseball writers do not understand the absolute necessity of working the count and making the opposing pitcher throw a lot of pitches – if you are to have consistant run production. This enebles your hitters to see what the pitcher has, adjust to him, get better pitches to hit, make him make mistakes, tire him out within innings and for the game, get into their weak middle relief ect. etc. Right now the Braves are next to last in all of baseball in average number of pitches seen per at bat. This is typical Cox and is terrible offensive management. You will never have a acceptable run production as long as you do not stress and demand that your hitters do this. Granted Cox is one of the best at keeping team in good spirits on and even keel etc.; but is a terrible offensive manager and in game manager. After all the way he won 14 divisions was having an All Star Pitching Staff so dominant and far far superior to the other teams that it made overcame his incompetence as an offense manager and made it almost impossible to lose the Division over the 162 game regular season schedule. Even with this Piching, he won only one W.S. How can anyone manage for 20 plus years and not understand the absoulute necessity for working the count and making the opposing pitcher throw a lot of piches.

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FIRE BRADLEY!!!

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GOOD STUFF. GREAT DISCUSSIION.

BOBBY DOESN’T HIT OR THROW. NOUGH SAID

GO LSU. TIGER BAIT

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Paint it Black

I see the record and I want it painted black.

No 14 happy years, I want them painted black.

Although the Braves won 14 seasons in a row,

I won’t be happy without 14 more of those.

I see a manager, I want him painted black,

With pennants and a ring both never to come back.

I saw 1995 and quickly looked away.

Like a newborn baby, I just whine all night and day.

I look inside myself and see my heart is black.

I saw a series win, I want it painted black.

Maybe then the Braves will fade away and not come back

You can’t enjoy a winning team when your whole world is black.

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Damn bugman…I suggested that you STFU and you filibuster the damn place…and Brian, you said what I was trying to say (that the Braves have given us far more to cheer about than any other franchise in baseball over those 14 years) only with far more eloquence.

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“If I had one Bobby Cox postseason move to second-guess and truth to tell…Eddie Perez. He’d read the Game 3 column and wasn’t happy with me. “You don’t think I do a good job catching Maddux?” he asked. I said I thought he did, but down 0-2 I thought the Braves missed Javy’s bat. (Even though Eddie had two hits in Game 3.)

I hated that Eddie was upset because he’s a great guy. And I was tickled when, one year later, Eddie Perez was named MVP of the NLCS against the Mets.”

Wow! Mark admitted to the entire world he almost, kind of, sort of, criticized a a Cox move and a player decision–once in 20 years!

Please excuse me while I go puke!
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Okay, I’m back and feeling better! Come on Mark, I’m starting to like the smidgen of courage from you! Can we have some more?

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Showing support for Cox headline…brilliant. Are his supporters called the tighty whities?

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I agree wholeheartedly with P-Man and Buck.

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If according to Matt T weird things can happen in a short series, why did they always happen to the Bravos?? It is because Bobby could lead his team in a 162 game season with many games played against INFERIOR teams. However, in the playoffs everyone is reasonably equal. In general it is fairly well known that in a short playoff series pitching and defense usually will prevail. Who had better pitching than Atlanta? And still they won ONLY 1 of 15 final postseason games. And today… Bobby’s time has passed. HE NEEDS TO GO!!!!

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To say a manager is a failure because he wins 60 percent of the time but goes 1-14 in the last series of the season is flawed logic. Let’s take a similar scenario: The NCAA Basketball Tournament. Of the 64 best teams in the country, 63 lose their final series. Does that mean that all 63 coaches are failures and should be fired? Of the 30 Major League Baseball teams, only eight make the playoffs. Seven of those end their season on a series loss. Are all seven teams, and their managers, therefore deemed failures? Only one team can win it all, and to be the one team out of 30 to do so is not that easy, folks. Since 1991, how many World Series have the Dodgers won? How about the Mets? Only the Yankees, Red Sox, Marlins and Blue Jays have won more World Series than the Braves in the last 20 years. Nineteen of the 30 MLB teams have zero world titles since 1991. In baseball, more than in any other team sport, longevity is what matters. Fourteen straight division titles is an astounding achievement, and a World Series title is nothing to be ashamed of. Thanks Bobby – and Go Braves!

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Buck-
Your points on modern-day baseball are well taken. It’s true that anything can happen in the postseason, especially the best-of-five Division Series. But you see, that’s exactly when a manager has to be willing to try new things and make whatever moves he has to to win games. The formula that Cox used for the regular season in the 90’s obviously worked well over the course of six months and 162 games, but the refusal to adjust his philosophy in a short series cost us dearly. The true test for a manager IS NOT the 162 game season, it’s the ability to adjust and be more flexible with decisions in a short series. You don’t have the luxury of being passive in a 5 or even a 7 game series as EVERY move increases in importance a thousand percent! There is no next week in the postseason. It’s do or die. unfortunately, we died too many times.

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There are a lot of things I was better at when I was younger. Cox has never been nor will he ever be a good tactician.

Anyone could have won all those games in the 90’s with that pitching staff and line-up. Just fill in the card and sit back.

His record in one run games is what gives away his deficiencies.

Tommy Lasorda once said a good manager should be worth one run per game to his ball club. Cox is a negative one run to the Braves.

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For those of you busting up on Cox saying anyone could have won with that lineup….Who was the GM stocking the farm system prior to ‘91?

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For those of you busting up on Cox saying that anyone could have won once in 14 years. Go bust your butt, becme a major league manager, win 14 consecutive titles with at least 2 WS wins and when you are inducted into the HOF be sure to mention that you were right about Bobby.

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For those of you busting up on Cox for playing KJ, GA, JF or anybody….Tell me who on the Atlanta bench is better?

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I can’t even guess “heads” or “Tails” right 14 times in a row. The man won with every team he was given for 14 years. Yes, we’ve had some HOF’ers here but he’s managed around injuries, Albie Lopez, John Rocker, Jason Marquis, Bruce Chen and a ton of other flops too.

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It’s all about whether as a fan you want to salute Bobby Cox for the rest of his days or to win baseball games.

If you believe that Bobby Cox was responsible for that run of 14 straight, is he not responsible for the collapse of the team since?

Then there are those here who say that it’s all on the hitting, pitching and defense. That Bobby doesn’t hit, pitch or play defense so he shouldn’t be held accountable.

Geez folks, if all the manager does is fill out the lineup card and sit in the dugout and pick his nose during the game, give me a Playboy Playmate or someone like that to look at during the game in the role of manager!

Selective memory is a great thing. On this blog, selective memory turns down right schizophrenic! He won it for the Braves? He isn’t responsible of losing it for the Braves?

Which is it? Can’t be both ways!

I have to agree with ESPN radio guy Colin Cowherd. Basically he says if you drink the Kool-Aid that team management puts out there for you without question, then you deserve what you get.

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John OTC

You inability to comprehend logic is laughable.

BOBBY COX HAD LITTLE TO NOTHING TO DO WITH WINNING 14 STRAIGHT DIVISIONS.

TALENT DID.

BOBBY COX HAD ALMOST EVERYTHING TO DO WITH LOSING IN ALL OF THOSE OCTOBERS.

MANAGERS MATTER IN THE POSTSEASON.

THEY DO NOT MATTER IN THE REGULAR SEASON. IT IS TOO LONG.

THIS IS NOT FOOTBALL.

There.

I shouted. I spoke in the simplest terms I could for you.

The next step is for me to really break it down Barney Style for you.

Are you really such an idiot as that, John OTC?

Your arguments are purile and lack an ounce of logic.

“You do it.”

Yeah. Real intelligent argument.

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The Dude,

Man, to state that Mark “owns” me I don’t think even Mark would assert. Honestly, Dude, you are the classic definition of “country dumb.”

Now go spit on your grits!

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So, if Bobby were a better manager, Lonnie Smith doesn’t fall for a decoy and Mark Wohlers doesn’t hang a slider. Those two plays are basically all that separate Bobby from being 3-2 in World Series competition. Oh, and let’s not forget Eric Gregg giving the Marlins the pivotal Game 5 of the ‘97 NLCS.

Now the game has apparently passed him by. But didn’t he just win the Sporting News Manager of the Year in 2005 by winning 90 games with a bunch of rookies? Oh yeah, he also won the award in 2004, 2003, 2002, 1999, 1993, 1991, & 1985. He also won the Baseball Writers Manager of the Year Award in 1985, 1991, 2004, & 2005. Of course, the geniuses on this blog know EVERYTHING about being the manager of a baseball team since they’ve mastered the idea behind the “double switch”. Sit back, relax, and accept the fact that playing rotisserie baseball or Strat-O-Matic only qualifies you to be a geek. The idiots that think Bobby is a liability probably think that Joe Torre or Tony LaRussa would be better options because they’ve won multiple World Series titles. Hey, Atlanta ran Joe Torre out of here, too, and it took LaRussa 30 years to get WS number 2, despite having the dominant team in the league for 5+ years with the A’s.

The problem isn’t the manager or the hitting coach. Nobody could win with the players Atlanta has had the past few years. If you put lipstick on a pig….

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Lefty,

For you to even insinuate that Joe Torre isn’t a better manager than Bobby Cox is ridiculous.

The 1996 Yankees were in NO WAY more talented than the 1996 Braves.

Which manager won that Series, Lefty?

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There’s a great cartoon, I believe from Charles Addams, that is most appropriate here. It’s of a football game, stands packed, players ramming each other on the field. The coach on the sidelines is turned toward the stands, his finger pointing at one particular guy. “You,” he says, “with all the advice. You go in for Kowalski!” While it’s so easy to criticize and belly-ache about the poor managing job Cox has done at times, I wonder how many excellent decisions he has made that none of us remembers or brings up? How many games that should have been lost were won because he made the right decision, brought in the right pinch hitter, brought in the right reliever, stayed with a guy one more time to bolster his confidence, etc. etc.? How many bone-headed decisions has Tony LaRussa made? How many times has he gone with someone too long or played the percentages and got burned? I remember quite clearly when Joe Torre won that division title with the Braves, with Jerry Royster doing a fantastic job for the injured Bob Horner. Horner got well right at the end and Torre put him in to play 3rd base in the playoffs, instead of the hot Royster. Dumb move? Absolutely! Take a look at Torre’s record before he moved to the $200 million, sky’s the limit Yankees. Not too good, very mediocre. Don’t forget, also, that Torre lost to the Wild Card Team three years in a row, once when he was ahead 3 games to none! I guess he doesn’t know how to manage in a short series either. I imagine Cox will retire soon, and you guys will be happy, until the next guy doesn’t do as well as Cox.

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If I’m Cox I get Don Sutton to explain to me how those ‘66 Dodgers won games and went to the Series. The Braves’ clubhouse should have a goal of getting to 4 runs each game, even if it means sacrificing, stealing bases, making productive outs. That’s when the team could get back into the black.

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Buggy. My point wasn’t simply “you do it.” I told you to go do better.

Since you can’t go win 14 straight and since no one else has ever managed a team to 14 (really 15 if you think about the Jays) titles I’m going to say that Bobby has done a great job. Maybe these particular Braves aren’t winning and maybe they’d be magic for another manager. I just believe that if a team can’t win for Bobby then the team can’t win for anyone.

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The manager has very little to do with winning world series. Pitching and timely hitting win titles.

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Lefty – OMG – You didn’t bring Eric Gregg into this did you?

I hated that man after that appalling sight. Clearly the Braves were not going to win that game. Eric Gregg made sure of that.

your post is absolutely – Right On! The Braves could easily be 3 – 2 in the WS or better and Bobby had very little to do with the losses. CArter hits a homerun! Pucket hits a homerun – and in the same game, lonnie runs liek a little leaguer.

Nice post IMHO

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zincc. Thanks, you too. I think Lefty has made some great points.

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Man o man

I want some of that stuff P Rose is on.
I could stand som dilussion right now.

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Does Larry and the Bug man not have jobs?

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Larry, You sir are an idiot! Bobby Cox is one of the best managers baseball has ever seen, period! I’m am not even going to delve into your pathetic reasoning for disliking Bobby, that would take too long, and I am not going to change your opinion, obviously…You (I can tell), are one of these pathetic fans that think you know more than you really do. You don’t know Bobby at all, you don’t know baseball or strategy, and you are a Monday Morning Quarterback who is an idiot. If I met someone as stupid as you, I’d probably punch you right in your stupid, opinionated face! Do us all a favor, and keep your dumb A$$ posts to yourself…

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Thank you Jeremiah

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Brian,

I agree with you 100%

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“MANAGERS MATTER IN THE POSTSEASON.

THEY DO NOT MATTER IN THE REGULAR SEASON. IT IS TOO LONG.”

Okay, for the clown who actually wrote this garbage, do you know anything about baseball? Most baseball people will tell you the EXACT opposite. The post season is a crap-shoot. Tom Kelly never lost a World Series, yet he’ll be the first to tell you that getting there was the battle. Once he was in the ‘87 & ‘91 WS, he rode Frank Viola and Jack Morris to two titles. Read his book! That’s when the manager gets out of the way and lets the players decide the game. His work was in spring training and the regular season.

Even today, many consider Ron Gardenhire to be one of the best managers in baseball. In reality, he hasn’t won much of anything, except the respect of his players, peers, and fans. The Twins are perennial contenders with NO payroll to speak of. How do they do it? They have a great manager who understands the importance of spring training and the regular season. The fact that the Twins haven’t won a World Series since 1991 doesn’t have beans to do with the quality of their manager, and the fact that the Braves only won a single title in 1995 doesn’t mean squat about Bobby Cox either. If Lonnie Smith walks from second to third, the Braves win in 1991 – not the manager’s fault.

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Jeremiah,

Please do not strike me simply because I’m stupid and opinionated. A real man would never hit another over a stupid opinion on a bog so my guess is you’re quite young, brash and quick tempered.

For the record I do not hate Bobby Cox, I actually kind of like him, and he’d be one of the first guys I’d want were I choosing a manager for non compensated players as he is likable, plays everyone, and allows a player to fail and fail giving him every opportunity–to a fault–to correct his swing or delivery. On the contrary, this is professional sports and I have have been paying thousands and thousands of dollars for my “Hank Aaron” seats, parking passes and ludicrous prices for food and refreshments since 1991 so I am completely exhausted at watching little league baseball management in the World Series!

Trust me, Jeremiah, I’m more annoyed and these meek, girl men sportswriters who secretly want to be on radio and TV stations and continue to gain access to the Braves clubhouse buffet and thus choose to avoid tough journalism so they can stay on good terms with certain teams and companies that I am angered by Bobby Cox game decisions. Bobby Cox is what is is, but I think he probably does what he thinks is right even if I happen to disagree or think he’s wrong. At least he has some integrity!

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[1-14 last game record] “I would consider this to be this most important of statistics in that Bobby ”

I would disagree. I think it is one of the most assine stats on the planet to judge a good manager. Almost every time this ridiculous stat is brought up the person hoisting it to the top of foolish reasons to fire a manager turns around and says Leyland is a better manager despite being bested by Cox in the post season.

Aside from that, 1-14 also includes games like, oh let’s see… Joey Devine and the great NLDS. But it wasn’t all Joey’s fault. Kyle Farnswoth, the Braves best reliever down the stretch, blew that with his grandslam pitch to Berkman and then his fat homer to Ausmus.

Cox calls on the guys that have done well, and those guys for the most part have failed. But to a “1-14″ type stat, this is irrelavent. Cox should have choose some one else, or done the work himself. If the final charge was left in the hands of Chipper Jones, or even Hank Aaron and Bobby was managing, a loss made final by Jones or Aaron would be ruled Bobby’s fault by these armchair managers.

I have yet to read or hear a valid reason as to why Bobby Cox is not a good manager. I blame the players. It’s the Jeff Francoeur singles-hitters and Kelly Johnson out machines and brick gloves that prevent a team from winning. The Todd Pratt, Corky Miller, and all the rest of the crap that has sat on the bench the last few years.

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Bobby is not the best tactician but a very good manager of people. Nevertheless, he has earned the right to lead the Braves for as long as he wants. I wouldn’t be too disappointed when he does decide to hang it up but the next guy is likely not nearly as good as Bobby.

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Tenn-Paul, Just where did infro come from that TP will be next Mgr. Thats just BS, did John, Frank are Bobby say that. Hell no.

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strong> Coach ( 2010 or Bust)

I have to call you out o this one
The fact that his team was involved in 132 post season games strong>speaks for itself How many managers have a record like that. Apparently you have the time to look that up. 5 game series and 7 game series are a real toss up.

I read a lot of your posts and agree and disagree, but this one really demonstrates your tiring ability to take a stat and SPIN it in your direction.

All I can say to you is 14 years in a row and 132 (based on your stats) post season games speaks volumes to a man’s greatness as a manager.

Go stick your head in the sand, you’d be better off and probably a hole lot happier. Grumpy!.

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We are not going to score GOBS of runs this season. This team DESPERATELY needs to work on getting runs in with less than two outs.

THAT DOES REFLECT ON A COACHING PHILOSOPHY.

Get them on, get them over and get them in. One at a time if necessary but without power that is what you MUST do to win.

5-9 in the lineup who drives the ball? Who?

We lose games because of this and until this coaching staff stops trying to make these bottom of the lineup hitters into sluggers we will continue to drop series after series.

Go series by series the last six weeks and see how many games we could have won if players had just made the right kind of out. The pitching has been great for the most part.

An aware coaching staff would have the Braves in first place RIGHT NOW. They would have won most of those series. By aware I mean KNOW YOUR TEAM and KNOW THEIR LIMITATIONS.

Last night, they got the job done. We’ll see from here on.

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poorjeff….why would they talk about who the next manager is when they haven’t gotten rid of this one. That just doesn’t make sense

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adam, i agree with what you are saying in that the braves have not done enough of the little things to get runs in but I don’t think it is bobby cox’s fault. When they get runners on third with less than 2 outs, everyone knows what they should be doing but they are hitting into double plays or striking out. To me that speaks to the players not being consistent enough and making quality outs. Trust me, these players have played their entire lives, they know what they should be doing. Just need to execute in my opinion

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Give these guys the bunt sign tim. MAKE THEM GIVE THE AT BAT UP.

If they get pissed and want to leave as free agents, let them go!

An extra 1-2 runs a game puts us well over .500.

If Francouer knew what to do he wouldn’t consistently ground into inning-killing DPs.

If Johnson knew what to do he wouldn’t swing at 1st pitches and roll over.

We all criticize Yunel for this and that but did you see that drag bunt over the weekend. One of the best drags I’ve seen in many years. THAT IS WINNING BASEBALL.

Mix it up. This team, with this inconsistency, needs more of that. If we average 4 runs a game the rest of the season, we will be in the race.

Problem is, we score most of our runs with 2 outs — which means NO big innings.

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Aristole played for Brooklyn and Pythagoras played for the Boston Braves.

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Someone from another system, not Braves.

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Bobby won a World Series against a team that had a .694 winning %, that batted .291, hit 207 HRs in only 144 games, and had a team ERA of 3.84 in a league that uses the DH. The team he won with batted .250 and had an ERA of 3.54 in the NL regular season, and yet in the WS outscored, outhit, and outpitched one of the best teams in recent history.

Nobody can ever accuse Bobby Cox of not being able to get the best from his team. He can manage us till he keels, for all I care.

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The Dude,

Yeah, sure, and I’m a dancer at the Chetah at night but during the day I’m enrolled at Georgia Tech pursuing my degree in Algorithms, Combinatorics, & Optimization.

Want to see how flexible I am?

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No Bobby Cox superfan here, but the 1-14 last game in post-season means nothing. All else being equal, there would only be a 1 in 8 chance of winning it all.

I beat Cox, Maddux and Glavine up together. After the Leyritz home run these three were post-season disasters for the rest of the run, with particular scorn in 97. Is not Glavine the losingest post-season pitcher in history. Maddux lost the last game to that awful Philly team in 93 and after losing only twice during regular season, coughed up a big loss in game 5 in 95

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As best I remember, Cox went with a three pitcher rotation in the playoffs, which usually killed us at the end of the series when pitching on short rest.

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What are the statitics of wins vs loss when Cox puts his closer in the game when the score is tied vs when the Braves are in the lead? Game after game the “closer” does his job, is removed from the game, and the Braves lose while the opposition feeds off the next reliever. Am I the only one out here who wonders about this?

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Good debate. Both sides have valid points.

For what it’s worth, the ‘91 Game 6 Puckett homer is a moot point if Lonnie Smith doesn’t get deeked in the 8th inning of Game 7 by Gagne and Knoblach on Pendleton’s double.

And they probably win Game 4 of the ‘96 series if Wohlers doesn’t throw a 2–2 slider to Leyritz. That still kills me. Why did he go to the slider? I highly doubt Bobby told him to go away from the heat.

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Fred it was his “forkball” — the same forkball Raul Mondesi hit a 450-foot shot off of him earlier in the season. Should have learned from that. Pitch to Leyritz was the worst called pitch in 43 years of following this team because they did not learn from the Mondesi HR.

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Why don’t you go somewhere else and write you stupid and ugly columns.
And take your smart asses with you.

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This just means that 60% of those surveyed don’t know their rear from first base. Anybody remember Leeman Bennett of the Falcons. Hope I spelled it right.The next coach was going to take us to the next level. It took years to recover from that firing. Back to the Braves. Our fans are fickle. Was it coaching that made that pop fly drop in the field between Escobar and Chipper? The list goes on and on. Wake up Atlanta. You have one of the best managers in baseball. Maybe giving him some support instead of whining would help.

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Did Cox throw the slider to Leyritz that cost us one WS? Did he tell Lonnie Smith to stop running costing us another?

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somone suggested tommy and mad dog shouldent have started game one and two this genius would have started liebrandt and there would have been no need for micmichels or wohlers lol

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I had to comment. I can’t believe Mark and all the Cox supporters. I agree with Larry and Bug Killer. I grew up in South GA and have followed the Braves since 1966. That should qualify me as an expert on the Braves. BOBBY COX IS A TERRIBLE MANAGER. Heck, I could have won 1 WS with 3 Cy Young winners and Steve Avery. He can not manage close games, and that’s usually what you have in the WS. Ever since he lost his Cy Young pitchers, Cox’s incompetency has shown through. A good manager should be able to manufacture a run or two in a game. But not Cox. He doesn’t know what hit & run or a stolen base is. Two playoffs stand out: the WS where Morris beat Smoltz in 10 innings, Cox played Bream at 1B when Brian Hunter was a much better hitter, and that atrocious game where he started the weak hitting bench against San Diego instead of his best players. I wanted to drive down from L.A. and kick his butt myself. Mark, your logic sucks. To make the points in support of Cox. Yeah, he leads in getting thrown out of games. H e’s always whining and arguing balls and strikes when he continues to trot out sorry relief pitchers. And Charlie Liebrandt, oh please! Obviously you and Bobby don’t realize that soft tossers get lit up in the WS. That’s why Smoltz was much more successful than Maddox in the playoffs.
Again, if you give Cox the credit for success, then you should give him credit for the failures. If the game is close in the 8th or 9th, guess who usually wins? He is trying to make Escobar the scapegoat, but ignores the errors of Chipper (15+ years of experience). If any positive changes are made, it appears to be the GM. Bobby runs the same hitters out every game even when they are batting under .100. COX NEEDS TO GO.

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Justafan — I respect anyone who’s been as faithful to the Braves as you. I admire your enthusiasm for the game and appreciate you taking a stand on something important to you, even if we don’t agree on that particular point. You might be right and I might be wrong.

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I appreciate most of Bobby’s body of work, but he just makes too many moves that leave you saying “What the heck?!?”

For instance – we’re up by 5 or 6 runs agains the BoSox on Friday, and he uses our top 3 relievers. We’re tied in the bottom of the 9th, and he puts in Jeff Bennett (whose WHIP is nearing 2) with Rafael Soriano fresh in the bullpen.

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I would argue that Bobby is a better postseason manager than a regular season manager and that Bobby got better toward the latter years of the postseason runs even though they hadn’t advanced past the 1st rounders.

Bobby totally outmanaged Phil Garner in 2005. In fact, as the season went along, it seemed as if Garner was learning from Cox. The players just didn’t produce, and the playoffs, especially in their current format, are a crapshoot. If you ask every MLB manager (and it’s been done), the consensus is to get to the playoffs. The Cards winning it all, the Rockies making the World Series, etc.. is proof that it’s all a crapshoot.

Bobby did a lot more to build this organization than draft #1 draft picks. Back in the day, #1 draft picks themselves were crapshoots, nothing like today. But, Bobby restructured the whole farm system top to bottom by bringing in the right people.

Where it was a system wide strategy to “throw low and away” that same strategy needs to be implemented with hitting. The hitters we produce suck, and I think that should start with Cox, like Torre did wtih the Dodgers last year when emphasizing “good at-bats”. Bobby needs to create some kind of offensive strategy or get guys moving on the basepaths. He could also make a few changes (2nd/RF?) to help this ballclub.

In conclusion, I do think that a change can be good for this team. But, Bobby has earned the respect to coach as long as he desires. The man is a living legend.

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LANDSLIDE – I was under the impression that Chuck Tanner had a winning percentage of .424 with the Braves, while Cox has a .556. I must have slept through the WS he won while he was in Atlanta. And I’m not your son; if I were I would have you committed.

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Larry, Do you really think that Bobby Cox is entirely to blame for 1-14? Even assuming, for argument, that it’s a legitimate statistic, how much effect do you think a manager can have in a single game? You can take absolutely any manager’s record and break it down like that. It’s fair enough to argue that he has made tactical and strategic blunders, but to say that’s the reason that the Braves lost all those games is the height of absurdity. As you acknowledge, they were playing pretty good teams and there was a good chance they would have lost regardless of what Cox did. Was it Cox’s fault that Lonnie Smith didn’t score on a double in the gap against the Twins or that the heart of the order couldn’t get a run in with runners on second and third and no outs? Was it Cox’s fault that Mark Prior and Kerry Wood dominated the supposedly great Braves offense?

It’s also ridiculous to ignore the games he won. You are saying that the only reason he won in 1995 was because of Glavine but you don’t seem to blame the players for the losses. That’s simply unfair.

My feeling is that baseball manager is the most overrated position in sports. A manager isn’t like a football or basketball coach, whose strategy and tactics really make a difference. In baseball, it makes very little difference. No one claims Cito Gaston is a great tactical manager but he won two World Series. Why? Because he had great players.

As for talent, I don’t think the Braves had exceptional talent, except for the pitching. The lineups were nothing to write home about and this was proven year after year in the playoffs when they failed to hit. Was that Cox’s fault? David Justice was a good but not great player, same for Ron Gant, etc. If anyone is to blame, it’s John Schuerholz for ignoring the bench and the bullpen–he consistenly focused on the starting rotation to the exclusion of other parts of the team that became real weaknesses in the post-season.

I agree that Bobby is not the greatest tactician in baseball, but it’s utterly unfair to blame him for those losses.

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To the person that mentioned “U.S. Govt Schools”–you do understand, don’t you, that the U.S. Government does not run any schools other than the Service Academies?

Re Cox: I think he has his problems, especially now, but I can’t understand the willingness to apparently blame Cox 100% for the playoff losses. You can argue that he contributed to them but how can you say ANY

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Thank you Bug Killer for your 11:16 post. You put into words, what I have been struggling with for years. Thank you!

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Lots of good debate here! I want to address the “working the count” issue. If you take a pitch, and it’s a strike, you’re down 0-1. Behind in the count. You take another, or foul it off, you’re down 0-2. Now you’re hitting defensively. You can work the count by fouling off pitches (if you can, but the whole at bat is played defensively, where your chance for a hit goes down.

There is nothing wrong with swinging early in the count, if they are good pitches. What frustrates me is when a pitcher walks 2 in a row, and the next batter swings at the first pitch, either missing, fouling it off, or grounding or popping up into an out or double play.

You can try to work the count all you want, but the key is hitting YOUR pitch and not the pitcher’s. When Francouer or Diaz swing at the ones in the dirt (or over their head), and take (or foul off) the one’s down the middle, it’s hard to fault Bobby. He could sit them down, but for who? Blanco? Does Blanco give us a better chance for an RBI with a runner on base than Francouer?

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Mark, I totally agree with you on Bobby Cox. I think he should have been gone several years ago. I also think the Braves need to clean house at the top. I’m not impressed with Frank Wren. Terry Pendleton isn’t getting the job done either! I’ve never seen a team where no one was hitting! And the mental errors have been costly. They are not playing good fundamental baseball and it has cost games. Time to clean house and get a new regime going. Maybe then we will make some progress back to a good, winning team.

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