Survey says: Bobby Cox has supporters. Who knew?
You dared me to pose the question in poll form. Being daring, I did. I asked last week, “Do the Braves need a new manager?” I was sure I knew what the majority would say, but it was a thinner majority than I expected.
Sixty percent of roughly 2,000 respondents said the Braves do in fact need a new manager. I figured it would be 70-30, maybe even 80-20. And why did I think that?
Because I read the comments on the ol’ blog.
And I’ve grown accustomed to the anti-Cox rants. How he blew all those World Series. How he’s 1-14 in the final game of the postseason. (Not, mind you, in the final game of a postseason series — let’s not give him any credit for winning the NLCS five times or an NLDS six times — or even in elimination games.) How he’s a terrible tactician. How he shouldn’t have brought in Leibrandt to face Puckett. (Even though Leibrandt had faced Puckett in that World Series twice already — and had twice struck him out.)
I’ve been called an idiot for my support of Bobby Cox so often I assumed I was alone in the universe. Turns out I’m not. Turns out 40 percent of our poll’s respondents — admittedly, this is an unscientific survey, but you could vote only once per computer — decided the skipper isn’t so maladroit after all.
And even though what I wrote wasn’t entirely an endorsement of Cox as manager of the 2009 Braves, I was heartened to see that some folks appreciate a body of work. The old baseball man Rocky Bridges once said: “There are three things the average man thinks he can do better than anybody else: Build a fire, run a hotel, and manage a baseball team.”
Apparently 40 percent of our voters either weren’t quite average — or weren’t men.
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224 comments Add your comment
Shane (The original)
June 23rd, 2009
7:04 pm
Did Cox throw the slider to Leyritz that cost us one WS? Did he tell Lonnie Smith to stop running costing us another?
farmer
June 23rd, 2009
7:04 pm
I love bobby, I really do. He has done so much for this team as a manager and even general manager before that, drafting Glavine, trading for Smoltz, drafting Chipper, etc. He built the foundation for this club duirng that great run they had. But, I do believe he is to blame for some of the decisions madr during the postseason, especially some highly questionable moves in those World Series which they lost. We should have had at least 3 titles during that span. I do believe it is time for him to step down and let some new blood run hte team. He is a hall of famer, no doubt, a true pioneer of the game, and a beloved figure to most fans. Bobby, you are a great person manager, but the writing is on the wall, pal.
hal
June 23rd, 2009
7:08 pm
somone suggested tommy and mad dog shouldent have started game one and two this genius would have started liebrandt and there would have been no need for micmichels or wohlers lol
TennesseePaul
June 23rd, 2009
7:22 pm
varodrunner: Nice, list all the retired players. That proves the point well. Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Mickey Mantle, etc…
No need for the list of retired souls. Since we are playing “would-a-could-a-should-a”…. This past off-season the team could have done better with a trade of, or demotion of, Kelly Johnson and Jeff Francoeur. Kelly could have been replaced with Orlando Hudson. Francoeur could be replaced with any number of guys capable of slugging over .350, like say, Nick Swisher or X Nady.
McLouth
Hudson
Chipper
McCann
Yunel
Kotchman
Swisher
Anderson
Pitcher
You can jumble that line up almost any way you want and it is increasingly better than the current gig.
William, Pasadena, CA
June 23rd, 2009
7:49 pm
I had to comment. I can’t believe Mark and all the Cox supporters. I agree with Larry and Bug Killer. I grew up in South GA and have followed the Braves since 1966. That should qualify me as an expert on the Braves. BOBBY COX IS A TERRIBLE MANAGER. Heck, I could have won 1 WS with 3 Cy Young winners and Steve Avery. He can not manage close games, and that’s usually what you have in the WS. Ever since he lost his Cy Young pitchers, Cox’s incompetency has shown through. A good manager should be able to manufacture a run or two in a game. But not Cox. He doesn’t know what hit & run or a stolen base is. Two playoffs stand out: the WS where Morris beat Smoltz in 10 innings, Cox played Bream at 1B when Brian Hunter was a much better hitter, and that atrocious game where he started the weak hitting bench against San Diego instead of his best players. I wanted to drive down from L.A. and kick his butt myself. Mark, your logic sucks. To make the points in support of Cox. Yeah, he leads in getting thrown out of games. H e’s always whining and arguing balls and strikes when he continues to trot out sorry relief pitchers. And Charlie Liebrandt, oh please! Obviously you and Bobby don’t realize that soft tossers get lit up in the WS. That’s why Smoltz was much more successful than Maddox in the playoffs.
Again, if you give Cox the credit for success, then you should give him credit for the failures. If the game is close in the 8th or 9th, guess who usually wins? He is trying to make Escobar the scapegoat, but ignores the errors of Chipper (15+ years of experience). If any positive changes are made, it appears to be the GM. Bobby runs the same hitters out every game even when they are batting under .100. COX NEEDS TO GO.
Larry
June 23rd, 2009
9:12 pm
Shane (The original),
I know you’re trying to come off as a real bright kind of guy and perhaps we “metal midgets” couldn’t possibly comprehend such elevated cognitive abilities you possess. However, should you review the syntax, diction and basic spelling of your post prior to tapping that “submit” button you may just get away with a more convincing argument of your intellectual superiority.
Which of our distinguished Atlanta Public Schools did you attend, Shane (The original)?
Ted Striker
June 23rd, 2009
9:56 pm
Justafan — I respect anyone who’s been as faithful to the Braves as you. I admire your enthusiasm for the game and appreciate you taking a stand on something important to you, even if we don’t agree on that particular point. You might be right and I might be wrong.
chrismcd
June 23rd, 2009
11:47 pm
And for those who suffered through the worst years of Atlanta history sports wise in the 1970s and 1980s let me be the first to tip my hat to Bobby Cox for getting this team TO the playoffs 14 straight years. Yes we’ve had a rough patch recently but those who appreciate how hard it is for teams to win year in and year out especially in the modern era of free agency I think Bobby has done one hell of a job. I think the most striking thing about him is even during the past few years he’s managed the same with less talent. He steps on the field to win and thats what you expect from a manager. Baseball is not rocket science and things happen with injuries, a hit there, an error there, a missed call and an entire season can go down the toilet. Give the man his due. The day will come when someone else will sit in the dugout managing this team and we’ll see then just how all these calling for Bobby’s head will respond when someone new comes in and finds out Bobby was not so bad a manager after all. I remember when we fired Torre after three fairly good years of baseball only to have Chuck Tanner, and Russ Nixon making us realize just how stupid that move was. ONly in Atlanta do we see 14 straight years of winning baseball as a failure. Sad.
jeffrey d
June 23rd, 2009
11:49 pm
I appreciate most of Bobby’s body of work, but he just makes too many moves that leave you saying “What the heck?!?”
For instance – we’re up by 5 or 6 runs agains the BoSox on Friday, and he uses our top 3 relievers. We’re tied in the bottom of the 9th, and he puts in Jeff Bennett (whose WHIP is nearing 2) with Rafael Soriano fresh in the bullpen.
Jeremiah
June 24th, 2009
1:02 am
Shane (The Original), may be some jerk from up north, but he is right about two things: 1. The Georgia education system is pathetic, (but all US Govt. Schools are by comparison to the rest of the world). 2. Bobby Cox is one of the best of all time, Larry and the rest are just plain WRONG! The stats alone prove this point! While, I am definitely a Braves fan, I am also ashamed at the idiotic, poor Atlanta fans in general. Since I travel for work, I see lots of games in other cities, and particularly in the northeast, the fan support is amazing!
Larry, I would not punch you, I was exaggerating for effect at how ridiculously illogical your point of view is. That being said, the more of your posts I read, the more you seem like the type of dude that needs a good punch in the face. It is obvious you are full of yourself. I’m not impressed…and I am pretty sure Mark Bradley is not either. It’s not just that your viewpoints make no sense, other than to show your true lack of baseball knowledge, it’s the way you say (write) them…You come off like a jerk, and I imagine that you are.
Bobby's Cox
June 24th, 2009
4:47 am
I would argue that Bobby is a better postseason manager than a regular season manager and that Bobby got better toward the latter years of the postseason runs even though they hadn’t advanced past the 1st rounders.
Bobby totally outmanaged Phil Garner in 2005. In fact, as the season went along, it seemed as if Garner was learning from Cox. The players just didn’t produce, and the playoffs, especially in their current format, are a crapshoot. If you ask every MLB manager (and it’s been done), the consensus is to get to the playoffs. The Cards winning it all, the Rockies making the World Series, etc.. is proof that it’s all a crapshoot.
Bobby did a lot more to build this organization than draft #1 draft picks. Back in the day, #1 draft picks themselves were crapshoots, nothing like today. But, Bobby restructured the whole farm system top to bottom by bringing in the right people.
Where it was a system wide strategy to “throw low and away” that same strategy needs to be implemented with hitting. The hitters we produce suck, and I think that should start with Cox, like Torre did wtih the Dodgers last year when emphasizing “good at-bats”. Bobby needs to create some kind of offensive strategy or get guys moving on the basepaths. He could also make a few changes (2nd/RF?) to help this ballclub.
In conclusion, I do think that a change can be good for this team. But, Bobby has earned the respect to coach as long as he desires. The man is a living legend.
John OTC
June 24th, 2009
7:39 am
If we fire Bobby, we deserve whatever we get.
BUCK
June 24th, 2009
9:05 am
LANDSLIDE – I was under the impression that Chuck Tanner had a winning percentage of .424 with the Braves, while Cox has a .556. I must have slept through the WS he won while he was in Atlanta. And I’m not your son; if I were I would have you committed.
Don
June 24th, 2009
9:28 am
Why do baseball writers, commentators etc. protect Bobby Cox when he is one of baseball’s all time worst offensive managers – failing to understand or implement the most basic absolute essential of offensive management. They hide the fact that Cox’s offensive management or lack thereof has the Braves next to last in all of baseball in average number of pitches seen per at bat – guaranteeing that they will not product runs effectively or be competitive. By far the most important essential in offensive management is developing an approach by your hitters that works the count – makes the opposing pitcher throw a lot of pitches which has multiple advantages – enables your hitters to see what he has, adjust to him, get better pitches to hit, makes him make mistakes, wears him down both within innings and for the game, gets you into their weak middle relief, etc. etc. How can Cox (and baseball writers) not understand this. It’s like 2 + 2 = 4. Cox seems to have absolutely no understanding of this or seems to make no effort to this end. This is absurd.
Marc Schneider
June 24th, 2009
9:35 am
Larry, Do you really think that Bobby Cox is entirely to blame for 1-14? Even assuming, for argument, that it’s a legitimate statistic, how much effect do you think a manager can have in a single game? You can take absolutely any manager’s record and break it down like that. It’s fair enough to argue that he has made tactical and strategic blunders, but to say that’s the reason that the Braves lost all those games is the height of absurdity. As you acknowledge, they were playing pretty good teams and there was a good chance they would have lost regardless of what Cox did. Was it Cox’s fault that Lonnie Smith didn’t score on a double in the gap against the Twins or that the heart of the order couldn’t get a run in with runners on second and third and no outs? Was it Cox’s fault that Mark Prior and Kerry Wood dominated the supposedly great Braves offense?
It’s also ridiculous to ignore the games he won. You are saying that the only reason he won in 1995 was because of Glavine but you don’t seem to blame the players for the losses. That’s simply unfair.
My feeling is that baseball manager is the most overrated position in sports. A manager isn’t like a football or basketball coach, whose strategy and tactics really make a difference. In baseball, it makes very little difference. No one claims Cito Gaston is a great tactical manager but he won two World Series. Why? Because he had great players.
As for talent, I don’t think the Braves had exceptional talent, except for the pitching. The lineups were nothing to write home about and this was proven year after year in the playoffs when they failed to hit. Was that Cox’s fault? David Justice was a good but not great player, same for Ron Gant, etc. If anyone is to blame, it’s John Schuerholz for ignoring the bench and the bullpen–he consistenly focused on the starting rotation to the exclusion of other parts of the team that became real weaknesses in the post-season.
I agree that Bobby is not the greatest tactician in baseball, but it’s utterly unfair to blame him for those losses.
Marc Schneider
June 24th, 2009
9:37 am
Homer,
There’s a genius comment–fire anyone that writes something you disagree with. Glad you are so open minder.
Marc Schneider
June 24th, 2009
9:42 am
To the person that mentioned “U.S. Govt Schools”–you do understand, don’t you, that the U.S. Government does not run any schools other than the Service Academies?
Re Cox: I think he has his problems, especially now, but I can’t understand the willingness to apparently blame Cox 100% for the playoff losses. You can argue that he contributed to them but how can you say ANY
Marc Schneider
June 24th, 2009
9:56 am
Continued–I accidentally hit the submit button.
I don’t understand how someone can give a MANAGER 100% of the responsibility for losing a game. Baseball managers do not have nearly as much impact on the game as do football and basketball coaches. Even if Bobby made mistakes–which he certainly did and as essentially every manager in the history of baseball has done–it’s absurd to say that he is THE reason they lost.
As much as people here want to pooh-pooh the notion that the playoffs is a crapshoot, it’s true. All you have to do is look at teams like the Cardinals that were lucky to get in the playoffs and then won the WS or the Rockies–basically a .500 team that got hot at the right time and went to the World Series–to realize that. No one wants to acknowledge that much of what happens in baseball is random, but it is, at least in the playoffs.
I don’t understand how you can simply exonerate the players. Is it Cox’s fault that Lonnie Smith didn’t score on the hit against Twins, or that Mark Wohlers hung a slider to Leyritz? Larry might have a point that Cox was too conservative in a lot of the playoff games–I certainly think he is today–but the fact is, if the players had performed the way they were supposed to, it wouldn’t have mattered.
Also, contrary to conventional wisdom, the Braves talent during the 90s, other than the pitching, wasn’t that exceptional. In general, they had a bunch of good players but they were hardly juggernauts. They weren’t nearly as good as, say, the Blue Jays and the Yankees or, for that matter, the Marlins, who had handled the Braves pretty well in the regular season. Yes, they lost to some teams that were arguably inferior–the Phillies, Astros, Cubs–but, in most cases, the teams that beat them were simply better.
IMO, if anyone is to blame, it’s Scheurholz. Throughout the run, he consistently shortchanged the bench and the bullpen in favor of the starting pitching. When the playoffs came, the Braves had relatively weak lineups with especially weak benches and bullpens. The one time they won, they had a substantially better bench, with Devereau and Polonia and a solid bullpen. For most of the run, they did not have this and these lacks probably contributed to Cox having to put in guys in the wrong situations.
I think it’s silly to give a manager credit for his wins but no blame for his losses. But it’s just as silly to ignore his wins and blame him entirely for the losses, especially when it’s so selective.
DMac
June 24th, 2009
10:25 am
Thank you Bug Killer for your 11:16 post. You put into words, what I have been struggling with for years. Thank you!
jarvis
June 24th, 2009
10:40 am
By Larry’s logic Mike Krzyzewski is 3-17 and Dean Smith is 2-23 in “last games of the season”. I don’t follow the validity of that statistic.
P-Man
June 24th, 2009
11:37 am
Lots of good debate here! I want to address the “working the count” issue. If you take a pitch, and it’s a strike, you’re down 0-1. Behind in the count. You take another, or foul it off, you’re down 0-2. Now you’re hitting defensively. You can work the count by fouling off pitches (if you can, but the whole at bat is played defensively, where your chance for a hit goes down.
There is nothing wrong with swinging early in the count, if they are good pitches. What frustrates me is when a pitcher walks 2 in a row, and the next batter swings at the first pitch, either missing, fouling it off, or grounding or popping up into an out or double play.
You can try to work the count all you want, but the key is hitting YOUR pitch and not the pitcher’s. When Francouer or Diaz swing at the ones in the dirt (or over their head), and take (or foul off) the one’s down the middle, it’s hard to fault Bobby. He could sit them down, but for who? Blanco? Does Blanco give us a better chance for an RBI with a runner on base than Francouer?
P-Man
June 24th, 2009
11:38 am
You can only play with the cards you’re dealt!
Barbara Reynolds
June 28th, 2009
1:38 pm
Mark, I totally agree with you on Bobby Cox. I think he should have been gone several years ago. I also think the Braves need to clean house at the top. I’m not impressed with Frank Wren. Terry Pendleton isn’t getting the job done either! I’ve never seen a team where no one was hitting! And the mental errors have been costly. They are not playing good fundamental baseball and it has cost games. Time to clean house and get a new regime going. Maybe then we will make some progress back to a good, winning team.
Atlanta Braves: Bobby Cox vs. Lou Piniella - Which managerial approach works best? | ajc Sports Talk
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[...] AJC columnist Mark Bradley asked readers if the Braves needed to say goodbye to longtime manager Bobby Cox, he found that although most fans who responded to his poll said they would like a change at the [...]