Survey says: Bobby Cox has supporters. Who knew?
You dared me to pose the question in poll form. Being daring, I did. I asked last week, “Do the Braves need a new manager?” I was sure I knew what the majority would say, but it was a thinner majority than I expected.
Sixty percent of roughly 2,000 respondents said the Braves do in fact need a new manager. I figured it would be 70-30, maybe even 80-20. And why did I think that?
Because I read the comments on the ol’ blog.
And I’ve grown accustomed to the anti-Cox rants. How he blew all those World Series. How he’s 1-14 in the final game of the postseason. (Not, mind you, in the final game of a postseason series — let’s not give him any credit for winning the NLCS five times or an NLDS six times — or even in elimination games.) How he’s a terrible tactician. How he shouldn’t have brought in Leibrandt to face Puckett. (Even though Leibrandt had faced Puckett in that World Series twice already — and had twice struck him out.)
I’ve been called an idiot for my support of Bobby Cox so often I assumed I was alone in the universe. Turns out I’m not. Turns out 40 percent of our poll’s respondents — admittedly, this is an unscientific survey, but you could vote only once per computer — decided the skipper isn’t so maladroit after all.
And even though what I wrote wasn’t entirely an endorsement of Cox as manager of the 2009 Braves, I was heartened to see that some folks appreciate a body of work. The old baseball man Rocky Bridges once said: “There are three things the average man thinks he can do better than anybody else: Build a fire, run a hotel, and manage a baseball team.”
Apparently 40 percent of our voters either weren’t quite average — or weren’t men.
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224 comments Add your comment
Bobby Cox
June 23rd, 2009
1:58 pm
Does Larry and the Bug man not have jobs?
varodrunner
June 23rd, 2009
1:59 pm
Mark
Thanks for the clarification and I could not agree more. Bobby has had a wonderful managerial career and is one of, is not the best, manager in MLB history. I sadly say tho, I think his time has passed.
Jeremiah
June 23rd, 2009
2:05 pm
Larry, You sir are an idiot! Bobby Cox is one of the best managers baseball has ever seen, period! I’m am not even going to delve into your pathetic reasoning for disliking Bobby, that would take too long, and I am not going to change your opinion, obviously…You (I can tell), are one of these pathetic fans that think you know more than you really do. You don’t know Bobby at all, you don’t know baseball or strategy, and you are a Monday Morning Quarterback who is an idiot. If I met someone as stupid as you, I’d probably punch you right in your stupid, opinionated face! Do us all a favor, and keep your dumb A$$ posts to yourself…
varodrunner
June 23rd, 2009
2:06 pm
Slow post – sorry for the double post
Bobby Cox
June 23rd, 2009
2:12 pm
Thank you Jeremiah
Justafan
June 23rd, 2009
2:24 pm
Ted Striker, In 330 BC nearly 80 % of the people didn’t know Aristotle and Pythagoras. Today I’d bet 25 % of people still don’t know them and 20 % or more don’t know if world is round or not. I’d bet 40% don’t know the VP of USA. Some don’t know the Pres?
I do like Bobby Cox as a person. Even been fishing with him but that don’t have nothing to do with Baseball. Yes, Bobby knows more baseball than me. So What does that prove?
Now for the rest of the story. Boston College- like soon? Betty Crooker -Yes. British Columbia its ok. Birth Control-Yes. Bacon Cheeseburgers- Love!!!!!!!!!!!
Ted, I even like you. You have a right to your opinion.
P-Man
June 23rd, 2009
2:30 pm
Brian,
I agree with you 100%
ChopHasFlopped
June 23rd, 2009
2:35 pm
I find it laughable that 1992 is being debated. It says something about where this team has been mired in the last number of years. I was pleased last night to see Atlanta do some small things to win the game. I would love to see more of this. Did anyone notice that Martin Prado replaced Kelly Johnson at second and made two really good plays? Did anyone notice that Frenchy had two more hits? If I am not mistaken, Atlanta won without their big two doing a whole lot. This has been the case with Chipper for a while. He’ll be back. I would love to see Atlanta deal for Felipe Lopez of Arizona and insert him at First base. I also notice that Ken Rosenthal says that Atlanta may be a destination for Troy Glaus when he recovers. Let’s see, Glaus at first, Lopez at second, plus another outfielder and we may be hitting on something!
Lefty
June 23rd, 2009
2:38 pm
“MANAGERS MATTER IN THE POSTSEASON.
THEY DO NOT MATTER IN THE REGULAR SEASON. IT IS TOO LONG.”
Okay, for the clown who actually wrote this garbage, do you know anything about baseball? Most baseball people will tell you the EXACT opposite. The post season is a crap-shoot. Tom Kelly never lost a World Series, yet he’ll be the first to tell you that getting there was the battle. Once he was in the ‘87 & ‘91 WS, he rode Frank Viola and Jack Morris to two titles. Read his book! That’s when the manager gets out of the way and lets the players decide the game. His work was in spring training and the regular season.
Even today, many consider Ron Gardenhire to be one of the best managers in baseball. In reality, he hasn’t won much of anything, except the respect of his players, peers, and fans. The Twins are perennial contenders with NO payroll to speak of. How do they do it? They have a great manager who understands the importance of spring training and the regular season. The fact that the Twins haven’t won a World Series since 1991 doesn’t have beans to do with the quality of their manager, and the fact that the Braves only won a single title in 1995 doesn’t mean squat about Bobby Cox either. If Lonnie Smith walks from second to third, the Braves win in 1991 – not the manager’s fault.
Hillbilly Deluxe
June 23rd, 2009
2:47 pm
In my view you can judge a manager by his record in one run games. Those are games where he can make a difference. A manager can’t do much to change a 9-0 win ir a 9-0 loss. (I have no idea what Cox’s record is in one run games by the way).
What I always thought hurt the Bobby Cox teams (both Atlanta and Toronto) in the post season was that they were weak on the fundamentals (base running, moving runners over, etc.). The little things are magnified in a short series aand every play means something.
Larry
June 23rd, 2009
2:48 pm
Jeremiah,
Please do not strike me simply because I’m stupid and opinionated. A real man would never hit another over a stupid opinion on a bog so my guess is you’re quite young, brash and quick tempered.
For the record I do not hate Bobby Cox, I actually kind of like him, and he’d be one of the first guys I’d want were I choosing a manager for non compensated players as he is likable, plays everyone, and allows a player to fail and fail giving him every opportunity–to a fault–to correct his swing or delivery. On the contrary, this is professional sports and I have have been paying thousands and thousands of dollars for my “Hank Aaron” seats, parking passes and ludicrous prices for food and refreshments since 1991 so I am completely exhausted at watching little league baseball management in the World Series!
Trust me, Jeremiah, I’m more annoyed and these meek, girl men sportswriters who secretly want to be on radio and TV stations and continue to gain access to the Braves clubhouse buffet and thus choose to avoid tough journalism so they can stay on good terms with certain teams and companies that I am angered by Bobby Cox game decisions. Bobby Cox is what is is, but I think he probably does what he thinks is right even if I happen to disagree or think he’s wrong. At least he has some integrity!
Coach ( 2010 or Bust)
June 23rd, 2009
2:49 pm
Bradley, you must be a Democrat
66 and 66, know what it is?
The complete overall post season record of none other than Bobby Cox. The man has lost more post season games than any other manager in ML history.
Cox is 6 and 5 in the first round of the playoffs.
Cox is 5 and 5 in the League Championship series (he lost one with Toronto).
And last but not least, our venerable Hall of Fame manager is 1 for 4 in the World Series.
That by definition is O-V-E-R-R-A-T-E-D.
Sure, Cox is a great manager, in the regular season. I love the guy and think the world of him. But Bobby is what he is…..a winner and a one trick pony.
TennesseePaul
June 23rd, 2009
2:58 pm
[1-14 last game record] “I would consider this to be this most important of statistics in that Bobby ”
I would disagree. I think it is one of the most assine stats on the planet to judge a good manager. Almost every time this ridiculous stat is brought up the person hoisting it to the top of foolish reasons to fire a manager turns around and says Leyland is a better manager despite being bested by Cox in the post season.
Aside from that, 1-14 also includes games like, oh let’s see… Joey Devine and the great NLDS. But it wasn’t all Joey’s fault. Kyle Farnswoth, the Braves best reliever down the stretch, blew that with his grandslam pitch to Berkman and then his fat homer to Ausmus.
Cox calls on the guys that have done well, and those guys for the most part have failed. But to a “1-14″ type stat, this is irrelavent. Cox should have choose some one else, or done the work himself. If the final charge was left in the hands of Chipper Jones, or even Hank Aaron and Bobby was managing, a loss made final by Jones or Aaron would be ruled Bobby’s fault by these armchair managers.
I have yet to read or hear a valid reason as to why Bobby Cox is not a good manager. I blame the players. It’s the Jeff Francoeur singles-hitters and Kelly Johnson out machines and brick gloves that prevent a team from winning. The Todd Pratt, Corky Miller, and all the rest of the crap that has sat on the bench the last few years.
TennesseePaul
June 23rd, 2009
3:02 pm
Bradley: “My position on Bobby Cox: He’s the greatest manager I’ve ever seen, but I’m not sure he’s the right manager for the 2009 Braves. There just seems to be something … missing.”
I think he’s the right manager for the Braves in 2009. I jus think the team is wrong. I fear the idea of firing Bobby to “spark” the club. His replacement will be Terry Pendelton and that just doesn’t sound good.
ABravesFan
June 23rd, 2009
3:08 pm
Bobby is not the best tactician but a very good manager of people. Nevertheless, he has earned the right to lead the Braves for as long as he wants. I wouldn’t be too disappointed when he does decide to hang it up but the next guy is likely not nearly as good as Bobby.
ABravesFan
June 23rd, 2009
3:09 pm
On the other hand, TP as the manager would mean that someone else is the new hitting coach…that would likely be an improvement.
Poorjeff
June 23rd, 2009
3:10 pm
Tenn-Paul, Just where did infro come from that TP will be next Mgr. Thats just BS, did John, Frank are Bobby say that. Hell no.
Skeezix
June 23rd, 2009
3:15 pm
Put me in the 40%. Are you kidding? I remember the misery of the 70’s and 80’s. He won 14 straight division titles. Has any other pro sports manager done that? If he played chess he’d be a master. A future hall of famer. Just ask Maddux what he thinks. I bet he’s in the 40%. My only complaint over the years – he sometimes hangs with his starting pitchers too long. The problem we’ve had lately has been the result of cheap ownership and poor trade decisons; not Bobby Cox. He can only do the best he can with the resources he is given. For those of you with short term memory issues, last year, he lost most of his starting rotation to injuries-hard for any coach to win in that predicament. Should he have gotten thrown out in that last game against Boston? You’re damn right-that ump was ripping us off. Is it time for him to retire? Maybe, but let’s let him decide when and let him retire in dignity.
varodrunner
June 23rd, 2009
3:23 pm
strong> Coach ( 2010 or Bust)
I have to call you out o this one
The fact that his team was involved in 132 post season games strong>speaks for itself How many managers have a record like that. Apparently you have the time to look that up. 5 game series and 7 game series are a real toss up.
I read a lot of your posts and agree and disagree, but this one really demonstrates your tiring ability to take a stat and SPIN it in your direction.
All I can say to you is 14 years in a row and 132 (based on your stats) post season games speaks volumes to a man’s greatness as a manager.
Go stick your head in the sand, you’d be better off and probably a hole lot happier. Grumpy!.
timthebrave
June 23rd, 2009
3:24 pm
The problem has not been with bobby cox managing this year. He probably cost us 2 wins and pulled out 2 wins with his managing style. The problem is with the hitting. I think that Braves hitters go to other hitting coaches or their parents speaks a lot. I really like Pendleton but he is not getting through to these young hitters. Go Braves!
Adam
June 23rd, 2009
3:24 pm
We are not going to score GOBS of runs this season. This team DESPERATELY needs to work on getting runs in with less than two outs.
THAT DOES REFLECT ON A COACHING PHILOSOPHY.
Get them on, get them over and get them in. One at a time if necessary but without power that is what you MUST do to win.
5-9 in the lineup who drives the ball? Who?
We lose games because of this and until this coaching staff stops trying to make these bottom of the lineup hitters into sluggers we will continue to drop series after series.
Go series by series the last six weeks and see how many games we could have won if players had just made the right kind of out. The pitching has been great for the most part.
An aware coaching staff would have the Braves in first place RIGHT NOW. They would have won most of those series. By aware I mean KNOW YOUR TEAM and KNOW THEIR LIMITATIONS.
Last night, they got the job done. We’ll see from here on.
Sonny Cluster
June 23rd, 2009
3:24 pm
Who did Aristotle and that Pytagora play for.
timthebrave
June 23rd, 2009
3:25 pm
poorjeff….why would they talk about who the next manager is when they haven’t gotten rid of this one. That just doesn’t make sense
varodrunner
June 23rd, 2009
3:30 pm
Tennessee Paul
Who would have on your team?
Glavine is gone
Maddux is gone
Smoltz is gone
Avery is gone
Wohlers is gone
Justice is gone
etc.
So who woould you have?
Let me see…… Aroid, jetter, tex, chipper, Handley, ummmmm, who else.
Cox has a decent team, he has not brought out the best in them and that is the manager and his coaching staff’s job. As Mark mentioned, or I paraphrase in my own words, Bobby’s 2009 style of managing is not working. His decline started when he lost his cy youngs. He managed well in the 90’s, but this is almost 2010.
timthebrave
June 23rd, 2009
3:32 pm
adam, i agree with what you are saying in that the braves have not done enough of the little things to get runs in but I don’t think it is bobby cox’s fault. When they get runners on third with less than 2 outs, everyone knows what they should be doing but they are hitting into double plays or striking out. To me that speaks to the players not being consistent enough and making quality outs. Trust me, these players have played their entire lives, they know what they should be doing. Just need to execute in my opinion
FOXY
June 23rd, 2009
3:36 pm
I think Bobby is a great 162 game manager, however not the best at a seven game series.
Adam
June 23rd, 2009
3:38 pm
Give these guys the bunt sign tim. MAKE THEM GIVE THE AT BAT UP.
If they get pissed and want to leave as free agents, let them go!
An extra 1-2 runs a game puts us well over .500.
If Francouer knew what to do he wouldn’t consistently ground into inning-killing DPs.
If Johnson knew what to do he wouldn’t swing at 1st pitches and roll over.
We all criticize Yunel for this and that but did you see that drag bunt over the weekend. One of the best drags I’ve seen in many years. THAT IS WINNING BASEBALL.
Mix it up. This team, with this inconsistency, needs more of that. If we average 4 runs a game the rest of the season, we will be in the race.
Problem is, we score most of our runs with 2 outs — which means NO big innings.
Poorjeff
June 23rd, 2009
3:39 pm
That was my point, Tim. Where did the rumor come from that TP was next in line. Just don’t believe it. I agree with Mark that next mgr. should be” Brad Mills,” John Farrell are Jose Oquendo. Someone out of Braves system, new Blood.
Alexander the Great
June 23rd, 2009
3:41 pm
Aristole played for Brooklyn and Pythagoras played for the Boston Braves.
The Dude
June 23rd, 2009
3:41 pm
Larry,
I’ve got a bachelor’s degree in engineering. Try again.
Poorjeff
June 23rd, 2009
3:42 pm
Someone from another system, not Braves.
WK
June 23rd, 2009
3:58 pm
I think it is wrong to blame Bobby for all the Braves troubles. and he certainly should not be criticized for every bad decision he has made in the past. However, I do think he is part of the problem with the current team. Let’s just say that his style has allowed this team to become too comfortable. But I do not support firing Bobby under any circumstances at this time. I think he deserves a chance to retire at the end of the season. He is owed that much. The coaching staff is another matter. I think a major shake-up of the coaching staff, starting with the hitting coach, would be a good move to try and change the team attitude.
Ken
June 23rd, 2009
3:59 pm
Bobby won a World Series against a team that had a .694 winning %, that batted .291, hit 207 HRs in only 144 games, and had a team ERA of 3.84 in a league that uses the DH. The team he won with batted .250 and had an ERA of 3.54 in the NL regular season, and yet in the WS outscored, outhit, and outpitched one of the best teams in recent history.
Nobody can ever accuse Bobby Cox of not being able to get the best from his team. He can manage us till he keels, for all I care.
Hillbilly Deluxe
June 23rd, 2009
4:02 pm
Until 1969 there were a maximum of 7 post season games a year. To compare win totals of John McGraw, Casey Stengall, etc. to win totals of Bobby Cox or any modern manager is comparing apples to oranges.
Larry
June 23rd, 2009
4:13 pm
The Dude,
Yeah, sure, and I’m a dancer at the Chetah at night but during the day I’m enrolled at Georgia Tech pursuing my degree in Algorithms, Combinatorics, & Optimization.
Want to see how flexible I am?
The Dude
June 23rd, 2009
4:35 pm
Larry,
It was Polymer and Fiber Engineering for the first 3/4 of my credit hours, then Apparel/Textile Eng. for the last 1/4. I steered clear of the nerdatorium just west of Russ Chandler when at all possible. And it’s Cheetah, but surely you already knew that.
sidslid
June 23rd, 2009
4:45 pm
No Bobby Cox superfan here, but the 1-14 last game in post-season means nothing. All else being equal, there would only be a 1 in 8 chance of winning it all.
I beat Cox, Maddux and Glavine up together. After the Leyritz home run these three were post-season disasters for the rest of the run, with particular scorn in 97. Is not Glavine the losingest post-season pitcher in history. Maddux lost the last game to that awful Philly team in 93 and after losing only twice during regular season, coughed up a big loss in game 5 in 95
eagleeye
June 23rd, 2009
4:46 pm
Well said, 7
Mike in VA
June 23rd, 2009
4:52 pm
As best I remember, Cox went with a three pitcher rotation in the playoffs, which usually killed us at the end of the series when pitching on short rest.
GTSteve
June 23rd, 2009
5:01 pm
Bobby was the right man in 1991, and the wrong man in 2009…time to move on
john law
June 23rd, 2009
5:37 pm
What are the statitics of wins vs loss when Cox puts his closer in the game when the score is tied vs when the Braves are in the lead? Game after game the “closer” does his job, is removed from the game, and the Braves lose while the opposition feeds off the next reliever. Am I the only one out here who wonders about this?
Mark Bradley
June 23rd, 2009
5:40 pm
Sometimes Cox went with a three-man rotation, but more often with a four-man. Neagle started the infamous Game 4 against New York in 1996 and couldn’t hold half of a six-run lead. Avery won the key Game 4 against Cleveland in 1995. Neagle threw a shutout against the Marlins in Game 4 of the NLCS in 1997, one day before Maddux lost in the Eric Gregg game. The rotation for the 1999 World Series — over in four — was Maddux, Millwood, Glavine and Smoltz.
Fred
June 23rd, 2009
5:49 pm
Good debate. Both sides have valid points.
For what it’s worth, the ‘91 Game 6 Puckett homer is a moot point if Lonnie Smith doesn’t get deeked in the 8th inning of Game 7 by Gagne and Knoblach on Pendleton’s double.
And they probably win Game 4 of the ‘96 series if Wohlers doesn’t throw a 2–2 slider to Leyritz. That still kills me. Why did he go to the slider? I highly doubt Bobby told him to go away from the heat.
Dawg A
June 23rd, 2009
6:12 pm
If I don’t produce in my job now then I am history! My boss don’t say that I did a good job four or five years ago and a “decent” job now! in the real world …. you produce or you are gone. Why is this so hard to understand and so defended by the “experts” ?
Adam
June 23rd, 2009
6:16 pm
Fred it was his “forkball” — the same forkball Raul Mondesi hit a 450-foot shot off of him earlier in the season. Should have learned from that. Pitch to Leyritz was the worst called pitch in 43 years of following this team because they did not learn from the Mondesi HR.
GamecockBrave
June 23rd, 2009
6:17 pm
Am I the only one who thinks its absurd that the four letter network is going to break in and out of the CWS to see Manny hit against minor leaguers? Taking breaks between SportsCenter to see him stand around the cage is insanely idiotic. ESPN seems to be trying to get into the reality tv market i suppose…
J Humphries
June 23rd, 2009
6:32 pm
Why don’t you go somewhere else and write you stupid and ugly columns.
And take your smart asses with you.
Mitchell
June 23rd, 2009
6:34 pm
I don’t get why people are so pent up these days about the Braves. Face it, we’re not as good as we used to be… there’s an understatement. The ‘98-’99 Braves would destroy the Braves of the late first decade of the century. How we’re even as good as we are now compared to then is rather astonishing.
But we are getting better, you have to admit. Slowly, to be sure.
It’s not like it’s even remotely reasonable to expect this team to be World Series bound which is not to say that playing like anything less than a team that wants to make it to the playoffs is acceptable. They are who they are. As much as I might often like to have a more animated or vocal leader of this team who calls out his players or the fans I don’t think we’d be better off in any way with somebody else.
I also am not one to blame Bobby Cox for any of the usual criticisms he receives for the losses in the World Series. Let’s face it (yet again), we were about 90 feet (Lonnie Smith) and a few outs (Reardon, Liebrandt, Wohlers, Remlinger… so on and so forth) away from winning at least two or three world championships. With a couple added clutch hits which was often also lacking we easily could have won four. I just can’t blame it on Bobby. Joe Torre made all sorts of moves that should have backfired but he always got away with it. Our problem is that we were never fortunate to have a definitive curse, or more likely that we had too many.
The thing that still pisses me off though… other than the fact that of all the walk-off homeruns and base hits we gave up in the playoffs over the year we only had one (homerun, that is)… is that the Cubs haven’t won a damn thing in over a hundred years, the Dodgers lost year after year to the Yankees, the Red Sox suffered crushing losses in a world series in almost every decade of the 20th and yet none of that stops baseball writers or documentary filmmakers from endlessly fawning and rhapsodizing over those teams.
And… in spite of losing two World Seires(es) and two NLCS’s in the ’70s the Reds are still considered the greatest team ever for only winning in back to back years in ‘75 and ‘76.
And… oh I’m not done… people still talk about the ‘85 Bears as being one of the greatest football teams but they couldn’t even get to another Super Bowl?
Say what you want but Bobby Cox and the Braves just don’t get the credit they deserve. The things people seem to remember or not remember or look at objectively is insane.
Mike
June 23rd, 2009
6:43 pm
This just means that 60% of those surveyed don’t know their rear from first base. Anybody remember Leeman Bennett of the Falcons. Hope I spelled it right.The next coach was going to take us to the next level. It took years to recover from that firing. Back to the Braves. Our fans are fickle. Was it coaching that made that pop fly drop in the field between Escobar and Chipper? The list goes on and on. Wake up Atlanta. You have one of the best managers in baseball. Maybe giving him some support instead of whining would help.
Shane (The original)
June 23rd, 2009
7:03 pm
This blog is why Braves fans have the reputation as some of the worst fans in professional sports. Its amazing how ill informed most braves fans are. I personally blame the Georgia education system.
Number of Wins for Bobby Cox 2,005
Number of Wins on this blog 0
Only in a city like Atlanta would a HOF manager be so butchered. Ive seen Cox manage for years and he is a GREAT manager. Any team would be lucky to have him.
Here are the people who in the history of baseball have won more games than Cox.
1 Connie Mack
2 John Mcgraw
3 Tony Larussa
Thats It. If you morons and metal midgets honestly believe that someone could win that much and not know what he is doing then there might be a bed in Millidgeville for you.
Could the Braves have won a couple more WS. Sure. Last I checked Bobby Cox didnt tell Lonnie Smith to stop running. Heck thats one more right there. Last I checked too Cox didnt say ” Hey Wholers how about hanging a slider to Leyritz and lets see what happens !! ” Thats another one there.
And for everyone who says 1 for 14 while that is statistically correct in all honesty the last 3 or 4 the Braves didnt have the horses to go far in the playoffs. The only reason they even got to the playoffs those years is because of Cox.
Atlanta sports fans are for the most part idiots.