Survey says: Bobby Cox has supporters. Who knew?
You dared me to pose the question in poll form. Being daring, I did. I asked last week, “Do the Braves need a new manager?” I was sure I knew what the majority would say, but it was a thinner majority than I expected.
Sixty percent of roughly 2,000 respondents said the Braves do in fact need a new manager. I figured it would be 70-30, maybe even 80-20. And why did I think that?
Because I read the comments on the ol’ blog.
And I’ve grown accustomed to the anti-Cox rants. How he blew all those World Series. How he’s 1-14 in the final game of the postseason. (Not, mind you, in the final game of a postseason series — let’s not give him any credit for winning the NLCS five times or an NLDS six times — or even in elimination games.) How he’s a terrible tactician. How he shouldn’t have brought in Leibrandt to face Puckett. (Even though Leibrandt had faced Puckett in that World Series twice already — and had twice struck him out.)
I’ve been called an idiot for my support of Bobby Cox so often I assumed I was alone in the universe. Turns out I’m not. Turns out 40 percent of our poll’s respondents — admittedly, this is an unscientific survey, but you could vote only once per computer — decided the skipper isn’t so maladroit after all.
And even though what I wrote wasn’t entirely an endorsement of Cox as manager of the 2009 Braves, I was heartened to see that some folks appreciate a body of work. The old baseball man Rocky Bridges once said: “There are three things the average man thinks he can do better than anybody else: Build a fire, run a hotel, and manage a baseball team.”
Apparently 40 percent of our voters either weren’t quite average — or weren’t men.
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224 comments Add your comment
P Rose
June 23rd, 2009
11:49 am
Paint it Black
I see the record and I want it painted black.
No 14 happy years, I want them painted black.
Although the Braves won 14 seasons in a row,
I won’t be happy without 14 more of those.
I see a manager, I want him painted black,
With pennants and a ring both never to come back.
I saw 1995 and quickly looked away.
Like a newborn baby, I just whine all night and day.
I look inside myself and see my heart is black.
I saw a series win, I want it painted black.
Maybe then the Braves will fade away and not come back
You can’t enjoy a winning team when your whole world is black.
Ted Striker
June 23rd, 2009
11:50 am
To 10:26 a.m. — (1) You’ve displayed admirable passion for Braves baseball over the years. You’ve watched more games than me so it’s possible – but not assured – you might maybe possibly know a smidgen more on baseball. But it’s doubtful you know more about the game than say, Bobby Cox.
(2) If you want argue it was widely believed that the earth was spherical in 330 B.C., fine. Aristotle and Pythagoras were just following the crowd, eh?
(3) You don’t like Bobby Cox. You don’t like the facts about 330 B.C. Is it really them — or is it that anything with the initials B.C. gets you riled? How do you feel about Boston College, Betty Crocker, British Columbia, birth control, and bacon cheeseburgers?
DirtyDawg
June 23rd, 2009
11:51 am
Damn bugman…I suggested that you STFU and you filibuster the damn place…and Brian, you said what I was trying to say (that the Braves have given us far more to cheer about than any other franchise in baseball over those 14 years) only with far more eloquence.
BUCK
June 23rd, 2009
11:51 am
Maybe you would like to have Chuck Tanner back? What should be pointed out over and over is the true test for any team or manager is the 162 game season. Post-season baseball, thanks to Bud, is a farce. Since the inception of the wildcard 25% of the teams who participated in the post season did not belong there. In a stretch from 2002 – 2004 the three teams that hoisted the once coveted World Series trophy were not even good enough to win their division. I haven’t forgotten ‘97 either. The 5 game division series format is the joke of all jokes. Anybody can beat anybody during a short series. Example: In 2003 the Detroit Tigers fell just shy of being the worst team in baseball history losing 119 games, yet during the final series of the year took 3 of 4 from 90 game winner Minnesota. So logically Detroit was a far better team, and Alan Trammell was a far better manager than Ron Gardenhire. My point is; modern postseason records have no place in baseball record books and these same records should not be used as a yard-stick to measure managerial competence. My confidence is still with Bobby Cox.
Larry
June 23rd, 2009
11:54 am
“If I had one Bobby Cox postseason move to second-guess and truth to tell…Eddie Perez. He’d read the Game 3 column and wasn’t happy with me. “You don’t think I do a good job catching Maddux?” he asked. I said I thought he did, but down 0-2 I thought the Braves missed Javy’s bat. (Even though Eddie had two hits in Game 3.)
I hated that Eddie was upset because he’s a great guy. And I was tickled when, one year later, Eddie Perez was named MVP of the NLCS against the Mets.”
Wow! Mark admitted to the entire world he almost, kind of, sort of, criticized a a Cox move and a player decision–once in 20 years!
Please excuse me while I go puke!
.
.
.
.
.
.
Okay, I’m back and feeling better! Come on Mark, I’m starting to like the smidgen of courage from you! Can we have some more?
Bravo
June 23rd, 2009
11:55 am
I have a question, Why won’t the braves look at a possibility of trading for Berkman? I’d think a trade of Kelly Johnson, Kotchman and Stephen Marek? There could also be a possibility of adding a lower level prospect to this deal also. That would give the Braves added power at 1st (badly needed), another switch-hitter behind Chipper (badly needed) and a player that could also play left field. This trade would allow the braves to move Prado to an everyday role while waiting for Infante. This would greatly improve our line up.
tylergmcdonald
June 23rd, 2009
11:57 am
Showing support for Cox headline…brilliant. Are his supporters called the tighty whities?
Mac
June 23rd, 2009
12:02 pm
Responding to a hyperactive buffoon’s baiting is courage? Not. Don’t do it Mark. Larry and the like are like the Vick posters – when you respond, they win. Schultz had an unbalanced, hostile stalker yesterday.
P Rose
June 23rd, 2009
12:07 pm
I agree wholeheartedly with P-Man and Buck.
Brian
June 23rd, 2009
12:07 pm
Larry, I guess you can believe that, but it’s quite a subjective leap. The Indians led the AL in starters’ ERA, and their starters only gave up 9 total runs in the 9 ALDS and ALCS games before the World Series. Just for one example, the 2006 WS Champion Cardinals were 12th in the NL in starters’ ERA.
That Cleveland team was absolutely loaded and dominated in every phase of the game. Only six teams in modern baseball history had a higher win percentage.
JMac12203
June 23rd, 2009
12:14 pm
If according to Matt T weird things can happen in a short series, why did they always happen to the Bravos?? It is because Bobby could lead his team in a 162 game season with many games played against INFERIOR teams. However, in the playoffs everyone is reasonably equal. In general it is fairly well known that in a short playoff series pitching and defense usually will prevail. Who had better pitching than Atlanta? And still they won ONLY 1 of 15 final postseason games. And today… Bobby’s time has passed. HE NEEDS TO GO!!!!
NO MORE BOBBY
June 23rd, 2009
12:19 pm
TOP 3 REASONS DUMB BRAVES FANS STILL LIKE BOBBY COX…..
3. He reminds me of my papa.
2. I love when he gets thrown out of games! Its better than wrastlin (wrestling).
3. If Bobby goes so do those $6 Casino Moon tickets and times are tuff right now.
(In a redneck accent.)
P Rose
June 23rd, 2009
12:26 pm
To say a manager is a failure because he wins 60 percent of the time but goes 1-14 in the last series of the season is flawed logic. Let’s take a similar scenario: The NCAA Basketball Tournament. Of the 64 best teams in the country, 63 lose their final series. Does that mean that all 63 coaches are failures and should be fired? Of the 30 Major League Baseball teams, only eight make the playoffs. Seven of those end their season on a series loss. Are all seven teams, and their managers, therefore deemed failures? Only one team can win it all, and to be the one team out of 30 to do so is not that easy, folks. Since 1991, how many World Series have the Dodgers won? How about the Mets? Only the Yankees, Red Sox, Marlins and Blue Jays have won more World Series than the Braves in the last 20 years. Nineteen of the 30 MLB teams have zero world titles since 1991. In baseball, more than in any other team sport, longevity is what matters. Fourteen straight division titles is an astounding achievement, and a World Series title is nothing to be ashamed of. Thanks Bobby – and Go Braves!
Mark Bradley
June 23rd, 2009
12:29 pm
P Rose — more hits than the Hit King Peter Edward Rose, if you ask me.
Hilton Head Island
June 23rd, 2009
12:31 pm
Buck-
Your points on modern-day baseball are well taken. It’s true that anything can happen in the postseason, especially the best-of-five Division Series. But you see, that’s exactly when a manager has to be willing to try new things and make whatever moves he has to to win games. The formula that Cox used for the regular season in the 90’s obviously worked well over the course of six months and 162 games, but the refusal to adjust his philosophy in a short series cost us dearly. The true test for a manager IS NOT the 162 game season, it’s the ability to adjust and be more flexible with decisions in a short series. You don’t have the luxury of being passive in a 5 or even a 7 game series as EVERY move increases in importance a thousand percent! There is no next week in the postseason. It’s do or die. unfortunately, we died too many times.
Larry
June 23rd, 2009
12:36 pm
Mac,
I pity you man!
At least most others here have the ability and willingness to debate, vent, argue, and spar about the solutions and differing opinions. But you, Mac, you’re like the fat little non athletic kid who watches from a distance and because we won’t let you play you scream an insult from a great distance just far enough that we can’t catch you before you lock your door! You just call someone a “meanie” and then flee!
Yes, Mac, you’re a cowardly girly man and I truly pity the likes of you!
Big Al
June 23rd, 2009
12:37 pm
There are a lot of things I was better at when I was younger. Cox has never been nor will he ever be a good tactician.
Anyone could have won all those games in the 90’s with that pitching staff and line-up. Just fill in the card and sit back.
His record in one run games is what gives away his deficiencies.
Tommy Lasorda once said a good manager should be worth one run per game to his ball club. Cox is a negative one run to the Braves.
John OTC
June 23rd, 2009
12:42 pm
For those of you busting up on Cox for running Glav and Mad Dog out there in as #1 and #2 starters in the postseason……Who pitched 8 shutout innings the night we won it all?
John OTC
June 23rd, 2009
12:44 pm
For those of you busting up on Cox saying anyone could have won with that lineup….Who was the GM stocking the farm system prior to ‘91?
Landslide
June 23rd, 2009
12:45 pm
HEY BUCK!
Chuck Tanner won as many World Series as Bobby Cox. So what’s your point? A little more knowledge about the game would help ya, son.
John OTC
June 23rd, 2009
12:47 pm
For those of you busting up on Cox saying that anyone could have won once in 14 years. Go bust your butt, becme a major league manager, win 14 consecutive titles with at least 2 WS wins and when you are inducted into the HOF be sure to mention that you were right about Bobby.
Brian
June 23rd, 2009
12:50 pm
Big Al, the Braves have a winning record in one-run games since 1991.
John OTC
June 23rd, 2009
12:52 pm
For those of you busting up on Cox for playing KJ, GA, JF or anybody….Tell me who on the Atlanta bench is better?
P Rose
June 23rd, 2009
12:52 pm
Winning it all in the postseason is not a 50-50 proposition. There are eight teams in the playoffs (the best eight teams in the majors), so the odds of winning it all – once you get there – are only 12.5 percent. But first you have to get there. Only eight of the 30 teams in the majors even make it to the postseason at all, so the odds of making it are only 26.7 percent. Clearly, the fact that Bobby Cox’s Braves beat the odds by making the postseason 14 straight years is a phenomenon that will be of more historical significance than the “failure” of having won only one World Series title.
John OTC
June 23rd, 2009
12:55 pm
I can’t even guess “heads” or “Tails” right 14 times in a row. The man won with every team he was given for 14 years. Yes, we’ve had some HOF’ers here but he’s managed around injuries, Albie Lopez, John Rocker, Jason Marquis, Bruce Chen and a ton of other flops too.
Larry
June 23rd, 2009
12:58 pm
John,
It’s pretty easy to “stock the farm system” when you’re picking 1st, 2nd or 3rd every year from about 1985 though 1990. That’s how the Braves ended up with Glavine, Justice, Chipper, Gant, Avery, Lemke, Blauser and a few others.
But, who was the GM that in 1991 brought in Pena, Pendleton, Otis Nixon, Rafael Belliard, Charlie Leibrandt and Sid Bream to propell this team to their first division title? Mr. Schuerholz! The list including Maddux, McGriff, Devereaux, Wholers, Grissom, Berryhill, Lopez, Klesko, Polonia, Charlie O’Brian,to help win the 1995 World Series was also because of one Mr. Schuerholz!
Landslide
June 23rd, 2009
1:00 pm
It’s all about whether as a fan you want to salute Bobby Cox for the rest of his days or to win baseball games.
If you believe that Bobby Cox was responsible for that run of 14 straight, is he not responsible for the collapse of the team since?
Then there are those here who say that it’s all on the hitting, pitching and defense. That Bobby doesn’t hit, pitch or play defense so he shouldn’t be held accountable.
Geez folks, if all the manager does is fill out the lineup card and sit in the dugout and pick his nose during the game, give me a Playboy Playmate or someone like that to look at during the game in the role of manager!
Selective memory is a great thing. On this blog, selective memory turns down right schizophrenic! He won it for the Braves? He isn’t responsible of losing it for the Braves?
Which is it? Can’t be both ways!
I have to agree with ESPN radio guy Colin Cowherd. Basically he says if you drink the Kool-Aid that team management puts out there for you without question, then you deserve what you get.
The Dude
June 23rd, 2009
1:05 pm
Larry, you’re not a leader buddy, you’re a blow-hard. There’s a big difference. Also, give it a rest, Mark is owning you all over this blog.
BugKiller
June 23rd, 2009
1:06 pm
John OTC
You inability to comprehend logic is laughable.
BOBBY COX HAD LITTLE TO NOTHING TO DO WITH WINNING 14 STRAIGHT DIVISIONS.
TALENT DID.
BOBBY COX HAD ALMOST EVERYTHING TO DO WITH LOSING IN ALL OF THOSE OCTOBERS.
MANAGERS MATTER IN THE POSTSEASON.
THEY DO NOT MATTER IN THE REGULAR SEASON. IT IS TOO LONG.
THIS IS NOT FOOTBALL.
There.
I shouted. I spoke in the simplest terms I could for you.
The next step is for me to really break it down Barney Style for you.
Are you really such an idiot as that, John OTC?
Your arguments are purile and lack an ounce of logic.
“You do it.”
Yeah. Real intelligent argument.
John OTC
June 23rd, 2009
1:12 pm
Larry,
I agree that Schuerholz did a great job. But so did Cox. Also, having the first pick in the draft (twice sine 1965) doesn’t guarentee sucess. If it did, we would all be big fans of Matt Bush (2004), Bryan Bullington (2002) and Matt Anderson (1997) in addition to Josh Hamilton, Joe Mauer and David Price.
Larry
June 23rd, 2009
1:15 pm
The Dude,
Man, to state that Mark “owns” me I don’t think even Mark would assert. Honestly, Dude, you are the classic definition of “country dumb.”
Now go spit on your grits!
John OTC
June 23rd, 2009
1:21 pm
Wow, I got to BugKiller? Is that an accomplishment? Buggy, I started out by asking some questions. Not making arguements.
Your argument is that managers don’t matter in the regular season and you think I’m purile (spelled correctly it would be puerile)? I think if you could convince the 30 MLB teams to fire their managers and use smart bloggers in the post season, you could make a few bucks off the money you would save them. Hey, you could use that stack of money from the insurance commercials….
Lefty
June 23rd, 2009
1:23 pm
So, if Bobby were a better manager, Lonnie Smith doesn’t fall for a decoy and Mark Wohlers doesn’t hang a slider. Those two plays are basically all that separate Bobby from being 3-2 in World Series competition. Oh, and let’s not forget Eric Gregg giving the Marlins the pivotal Game 5 of the ‘97 NLCS.
Now the game has apparently passed him by. But didn’t he just win the Sporting News Manager of the Year in 2005 by winning 90 games with a bunch of rookies? Oh yeah, he also won the award in 2004, 2003, 2002, 1999, 1993, 1991, & 1985. He also won the Baseball Writers Manager of the Year Award in 1985, 1991, 2004, & 2005. Of course, the geniuses on this blog know EVERYTHING about being the manager of a baseball team since they’ve mastered the idea behind the “double switch”. Sit back, relax, and accept the fact that playing rotisserie baseball or Strat-O-Matic only qualifies you to be a geek. The idiots that think Bobby is a liability probably think that Joe Torre or Tony LaRussa would be better options because they’ve won multiple World Series titles. Hey, Atlanta ran Joe Torre out of here, too, and it took LaRussa 30 years to get WS number 2, despite having the dominant team in the league for 5+ years with the A’s.
The problem isn’t the manager or the hitting coach. Nobody could win with the players Atlanta has had the past few years. If you put lipstick on a pig….
zincc
June 23rd, 2009
1:31 pm
Hey, NO MORE BOBBY, you are wrong about those of us that like Bobby Cox and want him to stay until he’s ready to retire. He doesn’t remind me of my papa, I don’t like it when he gets tossed but I do appreciate his defense of his players, and I don’t even have a clue about those $6 Casino Moon tickets you were talking about (oh, and I don’t like wraslin!!!). I do, however, have the memories of those long ago games when the Braves were a joke to the rest of baseball (and, yes, I did watch them and root for them even then). Cox has been a great manager and has proven his knowledge of baseball and his players (although I will admit there have been times when I would like for him to move a little more quickly when removing a pitcher that is struggling). At any rate, don’t criticize those of us who continue to support Cox for his efforts. That long dry spell “back in the day” that Cox helped to turn around is enough of a reason to sing his praises, and I will continue to sing them until he makes his own decision to leave/retire. And, when that happens, I’ll be sorry to see him go.
BugKiller
June 23rd, 2009
1:31 pm
Lefty,
For you to even insinuate that Joe Torre isn’t a better manager than Bobby Cox is ridiculous.
The 1996 Yankees were in NO WAY more talented than the 1996 Braves.
Which manager won that Series, Lefty?
Adam
June 23rd, 2009
1:35 pm
Cox is going to the Hall — no doubt. Whether we like it or not he has earned control over his own destiny.
But when you have an offense like the 1966 Dodgers and you get lockdown pitching performances, you HAVE to play more small ball. Three-run homers are not coming.
swhite
June 23rd, 2009
1:38 pm
There’s a great cartoon, I believe from Charles Addams, that is most appropriate here. It’s of a football game, stands packed, players ramming each other on the field. The coach on the sidelines is turned toward the stands, his finger pointing at one particular guy. “You,” he says, “with all the advice. You go in for Kowalski!” While it’s so easy to criticize and belly-ache about the poor managing job Cox has done at times, I wonder how many excellent decisions he has made that none of us remembers or brings up? How many games that should have been lost were won because he made the right decision, brought in the right pinch hitter, brought in the right reliever, stayed with a guy one more time to bolster his confidence, etc. etc.? How many bone-headed decisions has Tony LaRussa made? How many times has he gone with someone too long or played the percentages and got burned? I remember quite clearly when Joe Torre won that division title with the Braves, with Jerry Royster doing a fantastic job for the injured Bob Horner. Horner got well right at the end and Torre put him in to play 3rd base in the playoffs, instead of the hot Royster. Dumb move? Absolutely! Take a look at Torre’s record before he moved to the $200 million, sky’s the limit Yankees. Not too good, very mediocre. Don’t forget, also, that Torre lost to the Wild Card Team three years in a row, once when he was ahead 3 games to none! I guess he doesn’t know how to manage in a short series either. I imagine Cox will retire soon, and you guys will be happy, until the next guy doesn’t do as well as Cox.
varodrunner
June 23rd, 2009
1:41 pm
BugKiller
Sorry dude, but yours is the ingnorant comment here. To say “managers do not matter during the regular season is just wrong. Sure Bobby Cox had great pitching during that run, but he had head cases as witnessed by a young Andrew Jones loafing in the outfield and being pulled out of the field with only one oout in the inning. That’s managing!. Joe CArter’s homerun, kept us from our first WS title, we got beat. As Mark poinnts out, Leibrant had stuck out Pucket twice before in the series, so Bobby made a wise decision that didn’t work out. Pucket was a great hitter. Let’s say Bobby doesn’t bring in Leibrant to pitch to Pucket and Pucket hits the same homerun, people like you would be arguing, he should have broought in Leibrant. Ignorance is ignorance and yours in on display with your comments. Love to all.
Now Mark, I’m unclear on your position on the topic of – Is it time for Bobby to go? Your previous column left me with the impression that you feel for the Braves to win, they need a new managing style with apparently Bobby cannot deliver. Am i correct? No one can argue with Bobby’s sucess, but he seems to has lost his way with the new generation of Braves. He is no longer motivating the team as evidenced by their lacklucter play. The display in the last game with Boston was refreshing. And to see Chipper and O’Flattery (sp) get outwardly pissed is the type of fire we need from this team. Not that we can afford them being thrown out of games often, but it was FIRE.
And then last night with McCann going all out to catch that foul pop up, that too was refreshing. This team needs fire and if some of the guys will follow suit, they might have a chance. Even Franceour took a couple of swings that were clearly not meant to be homeruns and wow, the result was his best night in a long time.
but back to the original question – where do you stand on the Braves needing a new style of managing?
I do not think Bobby can adjust his current managing style, so I guess the real question is – Do you think the Braves can consistently win under Bobby?
Adam
June 23rd, 2009
1:41 pm
If I’m Cox I get Don Sutton to explain to me how those ‘66 Dodgers won games and went to the Series. The Braves’ clubhouse should have a goal of getting to 4 runs each game, even if it means sacrificing, stealing bases, making productive outs. That’s when the team could get back into the black.
jed
June 23rd, 2009
1:41 pm
i think i’d hate it if cox got fired, really, but at the same time, i think he’s as much to blame for this team’s under-achievement as anybody. running JF & KJ out there every day to sap the offense while keeping Infante on the bench? that’s inexcusable. on top of that, he mismanages the bullpen on a nearly nightly basis. being a field strategist has never been cox’s talent. his skill is managing personalities over the course of a long season. when he had the horses, he didnt drop the ball. but the loyalty & patience he showed to those teams just doesnt work with these teams of late. i dont want him fired but he should probably leave after this year, and somebody needs to talk to him about KJ & JF immediately
John OTC
June 23rd, 2009
1:42 pm
Buggy. My point wasn’t simply “you do it.” I told you to go do better.
Since you can’t go win 14 straight and since no one else has ever managed a team to 14 (really 15 if you think about the Jays) titles I’m going to say that Bobby has done a great job. Maybe these particular Braves aren’t winning and maybe they’d be magic for another manager. I just believe that if a team can’t win for Bobby then the team can’t win for anyone.
zincc
June 23rd, 2009
1:45 pm
John OTC, I like your comments. I agree with you 100%.
timthebrave
June 23rd, 2009
1:45 pm
The manager has very little to do with winning world series. Pitching and timely hitting win titles.
timthebrave
June 23rd, 2009
1:48 pm
Who would you suggest be our manager if you don’t like Bobby? I bet money that if you ran bobby cox out of town that pendleton would be our manager…Then you would really be screaming bloody murder. Go Braves!
varodrunner
June 23rd, 2009
1:49 pm
Lefty – OMG – You didn’t bring Eric Gregg into this did you?
I hated that man after that appalling sight. Clearly the Braves were not going to win that game. Eric Gregg made sure of that.
your post is absolutely – Right On! The Braves could easily be 3 – 2 in the WS or better and Bobby had very little to do with the losses. CArter hits a homerun! Pucket hits a homerun – and in the same game, lonnie runs liek a little leaguer.
Nice post IMHO
John OTC
June 23rd, 2009
1:50 pm
Honestly people. If you’re suggesting Cox should play Infante then you should catch up.
Omar Infante #4 Second Base/Shortstop: Injury Note 15-day DL as of May 21, 2009 (Fractured left hand)
Infante = Fractured left hand
You’re joking right? Sit a player so you can play a guy with a broken left hand? If Cox did that then it woulf really be time for him to go.
John OTC
June 23rd, 2009
1:53 pm
zincc. Thanks, you too. I think Lefty has made some great points.
Mark Bradley
June 23rd, 2009
1:54 pm
My position on Bobby Cox: He’s the greatest manager I’ve ever seen, but I’m not sure he’s the right manager for the 2009 Braves. There just seems to be something … missing.
But they’re only four games out of first place, so what the heck do I know?
varodrunner
June 23rd, 2009
1:54 pm
Man o man
I want some of that stuff P Rose is on.
I could stand som dilussion right now.
varodrunner
June 23rd, 2009
1:56 pm
Mark
Thanks for the response – I couldn’t agree more. He had wonderful years and has been one of the most successful managers in the history of MLB. But, I too, think his time has passed.