Survey says: Bobby Cox has supporters. Who knew?
You dared me to pose the question in poll form. Being daring, I did. I asked last week, “Do the Braves need a new manager?” I was sure I knew what the majority would say, but it was a thinner majority than I expected.
Sixty percent of roughly 2,000 respondents said the Braves do in fact need a new manager. I figured it would be 70-30, maybe even 80-20. And why did I think that?
Because I read the comments on the ol’ blog.
And I’ve grown accustomed to the anti-Cox rants. How he blew all those World Series. How he’s 1-14 in the final game of the postseason. (Not, mind you, in the final game of a postseason series — let’s not give him any credit for winning the NLCS five times or an NLDS six times — or even in elimination games.) How he’s a terrible tactician. How he shouldn’t have brought in Leibrandt to face Puckett. (Even though Leibrandt had faced Puckett in that World Series twice already — and had twice struck him out.)
I’ve been called an idiot for my support of Bobby Cox so often I assumed I was alone in the universe. Turns out I’m not. Turns out 40 percent of our poll’s respondents — admittedly, this is an unscientific survey, but you could vote only once per computer — decided the skipper isn’t so maladroit after all.
And even though what I wrote wasn’t entirely an endorsement of Cox as manager of the 2009 Braves, I was heartened to see that some folks appreciate a body of work. The old baseball man Rocky Bridges once said: “There are three things the average man thinks he can do better than anybody else: Build a fire, run a hotel, and manage a baseball team.”
Apparently 40 percent of our voters either weren’t quite average — or weren’t men.
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224 comments Add your comment
abudefdef
June 23rd, 2009
10:15 am
NEON DEON!!!!
Question is, would he leave his comfortable ananlyst/reporter gig in Football to take over coaching…does he even want to?
At least one inquiring mind wants to know…
NEON DEON!!!
P-Man
June 23rd, 2009
10:16 am
Larry,
You misunderstand me. I am just as intense as the next guy while the game is going on. When it is over, it’s over (and yes, I may rehash it in my mind and with my friends for a day or 2). My point is that I do not brand people failures because they don’t “win it all”. Ernie Banks was not a failure, Ted Williams was not a failure, etc, etc, etc. The Bills of the early 90s were the most dominant team in the NFL, but lost the Super Bowl, what was it, 4 straight times? Still a GREAT team. Disappointing, but still great. Why can’t we enjoy the success without obsessing over “winning it all”? Only one team (or individual) can “win it all”.
One of the things I liked about College Football (before the BCS) was that half of the bowl teams (the winners) went home happy. A whole bunch of other teams were happy to win the rivalry gane and end the season with a win. Now, however, if you don’t make (and win) the BCS championship game, you’re a failure. Witness how Bob Stoops and Jim Tressel are ridiculed for not “winning it all” the last few years, or how Mark Richt and his assistants are villified in blogs for not making it to the championship game. Are these guys failures? Should they all be fired?
Braves73
June 23rd, 2009
10:16 am
Bug Killer, Space Monkey, & Larry – Dead on with every point made. Bobby has too much player loyalty and can’t make the tough decisions in post season play. I can remember Bobby beating T.P. into the ground (in his 2nd Braves stint) when he had nothing left. I remember Tony Grafininno & Danny Bautiste starting in key playoff games in 97-98. I could go on for days…
Slap Hitter
June 23rd, 2009
10:17 am
Also it takes no courage to sit on a blog and comment on how you think someone should lose his job. Maybe we should start a new blog that is calling for you to get fired (if you are employed).
buckhead bob
June 23rd, 2009
10:18 am
It’s amazing to me how many people responding about Bobby Cox say he is too laid back – too close to his players – too this – too that! I am sure none of the posters have ever played for him – or even been close to a major league dugout – remember Little League doesn’t count. While I have to admit the lack of more Championships is a negative, the Braves have one a lot more ball games than the Hawks or Falcons and more than a lot of other major league baseball teams. Bobby will retire when he is ready and then we will see what direction the team will go. Until then, enjoy!
Slap Hitter
June 23rd, 2009
10:19 am
Exactly Mark, what it looks like to me is we have a lot of Monday morning quaterbacks that think Joe Torre or Larussa would have made a different decision. There was no better choice available to pitch in either situation than Leibrandt.
Ted Striker
June 23rd, 2009
10:21 am
Larry — As I said to you yesterday: “I’m sorry. I don’t have time to play with you.”
alsim
June 23rd, 2009
10:22 am
The real issue you need to look at is NOT who Bobby Cox was as a manager in the 1990s. It is who is Bobby Cox, the manager, in 2009 and beyond.
God bless him for his integrity and years of service to the team, but he just doesn’t have it anymore.
You may recall he almost retired a few seasons ago. I don’t question his heart, but how much heart and energy does he still have left in the tank?
.
Mac
June 23rd, 2009
10:24 am
Larry, man you are hyperactive and annoying. I flick a booger in your general direction, before retiring to get work done.
Jfreak
June 23rd, 2009
10:24 am
Cox has been great for the Braves! He helped turn this team into what was the envy of the sports world for many years. However, that is era has come and gone. Nothing last forever and that includes Cox. I can’t see the Braves firing him and don’t believe he deserves to be fired. Cox has earned the right to decide his furture. However, I feel like Cox’s effectiveness is absent with this young team. He can’t hit for them and they wont listen so we are left to decide do we fire half the team or does one man step aside for the good of the team? Not an easy question to answer.
They are playing a little better overall right now and they are a respectable team. If they hit and learn (or allowed) to play small ball a little more they can compete?? IF?
Justafan
June 23rd, 2009
10:26 am
Ted Striker, speak for yourself son. I was at the Park in 70, 80, 90. where were you. I was there till 3 am in morning for longest extra inning game. I was there when Ted called John Mullen to come to his office to fire Torre,after one person had got in Ted’s ear in his box seat . I was there when Ted fell on field drunk. I was there for Hank’s great homer. I was there with Pearl… 7 years without missing a game..Where was you Stricker, Oh without a ticket?
How the hell do you know what nearly 100% would have said in 330BC? Was you there? Alot of ML mgrs are not to smart just lucky. Have a great day.
How in hell do you know
Braves73
June 23rd, 2009
10:27 am
Mark, you stated earlier on “who would you bring in the 11th inning of game 6, 91 world series”. Well, I have two names (who were RELIEF PITCHERS) that should have been brought in….Kent Mercker, Juan Berenguer.
TNJeff
June 23rd, 2009
10:27 am
I always find it humorous when someone clouts their opinion and supports it as agreed upon by public opinion only to be followed by the disclaimer “unscientific poll.”
So basically we still may not have an accurate assessment … Still I fell I’m getting a better, more accurate assessment of your (Bradley’s) opinions in general. Finding less and less to read in the AJC
BugKiller
June 23rd, 2009
10:28 am
Slap Hitter…
… the point is, you give Lou Pinella some of the greatest teams in the history of baseball and 14 STRAIGHT YEARS OF POSTSEASON PLAY…
… and he wins more than ONE World Series.
And sorry, but you proclaim your ignorance to the world when you compare the current Cubs teams to the Braves teams of the 1990s.
Again… you give ANY manager those teams, and they win more than ONE World Series.
You give Joe Girardi from today those 14 teams, and he wins more than ONE World Series.
Are you finally getting it?
If it finally sinking in to your pea brain yet?
Bobby Cox, and ONLY Bobby Cox, could take those 14 teams and only win ONE World Series.
At the very LEAST, the Braves should have won THREE STRAIGHT World Series, 1995-1997.
And been to at least three more than the five they went to: 1993, 1997, and 2001.
What Bobby Cox has done as manager of this team is EMBARRASSING.
Why do you refuse to face facts?
Daniel
June 23rd, 2009
10:28 am
Bug Killer- Hindsight is 20/20. It must be nice to live a world where you get to look at the results then blame the methods after the fact.
It is a really poor way to look at sports and life for that matter. I also want to let you know that no matter how much the Braves win or lose that empty spot in your soul will never be filled that way. You certainly could display more integrity than ripping Bobby Cox and signing your own name.
TNJeff
June 23rd, 2009
10:29 am
Justafan
You were there all those years? Sounds like you need to get a life!
Daniel
June 23rd, 2009
10:30 am
Bug Killer- All of your statements are supposition. You have not stated one “fact”. When do you refuse to face the english language?
Larry
June 23rd, 2009
10:30 am
Ted,
I’m married, my friend, I wife would prefer that you not “play with me” either. Now, go find a single guy to “play with!”
Larry
Ralph The Cat
June 23rd, 2009
10:30 am
It is the nature of writers and fans to take Managers to task when the result we hope for doesn’t happen. So, the criticism of Bobby Cox is not unexpected. But why not take the Ownership to task for limiting what a team can do financially or the players to task for not producing or the players and agents to task for their greed in placing money ahead of team loyalty. We fans don’t jump ship for greater enticements. We’re here every year — loyal, hopeful, cheering. So, when a beat writer loads up on one of baseballs most successful skippers, it is just another of the distractions we fans have to face. Is Cox perfect? No, but he’s one of the best and we are fortunate to have had him all these years.
BugKiller
June 23rd, 2009
10:30 am
Daniel… hahahahahaha.
Oh, I’m sorry… hahahahahahahahahaha.
Okay, thanks for the laugh.
OutlawPete
June 23rd, 2009
10:35 am
Hershel Talker: Larry IS Robert!!!
J-man
June 23rd, 2009
10:38 am
I have to agree with Larry. I’ve been anti-Cox since the ‘99 World Series fiasco. Cox won 1 World Series because the ‘95 one was the only time he ever faced a manager dumber than himself. It’s well beyond time for Cox to retire with dignity and let someone else take over.
O THomason
June 23rd, 2009
10:39 am
When I think back to Sunday’s game and had a chance to win and playing in a Boston. I ask why in the world do you bring in Benett when we as a team needed that game etc.. This makes me question Bobby Cox again? Well just a thought a great hitting team as the Red Sox’s are. I understand our best closers have been worked but I ask why ? This is what Mark seems to understand and I do also, Great Baseball Man, but the times have changed. Retch I agree with you also. Space u get it.
Mark Bradley
June 23rd, 2009
10:40 am
Juan Berenguer wasn’t on the postseason roster in 1991. He was hurt. (That’s why the Braves signed Alejandro Pena.)
Kent Mercker worked 1 2/3 innings in the postseason of 1991 — and gave up the winning run against Pittsburgh in extra innings of Game 4 of the NLCS. So you’re telling me you’d rather have had a young lefthander who hadn’t had postseason success in the 11th inning of Game 6 than a seasoned lefthander who’d won 15 games and who had pitched in postseasons both as a Royal and a Brave?
Justafan
June 23rd, 2009
10:41 am
TN Jeff…I did and have not been to a game in 4 years. Will not go back till BC is gone.
That was my life for awhile, I’ll leave it at that.
DirtyDawg
June 23rd, 2009
10:42 am
Like way too many of folks here, and I include myself in this, we’re long on opinions and criticisms and short on genuine knowledge. The playoffs are a crap-shoot – particularly the first round – where dominating, hard-throwing, pitchers excel (read, John Smoltz). The teams the Braves brought into the post season leading with Glavine and Maddux, were damn good, but both of those guys were just as capable of giving up a ton of hits as not. If you look back at every post season win, and loss, there were plays and calls that went against us that were certainly out of Bobby’s control (and often in the ump’s – Eric Greg, whoever was umping first on that Kent Hrbeck (sp?) thing, veteran Lonnie Smith’s falling for rookie Knoblock’s deke and failing to look to his third-base coach, about a million calls in that million-inning game with Houston, the lame-ass stalling of Houston’s manager Phil Garner claiming the phone to the bull-pen didn’t work while his closer got ready…and many, many more.
I will admit that Bobby seems to have ‘mellowed’ as he has gotten older, and bigger, and knees that still bark at him when he tries to walk fast (and forgetabout running). Given consistent quality play from his team (and no manager wins without that) he wins and will still. The only thing I wish is that he would figure out something else to do with his hands – either that, or make sure they don’t put a camera on him in the dugout.
Go Bobby…hell, we just might win this thing yet.
Larry
June 23rd, 2009
10:44 am
Mark,
To answer your question, only a strikeout pitcher with the game on the line against a good right handed pitcher. Certainly not a slow, deliberate, nibbling lefty. You keep mentioning Leibrandt’s regular season record in 1992 and 1992. My God, man, you DO think like Bobby Cox! Who cares about Leibrandt’s regular season record as a starter when the game is on the line in the 11th inning of game six of the World Series and you have an All Star right handed hitter at the plate? I wouldn’t have brought in Tom Glavine either!
Wow! I’m competing intellectually with an unarmed opponent.
Brian
June 23rd, 2009
10:45 am
Larry, you said “Do you think it a coincidence that the only championship under Cox came against the Cleveland Indians in 1995 who just happened to have perhaps the worst starting pitching in recent world series history?”
Are you serious? The Indians had the best overall ERA in the American League by half a run that year. And their starters’ ERA was also best in the AL.
Hilton Head Island
June 23rd, 2009
10:46 am
The Braves certainly enjoyed an unprecedented 14-year run under the management of Bobby Cox. The fact that he’s won 2000+ games as a major league mananger is proof that he must know a thing or two about the game. What concerns me, however,is that the number of games he’s won is more a testament to his obvious longevity than to his real effectiveness. Given the talent he had to work with for much of that 14-year run, it would have been harder NOT to win.
The problem is that the Bobby worshippers can’t have it both ways. They can’t credit him for number of NLCS and NLDS victories and then turn around and excuse him for coming up short of the big prize in every instance but 1995. In my feeble mind, there is something more than just dumb luck to account for the lack of more World Series wins. We wouldn’t even be talking about the Puckett/Leibrandt matchup in game 6 of the 1991 WS if we didn’t see that as the beginning of a pattern of questionable decisions by Cox. The fact is that he’s stubborn, pure and simple. He sticks to the same playbook year after year and never adjusts his style to fit type of team he has. A team’s dynamic changes year after year and the management should reflect that change.
My biggest problem with Cox, though, is in his inability to see when a player can’t do the job. Case in point: Sunday at the Red Sox. Jeff Bennett is not a major league pitcher and he’s demonstrated this time and time again. Yet Bobby puts Bennet on the mound in the bottom of the 9th…and loses on 1 pitch. Some people say that Bobby is just loyal to his players, and that’s fine. But when loyalty costs the team wins as it has soooo many times in the last 18 years, it becomes one of the biggest reasons we’ve only won the 1 lone World Series.
I don’t think that anyone can argue the fact that the Braves were the best team in baseball for most of the 90’s. So why didn’t we win more World Series? The players play the game according to how their manager manages. So, given the talent of the players in the 90s, one can only conclude that the way in which they were managed left something to be desired. The same can be said for the 2009 Braves. And we have the same manager. Go figure.
Braves73
June 23rd, 2009
10:48 am
Thanks for the correction with Senor Smoke.
Now to Mercker…Yes. There’s a reason why a you have a RELIEF pitcher & a STARTING pitcher. While Charlie Liebrandt was a very good starting pitcher, his normal routine/expertise was not relief pitching. As to Merker’s youth, he had pitched in 50 games & 73 innings (2nd most amungst Braves relievers in 91) while posting a 2.88 era. Again, my answer is YES!!!!!!!!!!!
BugKiller
June 23rd, 2009
10:48 am
STOP SAYING THE PLAYOFFS ARE A CRAPSHOOT AS A DEFENSE OF BOBBY COX!!!!!
This is the SAME frakking excuse Bobby has been using for YEARS to cover for his inept handling of his teams come October and it a complete LIE!!!
You know what a crapshoot is?
Winning 4 World Series in 12 tries.
THAT is a crapshoot.
Joe Torre can use that excuse.
Bobby Cox won ONE World Series in FOURTEEN tries!!!
That is NOT a crapshoot!!!
Stop peddling B.S. lies!!!
Mark Bradley
June 23rd, 2009
10:49 am
I say again: Leibrandt had faced Puckett in Game 1 of the World Series in the very same Metrodome — and had twice struck him out.
And one thing more: When you’re tied in extra innings on the road, you’re not looking for a pitcher to get just one guy out. You know you have to get six more outs to win the game. You can’t just go lefty/righty; otherwise you’ll end up with your shortstop pitching in the 14th.
Larry
June 23rd, 2009
10:56 am
“And one thing more: When you’re tied in extra innings on the road, you’re not looking for a pitcher to get just one guy out. You know you have to get six more outs to win the game. You can’t just go lefty/righty; otherwise you’ll end up with your shortstop pitching in the 14th.”
I just popped a vessel!
Mark, simple question for you, okay? What does it take to get to “the 14th”? Answer, to get the guy out in the 11th! Now I know why you support Bobby Cox!
Whew!
DirtyDawg
June 23rd, 2009
11:01 am
BugKiller – I suppose you’ve picked that name because you, like many others of us here, aren’t fans of GTech..either that or you work for Orkin or something in which case I don’t believe I’da told that – regardless, every time you make statements and call ‘em ‘facts’ it skins your ignorance even thinner than I thought possible.
Were we disappointed in not winning more, you bet. Would any other franchise in baseball – including their fans – and with the possible exception of the Yankees that threw more money at players than God, not have traded places with the Braves during that run of 14 straight to the post season? Name it (I suppose that the long-suffering Cubs and Red Sox wouldn’t have because they’re so proud of that cross they’re were carrying on their backs – and the Cubs still do.).
Remember, when Bobby and John S. got us started on this run in ‘91 the Braves were among the laughing stock, if not ‘the’ one, of baseball, and long-suffering Braves fans hadn’t been able to enjoy baseball in September and October in forever. They gave us that and what did we do, took it for granted and blamed them for not giving it all to us…shame on us for that.
Come on Braves – give us another pennant run…I can pull for Georgia and the Falcons, ‘and the Braves’ all at the same time. In fact, it’s the most fun you can have with your clothes on.
Brian
June 23rd, 2009
11:03 am
It’s interesting to me that many of the Cox detractors point to these individual “moments” when he may or may not have made a bad decision. It’s because these people have a singular focus…their world revolves around whether or not the Braves win the WHOLE STINKIN THING every year. I’m more pleased with the quality of baseball and consistent success over a very extended period of time. I’d take being a Braves fan over being a Marlins fan who has two World Series and 15 other years of terrible baseball. I have never understood why some people get so bent out of shape when a team doesn’t win a championship every year. My ultimate goal would be to be a billionaire, but I’ll take a six figure salary any day of the week.
The man is more games over .500 than any manger in baseball history besides John McGraw and Joe McCarthy. Fourth most wins of all time. Among 10 managers with over 2000 wins, his win percentage is fourth. Two, count em, two losing seasons out of his last 21 full years as a manager. He has as sterling a reputation as you will ever find among players, colleagues, and opponents. He made the Braves into (still) one of the top five or so most respected and admired organizations in baseball. And some people are worried about whether he brought in the wrong guy to pitch to one batter 20 years ago.
Braves73
June 23rd, 2009
11:04 am
Mark, I normally agree with most of your logic but you have left me almost speechless. Mercker could have easily pitched 2 innings, not to mention that Puckett was a career .300 hitter against Charlie.
Roja
June 23rd, 2009
11:05 am
I would take our shortstop pitching over Jeff Bennett in a tie game in the bottom of the ninth inning ANY DAY! At least Yunel has an arm!
DirtyDawg
June 23rd, 2009
11:07 am
PS Bugman…I’ll stop saying ‘The playoffs are a crapshoot’…if you’ll STFU altogether.
Herschel Talker
June 23rd, 2009
11:12 am
MB – I don’t think you should focus on Leibrandt. That was no way even close to his most egregious bonehead moves. If you want a list, I’ll give you one, but that one wouldn’t even be on there. Can we focus on real bonehead moves, please? For starters, how about starting Danny Bautista in game 6 against the Padres in 1998? That’s just one of many.
BugKiller
June 23rd, 2009
11:16 am
It all comes down to this, as illustrated by others:
The Cox Apologists give him all of the credit for winning 14 straight (largely worthless) division titles.
The Cox Apologists give him the credit for winning the one World Series.
The Cox Apologists blame the players for 13 Octobers ending in ignominy.
Notice the hypocritical inconsistency there?
Also, notice the complete lack of logic?
Okay, here it goes:
In regular season AND post season football, coaching is more important than talent than in any other sport.
Why? Because in the regular season, there are only 16 games, and in the post season of ANY sport, managing trumps talent.
i.e. bad coaching can sink a talented team, etc.
In baseball, managing (coaching) is LEAST important during the regular season, and TALENT is most important.
Why?
Because there are 162 games. The horrible tactical abilities of the manager are smoothed out due to the fact that the season is so long, as long as the team wins more series than it loses, which is based largely on the talent assembled for the team, then the team will either win it’s division or win the Wild Card.
In baseball, the most talented teams OVERWHELMINGLY make the playoffs.
In football, the best coached teams OVERWHELMINGLY make the playoffs.
In football, sometimes the most talented team is done-in by terrible coaching (Dallas, anyone?) during the regular season, and so, don’t make the playoffs.
Are you people finally seeing where this is going?
Okay, so in baseball, after the talented team makes it to the post season, NOW and only now, does the manager become truly important.
How they set up their pitching rotation.
How they set up their line up and bench.
How they approach the short series where they MUST manager like there is no tomorrow, how they MUST take some gambles. Where they MUST play their hot bats.
Again… the Braves had the best pitcher in post season history. But Bobby Cox, going off of regular season results and not post season history, largely started Maddux and Glavine over John Smoltz every year but 1996.
Why? Why would you not pitch the best pitcher in post season history over two guys who are .500 post season pitchers at best just because one of those guys won the Cy Young that year?
Again… this is Einstein’s definition of insanity coming in to play.
Okay.
The San Diego Padres PROVED that Ryan Klesko could hit lefties.
Manny Ramirez is TERRIBLE defensive left fielder.
So why in the hell was Bobby Cox willing to sit his best home run threat in a stupid platoon for some light-hitting defensive specialist all of those years?
The Braves in the 1990’s has speed.
So why was Bobby Cox so unwilling to hit and run, to bunt players over, to CREATE runs?
You know why Joe Torre and Tito Francona have won 6 World Series between them?
Because they use(d) National League management techniques (small ball) in the American League.
Bobby Cox uses American League managerment techniques (wait for the 3-run homer) with a National League team.
Bobby Cox refused to use his pitchers and bench wisely.
How many Octobers did Andruw Jones make the last out, at home, in the bottom of the ninth, in a win or go home game, with a better hitter (like Julio Franco) sitting on the bench?
Bobby Cox, and his horrible decisions in October, doomed some of the most talented teams every put together by one of baseball’s best GM (and himself, when he was GM) because he refused to manager October with any sense of urgency and with any intelligence.
In the regular season, the idiocy of Bobby Cox was covered up by his great talent.
In the post season, his idiocy was laid bare for all to see when his talented baseball team played against almost equal talent and a smarter manager.
The cream rises to the top.
Bobby Cox is not cream.
Are you getting it now? Do you understand?
In short series, a talented team can be brought down by a terrible manager.
i.e, Bobby Cox and the Braves.
In a short series, a less talented team can beat a more talented team if they have a competent manager.
i.e. Jim Kelly and the 1991 Twins, Jim Fregosi and the 1993 Phillies, Joe Torre and the 1996 Yankees, Jim Leyland and the 1997 Marlins, Bruce Bochy and the 1998 Padres, Tony LaRussa and the 2000 Cardinals, Dusty Baker and the 2002 Giants, Dusty Baker and the 2003 Chicago Cubs, and Phil Garner and the Houston Astros 2004 and 2005.
Every single one of those teams were LESS talented than the Braves teams they faced. Maybe the Marlins in 1997 were equally talented, but they’d be the only ones.
The Braves only legitimately lost a post season series to a more talented team in 1992 (Blue Jays), 1999 (Yankees), and 2001 (Diamond Backs).
That’s it.
Mark Bradley, why when discussing Bobby Cox do you REFUSE to mention the fact that in the vast majority of those 13 post season final losses, did Cox lead his team to a loss against INFERIOR talent to the talent on his own team?
People… STOP blaming the players.
There is a PATTERN of incompetence that cannot be ignored.
Why were so many people here for years willing to believe Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens did steriods based on the PATTERNS… yet refuse to see the same PROOF in the patterns surrounding Bobby Cox?
You people are ALL hypocrites.
Or unbelievably stupid.
Larry
June 23rd, 2009
11:18 am
Okay, boys, I want to deviate a little from the infamous decisions by Cox over the years that no one could argue were often wrong, bad luck or not.
More than this, my primary dislike of Bobby Cox is actually not his decisions but his style of baseball. Specifically, Bobby Cox WAITS for things to happen versus MAKES things happen.
From 1991 through about 1995 the Braves were the model in baseball and their concept was “great starting pitching and defense wins the regular season and once the playoffs starts anything can happen.” Of course they finally got it all in 1995. However, starting in 1996, the New Yorks Yankees added an additional element to great pitching and defense: situational, contact hitting and overall team speed. In fact, the Yankees did not really have a 40-50 home run type of guy from 1996 though 2000 and they won 4 World Series during this time with pitching, defense and situational, contact hitters–you know, the kind of hitters that make a difference in a must win game when both teams are sporting great pitchers? Also, since moving away from this model in the last 6-8 years and adding a bunch of long ball hackers they haven’t won it have they?
My point is that Bobby Cox continues with the same strategy and player selection with streaky, hot or cold, Free swinging hacks that when they’re cold they can score 8-10 runs 2-3 games in a row; but, when they’re not, they can go several games with fews runs. Sound familiar?
Bottom line is I cannot stand to go to a game and watch Bobby Cox baseball anymore. It is easily the most boring and predictable thing in the world and I can just absolutely predict that Jeff Francoeur, Kelly Johnson or Matt Diaz will swing at pitches over their heads, in the dirt, or a foot outside the next several game.
Give me a team like the Marlins–yes Marlins this year–the Red Sox, anyone who couples speed, situational, contact hitters, bunters, etc., and you can have this style of baseball that Cox employs year after year that always found the inevitable ability to go cold in the post season at the worst possible moment–like games 4,5 6 of the 1996 World Series, and games 1-4 of the 1999 World Series.
I just don’t like Bobby Cox baseball!
Landslide
June 23rd, 2009
11:23 am
In an election, 60/40 is a landslide.
I just don’t understand how people can give Bobby all the credit when the Braves were winning yet are so eager to blame everything and everyone except Bobby when they lose.
Clint Hurdle-Rockies-gone. Went to the World Series 2 years ago.
Willie Randolph-Mets-gone. Made the playoffs since the Braves. Historic meltdown but whose to say a meltdown is worse than a slow death by underachievement year after year.
Joe Torre-gone from Yanks-4 World Championships with the Yanks-Run off from NY. Landed on his feet with the Dodgers. Change of scenary perhaps.
Phil Garner-Astros-gone-beat the Braves twice in the playoffs-went to World Series once.
Managers on the hot seat according to the press.
Eric Wedge-Indians-hotseat. Cleveland has been to the playoffs since the Braves.
Jerry Manual- Mets
Joe Girardi- Yanks
Jim Leyland- Detroit is playing better so his job is less tenuous than it was when the season began.
Ron Washington-The same can be said for Washington as Leyland, since the Rangers have played much better this season his job doesn’t seem to be at risk like it was when the season began.
Cecil Cooper- Astros
I could go on and on but the point is that Cox isn’t on the hot seat. Isn’t rumored to be on the hot seat and seems to have a job in Atlanta as long as he wants one.
It seems that the price for the Braves winning one World Series in 1995 was to give Cox a job until he is 90 if he wishes to manage that long.
That price is too high. Cox obviously can’t motivate and produce like he used to. If he were Tom Glavine or John Smoltz, he would be gone based on the fact that he had nothing of value left to offer the Braves.
Just a shame the Braves don’t use the same performance measurements of their management as they do when evaluating what Braves future HOFamers have to offer.
7
June 23rd, 2009
11:26 am
Larry, I believe you won that round. Loved the “I popped a vessel!” and “competing intellectually with unarmed opponent.”
Beware Mark is armed. He has the Media as his weapon.
Larry I believe you won that round but Mark does have a weapon. He has the media to get his opinion across. It worked for Obama, and what did we get… 3 Trillion more in debt plus.
Missing the Braves of the 90's......
June 23rd, 2009
11:26 am
Bobby is a very good manager………I thank him for helping turn the Braves into a good team for the last 15 years or so. He is probably one of the best regular season managers ever.
He is NOT a very good postseason manager, fair at best. I have watched every playoff game in the last 17 years..and I can honestly say we should have won more postseason games and maybe another 2 world series. Too bad you can’t have one manager in the regular season and another in the Post-season!
Bobby thanks for all the great years. You are a class act! After this year hand the baton to another and enjoy retirement. We might be bad some years but when we get to the World Series someday we will actually win it.
Don
June 23rd, 2009
11:33 am
It is absolutely unbelievable that Bobby Cox has never understood and that baseball writers do not understand the absolute necessity of working the count and making the opposing pitcher throw a lot of pitches – if you are to have consistant run production. This enebles your hitters to see what the pitcher has, adjust to him, get better pitches to hit, make him make mistakes, tire him out within innings and for the game, get into their weak middle relief ect. etc. Right now the Braves are next to last in all of baseball in average number of pitches seen per at bat. This is typical Cox and is terrible offensive management. You will never have a acceptable run production as long as you do not stress and demand that your hitters do this. Granted Cox is one of the best at keeping team in good spirits on and even keel etc.; but is a terrible offensive manager and in game manager. After all the way he won 14 divisions was having an All Star Pitching Staff so dominant and far far superior to the other teams that it made overcame his incompetence as an offense manager and made it almost impossible to lose the Division over the 162 game regular season schedule. Even with this Piching, he won only one W.S. How can anyone manage for 20 plus years and not understand the absoulute necessity for working the count and making the opposing pitcher throw a lot of piches.
Mark Bradley
June 23rd, 2009
11:38 am
If I had one Bobby Cox postseason move to second-guess — and truth to tell, I second-guessed in the next day’s AJC — it would be his starting lineup for Game 3 in San Diego in the 1998 NLCS. With the Braves down 0-2 in the series, he went with his right-handed platoon of Bautista, Graffanino and Gerald Williams against Sterling Hitchcock … and, because Greg Maddux pitched, he also used Eddie Perez as his catcher as opposed to Javy Lopez. (The headline on the MB column in the Sunday AJC: “Let’s start with that lineup …”)
Javy eventually came to bat in that game — against Trevor Hoffman with the bases loaded and two out in the eighth. (This was at the height of the “Hell’s Bells” Hoffman frenzy.) Hoffman struck him out. The Braves lost to go down 0-3 in the series. They won Games 4 and 5 but were eliminated in Game 6. (Hitchcock against the righty platoon again, although Maddux didn’t pitch so Eddie didn’t catch.)
One final aside: After the Braves won Game 4, someone tugged on my sleeve in the clubhouse — Eddie Perez. He’d read the Game 3 column and wasn’t happy with me. “You don’t think I do a good job catching Maddux?” he asked. I said I thought he did, but down 0-2 I thought the Braves missed Javy’s bat. (Even though Eddie had two hits in Game 3.)
I hated that Eddie was upset because he’s a great guy. And I was tickled when, one year later, Eddie Perez was named MVP of the NLCS against the Mets.
Homer
June 23rd, 2009
11:39 am
FIRE BRADLEY!!!
Larry
June 23rd, 2009
11:39 am
Brian,
While Nagy, Martinez and Hershiser may have led the team in the regular season, both Hershiser and Martinez were like 40+ year old pitchers well past their prime. And, I stand behind my statement the Indians had possibly the weakest World Series Starting Pitching in the past 20-25 seasons.
coach joe
June 23rd, 2009
11:44 am
GOOD STUFF. GREAT DISCUSSIION.
BOBBY DOESN’T HIT OR THROW. NOUGH SAID
GO LSU. TIGER BAIT
Braves73
June 23rd, 2009
11:45 am
You took the words out of my mouth…literally! As I stated earlier (which you further elaborated), that was a Bobby classic…truly one for the ages.