Survey says: Bobby Cox has supporters. Who knew?
You dared me to pose the question in poll form. Being daring, I did. I asked last week, “Do the Braves need a new manager?” I was sure I knew what the majority would say, but it was a thinner majority than I expected.
Sixty percent of roughly 2,000 respondents said the Braves do in fact need a new manager. I figured it would be 70-30, maybe even 80-20. And why did I think that?
Because I read the comments on the ol’ blog.
And I’ve grown accustomed to the anti-Cox rants. How he blew all those World Series. How he’s 1-14 in the final game of the postseason. (Not, mind you, in the final game of a postseason series — let’s not give him any credit for winning the NLCS five times or an NLDS six times — or even in elimination games.) How he’s a terrible tactician. How he shouldn’t have brought in Leibrandt to face Puckett. (Even though Leibrandt had faced Puckett in that World Series twice already — and had twice struck him out.)
I’ve been called an idiot for my support of Bobby Cox so often I assumed I was alone in the universe. Turns out I’m not. Turns out 40 percent of our poll’s respondents — admittedly, this is an unscientific survey, but you could vote only once per computer — decided the skipper isn’t so maladroit after all.
And even though what I wrote wasn’t entirely an endorsement of Cox as manager of the 2009 Braves, I was heartened to see that some folks appreciate a body of work. The old baseball man Rocky Bridges once said: “There are three things the average man thinks he can do better than anybody else: Build a fire, run a hotel, and manage a baseball team.”
Apparently 40 percent of our voters either weren’t quite average — or weren’t men.
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224 comments Add your comment
BT
June 23rd, 2009
7:17 am
Make people talk and sometimes even think. Those were great few blogs last week that spurred discussion and people are still talking about it. Way to go Mark.
Larry
June 23rd, 2009
7:32 am
Mark,
Congratulations! Finally a writer with the courage to at least discuss the issue. And yes, Mark, I’m the guy who a couple of years back authored the “1-14 last game of the postseason record” (including his loss at Toronto) that you are on record as challenging as possibly not a real statistic. And I think this is every much a statistic as the won/loss record of a team or manager for the opening game of a season that is so often mentioned. In fact, I would consider this to be this most important of statistics in that Bobby just doesn’t have the in-game and strategic skills to manage a short series where the competition is best. Most of his postseason series wins are against inferior opponents in early rounds, but when matched up against the great pitching in the later rounds his is always out managed and his only last game victory was because of Glavine’s one hitter in the 1995 World Series or Bobby Cox would be sporting a perfect 0-15 last game record in the postseason. Anyway you want to spin it, Mark, 1-14 is overwhelming and convincing evidence of a Manager who simply cannot find a way to close the deal and thus we as fans have been left on 14 occasions to watch our opponent celebrate on the pitcher’s mound!
I don’t agree with you, but I respect and applaud your courage and willingness to address Cox’s managerial ability unlike your weak sisters, DOB and Jeff Schultz.
However, I have a question. Your position in your article that the responders seemingly validate your position makes no sense. 60% of those agree that Cox should be replaced, not 60% who think he shouldn’t. So, what is your point? Are you saying that those in the majority are wrong?
With the dominant pitching afforded Cox he won most of his 14 division titles (before the split from the west)over the like of the expansion Marlins, the Expos (Nationals) and the Phillies and Mets. Nice, but not exceptional in my opinion given the talent the Braves’ GM, Scouting Department and Player Development plopped in Cox’s lap for about 15 seasons. However, the true test of a great manager comes in the short series in the postseason when a bright, strategic, in-game decision manager can be the difference in a tight game or series. In this regard, Bobby Cox is absolutely the worst postseason manager in baseball history. Who is the best today? Check out the skipper for the Red Sox who had the courage in 2007 to sit his season long center fielder, Coco Crisp, for the hot bat in the postseason. That’s called courage, Mark, and Bobby Cox would have continued to let Andruw Jones strike out, game after game, even at the expense of losing the series!
1-14! Think about it! 1-14!
Be-little, BeBOLD
June 23rd, 2009
8:00 am
Let’s hear an AMEN BRO for Larry!!! One hundred percent in agreement bro! Cox is TOO loyal to his players. Sometimes you have to kick butt to get production. Entirely too laid back!
Mark Bradley
June 23rd, 2009
8:05 am
The all-time leader in getting thrown out of games is … too laid back?
matt_T
June 23rd, 2009
8:11 am
Anyone who points to the 1-14 record in the playoffs doesn’t have a clue.
In order to win the WS you have to make it to the playoffs, and Bobby had the team in the playoffs each year, until the recent rough patch.
Anything can happen in the short playoff series. Ask the Yankees. And they got rid of Torre, and the next manager didn’t make the playoffs.
Brian
June 23rd, 2009
8:18 am
That “1-14″ stat is kinda shady. The only way you can get a win is to win the World Series. There shouldn’t exactly be a high expectation for that win-loss record. Tony LaRussa is 2-10. Joe Torre is 4-10. Lou Piniella is 1-6. John McGraw was 3-7. Tommy Lasorda 2-6. Earl Weaver 1-5.
Basically the only guys who don’t have really bad records in those games are Casey Stengel and Joe McCarthy managing the great Yankee dynasties.
Michael Scharff
June 23rd, 2009
8:21 am
Wow, Mark – first “avuncular,” now “maladroit” – you’re going to have us keeping a dictionary by our desks before you know it!
I tried to comment the other day, but the comment section was already so full, I said to myself – forget about it – Mark will never see my thoughts among the hundred or more others already here.
I am glad Bobby’s players liek him. And, I do give Bobby some credit for managing the Braves during their unprecedented run of championships. On the other hand, in my opinion, he has always relied far too much on big ball (home runs) and never on small ball. Even when the Braves have had speed, Bobby rarely takes advantage of it. Plus, I’m not sure of the stats, but a) it appears that the Braves hit into more double plays than any other team I’ve ever seen, and b) they appear to leave more men on base than any other team I’ve ever seen.
matt_T
June 23rd, 2009
8:30 am
Thanks Brian. Funny that Genius LaRussa is only 2-10 and that last win was with one of the worst teams to ever make the playoffs. Further proving that the playoffs are a crapshoot. Just getting into the playoffs is what is important.
Larry
June 23rd, 2009
8:43 am
Brian,
I agree that you have to get there and the odds are that one will more than likely have a losing record in the final game of the postseason if they’ve been there multiple times. I’m not oblivious to the obvious. However, I’d take a 3-12 record for Cox as this means we would have at least 3 World Series Championships and I believe this is the minimum expectation given the abundance of talent and opportunities afforded the Braves.
What do I honestly think about Cox? I honestly think he is one if not the best regular season managers for a team rich in starting pitching which will always win the majority of 162 games and beat out 4 other teams. But, I also think he is either simply not bright enough, too stubborn or loyal to a fault. or just simply doesn’t have the “knack” or that difficult to define instinct to make the best decisions at the right time and this is why he is the absolute worst in winning the short series or deciding game against other managers matching him with the comparable starting pitching one sees in a league championship series and certainly the world series.
Do you think it a coincidence that the only championship under Cox came against the Cleveland Indians in 1995 who just happened to have perhaps the worst starting pitching in recent world series history?
He’s a good guy, the players love him, but he truly manages like a little league manager by barking out cute little nicknames to grown men and leaving in weaker players struggling at the plate even if it means losing the darn game. He is simply not world championship manager!
UGASlobberknocker
June 23rd, 2009
8:43 am
Cox is a Hall of Famer for sure. Yet sometimes a team needs to hear a new voice. It is my hope that Cox gracefully retires at the end of this season and we bring in someone new. I definately dont think Pendleton is the man. I would be OK with Yost.
McCann fan
June 23rd, 2009
8:48 am
I’m just glad nobody said “First” today like on DOB’s blogs. I don’t feel like my opinion of Cox should count as much as most, as I have only lived here for 5 years and really didn’t grow up with the Braves.
I am a huge fan now, as a product of making Atlanta my home. Semi-objectively I feel like when a team is not living up to the past and to current expectations sometimes it is time for a change. But many times the injection of something (or someone) new provides a quick and short-lived kick that fades faster than it began.
Changes need to be made, but I’m not ready to conclude that Bobby needs to be one of them. I don’t always agree with his in-game strategy, but I think he will know when it is time to step down, or up into the front office as it were.
Larry
June 23rd, 2009
8:55 am
matt_t,
This is where you and I differ. While an element of luck is always a part of any sport, I happened to be a of the group who believes that great coaching supersedes luck most of the time.
Letting Leibrandt pitch to Puckett in 1991 was not luck!
Letting Leibrandt pitch to Carter in 1992 was not luck!
Sitting on your duff and watching McMichaels blow saves is not luck.
Sitting on your duff and watching Kolb blow saves is not luck
Sitting on your duff and watching Wickman blow saves is not luck.
And now, having a team who is the among worst at walking, the worst at striking out, the worst at stealing bases, the worst at bunting, the worst at moving runners, and the worst at just about every important category–except the ERA of the starting pitching, as usual–is an indictment of managerial futility–not luck!
Mitch C
June 23rd, 2009
9:01 am
Mark, I know that I was one of the people who said it was time for Bobby to go, and it’s not because I dont have respect for the man, or what he has accomplished. I’ve been a Braves fan for 26 years, and I have a great deal of respect for what he has done for baseball, this city, and this team. I just thought that maybe, after twenty consecutive years as manager, it might be time for a change. Maybe I’m wrong.
The Braves are only a few games out of first. I ‘m hopeful that we can have a seven and three homestand, and do something to get us back into contention. It would be awesome if this team could make it to the playoffs, even as the wild card. With the way the Mets and Phillies are playing, that isnt an unrealistic goal.
If Bobby stays for a while, I will be fine with it.
Mitch
matt_T
June 23rd, 2009
9:05 am
Larry-
I don’t think its luck. My point is in a small series (which the playoffs are) small things are amplified. For example, the Yankees just lost 4 out of 6 to the Nats and Marlins. Does anyone think the Nats or Marlins are better? No, but in a small series they won.
And I completely agree with you that those examples were completely wrong. I invented new curse words for Kolb/Wickman, that was just unexcusable.
Gene
June 23rd, 2009
9:06 am
Those of us who were around in the 25 years prior to Cox’s arrival probably appreciate him more than more recent fans. Lately the Braves’ front office has made some terrible decisions, and I wonder if Cox has had any say so in disasters like the Teixeria trade and the shabby treatment of Smoltz and Glavine. (Regardless of their value to the Braves, their treatment did nothing for team morale.) Hitting, and clutch hitting in particular, has certainly been a weakness, and perhaps it is time that Cox evaluate Pendleton’s performance.
Retch
June 23rd, 2009
9:09 am
The Braves should have more than one World Series title with the talent Bobby had. But this year is his worst managing job ever. The Braves need to rebuild and make changes, starting with Bobby and Terry Pendleton.
Mark Bradley
June 23rd, 2009
9:09 am
I understand completely, Mitch C. I share some of those sentiments, as I tried to articulate the other day.
Mark Bradley
June 23rd, 2009
9:11 am
OK, here’s a question: Who should Cox have brought in to pitch to Puckett in the 11th inning of Game 6?
Frank
June 23rd, 2009
9:15 am
Bobby Cox is the Bobby Bowden of MLB.He built the Braves from nothing.Let him stay as long as he likes.
Outside Robber
June 23rd, 2009
9:18 am
I agree with another’s comments about Mark having the courage to at least broach the topic of Cox continuing as manager. Good, bad, or indifferent, accountability has to be taken into consideration, doesn’t it?
The Braves have been watching post-season games on TV for the past 3 years. Who do you hold accountable for that?
Kentavo
June 23rd, 2009
9:20 am
Anyone but Liebrandt.
P-Man
June 23rd, 2009
9:22 am
It seems that those who don’t remember the past are doomed to repeat it. Do you remember when Cox was fired after the ‘81 season? He said in print that the team was poised to have a great year. Torre was hired (the only major change) and the Braves won the division in ‘82. Then, after 2 straight 2nd place finishes, Torre was fired because we had “reached a plateau”. We all know what happened after that.
The Falcons also “reached a plateau” with Leeman Bennett, and then promptly disintegrated for 10-15 years. Dan Reeves “reached a plateau” and we got stuck with Mora and Petrino. Change for its own sake isn’t always good.
On another note- when did it become all important to win the championship? It seems nowadays, that people aren’t satisfied if we don’t “win it all”. Only titles matter. The braves have given me years of enjoyment, even when they were a pitiful club in the 70s and 80s. It’s about entertainment. Do I want the Braves (or Falcons, or Dawgs, or Hawks, or…) to win every game? Absolutely! Is it realistic? No! Do I want them to win the title every year? You bet! Is it gonna happen? No way! Am I disappointed? Sure! But you know what? Life goes on, and I’ll root for them the next year, WIN OR LOSE, because I am a FAN!
OK, I am climbing down off my soap box now. Thanks for listening (reading).
Braves73
June 23rd, 2009
9:22 am
Larry – You absolutely nailed it. We all applaud Bobby’s regular season brilliance, but his undeniably a horrible tactical manager. It’s very difficult because the one thing that made/makes Bobby great, is that he is such a GREAT players managers. You could argue that without Bobby the Braves would not have even made the post season with such consistency. I believe that’s what makes Bobby so frustrating. We see his finer qualities (which used to get us to the playoffs), but his horrific late-inning decisions have always left us scratching our heads.
7
June 23rd, 2009
9:23 am
Just because you use the F word and get thrown out don’t mean crap. Not a record to be proud of.
When did 40% of something prove you the winner when the other point on view gets 60%.
If 40% of the Fans are happy with the present Braves, losings last 4 years, no fans in stands, etc Great you got it. But for me and 60% of the fans,we want a winner. Bobby is not the future!
Kentavo
June 23rd, 2009
9:27 am
We need a RH bat!
Mac
June 23rd, 2009
9:28 am
I was a Braves fan when they stunk. And, they stunk for a looooooong time. Hating on Bobby Cox is like hating on Santa Claus. He can retire when he wants to. I don’t think the team will contend this year, but I’m far more encouraged about the rebuilding effort now that there are so many quality pitchers on staff.
Larry
June 23rd, 2009
9:30 am
Mark,
After 18 years I can’t remember the options over Leibrandt in 1991. But, had this alone happened in only 1991 you just chalk it up to bad luck. It the same “body or work” of poor, questionable or non decisions that STARTED in 1991 that is the issue here, not just that one at bat. And, just because Leibrandt, a slow, deliberate left hander, had struck out Puckett in two previous at bats is not the reason to pick this match up in the 11th inning. Wouldn’t you think that all of the odds would be in Puckett’s favor giving the facts and Puckett’s all star status? Whew!
This is precisely my point–Bobby Cox does not have a knack or the aptitude to make key, in-game strategic decisions in close or deciding games!
What is your excuse, Mark, for the very next year Bobby Cox letting the same left handed Charlie Leibrandt pitch to the right handed Joe Carter who also had the key hit in game six of the 1992 world series? This is blatant ignorance or stubbornness and neither is acceptable for championship baseball
Don’t be so selective, Mark! 1-14 is impossible to ignore!
VICK FAN
June 23rd, 2009
9:31 am
I SUPPORT MIKE VICK AND NOT SOME SORRY OLD MAN !
Whopper Dawg
June 23rd, 2009
9:33 am
I have been a Braves fan since they arrived to Atlanta. I remember when all I had to hang my hat on was Aaron and Niekro. Bobby and John had a great run. Sparkling regular season records, but unfortunately, I think that they will be viewed as underachievers in the post season, fairly or not. When your rotation includes three HOFs, and you close the deal once, I am afraid that is what you get.
That being said, no way you move Cox out. He is a good manager. I don’t think anyone can do better with this lineup. I looked at the standings a couple of days ago and the Braves were fourth in the East and the fifth worse team in the NL. The last five years or so, management has viewed the Braves as being one piece short of the puzzle, when actually the team was in a more severe decline – the result of which has been to trade for the piece at the expense of young talent which further erodes the base.
They need to develop their talent, trade Chipper for youngsters and start to climb back.
Mark Bradley
June 23rd, 2009
9:33 am
Joe Carter didn’t have the key hit in Game 6 of the 1992 World Series. You could look it up, as Casey Stengel used to say.
Bama Aaron
June 23rd, 2009
9:39 am
I have been on both sides of this issue. I have supported him because during most of my adult life they’ve won much more than when I was a kid. And I have railed against him for his inability to be able to manage a pitching staff and for losing more than he won in World Series. For a long time I believed he was the only man who could properly manage the Braves, I don’t know if that’s true anymore. But I still can’t think of anyone who would be better.
Braves73
June 23rd, 2009
9:41 am
Mark, moving forward you have already stated two possible replacements for Bobby. We all appreciate you toting the company line (as to not piss off someone you may have to potentially interview…again), but it’s clear (as even you stated) that this team and Bobby are not a match. We recognize his previous accomplishments, but it’s time to move on.
abudefdef
June 23rd, 2009
9:42 am
I think Bobby needs to use some speed on the base paths…how many runs get generated by stealing bases, or the threat of a SB causing a pitcher to throw the ball away, or walk a batter, etc?
We need a Nixon/Sanders combo in the outfield again…I bet Neon could still play, sign him for the remainder of the season! BRING BACK NEON DEON!
abudefdef
June 23rd, 2009
9:42 am
NEON DEON for manager?
hmmmmmmm
Larry
June 23rd, 2009
9:43 am
Braves73,
Touché!
P-Man,
The Braves were right to fire Bobby Cox as Joe Torre and Bob Gibson were the perfect pair to propel that 1982 team to a division title. Further, had Joe Torre, Cito Gaston, Sparky Anderson, Whitey Hertzog, Terry Francona or several other good managers been at the helm of the Braves from 1991 through 2006 there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Braves would have celebrated at least 3, and likely 4 or 5, World Series Championships. I agree with you about Leeman Bennett and Dan Reeves, but Bobby Cox should have been asked to retire at least 2-3 years ago.
Lastly, I don’t disagree that some of us–and that includes me–need to learn to just enjoy the game more regardless of the records. However, I will respect your more passive approach to professional sports where spitters and scratchers earn multi millions of dollars to play a kid’s game if you in return respect my unrelenting desire to only accept championship baseball as the supreme goal.
There are followers and leaders in all professions–I willfully choose the latter!
Larry
June 23rd, 2009
9:49 am
Mark,
Okay, you’re right, it wasn’t Joe Carter it was Dave Winfield. Funny how you didn’t have the courage to mention the identical thing happened and you must have learned this when you looked it up.
The summary:
“With the score still tied in the 11th, Dave Winfield came to the plate with two on and two out. Eleven years earlier, Winfield went 1-for-22 as a Yankee in his only other World Series appearance, a four-games-to-two loss to the Dodgers. Now at age 41, Winfield was looking to redeem that stain on his Hall of Fame resume. But it would have to come at the expense of pitcher Charlie Leibrandt, who was looking for some redemption of his own. The previous year, Leibrandt was also handed the ball with the game tied in extra innings of Game 6, and he promptly surrendered a game-winning home run to Kirby Puckett. This time, it was Winfield’s turn to be the hero, as his two-run double down the third-base line put the Jays up 4-2.”
Shame on you, Mark, for your lack of journalistic courage and integrity!
Herschel Talker
June 23rd, 2009
9:51 am
Where’s Robert?
Anyone who thinks that Cox’s loyalty to his players and inability to handle a pitching staff aren’t hurting the Braves just isn’t paying attention.
Ted Striker
June 23rd, 2009
9:53 am
If — prior to 330 B.C. — you’d polled individuals on whether the earth was flat or spherical, nearly 100% would’ve said “flat.”
I’m not impressed by the 60%. Poll the other 29 MLB managers on the question and I’d be surprised by 6% saying replace Cox. (But what do MLB managers know about baseball that folks who’ve never been to the big leagues without a ticket know anyway?)
Space Monkey
June 23rd, 2009
9:58 am
Bobby has been a great in-season manager for the Braves. But he never realized the importance of one game in a post-season series. That’s why Torre skunked him. Torre knew that every game counted. Torre wouldn’t hang on to a faltering pitcher just because he said he still had some left. If the guy was gassed, Torre yanked him. More importantly, Torre went with the hot hand, rather than the lefty-righty percentages. How many times did Cox pull a great hitter just because of a lefty-lefty matchup and replace him with a banjo hitter instead. Those are my two greatest criticisms of Cox: He stuck with pitchers way too long in critical games and he’s a slave to lefty-righty BS. Any smart manager knows you can force him to yank one of his best players by just announcing that you are bringing in a journeyman left-hander.
BugKiller
June 23rd, 2009
9:59 am
Bobby Cox remains, for all the evidence provided ad naseum, the single most overrated manager in the history of baseball.
And the single worst postseason manager in the history of baseball.
Weak sauce, Mark. Weak sauce.
BOB WICKMAN
June 23rd, 2009
9:59 am
THIS IS GARBAGE. I SHOULD STILL BE ON THIS TEAM
abudefdef
June 23rd, 2009
9:59 am
Ted Striker…awesome comment I must say…
I still vote for NEON DEON, bring some personality and speed!!!
J/K, I’m a HUGE Bobby Cox fan, even though I wish the Braves would RUN more (when we do get on base, that is)
Larry
June 23rd, 2009
10:02 am
Ted,
Of course the other Managers like Cox as they hope to meet him in the postseason where he is the easist to outmanage among their peers. What’s so hard for you to understand here? Joe Torre just loeves Bobby Cox!
Last night’s game is the perfect game fo Bobby Cox where he gets shutout pitching and is left only to make the most obvious decision–filling out the lineup card before the game and then pulling the starter after he tires.
BUT, just watch the next three series when Bobby is forced to think now and then and get back to me next week, okay?
Blackberry Cobbler
June 23rd, 2009
10:05 am
Why is it ok to applaud Cox and give him the credit for all the good years but then not blame him for the decline in recent years? If he gets the credit when things are good then he also has to accept the blame when things are not so good. It’s always a 2-way street.
BugKiller
June 23rd, 2009
10:06 am
And it’s not that I believe I could do a better job than Cox, Mark.
But I know who WOULD have done a better job than Cox:
Joe Torre
Tito Francona
Sparky Anderson
Cito Gaston
Tony LaRussa
Whitey Herzog
Tom Kelly
Jim Leyland
Lou Pinella
Dusty Baker
Buck Schowalter
Jim Fregosi
… and dozens, dozens more.
Shoot, Mark… you give BOBBY VALENTINE the teams Cox had in the 1990’s, and HE wins more than one World Series.
BOBBY VALENTINE!!!
Bobby Cox was handed some of the greatest teams in the history of baseball, and squandered every bit of potential they had come October.
Why?
Because he refused to change his approach. He refused to see that October is DIFFERENT than April.
How many hot bats did he leave on the bench?
How many light-hitting veterans did he leave in the line-up?
How many idiotic platoons did he stick Ryan Klesko in?
How many times did he run Glavine and Maddox out there as his No. 1 & 2 pitchers when HISTORY showed us that in October, those two corner nibblers were .500 pitchers?
How many times did the BEST October pitcher in the history of baseball only get to pitch once, maybe twice in a series?
Mark, do you know what Einstein says about insanity?
It’s doing the same thing, over and over, the same way every time, but expecting a different result each time.
Bobby Cox in October is the DEFINITION of insanity.
BugKiller
June 23rd, 2009
10:10 am
Oh, and Mark, ONLY Bobby Cox could take some of the greatest teams in baseball history and lose to guys like BRUCE BOCHY and PHIL GARNER.
Slap Hitter
June 23rd, 2009
10:11 am
Yeah Lou Pinella would have done a better job…… How many titles has he won with the Cubs who have an abundance of talent and 1 of the highest payrolls in the game. Your just a hater. lucky for us nobody who matters and makes decisions cares what you think
Daniel
June 23rd, 2009
10:11 am
the people that complain about Cox have the same tired arguments, and it is really quite boring. There is NOTHING new to this discussion. The only stone left unturned is what Cox has meant to Atlanta sports and its fans. I mean to say that it is because of Bobby Cox that Atlanta is no longer referred to as Loserville. He is the single most responsible figure for bringing an attitude and awareness of winning to Atlanta and for all the Pro sports teams here. Those that continue to complain about him, do so from the position of fans that are used to winning BECAUSE HE PROVIDED THE WINNING. As you stated earlier Mark, some of the players on this team who are not performing operate from a position of being winners even though they have done nothing to earn that legacy. In general, sports fans are very short-sighted with short attention spans. Quite egotistical as well. To continue to bash Cox, and think that you are being interesting and rebelious in doing so, is asinine. It really just makes you sound like a spoiled brat. So quit it, please.
Larry
June 23rd, 2009
10:13 am
BugKiller,
You, Sir, have courage!
However, be most careful here, as your facts may tend to interfere with a good story for old Mark and some baseball goobers on here who worship Bobby and gaze with utmost admiration at the unparalleled depths of his nasal mining.
Larry
Mark Bradley
June 23rd, 2009
10:15 am
Charlie Leibrandt won 15 games in both 1991 and 1992, each time with an ERA of under 3.50. Tell me: What better option, as his fourth (in 1991) and fifth (1992) pitcher of the night, did Cox have than a 15-game winner in extra innings of Game 6 of a World Series? Sandy Koufax? Well, duh. But he wasn’t on the roster.
Tell me: Who should Cox have used?
(FYI: In 1992, Cox didn’t bring in Leibrandt to work the 11th inning. He entered the game at the start of the 10th. Worked a scoreless inning, in other words.)
abudefdef
June 23rd, 2009
10:15 am
NEON DEON!!!!
Question is, would he leave his comfortable ananlyst/reporter gig in Football to take over coaching…does he even want to?
At least one inquiring mind wants to know…
NEON DEON!!!
P-Man
June 23rd, 2009
10:16 am
Larry,
You misunderstand me. I am just as intense as the next guy while the game is going on. When it is over, it’s over (and yes, I may rehash it in my mind and with my friends for a day or 2). My point is that I do not brand people failures because they don’t “win it all”. Ernie Banks was not a failure, Ted Williams was not a failure, etc, etc, etc. The Bills of the early 90s were the most dominant team in the NFL, but lost the Super Bowl, what was it, 4 straight times? Still a GREAT team. Disappointing, but still great. Why can’t we enjoy the success without obsessing over “winning it all”? Only one team (or individual) can “win it all”.
One of the things I liked about College Football (before the BCS) was that half of the bowl teams (the winners) went home happy. A whole bunch of other teams were happy to win the rivalry gane and end the season with a win. Now, however, if you don’t make (and win) the BCS championship game, you’re a failure. Witness how Bob Stoops and Jim Tressel are ridiculed for not “winning it all” the last few years, or how Mark Richt and his assistants are villified in blogs for not making it to the championship game. Are these guys failures? Should they all be fired?
Braves73
June 23rd, 2009
10:16 am
Bug Killer, Space Monkey, & Larry – Dead on with every point made. Bobby has too much player loyalty and can’t make the tough decisions in post season play. I can remember Bobby beating T.P. into the ground (in his 2nd Braves stint) when he had nothing left. I remember Tony Grafininno & Danny Bautiste starting in key playoff games in 97-98. I could go on for days…
Slap Hitter
June 23rd, 2009
10:17 am
Also it takes no courage to sit on a blog and comment on how you think someone should lose his job. Maybe we should start a new blog that is calling for you to get fired (if you are employed).
buckhead bob
June 23rd, 2009
10:18 am
It’s amazing to me how many people responding about Bobby Cox say he is too laid back – too close to his players – too this – too that! I am sure none of the posters have ever played for him – or even been close to a major league dugout – remember Little League doesn’t count. While I have to admit the lack of more Championships is a negative, the Braves have one a lot more ball games than the Hawks or Falcons and more than a lot of other major league baseball teams. Bobby will retire when he is ready and then we will see what direction the team will go. Until then, enjoy!
Slap Hitter
June 23rd, 2009
10:19 am
Exactly Mark, what it looks like to me is we have a lot of Monday morning quaterbacks that think Joe Torre or Larussa would have made a different decision. There was no better choice available to pitch in either situation than Leibrandt.
Ted Striker
June 23rd, 2009
10:21 am
Larry — As I said to you yesterday: “I’m sorry. I don’t have time to play with you.”
alsim
June 23rd, 2009
10:22 am
The real issue you need to look at is NOT who Bobby Cox was as a manager in the 1990s. It is who is Bobby Cox, the manager, in 2009 and beyond.
God bless him for his integrity and years of service to the team, but he just doesn’t have it anymore.
You may recall he almost retired a few seasons ago. I don’t question his heart, but how much heart and energy does he still have left in the tank?
.
Mac
June 23rd, 2009
10:24 am
Larry, man you are hyperactive and annoying. I flick a booger in your general direction, before retiring to get work done.
Jfreak
June 23rd, 2009
10:24 am
Cox has been great for the Braves! He helped turn this team into what was the envy of the sports world for many years. However, that is era has come and gone. Nothing last forever and that includes Cox. I can’t see the Braves firing him and don’t believe he deserves to be fired. Cox has earned the right to decide his furture. However, I feel like Cox’s effectiveness is absent with this young team. He can’t hit for them and they wont listen so we are left to decide do we fire half the team or does one man step aside for the good of the team? Not an easy question to answer.
They are playing a little better overall right now and they are a respectable team. If they hit and learn (or allowed) to play small ball a little more they can compete?? IF?
Justafan
June 23rd, 2009
10:26 am
Ted Striker, speak for yourself son. I was at the Park in 70, 80, 90. where were you. I was there till 3 am in morning for longest extra inning game. I was there when Ted called John Mullen to come to his office to fire Torre,after one person had got in Ted’s ear in his box seat . I was there when Ted fell on field drunk. I was there for Hank’s great homer. I was there with Pearl… 7 years without missing a game..Where was you Stricker, Oh without a ticket?
How the hell do you know what nearly 100% would have said in 330BC? Was you there? Alot of ML mgrs are not to smart just lucky. Have a great day.
How in hell do you know
Braves73
June 23rd, 2009
10:27 am
Mark, you stated earlier on “who would you bring in the 11th inning of game 6, 91 world series”. Well, I have two names (who were RELIEF PITCHERS) that should have been brought in….Kent Mercker, Juan Berenguer.
TNJeff
June 23rd, 2009
10:27 am
I always find it humorous when someone clouts their opinion and supports it as agreed upon by public opinion only to be followed by the disclaimer “unscientific poll.”
So basically we still may not have an accurate assessment … Still I fell I’m getting a better, more accurate assessment of your (Bradley’s) opinions in general. Finding less and less to read in the AJC
BugKiller
June 23rd, 2009
10:28 am
Slap Hitter…
… the point is, you give Lou Pinella some of the greatest teams in the history of baseball and 14 STRAIGHT YEARS OF POSTSEASON PLAY…
… and he wins more than ONE World Series.
And sorry, but you proclaim your ignorance to the world when you compare the current Cubs teams to the Braves teams of the 1990s.
Again… you give ANY manager those teams, and they win more than ONE World Series.
You give Joe Girardi from today those 14 teams, and he wins more than ONE World Series.
Are you finally getting it?
If it finally sinking in to your pea brain yet?
Bobby Cox, and ONLY Bobby Cox, could take those 14 teams and only win ONE World Series.
At the very LEAST, the Braves should have won THREE STRAIGHT World Series, 1995-1997.
And been to at least three more than the five they went to: 1993, 1997, and 2001.
What Bobby Cox has done as manager of this team is EMBARRASSING.
Why do you refuse to face facts?
Daniel
June 23rd, 2009
10:28 am
Bug Killer- Hindsight is 20/20. It must be nice to live a world where you get to look at the results then blame the methods after the fact.
It is a really poor way to look at sports and life for that matter. I also want to let you know that no matter how much the Braves win or lose that empty spot in your soul will never be filled that way. You certainly could display more integrity than ripping Bobby Cox and signing your own name.
TNJeff
June 23rd, 2009
10:29 am
Justafan
You were there all those years? Sounds like you need to get a life!
Daniel
June 23rd, 2009
10:30 am
Bug Killer- All of your statements are supposition. You have not stated one “fact”. When do you refuse to face the english language?
Larry
June 23rd, 2009
10:30 am
Ted,
I’m married, my friend, I wife would prefer that you not “play with me” either. Now, go find a single guy to “play with!”
Larry
Ralph The Cat
June 23rd, 2009
10:30 am
It is the nature of writers and fans to take Managers to task when the result we hope for doesn’t happen. So, the criticism of Bobby Cox is not unexpected. But why not take the Ownership to task for limiting what a team can do financially or the players to task for not producing or the players and agents to task for their greed in placing money ahead of team loyalty. We fans don’t jump ship for greater enticements. We’re here every year — loyal, hopeful, cheering. So, when a beat writer loads up on one of baseballs most successful skippers, it is just another of the distractions we fans have to face. Is Cox perfect? No, but he’s one of the best and we are fortunate to have had him all these years.
BugKiller
June 23rd, 2009
10:30 am
Daniel… hahahahahaha.
Oh, I’m sorry… hahahahahahahahahaha.
Okay, thanks for the laugh.
OutlawPete
June 23rd, 2009
10:35 am
Hershel Talker: Larry IS Robert!!!
J-man
June 23rd, 2009
10:38 am
I have to agree with Larry. I’ve been anti-Cox since the ‘99 World Series fiasco. Cox won 1 World Series because the ‘95 one was the only time he ever faced a manager dumber than himself. It’s well beyond time for Cox to retire with dignity and let someone else take over.
O THomason
June 23rd, 2009
10:39 am
When I think back to Sunday’s game and had a chance to win and playing in a Boston. I ask why in the world do you bring in Benett when we as a team needed that game etc.. This makes me question Bobby Cox again? Well just a thought a great hitting team as the Red Sox’s are. I understand our best closers have been worked but I ask why ? This is what Mark seems to understand and I do also, Great Baseball Man, but the times have changed. Retch I agree with you also. Space u get it.
Mark Bradley
June 23rd, 2009
10:40 am
Juan Berenguer wasn’t on the postseason roster in 1991. He was hurt. (That’s why the Braves signed Alejandro Pena.)
Kent Mercker worked 1 2/3 innings in the postseason of 1991 — and gave up the winning run against Pittsburgh in extra innings of Game 4 of the NLCS. So you’re telling me you’d rather have had a young lefthander who hadn’t had postseason success in the 11th inning of Game 6 than a seasoned lefthander who’d won 15 games and who had pitched in postseasons both as a Royal and a Brave?
Justafan
June 23rd, 2009
10:41 am
TN Jeff…I did and have not been to a game in 4 years. Will not go back till BC is gone.
That was my life for awhile, I’ll leave it at that.
DirtyDawg
June 23rd, 2009
10:42 am
Like way too many of folks here, and I include myself in this, we’re long on opinions and criticisms and short on genuine knowledge. The playoffs are a crap-shoot – particularly the first round – where dominating, hard-throwing, pitchers excel (read, John Smoltz). The teams the Braves brought into the post season leading with Glavine and Maddux, were damn good, but both of those guys were just as capable of giving up a ton of hits as not. If you look back at every post season win, and loss, there were plays and calls that went against us that were certainly out of Bobby’s control (and often in the ump’s – Eric Greg, whoever was umping first on that Kent Hrbeck (sp?) thing, veteran Lonnie Smith’s falling for rookie Knoblock’s deke and failing to look to his third-base coach, about a million calls in that million-inning game with Houston, the lame-ass stalling of Houston’s manager Phil Garner claiming the phone to the bull-pen didn’t work while his closer got ready…and many, many more.
I will admit that Bobby seems to have ‘mellowed’ as he has gotten older, and bigger, and knees that still bark at him when he tries to walk fast (and forgetabout running). Given consistent quality play from his team (and no manager wins without that) he wins and will still. The only thing I wish is that he would figure out something else to do with his hands – either that, or make sure they don’t put a camera on him in the dugout.
Go Bobby…hell, we just might win this thing yet.
Larry
June 23rd, 2009
10:44 am
Mark,
To answer your question, only a strikeout pitcher with the game on the line against a good right handed pitcher. Certainly not a slow, deliberate, nibbling lefty. You keep mentioning Leibrandt’s regular season record in 1992 and 1992. My God, man, you DO think like Bobby Cox! Who cares about Leibrandt’s regular season record as a starter when the game is on the line in the 11th inning of game six of the World Series and you have an All Star right handed hitter at the plate? I wouldn’t have brought in Tom Glavine either!
Wow! I’m competing intellectually with an unarmed opponent.
Brian
June 23rd, 2009
10:45 am
Larry, you said “Do you think it a coincidence that the only championship under Cox came against the Cleveland Indians in 1995 who just happened to have perhaps the worst starting pitching in recent world series history?”
Are you serious? The Indians had the best overall ERA in the American League by half a run that year. And their starters’ ERA was also best in the AL.
Hilton Head Island
June 23rd, 2009
10:46 am
The Braves certainly enjoyed an unprecedented 14-year run under the management of Bobby Cox. The fact that he’s won 2000+ games as a major league mananger is proof that he must know a thing or two about the game. What concerns me, however,is that the number of games he’s won is more a testament to his obvious longevity than to his real effectiveness. Given the talent he had to work with for much of that 14-year run, it would have been harder NOT to win.
The problem is that the Bobby worshippers can’t have it both ways. They can’t credit him for number of NLCS and NLDS victories and then turn around and excuse him for coming up short of the big prize in every instance but 1995. In my feeble mind, there is something more than just dumb luck to account for the lack of more World Series wins. We wouldn’t even be talking about the Puckett/Leibrandt matchup in game 6 of the 1991 WS if we didn’t see that as the beginning of a pattern of questionable decisions by Cox. The fact is that he’s stubborn, pure and simple. He sticks to the same playbook year after year and never adjusts his style to fit type of team he has. A team’s dynamic changes year after year and the management should reflect that change.
My biggest problem with Cox, though, is in his inability to see when a player can’t do the job. Case in point: Sunday at the Red Sox. Jeff Bennett is not a major league pitcher and he’s demonstrated this time and time again. Yet Bobby puts Bennet on the mound in the bottom of the 9th…and loses on 1 pitch. Some people say that Bobby is just loyal to his players, and that’s fine. But when loyalty costs the team wins as it has soooo many times in the last 18 years, it becomes one of the biggest reasons we’ve only won the 1 lone World Series.
I don’t think that anyone can argue the fact that the Braves were the best team in baseball for most of the 90’s. So why didn’t we win more World Series? The players play the game according to how their manager manages. So, given the talent of the players in the 90s, one can only conclude that the way in which they were managed left something to be desired. The same can be said for the 2009 Braves. And we have the same manager. Go figure.
Braves73
June 23rd, 2009
10:48 am
Thanks for the correction with Senor Smoke.
Now to Mercker…Yes. There’s a reason why a you have a RELIEF pitcher & a STARTING pitcher. While Charlie Liebrandt was a very good starting pitcher, his normal routine/expertise was not relief pitching. As to Merker’s youth, he had pitched in 50 games & 73 innings (2nd most amungst Braves relievers in 91) while posting a 2.88 era. Again, my answer is YES!!!!!!!!!!!
BugKiller
June 23rd, 2009
10:48 am
STOP SAYING THE PLAYOFFS ARE A CRAPSHOOT AS A DEFENSE OF BOBBY COX!!!!!
This is the SAME frakking excuse Bobby has been using for YEARS to cover for his inept handling of his teams come October and it a complete LIE!!!
You know what a crapshoot is?
Winning 4 World Series in 12 tries.
THAT is a crapshoot.
Joe Torre can use that excuse.
Bobby Cox won ONE World Series in FOURTEEN tries!!!
That is NOT a crapshoot!!!
Stop peddling B.S. lies!!!
Mark Bradley
June 23rd, 2009
10:49 am
I say again: Leibrandt had faced Puckett in Game 1 of the World Series in the very same Metrodome — and had twice struck him out.
And one thing more: When you’re tied in extra innings on the road, you’re not looking for a pitcher to get just one guy out. You know you have to get six more outs to win the game. You can’t just go lefty/righty; otherwise you’ll end up with your shortstop pitching in the 14th.
Larry
June 23rd, 2009
10:56 am
“And one thing more: When you’re tied in extra innings on the road, you’re not looking for a pitcher to get just one guy out. You know you have to get six more outs to win the game. You can’t just go lefty/righty; otherwise you’ll end up with your shortstop pitching in the 14th.”
I just popped a vessel!
Mark, simple question for you, okay? What does it take to get to “the 14th”? Answer, to get the guy out in the 11th! Now I know why you support Bobby Cox!
Whew!
DirtyDawg
June 23rd, 2009
11:01 am
BugKiller – I suppose you’ve picked that name because you, like many others of us here, aren’t fans of GTech..either that or you work for Orkin or something in which case I don’t believe I’da told that – regardless, every time you make statements and call ‘em ‘facts’ it skins your ignorance even thinner than I thought possible.
Were we disappointed in not winning more, you bet. Would any other franchise in baseball – including their fans – and with the possible exception of the Yankees that threw more money at players than God, not have traded places with the Braves during that run of 14 straight to the post season? Name it (I suppose that the long-suffering Cubs and Red Sox wouldn’t have because they’re so proud of that cross they’re were carrying on their backs – and the Cubs still do.).
Remember, when Bobby and John S. got us started on this run in ‘91 the Braves were among the laughing stock, if not ‘the’ one, of baseball, and long-suffering Braves fans hadn’t been able to enjoy baseball in September and October in forever. They gave us that and what did we do, took it for granted and blamed them for not giving it all to us…shame on us for that.
Come on Braves – give us another pennant run…I can pull for Georgia and the Falcons, ‘and the Braves’ all at the same time. In fact, it’s the most fun you can have with your clothes on.
Brian
June 23rd, 2009
11:03 am
It’s interesting to me that many of the Cox detractors point to these individual “moments” when he may or may not have made a bad decision. It’s because these people have a singular focus…their world revolves around whether or not the Braves win the WHOLE STINKIN THING every year. I’m more pleased with the quality of baseball and consistent success over a very extended period of time. I’d take being a Braves fan over being a Marlins fan who has two World Series and 15 other years of terrible baseball. I have never understood why some people get so bent out of shape when a team doesn’t win a championship every year. My ultimate goal would be to be a billionaire, but I’ll take a six figure salary any day of the week.
The man is more games over .500 than any manger in baseball history besides John McGraw and Joe McCarthy. Fourth most wins of all time. Among 10 managers with over 2000 wins, his win percentage is fourth. Two, count em, two losing seasons out of his last 21 full years as a manager. He has as sterling a reputation as you will ever find among players, colleagues, and opponents. He made the Braves into (still) one of the top five or so most respected and admired organizations in baseball. And some people are worried about whether he brought in the wrong guy to pitch to one batter 20 years ago.
Braves73
June 23rd, 2009
11:04 am
Mark, I normally agree with most of your logic but you have left me almost speechless. Mercker could have easily pitched 2 innings, not to mention that Puckett was a career .300 hitter against Charlie.
Roja
June 23rd, 2009
11:05 am
I would take our shortstop pitching over Jeff Bennett in a tie game in the bottom of the ninth inning ANY DAY! At least Yunel has an arm!
DirtyDawg
June 23rd, 2009
11:07 am
PS Bugman…I’ll stop saying ‘The playoffs are a crapshoot’…if you’ll STFU altogether.
Herschel Talker
June 23rd, 2009
11:12 am
MB – I don’t think you should focus on Leibrandt. That was no way even close to his most egregious bonehead moves. If you want a list, I’ll give you one, but that one wouldn’t even be on there. Can we focus on real bonehead moves, please? For starters, how about starting Danny Bautista in game 6 against the Padres in 1998? That’s just one of many.
BugKiller
June 23rd, 2009
11:16 am
It all comes down to this, as illustrated by others:
The Cox Apologists give him all of the credit for winning 14 straight (largely worthless) division titles.
The Cox Apologists give him the credit for winning the one World Series.
The Cox Apologists blame the players for 13 Octobers ending in ignominy.
Notice the hypocritical inconsistency there?
Also, notice the complete lack of logic?
Okay, here it goes:
In regular season AND post season football, coaching is more important than talent than in any other sport.
Why? Because in the regular season, there are only 16 games, and in the post season of ANY sport, managing trumps talent.
i.e. bad coaching can sink a talented team, etc.
In baseball, managing (coaching) is LEAST important during the regular season, and TALENT is most important.
Why?
Because there are 162 games. The horrible tactical abilities of the manager are smoothed out due to the fact that the season is so long, as long as the team wins more series than it loses, which is based largely on the talent assembled for the team, then the team will either win it’s division or win the Wild Card.
In baseball, the most talented teams OVERWHELMINGLY make the playoffs.
In football, the best coached teams OVERWHELMINGLY make the playoffs.
In football, sometimes the most talented team is done-in by terrible coaching (Dallas, anyone?) during the regular season, and so, don’t make the playoffs.
Are you people finally seeing where this is going?
Okay, so in baseball, after the talented team makes it to the post season, NOW and only now, does the manager become truly important.
How they set up their pitching rotation.
How they set up their line up and bench.
How they approach the short series where they MUST manager like there is no tomorrow, how they MUST take some gambles. Where they MUST play their hot bats.
Again… the Braves had the best pitcher in post season history. But Bobby Cox, going off of regular season results and not post season history, largely started Maddux and Glavine over John Smoltz every year but 1996.
Why? Why would you not pitch the best pitcher in post season history over two guys who are .500 post season pitchers at best just because one of those guys won the Cy Young that year?
Again… this is Einstein’s definition of insanity coming in to play.
Okay.
The San Diego Padres PROVED that Ryan Klesko could hit lefties.
Manny Ramirez is TERRIBLE defensive left fielder.
So why in the hell was Bobby Cox willing to sit his best home run threat in a stupid platoon for some light-hitting defensive specialist all of those years?
The Braves in the 1990’s has speed.
So why was Bobby Cox so unwilling to hit and run, to bunt players over, to CREATE runs?
You know why Joe Torre and Tito Francona have won 6 World Series between them?
Because they use(d) National League management techniques (small ball) in the American League.
Bobby Cox uses American League managerment techniques (wait for the 3-run homer) with a National League team.
Bobby Cox refused to use his pitchers and bench wisely.
How many Octobers did Andruw Jones make the last out, at home, in the bottom of the ninth, in a win or go home game, with a better hitter (like Julio Franco) sitting on the bench?
Bobby Cox, and his horrible decisions in October, doomed some of the most talented teams every put together by one of baseball’s best GM (and himself, when he was GM) because he refused to manager October with any sense of urgency and with any intelligence.
In the regular season, the idiocy of Bobby Cox was covered up by his great talent.
In the post season, his idiocy was laid bare for all to see when his talented baseball team played against almost equal talent and a smarter manager.
The cream rises to the top.
Bobby Cox is not cream.
Are you getting it now? Do you understand?
In short series, a talented team can be brought down by a terrible manager.
i.e, Bobby Cox and the Braves.
In a short series, a less talented team can beat a more talented team if they have a competent manager.
i.e. Jim Kelly and the 1991 Twins, Jim Fregosi and the 1993 Phillies, Joe Torre and the 1996 Yankees, Jim Leyland and the 1997 Marlins, Bruce Bochy and the 1998 Padres, Tony LaRussa and the 2000 Cardinals, Dusty Baker and the 2002 Giants, Dusty Baker and the 2003 Chicago Cubs, and Phil Garner and the Houston Astros 2004 and 2005.
Every single one of those teams were LESS talented than the Braves teams they faced. Maybe the Marlins in 1997 were equally talented, but they’d be the only ones.
The Braves only legitimately lost a post season series to a more talented team in 1992 (Blue Jays), 1999 (Yankees), and 2001 (Diamond Backs).
That’s it.
Mark Bradley, why when discussing Bobby Cox do you REFUSE to mention the fact that in the vast majority of those 13 post season final losses, did Cox lead his team to a loss against INFERIOR talent to the talent on his own team?
People… STOP blaming the players.
There is a PATTERN of incompetence that cannot be ignored.
Why were so many people here for years willing to believe Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens did steriods based on the PATTERNS… yet refuse to see the same PROOF in the patterns surrounding Bobby Cox?
You people are ALL hypocrites.
Or unbelievably stupid.
Larry
June 23rd, 2009
11:18 am
Okay, boys, I want to deviate a little from the infamous decisions by Cox over the years that no one could argue were often wrong, bad luck or not.
More than this, my primary dislike of Bobby Cox is actually not his decisions but his style of baseball. Specifically, Bobby Cox WAITS for things to happen versus MAKES things happen.
From 1991 through about 1995 the Braves were the model in baseball and their concept was “great starting pitching and defense wins the regular season and once the playoffs starts anything can happen.” Of course they finally got it all in 1995. However, starting in 1996, the New Yorks Yankees added an additional element to great pitching and defense: situational, contact hitting and overall team speed. In fact, the Yankees did not really have a 40-50 home run type of guy from 1996 though 2000 and they won 4 World Series during this time with pitching, defense and situational, contact hitters–you know, the kind of hitters that make a difference in a must win game when both teams are sporting great pitchers? Also, since moving away from this model in the last 6-8 years and adding a bunch of long ball hackers they haven’t won it have they?
My point is that Bobby Cox continues with the same strategy and player selection with streaky, hot or cold, Free swinging hacks that when they’re cold they can score 8-10 runs 2-3 games in a row; but, when they’re not, they can go several games with fews runs. Sound familiar?
Bottom line is I cannot stand to go to a game and watch Bobby Cox baseball anymore. It is easily the most boring and predictable thing in the world and I can just absolutely predict that Jeff Francoeur, Kelly Johnson or Matt Diaz will swing at pitches over their heads, in the dirt, or a foot outside the next several game.
Give me a team like the Marlins–yes Marlins this year–the Red Sox, anyone who couples speed, situational, contact hitters, bunters, etc., and you can have this style of baseball that Cox employs year after year that always found the inevitable ability to go cold in the post season at the worst possible moment–like games 4,5 6 of the 1996 World Series, and games 1-4 of the 1999 World Series.
I just don’t like Bobby Cox baseball!
Landslide
June 23rd, 2009
11:23 am
In an election, 60/40 is a landslide.
I just don’t understand how people can give Bobby all the credit when the Braves were winning yet are so eager to blame everything and everyone except Bobby when they lose.
Clint Hurdle-Rockies-gone. Went to the World Series 2 years ago.
Willie Randolph-Mets-gone. Made the playoffs since the Braves. Historic meltdown but whose to say a meltdown is worse than a slow death by underachievement year after year.
Joe Torre-gone from Yanks-4 World Championships with the Yanks-Run off from NY. Landed on his feet with the Dodgers. Change of scenary perhaps.
Phil Garner-Astros-gone-beat the Braves twice in the playoffs-went to World Series once.
Managers on the hot seat according to the press.
Eric Wedge-Indians-hotseat. Cleveland has been to the playoffs since the Braves.
Jerry Manual- Mets
Joe Girardi- Yanks
Jim Leyland- Detroit is playing better so his job is less tenuous than it was when the season began.
Ron Washington-The same can be said for Washington as Leyland, since the Rangers have played much better this season his job doesn’t seem to be at risk like it was when the season began.
Cecil Cooper- Astros
I could go on and on but the point is that Cox isn’t on the hot seat. Isn’t rumored to be on the hot seat and seems to have a job in Atlanta as long as he wants one.
It seems that the price for the Braves winning one World Series in 1995 was to give Cox a job until he is 90 if he wishes to manage that long.
That price is too high. Cox obviously can’t motivate and produce like he used to. If he were Tom Glavine or John Smoltz, he would be gone based on the fact that he had nothing of value left to offer the Braves.
Just a shame the Braves don’t use the same performance measurements of their management as they do when evaluating what Braves future HOFamers have to offer.
7
June 23rd, 2009
11:26 am
Larry, I believe you won that round. Loved the “I popped a vessel!” and “competing intellectually with unarmed opponent.”
Beware Mark is armed. He has the Media as his weapon.
Larry I believe you won that round but Mark does have a weapon. He has the media to get his opinion across. It worked for Obama, and what did we get… 3 Trillion more in debt plus.
Missing the Braves of the 90's......
June 23rd, 2009
11:26 am
Bobby is a very good manager………I thank him for helping turn the Braves into a good team for the last 15 years or so. He is probably one of the best regular season managers ever.
He is NOT a very good postseason manager, fair at best. I have watched every playoff game in the last 17 years..and I can honestly say we should have won more postseason games and maybe another 2 world series. Too bad you can’t have one manager in the regular season and another in the Post-season!
Bobby thanks for all the great years. You are a class act! After this year hand the baton to another and enjoy retirement. We might be bad some years but when we get to the World Series someday we will actually win it.
Don
June 23rd, 2009
11:33 am
It is absolutely unbelievable that Bobby Cox has never understood and that baseball writers do not understand the absolute necessity of working the count and making the opposing pitcher throw a lot of pitches – if you are to have consistant run production. This enebles your hitters to see what the pitcher has, adjust to him, get better pitches to hit, make him make mistakes, tire him out within innings and for the game, get into their weak middle relief ect. etc. Right now the Braves are next to last in all of baseball in average number of pitches seen per at bat. This is typical Cox and is terrible offensive management. You will never have a acceptable run production as long as you do not stress and demand that your hitters do this. Granted Cox is one of the best at keeping team in good spirits on and even keel etc.; but is a terrible offensive manager and in game manager. After all the way he won 14 divisions was having an All Star Pitching Staff so dominant and far far superior to the other teams that it made overcame his incompetence as an offense manager and made it almost impossible to lose the Division over the 162 game regular season schedule. Even with this Piching, he won only one W.S. How can anyone manage for 20 plus years and not understand the absoulute necessity for working the count and making the opposing pitcher throw a lot of piches.
Mark Bradley
June 23rd, 2009
11:38 am
If I had one Bobby Cox postseason move to second-guess — and truth to tell, I second-guessed in the next day’s AJC — it would be his starting lineup for Game 3 in San Diego in the 1998 NLCS. With the Braves down 0-2 in the series, he went with his right-handed platoon of Bautista, Graffanino and Gerald Williams against Sterling Hitchcock … and, because Greg Maddux pitched, he also used Eddie Perez as his catcher as opposed to Javy Lopez. (The headline on the MB column in the Sunday AJC: “Let’s start with that lineup …”)
Javy eventually came to bat in that game — against Trevor Hoffman with the bases loaded and two out in the eighth. (This was at the height of the “Hell’s Bells” Hoffman frenzy.) Hoffman struck him out. The Braves lost to go down 0-3 in the series. They won Games 4 and 5 but were eliminated in Game 6. (Hitchcock against the righty platoon again, although Maddux didn’t pitch so Eddie didn’t catch.)
One final aside: After the Braves won Game 4, someone tugged on my sleeve in the clubhouse — Eddie Perez. He’d read the Game 3 column and wasn’t happy with me. “You don’t think I do a good job catching Maddux?” he asked. I said I thought he did, but down 0-2 I thought the Braves missed Javy’s bat. (Even though Eddie had two hits in Game 3.)
I hated that Eddie was upset because he’s a great guy. And I was tickled when, one year later, Eddie Perez was named MVP of the NLCS against the Mets.
Homer
June 23rd, 2009
11:39 am
FIRE BRADLEY!!!
Larry
June 23rd, 2009
11:39 am
Brian,
While Nagy, Martinez and Hershiser may have led the team in the regular season, both Hershiser and Martinez were like 40+ year old pitchers well past their prime. And, I stand behind my statement the Indians had possibly the weakest World Series Starting Pitching in the past 20-25 seasons.
coach joe
June 23rd, 2009
11:44 am
GOOD STUFF. GREAT DISCUSSIION.
BOBBY DOESN’T HIT OR THROW. NOUGH SAID
GO LSU. TIGER BAIT
Braves73
June 23rd, 2009
11:45 am
You took the words out of my mouth…literally! As I stated earlier (which you further elaborated), that was a Bobby classic…truly one for the ages.