Hawks fans, don’t expect the moon and stars at No. 19
The 19th player taken in the 2008 NBA draft was J.J. Hickson. If you’ve heard of him, it’s doubtless because he played at Wheeler High in Marietta and spent a season at North Carolina State. It isn’t because he did much of anything as a professional rookie.
Hickson was the 11th man on the Cleveland Cavaliers, who won more regular-season games than any other. Come the playoffs, Hickson got to sit and cheer as LeBron James and the other nine guys did their work. This isn’t to derogate Hickson, who’s 20 and who could yet develop into a fine pro. This is to offer a sobering glimpse of NBA reality.
The Hawks hold the 19th pick in Round 1, and if they find someone capable of offering immediate assistance that late they’ll consider themselves outrageously fortunate. The 19th player drafted in 2007 was Javaris Crittenton of Georgia Tech, who’s already on his third NBA team and who has started a total of 10 games. The 19th player taken in 2006 was the legendary Quincy Douby, who hasn’t yet graced a starting lineup.
Being a pragmatist, Rick Sund knows all this. Being curious, the Hawks’ general manager went back over the past six drafts to see if the guys drafted 18th, 19th and 20th had made much of a splash. What he found: In that 18-man sample, only one — J.R. Smith, drafted by the Hornets in 2004 — was a double-figure scorer as a rookie. (And then only just, at 10.3.)
“You’re going to get a good player [at 19 or thereabouts],” Sund said Monday, but you have to be patient. The post-lottery guys aren’t brand names, aren’t LeBrons or the D-Wades. They’re the slow growers. If you’re lucky, they’re the Hakim Warricks.
Examples: David West [No. 18 to New Orleans in 2003] is now an All-Star, but he averaged 3.9 points as a rookie. Orlando’s Jameer Nelson [No. 20 in 2004] just made the All-Star team, and he averaged 8.7 points as a rookie.
If the Hawks’ No. 1 pick cracks the eight-man rotation next season, that will be a victory. If he winds up starting, that will mean Sund has failed on the second half of his summer mission — to hold together a core that includes four free agents among its top eight.
Loading ...“If [the draftee] makes the rotation, that will mean he’s really good,” Sund said. “He’ll have beaten out someone on a 47-win club … or it will mean we didn’t get all our free agents.
You’ll be shocked to learn Sund, who hasn’t yet made a pick as Hawks GM, won’t declare a target, or even a targeted position. He says they’re looking at guards, yes, but also at forwards and centers. “Let’s say Zaza [Pachulia] doesn’t re-sign with us and Al Horford gets hurt next year,” Sund said. “In hindsight, I’ll be wishing I’d drafted a center.”
The guess here is that the Hawks will take a point guard — Eric Maynor of VCU or Ty Lawson of North Carolina — but in no way should the 19th pick be viewed as a savior. Acie Law was picked 11th in 2007, and whatever happened to him?
This first-round pick is a key to the Hawks’ future, but not the immediate future. “You have to look at it as short term against long term,” Sund said. Long term, Maynor or Lawson might look mighty nice in red, white and blue. Short term, let’s just hope for somebody who can play.
For further reading: Here was the Monday morning all-NBA draft edition of Bradley’s Buzz. You should know NBAdraft.net has since updated its mock again and has Jeff Teague of Wake Forest going to the Hawks at No. 19. For those keeping score, that’s three different guards — Wayne Ellington of North Carolina, Jrue Holiday of UCLA and now Teague — in 24 hours.
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97 comments Add your comment
Dr. Warren
June 22nd, 2009
4:26 pm
Aren’t the Hawks more blue and white, now? (With a touch of red).
Let’s package Acie and the rights to Childress for a lottery pick…
LEA
June 22nd, 2009
4:35 pm
Why are we looking at forwards, when we have 40 of them on our team already??? Rick Sund is just another Billy Knight, his record in Seattle sucks just as much as Billy does.. I wouldnt’ be surprised if we picked a player, we have never heard of lol..
JMar
June 22nd, 2009
4:40 pm
If you’re not in the top 5 picks of the draft, you’re not going to start for Woodson. If you’re not in the top 10, you’re probably not good enough to be a sub.
JSS
June 22nd, 2009
4:51 pm
Sorry to repost but…
Mr. Bradley, Any news on Garret Siler, the 6-11 305 kid who was so impressive in last year’s D-II Elite 8? Could the Hawks take a flier on him in Rd 2… I know he went to the Portsmouth Camp…
Mac
June 22nd, 2009
4:57 pm
Yeah, it’s funny to read people mentioning players the Hawks can get in the second round. If there’s draft that should be one round, it’s the NBA draft.
gcsu12
June 22nd, 2009
5:02 pm
I like Maynor and Lawson, but what if Ellington is available? He would be the best available player at 19 and has the best chance out of anyone left on the board to help the Hawks with scoring next year.
Admiral Benbow
June 22nd, 2009
5:03 pm
I figure the Hawks will draft another 6′6″ to 6′8″ small forward/power forward who isn’t really either one. Why change the status quo when just getting to the playoffs is as good to your ownership as winning a ring is to other clubs? Here comes another undersized 4 or a 3 who can’t dribble or shoot outside of 12 feet.
The Grinch
June 22nd, 2009
5:08 pm
We’ve already got a PG. We need a coach who will play him.
O'Brien
June 22nd, 2009
5:13 pm
Mark,
I think we will draft a guard too. We dont know if Bibby or Flip will resign, and dont think Sund and Woody are sold on Acie. Therefore, I think they take a PG.
Nobody is expecting an all star at 19. We just want a guy who will get a chance (and will be able) to contribute. Solo was picked in the second round, and whenever he’s gotten PT, he’s contributed. Paul Milsap was picked in the second round. Josh was picked 17. Players are out there.
The key here is talent evaluation, and luck. The Hawks need to be great evaluators of talent (and I’m not sure if they are good at that). Lest we forget, Woody didnt like Chris Paul or Deron Williams, and Sund picked Sene, Swift and Petro. And the Hawks also need to get lucky.
Mark Bradley
June 22nd, 2009
5:40 pm
JSS, here’s NBAdraft.net’s report on Garrett Siler. Apparently he’s big but not mobile and doesn’t have an offensive game “outside 5 feet.”
For what it’s worth, NBAdraft.net doesn’t having him going in Round 1 or 2.
Sorry to be distant this afternoon, but the young basketball genius Elizabeth Bradley and I went downtown to interview Rick Sund. She asked all the good questions. Rick seemed to like her. Nobody likes me.
.
Mark Bradley
June 22nd, 2009
5:43 pm
The reason I think the Hawks will draft a point guard is I think they’re looking for cover if Bibby leaves and a young guy to groom if he stays. But then Flip Murray enters the equation. If the Hawks re-sign him, too — and as I’ve said, Sund loves Flip — does Murray take the minutes away from the rookie point guard the same way he took minutes from Law?
JSS
June 22nd, 2009
5:56 pm
Thanks Mr. Bradley, If he goes undrafted, Rick Sund run, don’t walk and sign him… Once the hectic part goes away, go to the NCAA site and watch him in the 2008 D2 title game, he ’s only been playing 5 years, and he was plenty mobile… He’s no Bryant Reeves or Kevin Duckworth… Enjoy the little one
Mark Bradley
June 22nd, 2009
6:09 pm
That could happen, JSS. The Hawks have no great love for Randolph Morris, and Zaza Pachulia could leave just as easily — perhaps more easily — than he stays. And I don’t think there’s a center to be found at No. 19 or No. 49.
JM
June 22nd, 2009
6:17 pm
JSS, I’m a student at Augusta State and have watched every one of Siler’s games the last couple of years. He’s a physical beast that didn’t even start playing basketball until his senior year of high school. He came to college at about 370 pounds and redshirted his first year to get in shape. Conditioning remains his biggest issue, but from what I hear he’s gotten his weight down to about 280. He’s the all-time leader in field goal percentage at any level in college basketball and a big-time shot blocker. The downside, as Bradley said, is that he has very little offensive game outside the basket, but if he continues to improve his conditioning he’s an intriguing prospect at the end of the draft. He’s been slipping in and out of the mocks I’ve seen.
Ted Striker
June 22nd, 2009
6:23 pm
Does anyone else think the Sixers are having second thoughts? The Sixers could have gone after Josh Smith in free agency. Instead they hitched their wagon to Elton Brand. Brand — who’s missed 130 games over the last two seasons — is owed $65 million over the next 4 years. (And folks thought that Paul Hewitt contract was an anvil around the neck in deep water). What if the Sixers had gone after Smith…and THEN Childress had bolted for mad money in Greece? The Hawks would be drafting a little higher than #19.
Mac: Good point and oddly true. There seem to be very few Tom Brady/Kurt Warner/James Harrison types in the NFL. Any theorems as to why the NFL has so many undetected gems and the NBA has so few?
Mark: Hello, my friend. It’s been several days since I’ve seen any regrets for not drafting Ziggy Hood. Have you lost that loving feeling?
Okay, I have to go. Time to book a flight to Jax for the 2009 UGA beatdown of the previously-mighty Gators.
Mark Bradley
June 22nd, 2009
6:36 pm
Ted, at the time Brand seemed a big deal. Hasn’t worked out yet, but it might still. And the Hawks, having already lost one Josh, were almost certainly going to match any reasonable offer for J. Smith. (Brand was unrestricted — no matching possible.)
As for Ellington … I can’t tell you what Sund and the Hawks are going to do, but I can tell you they’ve been impressed by Ellington, Lawson and Hansbrough. Do not discount the latter name as a viable possibility at No. 19. Do not, I say.
Ariose
June 22nd, 2009
6:38 pm
….Patrick Mills????? Best PG in the draft???? Hello????….well he’s right there. Worked over Team USA(olympics) and Steph Curry in the NIT. Dragged his team to the NCAA tourney as a freashman(07-08). Was the vocal/points leader at age 19 on an Austrilan mens national team(Beijing) with guy’s mostly in their 30’s…..and that nobody Bogut……Arguably Australias most Popular player….right now…..how about a whole other country as a fan base……more retail money for the Hawks…..Austraila is a fairly untapped market…..
BHayley
June 22nd, 2009
6:40 pm
I have no confidence in Rick Suck. he can’t draft at all (Sene, Petro, Robert Swift are his latest 3 picks I believe…These 3 guys combined are about as good as Solomon Jones is right now).
Mark Bradley
June 22nd, 2009
6:40 pm
Certainly Peter Moylan would pay for season tickets if the Hawks took Patty Mills.
Ariose
June 22nd, 2009
6:40 pm
…..fastest guard in the draft…..that’s right mark….I said it…
Ariose
June 22nd, 2009
6:41 pm
lol
Mark Bradley
June 22nd, 2009
6:42 pm
I should also report that the Hawks’ draft will be more of a collective effort than it was, say, when Billy Knight essentially did what he pleased. (Ergo, Shelden at No. 5.) Dave Pendergraph, Sund’s assistant, is the big draft man. Sund goes and scouts and will make the final calls, but Pendergraph has done the draft 24-7.
Ariose
June 22nd, 2009
6:43 pm
Mark, That Makes two. Me and peter, courtside lol.
jake
June 22nd, 2009
6:46 pm
They need to take a point guard at 19-lawson or maynor. Then take a guy like Danny Green at 49.
Ariose
June 22nd, 2009
6:47 pm
Mark, hopefully those guys can turn over a new leaf and startb a new draft culture here with the Hawks. Lord knows, we don’t need that decision making that went on in Seattle lol…..aside from Ray Ray, Flip and drafting Ridnour….
Mark Bradley
June 22nd, 2009
6:48 pm
FWIW, Ariose, DraftExpress has Mills going No. 2 in Round 2.
JustaThought
June 22nd, 2009
6:50 pm
Meathead…………dead from the neck up! That what I’m sensing from the Hawks. This organization only have themselves to blame for this “muck and mire” mess that they are in. They have wasted 2 (Sheldon and Chills and it should be 3 if you include AC) high picks on guys they are getting absolutley nothing from and we should have confidence that these “arse” clowns will do what? If they draft “anybody” it won’t matter because at spot 19 he WON’T develope and be buried on the bench. Be ready to be disappointed everybody, if not on Thursday I’ll check back in a year.
Hey Ted! I hear ya about Philly, but guess what……..they still made the playoffs without Brand. I my book they look brighter than the Hawks.
Mark Bradley
June 22nd, 2009
6:52 pm
I like the three big Carolina guys, Jake, but I can’t say I’m a big fan of Danny Green’s.
There’s a chance Jodie Meeks could be available when the Hawks go at No. 49. Even if he is, I don’t think they’d take him.
Ariose
June 22nd, 2009
6:54 pm
Well, at least I can sleep knowing he’s getting a little love from the scouts. He’s going to be a bigtime sleeper IMHO.
Honestly, though. I want Ellington in Rd.1 and Danny Green in Rd.2. We ALL remeber what happend when marvin went doen in the playoffs….ugh. LBJ had a feild-day. And JJ almost got seriously injutred w/that ankle. You can never have too many backups/insurance policies. Besides the Dann/Wayne combo can give JJ some relife during the long 82-game season.
They come from a good pedigree so I have no doubt they will win woodson over for PT……and we must bring back Flip…..regardless of what Bibby does. Flip IS the bench lol.
JM
June 22nd, 2009
6:55 pm
I’d love to see us take Meeks if he’s available at 49. He’s a natural scorer who would provide insurance if Flip leaves.
I don’t understand what the knock is on Meeks. He may not have the upside of some other guys in the Draft, but he’s pretty close to a finished product.
Tony from Stone Mountain
June 22nd, 2009
6:57 pm
If everyone thinks that Marvin Williams is an average small forward, why would any other team try to outbid the Hawks for his services?
jake
June 22nd, 2009
7:01 pm
Who would be a pick at 49 who has a good chance to make the team,and contribute to the team later on: Toney Douglas, Jack McClinton, A.J. Price, or Paul Harris. Any good ideas for 49?
Tony from Stone Mountain
June 22nd, 2009
7:03 pm
Sorry for the off topic post, but it had been bugging me.
ccrider
June 22nd, 2009
7:13 pm
Mark: I want to go on the record that the Hawks should take Ellington at No. 19 and Move into the 20 to 25 range of the first round and pick Toney Douglas. Douglas is going to make a lot of GM’s look myoptic: He shoots, defends and could be a scoring point guard that defends the opposite point guard to distraction.
Billy
June 22nd, 2009
8:25 pm
Maybe the Hawks can make a great pick late in the 1st round. They’ve done very little (other than Horford) at the top of the 1st round.
Clint
June 22nd, 2009
8:28 pm
Hey Mark,
I believe that the Hawks should trade this years first round draft pick and second round pick to move further back in the first round to select Toney Douglas and to aquire a first rounder next year from whomever makes the trade with us. Toney gives immediate floor leadership and instant scoring off the bench. This would give us the chance next year to trade both first round picks to move up and select a player that can make a difference. I just don’t see a player around the 19 that would give us the value we need without making this trade. If the Hawks can stay competitive this upcoming year, then hopefully some big name free agents next year will want to play here.
Your thoughts?
Sautee
June 22nd, 2009
8:39 pm
Jake,
How about Goran Suton from Michigan St.? (sorry Sekou, if you’re reading Mark’s blog!)
Mark Bradley
June 22nd, 2009
8:46 pm
Toney Douglas is an intriguing option. I thought he was a really good college player who could do almost everything. But he’s got that tweener size that scares off a lot of pro execs. Is he a PG? Is he a SG? The correct answer, I believe, is that he’s just an old-fashioned guard. Trading down for him wouldn’t be the worst draft move this franchise has ever made.
And Goran Suton doesn’t do much for me, I’m afraid. He’s a big man who shoots jumpers. If I’m taking a big man, it’s one who plays big.
reedeak
June 22nd, 2009
8:52 pm
What about Patrick Beverly as a 49th pick or even a free agent signing if he doesn’t get drafted?
Mark Bradley
June 22nd, 2009
8:56 pm
According to ESPN.com, Beverley has had some impressive camps and seems a lock to get drafted — maybe in Round 1.
A very special Bradley's Buzz: The all-NBA draft edition! | Mark Bradley
June 22nd, 2009
8:59 pm
[...] For further reading: Here’s a later post containing the fruits, such as they were, of my Monday interview with Hawks GM Rick Sund. [...]
macky
June 22nd, 2009
9:01 pm
Ty Lawson can be a star in Atlanta IMO. This guy is the real deal.
Bangkapi Ajarn
June 22nd, 2009
9:02 pm
I started this process thinking that Mullins would be best, you can’t teach big. Then, I was drawn into the discussions regarding a point guard, but an over-hyped 6th or 7th best PG doesn’t seem to be much of a step up when trying to get passed the talent gap that was so obvious in the 2nd round of the playoffs, especially when you have resources avalable that can do the job.
I am now leaning, from what I have been reading, Hansbrough. He would be an upgrade in that spot off the bench, AND, looking at the process that may be in place within the Hawks org on who to draft, he may be a safe consensus pick for the braintrust based on his impression in his workout (personal demeanor, work ethic, motor, smarts, pedigreed program, loyalty, etc.). Mullins second choice if Hansborugh is gone (unlikely based on several mocks I visited) as insurance if they can’t sign Bibby and Zaza both.
Forgetting what WE think would be the best pick IF we were making the selection, and recognizing the realities of the process (free agency AFTER the draft), what does the group think a consensus pick from Sund, Woodson, and Pendergraph be at 19?
jdewayneatl
June 22nd, 2009
9:03 pm
Honestly I am ready for the draft, but I’m not looking for whoever is drafted at 19 to be an instant hit. The only reason I am looking forward to the draft is because this will show what direction the Hawks are headed towards in free agency and possibly trades. Playoff teams don’t usually improve with their draft picks. Playoff teams, especially elite playoff teams, draft guys to be role players at best their first season and develop their talents while continuing to win.
The Hawks are now a Playoff team and to expect anything less would be a step back. Tyler Hansbrough is the best player in the draft that could feel a role player position immediately. He is energy, tenacity, and has great basketball instincts. Wayne Ellington would be next with his sharp shooting and scoring ability. Finding a playmaker that can make an instant impact at 19 is not gonna happen.
I have to be honest, I have drunk the Mock Draft kool-aid. Most mock drafts and blogs say that the Hawks should take the best available pg (Teague, Lawson, or Maynor) and I believed it. I do think that a decent pg at 19 wouldn’t be a failure but for a Playoff team adding a player that can be successful with a specific and not overbearing role would help this team more now and in the long run.
Playoff teams get better via free agency and/or trades. (The Hawks had no draft picks in 2008 but improved because of key free agent additions. The Hawks made the playoffs for the first time in a decade in 2008 because of a key mid-season trade)
sidslid
June 22nd, 2009
9:06 pm
Arias,
You are reading box scores. Curry was by far best player onfloor in the NIT matchup. Mills just had a better supporting cast and if I am not mistaken Curry went a wee bit deeper (Elite
in his tournament run.
Astro Joe
June 22nd, 2009
9:09 pm
When playing alongside Joe, the PG just needs to catch and shoot and stop dribble penetration… sounds like Douglas to me.
Did Pendergraph work with Sund during the drafting of the 3 Seattle failures? None of those first round picks has been as good as Solomon Jones. I’m glad you AJC guys are enjoying a GM who actually talks to the media… but at some point, you may want to ask the basketball professor what “phase” he was in when he drafted Swift, Petro and Sene in consecutive years. (You know, how he loves to wax poetic about the various phases on a player’s maturation, WTF phase was he in when he came up with those 3 winners?)
Mark Bradley
June 22nd, 2009
9:15 pm
As far as I’m concerned, what happened in Seattle stays in Seattle.
Astro Joe
June 22nd, 2009
9:22 pm
Mark, except when Robert “Second-Coming of John Edwards” Swift becomes an early free agent acquisition of Dr. Sund (NBA PhD).
Ted Striker
June 22nd, 2009
9:25 pm
Mark — You have the monopoly on the phrase “what happened in Seattle stays in Seattle.”
I kinda like it. That said, don’t make any plans for early retirement for royalties from said literary inspiration.
Mark Bradley
June 22nd, 2009
9:31 pm
Actually, I think Dr. Frasier Crane said it first. Or perhaps Dr. Niles Crane. Or Roz. Always liked Roz, I did.
gdg73
June 22nd, 2009
9:32 pm
I say draft Toney Douglas. He brings scoring and defense to the guard position. He might also make Flip Murray expendable (even though I like Flip). I also think the team should try to acquire a center via free agency. I would go after Gortat in Orlando (bye bye Zaza). Rafer Alston would also be a nice, inexpensive PG option. I would let Bibby walk and go with Alston, Douglas, and Acie (still can’t give up on him) as our Point Guards/Combo Guards.
jdewayneatl
June 22nd, 2009
9:34 pm
The Hawks offseason starts with the draft but is only setup for the biggest additions and improvement to come in free agency and trades.
If the Hawks do go with a pg at 19, then that would signal the end of the Acie Law era as the Hawks future pg.
If the Hawks select any other position then that tells us that Acie Law still may have a future in Atlanta and that the organization has not given up on him. That also means that the Hawks are betting on resigning Mike Bibby (which I think the team should let go elsewhere) or signing another top free agent pg (Raymond Felton is my guy). With great cap room, the Hawks could lure Raymond Felton or Ramon Sessions. This would be better than drafting a pg because these players have the same if not more potential as any pg that may fall to the Hawks at 19 and they have NBA experience. That means that they have proven themselves to be NBA ready and would be an instant impact.
The Hawks frontline will most definitely be upgraded via free agency or trades. I stand firm on the belief that if Marvin Williams stays in Atlanta that the Hawks starting frontline will be set for years. That means that bench help for Zaza (he should be the Hawks first priority for solidifying a solid front court rotation). Since the Clipper’s landed the #1 pick in the draft and made it known that they would be picking Blake Griffin, I’ve said that the Hawks should trade for Marcus Camby. Zaza and Camby backing up Al and Josh would make for a very solid frontline. This is also reason why I am favoring drafting Tyler Hansbrough at 19 if he’s available. Hansbrough won’t be under the same expectations as Sheldon Williams (who many would compare Hansbrough to if drafted ahead of say Teague, Lawson or Maynor). Hansbrough would be drafted to fill a role and add depth to the frontline.
Big Ray
June 22nd, 2009
9:34 pm
Mark,
Nice follow-up. I was looking forward to it. I’m thinking “guard” as well in this draft, and I’m fine with guys like Lawson or Ellington. Considering that two of our top three (I could argue for all intents and purposes, our ONLY three) guards are free agents, with the third one due up after next season, drafting a guard is probably the smarter way to go when planning to recoup, if any losses in free agency are suffered.
We could lose Zaza, and he is important, but we may also be able to swing a replacement in free agency, or in trade. And that’s one guy to replace, not two.
To be more specific for those who don’t follow, we could end up with just JJ in the backcourt, technically. I say that because Law is anything but a part of the rotation, and Mario and Gardner are also-rans. Speedy isn’t part of the scene, and is ready to go elsewhere. So drafting a guard, or hell…two guards, one in each round, is not a bad way to go.
However, one must always weigh such concerns against the always-possible drop of a certain prospect that you didn’t expect to get a shot at. My pick for that is still BJ Mullens. No way do I see Sund, Pendergraft, or anyone else Hawks related passing on him if he drops to us. Just sayin’. Hansbrough is a bit of a different story. He’s going to be a contributor (and the Sheldon Williams comments just need to stop..not remotely the same type of player) for somebody. But if he doesn’t help fill the biggest need for our team depth-wise, be it in the event of an injury or otherwise, then he’s not the right pick.
For instance, if Horford gets injured, who do you go to? Hansbrough? Um, no. He’ll help, but he’ll also be overwhelmed. The same could be said of Mullens, but he has more room to grow than Hansbrough does, and will benefit from the experience more. That, and he’s a true 7-footer who will take up more space.
On the flip side, we’re talking about outright losing guards who average big minutes for our team. Hard to replace, though I’m sure Sund and his crew have some ideas (trading for Jack or Sessions, or making offers to either). In fact, I’d do both. That way you have a young vet who can play, but has a rookie in their pushing him, and they both get better that way. It’s a win-win situation for a team.
Of course, how Flip plays into this is the big question that you already brought up. Here’s my take: make Woody play the man off the ball, where he belongs. He’s simply better that way, as he is NOT a pg, and ball movement tends to come to a screeching halt when he is made to play that position. He’s an older version of a poor man’s Ben Gordon. You don’t see anybody trying to make Ben run the point, do ya? Okay, the Bulls tried it once, but found out really quickly that this just kills his game, and nearly nullifies his effect.
That’s my answer on what to do with Flip. Run a real pg next to him, and let him do what he does best.
Big Ray
June 22nd, 2009
9:47 pm
You know, it’s funny. We’re willing to give Billy Knight a pass because he brought us such a talented bunch of fellas, who nearly all happen to be forwards. Couldn’t do crap with ‘em until we managed to get one decent veteran pg on the downslope of his game.
And some of us are as quick to defend Billy as we are Woody, citing such speculative reasons as his bosses, the owners, might have had something to do with who he picked.
But we’re willing to assume that Sund just has a major fetish for big men. Maybe he drafted one big man after another because Seattle really needed a freakin’ center. Maybe HIS boss or bosses insisted on it. Do we know this isn’t the case for certain? Remember, owners can be crazy. I mean, our owners didn’t let the GM fire the coach. Seattles’s owner(s) took the team away from the city and screwed everybody.
Just sayin’…
I’m not going to endorse Sund while we have yet to see what he does in the draft for this organization.
Hell, trying to get your ballclub a true big man year after year can’t be any worse (or as bad) as burning one pick (and lottery ones at that) on one forward after another, despite a decent stockpile already, all while ignoring the other positions of need (like point guard), and trying to force your ONLY scoring option to be a pg.
I laugh like hell when people say CP3 won’t be successful because he is the pg, and also has to have his hands on the ball the most, thereby killing off what the rest of his team can do. Well, CP3 has done more with less talent than our star pupil JJ has done with MORE talent, I’ll say that much.
Yet here we are, still acting like he’s the pg, giving him the ball nearly every single time, and watching him pound it for 15 seconds before coming close to a decision, while the rest of the team is mesmerized by his tricky dribble.
Adding a “catch and shoot” pg sounds nice, until you realize that what you really have is a small SG, while your true SG is still playing PG. Well, it works just fine if your SG is MJ, Kobe, or somebody of that ilk, and they have a very good sidekick, most likely a SF or PF.
Well guess what. That ain’t our formula by a long mile, and to do so is to continue to waste and misuse our frontcourt talent. Guess that’s what we’ll keep doing, if we think like Woody does. Ignorance, bliss, and mediocrity must all be from the same mixing bowl.
Okay, rant OFF…
jdewayneatl
June 22nd, 2009
9:49 pm
Mark,
How do you think a frontline rotation of Al, Josh, Zaza, and Camby (with splashes of Hansbrough and Solomon Jones) would stack up against the rest of the league?
UcantCLA
June 22nd, 2009
9:49 pm
As a guy who watched every UCLA game last year I can tell u that Jrue Holliday is the most overrated prosepect I have seen in years. He’s weak, afraid of contact, average ball handling skills, medicore jumper and cried about coming off the bench so much that he left school earlier. He’s so classless that a reporter had to tell Ben Howland the Jrue had announced that he was going rather than Jrue actully telling the head coach himself.
The Hawks would be alot better off going after Darren Collison who is clutch(been to 3 of the last 4 final 4’s), plays strong D, quick and has range with his 3 pointer. DC also lead the nation shoting 95% from the line.
Mark Bradley
June 22nd, 2009
9:58 pm
Thanks for the report, UCLA. I watched the Bruins, too, and I never saw what the fuss was about Holiday.
As for the front line of Al, Josh, Zaza and Camby … I wouldn’t much like it because there’s not a shooter at small forward. It’s all 4’s and 5’s.
I mean, do you really want Smoove to operate farther from the basket?
Mark Bradley
June 22nd, 2009
10:02 pm
Big Ray, that’s why I’m thinking guard, too. At some point (no pun intended) the Hawks are going to have to replace Bibby even if they re-sign him.
And JDwayneAtl, I’d say there’s a chance Raymond Felton could end up here. He obviously has no future in Charlotte with Augustin there, and he’s young enough to still have a future.
jdewayneatl
June 22nd, 2009
10:05 pm
Big Ray,
No pick at 19 will be any better than another immediately. I am leaning towards Hansbrough for reasons of adding a player who could play quality minutes with a specific role. I also like Ellington too for the same reasons. But either way the Hawks decide to go, both the frontline and back court will be upgraded via free agency.
Some guards that could be added in the mix are:
Raymond Felton, Ramon Sessions, Jarrett Jack, Shannon Brown, Keith Bogans, Demond Mason, Ronnie Price, Dauntay Jones…
So there are numerous options to add guard help for Joe and Flip (should be a priority to resign). Not to mention Mo Evans can play some 2 and maybe Acie Law comes on next season.
jdewayneatl
June 22nd, 2009
10:17 pm
Mark,
No I don’t want Smoove to operate far from the basket at all lol. Josh should play the 4 at all times. Those pieces would be interchangeable for the 4 and 5 spots. Camby can play the 4 or 5 and so can Horford.
The 3 spot would be held down by Williams and Mo Evans. JJ could also play at the 3 spot. So SF wasn’t an issue. It was more of having quality available big guys to fight down low.
BHayley
June 22nd, 2009
10:20 pm
I don’t think Sund has learned how to draft.
His 30 years of NBA experience are blown out of proportion. He has had about 3 good years since 1985 in terms of winning. He has only reached a conference finals once (in 30 years).
Swift, Sene, and Petro are all WORSE basketball players than Othello Hunter.
Please read that again, everybody: Othello Hunter (the 14th man who played about 8 games this year in trash minutes) is BETTER than 3 FIRST ROUNDERS (2 of which were LOTTERY PICKS) that Sund has picked.
Shelden Williams is BETTER than those 3 players Sund drafted. Shelden actually had an O.K. rookie season for us.
LOL I hope I see some results on draft night
diego
June 22nd, 2009
10:21 pm
I still have my fingers crossed for a trade to Portland for their backup point guard. I’d rather give him a shot than one of these over-hyped college/international PGs in the draft.
With Memphis slotted to draft the UConn C any chances we could work out a trade for Marc Gasol? He’s not as good as his brother Pau but we don’t need a superstar we just need a solid C who can run the court and play great D. Then we can re-sign ZaZa and have him come off the bench.
Astro Joe
June 22nd, 2009
10:23 pm
Ray, considering that Joe plays a ton of minutes and seemingly keeps the ball for the majority of every possession (according to your rant), it is a real miracle that the Hawks have 6 guys scoring in double figures and an above average offense? Thank goodness Mr. Smith delivered us to a 4th seed and 47 wins.
Mark Bradley
June 22nd, 2009
10:29 pm
A sign-and-trade with Marvin Williams for Marc Gasol? That could happen. But the Hawks wouldn’t re-sign Zaza — I’m just guessing — if that happened. They’d go look for another small forward.
Perez Hilton
June 22nd, 2009
11:54 pm
Go Hawks! My face hurts…
RealSquawk
June 23rd, 2009
12:07 am
Mark. thanks for the outlook
i did the same thing trying to look at some light down the end of the tunnel of what is the 19th pick, but I was looking more towards development into what they are today. There is some hope there of finding maybe a future starter or a very decent role player.
Personally I thought I read that Woody was a big fan of Sheldon Williams and that he supported. Am I wrong in that did I just conjure that up to add to the fire Woody sentiment I hold?
RealSquawk
June 23rd, 2009
12:17 am
props to Bhahley for calling out SHELDONS ROOKIE SEASON AT LEAST THE FIRST HALF.
he brought the right type of energy and toughness when needed at the position so I wish people wouldn’t hate on him too bad. it actually looked like an okay pic when all of our players went down with injuries and he stepped in and picked up some slack. that being said. I would much rather like to say hello to the brandon roy era and good bye to joe johnson era. Instead i have to go into this next season wondering what in the world is going to happen in 2010 its a lose–lose really i think.
Kevin M
June 23rd, 2009
12:40 am
Originally, I bought into the thought of taking Lawson and hoped he would fall to 19. Well, if you take any of the PGs left, you are taking what is considered to be the 6th or 7th PG in this draft. That doesn’t bode well for him being an impact pick.
My $$ would go to Ellington. I see him being a sure fire shooter that this team needs off the bench to go with Flip. That would give us the firepower we need and hopefully give us a fresher JJ for the playoffs next year.
Strange that a 47 win team has so many needs, huh? Not enough posts presence and a bunch of question marks in the backcourt.
Mark Bradley
June 23rd, 2009
12:48 am
As I understand it, Shelden was all Billy’s doing.
Billy
June 23rd, 2009
1:26 am
After moving from the ATL, I kept track of the Hawks out of sentimentality. When they drafted Acie Law, I thought that they had turned the corner. But then I saw how Mike Woodson runs a team and realized that Law would never get a chance. Trust me, if the Hawks trade (or release) Law, he’ll catch on somewhere else and be a star. Too bad that the Hawks have an overrated, mediocre coach who won’t give certain players a shot. Real teams build through the draft and are willing to take some punches for a couple of years. When you’re happy with losing in the first round in 7 (last year) or making it to the second round (this year), you’re never going to improve. Note to self: forget about the Hawks.
Ed
June 23rd, 2009
1:27 am
You can forget the Hawks drafting Lawson if Woody has real clout as he doesn’t like “midgets”. Personally I think Ty will turn out to be a terrific player but not on this team.
Steve
June 23rd, 2009
3:05 am
Hey, Tony from Stone Mountain. To answer your question on Marvin
“If everyone thinks that Marvin Williams is an average small forward, why would any other team try to outbid the Hawks for his services?”
It’s simple. If you can get him away from Mike Woodson as his completely ineffective offensive style, Marvin has more athletic ability and skill than any SF/PF in this draft outside of Griffin. He just needs to develop a take charge attitude, which slips thru every now and then, but he can’t do it on this team, with this coach benching him every time he misses a shot.
For a young guy you can possibly get without spending a pick, and that much upside, there will be a ton of teams interested in signing him away from the Hawks. Outside of Josh Smith I would actually say that Marvin is probably the second most interesting Hawk to other teams. Horford would be close, but he is not too far from his maximum potential now, whereas Marvin has the tools to be a perennial all-star if he can jsut get in the right system. At least that what many teams will be thinking.
I would love to see Marvin become the player he could be in a Hawks uniform, but it will absolutely NEVER happen with Woodson as his coach. His ability to groom young talent is 100% non-existent. In other words, our draft pick this year, just like Acie, Josh and Josh, Marvin, Al, and any other youngsters, will have a wasted career while in Atlanta. Josh Smith has taken it upon himself and is a highlight film, but you could easily argue that he hasn’t really improved the last couple of years. This is why I think we should just package youth and picks for good vets like teh Caron Butler deal mentioned in a previous blog.
jdewayneatl
June 23rd, 2009
3:13 am
Don’t sleep on MARVIN!!! I’ve said it before, THIS FRONTLINE WILL BE SOMETHING TO TALK ABOUT. We are almost there. Just need a little tweaking.
I’m saying it now… quote it, post it, send me to Hell and back… unless Chris Paul is teamed up with another superstar, THE HAWKS WILL GET TO THE CHAMPIONSHIP GAME WITHOUT HIM AND BEFORE HE DOES.
Stop living in the past… DONT SLEEP ON MARVIN!!!!
Tbones
June 23rd, 2009
5:52 am
First, I’m going to speak on Marvin Williams. The first red flag was that when he had the opportunity to start in college he declined and preferred to come off the bench. If your drafting #2 overall he needs to be an alpha dog franchise player. The second red flag is that you had Al Harrington at the position averaging 18PPG and 7Reb. Do you think it was wise wasting a #2 overall pick on a guy who I think won’t put up better numbers than the guy before him? The third red flag is simple. In the history of the NBA, only one small forward, Larry Bird has led his team to an NBA title. In every NBA champion throughout history, there was either a guard or big man leading them to a title. Lebron may be the second, but his extremely unique. Now I’m going to move on from Marvin. The Hawks need to let Bibby walk and sign Ramon Sessions to half of what Bibby was making. He’s younger, taller, better defender, and better playmaker, and can score when he has to. Trade Marvin Williams and Speedy expiring contract to the Clippers for Chris Kaman. They have a log jam with the bigs and are getting ready to draft Blake Griffin, so the Clippers have to part ways with some bigs. Kaman gives The Hawks a legitimate center. Here’s the kicker. Trade J. Smith to Memphis for Rudy Gay and Marko Jaric. You have to accept Jaric to make the numbers work and Memphis will glady want to get rid of Jaric salary, while adding J. Smith at power forward next to Marc Gasol. Jaric salary comes off The Hawks books in two years, but Rudy Gay gives you an awesome small forward who can create his own shot, plays good defense, and gives you a very good scoring option who will not allow JJ to be doubled so much. Draft the best PG available at your pick, hopefully that will Ty Lawson, because Law is done. Resign Flip and Zaza, and here’s what we look like:
PG: Sessions
SG: JJ
SF: Gay
PF: Hortford
C : Kaman
Key Reserves:
Lawson(if drafted)
Flip
Evans
Zaza
Big Ray
June 23rd, 2009
7:44 am
Astro Joe,
Uh, yeah. Other than an obvious hook, I have no idea what you’re getting at. Besides, I thought you wanted to give Woody the credit for the 47 wins, playoff berths, etc. You’re strange.
Matty Ice-man
June 23rd, 2009
8:53 am
Mark,
What about the kid from Fla. State that is Harry Douglas’ brother (Falcons WR). The kid’s name is Toney Douglas and he is supposed to be a very good Point Guard. I’ve not noticed him much in the 1st round mocks but he could be a nice player. What is your take on Toney Douglas?
Mark Bradley
June 23rd, 2009
9:12 am
He’s a good player who doesn’t have a position. He’s too small to be a 2-guard and he doesn’t really play like a point guard. But I think Douglas would make a fine third guard on a lot of teams.
mark
June 23rd, 2009
9:47 am
tbones i like your idea,now that’s a sweet deal. to bad you ‘re the gm. that is what the hawks need to do. they would stay young and have a nice balance. then you’re talking east finals or beyond
mark
June 23rd, 2009
9:48 am
i mean not the gm. but good post tbones
John
June 23rd, 2009
10:11 am
I think the Hawks should try to sign McDyess to a small deal, resign Flip, resign Zaza, let Bibby go, and draft a PG. They could then work the PG situation out between Law (if Woodson will play him) and the rookie. I am liking Lawson. I also like the idea of adding Toney Douglas, especially if Flip is not going to be resigned. I think Douglas will be an impact rookie. I don’t really like drafting Ellington at 19. I would wait and try to get Meeks in the second round. I don’t understand why is status is so low. The guy can flat out score. Ellington showed flashes of brilliance, especially in the tourney, but seemed like he disappeared for stretches.
Rufus1
June 23rd, 2009
11:12 am
Mark
The Hawks should not draft any PG until Woodson is gone. Woodson’s Offense requires players who can shoot and are 6′5 & up(Guards and Forwards). He does not want an uptempo game or a penetrating back court.
Look for the hawks to focus on players like Ellington, Hansbrough, Mullins, Heyvelt and Meeks. Bibby is the shooter of any PG available, the hawks will try to resign.(I don’t think Sund wants to resign Bibby)
PS…FIRE WOODY
Ken
June 23rd, 2009
11:57 am
Hey Mark,
Follow along with me here, because it may get confusing, but here is how I would make over the Hawks. First of all, I don’t think there’s an awesome point guard in this whole draft other than maybe Rubio, who would never be there at 19, so we shouldn’t bother with a PG at that pick unless maybe Lawson is still on the board (which I doubt). Instead of doing that, sign Rafer Alston away from Orlando if they can pull it off. If Tyler Hansbrough is available at 19, take him. He will be more solid than anyone is giving him credit for, just like Brand was when he was drafted (I’m guessing like Kevin Love with a few less boards). He also has the brains and maturity to contribute 10 and 7 in his rookie season. Since Josh Smith is so hot to trot, let him. His attitude is going to be a constant problem, like Kobe, but unlike Kobe, he is not talented enough to win a game by himself. So here’s the next move: Package Josh Smith in a sign and trade to the Knicks, who are usually suckers for huge contracts, along with Acie Law, Zaza Pachulia, and a future first round pick, and get David Lee for their starting PF, the Knicks first round pick, and Chris Wilcox, whose huge expiring deal could bait them into doing it. Since the Knicks pick 8th, there could be a number of potential stars there with Jennings, DeRozan, and Evans. They should take whoever the best player is.
Big Ray
June 23rd, 2009
12:08 pm
…ding…
Mark Bradley
June 23rd, 2009
12:22 pm
Rafer Alston is older than Mike Bibby. I don’t see Alston as any sort of answer. Sorry. And I’ve already said I wouldn’t trade Josh Smith. We’ll have to disagree on this one, Ken.
Mark Bradley
June 23rd, 2009
12:23 pm
But I have found a second-rounder for the Hawks. (With help from JSS.) Tune in at 3 p.m. and I’ll tell you who it is.
RealSquawk
June 23rd, 2009
12:29 pm
thanks for the answer mark.
Jay
June 23rd, 2009
12:56 pm
Mark,
With all of the talk about big man, have you heard anything from GM Sund or Coach Woodson about their short-term and/or long-range plans for Randolph Morris?
I know he played sparingly last season but he has 1 year remaining on his deal. Since Pachulia might get an offer from some other team that is too good to turn down, Is there something Morris needs to do, or needs to stop doing, to convince Hawk brass to give him PT or is he just filling a roster spot?
Max Dubois
June 23rd, 2009
1:09 pm
I wonder if the Hawks had actually drafted Chris Paul or Deron Williams, would they actually get enough playing time to become olympians or would they just become another acie law or thomas gardner?????
Ric Roc
June 23rd, 2009
1:35 pm
Mark,
Where’s the blog you had up this morning??
BBgenie
June 23rd, 2009
2:01 pm
Let’s get things off to a good track, the past is the past. The only pick Woody had any input on was Al Hortford. The best pick for us is someone who can defend the (1). The small quick point guards, aka D Harris, T. Parker, D. Rose, & Rondo. So Who??? Toney Douglas, FSU. Leading scorer in ACC & Best defensive guard in the conference. Ask Coach K. He’s our Blessing and we must get him, he’s better that Lawson & Teague and he’s not soft like A.C.Law. See you in NY on Thursday.
Larry Stokes
June 23rd, 2009
2:05 pm
Greatest #19’s ever taken in the NBA draft:
Pre-lottery – John Paxson (1983), remember the Chicago Bulls (1991-1993), 3-time champs.
Post-lottery – Jamaal Magloire (2000), one-time all-star (2004) with the New Orleans Hornets.
BBgenie
June 23rd, 2009
2:07 pm
Hey, Jay
Forget about R.Morris, he hasn’t done anything since his 2nd workout last summer for hawks vs. K. Brown. Once he signed on the dotted line, he has been sleep. He’s just like Sheldon Williams a Bust!!! Stick a fork in him. He’s Done!!!!!!!!!
Jay
June 23rd, 2009
3:01 pm
BB genie,
Is he a bust because he is not talented or has he not received an opportunity? Here’s why I ask.
Isiah Thomas wasn’t a very good head coach and far worse as a GM, president or league commissioner but he was a Hall of Fame player and a good evaluator or talent. He believed Morris had/has enough ability to sign him to a free agent contract.
And, unlike Shelden Williams, who was given the opportunity to play 15-20 minutes per game when he was a rookie, Morris didn’t get 20 minutes of playing time all season.
So, that’s why I ask–is it him or is it the lack of opportunity?
Jay
June 23rd, 2009
3:02 pm
I meant “good evaluator of talent”
Brad
June 23rd, 2009
6:30 pm
You like Toney Douglas? Too small for 2, not really a pg? Maniacal on ball defender? Can develop into a serious three point threat? Who’d I just describe? That’s rigt–Lindsay Hunter.Thhis kid never gets past Detroit at 35.
ant banks
June 23rd, 2009
7:41 pm
any word on what the hawks will do with solo? even though i liked zaza, i think that solo can do just as well off the bench zaza will want 6mil per. solo can be had for cheaper and might develop with more minutes.
And it's a flying start to this pivotal Hawks offseason | Mark Bradley
June 26th, 2009
4:29 am
[...] I’m not going to gripe. The Hawks took the guy they liked best at the position of greatest short- and long-term need, and at this point I’m disposed to give Rick Sund and his chief aide Dave Pendergraph the [...]