The Hot Button: Do the Braves need a new manager?
He’s the best manager I’ve ever seen. He’s the best manager I’ll ever see. That said …
I’m not sure Bobby Cox is the best manager for what the Braves have become.
They’ve gone from being great over 15 seasons to being not very good the past 3 1/2. There’s still a aura of assurance around Turner Field, a feeling that, “Oh, we’re the Braves and we’ll figure out something,” but the Braves haven’t figured out much since Brian McCann and Jeff Francoeur were rookies. No, the manager hasn’t stopped managing, but this sort of team needs more managing than Cox likes to do.
He’s a player’s guy, now and forever. He loves his players and treats them like men. The Braves of the ’90s were indeed men, even those who arrived as rookies. They were serious about the game and serious about winning for this manager. I’m not sure what some of these Braves take seriously.
Who can reach Yunel Escobar? Who can instruct Jeff Francoeur in the art of plate management? Who can break the news that Kelly Johnson has 10 days more to prove he belongs in the bigs? Maybe another manager. It’s not this manager’s style.
And his style, we should never forget, worked in a way no other manager’s — not John McGraw’s, not Walter Alston’s, not Sparky Anderson’s — ever has. Fifteen times running Cox brought a team north from spring training and over 15 full seasons he finished first every time. (This counts his 1985 Toronto Blue Jays but not the 1990 Braves, whom he inherited in June, or the 1994 Braves, who were shut down in August by the strike.) He’s a great manager by every measure, maybe the greatest ever.
Loading ...But not every great manager is great with every team, and the neo-Braves don’t respond to avuncular urgings. Maybe they’re not good enough to respond to anything, but as the Braves get younger it seems more likely they’ll see Cox not as a cinch Hall of Famer but as the guy who doesn’t rip them in print or make them work very hard. They’ll see him as a player’s manager, but they’ll neglect to play for him.
It has gotten too easy to be an Atlanta Brave. With few exceptions, these Braves enjoy the reflection of success without having achieved the success itself. They might respond even less favorably to a manager less gentle, but it’s not as if they’re responding to this one.
Via iPhone — yes, he has an iPhone — from Cincinnati, Cox was asked Thursday morning if he felt he was reaching his players. “What do you mean?” he said.
Do they listen to his message, or are they just not good enough for a message to matter? “No, they listen,” Cox said.
But nothing’s working. When you hold the Reds to four hits and get beat on a three-run homer by the Cincinnati pitcher, something’s not right.
OK, you’re asking: Would I fire Bobby Cox? Absolutely not. He’s one of three reasons — John Schuerholz and starting pitching are the other two — the Braves became the Braves. If he wants to keep trying to restore this team to eminence, I’d afford him that chance. He has earned the benefit of every doubt.
But phrase the question differently — if I were hiring someone to manage these Braves, would I hire Cox? — and my answer might be different. And I say that for his sake. I respect the man too much to see him lose with players who have little sense of what it once meant to be a Brave.
I like Bobby Cox. I don’t like what the Braves have become.
For further reading: The Braves aren’t in the market for a manager and mightn’t be anytime soon. But if they were, here are two men I’d consider.
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386 comments Add your comment
Dr. R
June 18th, 2009
12:22 pm
Mark said it best: “With few exceptions, these Braves enjoy the reflection of success without having achieved the success itself.” Those who built the Braves’ legacy are gone, and those who have inherited it are not worthy of it. I think Bobby is a great manager, as do most thinking baseball people. But there are few of those in football-crazy, NASCAR-obsessed Georgia. Others in here think anyone could win with the talent he had. We’ll never know for sure, but I contend it’s not that simple, as it may be in other sports. Managing a baseball team well means getting them to play hard the right way for six months, not blowing a whistle and making them hop through tires. But maybe this bunch of underachievers does need a new, younger skipper. And a few new faces to replace these washed-up former prospects, who (except for McCann) are proving to be marginal major leaguers at best.
Some of you are dumb
June 18th, 2009
12:23 pm
There’s no one I would rather have managing a team than bobby cox. To have success for that long a period of time is extremely rare and very impressive. The problem is the players. Our number 1 starter (thought pitching well) is barely a number 2, our best player cannot stay healthy, and the third best batting average on the team is jeff francoeur’s .250. The players are simply not that good. The team doesn’t even look good on paper
bushwacker
June 18th, 2009
12:23 pm
Why should Cox be treated any different than Glavine, Maddux, Smoltz, Murphy, and Niekro.
He’s no longer producing so its time to cut him loose.
This team has too many good baseball players to not be winning more,they are obviously not motivated.
Just look at the facial expressions when they pan thru the dugout, they all look like someone jusy shot their dog!!
You can’t replace all the players, when need someone who will kick them in the ass like a Lou Pinella, or Larry Bowa, or if he wasn’t being blackballed PETE ROSE would be perfect for this bunch!
Where’s Billy Martin when you need him?
Marc
June 18th, 2009
12:24 pm
Yes, the players of the 90’s were men weren’t they? The difference of course is men take responsibility and put the job at hand before their personal needs. Men don’t whine when they get sent to the minors cause they’re destroying the team’s chances of making a run. Men accept and admit when they can’t get it done, and are wiling to do whatever it takes to make things right again. Real men aren’t too proud to ask for help or listen to their peers. And when real men are hurting their team, they find a more suitable role until they can contribute again.
We need a couple more men on this team.
JeanE
June 18th, 2009
12:24 pm
Bobby Cox is one of the best managers ever. But these players need a kick in the pants & often. Not something they’re going to get from Cox. I look at Sweet Lou Pinella. He jiggers the lineup all the time, based on who’s hitting & who’s not. You would never get that with Cox who likes to think his players will just turn things around themselves. That’s not happening with this team. Francouer should’ve been dealt with a long time ago & it was toally mishandled last season. Jeffy lives in a dreamworld where he’s just having a little slump & he’s as good as his buddy McCann. Ha!! He’s delusional. It’s starting to become demoralizing the way we find new & various methods of losing games. Who’s got the cayones to do something?????
Jim
June 18th, 2009
12:25 pm
“A career .327 OBP for light hitting defensive short-stop would be bad, for a corner outfielder expected to produce, it’s downright awful. a .327 OBP makes you one of the worst corner outfielders in the league. Make no mistake, Anderson is just as much of a problem as Francoeur.”
If that is awful, then over 50% of major league outfielders are ‘downright awful’. Check his numbers with guys like Ryan Church. Church walks more but that’s about it. And he can’t get guys in with RISP. Francoeur loves stats, and his failures can’t always be found in all of his stats. He’s the kind of player you have to watch to figure out. Ask the Red Sox scouts. Anderson isn’t used to a platoon role, was injured for a while, and is being paid less (still less than .147 RISP Church), and is a longstanding veteran that has been steady his whole career. You know what you’re getting with him, and he has shown plenty of signs lately of turning it around. I don’t know what more you expect out of a veteran making only 2.5 mill. He’s been responsible for more than 5 runs the last 5 games and hit in 7 straight. Diaz has also been hot, but Francoeur is keeping him out of the lineup. Not Anderson.
lawton
June 18th, 2009
12:25 pm
one of the best columns you have ever wrote. i would hate to see cox leave also. the REAL problem is the braves dont PAY anymore, lol. the farm system is still sound, its the big pitcher they need or the big bat they cant get anymore. that failure to get the big bat and the shut down pitching is HIGHLIGHTED by the fact they dont have team speed on the bases or hit for average. its all basic, as most baseball fans know. when the braves didnt care about payroll, cox could get the players he needed. the team is just a bunch of AAA scrubs passing off as major leaguers, thats all.
cledus
June 18th, 2009
12:26 pm
Keep Bobby, dump Wren.
Bubba
June 18th, 2009
12:26 pm
It wouldn’t hurt my feelings if Bobby would get a little uppity with some of these slack underachievers. But Bobby’s not the problem. Y’all give Bobby a bunch of crap – “He only won 1 World Series out of all those tries, he must be the most useless manager in the world” – but I gah-ron-tee that Bobby ain’t the problem. TP needs to work on his people skills. Some players need to understand that playing this game is not a right, that in order to be taught, you must first want to learn. Sure, a fresh face might shake things up, but in the long run, shakers eventually fizzle out.
Bobby’s steady. He knows the game. He has been, and will continue to be, a great steward for this organization. He’s doing what he gets paid to do, and he does it well. Maybe there are some other people in the organization who need to be reminded of what they get paid to do.
Robert
June 18th, 2009
12:26 pm
Mr Bradley – I really wanna know what it is about Cox that makes him the greatest in your mind
Is it
1. The repeated strategic and tactical mistakes he makes during games?
2. The assinine comments he makes post game?
3. The fact that undisciplined players love him because he instills and requires no discipline or accountability?
I mean, we hear all the time how every player wants to play for Cox – but time and time again when it comes down to it, they choose elsewhere – (Furcal, Peavy, Smoltz this season alone)
Yeah, Chipper likes him – but in Cox’s clubhouse Chipper is privaleged – dang is it a SURPRISE Chipper loves it?
Cox mishandles his bullpen 5 games out of 7 – sometimes it costs them the game, sometimes not – quite often it costs them a game a day or two later cuz he has himself painted into a corner. He is predictable in his moves, and therefore manipulated like a puppet on a string by even mediocre opposing managers. He has had some many player mixes over the years and even when he has 7 future HOFers on his roster he can only bring it home when the opposing manager is a moron (Hargrove)
Watching Cox vs Valentine in the 1999 NLCS was high hilarity – spy vs spy
Seriously, what makes this guy even halfway competent, much less the greatest ever?
Tony in Johns Creek
June 18th, 2009
12:27 pm
It’s not Bobby, IT’S THE PLAYERS! Bobby doesn’t swing at the first pitch or boot a routine ground ball.
Bobby had a bunch of rookies a few years ago (06) and we won the division. A new manager isn’t going to make these players better. They aren’t that good of players in the first place. Batters 5-8 aren’t everyday major leaguers people.
Also, I get tired of hearing he’s a 3 run home run guy only and doesn’t manufacture runs. Those people must not be watching because I saw it the other night in a comeback victory. Frenchy and Johnson bunted both the runners over… IF he has players that can steal like McClouth he’ll give them the green light.
McClouth is a good step in the right direction. Now we need a new 2nd baseman, right and left fielder and we’ll be good to go. It takes time people. THe roster has been greatly overhauled since last year already… can’t be done overnight.
Also, fans and writers certainly tend to overreact during baseball seasons. What’s everyone going to say if/when we fare well against the Bo Sox and Yanks? There’s still time to gain ground with head to head matchups against the division leaders.
Born2Buzz
June 18th, 2009
12:27 pm
Oh, and the best manager you’ve ever seen or ever will see? EVER?!!?!? Have you watched MLB the last 15 years. How about Tony LaRussa who has more wins and more Championships and continues to manage a team to a winning record with less talent. How about Joe Torre, who won many more championships albeit with great talent.
Like I said, Bobby might have been the best regular season manager because he never panicked and kept the team on an even keel over the long summer of 162 games. But you have to be able to play with urgency and purpose once you get to the playoffs and too many times Bobby just treated them like they were regular season games.
Dr. R
June 18th, 2009
12:27 pm
Gayle, the reason free agents no longer flock to Atlanta is simple: The Braves no longer pay top dollar. In recent years, the team’s ownership has gone from among the top payrolls to middle of the pack. Players unanimously love to play for Bobby, but they’re not going to take less money to do so. Would you? To us fans, it’s a game. To them, it’s their job, and their careers are short. I understand the decision.
It’s true he only won one title, and with great pitching. But one thing he never had was a great closer to finish what Smoltz, Glavine and Maddux started. Look back over the 90s and there was a long string of so-so ninth-inning guys who blew a lot of their hard work (like Reardon’s homer to a backup catcher in ‘92, Wohlers doing the same in ‘96). You give Bobby a Mariano Rivera and he might have had all those rings Joe Torre won.
Robert
June 18th, 2009
12:28 pm
“Bobby’s steady. He knows the game”
Bobby Cox watches baseball with the best of them. I bet he also gives great horsey rides to his grandkids. However, he knows about as much about baseball strategy as the ice cubes in my freezer
JayDubu
June 18th, 2009
12:28 pm
Mark,
I admire Cox almost as much as you do, but don’t think for one second that Cox doesn’t have a say in what players are brought into this organization, and what players are not.
Because, as you stated, “He’s one of three reasons…the Braves became the Braves”. He may not have the final word, {if he did, Glavine would still be on this team} but he has a lot of input, so he has to partially to blame for the cast that has been assembled.
Robert
June 18th, 2009
12:29 pm
“You give Bobby a Mariano Rivera and he might have had all those rings Joe Torre won.”
You give Cox a Mariano Rivera and you’df have gioven him yet another way to snatch defeat from the jaws of seemingly inevitable victory
f leghorn
June 18th, 2009
12:30 pm
If you live by the 3 run homer, you die by the 3 run homer.
Mrs. Chanandler Bong
June 18th, 2009
12:30 pm
To say that Bobby isn’t producing anymore implies that although he’s got some superior talent, he can’t get them to produce results. Yes, I would be more inclined lay the blame at Bobby’s feet if we still had Tex, Sheffield, Dye, etc. and were losing. But we’re not producing results because the talent isn’t there. That does not fall at Bobby’s feet.
Marc
June 18th, 2009
12:31 pm
I would also add that passion for the game and the like is only part of the problem. To be frank I just think some guys on our team were over-hyped (Frenchy, KJ, Kotch, Hanson). I just don’t think they’re as good as people thought they were / wanted them to be.
I still say getting Kotch and a failed relief pitching prospect in return for Tex was bad enough to counter the good trade of Renteria for JJ/Gorky. The other trades in the last three years have all been more negative than positive.
Bodean
June 18th, 2009
12:31 pm
Without Cox this team would be the Nationals.
Andre "Pulpwood" Smith
June 18th, 2009
12:32 pm
Nice job, Mark. The Braves are in a tough situation; there is no way they can, or will, fire Bobby Cox, but does anyone doubt that any other nmanager who had done the job Bobby has over the past three years would be long gone? Bobby isn’t going anywhere unless he chooses to, which I hope is soon.
Dr. R
June 18th, 2009
12:32 pm
Whatever. It’s all hypothetical. I know the guy won more games than only three skippers and 14 straight first-place finishes, which no one has done. Not sure if anybody could satisfy the fair-weather fans of Atlanta by doing more. If a guy won six straight titles, you’d bitch ‘cuz he didn’t win seven and go to the Sugar Bowl. I give up.
Have any of you actually watched a baseball game or are you just biding your time until the Bulldogs start summer practice?
Daniel
June 18th, 2009
12:33 pm
Robert-
What makes you so great in your mind?
Is it
1)The repeated undereducated vitrol?
2)The asinine comments that you repeatedly blog about Cox?
3)The desperate need to be noticed(loved?) by anyone?
Get a new soapbox… and try reading Bradley’s article again.
He is actually talking about people like YOU.
H I McDonough
June 18th, 2009
12:33 pm
“Well, this whole thing is just who knows who. Then over here you got your favoritism.”
NC Braves Fan
June 18th, 2009
12:33 pm
Painful words that are beautifully written, Mark. I could not agree more.
The Braves are not what they used to be – by a long shot. And honestly, I don’t think this is something that’s going to change a lot in the near future.
Daniel
June 18th, 2009
12:34 pm
He also answered your question in the article too.
rlinaug
June 18th, 2009
12:35 pm
Well, you can argue for not firing Cox right now. But if Kelly Johnson starts one game after Omar Infante comes of the DL, then you can fire Cox and leave no doubts on the table. Prado should be in the starting lineup tonight. And I’d put Brandon Jones in the outfield ahead of Francouer. I mean, really. He could do worse.
Kentavo
June 18th, 2009
12:35 pm
Bobby has failed to adapt to his roster.
He’s got a corporate mentality in that he believes that these guys are on a MLB roster, so they must have MLB talent, so he just plugs ‘em in randomly without looking at guy’s strengths and weaknesses (beyond the lefty-righty matchups).
Look at what he’s done with the leadoff and cleanup spots the last few years.
He thinks he’s going to get the 3-run homer, when clearly this power-strapped lineup is not going to do this.
This team needs an in-your-face, let’s work-on-the-fundamentals type manager, not a players’ manager.
I think Cox could manage the Yanks or R. Sox just fine.
Everything about the current Braves screams “nostalgia” – down to the way the games are marketed on TV recalling the glory years.
It’s a shame, because Lowe, Vazquez and J.J. are doing enough to win almost every time out – which means we should be winning 3 out of 5 games most of the time.
They have got to get the deadwood (Frenchy, JK, GA) out of the lineup.
Perhaps Wren will surprise us – he certainly did with the McClouth deal.
Ry
June 18th, 2009
12:36 pm
I have seen on more than one occassion in blogs that Kotchman is not very good or is not cutting it. I am not sure what people are basing this on. From my perspective, he has done exactly what was expected of him and filled the role. He is hitting round .280 and plays good defense. Sure it would be great to have a .300 hitter with 30+ homers at first with gold glove defense, but that is unrealistic unless you are give up a lot in other positions.
Braves Fan in N.Y.
June 18th, 2009
12:36 pm
Thanks, Wes.
All these bad games are starting to run together.
slow roller to second...6-4-3 double play
June 18th, 2009
12:36 pm
Bobby’s done enough to deserve better than this ragtag bunch. It must kill Chipper and Mac to watch Francouer’s lack of any plan at the plate (I can’t get away from the Pittsburgh series, two straight walks given up by their pitcher on only 9 pitches, and French swings at the first pitch, a curve well out of the zone) KJ’s inconsistency hitting and fielding, and Yunel acting as though he’s 10 years old. With Prado gimpy and Infante hurt, there is no one to replace KJ, not that I really think it would happen. Nor do I think Diaz will move to right, which would help immensely at the plate, much more than it would hurt in the field. Bobby’s one big fault, to me, is also his greatest asset: loyalty. I wish Wren would take one decision out of Bobby’s hands by sending French down to let him see if he can hit.
Chopper
June 18th, 2009
12:37 pm
Ted Turner is still the greatest Braves manager in my book!
Bama Aaron
June 18th, 2009
12:37 pm
I can’t entirely agree with your article.
1) as has been pointed out for all the winning seasons and Division titles he brought only 1 World Series win. why? because he’s a by-the-book manager. He plays the odds and during the course of 162 games those odds will fall in your favor. In the post season you actually have to manage and use strategy, which frankly he’s never shown the ability to do.
2) He can’t manage a pitching staff..and I don’t need reminded of the HOF starters we trotted out for many years…I’m talking the bullpen. He has a knack for leaving a starter (or reliever) in there 1 or 2 batters too long. Or taking out a hot reliever just so he can get a lefty or righty matchup and watching the next guy implode!
He’ll get in an umps face to defend his players which I admire but only on rare occasions will he get in a players face (or bench them) like he did Andruw once and Yunel recently. Things like that need to be done more…quit being their friend and actually start managing them.
I have all the respect in the world for Bobby…I’ve watched the Braves win alot more than they’ve lost because of him. But he’s not great manager because of these things and never will be.
Hoosier Aaron
June 18th, 2009
12:38 pm
No question that the general attitude throughout society is – 2nd place is simply the 1st loser.
I personally do not think we fail if we do not win the World Series.
I think we are failing when the team we place on the field does not give 100% effort with every pitch and when we do not play fundamentally sound baseball.
I believe that we as fans watch the Braves right now and do not see either happening….for that reason someone needs to have a seat and ask the question why.
You can’t expect to finish first every year – but you can expect to put a product on the field that is fun to watch…playing good, hard, sound, fundamental baseball….if that is not happening – loyalty goes out the door.
JayDubu
June 18th, 2009
12:38 pm
Bubba,
It used to be the manager’s job to make sure that the coaches and players on his team knew what their roles were, and that they executed them accordingly.
Is that not the case anymore?
count_schemula
June 18th, 2009
12:39 pm
I think the way Frenchy has been handled speaks volumes. They sent him down last year for a reason and Frenchy cried and moaned and they brought him right back, accomplishing nothing. It was not for pride that they sent him down, it was to learn the very things he’s still having trouble with. I have noticed that the Braves like to let a player “fail completely” before releasing him, like with Blaine Boyer or Ryan Langerhans, and I can respect that, even though it does tend to hurt the team somewhat.
"Chef" Tim Dix
June 18th, 2009
12:40 pm
All but two teams in MLB would fire their managers today just for the opportunity for BC to tell them no.
Simply the best.
Mike
June 18th, 2009
12:40 pm
Bobby is fine. The Braves need a real owner is the issue. They will not fork out the money required to rebuild the minor league system that elevated the Braves for all those year.
Shug
June 18th, 2009
12:41 pm
I first had my doubts about Bobby when his vastly superior 1985 Toronto Blues Jays team blew a 3-1 ALCS lead againt the Royals. And then he blew chances in 1991, 1992 and 1993. 1995 proved to be an anomaly. 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2005 again demonstrated he couldn’t bring it on home. The seasons the Braves have had since then would’ve gotten anyone else fired.
Cox’s reputation was always that he was a great manager for the long haul of a season but couldn’t outcoach anyone in the short playoffs. Now, the record demonstrates that he aint so hot for the regular season.
That said, the Braves are lousy because their players and organization are lousy. A different manager isn’t going to make much difference.
This ain't Parkview
June 18th, 2009
12:42 pm
Enough about Frenchy! He went from a 290 hitter in ‘07 to a 239 hitter in ‘08 and still got a 1000% pay raise. We should be praising his chutzpah!!!
Realistic Fan
June 18th, 2009
12:42 pm
I agree, Cox is great but also agree his players are not listening (although they hear him). Kick Bobby back upstairs to an Asst GM – Player Personnel position and let him work on finding our next Chipper, Tom Glavine and John Smoltz (I think all were acquired by Bobby while he was GM). Find something else for Terry Pendleton to do in the organization, and bring in a manager and batting/hitting coach who will hold the players accountable for their results, and over the last few years their lack of results.
I’d like to see Chipper as the batting coach and maybe someday we will, but it does not appear that Jeff Francouer or Jordan Schafer listened to what Chipper has told them. As for Yunel, he just needs a good ass-kicking from somebody to get him out of his fog. Might help Jeff too.
Dr. R
June 18th, 2009
12:42 pm
In baseball, you set the lineup based on past performance and the knowledge that most players will settle into their career averages. Kelly J., for instance, hit .280 last year, so you play him until he reaches that level or gets to the point where you can’t any more. I agree he’s a bum, but you don’t determine that over a couple weeks time. You football fans are used to a season that’s 12 games long when there isn’t time to evaluate a player over a period of time. Fans are notoriously impatient, yet baseball is a game that rewards patience. If any of you were around berore 1991, you were probably griping because the team kept putting those terrible young pitchers like Smoltz and Glavine (17 losses in ‘88) out there to get bombed. Smart guys like Bobby stick with players they know will get better. If you don’t, they wind up becoming stars for someone else.
BravesToo
June 18th, 2009
12:43 pm
Bobby Cox should have retired years ago—he doesn’t have it anymore. Plus, the braves management is incompetent and the owners too cheap to bring in better talent. Another mediocre year for the braves in store!
Pat Jarvis
June 18th, 2009
12:44 pm
Hoosier Aaron: Well said, sir!
Rasheed Willis
June 18th, 2009
12:45 pm
We need a Black Manager like Dusty Baker! Then we will win it all!
OBAMA is my black presidents!
David
June 18th, 2009
12:46 pm
Cox should have been fired after losing the 1996 World Series. Along with the most overrated pitching coach and crappy radio guy, Leo Mazzone. Leo could never develop a reliever. Everyone wonders why Leo is not coaching this year? Gee, maybe because he is a jerk, and really is not that good.
Wes
June 18th, 2009
12:48 pm
Bravesfan: It’s understandable. When every single loss is exactly the same as the one before it, the memories do tend to blur together.
elainer7
June 18th, 2009
12:48 pm
There isnt any discipline among the players on that team and that is the fault of the manager.
Realistic Fan
June 18th, 2009
12:49 pm
Rasheed – tell us you are not serious here. Come on, some one being black will suddenly make the Braves winners? Not hardly!
BigPapaT18
June 18th, 2009
12:50 pm
Bobby Cox isn’t the one who gave up the 3-run shot to Owings. Bobby Cox isn’t the one grounding into inning ending double plays. Bobby Cox isn’t striking out in crucial clutch situations. Is it Bobby’s fault that guys like Francoeur, who no matter who instructs him (Cox, Pendleton, Chipper, Jaramillo, etc.) can’t seem to work it out? Ask anyone in baseball and they will tell you that Bobby is one of the greatest managers and most respected minds in the game. He can only work with what he is given. I’m sorry, but Prado, Diaz, Brandon Jones, and all the other players that wannabe managers have suggested replace other players in the lineup, are NOT THE SOLUTION. The type of players the Braves lack are not currently playing in the organization…that’s a GM problem.