Face Off: Say goodbye to Marvin, hello to Caron Butler

Read Jeff Schultz’s view: Hawks need to get the point — and it’s Rafer Alston

Marvin Williams is the least essential Hawks starter. He scores points and takes rebounds but seems to leave no imprint on games, and one of the reasons Joe Johnson gets the ball with three seconds on the shot clock — or, worse, Josh Smith gets it 25 feet from the hoop — is that Marvin, four years a pro, still won’t assert himself.

I want to see Marvin not assert himself elsewhere next season. I want the Hawks to re-sign him — he’s a restricted free agent — and ship him and Acie Law to Washington for Caron Butler and Javaris Crittenton. The Wizards are looking to cut salary, so that part would work for them, and they’re also looking to get younger. Williams turns 23 on Friday; Butler is 29. (See ajc.com photo gallery.)

Butler is a small forward with deep range and — key point — a ton of self-assurance. He wants the ball when the clock’s ticking low. He averaged 20.8 points, 6.2 rebounds and 4.3 assists last season to Marvin’s 13.9, 6.3 and 1.3.

My biggest complaint has been that too much of the Hawks’ offense begins and ends with Johnson. (”Iso-Joe,” as clever bloggers have dubbed it.) Butler would lighten that load by making plays of his own — Marvin, as we know, makes few plays — and would provide cover should Mike Bibby leave as a free agent. A team could make do with Flip Murray as its starting point guard if he has Johnson and Butler at 2 and 3.

This trade need not be a loss for the Wizards. In a city where he isn’t known mostly for not being Chris Paul, Williams still could develop into something more than a team’s fifth-best starter. (Not so long ago, he was considered the most gifted player of his draft class.) But it hasn’t panned out for him as a Hawk and, with Johnson and Smith and Al Horford ahead of him now, it won’t ever.

Butler would upgrade the Hawks at one of the two positions that could stand upgrading. The other is point guard, and that’s more problematic. Bibby, who’s an unrestricted free agent, might not want to play for half what he made last season and could well leave. (Law’s time here seems done.) Flip, whom the Hawks will surely re-sign, is best deployed as a scoring sixth man, not an orchestrator. That’s where the draft comes in.

There’s not a Paul or a Deron Williams to be had, but there are some promising guards who figure to be available at No. 19. Eric Maynor of VCU could be there. Patty Mills of St. Mary’s could be. And Ty Lawson of North Carolina, who seemed slotted to go in the lottery, has been dropping in the mock drafts. He could be there, too.

The Hawks are getting close to something good. They don’t need to be taking the long view now. Caron Butler will make $21 million over the next two seasons. That’s a reasonable price for the guy who could bring the Hawks that much closer to Orlando and Cleveland and Boston.

333 comments Add your comment

Rufus1

June 17th, 2009
11:08 am

I like the Marvin for Caron, but Javaris for Acie, I think that is crazy. What has Javaris has done more than AC. It is clear from your love Josh and now Javaris, you have a MAN CRUSH on athletes.

HawkKingBibby

June 17th, 2009
11:15 am

Mark this is a great idea but Rick Sund is going to have to get the Wizards gm real drunk to agree to this trade.

Drez

June 17th, 2009
11:18 am

Why would the Wizards make this trade???

HawkKingBibby

June 17th, 2009
11:20 am

I think like you say if we get Butler we can rely on Flip for a year to start and draft a point as well. I have one ? though, you seem real positive the Hawks will resign Flip and its not the 1st time you wrote that. What makes you so sure?

mryan

June 17th, 2009
11:22 am

Great minds think alike Mr. Bradley. Caron Butler is in need of a change of scenary and I think the ATL is a perfect landing spot.

ILL-logical

June 17th, 2009
11:23 am

A sound but modest proposal Mr. Bradley, however it still doesn’t address the fundamental challenge that the Hawks organization continues to face: Mike Gearon has not been a good steward of the franchise.
Certainly changes in the faces on the floor are in order. The question is why in a town where over half of the current or past NBA live and play can’t there be a better selection of free agents and certainly better coaching and general management?

If you look at the organization from top to bottome objectively(if true sports fans could achieve that state) there is nothing that says championship aspirations or effort.

I am not advocating letting the perfect becoming the enemy of the good-I don’t see very much good in the future. The fact that there are 6 free agents on an up and coming franchise doesn’t speak well of the strategic planning for the organization. and to have all of the coaching staff being effectively relieved of their duties doesn’t inspire convidence either. And let’s not forget the small matter of the team’s finances.

It is entertaining to banter about who is great and is not / who is better suited to to do what, however until or unless their is some real leadership at the top , all of this but sound and fury that signifies nothing.

Herschel Talker

June 17th, 2009
11:27 am

The Hawks are irrelevant

you kiddin ?

June 17th, 2009
11:30 am

Jarvis Crittenton? Is that a joke? Acie is 10 times better than that tool. He was overrated when he played at Yech and he’s a nobody in the NBA.

Ernest

June 17th, 2009
11:32 am

>A team could make do with Flip Murray as its starting point guard <

Not sure I agree with this statement. Some players are best coming off the bench and I think Flip is one of those. At the end of the day, it does not matter who starts but who finishes…

This is an interesting trade proposal however I may be one of the few fans that can see the contributions Marvin makes to the team. Chemistry is an important factor with basketball teams and I think Marvin ‘fits in’ with what the Hawks are doing. They want him to look for his shot in the beginning of the games then serve as an outlet to drive to the basket (with hopes of getting fouled) near the end.

While Butler is a good player, he may inadvertently take away from both Al and Josh’s development. By that I mean he will probably need a certain number of touches and shots per game which would take away from Al and Josh.

phoenix falcon

June 17th, 2009
11:33 am

the Hawks have enough forwards, they need a center ( Orlando’s back up center could fit the bill) , and a point guard, we have been saying this for how long? why is it so clear to everybody else, but not the people who can do something about it? this is not brain surgery.

Mark Bradley

June 17th, 2009
11:35 am

The Wizards are an aging team with some massive salaries — Gilbert Arenas and Antawn Jamison make a ton of money. It will be cheaper to have Marvin in a sign-and-trade than to pay Caron Butler around $10 million next season, and Marvin is six years — actually, seven as of this moment — younger.

As for Flip: No other general manager likes Flip as much as Rick Sund. Trust me on that.

shresee2

June 17th, 2009
11:36 am

How could we beat the Cav’s when the rumor mill on the cav’s website says they want and can afford Josh Smith. That Josh Smith would be explosive in their offensive and a missing piece needed for lebron. How could the Hawks complete with that with only draft picks or players people want to give away. I know we should not get caught in the rumors but trading Josh to a east team rival seems like suicide. How would that be to trade josh to cleveland and they win the championship. I know the hawks have to do something but we cannot go back to a 13 or 30 win season. If we get these players will Woody open up and really use them and get deeper into the bench and not ride JJ for the most minutes.
How about charlie Villanueva? The Hawks have created a fan base that makes it tough for teams to play here and we want to be a place that players want to come. Other organizations say we lack real leadership and are just cheap. Others share your thoughts!

The Dust

June 17th, 2009
11:37 am

JOSH SMITH MUST GO!

Trey J

June 17th, 2009
11:38 am

I live in Washington and I saw a lot of Wizards game on TV….LOL I only went to the Verizon Center when my Hawks came to town. Sort of like what the Hawk fans do in reverse at Phillips.
I would love that trade! Butler is a baller and would automatically bring the Hawks about 7 or 8 additonal wins! I’m not hating on Marvin but he’s not the answer in Atlanta and like the song saids “a change would do you good”!
However, with all that being said honestly why would Washington give him up? They got a young talented team with a new coach and he’s the leader on that team not Agent O!
I hope there’s something to this trade rumor and not just away to take my mind off that issh about trading Josh! The Hawks have a good thing going but still the biggest problem isn’t the players it’s the coach!
Gosh I hate stating the obvious….our coach is Avery Johnson but the ownership is too cheap to make the move. I’m tired of that stuff about him winning more games. Shoot the team is just growing up so they should win more games but when the game is close watch this team and tell me it ain’t coaching.
My bad I know we were talking about the Trade for Butler but if Woody is still there we will be talking about this same problem next year.

phoenix falcon

June 17th, 2009
11:39 am

” shresee2 ”

What???????????

Mark Bradley

June 17th, 2009
11:42 am

I agree: Law has a greater upside than Crittenton. But Law has no future here, and Crittenton would be the makeweight to balance the trade scales money-wise.

And for those saying the Hawks need a center: Do you really believe adding Orlando’s backup and making Al Horford scoot over to 4 will help this team more than upgrading — and Butler is an upgrade — at small forward?

Brendan

June 17th, 2009
11:42 am

Does Marvin Williams suck so bad that he simply must be traded? Wasn’t he a lottery draft selection?

Johhny Utah

June 17th, 2009
11:43 am

Did you not watch any effing games this year bud, Marvin guarded the best offensive player on the opposing side and was the best defensive player on the team. The first game against the Cavs in December when Cleveland was on a 12 game winning street Marvin completly shut down LeBron. If he was not injured during the playoff series the end result of the series would have been completly different, hard to make an impact with a broken wrist.

phoenix falcon

June 17th, 2009
11:44 am

if they trade the the most talented player on the team, i could no longer be a fan of the team. We can all see, the falcons want to get better, the braves want to get better, not so much for the Thrashers and Hawks, and i don’t think that, that is a coincidence they are owned by the same group.

dap01

June 17th, 2009
11:46 am

Get rid of Woody and AC would have a future here. Who’s future is more important, Woody or our young players.

KG

June 17th, 2009
11:48 am

I like Marvin for Caron but not Acie for Javaris. I just don’t think Marvin is going to get much better than he already is. I would be happy with trading him for a 1 or a 5 and bringing Chills back.

phoenix falcon

June 17th, 2009
11:51 am

yes mark, THEY NEED A CENTER, then Horford can play at his natural position, resign Zaza, if they can’t resign Bibby, they still have Flip, they still have A.C., and they can still draft a point guard. i just don’t see how Butler makes this team into a Championship contender.

Mark Bradley

June 17th, 2009
11:52 am

Marvin Williams isn’t a terrible player. He’s a decent player. He averages double figures in points and he’s an OK rebounder. And he tries to play defense. But he’s the least essential starter on his team four years into his career, and that’s not a good sign.

Sam Wetherson

June 17th, 2009
11:53 am

Johnnu Utah I really question of some of these people actually watch the games. Marvin is a very good player stuck in a bad system. How does Caron Butler make us better. Marvin is one of only a few players that can actually guard Lebron James effectively. Josh Smith can’t, JJ can’t and Caron Butler sure as hell can’t. Marvins gets 14 a game very efficiently. Give him Josh SMith’s shots and he would average 20+ a game easy. He and Al Horford are forced to stand around and watch JJ/Bibby dribble for 20 seconds or watch Josh Smith pretend he is Larry Bird. These guys must be getting kickbacks from Josh’s agent. Marvin Williams is the least of our problems.

Melvin

June 17th, 2009
11:54 am

I like Caron for Marvin idea (minus Acie for Javaris). I’m a little worry about Caron ability to guard Turk, Pierce and Lebron. Then again, who can guard those guys. Having a legit 2nd opt or opt 1b that could get ya 20pts a night would move this team closer to the big dogs in the east. It’s a gamble I would roll the dice on. It’s easier to find another wing if Caron doesn’t workout.

Truth About It.net

June 17th, 2009
11:54 am

Do your homework Mark…

The Wizards aren’t necessarily trying to cut salary, they are trying to win a championship before owner Abe Pollin fades into the sunset.

Pollin has even come out saying that he would pay the luxury tax to win.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/20/wizards-owner-pollin-ready-to-pay-penalty-to-win/

Aside from that, Caron Butler is an affordable all-star … Marvin Williams is not even close to an All-Star game.

On talent alone, a GM would have to be an absolute idiot to make this trade .. or Kevin McHale .. or Chris Wallace. Ernie Grunfeld is not an idiot.

I kinda expected better from you Main Stream Media types … no offense.

HawkKingBibby

June 17th, 2009
11:54 am

Mark, I was just thinking that Marv is a BYC player so the Wiz would most likely have to take Speedy in this trade also for it to work.

phoenix falcon

June 17th, 2009
11:55 am

Mark it would be a worst sign if Marvin was not starting at all, he has gotten better every year, i expect him to be better next year then he was last year, meanwhile Butler will be 30.

Mark Bradley

June 17th, 2009
11:55 am

Are the Celtics a championship contender? Who’s their center? Kendrick Perkins? Is he as good as Al Horford? Nope.

If you don’t have one of the league’s five best players — and neither the Hawks nor the Celtics do — the way you win a title is to have three or four of the league’s 10 best players at their respective positions. (That’s the Rick Sund doctrine, and I believe it.) Joe, Josh and Al have that capability. Caron Butler does, too. So that’s four really good players plus a PG. That team would win 50-plus games, which would put it in the picture in the NBA East.

phoenix falcon

June 17th, 2009
11:57 am

” HawkKingBibby ”

if they take speedy, and his contract with them in a deal, i would feel ( as a hawk fan ) MUCH BETTER ABOUT A TREAD LIKE THIS.

darrell starks

June 17th, 2009
11:58 am

Why make that trade when we need to use marvin for a bigger fish do you want championship or 6th seed every year i say trade horford marvin and the 19th pick for bosh and if he resign the following year thats good if not thats more money to go after lebron who LUV THE ATL.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!

Mark Bradley

June 17th, 2009
12:01 pm

Marvin plus Horfy is too much to give up for Bosh, who might not be here more than a year. Sorry, Darrell, but we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Mark Bradley

June 17th, 2009
12:03 pm

Yeah, HawkKingBibby, I thought about throwing Speedy in, but that just seemed way too lopsided. (But I’m not a cap maven, and base-year compensation still stumps my band.)

I figured it like this: Law has a greater upside than Crittenton, so the Wizards gain on that end. Butler is a better player than Marvin, so the Hawks win that half. And everybody’s happy!

Najeh Davenpoop

June 17th, 2009
12:05 pm

I agree with the people posting above who say Law is better than Crittenton, but if that’s what it takes to replace Marvin with Caron Butler, I’m all for it. Law can be a starting point in this league — it’s Woodson’s fault he’s not given that opportunity. But Butler is an All-Star caliber forward, and although he’s in the same boat as Johnson to an extent in that he’s not a franchise player, adding him will give the Hawks two players who are just beneath that level (possibly three if Josh realizes his potential this year).

Najeh Davenpoop

June 17th, 2009
12:06 pm

The only question I have is whether the Hawks or Wizards have any reservations about trading within the division. I have always thought that’s a dumb reason not to do trades, but the fact is there are GMs in every sport who resist making intra-division trades.

Mike B.

June 17th, 2009
12:08 pm

If the Hawks could pull a deal such as this, I would start believing in our ownership. Word is the Wiz are looking to lower payroll and still be competitive. This deal would be a stretch, but would do that for them. For the Hawks, we need some help for Joe (and hope he doesn’t bolt next year). We also need a solid #1 guy. Butler isn’t that guy, but with 2 solid #2 guys (Joe and Caron) and a developing #2 (Josh is not a go to guy nor is he a finished product) we would improve greatly. Of course Salim….Acie is better that Crittenton, but it’s obvious Woody won’t play him so let him go and develop elsewhere. If the Hawks could pull somethting like this, I would have more faith in the orginization.

phoenix falcon

June 17th, 2009
12:08 pm

” I figured it like this: Law has a greater upside than Crittenton, so the Wizards gain on that end. Butler is a better player than Marvin, so the Hawks win that half. And everybody’s happy! ”

all except hawk fans who want a trophy. all except the players who would make another early exit in the playoffs.

Mark Bradley

June 17th, 2009
12:09 pm

Yeah, Najeh, you make a good point. (You always do, by the way.) But I couldn’t find anybody out West I really liked. I can’t imagine the Kings parting with Kevin Martin, say.

Dan

June 17th, 2009
12:10 pm

silly AJC columnists trying to write about the NBA. Why don’t you leave the basketball talk to Sekou, you know, someone who actually knows something about the Hawks.

shresee2

June 17th, 2009
12:13 pm

phoenix falcon This is what I was referring to on Clevelands news site
AP Photo/John AmisIf the rumors that Josh Smith could be available are true, should the Cavaliers take a look?
Cavalier Attitude: “Something tells me that if the Cavs are looking for a young, long-term solution at power forward, Josh Smith is as good as it’s going to get. They just don’t have the pieces for Amar’e Stoudemire if STAT ever becomes available. If they want Chris Bosh, then they’re going to have to wait for the summer of 2010 and free agency, because if they don’t have the pieces for STAT, they certainly don’t have the pieces for Bosh. Smith is neither Amar’e nor Bosh, but he’s a heck of a solution and a great fit for the Cavs on both ends of the floor.” » Read more
WaitingForNextYear: “Given a new team to play with, one with strong leadership and a high level of chemistry, it would be incredibly intriguing to see how Smith’s game could blossom in Cleveland. He’ll be 24 next season, and he’s signed to a reasonable amount through 2013, giving the Cavaliers another long term piece to the puzzle and further adding to the stability of this roster. For a player who has had a +15 PER in every season of his career and over the last 3 years has put up 16.4 points, 8.0 rebounds, and 2.43 blocks per game, he would certainly be an exciting addition in the wine and gold.” » Read more

edward

June 17th, 2009
12:16 pm

Love the article Mark and would love for Sund to somehow pull this trade off. It would make the Hawks a much better team on both ends of the court, and especially in crunch time and having someone else who could help Joe out and take over a game. Even though I do like Marvin he really does have the least impact on our team compared to our other starters. The only question I have is why would Washington do this? I understand the money part of the equation. I’m just scared that they will trade Jamison insted of Butler to save money and get younger. Hope you are right Mark, this trade would put us up there in the East and make us a bonafide contender. One question: Who would you like for the Hawks to draft? How bout Lawson? I think he is perfect for what we need. Imagine him leading the break with Josh, Joe, Caron, Al, etc? Pretty good I’d say.

Mac

June 17th, 2009
12:17 pm

Doesn’t the presence of Speedy Claxton mean the Hawks point guard position is solid? I mean he has had a lot of time to rest and heal.

Mike B.

June 17th, 2009
12:17 pm

There is nothing on Cleveland’s team we would want outside of Lebron to get Smith so that’s out of the window. Maybe if they package Mo Williams, Delante West, and big Z, but that (like this thought) would be foolish.

Aaron

June 17th, 2009
12:18 pm

The only differences between Marvin Williams and Caron Butler are as follows:

Marvin is younger and bigger.
Caron is a better passer and has more plays run for him.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/tiny.cgi?id=yyZWK

^^^They are comparable defenders and rebounders, and their offensive efficiency are nearly identical.

Here’s a better idea – run some plays for someone other than Flip Murray and Joe Johnson, and keep the player who works hard on his game every offseason and has gotten better every year in the league.

Don’t get me wrong, I love Caron Butler as a 3rd option. The problem is that Marvin has more than enough ability and upside to be a better 3rd option than Caron Butler.

Mark, the same logic you and Sekou use to justify hanging on to Josh Smith works for Marvin Williams as well.

Mark Bradley

June 17th, 2009
12:19 pm

Edward, I’d say Eric Maynor would be my favorite PG — among those who might be around at No. 19 — in the draft, but Lawson is second. And I like Patty Mills, too. I’d consider it a win if they got any of those.

Mark Bradley

June 17th, 2009
12:21 pm

Nice one, Mac.

And Mike, I agree. Would you take Delonte West and Big Z for Josh and Mo Evans, say? I wouldn’t.

fudd21

June 17th, 2009
12:23 pm

Shresee2, but the Cavs have nothing and I mean absolutely positively nothing that the Hawks could use or would want (outside Lebron of course) so why on earth would we ever consider trading with the Cavs. Who would we get Varejao? I’m just saying

Cleveland

June 17th, 2009
12:24 pm

I agree with ILL-logical. The issue for this franchise is ownership. Until that is resolved, the teams future and finances will not attrack anyone to come and lift this team over the hurdle it has faced since Ted Turner owned the team.

You have this idea that breaking up this team will make it better, it will not. The philosophy needs to change.

1. This tam is loaded with talent that needs to be resigned. It will not happen because of ownership.

2. The talent that is here needs to play. This team was dog tired during the play offs because the rotation and the style of play used is not player or fan friendly. THIS TEAM SHOULD BE PLAYING UPTEMPO AND PLAYING MORE PLAYERS.

3. The reason that Joe Johnson has the ball in his hands at the end of the shot clock has more to do with the fact that the team doesn’t have a creative point guard that can beat his man off the dribble and get people open shots. Let Mike Bibby go (he didn’t play defense at any time)

Sam Wetherson

June 17th, 2009
12:29 pm

So Bradley the following is Marvin’s fault:

JJ-disappeared in the playoffs and most of the season.
Josh Smith-takes bad shots
Josh Smith-can’t defend or rebound for his position
We didn’t win 60 games.
Bibby-can’t defend worth a damn
we have no offense.
Injuries
Each of those problems will exist if Marvin was here or not. You think an all star is going to come in and be the 3rd or 4th option on this team. He averages 20 a game but he takes nearly 20 shots a game. Sometimes adding more talent doesn’t make the team better. Marvin and Caron’s stats are nearly identical except for the scoring. Marvin is a better defender. Butler is a hothead as well. Marvin Williams was the 13th ranked SF last year. AS the fourth option. We get rid of Bibby MArvin moves up into the top 10. How can a player that gives you 14 a game taking 7-10 shots a game be bad for a team. He plays good defense. How is he the scapegoat?? After he got hurt our record was 16-14 including the playoffs!!

dub

June 17th, 2009
12:31 pm

I like to know one thing why A.C. Law CAN’T play point guard. I blame it on the coach for not putting him in and let him play he can’t do no more than Bibby & Joe WAS DOING TURNING THE BALL OVER. AT least he take it to the basket Bibby want. everytime he made a mistake he get the hooks unless the game is out of hand.Coaching is the problem.

niremetal

June 17th, 2009
12:32 pm

Um. How would that trade cut any payroll for the Wizards? At all? You do realize that NBA salaries have to roughly match in trades where both teams are over the cap, right? And that a sign-and-trade with Marvin would mean the Wizards would be taking back a guy with a new 4-5 year contract while Butler has just two years left on his?

niremetal

June 17th, 2009
12:34 pm

And having lived in DC for the past couple years and seen many Wizards games, I can tell you that Caron Butler is not close to as good as you make him sound. Not remotely.

darrell starks

June 17th, 2009
12:35 pm

Why do you say horford marvin and the 19th pick is to much for bosh specially if chill come back.
STARTERS ACIE, JOE, CHILL, JOSH, BOSH,
BENCH FLIP, MOE, HAKIM WARRICK, CHARLIE V. ZAZA
RESERVE SOLO, WEST
TEAM PAYROLL 75MILL
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!

niremetal

June 17th, 2009
12:37 pm

And ABSOLUTELY co-sign Aaron.

Dan

June 17th, 2009
12:39 pm

I say trade Marvin if it gives us a chance to select Hasheem Thabeet.
Put Hasheem at center, move Horford to Power Forward and Josh Smith to Small Forward what a great defense that would make…Then draft Ty Lawson with our pick….We could also sign either Bibby, Jamal Crawford, Jarrett Jack or Andre Miller to play point

Mark Bradley

June 17th, 2009
12:41 pm

I understand a lot of people see Marvin Williams in a more favorable light than I do. (And I have nothing against him personally. He has always been very accommodating.) But I had the same question about him as a UNC freshman that I do as a four-year pro: Why is he so deferential to other players?

I also know a lot of folks fault Josh Smith for trying to do too much. Better that than too little, I say.

Rufus1

June 17th, 2009
12:42 pm

Sam

I completely agree with you about Marvin..Some people have DUNK fever. Why doesn’t Marvin have just as much UPSIDE as Josh. No body would give Marvin wide open Jump shots. What about the 3 he hit against Boston. He one of the few people who can guard Lebron, Rasard, Hedu and Paul Pierce.

You don’t trade a 23 year old, 6′9, 240lb sf, who can hit the 3. His is extremly efficient and has a very good jump shot and he plays very good defense.

MARVIN WILLIAMS IS THE SAME HEIGHT AND WEIGHT, CAN SHOT AND GUARD THE 3 OR 4 POSTION….WHY WOULD YOU TRADE HIM.

PS…FIRE WOODY

MJ3

June 17th, 2009
12:42 pm

Man wat the hell you talkin bout trading marvin for Caron? Didnt you watch any games at all this year before marv got hurt? Marvin is already as good a defender as caron, a better outside shooter, and isnt afraid to take it to the rim.

You talk bout him not being assertive. how the hell is he suposed to be assertive in woody’s offense, where all he ever is told to do is stand on the perimeter and wait for a bailout pass? do you actually blame MARVIN for WOODY’S offense? seriously, i want to know.

TP

June 17th, 2009
12:45 pm

Great post Mark. Quite simply, I think Horford is the only untouchable on this roster (Josh Smith a close second). I know it’s more complicated than this, but if I were Rick Sund, I’d have a hard time turning down a mutually fair trade for any other player. I’d take Butler in a hearbeat, as well as take my chances with Crittenton (though I do think Law and Flip would make for a nice PG pairing).

Regarding Marvin, I think he’d be the next Robert Horry, if he landed on the right team. Rather than be the star of the show, he could grab a few rebounds, play minimal D and hang out at the 3-point line. Perhaps the Cavaliers would be a good fit.

Mark Bradley

June 17th, 2009
12:50 pm

TP, that’s a good comparison. But I’d offer one bit of contrast: Horry was never deferential, not even at Alabama. (As I recall, he kept getting technical fouls.) I’m just not sure boldness is in Marvin’s DNA.

Chris

June 17th, 2009
12:52 pm

I feel like I’ve seen this Acie story before. Didn’t Coach Woody ruin another scoring point guards career that the team drafted? Oh yeah, Salim Stoudamire. Acie doesn’t even come close to the same player he was in college, and I’m betting it has something to do with lack of minutes and a coach telling him he’s not supposed to shoot in this league. I fear taking another PG later in the draft. He’ll do nothing but ride the bench with an Adam Morrison type look on his face. I’m not even sure that Woody would let J-Critt play once he got here, so really our only option is Andre Miller or Mike Bibby.

Can someone please explain to me the benefit of not having set plays? I don’t understand why our offense is run like they’re playing a pickup game.

Rufus1

June 17th, 2009
12:53 pm

Aaron

Co-sign

Darrin "The Vent King"

June 17th, 2009
12:55 pm

So far I like both you and Schultz’s ideals today- trade to get R Alston and trade Marvin Williams (heck for anybody!) for C Butler. Those two pieces along with what we have (minus the coach of course) would be a great idea and a step forward in the right direction. Get a center (maybe the Polish backup from Orlando), move Al Horford to his natural 4, J-Smoove to the 3 and a new coach with a different philosophy and we might have something…

Rufus1

June 17th, 2009
12:59 pm

JOSH SMITH CAN’T PLAY 3, HE CAN’T GUARD SF OR SHOT. NAME ONE OTHER SF WHO CAN’T HIT A WIDEOPEN JUMP SHOT.

Mash

June 17th, 2009
1:00 pm

Mark, I like the Marvin for Butler trade idea. However, I’m not sure Washington would do it. Say we opt to not sign Bibby for financial reasons, do you think we could coax the Bulls into taking Marvin for Hinrich (plus a draft pick or some marginal player). The Bulls are going to have unload Hinrich, right?

What do you think?

Hedo Fan

June 17th, 2009
1:00 pm

Gortat and Alston would both be fine additions from Orlando, but Turkoglu is the key guy we need to sign. He can shoot, handle the ball and penetrate. Take Bibby’s $15M and give it to Hedo. He could even bring the ball up if Acie didn’t pan out. Hedo also makes Marvin expendable in a trade. This is a no brainer.

Chris

June 17th, 2009
1:02 pm

Also, maybe throwing around Al Horford to see if anyone takes a bite wouldn’t be a bad idea. His numbers from his rooke year and sophomore year are practically identical (’07-’08: 10.1pts, 9.7reb, 0.9blks, 81 games) (’08-’09: 11.5pts, 9.3reb, 1.4blks, 67 games). I don’t know if he’s really going to get much better than that. If it’s the Celtics, Cavs, and Magic we’re trying to catch up to, he can’t hold his own against any of those teams in my opinion.

richbrave

June 17th, 2009
1:10 pm

J-CRIT is a playa’ and will prove it over the course of saying good-bye and thanks for the memories to the ghost of AGENT ZERO. He’s going no-where, but would be a great pick-up for the HAWKS. Now, BUTLER might be had, but MARVIN would not be what the WIZ need. In my estimation they need to get tough on the inside and play defense at the #’s 4 and 5. Nothing less. PACHULIA might be able to get some PT by moving McGEE to the #4 where he belongs. JAMISON to #3 playing alongside DOM McGUIRE to take BUTLER’s place. Just no place for MARVIN.

TP

June 17th, 2009
1:11 pm

Great point – I remember also Horry was on the Hawks radar, but we obviously drafted someone else. I can’t for the life of me remember who that was. That SF from Duke (not named Shelden) who also went to Saint Joe’s?

If he does stick around, I suggest playing mind games with him. Let Woody publicly criticize him. Or, you can proclaim to the world that “he’s the man” now and will be expected to take x number of shots. Make him play in the Summer League again. It may seem wacky, but I’d like to see how he plays when he’s ticked off.

tmac

June 17th, 2009
1:13 pm

I agree that Marvin needs to go.
I only wish anyone would agree to a trade like this.

tim

June 17th, 2009
1:14 pm

why dont the hawks this yars number oen draft pick and next years number one pick and trade them to try ot get in the top ten lottery this year, and he money they would save by trading next years pick would help for big free agents next year.

tim

June 17th, 2009
1:18 pm

why dont the hawks this years number one draft pick and next years number one pick and trade them to try and get in the top ten lottery this year, and the money they would save by trading next years pick would help for big free agents next year.

Daniel

June 17th, 2009
1:18 pm

I love the trade idea Mark, but along with alot of others on here do not see the feasability. But, hey who knows. I still like the idea of trading Josh Smith for Chris Bosh(with contract extension). Then work the team from there.

F.I.L.A

June 17th, 2009
1:18 pm

Mr.Bradly you are wrong about marvin williams..He scores 13 ppg as the 4th option and still doesnt have any plans ran for him..2-3 years from now if we trade marvin we will regret it..

jpmoney

June 17th, 2009
1:21 pm

you are an idiot…Marvin is essential to this team moving forward. His natural growth will make him much better than Butler. Please let people who know basketball write about basketball.

ray

June 17th, 2009
1:24 pm

Mark– This is a really good trade proposal. And I have a little bit of confidence that Sund could make it happen.
If Bibby leaves as a free agent, though, they probably would need to find a veteran free agent – not sure Flip could cut it as an 82 game starter.
Marv does need to go – he’s the weak link in the starting lineup.

Often Disappointed/Never Surprised!

June 17th, 2009
1:24 pm

Any organization in need of a Center (Low-Post) must consider Orlando’s back-up. In fact, had Van-Dummy played him along side Howard morem, they would have fared a whole lot better. Somebody please help me understand why Patrick Ewing (Jumpshooting Center) is training Dwight Howard, a Low Post center. Does anyone else remember the 80’s playoffs when Ewing choked and caused his team to be eliminated by choosing to finger-roll rather than dunk with both hands?

Mark Bradley

June 17th, 2009
1:28 pm

I think you mean Roshown McLeod, TP. (Who used to live in my neighborhood, by the way.) He was the Hawks’ No. 1 pick in 1998. Horry was already a pro by then.

Tyger

June 17th, 2009
1:29 pm

The Hawks are soooo dumb that…._________________________________ u fill in the blank.

Mark Bradley is soooo dumb that… ________________________________ u fill in the blank.

RealSquawk

June 17th, 2009
1:44 pm

You couldn’t come up with a trade scenario for Josh Smith?

You just got to hate on the guy putting out this trade scenario, which I will admit I would execute on despite how much I like Marvin, but I would need a future first round pick for it.

Again I ask why not come up with A trade scenario for Josh SMith it would be more relevant and it would cause a bigger commotion.

Don’t trade Marvin because he is out BEST PERIMETER DEFENDER AND ONE OF THE BEST IN THE LEAGUE. DON’T TRADE HIM FOR THE SAME REASON YOU DIDN’T PUT UP A BLOG “JOSH FOR AMARE,” BECAUSE HE IS YOUNG AND A YEAR AWAY. DONT TRADE HIM BECAUSE HE WILL BE OUR BEST THREE POINT SHOOTER NEXT YEAR.

Sam Wetherson

June 17th, 2009
1:45 pm

AGAIN ANYONE THAT ACTUALLY WATCHES THE HAWKS AND KNOWS BASKETBALL KNOW THAT MARVIN WILLIAMS IS A KEEPER. WOODY NEEDS TO SPREAD THE WEALTH AND STOP LETTING JJ AND BIBBY HOG THE BALL. 43% OF MARVIN’S SHOTS THIS SEASON WERE WITH 6 SECONDS OR LESS LEFT ON THE CLOCK. YOU GUYS HAVE LET ESPN HIGHLIGHTS INFLUENCE WHO YOU THINK IS GOOD AND WHO ISN’T.

FOR THE 100TH TIME–JOSH SMITH CAN’T PLAY THE 3 SPOT BUT MARVIN CAN PLAY THE 4. OUR BEST LINEUP THIS SEASON WAS BIBBY-FLIP-JJ-MARVIN-HORF!!

Sam Wetherson

June 17th, 2009
1:49 pm

*Completing this thought, Marvin was clearly comfortable asserting himself in Johnson’s absence on two occasions last season to beneficial effect for the club.

Thus, the difference between Butler and Williams is largely one of opportunity. Their career efficiency stats:

Name eFG% TS% 2PTFG 3PTFG AST% TO% OR% DR%
Butler 46.3 52.6 46.1 31.6 14.8 12.7 5.4 13.8
Williams 46.5 53.6 46.5 30.4 7.5 11.0 5.7 14.9

Outside of Butler’s far superior assist rate, there’s little differentiating these two per opportunity. Considering the possibility that, at 22, Marvin Williams 2008-09 three-point shooting (35.5% in 155 attempts) represents a new level of true talent where Butler, who has made less than 32% of his threes in five of seven NBA seasons (including two of his four in Washington) through the age of 28, is unlikely to improve to a similar degree in that respect and that Williams’ FT Rate is significantly better than Butler’s (34.6 v. 27.7) despite Butler’s excellent free throw percentage (85.2% for his career) it’s fair, I contend, to assume that Williams is more likely to score efficiently going forward even before accounting the circumstances* in which they compiled their numbers to date.

*Butler as a key component of Eddie Jordan’s motion offense; Williams as an afterthought in Mike Woodson’s motionless offense.

The difference between the two is opportunity. Again, career stats for both:

Name FGA/36 FTA/36 USG% PTS/36
Butler 13.7 4.5 22.7% 19.4
Williams 11.1 4.8 18.9% 14.5

Personally, I’d prefer the younger guy who gets to the free throw line more often, is a better rebounder, and has greater range better to complement the two young frontcourt players (Al Horford and Josh Smith*) who need more touches in the post. Which isn’t to say that it’s vital the Hawks keep Marvin Williams just that he still possesses enough potential that exchanging him for a slight upgrade at the small forward position (which is likely the easiest position at which to find a relatively cheap complementary player) rather than acquiring a young point guard or a big man who can defend and rebound is unlikely to make enough difference in the short term to outweigh the risk that Marvin Williams’ value (both on-court and trade value) may be on the cusp of increasing.

*Bradley, yesterday afternoon: “If the Hawks trade Josh, they lose me. (Unless it’s for Kobe.)” I think he’s on board with my premise in that regard.

hawktalk

June 17th, 2009
1:51 pm

We need our coach to develope a bench to play every night, not just when a starter gets too many fouls. It’s just a bunch of bull to expect a high level of play from a sub when for weeks even months his stat sheet is DNP coaches decision. Formula for success, develope your bench, add quality to the roster, don’t remove from the roster and run some sets other than dribble dribble shoot.

F.I.L.A

June 17th, 2009
1:53 pm

Sam Wetherson i agree with you 100%..I truly believe despite what all the people who try and knock marvins game like mark bradley say about him, That he will be an all-star before its over….The kid is a baller and has a HUGE upside..Make him the 2nd option and actually run some plays for him and I promise he will put up the same numbers as Caron Butler..13 ppg as a 4th option, If you know basketball then you know thats pretty solid..Just like if you know basketball you know marvin williams is going 2 be a problem in this league for a long time..POINT,BLANK,PERIOD!!!!

Lyon

June 17th, 2009
1:54 pm

Tyger is so dumb that…HE CAN NOT EVEN SPELL “TIGOR” CORRECTLY!

O'brien

June 17th, 2009
1:57 pm

Mark,

I like the trade idea, but I dont know why the Wizards would go for it. Their fans would not be happy trading Caron Butler for Marvin and Acie. Would they go for Caron Butler for Marvin and Speedy?

Mark Bradley

June 17th, 2009
1:59 pm

I’d agree that Josh Smith is not a small forward. (What, you want him further out on the floor?) But I don’t think Williams is a power forward, either.

Mark Bradley

June 17th, 2009
2:00 pm

I can’t imagine anyone would want Claxton over Law, O’brien. One sometimes plays. The other never plays.

Depressed Hawks Fan

June 17th, 2009
2:00 pm

Mark Bradley,

If we get Caron Butler, does that mean Al Horford is staying at C?

Mark Bradley

June 17th, 2009
2:01 pm

Yes. Rick Sund and I apparently comprise a minority of two: We both think Horford is a center.

Mark Bradley

June 17th, 2009
2:02 pm

Let me put it this way: Hasheem Thabeet is regarded as the No. 1 center in this draft. He’s not as good as Horford. Thabeet can’t score. But Horford can block shots.

Hugo

June 17th, 2009
2:16 pm

For no other reason, the Hawks would not part with Marvin because they wouldn’t admit to making a blunder when Chris Paul, Brandon Roy and Deron Wms were available and they did not get one of these GEMS. They would come out better to package somebody and a draft pick to Memphis for Gasol. Since we screwed over the other Gasol try and make up for the obvious screw up.

Chris

June 17th, 2009
2:24 pm

We need Ginobli!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I heard Washington was interested in him so why shouldnt we. He would open up the inside with his clutch shooting and winning mentality

Sam Wetherson

June 17th, 2009
2:26 pm

Mr. Bradley that fact that you would suggest starting Flip at the point makes me question whether or not you actually watch basketball or understand the game. If you did you would know why you never ever start Flip as your pg. With Josh Smith there are alot of if’s and will be’s. I choose to look at what is here and now. People saying that he will be the best player on the Hawks and he will do this and that. The best way to judge the future is to look at the past and present. Marvin Williams has consistently gotten better and has outgrown the role he is in. Josh Smith blocks have been decreasing, he is a turnover machine, he takes bad shots, doesn’t have a very good BBiq. God forbid he gets injuried and loses that explosiveness then what do you have—Kenyon Martin. Smart and skilled basketball players are superior to athletic players any day of the week. Josh SMith is trying to be something that he isn’t and refuses to play to his strengths.

Chris

June 17th, 2009
2:26 pm

Give them Joe for Ginobli and get Hedo Turkolu. Finally some real shooters on the court

Dr. Warren

June 17th, 2009
2:30 pm

Where is Acie’s much-lauded “upside”? I must be looking in the wrong direction. To get Butler, hell, send Acie and Marvin just for him alone. Forget Crittenton. And just as THE LOVE BOAT and FANTASY ISLAND once combined episodes, let’s combine Shultz’s blog with Bradley’s and get both Caron Butler AND Rafer Alston. With Alston’s past legal troubles, we could have ourselves another Eddie Johnson to lead the way. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafer_Alston

Mark Bradley

June 17th, 2009
2:46 pm

I can’t see the Hawks buying someone else’s big-name free agent. Not with so many of their own and the Spirit being, well, the Spirit.

And you’re right, Sam. I haven’t seen a game in 30 years. Do they still have the center jump after every basket?

jg

June 17th, 2009
2:56 pm

this is a tough one Mark!!!

i watched every game the Hawks played this year and when they really had it rolling it was because of the way Marvin Williams was playing. He was busting jumpers, driving it to the hole when needed and playing pretty good defense against some great players. I’m not a big fan of saying this guy is untouchable or that guy can’t do this or that. I am a huge fan of the Hawks and I want them to keep making progress toward a Championship in whatever way they have to. But I really do think this same team plus a true center can compete for the title.

I think that center is Chris Bosh! I know we’d have to be able to sign him long term and have to give up something–probably one of Marvin, Josh or Horford but this is the move to get us where we need to be. Let’s look at this way: Marvin for Bosh, Line up–Bibby, JJ, Josh, Horford and Bosh. Not many teams can put that type of starting lineup on the court. OK let’s say Josh Smith and our pick or Speedy or however it works out for Bosh. Line up: Bibby, JJ, Marvin, HOrford and Bosh. Still a fantastic starting five. Now Horford for Bosh. Line up: Bibby, JJ, Marvin, Josh and Bosh. Still a great group.

All of these scenarios seem to work–I just hope we don’t screw it up and blow up a team that can be really good the way it is…yea we may not win a title next year–but we’ll be better and then maybe something else opens up for us next year.

And by the way–the reason we didn’t get Robert Horry is that Babcock drafted a guy from Staford named Adam Keefe instead of the guy that now has six rings and played his college ball right here in the south at Alabama.

Good Luck Sund–this kind of thing is why your the man–Please do the right thing and get Bosh or try to get better thru the draft by getting a pg or c.

jg
chattanooga

terrell barron

June 17th, 2009
2:56 pm

Just heard another rumor for the millionth time. lol!!. Josh Smith and Acie Law to GS for Monte Ellis and Brandon Wright. Would you do it?

BHayley

June 17th, 2009
3:01 pm

Nice trade idea, Mark.

I’ve toyed with Marvin for Jamison for over a year, but Brandon & Woolvey laughed at me a year ago when I made that suggestion. Caron does play the 4, doesn’t he? I guess he’s a true 3. I’m all for this trade. I’ve said it for 2 years: We need a player next to Joe that scores 20 EVERY NIGHT. And Caron said after this season that it’s all about next year–that he’s gonna return better than he’s ever been

Sautee

June 17th, 2009
3:09 pm

Mark,

Not bad, but the key flaw is the assumption that Flip is a point guard. He’s a #2 who CAN play point, but that’s a HUGE difference.

When Flip DOES play the point, it robs him of his natural aggressiveness on offense, and he seems, all too often, to get hung up in the lane and turn the ball over too much. When he plays the 2 he ATTACKS the rim, without necessarily looking to pass.

I’d rather see him off the bench as our Vinnie Johnson.

Now if we signed Jack or Sessions, I could be comfy with the idea.

Homer

June 17th, 2009
3:09 pm

FIRE BRADLEY!!

Rod from College Park

June 17th, 2009
3:12 pm

Mark,

You are exactly correct about your feelings for Marvin. I doubt that the Wizards would make that trade. Caron is an all-star caliber player and Marvin is nowhere close. Despite all the people who say Marvin has gotten better, his number are down from last year. Maybe there is some kind of new math, which says if your numbers are worse, you are better. I have been out of school a little while now. Now, you also have to wonder if he will always be injury prone, because he constantly falls to the ground trying to finish at the rim and play defense. A back problem does not just go away, see Tmac. If anybody actually thinks that Marvin Williams can defend Lebron James, I would really like to know what kind of drugs you take. Mark, your initial thought is correct. Out of all of our starters, Marvin is easily the most replaceable, and someone with the ability of Caron Butler would surely help us tremendously. If any of you Marvin supporters actually have any of the playoff games recorded, Cleveland actually did leave Marvin wide open, when he was on the floor, and he did not hit one jump shot. I did not see Lebron get nervous one time when Marvin was guarding him either. This thought that Marvin is a great defensive player is almost laughable. I already posted earlier in the year all the stats of all these great players he supposedly shut down this year, and the only one who was held under his season average against the Hawks was Carmelo. Granger, Durant, Wallace, Lebron, Caron, Iguodala, Pierce, Thorton…. all had higher scoring averages against us than their season averages. Stop making excuses for this guy, and base his game on what you have seen. In three years with the Hawks, Marvin has been a serviceable player and that’s it. I do not like Mike Woodson as a coach at all, but I do know that if Marvin was such a great player, a guy with his job on the line, would force the ball to him, just like he does to Josh.

Mychelfromatl

June 17th, 2009
3:20 pm

Terrell…I heard that Hawks and Warriors trade rumor yesterday also.

O'brien

June 17th, 2009
3:24 pm

Mark,

I only suggested Speedy because he is an expiring contract, and that might convince the Wizards to make the trade. With Arenas being injured, and Acie being injured too, they might not be convinced to go Marvin and Acie.

ladyhawk

June 17th, 2009
3:41 pm

I like the proposed trade Mark.I must admit i am a huge Marvin fan and i love his game when he is healthy.However Caron is a more polished player and a slightly better shooter and is more assertive than Marvin.If the Hawks were to acquire Butler and Javaris and resign Flip and Zaza sign a veteran point like Jack or Kidd maybe draft a big,we could challenge the big boys in the east.This trade makes more sense than trading Josh or J.J.,now that would be absurd.Also i would love to see the hawks replace Mike Woodson he is the worst coach I have ever seen.I agree 100 percent with you Mark if they trade Josh they lose me too.

nique

June 17th, 2009
4:02 pm

Would love to see Marvin for Caron. How would Acie rate in this year’s draft?

6ft1height

June 17th, 2009
4:31 pm

Wizards aren’t stupid. Why would you trade an allstar for someone that is developing on their game. It just doesn’t make sense. Also, with the SALARY problem, the Wizards could trade players. Because the free agent in 2010 is big, they could trde players whose contract is expiring next year.

Jay

June 17th, 2009
4:47 pm

Caron Butler? I understand that he is a good player, has good shooting range, can drive to the basket, brings a certain toughness to a team and he’s not afraid to take the last shot but:
1) trading Williams for a small forward with a similar game doesn’t make much sense.
2) Butler was more deferential than Williams when he played in Miami and L.A. and wasn’t the fifth offensive option.
3) Butler was the number one option in Washington last year. With Arenas returning, he may be willing to settle back into the number two offensive option role, but I doubt he would be very happy as Atlanta’s number five offensive option behind JJ, Smith, the PG (assuming either Bibby or Murray is re-signed to be the starting point guard) and Horford.
4) you always have to wonder about anyone who is traded in a one-for-one dea lfor Kwame Brown–I know that was a cheap shot but I couldn’t resist. The real #4 is trading Williams for Butler does not address the Hawks’ biggest problem–upgrading the bench.

You described Williams as the least essential starter and I have to wonder how you’ve arrived at that conclusion. Yes, JJ is the team’s star player and Smith is becoming one; which means they’re going to get the bulk of the shots. Since Bibby and Murray are more shooters than play-makers, it seems to me that Williams, as well as Horford, have chosen (or have been chosen by Coach Woodson) to subordinate their offense and focus on other areas like defense and rebounding. Was Tayshaun Prince the least essential starter on the Detroit championship teams because he and Ben Wallace focused on defense and rebounding while while Billups, Hamilton and R. Wallace did the lion’s share of the scoring? Williams strikes me as someone who does what the coach tells him to do and we all know that no team that has all five guys focusing on offense can ever be successful.

Here are a couple of thoughts on improving the team’s record without major personnel changes. 1) Remember how Dennis Rodman could dominate a game without even taking a shot? If Josh Smith, with his unique skill-set, could be convinced to pattern his game after Rodman, imagine how dominate he could be. He could lead the league in rebounding and easily score over twenty per game with ten to fourteen of those coming on putbacks and tap-ins alone; freeing Williams, and Horford, to become move up on the offensive option list.

What If JJ was allowed to operate on the low block instead of in pick-and-roll situations with Bibby at top of the key. First, with his size and strength, he would be a nightmare for any SG to defend one-on-one without fouling him. Second, his effectiveness would force other teams to double-team him; leading to open shots for everyone else.

Sorry to disagree with you Mark but if the Hawks want to take the next step and truly compete for a championship, swapping small forwards is not the answer. They must get a starting PG who is similar to Chauncey Billups yet affordable (Antonio Daniels, Jarrett Jack and Sergio Rodriguez come to mind) and build a bench with the type of veteran players (like Drew Gooden, Malik Rose, Flip Murray) that Coach Woodson will play.

Jay

June 17th, 2009
4:50 pm

Sorry, should have read “imagine how dominant (instead of dominate) Smith could be”

niremetal

June 17th, 2009
4:53 pm

All jokes aside, you wrote more about the Braves than the Hawks during the NBA regular season. I checked – you wrote about them 9 times during the entire regular season. The sum of your post does suggest to me that you didn’t really pay much attention to the Hawks except at the beginning of the season and during the playoffs. It’s ok to admit you don’t watch them that much. Just don’t make yourself sound like an expert on them when you pay more attention to the Braves’ offseason than you do to actual Hawks games.

niremetal

June 17th, 2009
5:00 pm

I’ll put it another way: You wrote more columns about the Braves between January 22 and February 24 (10) than about the Hawks between November 1 and April 16 (9).

Mark Bradley

June 17th, 2009
5:03 pm

I’ve liked Caron Butler since his one season at Connecticut. I remember him almost beating the Maryland team that would win the NCAA title in the East final at Syracuse. I also remember there being an ice storm in Syracuse that weekend. I also remember having to drive to Rochester to fly out for economic reasons. I also remember buying a NorthFace hat to keep my ears from freezing and putting it on the expense report. (I wear the hat to this day — well, not today — and actually got reimbursed!)

Mark Bradley

June 17th, 2009
5:05 pm

Jarrett Jack is a good player, but he’s no Billups. We’ll have to disagree on that point, Jay.

Off Season Chatter « Stotts Era

June 17th, 2009
5:23 pm

[...] Mark Bradley wants to swap Marvin for Caron Butler [...]

[...] Read Mark Bradley’s view: Say goodbye to Marvin Williams, hello to Caron Butler [...]

BHayley

June 17th, 2009
5:46 pm

How can we have 8 owners yet they are broke? I thought these guys are millionaires

Ken Strickland

June 17th, 2009
6:39 pm

MARK BRADLEY-Marvin Williams isn’t the HC and he doesn’t design plays for himself, unfortunately. He’s an excellent jumpshooter, who can come of screens, yet Woodson hasn’t installed a single play that takes advantage of those skills. The few plays, or opportunities, that are called for him, usually involve him posting up and going one on one, or he’s the recipient of an open jumpshot.

Unfortunately, that is usually the case with JSmith and AHorford as well. Woodson’s OFF is guard oriented, and relies too much on isolations and one on one play, which is why JJohnson, MBibby and RMurray usually end up dominating the ball and the OFF.

You can’t have an effective OFF when you have too many players being aggressive and demanding the ball. I remember JJohnson complaining about having too many players trying to do their own thing and not playing enough team ball during the Celtic playoff series. Now you’re asking that Marvin Williams be traded because he won’t do more of what our star OFF player has complained about. Does that make sense to you?

It’s usually up to the head coach, and/or the PG to determine who gets the ball and how often, not each individual player. What you’re advocating is just as rediculous as those who advocate getting rid of JJohnson because they don’t think he takes charge enough, or doesn’t appear to be enough of a vocal leader.

If head coach Mike Woodson wanted more aggressiveness out of Marvin Williams, he’d incorporate him more into the OFF by designing and calling more plays for him. Do you remember when we played the Sonics in Seattle, Marvins home town, and Woodson and his teammates featured him in the OFF? Do you remember the outstanding all around gm he had? Marvin Wiiliams is a team player, and he’s working within the confines of our guard oriented OFF. He’s doing exactly what he feels Woodson expects of him.

IF YOU WANT MORE FROM MARVIN WILLIAMS, YOU DON’T TRADE HIM, YOU GET HEAD COACH MIKE WOODSON TO INCORPORATE HIM MORE INTO HIS OFF.

Big Ray

June 17th, 2009
6:43 pm

Mark,

I love these blogs. A subject like this always stirs the masses, and people pick sides quickly. Heh!

Every time Marvin Williams is compared to a player that produces more, the common refrain is that Marvin is going to be better than that other person. I’d love to agree, but the kid is just not showing it. Players who don’t show initiative just don’t end up being that good. I understand that Woody doesn’t know how to get the maximum out of ANYBODY on this roster.

But Marvin just keeps on deferring. Perhaps as Niremetal has suggested in other blogs, Marvin works better as a super sixth man- ala Lamar Odom or to a lesser extent, Charlie Villanueva.

Still doesn’t explain how some of us swear that someday soon we’re going to see the awesome-ness of our highest pick in the last decade or so (#2), while our #17 pick continues to outperform him despite being dumb, lazy, retarded, or whatever other derogatory adjective that half the Atlanta Hawks fan base wants to use to descripe him.

“Give Marvin the same number of shots Josh gets, and he’ll score 20 points a game.”

Uh, no. Not unless you can CONVINCE him to actually take those shots. Then you might be getting somewhere. Ever think that maybe Josh takes so many shots because Marvin WON’T, JJ is being triple-teamed (remember, this happens every time he touches the ball, on every play, in every game…heh..), Bibby can’t get an open look, and Horford’s already had his Woody-governed quota of 6 shots for the evening. No, seriously.

Here’s another good one: “Marvin’s our best perimeter defender.”

I’ll give credit to Marvin for improving his defense from “matador” to “can hold his own, and now uses his length to bother people on occasion.” But if you really think he’s our best perimeter defender, then what does that say about our three veteran guards? That’s right. Marvin is not a top notch defender. He MIGHT be better than average (he’s not consistent on defense yet). But if he’s the best we have on the perimeter, then you may as well go ahead and say that JJ, Bibby, and Flip suck. Mo Evans, too. Still proud that our best perimeter defender is a 6′9″ 245 lb forward who walks like an old cripple (sorry Marvin, love ya , but even “Snapper” Jones thinks so, and that dude is probably in his 60s. I’ll never forget him commentating during one of the regular season games, and asking, “How old IS that boy?”).

Anyway, Marvin is a good guy, and a good role player. He clearly has talent. Perhaps it takes a different kind of coach to light a fire under his arse, but then maybe he’s just passive for the most part. I don’t know. Give him Josh’s drive/attitude/intensity/desire, and you DO have a 20ppg scorer.

Besides age, that’s what truly separates Marvin from Caron. Well, that and about 7 points a game….

Mark Bradley

June 17th, 2009
6:45 pm

Thanks, Big Ray. Your insight is always appreciated.

Big Ray

June 17th, 2009
7:01 pm

Ken Strickland,

A word on Joe Johnson.

For someone who doesn’t like to be very vocal, he sure has no problems backing a transit bus right over his teammates. I recall him saying that some guys were trying to do too much.

Wait a minute. I’m confused. Joe says other guys are trying to do too much, yet he was also the guy hollering for veterans. He got ‘em.

Meanwhile, JJ supporters (and anybody who watches the games) agrees that he gets asked to do too much. And last I looked, nobody had the ball in their hands NEARLY as much as HE did. And I also recall him saying he WANTED the ball in his hands.

I’ll never understand how this works, except to say that Woody is most certainly PART of the problem. This is why the Hawks are inconsistent:

1)Woody. Need I say more?

2)Joe Johnson gets asked to do to much. He doesn’t have enough help out there. It really is true, in a way. Oh, the help might be there, but nobody really knows that.

3)Josh tries to do too much. Check that. He tries to do too many of the things that he’s not as good at as others are, and not always enough of the things he IS good at. Classic examples: Our pgs typically don’t run the break. Josh tries. Guys like Marvin don’t shoot the jumper enough. Josh tries.

4)Joe is complaining about people doing too much, but he’s the one who has the ball in his hands the most….by a WIDE margin. He’s also known for pounding the ball for large chunks of the shot clock, trying to figure out how to dribble past two defenders for a shot he might like.

5)Linked to point #4- Woody’s offense includes everybody standing around while Joe looks for the help. You know…the help that is out there trying to do too much….while it’s standing still watching Joe dribble the ball…while Joe looks for the help…oh, you get it by now.

6)Another facet of Woody’s offense- First half: give the ball to Horford and Williams, and watch them score with impunity. Second half: take the ball away and give it to JJ and Bibby. Meanwhile, Josh will keep trying to make up for the “lack of production” from Horford and Williams, while JJ tries shooting over two defenders (I’m sorry…three), and Bibby waits for an open look.

7)Our team defense doesn’t exist for long stretches during games. Remember, Marvin is our best perimeter defender. That should explain A LOT, shouldn’t it? And for those of you who want to blame Josh for the defense, he can’t carry the defense anymore than Joe can carry the offense. Oh yes, sauce for the gander is sauce for the other gander, no matter the flavor of the soup…

8)Woody has a clipboard/marker board. Somebody take that away. NOW.

Sautee

June 17th, 2009
7:07 pm

Big Ray

June 17th, 2009
7:08 pm

Ken Strickland,

Another word on Marvin. He reminds me too much of Calbert Cheaney, though more talented by a decent margin. Perfectly coachable, but largely unnoticeable in games. Steady as a rock, but not an ounce of dynamics. I agree that he is playing within the confines of the nightmare that is Woody’s offense, but he has to break free somehow. Seriously.

Josh does, and it doesn’t always work out, but sometimes it does. Imagine if Marvin did it?

Mark,

I’m not entirely sure I agree that Law has more upside than Crittendon. I mean, I’m not saying your wrong, but I guess I’m looking at him differently. Neither guy is a “great” shooter, but both can hit shots. I’m thinking Crittendon has a bit more range. I think Law is the better guy when it comes to being an actual, more traditional point guard. Crittendon on the other hand, is more apt to be able to play the PG or SG spot, I think.

How does that translate to who has more upside? I don’t know. But I can say this: neither guy has been in an ideal situation by far, and poor Crittendon is on his third team already. Law has at least been with one team and one coach. Not that this has been a GOOD thing, mind you…

Big Ray

June 17th, 2009
7:23 pm

Mark,

Thanks. Glad to be appreciated, or at least tolerated. :)

jdewayneatl

June 17th, 2009
7:34 pm

Oh Yeah: Who the heck really think that Gortat is the Center the Hawks need. ZAZA is pretty much the same player but better. Gortat is a better defender but has no offensive game except for catching passes and dunking because he was hella open after the opposing team left him. Gortat? Really?

That leads me to my next point. Horford is not the traditional sized Center but he could play the position. Al Horford can play the Center position for this team. He has held his own and played like a man in his brief career. He is 6′10” and 245 lbs. If Nene (6′11” and 250), Amare Staudamire (6′10” and 249), Emeka Okafor (6′10” and 255), Kendrick Perkins (6′10” and 280), Sam Dalembert (6′10” and 250), Troy Murphy (6′ll” and 245), Andris Biedrins (6′ll and 240) can all play the center position, well then Al Horford can play Center for the Hawks. Even Ben Wallace (6′9” and 240) has played much of his career at the 5 spot including 2004 when he won a Championship with Detroit. He probably wont grow an inch but I’m sure he’ll come into next season with atleast an extra 5-10 lbs.

There’s only a hand full of Centers in the league that may give Horford problems but at the same time those hand full of Centers gives headaches match-up problems throughout the league. That hand full of centers would include Dwight Howard, Yao Ming, Pau Gasol and Shaq.

So before suggesting to trade one of the core players for a Center, his name better be Howard, Ming, or Gasol. And we know that that’s not gonna happen. Hawks fans stop WHINNING!!!!!

GO HAWKS!!!!!

truth-serum

June 17th, 2009
7:37 pm

Marvin Williams is a very good player who enter the pros after 1 year of college. He is much better than Schutlz the hate master or Mo dumb Bradley. He averaged More rebounds than Pachulia, the slowest man with the shortest vertical leap in the NBA.

Shultz and Bradley have the basketball wisdom of a hillbilly and yet they try to describe the terms of the Hawks Growth. Lets trade Schultz and Bradley for… a second round pick…Do you think we’d get any taker?

Marvin William will be a star in this league and gets to the line better than anybody on the team, and suddenly better than Bradley and Schultz who bring nothing but narrow racist views to the table.

truth-serum

June 17th, 2009
7:57 pm

jdewayneatl

June 17th, 2009
7:34 pm

Marvin Williams got more rebounds this year than ZAZA the continuing turnover! And Marvin is a 2/3. HAWKS DEFINITELY NEED A CENTER.

The reason Horford is not a “traditionally sized center” is he is a powerforward…Dah. He almost broke his ankle last year trying to drive on a real center.

If we follow the strategy of Mo dumb bradley, we wont get a center, will trade marvin, draft another rumiel robinson, wear down our powerforward until hes injury prone, while the guy we hired to start at center sits on the bench because he cant run,jump,block or alter shots. With this Brilliant stratergy from Mo dumb Bradley and Jeff, head dragon of the bubba crew, the hawks would not get out of the first round of the play offs and they would set woodson up to be their fall guy.

Any NBA powerforward can give you “MINUTES” at the center position but not a career. There is no soundness Mo dumb and Bubba’s view. NO TEAM GET TO THE FINALS WITH OUT AN ATHLETIC CENTER. THE HAWKS WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY TO WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP WITH THIS TALENTED CREW IS ABOUT 5 YEARS. THEN IT GOES THE WAY OF THE DALLAS MAVERICKS AND THE PHOENIX SUNS… NICE TEAMS BUT NOT CHAMPIONSHIP MATERIAL…

GET A CENTER!!

truth-serum

June 17th, 2009
8:18 pm

Homer

June 17th, 2009
3:09 pm

FIRE BRADLEY!!

Let me second the call for Bradley firing. Take ken and barbee…I mean ken and ray with you.

O'brien

June 17th, 2009
8:40 pm

As long as Woody is the coach, we will never know just how good a team we can be.

How good would Horford or Josh be if we played inside out? We don’t know.

How good would Acie be if he got consistent PT? We don’t know.

How good would Marvin be if Woody ran some plays for him? We don’t know.

How good would JJ be if he didnt play 40 mpg, and if he wasnt forced to guard Bibby’s guy quite often? We don’t know.

Why, because of Woodson. That, we do know.

Sautee

June 17th, 2009
8:42 pm

“Any NBA powerforward can give you “MINUTES” at the center position but not a career.”

Ummm, Ben Wallace? Dave Cowens? Wes Unseld?

Sautee

June 17th, 2009
8:57 pm

O’brien

Quite true

jdewayneatl

June 17th, 2009
9:13 pm

truth-serum

June 17th, 2009
8:18 pm

So Horfords a “PF?” True, Horford fits the PF position well. But so would ALL of the players I Iisted and there’s more. Those players (Staudamire, Nene, Okafur, Perkins, and so on) are all starters, I didn’t get to the bench players who are of similar size of Horford. I guarantee you that you will find more Centers who have “PF bodies” than you would a legit 7-footer who’s much better than Horford or any of those other “PF’s” who play at the position.

The fact remains that the only way to get a legitimate starting C is to draft one. Teams don’t give up legit 7-footers with any type of upside. The Lakers labeled Andrew Bynum “untouchable” after proving he could play half a season. Do some homework and tell me how many legit 7-foot all-star caliber centers have changed teams in their prime in the last 20 years. I can name 2 off top if you count Alonzo Morning. The other is Shaq.

Everyone talks about getting a Center but can anyone suggest a Center that would make the Hawks starting frontline better. And not a wish upon a star… suggest one that they Hawks actually have an opportunity to get.

I’ll start. How about Eric Dampier? Wait, wait, I have one… Zydrunas Ilgauskus. No,no… How about Brendan Heywood? Andrew Bogut (the #1 pick in the Chris Paul draft is doing great in Milwaukee – let’s trade Josh Smith for Bogut. David Lee is a Double Double guy, but wait that’s another “PF” playing Center. I’m sorry. Come to think about it Marvin wasn’t the only pick the Hawks gaffed on. To draft Horford over the dominant Hawes is inexplicable. I don’t know… maybe I’m not doing a good job. Can anyone help me?

jdewayneatl

June 17th, 2009
9:20 pm

Oh yeah… I’d very much rather be the Mavericks and Suns over the 6 or 7 years than what the Hawks have been over the past decade except for this past season.

glw

June 17th, 2009
9:27 pm

jdewayneatl,

I agree with you too. I get tired of hearing all these people say we need a Center. Horford is more than capable of manning significant minutes at the Center. And like you said there are only a handful of Centers that gives him problems and they are the same ones that gives everyone else problems. If we got someone that can give us 15-20 minutes of tough physical play at the 5 in relief of Horford, then I am fine….Zaza, Gortat, whomever it is. Im fine. Im more interested in the point guard and who is going to play there.

darrell starks

June 17th, 2009
10:09 pm

glw i agree with you to why do people always get caught up in to the player height dennis rodman charles barkley mosses malone wes unsel it not the height of a person its how you position your self and nowing how to box out when it come to rebounding.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!

Mark Bradley

June 17th, 2009
10:15 pm

One other thing about Al Horford: He can score some points at center. I’m not sure he’d score much at power forward. He’s better with his back to the goal than he is facing up and shooting jumpers. And if you paired a non-scoring center — Hasheem Thabeet, say — with Horford at power forward … well, you wouldn’t have much in the way of post offense.

RealSquawk

June 17th, 2009
10:43 pm

niremetal,
thank-you

I still don’t understand why people can’t see that Marvin is the guy you keep. You don’t trade away people improve something like he did over the summer, you don’t trade away someone who plays his role Mike Woodson asks for 15 to 16 and thats what you get. When he asked for 20 plus even though it was only needed twice you got the 20 plus and you got it in a more productive way then Joe.

Come on Josh Smith vs. Marvin Williams. One gets you out of your seat and the other plays basketball. One has a focus issue the other always comes to play shot going down or not. They both graduated the same year from high school one has been in the league a year longer, but who is more solid of a basketball player??? Who has the pass four summers working on his dribbling and his jump shot and his post moves with NBA stars? And who spent a summer working on his three point range? Who came back with those skill improved? Who has potential?

Ill say it again why trade either? But if you are going to trade someone please make it the person who can get us something that will get us out of the semi finals. Caron however so exciting isn’t going to get it done. Cause guess what? We got a small forward and guess what he is young? Wait isn’t that reason you all still have hope for Josh.

Do we go by age or years in the league. Because I thought years in the league were more important, but somebody knows how to play a season with a little consistency and someone knows how to come to play.

You want to talk about potential? Let’s look at it like this. One guy we are hoping can bring it all together (we fail to mention he has no post game, he can’t dribble, he doesn’t listen, and he makes bad decisions) that’s a lot to put together. And the other well the other lets see hmmm. needs to be more assertive? Or do you mean he needs to be more exciting? Think about it before you answer?

Assertive adjustment vs. learning how to play basketball.

By the way when you say someone needs to be more assertive you are saying they got the tools lets get him the ball more( something not in his control unless he wants to whine and pout like a little Smi I mean kid) .Period. When you say you are waiting for someone to get some post moves learn not to dribble up the court which i completely blame on the Antione Walker experiment and come to play or at least bring something to table every game it’s not a question of who you keep. Its a question of how long do you give the other guy?

Trade Marvin for what? ????????
And just going off PER I don’t like using stats, but I will through this one out there
Josh SMith for his position 19
Marvin Williams for his 13
If you take out the guys who played less than 60 games Josh moves to 15
Marvin Williams moves to 9

Just a stat or culmination of efficiency.

and MArk i was serious about you coming up with some grand trade Josh Smith scenario. It would be so much more relevant. Trade MArvin what are you trying to do take the heat off you boy?

MARVIN TRADE MARVIN?

dusty

June 17th, 2009
10:47 pm

Hard to even bother with articles like this. Why would the Wizards want to get younger?

The AJC needs to stop it with their columnists writing about the NBA. None of those guys seem to have any sort of reasonable grasp of what is going on with the Hawks or the rest of the league for that matter.

cory

June 17th, 2009
10:50 pm

Marvin has shown that he can score at will and defend some of the best scorers in the league. no one on this team is a better defender. he average over 30 pts with joe out of the game. that shouldve been a sign to woody. the only reason i would go along with trading marvin or even josh is to see how much they would punish woody for never playing through the whole talented team. acie has to go or he’ll never play. woody is a horrible coach. this team couldve easily been in the top 3 teams in the east, if it werent for him. he has held this team back for 2 long. does anybody know where avery johnson is? i havent anything about him since he was fired. i think the hawks would do well under him? opinions?

cory

June 17th, 2009
10:56 pm

i also have to agree w realsquawk. very valid points. i would willingly trade josh before marvin

niremetal

June 17th, 2009
11:22 pm

To be honest, I’m terrified to see what happens if either Josh or Marvin leaves town and lands with a coach who knows how to maximize their unique skill sets. Marvin held LeBron to 16 points during the 35 minutes he was in the game against him in February. When he went to the bench, LeBron racked up 10 points in 4 minutes. When JJ went down with the flu while the Heat were nipping at our heels in the standings, Marvin led us to two wins on the road. But as soon as JJ came back, Marvin was relegated to being a spot-up shooter waiting on the perimeter.

And don’t get me started on Josh. He’s a player who is unstoppable when he gets the ball in motion anywhere within 12 feet of the basket, but on 80% or more of our plays, Woody has him standing still 25 feet away from the basket.

As I said, I’m terrified to see what’ll happen if either of them goes. They’d make us forget all about how badly we misused Diaw…

chris warr

June 17th, 2009
11:22 pm

keep marvin, we need size!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! , like a center. The Bulls have a big backup center that would be perfect. Aaron Gray I think is his name. Also we need our point guards to play some d. Bibby has slow foot speed, although if you loose him he our best 3 point shooter.

Mark Bradley

June 17th, 2009
11:26 pm

I feel your angst, Nire. But I just don’t think Marvin Williams will ever be selfish enough — in a good way — to be an All-Star. It’s just not in his makeup.

Rufus1

June 17th, 2009
11:41 pm

I don’t want to trade Josh, Marvin or AL until we get a new coach, but someone has to go.

WILL ANY OF YOU JOSH SUPPORTERS GIVE ONE TANGIBLE IMPROVEMENT IN HIS GAME, OVER THE PAST 5 YEARS….JUST ONE!!!!!!

Jody

June 17th, 2009
11:44 pm

Mark,

The fact that Horford is a back to the basket player is exactly why you play him at the four. Watch the games and see the varying degrees of difficulty for Horford trying to back down bigger guys as oppossed to guys who are his size or smaller. It’s not always about Horford is a better player than this guy or that guy. Size and length has A LOT to do with it. Just ask Dwight Howard if the size of Bynum and Gasol (who a bigger but not as good as Howard) didn’t matter.

On another note, it’ll be interesting to see what the Hawks do come draft time. I don’t buy the rumors about Josh Smith at all. I just think some so called journalists may have an axe to grind.

The Truth

June 17th, 2009
11:45 pm

All this talk about trading Marvin for Butler, I still think Charlie V @ SF would be more doable because he may become available. Charlie V gives you offense with length. Like Hedo, he would be a match-up problem, big-time, for most SF defender. He would bring balance to our tweener frontline because of his length. Based on the playoff results, we need to be getting longer not shorter. This Butler trade is just a fantasy anyway; it won’t happen. Nice try Mark.

truth-serum

June 17th, 2009
11:45 pm

2009 PLAYOFFS

Player G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF TOT APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG

Al Horford 9 9 28.0 .424 .000 .667 1.30 4.40 5.80 2.0 .67 .67 .44 2.90 6.9

THIS IS NOT A STARTING CENTER. IM SORRY.

truth-serum

June 17th, 2009
11:51 pm

chris warr

June 17th, 2009
11:22 pm

DITTO ON GREY. THE YOUNG MAN IS IMPOSING AND WILL ONLY GET BETTER AND IS A NATURAL CENTER!

O'brien

June 17th, 2009
11:56 pm

Think about this. How hard would it be to get a small forward to put up the kind of numbers Marvin puts up? 14 ppg,6.3 rpg, in 34 mpg. I think it’s easy to find productive wings, and those numbers are replaceable.

Whereas with Josh, his numbers are not jaw-dropping, but he still has the potential to be an All-Star. Does anybody think Marvin has all-star potential?

If Josh gets his head straight, he can be an impact player (offense and defense). Marvin is not an impact player. He is a solid role player, and for a guy who was picked #2 in the draft, he needs to be more than a solid role player.

O'brien

June 17th, 2009
11:58 pm

The Truth,

I like Charlie V coming off the bench (he can provide some backup minutes at PF and SF), but he will probably cost $5-$6 mil. Can the Hawks afford him? Will Milwaukee let him go (he is a restricted FA)?

Mark Bradley

June 18th, 2009
12:00 am

I second that emotion, O’Brien.

jdewayneatl

June 18th, 2009
12:04 am

glw,

Those are my sentiments exactly. People seem to forget that he has averaged almost a double double in both his rookie and sophomore season at the Center position… with nearly 10 rpg. He know’s how to rebound.

Mark Bradley,

Yes he’s a better offensive player than Thabeet and he could block shots (not Thabeet like but he blocks shots). And just like you say his game is on the post, back to the basket. But I also see him developing that 15-footer this summer, similar to how Marvin developed and improved his 3-point range. Horford would score more, just as Williams would, if more plays were called for him. But the entire offense goes through Joe. If Woody could develop an offense that didn’t have Joe as the first option every play, the other Hawks players would develop their offensive games and cause havoc for defenses.

We could see a little of it already. Its something like what Orlando has… multiple offensive threats. Joe’s supporting cast has learned how to play off of him. Now its time for Joe to step up his “leadership by doing” by learning how to and showing that he could play off of the other guys.

And that’s the key to the upcoming season – Whether or not Woody could create an offense which not only are J-Smoov, Al, Williams, and the “unnamed” pg are playing off of Joe but also one in which Joe is playing off of Al, J-Smoov, and Williams. Charles Barkely said it during the playoffs that the Hawks were not utilizing Al’s passing and playmaking abilities. The talent is there. Woody and Joe are responsible for harnessing and exploiting that talent.

truth-serum

June 18th, 2009
12:14 am

cory

June 17th, 2009
10:50 pm

A COACH IS LIMITED BY THE TALENT OR LACK THERE OF AROUND HIM. LET FACT IT,ACIE, ZAZA, SOLOMAN , MARIO WEST, OTHELLO HUNTER,THOMAS GARDNER AND SPEEDY CLAXTON, WOULD BE STARTERS ON 0…ZERO..NILL…NONE…NADA NBA TEAMS. THATS SEVEN SCRUBBS THAT YOU EXPECT WOODY TO OWN THE NBA WITH. GET REAL. ALMOST ALL OF THEM WOULD GET NO SIGNIFICANT TIME ON ANY OTHER TEAM IN THE NBA.
GREAT JOB FROM WOODY TO GET WHAT HE GOT FROM HIS ROTATION. ID TRADE ALL OF THESE SEVER DWARFS FOR ONE…1….UNO…ICHIBAN…CENTER.

IN PRO SPORTS YOU EITHER STEP UP WHEN GIVING A CHANCE OR YOU DO LIKE KONCAK, RUMEAL ROBINSON, ACIE LAW OR ZAZA PACHULIA. ALL OF THESE GUYS SHOWED TALENT AS AMATURES, BUT DID NOT PAN OUT AS PROS

GUYS LIKE KEN AND BIG RAY REMIND ME OF MOTHER WHO WHINE ABOUT THE COACH WHEN THEIR SONS DONT MAKE THE TEAM. ITS NOT THE COACHES FAULT THESE GUYS ARE SCRUBBS AND DONT STEP UP WHEN GIVEN THE CHANCE. THEYVE ALL BEEN GIVEN THE CHANCE. QUIT WHINNING.

RealSquawk

June 18th, 2009
12:20 am

O’Brein,

I think Marvin can and will be an All Star.
That’s at least one person.

And how expensive is a lobotomy because that is what you guys are asking for with Smith. This isn’t three years in Smith this is what five years in Smith. What you see with his demeanor is what you get. If he changes thanks for the miracle.

Now with Marvin all we need to do is ask. All we need to do is Ask. All we need to do is Ask. All we need to do is Ask.

Smith needs a lobotomy. Do they even do those anymore?

Ariose

June 18th, 2009
12:21 am

“Outside of Butler’s far superior assist rate, there’s little differentiating these two per opportunity. Considering the possibility that, at 22, Marvin Williams 2008-09 three-point shooting (35.5% in 155 attempts) represents a new level of true talent where Butler, who has made less than 32% of his threes in five of seven NBA seasons (including two of his four in Washington) through the age of 28, is unlikely to improve to a similar degree in that respect and that Williams’ FT Rate is significantly better than Butler’s (34.6 v. 27.7) despite Butler’s excellent free throw percentage (85.2% for his career) it’s fair, I contend, to assume that Williams is more likely to score efficiently going forward even before accounting the circumstances* in which they compiled their numbers to date.”

“*Butler as a key component of Eddie Jordan’s motion offense; Williams as an afterthought in Mike Woodson’s motionless offense.”

“Personally, I’d prefer the younger guy who gets to the free throw line more often, is a better rebounder, and has greater range better to complement the two young frontcourt players (Al Horford and Josh Smith*) who need more touches in the post. Which isn’t to say that it’s vital the Hawks keep Marvin Williams just that he still possesses enough potential that exchanging him for a slight upgrade at the small forward position (which is likely the easiest position at which to find a relatively cheap complementary player) rather than acquiring a young point guard or a big man who can defend and rebound is unlikely to make enough difference in the short term to outweigh the risk that Marvin Williams’ value (both on-court and trade value) may be on the cusp of increasing.”

Link:

http://www.hoopinionblog.com/2009/06/marvin-williams-v-caron-butler.html

The Truth

June 18th, 2009
12:21 am

O’brien
With this Marvin – Butler trade, the question become, if we are whining about Marvin qualifying 7.3M contract and his market demand potential, why would we spend 3M more and pickup Butler current contract of 10.5M? At least Charlie qualifying contract is only 4.6M. If the stories in Mil are half true, he could be available. Even as a RFA, we could take a shot and make a bid or work out a sign-and-trade and throw in Speedy.

HawkKingBibby

June 18th, 2009
12:24 am

Mark I did a little research and now Im almost positive Speedy has to be included in your trade. If Marv hits the byc number on his new deal ( which for him I think would be any contract staring around 6.5 mil or over ) then the Hwks can only take back half the salary in a trade. So lets say Marv signs a deal staring at 7 mil a season, well the Hawks can only take back 3.5 mil in salary ( or within 20% of that). So the Hawks would have to add Speedy (who’s nickname should be BYC Krytonite) to match salaries with the Wizards Butler. The problem is this makes the trade even worse for the Wiz because not only will Speedy’s 6 mill and change count on their cap but Marv will count as a full 8 mil or maybe even more depending on the average per year of his deal. So they will be taking more salary back then they send and they will be in a worse cap situation then they were already in. The only way is to get Marv to sign a deal staring just under the byc # which again I think is in the 6.5 mil range for him but I will have to do a little more research.

HawkKingBibby

June 18th, 2009
12:28 am

I cant believe I spelled the word starting without the second T 3 times. That will teach me not to proof read.

Ariose

June 18th, 2009
12:28 am

Marvin Williams 08-09 Season Highlights:

Link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC5aLzd2HkE

I just want to make sure that you guys realize that we’d be giving up on a 22 year old, who scores 15ppg as the 5th option and never has plays run for him and he doesn’t need to dominate the ball in order for all of that to happen. Remeber how his numbers spiked when Joe was out and he got all those touches? Way more efficent than Caron Butler in my opinion. Caron gets a ton of touches and isn’t giving you too much more, If Marvin got Caron’s touches he’s probably LIVE at the FT line and average 8-14 more points a game….

Mark Bradley

June 18th, 2009
12:30 am

Yeah, and I’ve since realized Acie makes twice as much as Crittenton. And people in D.C. keep saying the Wizards are looking to gear up, not cut costs. (I’ve heard it both ways.)

So maybe we should go back to my original idea: Speedy for Dwight Howard.

Ariose

June 18th, 2009
12:35 am

We need to trade into the draft. We should draft all four of these guys: Patrick Mills, Tyler Hansbrough, Wayne Ellington, and Danny Green. Then sign eveybody back and sign Gerald Green….we’ll have arguably the most talented bench in the leauge…..and for the cheap too. We’ll just have to have a Center by committe with Hansbrough,Smoove, AL, Zaza, and Solo all contributing to wreak havoc down low, I think we’ll be just fine.

We’ll have evey position backed up extremely well and Joe will finally be able to get some rest. Not to mention lots of trading chips if we do decide to deal for a big man.

Ariose

June 18th, 2009
12:36 am

Oh yeah, and Trade Randolph and Speedy to ge into the draft…..

truth-serum

June 18th, 2009
12:38 am

2009 PLAYOFFS

Player G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF TOT APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG

Al Horford 9 9 28.0 .424 .000 .667 1.30 4.40 5.80 2.0 .67 .67 .44 2.90 6.9

THIS IS NOT A STARTING CENTER. IM SORRY. TO AVERAGE 1 OFFENSIVE REBOUND 4.4 DEFENSIVE REBOUNDS 2 ASSISTS NO STEALS NO BLOCKS 3 PERSONAL FOULS AND 6.9 POINTS IN NOT GOING TO CUT IN PAST THE FIRST ROUND. THIS IN NOT A NBA CENTER. IF YOU GET PAST YOUR HATRED OF WOODSON AND DEAL WITH REALITY MARK MO DUMB BRADLEY, YOU WILL REALIZE JUST HOW WEAK WE ARE AT THE CENTER POSITION.

truth-serum

June 18th, 2009
12:41 am

Mark Bradley

June 18th, 2009
12:30 am

So maybe we should go back to my original idea: Speedy for Dwight Howard.
YOU MAY NOT KNOW BASKETBALL BUT YOU ARE CERTAINLY FUNNY. GOOD ONE!

The Truth

June 18th, 2009
12:41 am

Mark
As I said, this Marvin-Butler idea won’t happen.

Oh well, what the hell, we got nothing better to do until Mr. Sund exactly does something. Perhaps we should hold our breath on that as well.

RealSquawk

June 18th, 2009
12:48 am

Hey Mr. Bradley

do you only read the post where people agree with you
well here we go. Marvin for caron would help the team for about two seasons.

mean while in Washington Marvin Williams proves his worth in this new offensive season in featuring passing and motion.

why don’t you blog or write about the real problem instead of a person who actually tries to play the game respectively.

jdewayneatl

June 18th, 2009
12:48 am

O’brien,

I feel where you’re coming from, especially on the Charlie V thing. I could tell that you are a big Marvin fan. And I must say that I love his talent too. But to say that Smith’s stats aren’t jawdropping compared to Williams is just not acknowledging the truth. This is a guy that averaged 17.2 ppg 8.2 rpg 3.4 apg 2.8 bpg and 1.5 spg in the 07-08 season when he missed only one game. Those numbers says alot about insane activity on the court. I root for Marvin but you can’t deny Smith’s unique talent. 10 more points per game, without a name above the stats, most people would assume it was Lebron, Kobe, or Wade with a down year on the assists end lol. But 3.5 for a PF is great number. Pau Gasol lead all PF’s this season with 3.5 apg.

Jody,

I have Mark’s back on this one. I’ve said it before, there are numerous players Horford’s size who he compete’s with more regularly than he does a player he is totally outmatched. The Hawk’s even had a remedy for Dwight Howard’s dominance during the season. There are actually more guy’s shy of 7-foot playing Center than there are 7-footers all together, not to mention those that are actually a force on the court. Most times THEY JUST LOOK BIG.

Truth-serum,

Kevin Garnett averaged 0.0 ppg 0.0 rpg 0.0 bpg 0.0 apg. Why? Because he was injured. Al and Marvin were injured throughout the playoffs, so of course Al’s stats are gonna be down. And if Grey was a better Center I’m sure he wouldn’t be the 3rd option off the bench for the Bulls. Again, bigger does not mean better.

RealSquawk

June 18th, 2009
12:49 am

Ariose,

are these your vids?

jdewayneatl

June 18th, 2009
1:04 am

“They even had a remedy for Dwight Howard’s dominance.” Well atleast for one game lol!

truth-serum

June 18th, 2009
1:17 am

jdewayneatl

June 18th, 2009
12:48 am

GREY IS A ROOKIE. ITS HIS FIRST YEAR. JUST KEEPING IT REAL FOR ALL YOU PEOPLE WHO SAY THERES NO REAL CENTER TALENT OUT THERE. IF YOU HAVENT SEEN THE MAN PLAY JUST ASK
chris warr
June 17th, 2009
11:22 pm

I AGREE THAT AL WORE DOWN AND ALMOST BROKE HIS LEG TRYING TO PLAY CENTER AGAINST THE BIG BOYS. HE WASTES SO MUCH ENERGY USING HIS ATHLETICISM TO AVERAGE LESS THAN 10 REBOUNDS A GAME DURING THE REGULAR SEASON THAT IT WEARS DOWN HIS NUMBERS AND AS WE SAW IN THE PLAYOFF IT WILL ULTIMATLEY BECOME A HEALTH RISK. 9 REBOUNDS AND 9 POINTS AVERAGE FOR A GAME DOES NOT MAKE A GOOD CENTER IN THE NBA. HES AVERAGE TO MEDIOCRE AS A CENTER, BUT EVEN THAT IS BETTER THAN PACHULIA WHO WAS LESS OF A REBOUNDER THAN MARVIN WILLIAM WHO IS A GUARD/FORWARD. JUST KEEPING IT REAL. LOOKING AT STATS INSTEAD OF POPULARITY. I LIKE HORFORD TOO, AT POWER FORWARD AND FACING THE BASKET! HE COULD GET HIS NUMBERS UP IF HE PLAYED HIS NATURAL AND DRAFTED POSITION, POWER FORWARD

KEVIN GARNETT IS ALSO A PF AND WAS NOT IN THE PLAY OFFS BUT IF YOU COMPARE HIS REGULAR SEASON AGAINST HORFORDS, GARNETT AVERAGED 15.8 POINTS TO LESS THAN 10 FOR HORFORD. GARNETT ALSO AVERAGE 1 STEAL 1BLK 84% FROM THE LINE.

Ariose

June 18th, 2009
1:18 am

Squawk, Nah. I need to get the proper eqipment and start making my own though lol. Lord, knows i’ve got enough footage lol.

That Particular person just happens to be one of my favorite video makers. I usually got to him when I have a request.

truth-serum

June 18th, 2009
1:28 am

jdewayneatl

June 18th, 2009
1:04 am

HOWARD DID NOT PLAY IN THE GAME THE HAWKS BE THE MAGIC.

Ariose

June 18th, 2009
1:31 am

Check this out

Link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2j4TdxzOTEo

Stephen Jackson Throwback(Atlanta Hawks Edition)

James

June 18th, 2009
1:36 am

this is how the hawks lineup should look next year if they made all the right moves.

pg: rafer alston/flip murray
sg: joe johnson/ramon seccesions
sf: richard jefferson/charlie villaneuva
pf: al horford/zaza pachulia
c: hasheem thabeet/rasheed wallace

truth-serum

June 18th, 2009
1:50 am

Mark Bradley

June 17th, 2009
10:15 pm

One other thing about Al Horford: He can score some points at center. I’m not sure he’d score much at power forward. He’s better with his back to the goal than he is facing up and shooting jumpers. And if you paired a non-scoring center — Hasheem Thabeet, say — with Horford at power forward … well, you wouldn’t have much in the way of post offense.

2009 PLAYOFFS

Player G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF TOT APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG

Al Horford 9 9 28.0 .424 .000 .667 1.30 4.40 5.80 2.0 .67 .67 .44 2.90 6.9

THIS IS WHY I CALL YOU MO DUMB BRADLEY. 42% IS NOT A FINISHER IN THE LOW POST. 6.9 POINTS PER GAME IS NOT SCORING IN THE POST 1 OFFENSIVE AND 4 DEFENSIVE REBOUNDS IS NOT A REBOUNDER WITH 0 BLOCKS IS NOT A FORCE IN THE POST. DUDE THIS AINT CUTTING IT. GET REAL. WHAT IS THIS LIKE THE POLITICS OF SILLY?
THIS IS A FUNNIER JOKE THAN THE SPEEDY FOR DWIGHT TRADE.

niremetal

June 18th, 2009
3:11 am

People who watch enough Hawks games know that Marvin can play. Just because a guy does what he wants him to doesn’t mean that being assertive isn’t in his DNA. Throughout his career – college and NBA – Marvin has done whatever has been asked of him and done it damned well. At UNC he played the Manu role of coming off the bench to be a sparkplug on both ends. In Atlanta, he came into an environment where there were 3 guys (JJ and the Joshes) who all were basically competing for the same pile of minutes (before everyone figured out that Smoove is a PF). He played whatever position was needed, and played it well. Woody told him to come back with a 3-point shot, and he came back with the smoothest outside stroke on the Hawks besides JJ’s.

He developed into our top perimeter defender to take pressure of JJ and Josh (who had to play less help defense this year thanks to Marvin stepping it up). And when JJ went down, Marvin took over as our main offensive weapon. As soon as JJ came back, Marvin went back to being the defensive and perimeter shooting specialist he’d been before.

People who watch the games know that Marvin is a very good player. He’s not LeBron, but he doesn’t have to be. You don’t want a team with 5 chiefs and 0 Indians on the floor. Teams like that don’t contend for titles. Marvin is a Lamar Odom type who will come in and do whatever is needed to help the team win. He’s a lot like JJ was before he left Phoenix – stuck in a system where the true extent of his abilities have been subordinated for the good of the team.

Everyone who watched the Hawks between December and March (when Marvin went down hurt) and didn’t have a preexisting bias based on Marvin’s draft position saw the same thing – Marvin was having a breakout year (as Sekou himself said), even though his stat line wasn’t showing it. He played tenacious defense on LeBron and Pierce, was driving to the rim and drawing fouls with no fear, and stroking 3s with a hand in his face. And he did it all without a single play being run for him unless JJ was resting or out injured.

You don’t trade guys like that. If we got rid of him, we’d have to find someone else who would do what he does. You make it sound like it’s easy to find players as talented as Marvin who are willing to put the good of the team above the good of their own stat line. It’s not. If it were, the Lakers would have viewed Lamar Odom as expendable and the Bulls would have traded Toni Kukoc to one of the many teams who wanted to make him their franchise player.

My guess is that Sund realizes that, Mark, even if you don’t. Because I suspect if you’d watched more Hawks games between Dec and March, you’d feel differently about Marvin.

JC

June 18th, 2009
4:41 am

I love how a ton of the comments here balk at the deal with the rationale of Acie for Critts? No Wayzors!

Give me a break! Acie for Critts is a swap of nothing, why is everyone here so apt to keep Acie Law? I saw him shoot in college, but I can’t say he’s done that in the pros…granted you have to get off the bench first.

If the Wiz would be crazy enough to unload Caron for Marvin and filler, Sund would have to take them up on it, even if it means losing the great Acie Law IV.

Sautee

June 18th, 2009
9:23 am

Truth serum,

Yes or no question for you. Do you consider Andrew Bogut (7′ 0″, 260) to be a “true center” as you call it?

YES or NO?

TheSecretWeapon

June 18th, 2009
9:53 am

The Wizards are not looking to cut costs, as Mr. Bradley finally acknowledges in a comment above. Even if they were, they almost certainly would look someplace other than Butler, who is productive and signed to a reasonable deal. If the Wizards are to be involved, the 5th pick plus one of the youngsters would be a more realistic deal for Williams, depending on the vagaries of the league’s trade and cap rules. Something like the pick plus Nick Young and a ballast expiring (Etan Thomas or Mike James) might work from the Wiz perspective.

Hoops

June 18th, 2009
10:05 am

Mark,

I believe the weak spots on the Hawks team is PG and Center. If you are trading Marvin to improve those two positions fine. But, your trade still leaves us weak @ PG and Center. Caron might be a upgrade, but it will not get us to the Finals.

My plan-Sign Sessions and trade Josh for Barqnani and their #9 pick.(Listen, you might like this) Let Bibby walk. Resign Zaza and Marvin. Sign and trade Flip for Charlie V.

Look @ this line up with Horford @ PF, but staying inside on offense:
PG-Sessions, Acie(there is not a better PG in this draft than Acie)
SG-JJ, Tyreke Evans(#9 pick)-in case we loose JJ next year
SF-Marvin, Mo Evans, #19 pick-Earl Clark, Budinger or D. Brown for when Mo leaves next year
PF-Horford, Charlie V. (Horford plays inside with Barqnani out)
C-Barqnani, Zaza, Morris (Zaza plays inside with Charlie V. out on the second unit)

Think this one over! I haven’t seen this plan before.

JB

June 18th, 2009
10:10 am

What are you guys smoking in the ATL. I’m live in DC and there is no way Ernie Grunfield would trade Tough Juice for Marvin Williams. First off, Butler is toughest player on the team. And your rationale that Law is better that Crit…who cares. Both are backups at best. Thanks but no thanks. Pawn off your draft busts on someone else!

MBZ

June 18th, 2009
10:24 am

Marvin Williams has gotta stay. The very first thing that should be done is to get a new coach that maximizes talent. Not a guy who rides his backcourt when his forntcourt is one of the best in the league.

O'brien

June 18th, 2009
10:36 am

Hoops,

I’m with you on the Sessions and Charlie V. I would sign both if possible (or at least one of them, because I dont think that Milwaukee can afford to keep them both).

BUT…trading for Bargnani? No thank you. He has been inconsistent, and he plays too soft in my opinion.

Hoops

June 18th, 2009
10:50 am

O’brien,

I’ll agree that Barqnani plays soft but he can shoot the 3. He makes 41% of his 3’s. With that being said, what center do we get that can play offense outside and shoot better? Horford is better on offense inside. Rasheed?

Hoops

June 18th, 2009
10:54 am

O’brien,

The real problem here is that BK signed too many players that play the same position!!!

truth-serum

June 18th, 2009
11:55 am

Sautee

June 18th, 2009
9:23 am

I must be honest and say Ive never seen him play. The bottom line is Horford averages less than ten points a game and less than ten rebounds a game. Thats pathetic at best if you want him to be a center. During step up time in the playoffs he averages 6.9 points a game and 5 rebounds, 0 blocks,0 steal. Thats not a NBA center. Paschulia is even less a rebounder then Marvin William a 2/3 guard.
The tandem of ZAZA watch this turnover pachulia and Horford is amongst the worst in the NBA. A good center(not a great one but a good one)would be capable of bringing 14-16 points per night with 12-14 rebounds and 2-3 block shots. Like say a ‘Mutumbo’.
Horford brings 9.7 and 9.6 with no blocks. Hes nearly expired at the end of the season from phsical exertion, so his playoff numbers are even worse.

Get past the height thing. Height is good and an assest but thats not what makes a center. Ask Moses Malone. Its about being a man in the post and being territorial. Horford is not an NBA center and his numbers prove that. It hurts the team to have him as the center. He cant move the other center out of the post so the lane gets clogged and slashers like Josh and JJ go out side because Horford cant man the middle, and when ZaZa is in,…well its time to practice your show dunks!!

Horford cant score because he does not have the shot to shoot over 6′10″ – 7′0″ centers with his back to the basket. His 46% shooting is stupid for a center where you should have the highest percentage of scoring and a dunk is the highest percentage shot!! Dude. I like Horford too but if you get past the “I Hate Woody” campaign and look at the numbers the guy is not cutting it. Its our weakest position!!

JB

June 18th, 2009
10:10 am

Excellent point! I call them the seven dwarfs
LET FACT IT,ACIE, ZAZA, SOLOMAN , MARIO WEST, OTHELLO HUNTER,THOMAS GARDNER AND SPEEDY CLAXTON, WOULD BE STARTERS ON 0…ZERO..NILL…NONE…NADA NBA TEAMS. THATS SEVEN SCRUBBS THAT YOU EXPECT WOODY TO OWN THE NBA WITH. GET REAL. ALMOST ALL OF THEM WOULD GET NO SIGNIFICANT TIME ON ANY OTHER TEAM IN THE NBA. They are draft or sign burst. You cant make ZaZa Tim Duncan. He went from starter to turnover factory. Acie has hand enough time in practice and games to develop.The one hes got to blame is the man in the mirror. Hes alot like Rumiel Robinson. You either step up or sit down. Quit whinning like a mother whose son doesnt make the grade and so she blames the coach. The coach did not shoot that brick or turn the ball over or give up the dunk. Your son did.

Hoops

June 18th, 2009
10:54 am
O’brien,

The real problem here is that BK signed too many players that play the same position!!!

I just thought Id acknowledge the truth in your statement. Thats what happens when you draft foe best available athlete rather than for need. The hawks need a center, so they go after a guard or another forward.

Grey, lopez,Camby,Hasheem Thabeet, there are options if you want to put together a team.

Jay

June 18th, 2009
12:24 pm

Before trading/giving up on Marvin Williams too soon, consider the saga of Chauncey Billups. Drafted after his sophomore year at the University of Colorado by Boston with the number 3 overall pick in 1997, he was out of the league after his rookie season and played with five teams during his first four seasons. At the end of his fourth season, he was considered one of the biggest busts in NBA history. However, things started to turn around for him in his fifth season (when he turned 25 years old), he signed as a free agent with Detroit in 2002 and now he’s an All-Star caliber, clutch shot-making, championship winning PG.

My earlier point about Jarrett Jack being similar to Billups was that they are the same height and have a similar style of game and, IMO, Jack will blossom when he find the right system for his talents as Billups did (maybe not first team all-pro but certainly in the top ten at that position).

The debate around Smith and Williams reminds me of the old debate of which would you rather be: the lion or the tiger. The truth is that all the on-court reasons for keeping the 23 year old Josh Smith are valid and are the exact same reasons for keeping the 23 year old Marvin Williams. The true difference is that Smith does everything, good or bad, with excitement (like the tiger) while Williams does everything, good or bad, with subtlety (like the lion).

However, we as fans often overlook the fact that owning a sports franchise is a business venture; one in which financial concerns often outweigh basketball decisions. How else do you explain Denver trading Marcus Camby, and his $10 million salary, to the Clippers for the right to exchange second round draft choices? While teams like Dallas, Cleveland, the Lakers and even the Knicks are willing to spend whatever amount is necessary to win a championship, the ASG has never shown such an inclination.

Here are six things we know about the future: First, Hawks’ ownership likes Coach Woodson. Second, Coach Woodson wants all of his free-agents to return. Third, Smith is already signed to a long-term, big money contract. Fourth, Joe Johnson will be a free-agent next year while Al Horford will be a restricted free-agent in 2011 and that they’ll have to spend to keep both guys. Fifth, the salary cap, and luxury tax cap will be lower than last year and sixth, there will be first round draft choices to sign every year for the foreseeable future.

So the real question is can they afford to sign everyone else AND afford to keep Marvin Williams? If they can, then they should. If they cannot afford to do so (and Mark Bradley has strongly hinted at it without coming out and saying it), then a sign-and-trade using Williams might be a good financial decision but will be a bad basketball decision; especially if Williams goes to a team that features him in their offense and he blossoms into someone who probably won’t make the All-Star team from the Eastern Conference as long as LeBron James and Paul Pierce are also in the Eastern Conference, but will be someone deserving of All-Star team consideration like Milwaukee’s Richard Jefferson and Orlando’s Hedo Turkoglu.

O'brien

June 18th, 2009
1:05 pm

Hoops,

I like Rasheed. Another center that has been mentioned is Mehmet Okur. The problem is Rasheed said he wants $8 mil per, and I’m sure he wants to be a starter (Okur too, who could opt out of his contract in Utah).

If the Hawks want to be radical (I think Ariose suggested it), they could sign Rasheed to a 2 year deal, and bring Horford off the bench as our backup center/PF (especially if they lose Zaza). In 2 years when Rasheed’s contract is up, then you can decide if Al is a full time PF or center.

Honestly, with Al as our starting 5, Josh as our starting 4, Marvin as our starting 3, I dont see the Hawks being a championship contender. Sure, they might win 40-50 games, compete for the 4th – 8th spot, but championship contenders? No.

O'brien

June 18th, 2009
1:07 pm

People say Al is a starter in this legue. And thats true. But so is Lamar Odom. So is Manu Ginobli, so is Jason Terry. Those guys are good enough to start on a number of teams, but sometimes coming off the bench is necessary (and sometimes even better).

Sautee

June 18th, 2009
2:32 pm

Truth serum,

I’m certainly NOT hung up on size being the defining point of a Center.

It’s interesting that you bring up Camby. An inch taller and 15 -20 pounds lighter than Horford.

Camby’s career totals are 10.7 pts. , 9.8 reb., 1.9 assists, 1.0 steals and 2.6 blocks.

Horfords totals 10.8 pts., 9.5 reb., 1.9 assists, 0.8 steals, and 1.1 blocks

VERY similar stats, I’d say. other than blocked shots, which Horford RAISED by .5 from last season. Which means that this season he blocked an extra shot every 2 games better than the year before. He also cut down on his turnovers and personal fouls, further helping his team in subtle ways that aren’t always viewed.

Why do you hate on Horford so much? I asked about Bogut NOT because of his size, but because the Bucks signed him to a MAX extension this time last year, BECAUSE they said there were so few good big men available.

Bogut’s career stats: 11.9 pts. 8.7 reb., 2.5 assists, 0.7 steals, 1.0 blks.

That too looks pretty dang similar to Horford’s numbers. Except that Horford is two years younger and will obviously have a chance to improve his numbers before HIS 4th year.

And you also mentioned Brook Lopez:

13.0 pts. 8.1 reb. 1.0 assists, 0.5 steals, 1.8 blocks.

Geez truth serum he’s an example of a “true center” and he rebounds LESS than Horford despite being 3 inches taller and outscored Al this season by a whopping 1.5 points. That’s less than one made shot per game, and I’ll wager that Lopez is NOT the 5th (or 6th) option on offense the way Horford is.

Listen man I hear your pleas, but you are not being realistic. Look at the stats. There are only 8 centers in the league averaging at least 14 points a game. I’ll say it again, ONLY 8 CENTERS average 14 points or more.

Does Horford need help inside? Certainly, he does, but let’s find a bruiser to come give us 20 minutes off the bench and when we DO play the Yaos, and DHowards of the world, give the bruiser more minutes.

Horford does too many excellent fundamental things to throw him away before he matures. And even if he’s NOT the “ideal” center, he’s doing a good job, IMOH.

And PLEASE don’t list the bogus playoff stats again since EVERYBODY on the blog (apparently but you) realizes that he was playing on a sprained ankle, so those stats are NOT representative of anything but a player playing hurt. You hurt your own case for trying to show his limitations by forcing bogus stats down our throats. If you don’t like him just say so.

Kevin

June 18th, 2009
2:51 pm

while your dreaming, why didn’t you say Marvin Williams for Lebron James or Kobe Bryant?

Ken Strickland

June 18th, 2009
3:25 pm

If you listen to this clown TRUTH SEMEN, OR SERUM, you’ll get an idea of what a fool sounds like that’s gotten too full of his own BS. This clown gets an idea in his head and then goes overboard tying to prove he’s right, including attacking the character of anyone that challenges his self absorbed opinions. He obviously has issues with AHorford and is trying desperately to show he’s not worthy enough to play center. He continues trying to make his points no matter how stupid they sound or how little thought and/or research has been done on his part.

CASE IN POINT-Over the last 14yrs there have been only 2 teams, the 00-02 Lakers and the 05-06 Heat, that have won NBA titles with a center that equaled or exceeded AHorford’s 2008 averages of 11.5PPG, 9.6RPG, 1.42BPG & 2.4APG. The center on both of those teams was SOneal. You have to go back to the mid 60’s and beyond, to the days of David Robinson, Hakeem the Dream, Robert Parish and Kareem A. Jabbar, to find centers that won titles with better stats than AHorford. Just in case you didn’t notice, each of these aforementioned centers were listed in the top 50 greatest players in NBA history.

I’ll bet championship calibur teams like the Lakers, Pistons, Spurs, Cavaliers, Celtics, and even the Suns, Jazz, Knicks, Bobcats, Heat etc, would jump at the chance to have him as their center.

TRUTH SERUM-you might not like AHorford, or think he can play the center position, but you can’t continue relying on your vast store of ignorance and stupidity trying to change the facts.

Max Power

June 18th, 2009
3:44 pm

First of all, Butler is worth more than Marvin. What else are you proposing to throw in to match salaries? Nobody is signing 13 ppg Marvin for $10 million/yr. He will be very lucky if he gets 8, but probably more like 7/yr. The three million difference is roughly equal to what the first pick could be sold for. So would you deal Marin and the first for Butler? I wouldn’t.

I might think about Marvin for Marion. They will get about the same $$ next year. Marion is older, but he defends at least as well and he creates all of his own shots. But I just don’t know about the age difference. Don’t know if I would be willing to trade a young asset like Marvin.

On the other hand, the Cleavland series was so close. Marion might just be the difference next year. Man, on a team where someone knows how to throw an alley oop pass, he would be awesome.

David

June 18th, 2009
4:28 pm

The Wizards a very young team, Nick young, Dominic Mcguire, Andray Blatche, Javale Mcgee, Javaris Crittenton, all these players are 25 and under. Bradley you must be smoking something, the wizards would never let an all star like Caron go even if it was cheaper it makes no sense. If anybody would go from the starting lineup it would be Jamison because he’s aging, and the Wizards are looking for a more Agrressive Power Forward. This trade scenario is just wishful thinking for an Atlanta Hawk fan, but it is so far off from reality, don’t kid yourself.

trtuth-serum

June 18th, 2009
4:52 pm

Ken Strickland

June 18th, 2009
3:25 pm

Im sorry you feel a need to speak VUL..GAR..LY.

I hope you are having a nice day and a spirit of peace and love is flowing in your heart.

You are opinionated.
I prefer facts.

THE NUMBER SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES. I MERELY LISTED HORFORD SEASONAL AVERAGE AND HIS PLAYOFF AVERAGE AND EXAMINED WHAT THOSE NUMBERS BROUGHT TO THE TABLE.

In the words of the Modern day spiritual… It is… What it is.

I like Horford very much as a person and even better as a powerforward, but getting past the nice guy sentiments, reality sets in. Hes no offensive threat and hes to small framed and not strong enough to man the post. Next year he might pull an achilles or groin.

You and I have different approaches to the game. I like to examine the production,crunch the numbers,look at the impact and see the athleticism and how they run….

You are highly opinionated,irrational,unlearned and clueless. The only thing you run is your mouth which is fueled by your hatred and jealousy of Woody, who dispite your campaign will be back again.

If you can humble yourself and recieve knowledge then take a look at the following post…I think these guys are advancing wisdom on this site.

Jay

June 18th, 2009
12:24 pm

also try

O’brien
June 18th, 2009
1:05 pm

Hoops

June 18th, 2009
10:54 am

These guys are cooking!

Sautee

June 18th, 2009
2:32 pm

I appreciate you. Im sure you mean well. Here what the hawks site shows about Horford

Team G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG

08-09 ATL 67 67 33.5 0.525 0.000 0.727 2.2 7.1 9.3 2.4 0.8 1.4 1.54 2.80 11.5

Career 148 144 32.3 0.511 0.000 0.729 2.7 6.9 9.5 1.9 0.8 1.1 1.62 3.10 10.8

His numbers are decreasing here and they decreased even more so in the play offs.

heres what he did againt cleveland front

FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
Conf. Semi-Finals ATL 3 3 26.7 0.333 0.000 0.000 1.3 3.7 5.0 2.0 1.0 0.7 0.67 3.00 3.3

His overall playoff average is 6.9 ppg and 5 rebounds per game.

Let deal with facts.Thats what GM’s do.

Why must I hate Horford to be objective?

The numbers dont lie. The dude was 3.3 points a game and averaged 5 rebounds and a half of a block. Businesses are not made on emotions but facts and numbers.

I do agree with you that Camby is a better shot blocker and camby is capable of scoring 12-16 points every night. Just because he did not dont mean he cant. His man knows that and thats why hes has to stay home on Camby and not roam. Thats not the case with Horford and Zaza the human meltdown. Horford is at top 10-11 point a game and thats a good night. His double doubles are 10 and 10. I agree with the other guys who say hed be better coming off the bench. I do like Horford. I also like winning.

To sum it up heres what NBA.com has for Camby’s efficiency rating which considers all the aspect required of his position.

2008-09 Statistics
PPG 10.3 RPG 11.10 APG 2.0

EFF + 20.26

heres what they have for horford and his playoff experience
PPG 6.9 RPG 5.80 APG 2.0

EFF + 11.11

EFF + 20.26 (Camby)
EFF + 11.11 (horford)

Have a nice day.

Horford’s career numbers are bolster by the time he spent as a powerforward when he first got here, his natural position and before the ZaZa the expressway to the cup is open lost his starting role.

Im just say horford and the hawks would be better served with him at forward facing the basket(his natural instinct) and perhaps coming off the bench.

niremetal

June 18th, 2009
4:58 pm

Jay,

Good points.

trtuth-serum

June 18th, 2009
5:00 pm

Ken Strickland

June 18th, 2009
3:25 pm
I’ll bet championship calibur teams like the Lakers, Pistons, Spurs, Cavaliers, Celtics,

Really? Id gladly take Bynum for Horford….You think the lakers might make that trade? Duncan for Horford…

Yeah Right!

rusty

June 18th, 2009
5:07 pm

marvin is not that good,another of out big mistakes.eahington would be crazy to make this deal. woody & jj is our big problems. joe because he is a ball hog @ woody because he is the wsorst coach in the nba

Sautee

June 18th, 2009
6:18 pm

Truth serum,

There are SO many things wrong with your post that I’m not sure I can address them all. I’ll start with this: “I AGREE THAT AL WORE DOWN AND ALMOST BROKE HIS LEG TRYING TO PLAY CENTER AGAINST THE BIG BOYS.”

OK, if he almost broke his leg, and THEN tried to help his team, playing on an “almost broken leg”, WHY would his stats in those games be a valid comparison of ANYTHING? And you say you want to deal in FACTS? No, you want to try and win an argument when the stats don’t favor your point, so I guess you think the rest of us are foolish enough to find validity there. We are not. And if you are deluded enough to think that THAT is being objective, then I’ll just have to let you live in your happy little world.

And about that “wearing down” thing, if you’ll check back at nba.com / stats you’ll see that AFTER the all star break, AL was THIRD among Centers in double-doubles, trailing only Yao and Howard. So much for wearing down.

And OF COURSE if you compare Al season numbers form this year to his career numbers, the result will go down, but that’s because he had a better season THIS YEAR than last, his ONLY two seasons. It doesn’t show slippage, but the opposite. It’s disingenuous to try and say he’s slipped.

Then there’s this piece of disinformation: “Horford’s career numbers are bolster by the time he spent as a power forward when he first got here, his natural position and before the ZaZa the expressway to the cup is open lost his starting role.”

Horford has been the starting Center from the first regular season game in Dallas in 07-08. He has NEVER NOT been the starting center except for when Josh was hurt early this season. Otherwise, he has only spent time at power forward while Zaza came off the bench. Zaza lost his starting role BEFORE the 07-08 season began. Get your facts straight, please.

Now, the Camby comparison. I noticed that you picked Al’s PLAYOFF stats (which, as we’ve discussed were NOT a valid thing to use, since he was playing on an “almost broken leg”) instead of his regular season stats, which would be a more valid comparison. Did you think we wouldn’t notice the difference?

Here’s the true comparison using the regular season for both:

Camby PPG 10.3 RPG 11.10 APG 2.0 EFF + 20.26
Horford PPG 11.5 RPG 9.3 APG 2.4 EFF + 18.91

Looks a little different, eh? Camby was 6th in efficiency among centers. Horford was 8th .

Which, most ironically, was HIGHER than some of the “true centers“ you‘ve named. Okafor was 10th, B. Lopez was 13th and your boy Aaron Gray was 49th!. OOPS!

Hey, YOU were the one bringing up the efficiency numbers.

If the best you can do is to keep parroting Horford’s poor playoff numbers, as if they were valid, then you’ve lost this argument already.

If the best you can do is compare Camby’s regular season numbers with numbers you already KNOW are NOT valid, well, I guess I’ll stop listening and get my scroll on when I see your posts.

vava74

June 18th, 2009
7:33 pm

Mark,

Either you simply don’t know anything about basketball or you just get a kick out of launching stupid trade suggestions!

This proposed trade is stupid beyond belief. Marvin is only 23 and has improved every single year in a significant way (look at his 3 point range, with just 1 summer dedicated to it).

Caron Butler is a fine player but has bad record with injuries, is not getting any younger and is playing for a lottery team with little or no pressure.

Marvin can easily become one of the best 3’s in the game. Just give him a couple of years.

Also, Marvin has made is mark defending Lebron (during the regular season we had 1 win and 1 loss coming out of a very very disputable decision by the blind mice with Marving doing a standout job – you were probably drinking margaritas on some joint instead of looking at the game) which is something very few players can boast about.

He has the potential to be a superior one-on-one defender and that my friends is by far more important than the 6 pts average he gives to Caron (in a Arenas-less lottery bound team, I would like to remind you).

Also, to say that Kendrik Perkins is not TODAY better than Al is delusional. K Perkins is an exceptional role player and is still developing. Al has tremendous potential and should be better than Kendrick on the long run but TODAY you cannot even compare them. Al is still very limited offensively and has no real inside game (Al will have some day, but not yet) and doesn’t have the body to work effectively on the 5 spot whilst Kendrick does.

I would also like to say that the other idiot’s suggestion to get Rafer Alston is yet another delusional proposal. Alston cannot find a team mate on an organised offensive set even if he was lead by his arm like a blind man by Magic Johnson. He has some street ball talent, but as a PG, he is average AT BEST and his shot is most of the time well off mark!

vava74

June 18th, 2009
8:04 pm

Ariose,

Thank you for the link to Marvin’s highlight reel.

Obviously if you look only at selected footage you don’t get a clear picture BUT you can conclude by seeing this one that Marvin has the complete package, a very unique inside-outside game, since he can slash and can drain the 3, as well as play both positional defence (one on one) and poach the passing lanes.

People have to realise that Marvin should be the 2nd option in the Hawks offence and that J-Smoove should be a role player, blocking, rebounding and running the fast break to dunk which is all that is talented to do (he has developed a few moves around the basket and he should be rewarded with a few touches).

I love J-Smoove, but I can only accept him to stay if he accepts the fact that his talents are limited and mostly derived from his spectacular physical hability which should still allow him to produce 15ppg 12rbg 3bpg 3 apg.

Marvin is much more complete offensively since he can finish both strong or smooth to the rim and he can stop and pop hitting both the mid-range jumper or the 3.

He reminds me a bit of James Worthy but with legitimate 3 point range.

Sautee

June 18th, 2009
8:24 pm

Truth serum,

One more thing. You said this: “Horford is at top 10-11 point a game and thats a good night. His double doubles are 10 and 10.”

Hawks vs. CHI 11/11/08 Horford 27 pts. 17 reb.
Hawks vs. SAC 2/18/09 Horford 18 pts. 18 reb.
Hawks vs. IND 3/13/09 Horford 17 pts. 15 reb.
Hawks vs. IND 4/10/09 Horford 22 pts. 15 reb.

You were saying?

ProudTechFan

June 18th, 2009
8:28 pm

A friend and I went to a Hawks vs Wizards game this season and I leaned over to my friend during the Wizards introductions and when Caron Butler was announced I said” he is going to be a problem for us tonight” low and behold Caron hit open and contested three’s an had like 30 points middle of the fourth quarter. We won the game but had no real answer for Caron Butler. The guy is an All Star, can handle the ball, shoot the lights out, and can defend multiple positions. I like the idea but as someone said earlier, the GM of the Wizards would have to be drunk out of his mind to agree to that trade. I understand dumping some salary but he would really be giving up too much in the long run. But if Sund can make it happen, i think a move like that would at the least solitify fourth place in the east.

Ken Strickland

June 18th, 2009
9:07 pm

TRUTH SERUM-in addition to addressing the number of centers that have won NBA titles, without matching or exceeding AHorfords rebounding, scoring, assists and blocked shot totals over the last 14yrs, I want you to address this. Of the 16 centers that started for the 16 Eastern and Western conference playoff teams this yr, only 2 had centers that were able to match or exceed AHorfords 11.5PPG, 9.3RPG, 1.42BPG and 2.4APG seasonal averages, the Rocket’s YMing and the Magic’s DHoward.

Explain why you feel the teams I mentioned in my previous post would reject the opportunity to acquire AHorford, a PF struggling to play center, as you put it, who’s overall stats are better than their current centers. That should be an easy task for someone like you who claims to be so reliant on stats and facts.

RealSquawk

June 18th, 2009
10:02 pm

ProudTechFan,

I don’t want to speak for everyone else, but for me at least the problem doesn’t rest with the fact Caron wouldn’t help this team. He Would there is denying that. The problem is and even though he might no have said it is that Mr. Bradley is basically saying Marvin should and has to go for a very bogus and illegitimate unproven reason.

If Marvin was playing where Caron is he would have those same games. The fact is he is younger a better defender and cheaper. Plus trading Caron doesn’t help the team it only shortens our window for success and takes away a significant piece in building the of a legitimately long lasting competitive team. You trade away Marvin and now you have two Young guys who play the same position (very differently, but the same position) trying to lead your franchise. And to be honest Marvin could be a better player than both of them.

vava74,
I could never articulate it, but you are spot on Josh Smith is a role player. a very good one, but a role player. Marvin Williams is like a Ron Artest without the Attitude problem and he is younger with upside.

Come on Mark? please defend your point instead of just saying yes i agree to the few people who actually think this is a good idea. And I know you are going to enjoy this, but literally when i read this the other day it pretty much ruined it. It was really the only thing I could think about.

O'brien

June 18th, 2009
10:04 pm

JJ averages 18 shot attempts per game.
Bibby averages 13 shot attempts per game.
Josh gets 12.3 shot attempts per game
Marvin gets 10.2 shots per game.

Al only gets 8.8 shots per game. The key to Al Horford having better numbers (and Joosh too) is for Woody to run some plays for him, and let the team play inside out. If Woody would do that, Al could easily average 15 and 11. And he plays solid defense.

Tom Glavine

June 18th, 2009
11:20 pm

“Face Off”…??

Not very creative.

Suckers.

Jay

June 18th, 2009
11:39 pm

One of the memorable moments of the 2008-2009 season was the retirement ceremony for Alonzo Mourning. Remember him? Wasn’t he one of the best NBA Centers of all-time? The only question ever raised about Mourning, who is 6′10″ and played at 240 pounds, was where does he rank on the all-time list of great centers. Al Horford, at 6′10″ and 245 pounds, is the same height and a little heavier than Mourning and Mourning was never called an undersized Center.

Since Horford with Joakim Noah at Florida and since Noah was the taller of the two, maybe that’s why people think Horford was the PF and would make a great PF in the NBA; maybe even the second coming of Karl Malone. But Horford was the Center and Noah was the PF at Florida. Like most power forwards, Noah played on the perimeter as often as he played in the paint while, like most centers, Horford was always in the paint.

Look for Horford’s scoring from the low post to increase as he becomes more comfortable playing in the NBA. It has nothing to do with height and everything to do with gaining experience. Portland’s Greg Oden is taller and heavier than Horford yet he struggled mightily to score in the low post. Like most young players, Horford moved “too fast”, instead of moving “quickly” when making his low post moves; something he’ll correct over time. Let’s hope that as his proficiency increases so too will his opportunities.

Bottom line: Horford may not be the prototypical Center but he is able to play the Center postion in the NBA with a high level of proficiency, fits perfectly with Smith and Williams on the Hawks frontcourt and his height (or perceived lack thereof) is not a reason why the Hawks won’t win a championship.

Mark Bradley

June 18th, 2009
11:44 pm

I have two words for you, Jay: Thank you!

Ariose

June 19th, 2009
12:45 am

vava74, no problem lol.

cory

June 19th, 2009
12:50 am

truth serum,

why is it you really only have something to say about Als playoff stats. you clearly dont have an eye for skill & potential. every single starter on this team is more than capable of putting up the stats that you love so much. even if one of them are coming off the bench, they will still make this team that much stronger. i wonder just how many games you watch because if you really watched marvin, you would see just how much trouble he can be for all other teams. i guess you dont pay attention to the capability guys are showing when Woody lets them play(Acie is a prime example). how can you say hes a bust when you havent really seen him play? & its evident this team would be way better in terms of win % if woody played through the backcourt 1st. i question whether you really know what youre talking about or is it you just like to argue a bad point. which is it?

anyone heard whats going on with avery johnson

truth-serum

June 19th, 2009
1:23 am

Who would ever call Alonzo an all time great center. Surely you jest. Did Mo Dumb need vindicating and calling Zo a alltime great center the salvation? Yeah right. He was a good player, Mourning. I dont think Id call him great. I know he had liver problems and was force to retire before he could establish himself as a great player. They also list his weight at 265

I dont think you would compare his career numbers to Horford’s but here they are

Alonzo Mourning
G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
Career 838 686 31.0 0.527 0.247 0.692 2.6 5.9 8.5 1.1 0.5 2.8 2.64 3.40 17.1

Moses Malone
MP F G FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF ppg
34.0 7.1 14.3 .495 0.0 0.1 .096 6.2 8.2 .760 5.1 7.2 12.3 1.3 0.8 1.3 3.1 2.4 20.3
NBA 1329 784 33.9 7.1 14.5 .491 0.0 0.1 .100 6.4 8.3 .769 5.1 7.1 12.2 1.4 0.8 1.3 3.1 2.3 20.6
ABA 126 34.7 6.7 12.1 .552 0.0 0.0 .000 3.9 6.1 .629 5.2 7.7 12.9 1.1 0.9 1.2 3.7 3.2 17.2

Please note the 3 blocks and 17 points and 8.5 rebs. I dont think those are Horford type numbers. I would not compare Horford to Moses Malone either Zo was 265 and Moses was well much better than horford and better than Zo

Note also Moses’s 20.6 PPG in the NBA and please note his free throw and blks and btw they list him as a center/pwforward.

At the age of 19, when he was a lean and lanky 6-10 man-child, Malone had no trouble making the jump from Petersburg (Va.) High School to the Utah Stars of the ABA. Playing forward until he filled out enough to take the pounding at center, Malone was an immediate success in the ABA, averaging over 18 points and 14 rebounds as a rookie.

Here are all career totals and for you guys who rather read with your emotions ive added a chart tha compars league wide if this site will allow it.

Al Horford #15 Forward-Center Atlanta Hawks Team Home
NewsTeam ReportScores & ScheduleStatsRosterDepth ChartNotesHeight: 6-10 Weight: 245
Born: Jun 3, 1986 – Puerto Plata, Dominican Republic
College: Florida
Draft: 2007 – 1st round (3rd pick) by the Atlanta Hawks
Horford 11.5
League Average 9.5
League Leader 28.4

2007-08 ATL 81 31:23 4.1 8.3 49.9 0.0 0.1 0.0 1.9 2.6 73.1 3.1 6.6 9.7 1.5 1.7 0.7 0.9 3.3 10.1
2008-09 ATL 67 33:30 4.7 8.9 52.5 0.0 0.0 0.0 2.2 3.1 72.7 2.2 7.2 9.3 2.4 1.5 0.8 1.4 2.8 11.5
Career 148 32:17 4.4 8.5 51.1 0.0 0.0 0.0 2.1 2.8 72.9 2.7 6.9 9.5 1.9 1.6 0.8 1.2 3.1 10.8

Last updated through games completed on Jun 14, 2009

Yeah they still list him as a forward/center. Ive always said any center can give you minutes at the post .
Horford 11.5
League Average 9.5
League Leader 28.4

This is a chart on another site and it has him at about average in stats compared to the leaque leader at 28.5 and the leaque ave at 9.5 his career ave is 11.5 2 points or 1 basket better than the rest of the guys. Hes no Alonzo Mourning or Moses Malone and weighs about 20-25 pounds lighter in the saddle that a real center. Hes just average. By the time playoffs come hes so frail he probably weighs about 210-215 and may break a leg or turn an ankle or pull a groin. Hes not able to take the Hawks deep in the playoff with his playoff average being 6.9 points per game and 5 rebs per game. That wont get us far.

I hope this did not hurt your feelings guys. I wont discuss this further. I do like horford I think he is a important piece to the hawks success, But he is a powerforward and needs to replace ZaZa the human turnover, off the bench and lets get a center and let Horford come off the bench. Argue as much as you like. Hes just an average powerforward and hes not Alonzo or Moses Malone.

Both of these guys were natural center not powerforwards trying to convert or masquerade as a center.

Sautee

June 18th, 2009
8:24 pm

You searched Horfords entire pro career and found that on four occasions he had a game that resemble a true center’s stats. Congradulations. 99% of the time hes about average. If you take away those four games his stats would fall under the 9.5 leaque average that hes compared to.

I tell you what. If it bothers you guys that much. Ill just ignore the big gorilla in the room… how about that.

truth-serum

June 19th, 2009
1:24 am

Thats any powerforward can give you minutes at the center position.

Chase Thomas

June 19th, 2009
1:38 am

This isn’t as bad as the Alston move, but still shows the lack of basketball IQ this paper currently has. The Wizards are not going to trade an All Star like Caron Butler to another Eastern Conference foe. The Hawks are going to have to trade out West and I know exactly how.

The Wolves have already shown they’re willing to trade Al Jefferson which is hysterical considering he’s the best young big man in the game (yes, better player then Dwight Howard). Jefferson was dominating the West with little help before going down with injury and are willing to make a move for a PF in return. So rather then move Marvin Williams, move Smith.

A trade involving Smith and Jefferson has the potential to work and if the Hawks somehow got the sense to get a true dominating center like Jefferson they have the chance to become elite. Smith has worn out his welcome here and his lackluster playoff performance can’t go unnoticed.

Another problem is Woodson, the Hawks have to either ensure Woodson is going to be the coach for years to come or he’s gone after this year. You have to bring in players that work. Bibby works in Woodson’s system, Alston would not. Alston is not an upgrade over Bibby, and it’s funny because PG wasn’t even a problem for the Hawks this post season; it was the terrible front court.

A lineup of Bibby, Johnson, Williams, Horford, Jefferson is a lot better then just throwing in Caron Butler at the wing or adding an overrated PG in Rafer Alston.

That is what the smart GM would do, but this is the Hawks and they’ll likely keep what’s already here and draft an unneeded PG or SF.

truth-serum

June 19th, 2009
1:40 am

Florida Gators 2006-07 Team Profile
By Dennis Velasco, About.com
University of Florida Gators
Conference: Southeastern Conference (SEC)
Record: 29-5, 13-3 SEC
Head Coach: Billy Donovan

Roster:
Number-Player, Position, HT, WT, Class, Hometown
• 22-Jack Berry, G, 6-6, 215, Jr, Windermere, FL
• 2-Corey Brewer, F, 6-9, 185, Jr, Portland, TN
• 11-Taurean Green, G, 6-0, 177, Jr, Ft. Lauderdale, FL
• 15-Walter Hodge, G, 6-0, 170, So, Guaynabo, Puerto Rico
• 12-Lee Humphrey, G, 6-2, 192, Sr, Maryville, TN
• 23-Jonathan Mitchell, F, 6-7, 243, Fr, Mount Vernon, NY
• 13-Joakim Noah, F-C, 6-11, 232, Jr, New York, NY
• 3-Brandon Powell, G, 6-3, 187, Fr, Memphis, TN
• 42-Al Horford, F-C, 6-10, 245, Jr, Puerto Plata, Dominican Republic
• 32-Chris Richard, F-C, 6-9, 255, Sr, Lakeland, FL
• 34-Marreese Speights, F-C, 6-10, 250, Fr, St. Petersburg, FL
• 1-Brett Swanson, G, 6-2, 180, Sr, Pace, FL
• 25-Garrett Tyler, G-F, 6-7, 200, Jr, Palm Harbor, FL
• 21-Dan Werner, F, 6-7, 235, Fr, Middletown, NJ

FLORIDA LIST HIM AS A POWERFORD/CENTER JUST LIKE I SAID AND LIKE ALL THE SCOUTS SAID. BRADLEY. LEARN TO FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF AND YOU WONT BE WRONG AS OFTEN.

HAVE A GOOD NIGHT.

truth-serum

June 19th, 2009
1:56 am

ONE MORE THING. HORFORD AINT NO KARL MALONE EITHER. NOT EVEN CLOSE. GET REAL!

STOP THE MADNESS.

RealSquawk

June 19th, 2009
6:56 am

ChaseThomas,

I have two words for you! Thank-you!

Jay,
At first I was going to say Alozno Mourning is clearly more tenacious and athletic and shot blocking focused than Al. And he is. Al can’t make some of the blocks Alonzo did, but thats an unfair comparison. Just like implying AL could be just as effective as Alonzo at center is an unfair comparison. The world is getting bigger, stronger and more athletic out there and so yeah maybe Al can play the center, he is longer than Alonzo and I think faster, but that doesn’t mean he can play center against Dwight Howard, or Big Z, Emeka Okafor, Brooke Lopez,or Chris Bosh. And we need to get by at least two of these teams to get to finals.

zechosenjuan

June 19th, 2009
8:17 am

I don’t like Butler for Marvin. Marvin is a pretty solid player with a lot more potential and Caron I believe has already peaked.

I’m thinking that what we need is a different coach or a different approach to the game. Run some pick and rolls or motion offense.

Sautee

June 19th, 2009
9:42 am

Truth serum,

I never compared Horford to Moses OR Mourning. They are already at the end of their careers while Horford is just beginning. At the end of his career will be the time to compare him with them, not now.

I compared him to the centers YOU said we needed, TRUE CENTERS you said, like Okafor, B. Lopez or Aaron Freakin’ Gray.

I showed you (and you helped by bringing up the eff. stat) how Horford was at least as productive IF NOT MORE as your list of TRUE CENTERS.

Of COURSE you want to run away and not discuss it. You were shown to be wrong!

Be a man and admit it. Or slink away, but don’t think I’ll forget about it.

longtimefan

June 19th, 2009
9:57 am

I think that we are too easy to blame the players when we need to determine how the coaches are teaching these young players. JJ came over already established. No other young Hawk has shown signs of developing into an impact player. They mostly play on raw talent and home-crowd motivation. During the playoffs, I remember Woody yelling at Bibby for passing the ball to Josh Smith for a three pointer and Bibby stating that if the play was not designed that way he would not have passed it to him. I personally see talent not being developed. These are players with great talent but not disciplined to the game and not coached to reach their potential. We need more peices but we need a coach to develop the team.

KevinA

June 19th, 2009
10:27 am

Bibby and JJ like to play catch and shoot. This has hampered the production of Marvin, Josh and AL. We have a great young team. Bibby is the one to go. Use the two draft picks to get rid of Speedy. If we resign Flip he can play PG along with Acie, JJ, Chills. Between Speedy and Bibby we are talking 19 million. If Chills is signed we can trade Flip for a pg that can play defense and do pick and roles..

KevinA

June 19th, 2009
10:33 am

We could just dump Bibby and offer Odem the 14 million. Al could come of the bench and spell Odem and Josh. Pretty tough front court if you ask me. We could afford to let ZaZa go.
Speedy, Flip and and the draft picks should find us another pg.

truth-serum

June 19th, 2009
10:51 am

Ken Strickland

June 18th, 2009
9:07 pm

I appreciate you showing restraint and not being emotionally charged. That’s very mature of you. Quite pleasant.

If you are able to read and interpret stats, you will find a beacon of understanding in the stats I have posted. I’ll give you a quick snippet.

Horford, whom I like as a person and player (contrary to your regurgitations), has numbers that are about average for the NBA. The “Majority of the sites lists him as a powerforward. I understand that the Hawks are using him as a center. The University of Florida, the NBA draft, and most statistical sites list him as a powerforward. That’s probably because he is…Dah.

His numbers equate basically to a middle of the pack player, nothing outstanding or special. No Moses, Alonzo or Karl Malone. It’s also important to note that during the playoffs and the intensity it brings with the 7 game series and coaches isolating your weaknesses, Horford is reduced to 6.9 ppg and 5.0 rbs. The further you go the bigger the guys get. I know he almost broke his ankle trying to go to the rack against bigger competition, and was playing hurt. In the playoffs (after 82 games) everybody is playing hurt. No time to whine. The bottom line is that on an 82 game schedule, yeah, he can play against the average guy. To go deep in the playoffs this aint going to get it, especially when the game become half-court, and it always does. Then the center post is magnified. Not so during the run and gun of the regular season.

You apparently don’t understand what a center is because you keep referring to numbers whose relevance is minuet. The center post is not about rebounding. I wish you could understand and appreciate the center position better. In all sports and board games center control is the way to victory. He who controls the center controls the game. It’s fundamental to understanding sports.

Moving on.

I cut and pasted a snippet of a writer’s biography of Moses Malone. Here it is again:

At the age of 19, when he was a lean and lanky 6-10 man-child, Malone had no trouble making the jump from Petersburg (Va.) High School to the Utah Stars of the ABA. Playing forward until he filled out enough to take the pounding at center, Malone was an immediate success in the ABA, averaging over 18 points and 14 rebounds as a rookie.

This is pertinent because the pounding that takes place at the 5 is not like any other. Have you noticed how when a big man backs Horford down in the post he has a backwards curve to his body? He (as do many undersized guys) pushes out against his man at the waist while his feet are planted and slightly behind him. His shoulders also point slightly back. That’s how he tries to stop the big men from backing him down and collapsing the post. The toll that puts on your anatomy after 82 games is incredible. That why the above writer mentioned that Moses played forward until his body was able. Let me further add that if you keep Horford as a center for his Hawks career ultimately his body will breakdown like it did in the playoffs. He may develop back issues.

He is an asset, don’t get me wrong. He is athletic and persistent. He is smart too. He’s no center. The Hawks would be better served if he came off the bench and rotated with Josh, and backed up the new center, whoever that would be. That would make us a deeper and stronger team.

You asked why I think that the Lakers would not trade Bynum at 7′0″ 285 or Duncan 6′11″ 260 for Horford. My answer is that these organizations are committed to winning and understand the 5 spot and protecting it. It’s not about rebounds, in which Horford is only average during the season and by playoffs….well 5.0 is not going to get you far…neither will a pint of gas.

Horford also is not an offensive threat. 6.9 playoffs and 11.5 reg is a mild impact. He needs to develop a mid range shot. A baby hook wouldn’t hurt. You’d like to have at least the threat of your man scoring so that his man will stay home and not roll out to JJ or clog the mid range shots leaving Josh and Marv to retreat to the wings.

We can do better than that.

truth-serum

June 19th, 2009
11:08 am

Sautee

June 19th, 2009
9:42 am

Bless your heart. I hope you are having a nice morning and things go well for you today.

The post I made was in reference to another writer, what I had to say to you appears under your logon and time of post. Let me help you get on track this morning.

Sautee

June 18th, 2009
8:24 pm

You searched Horfords entire pro career and found that on four occasions he had a game that resemble a true center’s stats. Congradulations. 99% of the time hes about average. If you take away those four games his stats would fall under the 9.5 leaque average that hes compared to.

Thats what I wrote to you. You are certainly excitable. Sit down and relax for a while, maybe go get some air.

truth-serum

June 19th, 2009
11:46 am

vava74

June 18th, 2009
7:33 pm

I think Mark isnt as dumb as he seems. I think most of the garbage he offers is tongue in cheek.

cory
June 19th, 2009
12:50 am
Im a HUGE MARVIN WILLAIMS FAN. HE WILL BE A VERY VERY GOOD PLAYER. HE WILL BE AN IMPACT PLARER FOR SURE. I THINK IN 2 YEARS HELL BE BETTER THAN JJ. YOU HAVE ME WRONG. FOR ME THIS IS THE UNTOUCHABLE LIST : MARVIN,JOSH,FILP,JJ AND HORFORD.(CONTRARY TO OPINIONS I JUST WANT HORFORD BACK WHERE HE BELONG AND THE HAWKS GET THE CENTER THEY EXPECTED ZAZA THE 2 IN VERTICAL LEAP TO BE.)

IM ONLY GOING TO SAY THIS ONE MORE TIME. COACHES DONT SHOOT BRICKS, PLAYERS DO. COACHES DONT COMMIT TURNOVERS PLAYERS DO. COACHES DONT GET TOOK TO THE RACK PLAYERS DO. JUST WIN BABY! PLAY! QUIT WHINNNING GUYS.

IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR A DEVELOPMENTAL LEAGUE GO TO THE CBA!! OR A 3 ON 3 LEAGUE. THIS IS THE NBA BABY!

YOU PRACTICE ENOUGH AND GET SOME GAME TIME WHEN YOU PRACTICE WELL. PRODUCE IN THE GAME AND YOUR NUMBER GETS CALL MORE OFTEN. IF YOU DONT WELL…AS FILP MURRAY, OR HAMILTON.

YOU WHINERS SOUND LIKE THE MOTHERS WHOSE SONS ARE BENCH WARMERS AND THEY HOLD THE COACH IN CONTEMPT BECAUSE JOHNNY CANT PLAY!

DUDE!!

Sautee

June 19th, 2009
12:04 pm

Truth serum,

Or is it “running away from the truth serum”

Did you name Okafor, Camby, Lopez and Gray as examples of the kind of centers we need?

Did you, yes or no? YES YOU DID!

If you’d like I can find it and cut and paste it here, but that’s kind of boring for the rest of the blog. Kinda like when you keep regurgitating Al’s playoff stats, when EVERYBODY but you knows that they are bogus because of his injury.

Why don’t you post Al’s numbers against the Celtics last year when he WASN’T injured? Oh, would that weaken your argument, I’m sorry.

You named 4 “true centers” and I compared them to Horford and the stats show that he’s doing fine. NOT GREAT, mind you, but fine.

When you can admit that he “held his own” statistically against these “true centers” that YOU named, I’ll relax a while.

Until then….. you can expect to hear from me every time you post anything.

C’mon man, it’s not that hard, just admit that the figures were better for Horford than you expected. Or shall I say closer to a “true center” than you expected.

Remember that only 8 centers in the entire league averaged over 14 points / gm and 2 of those (Bargnani and Okur) are not true post players, but hang out on the perimeter. I think you are being unrealistic in your expectations of acquiring a center who can give, as you said 14-16 points and 12-14 rebounds.

Only Dwight Howard had rebound numbers like that. All I’m asking from you is keep it real. And see that while Al may not LOOK like the kind of center you want, his stats (excluding the time he was playing hurt) measured up to the very examples YOU gave.

truth-serum

June 19th, 2009
1:33 pm

Sautee

June 19th, 2009
12:04 pm

I thought Obama swatted you yesterday in the WHITE HOUSE.

This page is full of my views and is right here for you and everyone to see.
To have a conversation with you is to regress…but if it helps your troubled soul.

I did mention that I thought Grey is a natural center. I’ve seen him play like his size and tenacity. He understands protecting the paint. I also mentioned that he is a rookie.

I also like Lopez who doesn’t? He destroyed the Hawks when the times we played him (ask Horford). He’s got a true center physique. He mans the middle and he’s assertive. He’s a good scorer and will require the attention of doubles as he grows and is utilized. He is a young player whose game is in front of him as a center.

I don’t know much about Okafor, but what the analyst are saying is good. The reference you are making was in conjunction with all the whining guys like you make about there are no up and coming centers so we should be content to have a powerforward as our center.

You are clearly ignorant of what a center is, his role and his tools. So rather than get dragged into the quicksand of stupidity where you are, I choose to move on from your conversation. You seem intent on trying to make Horford s mediocre numbers equate to the level of play that is necessary to man the post. I tried to help you by showing you some guys his height that would be a mark to compare with…someone brought up Alonzo who was 6′10″ 265, and I added Moses Malone 6′10″ and now Ill add Darryl Dawkins… Chocolate thunder 6′11″ 265. These were very good models of what you look for in a center.
Go research his numbers and you see what he brought to the table.

The bottom line is Horford is a powerforward masquerading as a center, and his numbers are average at best.

If you see it different I’m ok with that.

No need to kill a dead horse… or is beat a horse…. Hey go research that and get back to me will you?

Havaniceday

truth-serum

June 19th, 2009
1:51 pm

Mark Bradley

June 18th, 2009
11:44 pm
I have two words for you, Jay: Thank you!

Jay

June 18th, 2009
11:39 pm

The reason Mourning was never called an undersize center is because he wasnt. He weighed 261 Not the 240 Horford weighs

Born: Feb 8, 1970
Height: 6-10 / 2,08
Weight: 261 lbs. / 118,4 kg.
College: Georgetown
Years Pro: 15

and another site

Nicknamed “Zo”, Mourning played at center and is 6 ft 10 in (2.08 m) tall, and weighs 261 lb (118 kg; 18.6 st). His tenacity on defense twice earned him NBA Defensive Player of the Year Award and perennially placed him on the NBA All-Defensive Team.

I do want to correct that he had kidney issues not liver issues.

Mitchell

June 19th, 2009
2:29 pm

Every time I watch Caron Butler, he always surprises me with his spectacular play. He’s a very intimidating player in that he always looks extremely focused and ready to kill. Marvin, on the other hand, does not have that killer’s mentality and to be honest, neither does Joe. We need another 20 point scorer (Ahem, Caron), who will not shy away from the ball and who will always be up for guarding the other team’s best offensive player. It seemed as if with Joe, if he had to guard the Lebron Jameses, and the Dwyane Wades of the world, then his offensive game would tremendously as his defense would continue to wear him out. Caron WILL always be up for the challenge of guarding the Dwyane Wade’s and etc. while putting up good offensive numbers, and allow Joe to do the same.

ABOUT THE POINT GUARD
Listen, Mike Bibby is a great shooter… however that’s all he is. The Hawks are arguably the MOST athletic team in the league as its extremely undersized front court could compete with any. In order to get the most out of our athletic ability, we need a young, talented, point guard who can not only shoot, but can also penetrate, dish, and even score by creating his own shot (all of which Bibby is not). Thus being said, I am completely for drafting JEFF TEAGUE. The kid is a monster and is extremely athletic, quick, and fast, and could get to the paint and either score by creating his own shot (34 vs. UNC) or by serving an alley to one of the bigs. He has great size and he is exactly what Atlanta needs.

Mark,
Please let me know why you do not like Teague, and prefer Maynor. We need another scorer and Teague can do that and penetrate and dish with his tremendous quickness.

Sautee

June 19th, 2009
2:39 pm

Truth serum,

Having a little trouble staying on track are we?

“The reference you are making was in conjunction with all the whining guys like you make about there are no up and coming centers so we should be content to have a powerforward as our center.”

Go ahead and show me where I said that. Show me. You can’t because I did not say that. It’s pure obfuscation on your part as you attempt to dodge the FACT that YOU brought up examples of what YOU called “true centers” and each of them was shown to be not much better than Horford, and in MOST cases, not as good.

Answer the question, please. Did you bring up Camby, Lopez, Okafor and Gray as examples of a “true center”? Yes or no?

And did you notice that Horford measured up nicely with their stats? Yes or no?

And I HAVE to laugh at your bringing Darryl Dawkins into the mix.

Career numbers: 12.0 pts. 6.1 reb. heh heh

Are you serious? This was interesting to me, since my memory of Dawkins is of a player who performed better than that. 12 and 6 and he’s an example of what we REALLY need?

6 rebounds from 6′11″ 261? REALLY?

And you said this: “You seem intent on trying to make Horford s mediocre numbers equate to the level of play that is necessary to man the post.”

No, I’m intent on showing YOU that Horford’s numbers compare VERY WELL with the “true centers” that YOU named. That’s all. And that is with Horford getting, by far, the fewest touches of the starters.

Of COURSE Horford’s numbers won’t compare with a HOFer like Moses. But neither would Lopez, Gray, Okafor or Camby, so I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make bringing Moses in.

Look to be real, I don’t see Horford as an ideal center. But as our discussion has shown, there are very few “ideal centers” out there. The question is not whether Horford can handle the position, but WHO ELSE if not him?

The examples that YOU gave were NOT an improvement over what he gives.
As I’ve clearly shown to you.

Maybe we can find some “beast” in the draft that will give us 12 and 6 and you’ll be happy since that’s what Dawkins did and he’s so high on your Center list.

Actually, that’s not fair. I know that we want the same thing, and that’s for our team to be successful. So keep thinking about it and come up with some VIABLE solutions to our “center problem”. Until then, hope that Horford improves his numbers to a degree that you can be comfy with him.

But the “solutions” you have suggested so far, have been shown to NOT be an improvement over what we already have. Or did I read that efficiency rating all wrong?

Sautee

June 19th, 2009
2:52 pm

Truth serum,

One more thing. Darryl Dawkins career block numbers: 1.4 gm

Al Horford 08-09: 1.42 blocks / gm.

Wabe

June 19th, 2009
3:55 pm

Why are people so intent on turning this team upside down and shrinking the window of opportunity that this team might have to contend for a championship…

Honestly, I would be surprised IF the wizards would ever accept your offer Bradley. But let’s say they did, at 29, how many more years does Caron have in his prime? I would consider this an upgrade, but how can you tell me that at age 29, Marvin won’t be playing as well as Caron is now. Also, this trade would make more sense if the Hawks needed that MISSING PEICE to contend for a championship – but as of now – the Hawks are in no postion to contend for anything more than a first round playoff series win. I would honestly rather keep Marvin at this point than bring in Caron.

Wabe

June 19th, 2009
3:56 pm

Remember when the Hawks traded Pau Gasol for Shareef?

Where’s Shareef now?

Didn’t Pau Gasol just win a championship?

I can see the same thing happening with Marvin and Caron if this deal were to ever happen…

jdewayneatl

June 19th, 2009
4:10 pm

Truth serum,

How can you vouch for Aaron Gray, a CENTER who averaged 3.5 ppg and 3.9 ppg in the regular season and 0.0 ppg and 0.5 ppg in the playoffs but you can’t get over prooving that Al Horford’s numbers show that he’s not a true center. True Gray is a rookie but Al posted avgs of 10.1 ppg and 9.7 rpg in the regular season and 12.6 ppg and 10.4 rpg in the playoffs as a rookie. He averaged a double double in the playoffs against the eventual NBA Champions. Not to mention HE WAS HEALTHY.

Come on man, you don’t have a valid argument. You’re trying to be right but you are wrong buddy. Horford is only coming into his 3rd year in the league. He’s 22. Be real dude.

truth-serum

June 19th, 2009
4:24 pm

The answer to your question is no. Here is the copy and paste. One is a response to what Chris War said and I agreed with about the the Rookie and the other is a copy and paste of Obriens statement that i wanted to acknowledge for its correctness and went further to show options. Okafor was never mentioned and what what level of talent they exhibit wasnt mention. By the way Lopez ate Horfords lunch when they met. Twice! Grey also did very well and although being a rookie was given signigicant minutes against Horford. Grey will be a force soon. I dont know that Camby and Horford have met.

Please learn to read what is stated and not with your emotions. Perhaps you should get some therapy.

truth-serum
June 17th, 2009
11:51 pm

chris warr
June 17th, 2009
11:22 pm

DITTO ON GREY. THE YOUNG MAN IS IMPOSING AND WILL ONLY GET BETTER AND IS A NATURAL CENTER!

June 18th, 2009
10:54 am
O’brien,

The real problem here is that BK signed too many players that play the same position!!!

I just thought Id acknowledge the truth in your statement. Thats what happens when you draft for best available athlete rather than for need. The hawks need a center, so they go after a guard or another forward.

Grey, lopez,Camby,Hasheem Thabeet, there are options if you want to put together a team.

Now get a chair and make it face the corner of the room. Sit down in it and face the wall. You clearly need some time out. Sit there to Horford becomes a center.

Jay

June 19th, 2009
4:25 pm

Truth serum,

When you listed the roster of the University of Florida basketball team, you did notice that no one on the roster was listed strictly as a Center, right? Did you watch them play? Did you notice who always defended the other team’s center? Think back, who guarded Oden in the championship game?

You found websites that reported Mourning’s weight as 260 lbs. and you reported Horford’s weight as 240lbs. Basketball-reference.com reports that Alonzo Mourning weighed 240 lbs. and Moses Malone weighed 215 lbs. when they entered the league. Like almost every NBA player, they gained weight as they matured. Mourning probably weighed 260 lbs. when he reached his prime and we know that Malone weighed more than 260 in his prime. The same site reported that Horford weighed 245 lbs. when he entered the league. Isn’t it reasonable to believe that Horford will gain weight as he matures. So when Horford gains 20 lbs., which he will by the time he reaches his prime, will he no longer be an undersized center? Don’t get upset–I’m not being a smart aleck–I’m just asking.

Of the four guys you mentioned as legitimate centers-Okafor, Camby, Gray and Lopez-only Gray made the playoffs and he got no playing time. Other “legitimate” Centers like Washington’s Brendan Haywood (7′0″, 265 lbs.), the L.A. Clippers’ Chris Kaman (7′0″, 260 lbs.), Sacramento” Spencer Hawes (7′0″ 260 lbs) and Shaquille O’Neal (7′1″, 325+lbs.) didn’t make the playoffs, either.

Effective offensive basketball has always been based on creating and exploiting mismatches. The Hawks’ offense has been predicated on using Joe Johnson and Mike Bibby in the pick-and-roll to create open shots for Bibby or a size mismatch, one-on-one situation for Johnson. Because teams will double-team Johnson to negate the mismatch, Josh Smith, considered the worst frontcourt shooter, gets a lot of shots. This offensive approach means that no Hawks’ center or small forward will be a primary offensive option, so expecting either of them to score twenty points a game is unrealistic.

Should the Hawks look to obtain another Center, especially one who has offensive skills? Certainly, because that can only help. Can Horford play power forward? Certainly–against some teams. But there are many teams (Dallas, Golden State, New York, New Jersey, Indiana, Milwaukee, Washington and Orlando to name a few) that have a power forward who offensive game is perimeter-based and that is not Horford’s defensive strong-suit.
The Hawks will be better next year because Smith, Horford and Williams will be better than they were last season but everyone knows that a lack of quality depth is the Hawks’ major shortcoming. Finding a starting point guard and getting four veterans for the bench are the Hawk priorities. Yes, one of those veterans should be a Center and it would be great if he had offensive skills (Rasho Nesterovic-a “legitimate” Center- comes to mind) but since defense wins championships, and playing effective defense calls for quickness rather than size, why are you so concerned about how tall someone is or how much they weigh.

You’re obviously a passionate fan who wants to see the Hawks win championships. However, thinking that obtaining a “legitimate” Center and moving Horford to power forward is the move that will turn the Hawks into a championship contending team is misguided and wrongheaded.

truth-serum

June 19th, 2009
4:27 pm

Sautee

June 19th, 2009
2:52 pm

the above post is the answer to your foolish questioning.

truth-serum

June 19th, 2009
4:51 pm

Jay

June 19th, 2009
4:25 pm

I respect your opinion. Fair enough. We agree on more than we disagree. Yes Moses and Zo as rookies had different weights than their mature weights. Of course the biographer I mentioned note that Moses played forward until his body matured to take the punishment of the position. I did not find any web sites that reported anything different that the playing weights of the centers. I check more than one.

Just because you have the main ingredient of a serious center on your team it’s not a lock to the championship. You need the trimmings too. But I am clear when I say you won’t win without it. Understand the difference to what I say.

I never said anything about Okafor so you are miss quoting me as is Sautee.

I agree with you about some of the limitations in Horfords game. I did not roast you because I see an element of objectivity in your analysis. There are more limitations to Horfords game than is covered here.

You are entitled to your opinion of my summary. I v e been wrong a time or two in my life. I don’t think this is one of them.

BTW Grey is a rookie. He had no trouble with Hordford, neither did Lopez.

Id like to add that having said all that. I do think Horford will have a longer career at forward and that he needs to develop an offensive cache. A midrange jumper and a post up baby hook would not hurt. Developing his left hand will be great.

Sautee

June 19th, 2009
5:02 pm

Jay,

Excellent post

Truth serum,

These are your words: “The hawks need a center, so they go after a guard or another forward.

Grey, lopez,Camby,Hasheem Thabeet, there are options if you want to put together a team.”

So this means somehow that you DIDN’T suggest Gay, Lopez, and Camby as potential centers for the Hawks?

LOL, I guess I’m missing Something!!!!

Go ahead a try to split THIS hair. And tell me why you picked Dawkins as an example, while your at it. 12 and 6 WOW!

You can try to be insulting, or demeaning, but it won’t make me go away. If you want to post on a sports blog, you’ll run the risk of coming across people who’ll insist that you stand behind your words. If that bothers you, maybe you shouldn’t be posting things you can’t back up.

I know, next you’ll tell me I’m “taking it out of context”, right?

You either brought up their names or you didn’t. And you did.

truth-serum

June 19th, 2009
5:05 pm

Sautee

June 19th, 2009
2:52 pm

You are sooooo misguided. Dont come out of the corner because Horford is not a center yet. Stay.
I know this is hard for you and Ken. Being a center is not about rebounds. I’ve said that so much and you do receive it. Your powerforward often times is the team rebounder ala Dennis Rodman.

Let me suggest you get a book on the basics and then work your
Way up….intermediate…etcetera.

I have concluded by observing you that you actually enjoy being ignorant.

One day you’ll know what a center is.

Mark Bradley

June 19th, 2009
5:27 pm

Next week’s Face Off: Jeff Schultz and I debate whether Al Horford is a center.

(I’m kidding. I think.)

Sautee

June 19th, 2009
5:28 pm

Truth serum,

your words to me from your 11:55 a.m June 18 post:

“A good center(not a great one but a good one)would be capable of bringing 14-16 points per night with 12-14 rebounds and 2-3 block shots. Like say a ‘Mutumbo’.”

And now from your 5:05: “Being a center is not about rebounds. I’ve said that so much and you do receive it.”

Can you explain? You know I’m awfully ignorant?

And tell me other than Dwight Howard, which center in the league can deliver 14-16 points AND 12-14 rebounds AND 2-3 blocked shots?

You know, a good center not a great one. I guess like Darryl Dawkins 12 and 6.

No wait, that’s WAY short of 14 and 12. OOPS.

Sautee

June 19th, 2009
5:32 pm

Truth serum,

I’ll be a man. I apologize to you for including Okafor in the list of centers you suggested. I looked back and saw that you were correct about not including him.

My humblest apology.

Jay

June 19th, 2009
5:40 pm

truth serum

You’re right–we do agree on more than we disagree. Horford is best served as a low-post player and having another “big” to back him up or play along side of him can’t hurt. He definitely needs to work on being more consistent with his short-range jumper and improving his offensive moves which leads me to a question.

Who is helping him with that part of his game? For that matter, who is helping any of the Hawks with their game this off-season? Is it against the rules for the Hawks to hire “consultants” to help players improve their game. and Here’s the thing–there’s no starting Center who is so good, affordable and (here’s the key) available for the Hawks to obtain without trading Josh Smith (and no one wants to pay the $6 million trade kicker built in to Smith’s contract) or Joe Johnson (and no one wants to trade for him only to see him leave in free agency after only one year).

Well, one second thought, there is one team that would be willing to make such a deal for Joe Johnson and I’m certain that the New York Knicks would be willing to send Eddy Curry to the Hawks in exchange for Joe Johnson (only kidding!)

Here’s something else that has me a bit perplexed. Didn’t Mark Bradley report that GM Sund believes that you can realisitically compete for a championship if each of your starters is one of the top ten players at that position–the 2004 Detroit Pistons as the model example for this approach. What about your coach? Does your coach need to be one of the top ten coaches in order for the team to win a championship? Of course, that leads to the next question–Is Coach Woodson one of the top ten coaches in the league?

Without a doubt, coaches like Phil Jackson, Greg Popovich, Jerry Sloan, Don Nelson and Larry Brown are in the top ten. Then there are less heralded veterans who have done well in different places like Rick Adelman, George Karl, Flip Saunders, Rick Carlisle, Nate McMillian and Byron Scott. Then there are guys who have shown the ability to win with good talent but not do too much with questionable talent; guys like Doc Rivers, Eddie Jordan, Scott Skiles and Lawrence Frank. Then there are guys who haven’t coached for a long time but have done pretty well so far, guys like Mike Brown, Mike D’Antoni and Stan Van Gundy.

That’s eighteen guys for consideration as part of the top ten coaches in the league and I’ve left coaches like Mike Dunleavy and Jim O’Brien off of the list (for no special reason). Does Coach Woodson belong in the top ten and is it necessary to have a top ten head coach to win a championship? Any possibilty that Sund refused to extend Woodson’s contract because the players have tuned Woodson out?

AB

June 19th, 2009
5:56 pm

If I were Rick Sund, I would keep Marvin and Acie. Let go Woody (their going to be nothing under him), and move Smoove back to SF. If the Hawks keep Horford at C, then they should be looking at a PF, not SF. J-Smoove doesn’t look like a PF (in my opinion), I do agree that Horford’s a C, he’s just under-sized. The Hawks should get a guy LIKE Carlos Boozer (not suggesting we should get Boozer). And, he has to be a legit scoring weapon to help our offense out.

Jay

June 19th, 2009
6:02 pm

And truth serum,

I also apologize about including Okafor in the list of centers. One of Charlotte’s major problems has been finding the right Center to play along side of Okafor-who’s best position is power forward while still finding time, and a place, for Boris Diaw.

Often, but not always, guys who are tall and slender like Okafor, Kevin Garnett and Ralph Sampson (how’s that for old school) are better as forwards while guys who are tall and thickly-built (Nazr Mohammed, Kendrick Perkins and Hakeem Olajuwon) are better as Centers. There’s no doubt that Horford is thickly-built, as is Pachulia, which is probably why the Hawks’ management and coaches think Center is his best position.

Again, truth serum, please accept my apology.

jdewayneatl

June 19th, 2009
6:17 pm

Truth serum and others,

Hypothetically, if the Hawks and Suns decided to swap Josh Smith for Amare Staudamire, who would play CENTER for the Hawks Staudamire or Al Horford?

Staudamire – 6′10” and 249 lbs
Horford – 6′10 and 245 lbs

Sautee

June 19th, 2009
6:21 pm

Truth serum,

I see that you are subtly changing the subject. My beef with you was / is that the examples you gave of a “true center”, that is: Gray, Lopez and Camby didn’t produce much more, if any more, than Horford did.

I NEVER argued that Horford WAS a center, just that he “PLAYED” center as well or better than your examples.

Now somehow that morphs into me “not knowing” what a center is. Two totally different arguments.

The VERY FIRST thing I posted to you was in reference to your comment that
“power forwards can give you minutes at center, but not a career”

to which I said “ummm…….. Ben Wallace, Dave Cowens, Wes Unseld”

Come to think of it, you never responded to that.

We can agree to disagree about “what a center is”, but don’t think from my vehemence in defending the job Horford does “playing center” that I THINK he’s a center. Two different things.

I don’t have rose colored glasses regarding Al. His post game needs a LOT of work, as does his turnaround j. But he’s solid and reliable and getting better as he goes. He makes EXCELLENT decisions, which is why I’ve said for the last year an a half that we should go through him more on offense.

And I’d welcome a sane discussion about what a center is. Of course it can and should vary with the offensive system, and the personnel group. You somehow seem threatened by the idea of Horford as a center. I just see him as the best “player” we have for the 5 spot right now. And the alternatives you named had similar production to what we have already. What’s keeping you from acknowledging that?

truth-serum

June 19th, 2009
6:32 pm

Jay

June 19th, 2009
5:40 pm

Apology accepted.

Yes, Woody made the top ten in the coach of the year polls. Number 9 to be precise The Hawks are in transiton the past 2 years waiting to see who would adapt and raise there game. I an not a Woody hater. Now Im not Dont agree that Horford is a center Im clear about that. On one hand you say every body gets better with playing time when you dont want to give Woody credit for what he has done. On the other hand you say whose going to develop these inexperience players. I say Woody has done a fine Job and is winning with inexperienced players. Cant have it both ways.

What did JJ do during the off season to keep his game tight? Marvin Williams? Flip? Tell Horford and the rest of the guys to do the same. Gentlemen. At the end of the day its up to the individual to better his game. You momma doesnt work here. If I value my job and make millions id hire who I need to work with my game.

But the question is Why work on trying to make a powerforward into a center? When you could get… a center?

AB

June 19th, 2009
6:35 pm

Jay,

I agree, man. You can’t expect top 10-12 talent to respond to an realistly top 20 ranged coach! In order to win, the coach has to be either on the same level or higher to succeed. And, the reason I think the Hawks are so successful so early is because of the players, not the coach. Taking the Celtics to 7 games (in your first playoff appearence, really), advancing to the 2nd Round of the playoffs the following year, those are things other young teams haven’t accomplished yet (not saying they won’t), but the Hawks should really pat themselfs on the back. If they’ve made this much progess so early, why are people suggesting trading Josh? To be honest, sometimes when I watch Hawks games I forget they have a coach, because it’s like their in their own league, and no coach is there. Mike Woodson has done all he can as a coach, but it’s time for him to go. The team knows defense well now, now it’s time to get an offensive mined coach that teaches player devolopment. Next thing you know, the Hawks are Conference snd Division champs!

truth-serum

June 19th, 2009
6:36 pm

Sautee

June 19th, 2009
6:21 pm

What’s keeping you from acknowledging that?

Im waiting for your understanding of what the center positon entails to come to fruition.

jdewayneatl

June 19th, 2009
6:17 pm

I think id take Staudamire because of the scoring threat he brings to the table. Can you post the offensive numbers?

truth-serum

June 19th, 2009
6:40 pm

Jay

June 19th, 2009
5:40 pm

There’s no doubt that Horford is thickly-built, as is Pachulia, which is probably why the Hawks’ management and coaches think Center is his best position.

Horford is underweight and frail for a center. He got the job because ZaZa top this turnover Pachulia turn into Koncak. The orginal intent was to have Horford as a powerforward and ZaZa the starting center.

Lets be honest.

jdewayneatl

June 19th, 2009
7:00 pm

truth-serum,

Thanks for finally answering with a direct answer. I think everyone who has tried to talk some sense into your thick skull can appreciate that. But of course Staudamire’s offensive numbers are better, no one can dispute that. But the real test of a center comes on the defensive end. Who guards the other team’s center. And I’m saying this, quote it, put it up in lights, Horford is the BETTER DEFENDER.

But to answer my own question, it really wouldn’t matter. Same height and practically same weight.

And throughout this blog you have continually contradicted yourself and flip flopped more than the candidates in the 2008 Presidenial race. How could you say “There’s no doubt that Horford is thickly-built” and in the next few lines say “Horford is underweight and frail for a center.” And my point of the Amare situation was to show the similarities between Horford and another dominant big man that doesn’t qualify as a “legitimate center.”

And the original intent was to not give Zaza’s starting job to a rookie right away. It was gonna happen eventually but Zaza’s injury at the beginning of the 07-08 season allowed it to happen a little faster.

AB

June 19th, 2009
7:07 pm

I know I said Horford WAS a C, I made a mistake, dammit. But how can people say Horford’s a C, when he’s 6′10, 245 lbs. Let’s name some under-sized C…

Emeka Okafor (with no doubt isn’t a C)

Marcus Camby (he’s under-sized in weight)

Al Jefferson & Kendrick Perkins (thick, but both lack height, only 6′10)

Joakim Noah (Al’s former teammate at Flordia, lacks bulk)

Marcin Gotat & “Birdman” Chris Andersen (both lack thickness, Birdman lacks height)

Mr. Amazing

June 19th, 2009
7:09 pm

Keep marvin and bibby trade josh smith for caron bulter and they will be one of the teams that everyone will try to beat

Mr. Amazing

June 19th, 2009
7:12 pm

They should also trade ZaZa for chris Anderson and get another Center from the free agency

jdewayneatl

June 19th, 2009
7:13 pm

Truth serum,

How can you vouch for Aaron Gray, a CENTER who averaged 3.5 ppg and 3.9 ppg in the regular season and 0.0 ppg and 0.5 ppg in the playoffs but you can’t get over prooving that Al Horford’s numbers show that he’s not a true center. True Gray is a rookie but Al posted avgs of 10.1 ppg and 9.7 rpg in the regular season and 12.6 ppg and 10.4 rpg in the playoffs as a rookie. He averaged a double double in the playoffs against the eventual NBA Champions. Not to mention HE WAS HEALTHY.

Come on man, you don’t have a valid argument. You’re trying to be right but you are wrong buddy. Horford is only coming into his 3rd year in the league. He’s 22. Be real dude.

You never answered this one.

AB

June 19th, 2009
7:18 pm

One thing the Hawks need to get straight is the lineup. Is Horford a C or a PF? And, is Josh Smith a PF or a SF? Just because Horford and Josh are doing well at their current positions doesn’t mean they naturally fit those positions.

AB

June 19th, 2009
7:22 pm

Mr. Amazing,

I doubt the Nuggets pay “Birdman” $4-$8 million so that they can get an over-payed C in return. Be realistic, man!

jdewayneatl

June 19th, 2009
7:23 pm

Truth serum,

How can you vouch for Aaron Gray, a CENTER who averaged 3.5 ppg and 3.9 ppg in the regular season and 0.0 ppg and 0.5 ppg in the playoffs but you can’t get over prooving that Al Horford’s numbers show that he’s not a true center. True Gray is a rookie but Al posted avgs of 10.1 ppg and 9.7 rpg in the regular season and 12.6 ppg and 10.4 rpg in the playoffs as a rookie. He averaged a double double in the playoffs against the eventual NBA Champions. Not to mention HE WAS HEALTHY.

Come on man, you don’t have a valid argument. You’re trying to be right but you are wrong buddy. Horford is only coming into his 3rd year in the league. He’s 22. Be real dude.

You never answered this one.

Also here are the numbers comparatively for Horford and Staudamire:

Al Horford Amare Staudamire

PPG 11.5 PPG 21.4
RPG 9.3 RPG 8.1
APG 2.4 APG 2.0
SPG 0.8 SPG 0.9
BPG 1.4 BPG 1.1
FG% 0.525 FG% 0.539
FT% 0.727 FT% 0.835
3P% 0.000 3P% 0.429
MPG 33.5 MPG 36.8

Sautee

June 19th, 2009
7:57 pm

Truth serum,

What’s keeping you from acknowledging that?

“Im waiting for your understanding of what the center positon entails to come to fruition.”

Yeah, like THAT should matter about ANYTHING. In other words, you don’t WANT to admit my point. So you hide behind some BS position (or is it positon?) in order to run, once again from the truth.

How ironic considering your nomme de blog.

C’mon, truth serum, man up. I was man enough to apologize and you can’t even acknowledge THAT. Do you really lack that much self confidence?

truth-serum

June 19th, 2009
8:59 pm

jdewayneatl

June 19th, 2009
7:23 pm
jdewayneatl

June 19th, 2009
7:00 pm

Good evening.

I understand that you are confused. Let me see if I can help you.
You gave this statement concerning me.

And throughout this blog you have continually contradicted yourself and flip flopped more than the candidates in the 2008 Presidenial race. How could you say “There’s no doubt that Horford is thickly-built” and in the next few lines say “Horford is underweight and frail for a center.”

Here is the truth.

The first part of the statement was given as a copy and paste of Jay statement.
Jay

June 19th, 2009
5:40 pm

Then the is three blank lines seperating my comment from his. It was a contrast. His statement. Blank spacing… my corrections. Go back and read it again.

Secondly. You asked my opinion on the Horford/amare proposal and I choose Amare for his clearly dominant offensive tools. Their defensive numbers are almost identical according to what you posted. If you situation came to pass I would prefer Amare in the middle because he can shoot the three and take his man out side which would unclogg the middle for slashers and creators. I could run so many plays with him in a half court set. Or I could let him post. Id probably let Horford concentrate of grabing rebounds and setting picks since hes limited offensively and only marginal defensively. That for me is a no brainer, and my opinion. I dont know how you can say that Horford has an advantage defensively, the steals, blocks and rebounds are pretty much even. I prefer the dynamics of Amare’s offense and what that brings. Josh isnt going any where.

How about we keep Josh and trade Horford for Amare…you think thats do able?

How can I choose Grey as a up and coming center? Did you see what he did against the Hawks? did you watch his play? Im not the only one on this site to acknowledge Grey. There was not the pressing need to man the post with chicago as it was with atlanta so Grey hasnt got as much time to showcase his talents. Yes, my scouting report favors him. Its not that he has had major time to compile numbers. He is physical and mans the position. Youll see. He had no problems against Horford. where were you?

Did you ask Horford about how Lopez at his lunch twice?

Sautee

June 19th, 2009
7:57 pm

Im having a moment of silence for you. I hope you will get better.

Jay

June 19th, 2009
9:26 pm

truth serum

Coming in ninth in the Coach of the Year balloting does not mean that Woodson is one of the top ten coaches in the league. More often than not, it is an award for dramatically improving a team’s record from the previous season. As a head coach, Phil Jackson has won ten world championships but only one Coach of the Year award. Greg Popovich has won four NBA titles but only one Coach of the Year award. Moreover, if Coach of the Year award meant anything, why did Avery Johnson and Sam Mitchell get fired the year after winning the award and why has Jerry Sloan, who has been on the job for over 20 years, never won the award.

No, I’m talking about coaches who are universally recognized as excellent coaches. While Jackson, Sloan, Popovich, Brown and Nelson are the top five, a better question is: Does Woodson belong in the next five? Now, I’ll admit that Coach Woodson has presided over a team that was totally imploded and has improved the Hawks record every year of his tenure. I also think he has made some questionable decisions regarding play-calling during games and some terrible decisions regarding the usage of personnel.

Think back to when Zaza Pachulia first came to the Hawks as a free agent. He was signed to serve as a back-up to Jason Collier. I remember Pachulia’s first year as a Hawk and how everyone raved about his performance. His game was similar to that of most European big men: a finesse player with some offensive skills but not a banger. But Woodson wanted Pachulia to become more like Collier–who tragically died that season–a physical presence on the inside. Woodson tried everything he could to make that happen; including a reducing Pachulia’s in playing time. For the past 3 years, it seemed as if Pachulia could do nothing right-only a playoff confrontation with Kevin Garnett kept the fans from completely turning on him. Forcing Pachulia, a finesse player, to become a banger and play a style that was not conducive to what he does best caused his entire game to suffer–much like forcing Boris Diaw to become an aggressive PG, when Diaw was best suited to be a passing big man, caused Diaw’s game to suffer. Look what a change of scenery did for Diaw’s game and the same could hold true for Pachulia.

Horford was not drafted to be a power forward, he was drafted to be a forward/center. He was not drafted to replace Pachulia, he was drafted to complement Pachulia and Shelden Williams. Remember, Knight valued versatility and felt that three centers (Pachulia, Williams and Horford) with four interchangeable primary players (Josh Smith, Marvin Williams, Josh Childress and Joe Johnson), a veteran PG (Speedy Claxton) and some additional young talent on the bench (Royal Ivey and Salim Stoudamire) with the right coach could eventually compete for a title–just like the Chicago Bulls of the 90’s. Knight wanted to fire Woodson because Woodson proved to not be the coach to fulfill Knight’s vision.

Now, let’s talk about improvement. After five years on your job, didn’t you become better at it than you were when you first started? Didn’t you have a better understanding of the do’s and the don’ts? Didn’t you learn the tricks of the trade that made it easier for you to do what you do? That’s the type of improvement all players make. What I’m talking about is the type of coaching that Kareem Abdul-Jabbar did with Andrew Bynum or what Patrick Ewing is doing with Dwight Howard. Is anyone doing that with Horford or any of the other Hawk players? If not, why not? I’m not saying that Woodson should be held responsible if that is not occurring. I’m simply stating that it should occur.

Now, let’s be honest. The Hawks have chosen to sign Josh Smith, an athletic power forward who block shots, likes/wants to score and can rebound, to a long-term contract. Horford’s style, as a banger, rebounder and interior defender, complements Smith’s style. With only four seven players under contract, there’s no one legitimate Center available to the Hawks in a trade. This year’s draft doesn’t have a Center the Hawks can draft who can make an immediate impact on the team’s record next season. Free agency has some Centers available but none of them are the type of player around whom you can build a championship team.

Bottom line is this: since you feel Horford is not a Center, and the Hawks have signed Josh Smith, a PF, to a long-term deal, tell me what Center, the guy around whom you can build a championship team, should the Hawks make a serious effort to obtain? Who or what should they give up to obtain that Center? and what makes you think his team would be willing to trade that Center to the Hawks?

Sautee

June 19th, 2009
9:35 pm

Truth serum,

your words to me from your 11:55 a.m June 18 post:

“A good center(not a great one but a good one)would be capable of bringing 14-16 points per night with 12-14 rebounds and 2-3 block shots. Like say a ‘Mutumbo’.”

And now from your 5:05: “Being a center is not about rebounds. I’ve said that so much and you do receive it.”

Sounds like YOU might be the one with a cloudy idea of what a center is. Now is it “capable of 12-14 rebounds” or is it “not about rebounds”?

Sounds contradictory to me.

And again, can you tell me other than Dwight Howard, which center in the league can deliver 14-16 points AND 12-14 rebounds AND 2-3 blocked shots?

That was your threshold for a “good (but not great) center”. Other than Howard, name one current player that can do that. Just one. I’ll wait.

For a little while, anyway.

Ken Strickland

June 19th, 2009
9:53 pm

TRUTH SERUM-there’s no doubt you love to hear yourself talk and you’re having the time of your life playing statistical dodge ball. You’re also engaging in an effort of futility by trying to show that you’re more intellegent than anyone else on these blogs, and satisfying that much needed craving for attention. I’m not interested in playing your games.

You’re so busy disecting everyone elses comments, and trying to put yourself upon an intellectual peddlestal at everyone elses expense, you can’t even comprehend the contridictions, misstatements and irrational comments you’re making.

This is one of the condescending comments you made to me. “YOU APPARENTLY DON’T UNDERSTAND WHAT A CENTER IS BECAUSE YOU KEEP REFERRING TO NUMBERS WHOSE REVELANCE IS MINUET. THE CENTER POST IS NOT ABOUT REBOUNDING”. Then you put your foot in your mouth by rendering one of your numerous contradictory statements. You said: “MALONE WAS AN IMMEDIATE SUCCESS IN THE ABA AVERAGING OVER 18PTS AND “14 REBOUNDS” AS A ROOKIE”. Out of one side of your mouth, you render stats meaningless or minuet, when it comes to judging Horford’s ability to play center. Then, out of the other side of you mouth, you use those same meaningless or minuet stats, as you called them, especially rebounds, to show how great MMalone was as a rookie. IF YOU CAN’T SEE THE HYPROCRACY IN THOSE TWO CONTRADICTORY STATEMENTS, THEN YOU NEED HELP BECAUSE YOU’RE WAIST DEEP IN DENIAL.

REMEMBER, USING WORDS TO TRY AND PROMOTE A SENSE OF INTELLECTUAL SUPERIORITY IS MEANINGLESS IF YOU DON’T HAVE AN INTELLINGENT OR LOGICAL THOUGHT TO BACK THOSE WORDS UP, AND SO FAR YOU DON’T.

Wabe

June 19th, 2009
11:38 pm

Can’t stop laughing.

Good one Sautee. Waiting to hear a response to that one.

Chico27

June 20th, 2009
3:13 am

Leave it to the Hawks organization to trade a talent like Marvin so that he can go shine elsewhere… On a separate note, I swear if they let Josh go to Cleveland i will never watch a Hawks game again!!! Cleveland would be unstoppable with smooth over there and the Hawks would go back to a 15-20 wins per season team!!! Keep the core group and bring in a dominant big man!!!

jdewayneatl

June 20th, 2009
4:58 am

Truth-serum,

You’re exactly right and I’m definitely wrong. Your comment was a contrast between the two stand points. So just like Sautee, I stand corrected and I man up to say that I was wrong.

But I still stand by the fact that you have contradicted yourself several times in this blog. One minute you’re asking for numbers, the next its “Did you see what he did against the Hawks? did you watch his play?” Well I’ve seen Horford play and he has more skill and talent and will be the better player playing the Center position. In the NBA a single game doesn’t make you a good player. Its the collection of 82 games in a season (and the playoffs) that measures a players ability and worth. I’m sure that Horford would have similar and probably better stats if he was in Chicago. Chicago has been looking for a low post score and defender for a long time. Noah doesn’t have the offensive skill of Horford and has gone back and forth from starter to bench and back again. They shipped Ben off to Cleveland because he couldn’t score. Drew Gooden is in San Antonio. Eddie Curry was a bust. They didn’t wait for Tyson Chandler to develop, but then again maybe he just benefited from having one of the best point guards in the game throw him lobs all game.

And again the Amare question was basically to show that both players are very similar in size and that both players could play the position. Like I said, to me it wouldn’t matter. So I’m not arguing your point. Amare at the 5 and Horford at the 4 or vice versa would be a great frontline. But it doesn’t matter because its all hypothetical lol.

jdewayneatl

June 20th, 2009
5:13 am

Sautee,

I totally agree with Wabe. That is a good one and I wonder if Truth-serum will give another straight forward answer. And you know those stats sound like something only Dwight could do. Garnett has only done it once in his career (only because he isn’t a dominant shot blocker) and Duncan has done it over the course of his career. Wow! Truth-serum had to be dreaming when he thought up those numbers for just a “good” center.

truth-serum

June 20th, 2009
9:12 am

Ken Strickland

June 19th, 2009
9:53 pm

Good Morning.

Let’s see if I can help clear up your confusion.
The line you refer to concerning Moses Malone was an excerpt from a biography online whose author is unknown to me. If you Google Moses Malone I’m sure you will find it. The reason I selected that passage was the author’s reference to the fact that Moses, though having a set of natural skills (a rookie who could board and score), was left to play the forward position until his body matured to accept the punishment of the center position. His center playing weight was above 260. His forward weight was 235-240.
It’s unfortunate that you got stuck of the fact that the Man produced great numbers as a rookie.

Yes Ken, I am saying the center post is not all about rebounds but position control. I can use my power forwards to grab board’s ala Dennis Rodman. Darryl Dawkins was not used to grab board but to control the flow of traffic and intimidate in the paint. It’s an instinctive position that comes to some naturally. On occasions hed break a backboard or two just to let people know what kind of power was in the middle. “Don’t bring yours in here”. In addition to having the territorial instincts of a posts player it is certainly an advantage if you can bring an offensive cache with you and certainly Moses and Darryl Dawkins, Alonzo Mourning brought that to the table. This is significant because of what those tools bring to the movement on the floor. A good center would allow JJ, Marv and Josh to take their games off the chain. I’d have to write a book to tell you all the options and flow that would develop as a result of a territorial minded and offensively equipped center. The least of the tools necessary (not that it’s not good to have) is rebounding. If a center boxes his man or protects certain real estate let someone else pick up the garbage. If he’s altering the shots, forcing opponents out and causing misses, the least you can do is pick up the rebound for him.

jdewayneatl

June 20th, 2009
4:58 am

I agree a single game does not spell a career. I do think that head to head match ups are revealing. The Hawks had no answer for Lopez and he manned the paint against Horford, every time we played them, why do you think New Jersey a team that did not make the playoffs beat us 2 out of 3?
My scouting report has Grey with the instinctive post abilities and will be a good center as he grows. He will need to develop his offense.

Jay
June 19th, 2009
9:26 pm

ZaZa Pachulia the slowest guy in the NBA, started the first two years he arrived here as a free agent. His lack of athleticism led him to the bench (not Woody). Horford was not drafted to be the center but was the “best athlete available” at number 3.

Chico27
June 20th, 2009
3:13 am
I couldn’t agree more. Good insight!

jdewayneatl
June 20th, 2009
5:13 am
Mutombo was a good center but not a great center (no hall of famer) but those were easily obtainable for him. It’s not that you put those numbers up every night but the threat that you can put those up every night is what you are missing. Just the threat of the potential makes opposing coaches scheme their defensive plays with you in mind.
Try not to confuse capable with actual. Most teams when they know your potential will send help to keep that from happeing so your numbers may go down but the effect on the team in that it frees others is clear.
Try not to confuse capable with actual.

I’ve never said you need to average those numbers I said you need to have the potential to put those up….and don’t tell me about the four time or five times in Horford career that he put up decent number.

I have spelled out clearly that Horford is undersized, non instinctive or territorial as a center, 0 offensive weaponry and is a power forward. The Hawks would be better serve with him being modeled after Dennis Rodman than Tim Duncan.
Those are my views, agree or disagree is your right. Vie discussed this indebt, I’m moving on to a different subject.

Sautee

June 19th, 2009
9:35 pm
Have a nice day

truth-serum

June 20th, 2009
9:43 am

jdewayneatl

June 19th, 2009
7:13 pm
Truth serum,

How can you vouch for Aaron Gray, a CENTER who averaged 3.5 ppg and 3.9 ppg in the regular season and 0.0 ppg and 0.5 ppg in the playoffs

You never answered this one.

Grey averaged 4.5 minute in the playoffs. Those numbers say nothing for his ability.

G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF TOT APG SPG BPGTO PF PPG
56 18 12.8 .485 .000 .576 1.50 2.40 3.90 .8 .25 .32 .71 2.40 3.5

These are his numbers with a 12.8 minutes agame average. Do the math and figure what they would be over a complete game. he wouldnt be far from what im looking for. This is his rookie season. The Kids got potential.

Sautee

June 20th, 2009
10:15 am

Truth serum,

your words to me from your 11:55 a.m June 18 post:

“A good center(not a great one but a good one)would be capable of bringing 14-16 points per night with 12-14 rebounds and 2-3 block shots. Like say a ‘Mutumbo’.

Notice that you said “per night”. THAT’S THE KEY PHRASE.

Your words to jdewayneatl this morning:

”Mutombo was a good center but not a great center (no hall of famer) but those were easily obtainable for him. It’s not that you put those numbers up every night but the threat that you can put those up every night is what you are missing.It’s not that you put those numbers up every night but the threat that you can put those up every night is what you are missing.”

AHA, the story seems to be changing, eh?

If it’s NOT that you put those numbers up every night, then why did you say “per night”? You are trying VERY HARD to change the story now that you are painted into a corner.

You a so full of it and you are caught in your own lies.

“I’ve never said you need to average those numbers I said you need to have the potential to put those up…

More BS because as you and the entire blog can PLAINLY see, you DID say “per night”. Now you’ll try to tell us that “per night” doesn’t mean “average”.

I hope you have some paint remover for getting out of that corner. LOL!

Sautee

June 20th, 2009
10:21 am

Truth serum,

You said this to Ken S.: “Darryl Dawkins was not used to grab board but to control the flow of traffic and intimidate in the paint. It’s an instinctive position that comes to some naturally.”

Darryl Dawkins, for all of his controlling traffic and intimidating in the paint, averaged 1.4 blocks per game for his career.

Al Horford in 08-09 averaged 1.42 blocks.

Sautee

June 20th, 2009
11:48 am

jdewayneatl,

Maybe THIS will help: Aaron Gray started 18 games for CHI. this year. Here are his totals for those games:

4.1 points, 5.7 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 0.33 blocks

Does THIS clear things up?

Jay

June 20th, 2009
2:13 pm

truth serum

I’d be OK with the idea of obtaining a Center from Chicago–but it needs to be Brad Miller not Aaron Gray.

I’d even be Ok with obtaining Gray as a third string Center–just like he is in Chicago. Even though I think Randolph Morris has more potential than Gray, I’d still be OK with that move–not thrilled but OK.

When Gray had the chance to keep the starting job in Chicago, he couldn’t because he wasn’t ready for it. In fact, he is far from ready to make a significant impact on any NBA team at this point in his career, let alone be a starter for a playoff team.

This Hawk team just reached the second round of the playoffs and are looking to advance to the Conference Championship round. Are you seriously suggesting that obtaining Aaron Gray and making him their starting center is the move that will make the Hawks legitimate contenders for the conference championship?

Sautee

June 20th, 2009
3:15 pm

Jay,

Good points

truth-serum

June 20th, 2009
4:08 pm

Sautee
June 20th, 2009
10:15 am
Yes, brainfart, he should be capable of it every night. Capable is the key word loser. You aren’t very bright are you? For the hearing impaired. CAPABLE IS NOT ACTUAL…DDUHH! Capable means if you don’t put an able defender to stay with me at all times this is what’s going to happen to you. Is this really that difficult for you to receive, Sautee. Do you see why I ignore you? Get in to some counseling and hit me back when you are better. How can I talk with you of higher things when you can’t understand basics?

Jay
June 20th, 2009
2:13 pm
Grey is a rookie, or was this year. He wasn’t the starter. He may have fill in and started by he was not the starter. That’s misinformation. That was ZAZA the continuous turnover that lost the starting job. I see that if the hawks keep this nucleus together they will have a 5 or 6 year window. I still say they are plenty of options available. Right now the center post is our weakest position and we will not get far unless we address it.

Don’t put words in my mouth.

Sautee

June 20th, 2009
10:21 am
You are clueless. Don’t you have a house you can haunt?

Jay

June 19th, 2009
9:26 pm

“He was not drafted to replace Pachulia; he was drafted to complement Pachulia”

I will agree with you that Horford was not drafted to be the center. That was Pachulia’s job. All power forwards are a compliment to the center.

Sautee

June 20th, 2009
11:48 am

Yea, that clears up a lot. I thought you were retarded. Now I’m sure!

Fellows I appreciate moving the topic from an exchange of guards to the dire need for a center. I guess it’s the Hawk’s most pressing need and we’ve had some extensive conversation about it. I’m not the GM so he will call the shots. I will conclude that there are quite a few options out there. I don’t care for whiners. I appreciate the man that makes it happen.
Jay…don’t hate. Congratulate…Woodson on another successful year. He’ll be back next year so you can hate some more then. I guess you hate in the off season too. Haters will hate. It overwhelms your crew here so much to they can’t think straight…

Your writings have been reduced to your opinions. You are entitled to them. I’m glad you stop making blanket statements.

Michael Vick any one?

Sautee

June 20th, 2009
4:32 pm

Truth serum,

You said this: “I still say they are plenty of options available. Right now the center post is our weakest position and we will not get far unless we address it.”

Care to name some that actually out perform what we already have?

The ones you named before… Camby, Lopez and Gray, were not an upgrade from Horford “playing center”.

Despite Horford having the fewest touches on our starting team.

truth-serum

June 20th, 2009
4:35 pm

Tyrus Thomas , CHI
7 27.9 20 23 2.86
Kendrick Perkins , BOS
13 36.4 35 48 2.69
Dwight Howard , ORL
23 39.2 60 102 2.61
Joakim Noah , CHI
7 38.7 15 31 2.14
Dwyane Wade , MIA
7 40.7 11 20 1.57
Josh Smith , ATL
11 37.3 17 36 1.54
Samuel Dalembert , PHI
6 22.2 9 24 1.5
Jermaine O’Neal , MIA
6 27.0 9 18 1.5
Joel Anthony , MIA
6 14.7 7 9 1.17
Anderson Varejao , CLE
14 30.0 16 49 1.14

this is this years top ten in blks. Horford was number 19 b

Dawkins 1.47 block for a career would be a great achievement. Im sure at some point people stop going in there because they new what the results would be.

Yes Horford had one decent year blocking shots. Now hes down to 19. Pathetic for a starting center. His average was .67. That explains why guys like 5′10″ Tony Parker run down his throat.

Here is the ZaZa top this turnover Pachulia…number 39 on the list behind josh(#6),Al(#19)

Marvin Williams , ATL
6 16.2 2 8 .33
Ben Wallace , CLE
14 12.6 4 13 .29
Maurice Evans , ATL
11 24.1 3 29 .27
Ronald Murray , ATL
11 31.0 3 17 .27
Zaza Pachulia , ATL
11 23.7 3 40 .27

So Big Al blocks .67 and Z .27 Yeah I like Dawkins at 1.47 per game.
That .33 block that Grey had would put him 3rd on the hawks with only 18 games to compile the number. Yeah I like this kid.

Yes. the Hawks are handicapped at the center spot. Where not going to stop anyone with ZAZA and Horford.

truth-serum

June 20th, 2009
4:37 pm

All would be an upgrade over the open lane policy we have now!!

cory

June 20th, 2009
4:38 pm

jay & AB,

very good points in your 5:40 & 6:35(respectively) comments about woodson not even close to being in the top 20 (20 is my opinion). i have no problem with preaching defense to his team, but at the same time, he still has work with his players offensively & using their strengths against other teams. no matter what he truth serum says to support woody, woody still is not a good coach, he hinders this teams greatness. he is merely ok. he wont let his team run, which they clearly need to be doing. if he develops his young guys like he should be doing, he would see that acie could very well lead this team( provided he gets the playing time needed to really show what he can do). theres no way he can just come out & do what woody wants if woody wont play him.

sam mitchell still doesnt have a job. thoughts?

truth-serum

June 20th, 2009
4:40 pm

jdewayneatl

June 20th, 2009
4:58 am

I like your Horford, Amare Idea as well. It would be sweet…except neither one is a shot blocker.

jojo sunshine

June 20th, 2009
5:07 pm

Mark I think Caron Butler did what he did because he had to on a very bad team. I think Marvin Williams is getting better. I would not trade him, but if we trade him trade him to Minnesota and get two draft picks. If you throw in Speedy or Acie we might get all 3 of their picks. Then we have 4 picks in the first round and we still have some intangibles (Bibby’s massive contract that will come off the books next year I think, Josh Smith’s athleticism, Joe Johnson’s shooting touch).
I would definitely draft Stephen Curry – the best shooter and scorer to come out of the draft in a long time. We might even get the Clips to trade for a couple of picks and Josh Smith and then we get the best athlete in the draft since Lebron James (I did not say the best player but the best athlete). There is a lot you could do but we still need a point guard, center, and some one who can score consistently beside JJ.

truth-serum

June 20th, 2009
5:17 pm

Sautee

June 20th, 2009
4:32 pm

Lopez playing on a team that doesnt make the playoffs, dominates Horford in head to head matchup and his sorry team takes 2 out of three from the Hawks and you say Where is the up grade. If you consistantly beat me you must be better. He Dogged Horford!

Sautee

June 20th, 2009
5:22 pm

Truth serum,

Here’s just a sample of what you have called me over the past few days:

retarded, ignorant, foolish, clueless, in need of therapy, loser, etc., etc.

All because I had the GALL to challenge your opinion. Your self esteem must be TINY for you to be so bothered by someone disagreeing with you, that you stoop to belittling language. Or maybe you just need a bigger vocabulary.

Any way, you seem to be an obviously unhappy soul who has to lash out at those who think differently. There but for the grace of God go I.

Have a nice whatever.

truth-serum

June 20th, 2009
5:24 pm

Jay

June 19th, 2009
9:26 pm

“For the past 3 years, it seemed as if Pachulia could do nothing right-only a playoff confrontation with Kevin Garnett kept the fans from completely turning on him. Forcing Pachulia, a finesse player, to become a banger and play a style that was not conducive to what he does best caused his entire game to suffer”

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH HAHAHAH HAHAH!!!!!

HAHASHAHAHHHAHAHAH!!!!YEAH RIGHT…THAT WOODY FAULT THAT ZAZA TURNED TO KONCAK. HE WAS ALWAY SORRY. ANOTHER BURST. PACHULIA A FINESSE PLAYER HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

STOP IT MAN!! NOW THATS FUNNY!!!

truth-serum

June 20th, 2009
5:25 pm

Sautee

June 20th, 2009
5:22 pm

JUST GO!

truth-serum

June 20th, 2009
5:32 pm

Sautee

June 20th, 2009
5:22 pm
Truth serum,

Here’s just a sample of what you have called me over the past few days:

retarded, ignorant, foolish, clueless, in need of therapy, loser, etc., etc.

WHERE HAVE I LIED?

Sund & Bradley Seperated @ Birth (NOT A COMPLIMENT) LOL

June 20th, 2009
5:36 pm

GEESH!! BRADLEY WHY ALL THE ACIE LAW HATE? YOUR DISDAIN FOR LAW IS DISTRUBING AND A BIT OUR OF HAND! DID HE TAKE UR PROM DATE? DID HE BEAT YOU IN A GAME OF 1 ON 1? YOU HATE ACIE LAW AND WE ARE JUST WAITING FOR YOU TO ADMIT IT. IVE NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER ONCE READ OF ANYTHING POSITIVE ON ACIE LAW THAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN. I THINK YOU NEED TO LET HIM KNOW HOW YOU FEEL IN PERSON INSTEAD OF ALWAYS BASHING HIM ON AJC!! (DOUBT YOU’D HAVE THE COURAGE)……..RUFUS1, DAN, DARRELL STARKS I TOTALLY AGREE!!!

TYGER REPLACE HAWKS WITH WOODSON AND MARK BRADLEY IS ABOUT AS SMART AS A ROCK LOL AND I GUESS THAT MAKES US JUST AS DUMB BC WE SIT AND DEBATE WITH HIM. HE IS ONLY ACCURATE 1% OF THE TIME AND THATS SPELLING HIS NAME RIGHT ON HIS OWN POST..

STARTERS: ACIE LAW,JOHNSON,WILLIAMS,SMITH,HORFORD

FIRST ROUND PICK DEJUAN BLAIR

Sund & Bradley Seperated @ Birth (NOT A COMPLIMENT) LOL

June 20th, 2009
5:37 pm

truth-serum

June 20th, 2009
5:46 pm

Sautee

June 20th, 2009
5:22 pm

OK YOU WIN.
I HAVE BEEN HARD ON YOU AND CRITICAL. I SAW THAT YOU IGNORE THE FACTS I PRESENTED AND IN MANY CASES YOU WERE ABRITRARY JUST FOR THE SAKE OF BEING ARBRITRAY. YOU TWISTED MY STATEMENTS AND MISQUOTED ME.I FELT YOU HAD A PRECONCEIVE VIEW, A UNFAIR DISLIKE OF WOODSON AND WAS PESTY. I ALSO FELT YOU ENJOYED BEING IGNORANT TOWARDS ME.

I DID NOT HAVE TO BE HARSH IN RESPONSE.

YOU ARE PROBABLY A NICE PERSON.

IF IVE HURT YOU OR OFFENDED YOU I APOLOGIZE.

Ken Strickland

June 20th, 2009
7:13 pm

SAUTEE-how irrational and out of touch would you consider a person that says to you, “A GOOD CENTER(a good one not a great one)WOULD BE CAPABLE OF BRINGING 14-16 POINTS PER NIGHT WITH 12-14 BEBOUNDS AND 2-3 BLOCKED SHOTS, LIKE SAY A MUTUMBO”. Then you have this clown saying to me, “YES KEN, I AM SAYING THE CENTER POSITION IS NOT ALL ABOUT REBOUNDS, BUT POSITION CONTROL”.

Tell me, how can a center average 9.3 rebounds and 1.42 blocks without having position control? The majority of the starting centers in the NBA are bigger and/or taller than AHorford, yet only a select few can match his overall production(scoring, rebounding, shotblocking, steals and assists).

This clown TRUTH SERUM is bouncing around the facts, and his own BS, like an out of control ping pong ball.

Jay

June 20th, 2009
8:20 pm

I’m not hating on Woodson but I’m not loving on him either. I’m calling it like it is. Woodson’s won-lost record has improved every year since he became the head coach and for that he needs to be commended. He has also improved as a head coach. With that said, he is not in the top ten of coaches in the league. His offensive system is designed for guards to take (and hopefully make) the majority of shots so a Center in Woodson’s system is not going to average 20 per game. Yes, he professes to be a defensively-oriented coach but gives his best perimeter defender (Mario West) less than one minute per game of playing time. Oh, and if it isn’t Coach Woodson’s fault that Zaza Pachulia plays worse not than he did in his first year in Atlanta, then you also don’t believe it was Coach Woodson’s fault that Boris Diaw played terribly in Atlanta only to blossom in Phoenix and continue his fine play in Charlotte. If it’s not Coach Woodson’s fault, then who’s fault is it? Or you unwilling to believe that the confidence a Coach shows in a player–especially a young player–can have a dramatic impact upon his performance?

I’m not putting words into your mouth. I’m trying to follow your logic but you make it difficult. Here’s what I mean, you give the list for the Eastern Conference playoff leaders in blocked shots on which Horford is 19th as proof that he is not a center but you call it this year’s top ten list in blocked shots. Yet, no Western Conference player is on the list; not Camby, not Nene, not Yao Ming and Dwyane Wade is ahead of Josh Smith on that list.

Let’s just cut to the chase: you maintain that Al Horford is not a Center–OK, fine–that’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. I maintain that he plays the center position when he’s on the floor with Smith and he plays the power forward position when he’s on the floor with Pachulia. He’s a tough, versatile and unselfish basketball player who gives his all every game. His offensive game has room for improvement and I believe he will put in the time and work to improve his game.

Now, you say that the center position is the weakest link of the Hawks’ starting five and there are plenty of options out there. I say the lack of a veteran bench followed by the lack of a PG are bigger problems than Al Horford at the Center position. I asked you before but you refused to answer, so I’ll ask you again: who should the Hawks get to play Center? what or who will it take to get that person and what makes you think that team will trade that person to the Hawks?

Cory–I think Sam Mitchell would make a fine head coach for a team with young talent that needs to be developed. He did a fine job with a young team in Toronto and was the fall guy when the GM traded their starting PG for a C/PF with chronically bad knees.

niremetal

June 20th, 2009
9:43 pm

Sautee/Jay/Ken,

No need to press on with truth-serum – no point in trying to teach pigs to sing.

niremetal

June 20th, 2009
9:49 pm

Jay,

That being said, I definitely don’t agree that Zaza is naturally or best-suited as a “finesse” player. He was also the exception to the rule when it came to Euro big men – he has a thick body and loves to bang. He might have an ok stroke on his jumper, but the best role for him is to be a Jeff Foster type who plays physical, crashes the boards, and plays tough D. I bash Woody for a lot, but Zaza has found his niche as a rough-and-ready, high-energy backup center. I don’t know why you think Pachulia isn’t doing just fine in the role he plays now. I promise you that teams will be interested in him this summer, and it won’t be because of his jump shot.

Wabe

June 20th, 2009
10:04 pm

You guys are arguing about things that are honestly irrelevant.

You get people around Horford to play up to their abilities, and this argument of Horford not being a true center is IRRELEVANT.

As of now, nobody can identify whether Smoove is a SF or PF. He spots up beyond the 3pt line and runs fast breaks (usually resulting in a TURNOVER) as if he were a SF(Point Forward). You have literally zero production at SF. Honestly, how many teams would Mo Evans be starting on in this league. He’s a decent player, but should be coming off the bench. Of course he started in place of an injured Marvin, but even when Marvin plays, he doesn’t provide enough production to take any pressure off of JJ. Then you guys whine and cry about why JJ ballhogs and takes so much time off the shotclock…

Really, I don’t see Horford playing as an undersized center as being the issue with the Hawks. Go find a “true center” and lets see how drastically the Hawks improve, because judging on the argument a few of you are selling, we would instantly become contenders…

SF/PG. Those are the holes on this team. Upgrade at PG or SF to take some pressure off of JJ. I’ll admit the hawks do lack in size a bit, but that lack of size isn’t what’s holding this team back…there are a dozen other things I can point to before I would even consider Horford’s size being the issue…

Truth-serum

June 20th, 2009
11:08 pm

Jay

June 20th, 2009
8:20 pm

I appreciate your articulation.

I accept your remark about posting eastern conference block leaders as being somewhat misleading. I wanted to have some showing for Horford on the defensive side and rather than just say he was a defensive presence I wanted to show his numbers, so the numbers could speak for themselves. If you pull up the entire NBA he is not ranked, so I had to pull up the conference to get some account of his work. .67 block shot average is awful for a starting center whether you are willing to admit it or not. Just for the record here is the block shot for the top 20 in the NBA

PLAYER NAME, TEAM NAME GP MPG BLK PF BLKPG BLKP48M BLK/PF
1 Dwight Howard, ORL 79 35.7 231 270 2.92 3.93 .86
2 Chris Andersen, DEN 71 20.6 175 174 2.46 5.76 1.01
3 Marcus Camby , LAC 62 31.1 132 129 2.13 3.29 1.02
4 Ronny Turiaf , GSW 79 21.5 168 243 2.13 4.76 .69
5 Jermaine O’Neal , MIA-TOR 68 29.8 136 211 2.0 3.22 .64
6 Kendrick Perkins , BOS 76 29.6 150 253 1.97 3.2 .59
7 Ming Yao , HOU 77 33.6 150 257 1.95 2.78 .58
8 Tyrus Thomas , CHI 79 27.5 151 220 1.91 3.33 .69
9 * Brook Lopez , NJN 82 30.5 151 257 1.84 2.9 .59
10 Samuel Dalembert , PHI 82 24.8 146 248 1.78 3.44 .59
11 Tim Duncan , SAS 75 33.7 126 173 1.68 2.4 .73
12 Emeka Okafor , CHA 82 32.8 136 247 1.66 2.43 .55
13 Josh Smith , ATL 69 35.1 111 184 1.61 2.2 .6
14 Shaquille O’Neal , PHX 75 30.0 108 253 1.44 2.3 .43
15 Joakim Noah , CHI 80 24.2 110 238 1.38 2.72 .46
16 Dwyane Wade , MIA 79 38.6 106 178 1.34 1.67 .6
17 Nene Hilario , DEN 77 32.6 101 278 1.31 1.93 .36
18 Lamar Odom , LAL 78 29.7 98 235 1.26 2.03 .42
19 Andrea Bargnani , TOR 78 31.5 97 242 1.24 1.9 .4
20 Spencer Hawes , SAC 77 29.3 93 249 1.21 1.98 .37

Number 3 and number 9 where both on my radar. No Hawk center made the list. Josh did but he’s a power forward and his blocks come from breaks to the basket not from manning the post like a center, with his back to the basket.
Every coach who faces the Hawks sees the Hawks as weak in the middle. Charles Barkley said it, the TNT crew discussed it, ESPN voiced it the only ones in denial about it is….the Woody haters. Horford and ZAZA are .67 and .27 for Block shots this year. It’s hard to sugar coat that.
What 200lb gorilla in the room?
Yet two of the guys on my list are in the top ten in the NBA in block shot and the third I have given as a result of my scouting.
Any center on this list would definitely upgrade us in the post.
You are right. I have not given you the center we should get. You send me your list of what you deem available or what you could get by packaging a deal. Tell me what we are authorized to spend and or trade and who is on the market behind the scenes and I’ll tell you who we should get….

Meanwhile like I’ve already said, I like Lopez, Camby and for the future I like Grey who would come at a cheap price.
Camby the # 3blks shot leader and Lopez is # 9 either would bring a definite impacts to the Hawks. We would lose nothing in offense and some ways gain. We would also stop teams from running down our throats. Lopez owns Horford.
By the way I also liked Jermaine O Neal but we sat on our hands when it was clear he was available and wanted to play for a playoff team. Miami made the move.
The seven dwarfs, ACIE, ZAZA, SOLOMAN, MARIO WEST, OTHELLO HUNTER, THOMAS GARDNER AND SPEEDY CLAXTON, and WOULD BE STARTERS ON 0…ZERO…NILL…NONE…NADA NBA TEAMS. THAT’S SEVEN SCRUBBS THAT YOU EXPECT WOODY TO OWN THE NBA WITH. GET REAL. ALMOST ALL OF THEM WOULD GET NO SIGNIFICANT TIME ON ANY OTHER TEAM IN THE NBA. They are draft or sign burst. You can’t make ZaZa Tim Duncan. He went from starter to turnover factory. Acie has had enough time in practice and games to develop. The one he’s got to blame is the man in the mirror. He’s a lot like Rumiel Robinson. You either step up or sit down. Don’t whine like a mother whose son doesn’t make the grade and so she blames the coach. The coach did not shoot that brick or turn the ball over or give up the dunk. Your son did.

You mentioned a player you felt did not get better under Woody. And? Big deal. This aint the CBA or a developmental league. I can count even more that did not make it here and left or was traded and they did not make it there either! Richard Hamilton Was a vagabond for a long time till he and underline the word HE, took his game to another level Flip has played for 5 or 6 teams and didn’t stick. But he and underline the word HE has taken his game to the next level. 95 % of the guys that leave here that are traded or cut are soon out of the NBA. IT’S CALLED BASKETBALL! For every Boris Diaw there’s a Rumiel Robinson or Stacy Augmon or Jon Koncak.

Woodson has done a great job. I’m not going to dismiss the accolades the he has earned being number 9 on the coach of the year poll. It’s an honor and enough sports writers felt that he was doing a bang up job, as did TNT and ESPN. I do to. He’s done a great job and I’m proud of him. You can spew you sentiments as long as you like. You are entitled to your opinion. The writers disagree with you, on this one so do I.

You can argue or hate, refute or diminish whatever you want to call it, all you like. I agree with the writers.

MJ3

June 21st, 2009
12:17 am

Woodson has done a great job. I’m not going to dismiss the accolades the he has earned being number 9 on the coach of the year poll.

You think that finishing 9th out of 22 eligible coaches (8 were basically not considered eligible bc they were hired midyear)? And where a bunch of others were either coaches of godawful teams (you think the Kings’ head coach was considered?) or coaches of teams that have done so well so consistently that they weren’t considered (like Phil and Doc)?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. God what a moron. How can u people waste time arguing with this fool?

Jay

June 21st, 2009
12:26 am

truth-serum,
So with one more blocked shot per game, Horford would go from awful to #12 in the league–would he still be awful? Lopez and Camby are unavailable and Gray is a project who would be less help right now than what the Hawks have. I don’t know whether you meant to do this or not but you made my argument for me when you referred to the “seven dwarfs” on the bench. The Hawks need an upgrade on the bench–that should be their top priority.

Enough of playing point-counterpoint. Suffice it to say that we each have our opinions about which we have strong convictions.

niremetal
I do think Zaza gives the rebounding, banging and toughness to the Hawks that Coach Woodson wants. In fact, there have been some games that the Hawks wouldn’t have won were it not for Zaza’s work. And yes, some team(s) will offer Zaza a lot of money because of his size, toughness and rebounding prowess, maybe even more money than the Hawks are willing to pay. I’m sorry if it seemed that I’m not a fan of Zaza’s work–I am. I’m simply saying that from an offensive standpoint, he has been reduced to the occasional tip-in or put back attempt after an offensive rebound.

But when he first came to the Hawks, Zaza had an offensive game that he tried to use. No, he didn’t shoot from distance but it was not a banging or bruising style of game, either. Unfortunately, whenever he’d commit a traveling or 3 second-violation, he’d get pulled from the game instead of being given the latitude to work his way through it. Now, you hardly ever see Zaza make any type of offensive move with the ball. It would be a shame if Zaza went to another team and insult would be added to injury if that team helped him become a true offensive scoring presence on a nightly basis.

Ken Strickland

June 21st, 2009
12:55 am

NIREMETAL-you’re absolutely right. This clown is a total waste of time and energy. Did you see the last post he directed at me? The truth hurts, and I definitely hit him where it hurts, with the truth. It’s also evident that he immediately retreats to assigning homosexual labels and inuendos whenever he feels threatened and/or exposed.

Zaza is a strange case. He has a very effective 12-15ft jumper, but instead of using it consistently, he prefers to post up and/or drive to the basket, which leads to many of his turnovers. He reminds me of Charles Oakley, who was a dominant rebounder that had trouble finishing around the basket. He did the opposite of Zaza and started shooting jumpers almost exclusively. Both players were unable to get any lift with the ball in their hands trying to score under the basket, but they had no problem getting enough lift going after a rebound. As a result of the problem, Oakley started shooting jumpers almost exclusively, which got him traded from the Bulls and ultimately became his downfall.

The main thing the Hawks need to become an elite team is a change in OFF philosophy and style of play. We need an OFF philosophy, and a penetrating PG, that allows us to attack and break down the DEF instead of our current philosophy of shooting over it. We need a more flexible OFF system that takes maximum advantage of the superior speed, quickness, athleticism and versatility of our frontline. We should be using our attributes to carve teams up. We don’t have enough shooters to be an elite team by consitently shooting 3pointers, which we do too much of. We’re also not tall enough or physical enough to become an elite team by being an effective inside scoring team. However, if we use our 3pt shooting ability and overall OFF balance, along with our superior athleticism, speed, quickness and versatility, we can become an elite team.

Truth-serum

June 21st, 2009
9:04 am

Jay

June 21st, 2009
12:26 am

If Horford had the skills to average an additional block per game he would surely be more of an impact player. Of course if “ifs” and “ands” were pots and pans the world would be a kitchen. I can’t see him or anybody adding 82 blocks to their game (this number would have to be even higher to crack the top ten.) Not without steroids. Blocks are more instinctive than learned. That’s just not who Horford is. He is better suited as a rebounding power forward, which he is.
I have no problem agreeing with you that our bench is in need of an upgrade. It is definitely a very high priority. On this our point is made.
The Hawks are on the doorstep of being able to compete beyond the second round. It’s imperative that they develop a defensive control of the post. Right now the numbers clearly indicate we have an open door policy. Come right in dunk as you will. Even if we upgrade our bench we won’t get far because we are incapable of defending the rack. Therefore, strengthening our post game is a higher priority.
If we strengthen our post game and bench, I believe these Hawks can, and will compete for a title. The will, attitude and tenacity are there. If they don’t, it will say more about ownership than the team.
I was asked before why I did not think that the Lakers or San Antonio would move Bynum or Duncan and my reply was,” those organizations or committed to winning”. You get on the thresh hole, as the Hawks are, you both invest and upgrade or you ride it out.
I agree with you that we have exhausted our points. I can take away that we are both passionate and learned fans of the game. I bet you’ve also played at a high level. I’ve enjoyed talking with you.

Ken Strickland
June 21st, 2009
12:55 am
If you won’t post statements referring to my “semen” I won’t have cause to question your orientation. I can’t understand why you say I have truth semen but you may review you post and you will find it here:
Ken Strickland
June 18th, 2009
3:25 pm
Let me further add that your conversation has been one of highly charged emotions without intellectual substance or insightful revelations. At best you are offensive. You clearly don’t understand basketball, and you are led by your emotions. You are hateful and incite others to hatred. I think it would go well for you if you would take the time to study the game. Try winning points with well researched and thought out offerings, not with vulgar attacks. You will never lift yourself up by trying to tear me down. That’s a flawed philosophy. So is your understanding of the game, flawed.

MJ3
June 21st, 2009
12:17 am

niremetal
June 20th, 2009
9:43 pm

I don’t believe we’ve met. But thanks for reading and have a nice day!

Happy fathers day guys.

Sautee

June 21st, 2009
11:05 am

The most misleading stat in the world of NBA stats is the “per 48 minutes” stat.

It’s a fantasy stat because it uses projection and not reality. Here’s what I mean:

Let’s say it’s the first game of the year and on the first defensive possession we have, Mike Bibby blocks a shot from behind, but comes down wrong and sprains his ankle. He’s played 1 minute, he’s blocked one shot, so his BSP48M is 48.0

He’s out for the next 12 games but he’s leading the league in blocked shots, right?

Now does anyone here think Bibby will block 48 shots in a game?

It’s a fantasy stat, which is why, even though I quote stats often you’ll NEVER see me use a P48 stat because in my view that would make me less credible.

Of course there ARE those who use any stat they can possibly dig up just to bolster their arguments, even if it involves using an injured player’s stats.

I think it MUCH MORE REAL to use what ACTUALLY HAPPENED in the games as a measure, than what MIGHT have happened IF that player had played all 48 minutes at the exact same proficiency as the minutes they DID play.

Even if reality is sometimes inconvenient.

Here’s some reality: Horford (9.3 / gm) was 8th in the league in rebounding among the players at the position he “plays”, Center.

He outrebounded Shaq, B. Lopez, Joel Pryzbilla, Kendrick Perkins and several other centers who “look more like a center” than he does. This is based on what actually happened on the court.

For blocked shots, Horford was 16th in the league at his position. 1.42 blocks / gm. 0.02 less than Shaq and more than Nene, Tyson Chandler, Joakim Noah,and Eric Dampier (all of whom are touted as a “defensive presence”).

Geez, for playing out of position, he’s doing OK, eh?

Truth-serum

June 21st, 2009
2:11 pm

Sautee

June 21st, 2009
11:05 am

No. Your stats are wrong. Perhaps intentionally so. His average for block shots this year was .67 per game. Thats what he brought to the defensive table.That was 16th in his conference. His average was too low to make the top 50 for the NBA. Here is the BLOCK PER GAME as post on NBA.com, I dont want to make up my own stats, you can if you like. Just keeping it real.

Help me find Horford’s name.

Please note who is at # 3 and who’s @ # 9

GP MPG BLK PF BLKPG

1 Dwight Howard , ORL
79 35.7 231 270 2.92
2 Chris Andersen , DEN
71 20.6 175 174 2.46
3 Marcus Camby , LAC
62 31.1 132 129 2.13
4 Ronny Turiaf , GSW
79 21.5 168 243 2.13
5 Jermaine O’Neal , MIA-TOR
68 29.8 136 211 2.0
6 Kendrick Perkins , BOS
76 29.6 150 253 1.97
7 Ming Yao , HOU
77 33.6 150 257 1.95
8 Tyrus Thomas , CHI
79 27.5 151 220 1.91
9 * Brook Lopez , NJN
82 30.5 151 257 1.84
10 Samuel Dalembert , PHI
82 24.8 146 248 1.78
11 Tim Duncan , SAS
75 33.7 126 173 1.68
12 Emeka Okafor , CHA
82 32.8 136 247 1.66
13 Josh Smith , ATL
69 35.1 111 184 1.61
14 Shaquille O’Neal , PHX
75 30.0 108 253 1.44
15 Joakim Noah , CHI
80 24.2 110 238 1.38
16 Dwyane Wade , MIA
79 38.6 106 178 1.34
17 Nene Hilario , DEN
77 32.6 101 278 1.31
18 Lamar Odom , LAL
78 29.7 98 235 1.26
19 Andrea Bargnani , TOR
78 31.5 97 242 1.24
20 Spencer Hawes , SAC
77 29.3 93 249 1.21
21 Erick Dampier , DAL
80 23.0 95 191 1.19
22 Joel Przybilla , POR
82 23.8 97 215 1.18
23 LeBron James , CLE
81 37.7 93 139 1.15
24 * Marc Gasol , MEM
82 30.7 90 265 1.1
25 * Roy Hibbert , IND
70 14.4 76 215 1.09
26 Andray Blatche , WAS
71 24.0 74 211 1.04
27 Chris Bosh , TOR
77 38.0 77 189 1.0
27 Pau Gasol , LAL
81 37.0 81 172 1.0
27 * JaVale McGee , WAS
75 15.2 75 155 1.0
30 Paul Millsap , UTA
76 30.1 73 288 .96
31 LaMarcus Aldridge , POR
81 37.1 77 207 .95
32 Gerald Wallace , CHA
71 37.6 67 210 .94
33 Dominic McGuire , WAS
79 26.2 74 153 .94
34 Wilson Chandler , NYK
82 33.4 75 250 .92
35 David West , NOH
76 39.2 68 207 .9
36 Al Thornton , LAC
71 37.4 62 227 .87
37 * Louis Amundson , PHX
76 13.7 65 154 .86
38 Anderson Varejao , CLE
81 28.5 66 239 .82
39 Jason Maxiell , DET
78 18.0 63 157 .81
40 Dirk Nowitzki , DAL
81 37.7 63 176 .78
41 Jamario Moon , MIA-TOR
80 25.9 60 133 .75
42 DeSagana Diop , CHA-DAL
75 13.8 56 128 .75
42 Rudy Gay , MEM
79 37.3 59 221 .75
44 Rasual Butler , NOH
82 31.9 61 159 .74
45 Mehmet Okur , UTA
72 33.5 53 219 .74
46 Kurt Thomas , SAS
79 17.8 58 170 .73
47 * Jason Thompson , SAC
82 28.1 59 314 .72
48 Charlie Villanueva , MIL
78 26.9 56 254 .72
49 Kevin Durant , OKC
74 39.0 53 134 .72
50 * Marreese Speights , PHI
79 16.0 56 181 .71

Truth-serum

June 21st, 2009
2:22 pm

Here is the next 50, please note # 85 and please help me find Horford.
MPG BLK PF BLKPG

51 Nick Collison , OKC
71 25.8 50 239 .7
51 Travis Outlaw , POR
81 27.7 57 168 .7
53 * Darrell Arthur , MEM
76 19.3 52 206 .68
54 Brandon Bass , DAL
81 19.4 55 140 .68
55 Kelenna Azubuike , GSW
74 32.1 50 183 .68
56 Jeff Foster , IND
74 24.7 49 229 .66
57 Grant Hill , PHX
82 29.8 54 182 .66
58 Boris Diaw , CHA-PHX
81 34.0 53 202 .65
59 Rashard Lewis , ORL
79 36.2 51 194 .65
60 Hilton Armstrong , NOH
70 15.6 45 181 .64
61 Tayshaun Prince , DET
82 37.3 51 104 .62
62 * Kevin Love , MIN
81 25.3 50 205 .62
63 * Luc Mbah a Moute , MIL
82 25.8 45 204 .55
64 Rasho Nesterovic , IND
70 17.3 38 171 .54
64 Leon Powe , BOS
70 17.5 38 192 .54
66 Brad Miller , CHI-SAC
70 30.0 36 223 .51
67 * Nicolas Batum , POR
79 18.4 40 139 .51
68 * Brandon Rush , IND
75 24.0 37 128 .49
69 Jason Kidd , DAL
81 35.6 39 168 .48
70 Hakim Warrick , MEM
82 24.8 39 170 .48
71 Vince Carter , NJN
80 36.8 38 234 .48
72 Troy Murphy , IND
73 34.0 34 226 .47
73 * Michael Beasley , MIA
81 24.8 37 184 .46
74 Kobe Bryant , LAL
82 36.1 37 189 .45
75 * Eric Gordon , LAC
78 34.3 35 172 .45
76 Andre Iguodala , PHI
82 39.9 36 152 .44
77 Andres Nocioni , SAC-CHI
76 26.2 33 261 .43
78 Mike Miller , MIN
73 32.3 31 139 .42
79 Jeff Green , OKC
78 36.8 33 202 .42
80 Jason Richardson , PHX-CHA
72 33.5 28 146 .39
81 Kyle Korver , UTA
78 24.0 30 170 .38
82 Randy Foye , MIN
70 35.6 26 201 .37
83 Ronnie Brewer , UTA
81 32.2 30 128 .37
84 Raymond Felton , CHA
82 37.6 30 191 .37
85 Matt Barnes , PHX
77 27.0 26 209 .34
85 Zaza Pachulia , ATL
77 19.1 26 208 .34
87 Udonis Haslem , MIA
75 34.1 25 204 .33
87 Paul Pierce , BOS
81 37.5 27 215 .33
89 Tony Battie , ORL
77 15.6 25 112 .32
90 Matt Bonner , SAS
81 23.8 26 190 .32
91 Antawn Jamison , WAS
81 38.2 25 218 .31
92 Thaddeus Young , PHI
75 34.4 23 165 .31
93 John Salmons , CHI-SAC
79 37.5 24 182 .3
94 Al Harrington , NYK-GSW
73 34.9 22 227 .3
95 Trevor Ariza , LAL
82 24.4 24 166 .29
96 Brandon Roy , POR
78 37.2 22 127 .28
97 James Posey , NOH
75 28.5 21 216 .28
98 * George Hill , SAS
77 16.5 21 150 .27
99 David Lee , NYK
81 34.9 22 260 .27
100 Mikki Moore , BOS-SAC
70 17.2 19 208

Sautee

June 21st, 2009
4:17 pm

Truth serum,

No, my stats ARE correct. I’m sorry for whatever glitch is making him not show up on that chart, and I KNOW there’s a glitch because when you set the filters to show “sophomores” all the second year players EXCEPT Horford seem to be listed. And we all know that he IS a second year player.

but regardless of THAT, if you will humor me, you can go to:

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/al_horford/career_stats.html

And click on “career stats and totals”.

Now look at his block shot totals for the year 08-09 and you’ll see that he blocked 95 shots in 67 games. That’s 1.42 / gm.

Please humor me and take a look, and tell me what you find.

And do NOT imply that I would “intentionally” give out bogus figures. I care more about my own impeccability than I do winning an argument. I would NEVER intentionally give wrong figures and it’s insulting for you to imply that I might.

Look man, you watched the Hawks this year. Are you REALLY saying that you think Horford is lower than your chart goes? The bottom figure listed is David Lee with .27 per game. That means if Horford were LOWER than that he’d only have block about 1 shot every 4 games. Now, I KNOW if you were watching, the games that WHATEVER you thought of Horford that you’d KNOW that was wrong. Which, of course it is.

So, humor me, if you will and use that link and tell me what you find.

Sautee

June 21st, 2009
4:28 pm

Truth serum,

I think I’ve found the problem with the nba.com/stats site. You need to go to box 4 on the front page (Filter Options) and click on ALL instead of Qualified. I don’t know WHY, but on my computer, that made Horford’s stats show up.

So if that’s easier than going to the link I gave, please do so.

Sautee

June 21st, 2009
4:49 pm

Truth serum,

The .67 figure you listed was for the playoffs when he was playing with a bum ankle. If the .67 WAS for the season, wouldn’t he have been listed on the chart you posted? If that were the case, than he should have been listed at # 55 between Jeff Foster .66 and Azubuike at .68. As you can plainly see, he was NOT on that chart at the rate you gave for him. I think you inadvertently (see I’d NEVER imply that YOU made up a statistic) looked at the playoff chart when you checked.

And at three different sites I checked, when you include ALL players instead of Qualified, his true stats show up. There must be a glitch at his database that put him in the “unqualified” grouping.

Jay

June 21st, 2009
5:06 pm

NBA.com sorts all statistical categories in two ways: all and qualified. In order to be a qualifier in the blocked shot category, a player must play in at least 70 games or block at least 100 shots.

In 2008-2009, Al Horford played in 67 games and blocked 95 shots. He averaged 1.42 blocks per game and ranked #23 among all NBA players in blocked shots. Had he blocked the additional 5 shots to qualify, he would have ranked #9 among all NBA qualifiers in blocked shots.

Camby, at 2.13 blocks per game was #2 among qualifiers and #3 overall. Lopez, at 1.84 blocks per game was #6 among qualifiers and #7 overall.

In 2008-2009, Horford had a higher points per game, assists per game average and assists to turnover ration per game than Camby or Lopez. Camby had more rebounds per game and double-doubles than Horford or Lopez. Lopez had a higher shooting percentage but also a higher turnovers per game average than Horford or Camby. Camby and Horford had the same steals per game average and they had a higher average than Lopez.

Camby-6′11″ 235 lbs. 34 years old, Salary: $10 million/year 2 years left under contract.
Horford-6′10″ 245 lbs. 23 years old, Salary: $4.2 million/year, 3 years left under contract.
Lopez-7′0″ 260 lbs. 23 years old, Salary: 2M/year, 4 years left under contract.

Aside from Camby’s age and salary, not much separates the three guys; statistically speaking.

Oh, and one quick note, in 2008-2009, Zaza Pachulia had a better (lower) turnover per game average than Lopez, Horford or Camby.

niremetal

June 21st, 2009
5:08 pm

You have to play in at least 85% of your team’s games to be a qualified player (ie one who is eligible to officially “lead the league” in statistical categories). That generally means that if you miss more than 12 games, you’re not qualified. Horford missed 15.

That being said, it goes back to the old adage that there are three types of lies in the world: lies, damned lies, and statistics. I know you’re not arguing that stats are the end-all, Sautee…I just feel the need to try and cut off this argument for a reason other than the fact that “truth-serum” needs a dose of truth himself. Basketball statistics measure the things that are easy to observe, not what actually matters. A block doesn’t mean much if the other team retains possession and scores. On the other hand, if you play stifling defense and your opponent misses his shot (without any block or deflection), there’s no statistic that covers that. There’s also no stat to cover a good screen, a deflected pass that someone else catches, or disrupting your opponent’s dribble without stealing it. There’s no stat for a post defender who doesn’t bite on a head fake or who fights for position and forces his defender further from the basket (the latter of which Horford is already GREAT at).

Shane Battier puts up miserable defensive stats. But does anyone here want to argue that he’s a subpar perimeter defender? Same with Bruce Bowen in his prime. Same with Karl Malone (he was probably the best defensive PF of his era, but nobody recognized that until late in his career because he got so few blocks).

So getting blocks is good. But it’s even the most important thing a post defender does, much less the only thing.

Jay

June 21st, 2009
5:13 pm

Sorry about the typos–that paragraph should read: Horford had a higher points per game average, assists per game average and better turnovers to assists ratio than Camby or Lopez. Camby had a higher rebounds per game average and more double-doubles than Horford or Lopez. Lopez had a higher shooting percentage and a higher turnovers per game average (not good) than Camby or Horford. Camby and Horford had the same steals per game average, higher than that of Lopez.

Sautee

June 21st, 2009
5:15 pm

Jay,

Thanks for clearing that up. Good cogent analysis.

Now, whether truth serum will actually BELIEVE it, is another matter, lol.

Truth serum,

Your mea culpa should be the next thing we hear from you. If you can man up, that is.

Sautee

June 21st, 2009
5:22 pm

Nire,

Good points as well, and I too remember the article on Battier. He’s certainly much better than his “measurables”.

The main thrust of this entire saga was my contention that despite not “looking” like a traditional center, that Horford played his position at a level equal or above Camby, Lopez and Gray. I think Jay just did an excellent job of showing that.

And of course blocks are not the ONLY thing, but it’s a good indicator of being active on D.

truth-serum

June 21st, 2009
6:27 pm

Sautee

June 21st, 2009
4:17 pm

Oh I see you are using outdated stats from 08 and not this years stats from 09-10

truth-serum

June 21st, 2009
6:29 pm

Yeah right!!! Im out fellows, enjoy your fantasy. Just keeping it real!!!!!

truth-serum

June 21st, 2009
6:47 pm

Just a little truth serum… Jay did you say something about horford having a higher point per game aver…? bottom line is theyve meet three times headup the ultimate tell all and Lopez owns Horford…dont take my word for it… ask Horford!!

Jay

June 21st, 2009
5:13 pm
Sorry about the typos–that paragraph should read: Horford had a higher points per game average…

LOPEZ
Season Team G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
08-09 NJN 82 75 30.5 0.531 0.000 0.793 2.7 5.4 8.1 1.0 0.5 1.8 1.79 3.10 13.0

Horford

Season Team G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
08-09 ATL 67 67 33.5 0.525 0.000 0.727 2.2 7.1 9.3 2.4 0.8 1.4 1.54 2.80 11.5

truth-serum

June 21st, 2009
6:50 pm

Dont get me wrong. I like Horford, I want him to remain a Hawk. I just want him as a powerforward off the bench and a true center posting. Not a power forward masquerading as a center.

niremetal

June 21st, 2009
6:52 pm

Sautee,

I was saying all that stuff in relation to Al a year ago – I had a running debate with Clyde on precisely these points when he was arguing that Sean Williams was a better defender than Horford. The Battier article just gave me a source to cite for my arguments on stats ;) .

Sautee

June 21st, 2009
8:30 pm

Truth serum,

Really, I guess I gave you too much credit. I would NEVER have thought you would say THIS:

“Oh I see you are using outdated stats from 08 and not this years stats from 09-10″.

LOL. Let me explain it to you slowly. Stats are arranged in the year the season BEGINS, and the year the season ENDS. Therefore, the season that just ended was the 08-09 season. It BEGAN in October of 08 and ended in June of 09.

That’s the one I said to use.

The 09-10 season will not begin until this fall. You don’t have any stats for 09-10 until that season begins. LOL!

Clearer now?

And then there’s THIS that you said:

Truth-serum

June 21st, 2009
2:11 pm

Sautee

No. Your stats are wrong. Perhaps intentionally so. His average for block shots this year was .67 per game.

Will we hear an admission of you being wrong? Or will you run away again?

Sautee

June 21st, 2009
8:39 pm

Nire,

I remember the Clyde discussions well. I think I chimed in with you a few times.

And your point is well taken on the fact that MANY valuable things players do don’t ever show up in a stat. Point in fact is how often Horford deflects rebounds that he can’t secure toward a teammate. Without the deflection, it’s a lost possession. With it, another FGA for us. And if you watch him carefully, it happens fairly often.

He also gets a LOT of deflections in passing lanes, and though he may not come up with the ball and get credit for a steal, it was HIS play that led to the turnover.

Little things. That add up.

Sautee

June 21st, 2009
8:48 pm

From Sekou’s article today:

“Horford was an instant hit and is one of the league’s top centers. ”

“Based on their pro production, Horford has proved to be more valuable than any player in his draft class other than Oklahoma City’s Kevin Durant, the Rookie of the Year and likely the first member of this class to make the All-Star team. Considered the most NBA-ready player in his draft class, Horford has lived up to that billing while other members of the class have yet to make the transition from college star to NBA starter.”

“The verdict: Horford’s a keeper and franchise cornerstone “

Jay

June 21st, 2009
10:41 pm

I’m sorry–I was wrong. Horford had more rebounds per game than Lopez while Lopez had more points per game than Horford.

In the 2007 Draft, the Hawks needed a center and had the chance to draft any center other than Greg Oden, including Aaron Grey, and they chose Horford. Not Noah, not Spencer Hawes, not Jason Smith, not Marc Gasol–Horford.

If GM Sund, Coach Woodson, Mark Bradley, Sekou Smith can accept Al Horford as a Center, then shouldn’t we all?

If Bill Russell, Willis Reed, Dave Cowens, Wes Unseld, Ben Wallace could be centers on championship winning teams and none of them were taller than 6′10″, why can’t Horford?

Sautee–you’re welcome. And niremetal is right when he talks about a lot of important plays not showing up on a stat sheet. Truth-serum, let’s face it–Horford and Smith are the Center and Power Forward, respectively, for the Hawks and will be the Center and Power Forward for the Hawks for many years to come. You may not like it but that’s the reality.

Let’s talk about something else–anything else. Please?

[...] that I wrote a little something last week about the need to part with Williams, I’d like to applaud the sagacity of this appraisal. And while I’m applauding, [...]

Steve

June 22nd, 2009
12:18 pm

I actually like this idea Mark. Marvin will be epensive, more than he is worth at this stage. His upside is still scary though. He could turn out to be a top 10 player in this league for years under the correct coach. But that is the key here.

It’s obvious the Hawks won’t get rid of their lackluster coach, so Marvin will never truly shine. I am convinced you will have to bring in vets who already have confidence as Woodson is terrible at bringing along young players. It’s questionable as to whether or not Josh has improved at all under Woodson, and it’s obvious Marvin, Acie, and Al have not improved much at all. In fact, I fear Al may be sliding backwards already. So, if we keep Woodson, we need to move Marvin for a talented vet who is affordable and Butler would be a great fit.

Crittendon is a downgrade from Acie, and probably shouldn’t even be on an NBA roster, but you can’t make this deal happen without giving Washington a young PG who still has a chance to be good (everyone has seen enough of Crittendon to know he won’t be). Besides, as the above paragraph mentioned, Acie is not going to get any better, nor ever get a lengthy trial with dopey as coach.

Adam

June 22nd, 2009
6:11 pm

terrible trade, terrible idea.. bradley you have no business speculating on what the hawks should do with this 21 year-old who is already learning how to face up to the nba’s best swingmen night after night.. especially for CARON BUTLER.. completely average 2/3 who has never turned anybody into a winner before.. no wonder you love josh smith so much..

[...] somewhere else, they’ll be OK. If Bibby stays, they’ll be better than OK. Heck, if they handle Marvin Williams properly, they just might catch and pass Boston as the third-best team in the NBA [...]

[...] all of the suggestions around here to the contrary. Respected and prolific colleague Mark Bradley has suggested many times that if any of the Hawks’ remaining building blocks was expendable it…. But as I look across the free agent landscape, I cannot co-sign that theory. Not with the free [...]

[...] all of the suggestions around here to the contrary. Respected and prolific colleague Mark Bradley has suggested many times that if any of the Hawks’ remaining building blocks was expendable it was…. But as I look across the free agent landscape, I cannot co-sign that theory. Not with the free [...]

[...] And on Wednesdays Mr. Schultz and I will be doing a Face Off, which is as it sounds: One issue, differing opinions. [...]

[...] all of the suggestions around here to the contrary. Respected and prolific colleague Mark Bradley has suggested many times that if any of the Hawks’ remaining building blocks was expendable it was…. But as I look across the free agent landscape, I cannot co-sign that theory. Not with the free [...]

[...] (Not to mention Jason Terry as the sixth man.) I must confess that I proposed a deal — a sign-and-trade with Washington that would have sent Marvin there and brought Butler here — last summer, and I submit that with Butler at small forward the Hawks wouldn’t be [...]

Knowledge Quest

June 20th, 2010
8:17 pm

And for those saying the Hawks need a center: Do you really believe adding Orlando’s backup and making Al Horford scoot over to 4 will help this team more than upgrading — and Butler is an upgrade — at small forward?

No Doubt! A small forward is not as pivotal or centralize a position as a small forward. I agree with you that That would be an upgrade at the SF but I totally disagree that the 3 is as important to the team as the 5. A center is to the team what a skeleton is to the body. You cant utilize the muscle or limb with out being attached to the skeleton.

[...] in the NBA makes him a hugely desirable commodity.) Heck, I proposed this time a year ago that the Hawks work a sign-and-trade with Washington for Butler, sending Marvin Williams to the Wizards in exchange. And if you’re asking me if [...]