Face Off: Say goodbye to Marvin, hello to Caron Butler
Read Jeff Schultz’s view: Hawks need to get the point — and it’s Rafer Alston
Marvin Williams is the least essential Hawks starter. He scores points and takes rebounds but seems to leave no imprint on games, and one of the reasons Joe Johnson gets the ball with three seconds on the shot clock — or, worse, Josh Smith gets it 25 feet from the hoop — is that Marvin, four years a pro, still won’t assert himself.
I want to see Marvin not assert himself elsewhere next season. I want the Hawks to re-sign him — he’s a restricted free agent — and ship him and Acie Law to Washington for Caron Butler and Javaris Crittenton. The Wizards are looking to cut salary, so that part would work for them, and they’re also looking to get younger. Williams turns 23 on Friday; Butler is 29. (See ajc.com photo gallery.)
Butler is a small forward with deep range and — key point — a ton of self-assurance. He wants the ball when the clock’s ticking low. He averaged 20.8 points, 6.2 rebounds and 4.3 assists last season to Marvin’s 13.9, 6.3 and 1.3.
My biggest complaint has been that too much of the Hawks’ offense begins and ends with Johnson. (”Iso-Joe,” as clever bloggers have dubbed it.) Butler would lighten that load by making plays of his own — Marvin, as we know, makes few plays — and would provide cover should Mike Bibby leave as a free agent. A team could make do with Flip Murray as its starting point guard if he has Johnson and Butler at 2 and 3.
This trade need not be a loss for the Wizards. In a city where he isn’t known mostly for not being Chris Paul, Williams still could develop into something more than a team’s fifth-best starter. (Not so long ago, he was considered the most gifted player of his draft class.) But it hasn’t panned out for him as a Hawk and, with Johnson and Smith and Al Horford ahead of him now, it won’t ever.
Butler would upgrade the Hawks at one of the two positions that could stand upgrading. The other is point guard, and that’s more problematic. Bibby, who’s an unrestricted free agent, might not want to play for half what he made last season and could well leave. (Law’s time here seems done.) Flip, whom the Hawks will surely re-sign, is best deployed as a scoring sixth man, not an orchestrator. That’s where the draft comes in.
There’s not a Paul or a Deron Williams to be had, but there are some promising guards who figure to be available at No. 19. Eric Maynor of VCU could be there. Patty Mills of St. Mary’s could be. And Ty Lawson of North Carolina, who seemed slotted to go in the lottery, has been dropping in the mock drafts. He could be there, too.
The Hawks are getting close to something good. They don’t need to be taking the long view now. Caron Butler will make $21 million over the next two seasons. That’s a reasonable price for the guy who could bring the Hawks that much closer to Orlando and Cleveland and Boston.
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333 comments Add your comment
vava74
June 18th, 2009
8:04 pm
Ariose,
Thank you for the link to Marvin’s highlight reel.
Obviously if you look only at selected footage you don’t get a clear picture BUT you can conclude by seeing this one that Marvin has the complete package, a very unique inside-outside game, since he can slash and can drain the 3, as well as play both positional defence (one on one) and poach the passing lanes.
People have to realise that Marvin should be the 2nd option in the Hawks offence and that J-Smoove should be a role player, blocking, rebounding and running the fast break to dunk which is all that is talented to do (he has developed a few moves around the basket and he should be rewarded with a few touches).
I love J-Smoove, but I can only accept him to stay if he accepts the fact that his talents are limited and mostly derived from his spectacular physical hability which should still allow him to produce 15ppg 12rbg 3bpg 3 apg.
Marvin is much more complete offensively since he can finish both strong or smooth to the rim and he can stop and pop hitting both the mid-range jumper or the 3.
He reminds me a bit of James Worthy but with legitimate 3 point range.
Sautee
June 18th, 2009
8:24 pm
Truth serum,
One more thing. You said this: “Horford is at top 10-11 point a game and thats a good night. His double doubles are 10 and 10.”
Hawks vs. CHI 11/11/08 Horford 27 pts. 17 reb.
Hawks vs. SAC 2/18/09 Horford 18 pts. 18 reb.
Hawks vs. IND 3/13/09 Horford 17 pts. 15 reb.
Hawks vs. IND 4/10/09 Horford 22 pts. 15 reb.
You were saying?
ProudTechFan
June 18th, 2009
8:28 pm
A friend and I went to a Hawks vs Wizards game this season and I leaned over to my friend during the Wizards introductions and when Caron Butler was announced I said” he is going to be a problem for us tonight” low and behold Caron hit open and contested three’s an had like 30 points middle of the fourth quarter. We won the game but had no real answer for Caron Butler. The guy is an All Star, can handle the ball, shoot the lights out, and can defend multiple positions. I like the idea but as someone said earlier, the GM of the Wizards would have to be drunk out of his mind to agree to that trade. I understand dumping some salary but he would really be giving up too much in the long run. But if Sund can make it happen, i think a move like that would at the least solitify fourth place in the east.
Ken Strickland
June 18th, 2009
9:07 pm
TRUTH SERUM-in addition to addressing the number of centers that have won NBA titles, without matching or exceeding AHorfords rebounding, scoring, assists and blocked shot totals over the last 14yrs, I want you to address this. Of the 16 centers that started for the 16 Eastern and Western conference playoff teams this yr, only 2 had centers that were able to match or exceed AHorfords 11.5PPG, 9.3RPG, 1.42BPG and 2.4APG seasonal averages, the Rocket’s YMing and the Magic’s DHoward.
Explain why you feel the teams I mentioned in my previous post would reject the opportunity to acquire AHorford, a PF struggling to play center, as you put it, who’s overall stats are better than their current centers. That should be an easy task for someone like you who claims to be so reliant on stats and facts.
RealSquawk
June 18th, 2009
10:02 pm
ProudTechFan,
I don’t want to speak for everyone else, but for me at least the problem doesn’t rest with the fact Caron wouldn’t help this team. He Would there is denying that. The problem is and even though he might no have said it is that Mr. Bradley is basically saying Marvin should and has to go for a very bogus and illegitimate unproven reason.
If Marvin was playing where Caron is he would have those same games. The fact is he is younger a better defender and cheaper. Plus trading Caron doesn’t help the team it only shortens our window for success and takes away a significant piece in building the of a legitimately long lasting competitive team. You trade away Marvin and now you have two Young guys who play the same position (very differently, but the same position) trying to lead your franchise. And to be honest Marvin could be a better player than both of them.
vava74,
I could never articulate it, but you are spot on Josh Smith is a role player. a very good one, but a role player. Marvin Williams is like a Ron Artest without the Attitude problem and he is younger with upside.
Come on Mark? please defend your point instead of just saying yes i agree to the few people who actually think this is a good idea. And I know you are going to enjoy this, but literally when i read this the other day it pretty much ruined it. It was really the only thing I could think about.
O'brien
June 18th, 2009
10:04 pm
JJ averages 18 shot attempts per game.
Bibby averages 13 shot attempts per game.
Josh gets 12.3 shot attempts per game
Marvin gets 10.2 shots per game.
Al only gets 8.8 shots per game. The key to Al Horford having better numbers (and Joosh too) is for Woody to run some plays for him, and let the team play inside out. If Woody would do that, Al could easily average 15 and 11. And he plays solid defense.
Tom Glavine
June 18th, 2009
11:20 pm
“Face Off”…??
Not very creative.
Suckers.
Jay
June 18th, 2009
11:39 pm
One of the memorable moments of the 2008-2009 season was the retirement ceremony for Alonzo Mourning. Remember him? Wasn’t he one of the best NBA Centers of all-time? The only question ever raised about Mourning, who is 6′10″ and played at 240 pounds, was where does he rank on the all-time list of great centers. Al Horford, at 6′10″ and 245 pounds, is the same height and a little heavier than Mourning and Mourning was never called an undersized Center.
Since Horford with Joakim Noah at Florida and since Noah was the taller of the two, maybe that’s why people think Horford was the PF and would make a great PF in the NBA; maybe even the second coming of Karl Malone. But Horford was the Center and Noah was the PF at Florida. Like most power forwards, Noah played on the perimeter as often as he played in the paint while, like most centers, Horford was always in the paint.
Look for Horford’s scoring from the low post to increase as he becomes more comfortable playing in the NBA. It has nothing to do with height and everything to do with gaining experience. Portland’s Greg Oden is taller and heavier than Horford yet he struggled mightily to score in the low post. Like most young players, Horford moved “too fast”, instead of moving “quickly” when making his low post moves; something he’ll correct over time. Let’s hope that as his proficiency increases so too will his opportunities.
Bottom line: Horford may not be the prototypical Center but he is able to play the Center postion in the NBA with a high level of proficiency, fits perfectly with Smith and Williams on the Hawks frontcourt and his height (or perceived lack thereof) is not a reason why the Hawks won’t win a championship.
Mark Bradley
June 18th, 2009
11:44 pm
I have two words for you, Jay: Thank you!
Ariose
June 19th, 2009
12:45 am
vava74, no problem lol.
cory
June 19th, 2009
12:50 am
truth serum,
why is it you really only have something to say about Als playoff stats. you clearly dont have an eye for skill & potential. every single starter on this team is more than capable of putting up the stats that you love so much. even if one of them are coming off the bench, they will still make this team that much stronger. i wonder just how many games you watch because if you really watched marvin, you would see just how much trouble he can be for all other teams. i guess you dont pay attention to the capability guys are showing when Woody lets them play(Acie is a prime example). how can you say hes a bust when you havent really seen him play? & its evident this team would be way better in terms of win % if woody played through the backcourt 1st. i question whether you really know what youre talking about or is it you just like to argue a bad point. which is it?
anyone heard whats going on with avery johnson
truth-serum
June 19th, 2009
1:23 am
Who would ever call Alonzo an all time great center. Surely you jest. Did Mo Dumb need vindicating and calling Zo a alltime great center the salvation? Yeah right. He was a good player, Mourning. I dont think Id call him great. I know he had liver problems and was force to retire before he could establish himself as a great player. They also list his weight at 265
I dont think you would compare his career numbers to Horford’s but here they are
Alonzo Mourning
G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
Career 838 686 31.0 0.527 0.247 0.692 2.6 5.9 8.5 1.1 0.5 2.8 2.64 3.40 17.1
Moses Malone
MP F G FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF ppg
34.0 7.1 14.3 .495 0.0 0.1 .096 6.2 8.2 .760 5.1 7.2 12.3 1.3 0.8 1.3 3.1 2.4 20.3
NBA 1329 784 33.9 7.1 14.5 .491 0.0 0.1 .100 6.4 8.3 .769 5.1 7.1 12.2 1.4 0.8 1.3 3.1 2.3 20.6
ABA 126 34.7 6.7 12.1 .552 0.0 0.0 .000 3.9 6.1 .629 5.2 7.7 12.9 1.1 0.9 1.2 3.7 3.2 17.2
Please note the 3 blocks and 17 points and 8.5 rebs. I dont think those are Horford type numbers. I would not compare Horford to Moses Malone either Zo was 265 and Moses was well much better than horford and better than Zo
Note also Moses’s 20.6 PPG in the NBA and please note his free throw and blks and btw they list him as a center/pwforward.
At the age of 19, when he was a lean and lanky 6-10 man-child, Malone had no trouble making the jump from Petersburg (Va.) High School to the Utah Stars of the ABA. Playing forward until he filled out enough to take the pounding at center, Malone was an immediate success in the ABA, averaging over 18 points and 14 rebounds as a rookie.
Here are all career totals and for you guys who rather read with your emotions ive added a chart tha compars league wide if this site will allow it.
Al Horford #15 Forward-Center Atlanta Hawks Team Home
NewsTeam ReportScores & ScheduleStatsRosterDepth ChartNotesHeight: 6-10 Weight: 245
Born: Jun 3, 1986 – Puerto Plata, Dominican Republic
College: Florida
Draft: 2007 – 1st round (3rd pick) by the Atlanta Hawks
Horford 11.5
League Average 9.5
League Leader 28.4
2007-08 ATL 81 31:23 4.1 8.3 49.9 0.0 0.1 0.0 1.9 2.6 73.1 3.1 6.6 9.7 1.5 1.7 0.7 0.9 3.3 10.1
2008-09 ATL 67 33:30 4.7 8.9 52.5 0.0 0.0 0.0 2.2 3.1 72.7 2.2 7.2 9.3 2.4 1.5 0.8 1.4 2.8 11.5
Career 148 32:17 4.4 8.5 51.1 0.0 0.0 0.0 2.1 2.8 72.9 2.7 6.9 9.5 1.9 1.6 0.8 1.2 3.1 10.8
Last updated through games completed on Jun 14, 2009
Yeah they still list him as a forward/center. Ive always said any center can give you minutes at the post .
Horford 11.5
League Average 9.5
League Leader 28.4
This is a chart on another site and it has him at about average in stats compared to the leaque leader at 28.5 and the leaque ave at 9.5 his career ave is 11.5 2 points or 1 basket better than the rest of the guys. Hes no Alonzo Mourning or Moses Malone and weighs about 20-25 pounds lighter in the saddle that a real center. Hes just average. By the time playoffs come hes so frail he probably weighs about 210-215 and may break a leg or turn an ankle or pull a groin. Hes not able to take the Hawks deep in the playoff with his playoff average being 6.9 points per game and 5 rebs per game. That wont get us far.
I hope this did not hurt your feelings guys. I wont discuss this further. I do like horford I think he is a important piece to the hawks success, But he is a powerforward and needs to replace ZaZa the human turnover, off the bench and lets get a center and let Horford come off the bench. Argue as much as you like. Hes just an average powerforward and hes not Alonzo or Moses Malone.
Both of these guys were natural center not powerforwards trying to convert or masquerade as a center.
Sautee
June 18th, 2009
8:24 pm
You searched Horfords entire pro career and found that on four occasions he had a game that resemble a true center’s stats. Congradulations. 99% of the time hes about average. If you take away those four games his stats would fall under the 9.5 leaque average that hes compared to.
I tell you what. If it bothers you guys that much. Ill just ignore the big gorilla in the room… how about that.
truth-serum
June 19th, 2009
1:24 am
Thats any powerforward can give you minutes at the center position.
Chase Thomas
June 19th, 2009
1:38 am
This isn’t as bad as the Alston move, but still shows the lack of basketball IQ this paper currently has. The Wizards are not going to trade an All Star like Caron Butler to another Eastern Conference foe. The Hawks are going to have to trade out West and I know exactly how.
The Wolves have already shown they’re willing to trade Al Jefferson which is hysterical considering he’s the best young big man in the game (yes, better player then Dwight Howard). Jefferson was dominating the West with little help before going down with injury and are willing to make a move for a PF in return. So rather then move Marvin Williams, move Smith.
A trade involving Smith and Jefferson has the potential to work and if the Hawks somehow got the sense to get a true dominating center like Jefferson they have the chance to become elite. Smith has worn out his welcome here and his lackluster playoff performance can’t go unnoticed.
Another problem is Woodson, the Hawks have to either ensure Woodson is going to be the coach for years to come or he’s gone after this year. You have to bring in players that work. Bibby works in Woodson’s system, Alston would not. Alston is not an upgrade over Bibby, and it’s funny because PG wasn’t even a problem for the Hawks this post season; it was the terrible front court.
A lineup of Bibby, Johnson, Williams, Horford, Jefferson is a lot better then just throwing in Caron Butler at the wing or adding an overrated PG in Rafer Alston.
That is what the smart GM would do, but this is the Hawks and they’ll likely keep what’s already here and draft an unneeded PG or SF.
truth-serum
June 19th, 2009
1:40 am
Florida Gators 2006-07 Team Profile
By Dennis Velasco, About.com
University of Florida Gators
Conference: Southeastern Conference (SEC)
Record: 29-5, 13-3 SEC
Head Coach: Billy Donovan
Roster:
Number-Player, Position, HT, WT, Class, Hometown
• 22-Jack Berry, G, 6-6, 215, Jr, Windermere, FL
• 2-Corey Brewer, F, 6-9, 185, Jr, Portland, TN
• 11-Taurean Green, G, 6-0, 177, Jr, Ft. Lauderdale, FL
• 15-Walter Hodge, G, 6-0, 170, So, Guaynabo, Puerto Rico
• 12-Lee Humphrey, G, 6-2, 192, Sr, Maryville, TN
• 23-Jonathan Mitchell, F, 6-7, 243, Fr, Mount Vernon, NY
• 13-Joakim Noah, F-C, 6-11, 232, Jr, New York, NY
• 3-Brandon Powell, G, 6-3, 187, Fr, Memphis, TN
• 42-Al Horford, F-C, 6-10, 245, Jr, Puerto Plata, Dominican Republic
• 32-Chris Richard, F-C, 6-9, 255, Sr, Lakeland, FL
• 34-Marreese Speights, F-C, 6-10, 250, Fr, St. Petersburg, FL
• 1-Brett Swanson, G, 6-2, 180, Sr, Pace, FL
• 25-Garrett Tyler, G-F, 6-7, 200, Jr, Palm Harbor, FL
• 21-Dan Werner, F, 6-7, 235, Fr, Middletown, NJ
FLORIDA LIST HIM AS A POWERFORD/CENTER JUST LIKE I SAID AND LIKE ALL THE SCOUTS SAID. BRADLEY. LEARN TO FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF AND YOU WONT BE WRONG AS OFTEN.
HAVE A GOOD NIGHT.
truth-serum
June 19th, 2009
1:56 am
ONE MORE THING. HORFORD AINT NO KARL MALONE EITHER. NOT EVEN CLOSE. GET REAL!
STOP THE MADNESS.
RealSquawk
June 19th, 2009
6:56 am
ChaseThomas,
I have two words for you! Thank-you!
Jay,
At first I was going to say Alozno Mourning is clearly more tenacious and athletic and shot blocking focused than Al. And he is. Al can’t make some of the blocks Alonzo did, but thats an unfair comparison. Just like implying AL could be just as effective as Alonzo at center is an unfair comparison. The world is getting bigger, stronger and more athletic out there and so yeah maybe Al can play the center, he is longer than Alonzo and I think faster, but that doesn’t mean he can play center against Dwight Howard, or Big Z, Emeka Okafor, Brooke Lopez,or Chris Bosh. And we need to get by at least two of these teams to get to finals.
zechosenjuan
June 19th, 2009
8:17 am
I don’t like Butler for Marvin. Marvin is a pretty solid player with a lot more potential and Caron I believe has already peaked.
I’m thinking that what we need is a different coach or a different approach to the game. Run some pick and rolls or motion offense.
Sautee
June 19th, 2009
9:42 am
Truth serum,
I never compared Horford to Moses OR Mourning. They are already at the end of their careers while Horford is just beginning. At the end of his career will be the time to compare him with them, not now.
I compared him to the centers YOU said we needed, TRUE CENTERS you said, like Okafor, B. Lopez or Aaron Freakin’ Gray.
I showed you (and you helped by bringing up the eff. stat) how Horford was at least as productive IF NOT MORE as your list of TRUE CENTERS.
Of COURSE you want to run away and not discuss it. You were shown to be wrong!
Be a man and admit it. Or slink away, but don’t think I’ll forget about it.
longtimefan
June 19th, 2009
9:57 am
I think that we are too easy to blame the players when we need to determine how the coaches are teaching these young players. JJ came over already established. No other young Hawk has shown signs of developing into an impact player. They mostly play on raw talent and home-crowd motivation. During the playoffs, I remember Woody yelling at Bibby for passing the ball to Josh Smith for a three pointer and Bibby stating that if the play was not designed that way he would not have passed it to him. I personally see talent not being developed. These are players with great talent but not disciplined to the game and not coached to reach their potential. We need more peices but we need a coach to develop the team.
KevinA
June 19th, 2009
10:27 am
Bibby and JJ like to play catch and shoot. This has hampered the production of Marvin, Josh and AL. We have a great young team. Bibby is the one to go. Use the two draft picks to get rid of Speedy. If we resign Flip he can play PG along with Acie, JJ, Chills. Between Speedy and Bibby we are talking 19 million. If Chills is signed we can trade Flip for a pg that can play defense and do pick and roles..
KevinA
June 19th, 2009
10:33 am
We could just dump Bibby and offer Odem the 14 million. Al could come of the bench and spell Odem and Josh. Pretty tough front court if you ask me. We could afford to let ZaZa go.
Speedy, Flip and and the draft picks should find us another pg.
truth-serum
June 19th, 2009
10:51 am
Ken Strickland
June 18th, 2009
9:07 pm
I appreciate you showing restraint and not being emotionally charged. That’s very mature of you. Quite pleasant.
If you are able to read and interpret stats, you will find a beacon of understanding in the stats I have posted. I’ll give you a quick snippet.
Horford, whom I like as a person and player (contrary to your regurgitations), has numbers that are about average for the NBA. The “Majority of the sites lists him as a powerforward. I understand that the Hawks are using him as a center. The University of Florida, the NBA draft, and most statistical sites list him as a powerforward. That’s probably because he is…Dah.
His numbers equate basically to a middle of the pack player, nothing outstanding or special. No Moses, Alonzo or Karl Malone. It’s also important to note that during the playoffs and the intensity it brings with the 7 game series and coaches isolating your weaknesses, Horford is reduced to 6.9 ppg and 5.0 rbs. The further you go the bigger the guys get. I know he almost broke his ankle trying to go to the rack against bigger competition, and was playing hurt. In the playoffs (after 82 games) everybody is playing hurt. No time to whine. The bottom line is that on an 82 game schedule, yeah, he can play against the average guy. To go deep in the playoffs this aint going to get it, especially when the game become half-court, and it always does. Then the center post is magnified. Not so during the run and gun of the regular season.
You apparently don’t understand what a center is because you keep referring to numbers whose relevance is minuet. The center post is not about rebounding. I wish you could understand and appreciate the center position better. In all sports and board games center control is the way to victory. He who controls the center controls the game. It’s fundamental to understanding sports.
Moving on.
I cut and pasted a snippet of a writer’s biography of Moses Malone. Here it is again:
At the age of 19, when he was a lean and lanky 6-10 man-child, Malone had no trouble making the jump from Petersburg (Va.) High School to the Utah Stars of the ABA. Playing forward until he filled out enough to take the pounding at center, Malone was an immediate success in the ABA, averaging over 18 points and 14 rebounds as a rookie.
This is pertinent because the pounding that takes place at the 5 is not like any other. Have you noticed how when a big man backs Horford down in the post he has a backwards curve to his body? He (as do many undersized guys) pushes out against his man at the waist while his feet are planted and slightly behind him. His shoulders also point slightly back. That’s how he tries to stop the big men from backing him down and collapsing the post. The toll that puts on your anatomy after 82 games is incredible. That why the above writer mentioned that Moses played forward until his body was able. Let me further add that if you keep Horford as a center for his Hawks career ultimately his body will breakdown like it did in the playoffs. He may develop back issues.
He is an asset, don’t get me wrong. He is athletic and persistent. He is smart too. He’s no center. The Hawks would be better served if he came off the bench and rotated with Josh, and backed up the new center, whoever that would be. That would make us a deeper and stronger team.
You asked why I think that the Lakers would not trade Bynum at 7′0″ 285 or Duncan 6′11″ 260 for Horford. My answer is that these organizations are committed to winning and understand the 5 spot and protecting it. It’s not about rebounds, in which Horford is only average during the season and by playoffs….well 5.0 is not going to get you far…neither will a pint of gas.
Horford also is not an offensive threat. 6.9 playoffs and 11.5 reg is a mild impact. He needs to develop a mid range shot. A baby hook wouldn’t hurt. You’d like to have at least the threat of your man scoring so that his man will stay home and not roll out to JJ or clog the mid range shots leaving Josh and Marv to retreat to the wings.
We can do better than that.
truth-serum
June 19th, 2009
11:08 am
Sautee
June 19th, 2009
9:42 am
Bless your heart. I hope you are having a nice morning and things go well for you today.
The post I made was in reference to another writer, what I had to say to you appears under your logon and time of post. Let me help you get on track this morning.
Sautee
June 18th, 2009
8:24 pm
You searched Horfords entire pro career and found that on four occasions he had a game that resemble a true center’s stats. Congradulations. 99% of the time hes about average. If you take away those four games his stats would fall under the 9.5 leaque average that hes compared to.
Thats what I wrote to you. You are certainly excitable. Sit down and relax for a while, maybe go get some air.
truth-serum
June 19th, 2009
11:46 am
vava74
June 18th, 2009
7:33 pm
I think Mark isnt as dumb as he seems. I think most of the garbage he offers is tongue in cheek.
cory
June 19th, 2009
12:50 am
Im a HUGE MARVIN WILLAIMS FAN. HE WILL BE A VERY VERY GOOD PLAYER. HE WILL BE AN IMPACT PLARER FOR SURE. I THINK IN 2 YEARS HELL BE BETTER THAN JJ. YOU HAVE ME WRONG. FOR ME THIS IS THE UNTOUCHABLE LIST : MARVIN,JOSH,FILP,JJ AND HORFORD.(CONTRARY TO OPINIONS I JUST WANT HORFORD BACK WHERE HE BELONG AND THE HAWKS GET THE CENTER THEY EXPECTED ZAZA THE 2 IN VERTICAL LEAP TO BE.)
IM ONLY GOING TO SAY THIS ONE MORE TIME. COACHES DONT SHOOT BRICKS, PLAYERS DO. COACHES DONT COMMIT TURNOVERS PLAYERS DO. COACHES DONT GET TOOK TO THE RACK PLAYERS DO. JUST WIN BABY! PLAY! QUIT WHINNNING GUYS.
IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR A DEVELOPMENTAL LEAGUE GO TO THE CBA!! OR A 3 ON 3 LEAGUE. THIS IS THE NBA BABY!
YOU PRACTICE ENOUGH AND GET SOME GAME TIME WHEN YOU PRACTICE WELL. PRODUCE IN THE GAME AND YOUR NUMBER GETS CALL MORE OFTEN. IF YOU DONT WELL…AS FILP MURRAY, OR HAMILTON.
YOU WHINERS SOUND LIKE THE MOTHERS WHOSE SONS ARE BENCH WARMERS AND THEY HOLD THE COACH IN CONTEMPT BECAUSE JOHNNY CANT PLAY!
DUDE!!
Sautee
June 19th, 2009
12:04 pm
Truth serum,
Or is it “running away from the truth serum”
Did you name Okafor, Camby, Lopez and Gray as examples of the kind of centers we need?
Did you, yes or no? YES YOU DID!
If you’d like I can find it and cut and paste it here, but that’s kind of boring for the rest of the blog. Kinda like when you keep regurgitating Al’s playoff stats, when EVERYBODY but you knows that they are bogus because of his injury.
Why don’t you post Al’s numbers against the Celtics last year when he WASN’T injured? Oh, would that weaken your argument, I’m sorry.
You named 4 “true centers” and I compared them to Horford and the stats show that he’s doing fine. NOT GREAT, mind you, but fine.
When you can admit that he “held his own” statistically against these “true centers” that YOU named, I’ll relax a while.
Until then….. you can expect to hear from me every time you post anything.
C’mon man, it’s not that hard, just admit that the figures were better for Horford than you expected. Or shall I say closer to a “true center” than you expected.
Remember that only 8 centers in the entire league averaged over 14 points / gm and 2 of those (Bargnani and Okur) are not true post players, but hang out on the perimeter. I think you are being unrealistic in your expectations of acquiring a center who can give, as you said 14-16 points and 12-14 rebounds.
Only Dwight Howard had rebound numbers like that. All I’m asking from you is keep it real. And see that while Al may not LOOK like the kind of center you want, his stats (excluding the time he was playing hurt) measured up to the very examples YOU gave.
truth-serum
June 19th, 2009
1:33 pm
Sautee
June 19th, 2009
12:04 pm
I thought Obama swatted you yesterday in the WHITE HOUSE.
This page is full of my views and is right here for you and everyone to see.
To have a conversation with you is to regress…but if it helps your troubled soul.
I did mention that I thought Grey is a natural center. I’ve seen him play like his size and tenacity. He understands protecting the paint. I also mentioned that he is a rookie.
I also like Lopez who doesn’t? He destroyed the Hawks when the times we played him (ask Horford). He’s got a true center physique. He mans the middle and he’s assertive. He’s a good scorer and will require the attention of doubles as he grows and is utilized. He is a young player whose game is in front of him as a center.
I don’t know much about Okafor, but what the analyst are saying is good. The reference you are making was in conjunction with all the whining guys like you make about there are no up and coming centers so we should be content to have a powerforward as our center.
You are clearly ignorant of what a center is, his role and his tools. So rather than get dragged into the quicksand of stupidity where you are, I choose to move on from your conversation. You seem intent on trying to make Horford s mediocre numbers equate to the level of play that is necessary to man the post. I tried to help you by showing you some guys his height that would be a mark to compare with…someone brought up Alonzo who was 6′10″ 265, and I added Moses Malone 6′10″ and now Ill add Darryl Dawkins… Chocolate thunder 6′11″ 265. These were very good models of what you look for in a center.
Go research his numbers and you see what he brought to the table.
The bottom line is Horford is a powerforward masquerading as a center, and his numbers are average at best.
If you see it different I’m ok with that.
No need to kill a dead horse… or is beat a horse…. Hey go research that and get back to me will you?
Havaniceday
truth-serum
June 19th, 2009
1:51 pm
Mark Bradley
June 18th, 2009
11:44 pm
I have two words for you, Jay: Thank you!
Jay
June 18th, 2009
11:39 pm
The reason Mourning was never called an undersize center is because he wasnt. He weighed 261 Not the 240 Horford weighs
Born: Feb 8, 1970
Height: 6-10 / 2,08
Weight: 261 lbs. / 118,4 kg.
College: Georgetown
Years Pro: 15
and another site
Nicknamed “Zo”, Mourning played at center and is 6 ft 10 in (2.08 m) tall, and weighs 261 lb (118 kg; 18.6 st). His tenacity on defense twice earned him NBA Defensive Player of the Year Award and perennially placed him on the NBA All-Defensive Team.
I do want to correct that he had kidney issues not liver issues.
Mitchell
June 19th, 2009
2:29 pm
Every time I watch Caron Butler, he always surprises me with his spectacular play. He’s a very intimidating player in that he always looks extremely focused and ready to kill. Marvin, on the other hand, does not have that killer’s mentality and to be honest, neither does Joe. We need another 20 point scorer (Ahem, Caron), who will not shy away from the ball and who will always be up for guarding the other team’s best offensive player. It seemed as if with Joe, if he had to guard the Lebron Jameses, and the Dwyane Wades of the world, then his offensive game would tremendously as his defense would continue to wear him out. Caron WILL always be up for the challenge of guarding the Dwyane Wade’s and etc. while putting up good offensive numbers, and allow Joe to do the same.
ABOUT THE POINT GUARD
Listen, Mike Bibby is a great shooter… however that’s all he is. The Hawks are arguably the MOST athletic team in the league as its extremely undersized front court could compete with any. In order to get the most out of our athletic ability, we need a young, talented, point guard who can not only shoot, but can also penetrate, dish, and even score by creating his own shot (all of which Bibby is not). Thus being said, I am completely for drafting JEFF TEAGUE. The kid is a monster and is extremely athletic, quick, and fast, and could get to the paint and either score by creating his own shot (34 vs. UNC) or by serving an alley to one of the bigs. He has great size and he is exactly what Atlanta needs.
Mark,
Please let me know why you do not like Teague, and prefer Maynor. We need another scorer and Teague can do that and penetrate and dish with his tremendous quickness.
Sautee
June 19th, 2009
2:39 pm
Truth serum,
Having a little trouble staying on track are we?
“The reference you are making was in conjunction with all the whining guys like you make about there are no up and coming centers so we should be content to have a powerforward as our center.”
Go ahead and show me where I said that. Show me. You can’t because I did not say that. It’s pure obfuscation on your part as you attempt to dodge the FACT that YOU brought up examples of what YOU called “true centers” and each of them was shown to be not much better than Horford, and in MOST cases, not as good.
Answer the question, please. Did you bring up Camby, Lopez, Okafor and Gray as examples of a “true center”? Yes or no?
And did you notice that Horford measured up nicely with their stats? Yes or no?
And I HAVE to laugh at your bringing Darryl Dawkins into the mix.
Career numbers: 12.0 pts. 6.1 reb. heh heh
Are you serious? This was interesting to me, since my memory of Dawkins is of a player who performed better than that. 12 and 6 and he’s an example of what we REALLY need?
6 rebounds from 6′11″ 261? REALLY?
And you said this: “You seem intent on trying to make Horford s mediocre numbers equate to the level of play that is necessary to man the post.”
No, I’m intent on showing YOU that Horford’s numbers compare VERY WELL with the “true centers” that YOU named. That’s all. And that is with Horford getting, by far, the fewest touches of the starters.
Of COURSE Horford’s numbers won’t compare with a HOFer like Moses. But neither would Lopez, Gray, Okafor or Camby, so I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make bringing Moses in.
Look to be real, I don’t see Horford as an ideal center. But as our discussion has shown, there are very few “ideal centers” out there. The question is not whether Horford can handle the position, but WHO ELSE if not him?
The examples that YOU gave were NOT an improvement over what he gives.
As I’ve clearly shown to you.
Maybe we can find some “beast” in the draft that will give us 12 and 6 and you’ll be happy since that’s what Dawkins did and he’s so high on your Center list.
Actually, that’s not fair. I know that we want the same thing, and that’s for our team to be successful. So keep thinking about it and come up with some VIABLE solutions to our “center problem”. Until then, hope that Horford improves his numbers to a degree that you can be comfy with him.
But the “solutions” you have suggested so far, have been shown to NOT be an improvement over what we already have. Or did I read that efficiency rating all wrong?
Sautee
June 19th, 2009
2:52 pm
Truth serum,
One more thing. Darryl Dawkins career block numbers: 1.4 gm
Al Horford 08-09: 1.42 blocks / gm.
Wabe
June 19th, 2009
3:55 pm
Why are people so intent on turning this team upside down and shrinking the window of opportunity that this team might have to contend for a championship…
Honestly, I would be surprised IF the wizards would ever accept your offer Bradley. But let’s say they did, at 29, how many more years does Caron have in his prime? I would consider this an upgrade, but how can you tell me that at age 29, Marvin won’t be playing as well as Caron is now. Also, this trade would make more sense if the Hawks needed that MISSING PEICE to contend for a championship – but as of now – the Hawks are in no postion to contend for anything more than a first round playoff series win. I would honestly rather keep Marvin at this point than bring in Caron.
Wabe
June 19th, 2009
3:56 pm
Remember when the Hawks traded Pau Gasol for Shareef?
Where’s Shareef now?
Didn’t Pau Gasol just win a championship?
I can see the same thing happening with Marvin and Caron if this deal were to ever happen…
jdewayneatl
June 19th, 2009
4:10 pm
Truth serum,
How can you vouch for Aaron Gray, a CENTER who averaged 3.5 ppg and 3.9 ppg in the regular season and 0.0 ppg and 0.5 ppg in the playoffs but you can’t get over prooving that Al Horford’s numbers show that he’s not a true center. True Gray is a rookie but Al posted avgs of 10.1 ppg and 9.7 rpg in the regular season and 12.6 ppg and 10.4 rpg in the playoffs as a rookie. He averaged a double double in the playoffs against the eventual NBA Champions. Not to mention HE WAS HEALTHY.
Come on man, you don’t have a valid argument. You’re trying to be right but you are wrong buddy. Horford is only coming into his 3rd year in the league. He’s 22. Be real dude.
truth-serum
June 19th, 2009
4:24 pm
The answer to your question is no. Here is the copy and paste. One is a response to what Chris War said and I agreed with about the the Rookie and the other is a copy and paste of Obriens statement that i wanted to acknowledge for its correctness and went further to show options. Okafor was never mentioned and what what level of talent they exhibit wasnt mention. By the way Lopez ate Horfords lunch when they met. Twice! Grey also did very well and although being a rookie was given signigicant minutes against Horford. Grey will be a force soon. I dont know that Camby and Horford have met.
Please learn to read what is stated and not with your emotions. Perhaps you should get some therapy.
truth-serum
June 17th, 2009
11:51 pm
chris warr
June 17th, 2009
11:22 pm
DITTO ON GREY. THE YOUNG MAN IS IMPOSING AND WILL ONLY GET BETTER AND IS A NATURAL CENTER!
June 18th, 2009
10:54 am
O’brien,
The real problem here is that BK signed too many players that play the same position!!!
I just thought Id acknowledge the truth in your statement. Thats what happens when you draft for best available athlete rather than for need. The hawks need a center, so they go after a guard or another forward.
Grey, lopez,Camby,Hasheem Thabeet, there are options if you want to put together a team.
Now get a chair and make it face the corner of the room. Sit down in it and face the wall. You clearly need some time out. Sit there to Horford becomes a center.
Jay
June 19th, 2009
4:25 pm
Truth serum,
When you listed the roster of the University of Florida basketball team, you did notice that no one on the roster was listed strictly as a Center, right? Did you watch them play? Did you notice who always defended the other team’s center? Think back, who guarded Oden in the championship game?
You found websites that reported Mourning’s weight as 260 lbs. and you reported Horford’s weight as 240lbs. Basketball-reference.com reports that Alonzo Mourning weighed 240 lbs. and Moses Malone weighed 215 lbs. when they entered the league. Like almost every NBA player, they gained weight as they matured. Mourning probably weighed 260 lbs. when he reached his prime and we know that Malone weighed more than 260 in his prime. The same site reported that Horford weighed 245 lbs. when he entered the league. Isn’t it reasonable to believe that Horford will gain weight as he matures. So when Horford gains 20 lbs., which he will by the time he reaches his prime, will he no longer be an undersized center? Don’t get upset–I’m not being a smart aleck–I’m just asking.
Of the four guys you mentioned as legitimate centers-Okafor, Camby, Gray and Lopez-only Gray made the playoffs and he got no playing time. Other “legitimate” Centers like Washington’s Brendan Haywood (7′0″, 265 lbs.), the L.A. Clippers’ Chris Kaman (7′0″, 260 lbs.), Sacramento” Spencer Hawes (7′0″ 260 lbs) and Shaquille O’Neal (7′1″, 325+lbs.) didn’t make the playoffs, either.
Effective offensive basketball has always been based on creating and exploiting mismatches. The Hawks’ offense has been predicated on using Joe Johnson and Mike Bibby in the pick-and-roll to create open shots for Bibby or a size mismatch, one-on-one situation for Johnson. Because teams will double-team Johnson to negate the mismatch, Josh Smith, considered the worst frontcourt shooter, gets a lot of shots. This offensive approach means that no Hawks’ center or small forward will be a primary offensive option, so expecting either of them to score twenty points a game is unrealistic.
Should the Hawks look to obtain another Center, especially one who has offensive skills? Certainly, because that can only help. Can Horford play power forward? Certainly–against some teams. But there are many teams (Dallas, Golden State, New York, New Jersey, Indiana, Milwaukee, Washington and Orlando to name a few) that have a power forward who offensive game is perimeter-based and that is not Horford’s defensive strong-suit.
The Hawks will be better next year because Smith, Horford and Williams will be better than they were last season but everyone knows that a lack of quality depth is the Hawks’ major shortcoming. Finding a starting point guard and getting four veterans for the bench are the Hawk priorities. Yes, one of those veterans should be a Center and it would be great if he had offensive skills (Rasho Nesterovic-a “legitimate” Center- comes to mind) but since defense wins championships, and playing effective defense calls for quickness rather than size, why are you so concerned about how tall someone is or how much they weigh.
You’re obviously a passionate fan who wants to see the Hawks win championships. However, thinking that obtaining a “legitimate” Center and moving Horford to power forward is the move that will turn the Hawks into a championship contending team is misguided and wrongheaded.
truth-serum
June 19th, 2009
4:27 pm
Sautee
June 19th, 2009
2:52 pm
the above post is the answer to your foolish questioning.
truth-serum
June 19th, 2009
4:51 pm
Jay
June 19th, 2009
4:25 pm
I respect your opinion. Fair enough. We agree on more than we disagree. Yes Moses and Zo as rookies had different weights than their mature weights. Of course the biographer I mentioned note that Moses played forward until his body matured to take the punishment of the position. I did not find any web sites that reported anything different that the playing weights of the centers. I check more than one.
Just because you have the main ingredient of a serious center on your team it’s not a lock to the championship. You need the trimmings too. But I am clear when I say you won’t win without it. Understand the difference to what I say.
I never said anything about Okafor so you are miss quoting me as is Sautee.
I agree with you about some of the limitations in Horfords game. I did not roast you because I see an element of objectivity in your analysis. There are more limitations to Horfords game than is covered here.
You are entitled to your opinion of my summary. I v e been wrong a time or two in my life. I don’t think this is one of them.
BTW Grey is a rookie. He had no trouble with Hordford, neither did Lopez.
Id like to add that having said all that. I do think Horford will have a longer career at forward and that he needs to develop an offensive cache. A midrange jumper and a post up baby hook would not hurt. Developing his left hand will be great.
Sautee
June 19th, 2009
5:02 pm
Jay,
Excellent post
Truth serum,
These are your words: “The hawks need a center, so they go after a guard or another forward.
Grey, lopez,Camby,Hasheem Thabeet, there are options if you want to put together a team.”
So this means somehow that you DIDN’T suggest Gay, Lopez, and Camby as potential centers for the Hawks?
LOL, I guess I’m missing Something!!!!
Go ahead a try to split THIS hair. And tell me why you picked Dawkins as an example, while your at it. 12 and 6 WOW!
You can try to be insulting, or demeaning, but it won’t make me go away. If you want to post on a sports blog, you’ll run the risk of coming across people who’ll insist that you stand behind your words. If that bothers you, maybe you shouldn’t be posting things you can’t back up.
I know, next you’ll tell me I’m “taking it out of context”, right?
You either brought up their names or you didn’t. And you did.
truth-serum
June 19th, 2009
5:05 pm
Sautee
June 19th, 2009
2:52 pm
You are sooooo misguided. Dont come out of the corner because Horford is not a center yet. Stay.
I know this is hard for you and Ken. Being a center is not about rebounds. I’ve said that so much and you do receive it. Your powerforward often times is the team rebounder ala Dennis Rodman.
Let me suggest you get a book on the basics and then work your
Way up….intermediate…etcetera.
I have concluded by observing you that you actually enjoy being ignorant.
One day you’ll know what a center is.
Mark Bradley
June 19th, 2009
5:27 pm
Next week’s Face Off: Jeff Schultz and I debate whether Al Horford is a center.
(I’m kidding. I think.)
Sautee
June 19th, 2009
5:28 pm
Truth serum,
your words to me from your 11:55 a.m June 18 post:
“A good center(not a great one but a good one)would be capable of bringing 14-16 points per night with 12-14 rebounds and 2-3 block shots. Like say a ‘Mutumbo’.”
And now from your 5:05: “Being a center is not about rebounds. I’ve said that so much and you do receive it.”
Can you explain? You know I’m awfully ignorant?
And tell me other than Dwight Howard, which center in the league can deliver 14-16 points AND 12-14 rebounds AND 2-3 blocked shots?
You know, a good center not a great one. I guess like Darryl Dawkins 12 and 6.
No wait, that’s WAY short of 14 and 12. OOPS.
Sautee
June 19th, 2009
5:32 pm
Truth serum,
I’ll be a man. I apologize to you for including Okafor in the list of centers you suggested. I looked back and saw that you were correct about not including him.
My humblest apology.
Jay
June 19th, 2009
5:40 pm
truth serum
You’re right–we do agree on more than we disagree. Horford is best served as a low-post player and having another “big” to back him up or play along side of him can’t hurt. He definitely needs to work on being more consistent with his short-range jumper and improving his offensive moves which leads me to a question.
Who is helping him with that part of his game? For that matter, who is helping any of the Hawks with their game this off-season? Is it against the rules for the Hawks to hire “consultants” to help players improve their game. and Here’s the thing–there’s no starting Center who is so good, affordable and (here’s the key) available for the Hawks to obtain without trading Josh Smith (and no one wants to pay the $6 million trade kicker built in to Smith’s contract) or Joe Johnson (and no one wants to trade for him only to see him leave in free agency after only one year).
Well, one second thought, there is one team that would be willing to make such a deal for Joe Johnson and I’m certain that the New York Knicks would be willing to send Eddy Curry to the Hawks in exchange for Joe Johnson (only kidding!)
Here’s something else that has me a bit perplexed. Didn’t Mark Bradley report that GM Sund believes that you can realisitically compete for a championship if each of your starters is one of the top ten players at that position–the 2004 Detroit Pistons as the model example for this approach. What about your coach? Does your coach need to be one of the top ten coaches in order for the team to win a championship? Of course, that leads to the next question–Is Coach Woodson one of the top ten coaches in the league?
Without a doubt, coaches like Phil Jackson, Greg Popovich, Jerry Sloan, Don Nelson and Larry Brown are in the top ten. Then there are less heralded veterans who have done well in different places like Rick Adelman, George Karl, Flip Saunders, Rick Carlisle, Nate McMillian and Byron Scott. Then there are guys who have shown the ability to win with good talent but not do too much with questionable talent; guys like Doc Rivers, Eddie Jordan, Scott Skiles and Lawrence Frank. Then there are guys who haven’t coached for a long time but have done pretty well so far, guys like Mike Brown, Mike D’Antoni and Stan Van Gundy.
That’s eighteen guys for consideration as part of the top ten coaches in the league and I’ve left coaches like Mike Dunleavy and Jim O’Brien off of the list (for no special reason). Does Coach Woodson belong in the top ten and is it necessary to have a top ten head coach to win a championship? Any possibilty that Sund refused to extend Woodson’s contract because the players have tuned Woodson out?
AB
June 19th, 2009
5:56 pm
If I were Rick Sund, I would keep Marvin and Acie. Let go Woody (their going to be nothing under him), and move Smoove back to SF. If the Hawks keep Horford at C, then they should be looking at a PF, not SF. J-Smoove doesn’t look like a PF (in my opinion), I do agree that Horford’s a C, he’s just under-sized. The Hawks should get a guy LIKE Carlos Boozer (not suggesting we should get Boozer). And, he has to be a legit scoring weapon to help our offense out.
Jay
June 19th, 2009
6:02 pm
And truth serum,
I also apologize about including Okafor in the list of centers. One of Charlotte’s major problems has been finding the right Center to play along side of Okafor-who’s best position is power forward while still finding time, and a place, for Boris Diaw.
Often, but not always, guys who are tall and slender like Okafor, Kevin Garnett and Ralph Sampson (how’s that for old school) are better as forwards while guys who are tall and thickly-built (Nazr Mohammed, Kendrick Perkins and Hakeem Olajuwon) are better as Centers. There’s no doubt that Horford is thickly-built, as is Pachulia, which is probably why the Hawks’ management and coaches think Center is his best position.
Again, truth serum, please accept my apology.
jdewayneatl
June 19th, 2009
6:17 pm
Truth serum and others,
Hypothetically, if the Hawks and Suns decided to swap Josh Smith for Amare Staudamire, who would play CENTER for the Hawks Staudamire or Al Horford?
Staudamire – 6′10” and 249 lbs
Horford – 6′10 and 245 lbs
Sautee
June 19th, 2009
6:21 pm
Truth serum,
I see that you are subtly changing the subject. My beef with you was / is that the examples you gave of a “true center”, that is: Gray, Lopez and Camby didn’t produce much more, if any more, than Horford did.
I NEVER argued that Horford WAS a center, just that he “PLAYED” center as well or better than your examples.
Now somehow that morphs into me “not knowing” what a center is. Two totally different arguments.
The VERY FIRST thing I posted to you was in reference to your comment that
“power forwards can give you minutes at center, but not a career”
to which I said “ummm…….. Ben Wallace, Dave Cowens, Wes Unseld”
Come to think of it, you never responded to that.
We can agree to disagree about “what a center is”, but don’t think from my vehemence in defending the job Horford does “playing center” that I THINK he’s a center. Two different things.
I don’t have rose colored glasses regarding Al. His post game needs a LOT of work, as does his turnaround j. But he’s solid and reliable and getting better as he goes. He makes EXCELLENT decisions, which is why I’ve said for the last year an a half that we should go through him more on offense.
And I’d welcome a sane discussion about what a center is. Of course it can and should vary with the offensive system, and the personnel group. You somehow seem threatened by the idea of Horford as a center. I just see him as the best “player” we have for the 5 spot right now. And the alternatives you named had similar production to what we have already. What’s keeping you from acknowledging that?
truth-serum
June 19th, 2009
6:32 pm
Jay
June 19th, 2009
5:40 pm
Apology accepted.
Yes, Woody made the top ten in the coach of the year polls. Number 9 to be precise The Hawks are in transiton the past 2 years waiting to see who would adapt and raise there game. I an not a Woody hater. Now Im not Dont agree that Horford is a center Im clear about that. On one hand you say every body gets better with playing time when you dont want to give Woody credit for what he has done. On the other hand you say whose going to develop these inexperience players. I say Woody has done a fine Job and is winning with inexperienced players. Cant have it both ways.
What did JJ do during the off season to keep his game tight? Marvin Williams? Flip? Tell Horford and the rest of the guys to do the same. Gentlemen. At the end of the day its up to the individual to better his game. You momma doesnt work here. If I value my job and make millions id hire who I need to work with my game.
But the question is Why work on trying to make a powerforward into a center? When you could get… a center?
AB
June 19th, 2009
6:35 pm
Jay,
I agree, man. You can’t expect top 10-12 talent to respond to an realistly top 20 ranged coach! In order to win, the coach has to be either on the same level or higher to succeed. And, the reason I think the Hawks are so successful so early is because of the players, not the coach. Taking the Celtics to 7 games (in your first playoff appearence, really), advancing to the 2nd Round of the playoffs the following year, those are things other young teams haven’t accomplished yet (not saying they won’t), but the Hawks should really pat themselfs on the back. If they’ve made this much progess so early, why are people suggesting trading Josh? To be honest, sometimes when I watch Hawks games I forget they have a coach, because it’s like their in their own league, and no coach is there. Mike Woodson has done all he can as a coach, but it’s time for him to go. The team knows defense well now, now it’s time to get an offensive mined coach that teaches player devolopment. Next thing you know, the Hawks are Conference snd Division champs!