Face Off: Say goodbye to Marvin, hello to Caron Butler
Read Jeff Schultz’s view: Hawks need to get the point — and it’s Rafer Alston
Marvin Williams is the least essential Hawks starter. He scores points and takes rebounds but seems to leave no imprint on games, and one of the reasons Joe Johnson gets the ball with three seconds on the shot clock — or, worse, Josh Smith gets it 25 feet from the hoop — is that Marvin, four years a pro, still won’t assert himself.
I want to see Marvin not assert himself elsewhere next season. I want the Hawks to re-sign him — he’s a restricted free agent — and ship him and Acie Law to Washington for Caron Butler and Javaris Crittenton. The Wizards are looking to cut salary, so that part would work for them, and they’re also looking to get younger. Williams turns 23 on Friday; Butler is 29. (See ajc.com photo gallery.)
Butler is a small forward with deep range and — key point — a ton of self-assurance. He wants the ball when the clock’s ticking low. He averaged 20.8 points, 6.2 rebounds and 4.3 assists last season to Marvin’s 13.9, 6.3 and 1.3.
My biggest complaint has been that too much of the Hawks’ offense begins and ends with Johnson. (”Iso-Joe,” as clever bloggers have dubbed it.) Butler would lighten that load by making plays of his own — Marvin, as we know, makes few plays — and would provide cover should Mike Bibby leave as a free agent. A team could make do with Flip Murray as its starting point guard if he has Johnson and Butler at 2 and 3.
This trade need not be a loss for the Wizards. In a city where he isn’t known mostly for not being Chris Paul, Williams still could develop into something more than a team’s fifth-best starter. (Not so long ago, he was considered the most gifted player of his draft class.) But it hasn’t panned out for him as a Hawk and, with Johnson and Smith and Al Horford ahead of him now, it won’t ever.
Butler would upgrade the Hawks at one of the two positions that could stand upgrading. The other is point guard, and that’s more problematic. Bibby, who’s an unrestricted free agent, might not want to play for half what he made last season and could well leave. (Law’s time here seems done.) Flip, whom the Hawks will surely re-sign, is best deployed as a scoring sixth man, not an orchestrator. That’s where the draft comes in.
There’s not a Paul or a Deron Williams to be had, but there are some promising guards who figure to be available at No. 19. Eric Maynor of VCU could be there. Patty Mills of St. Mary’s could be. And Ty Lawson of North Carolina, who seemed slotted to go in the lottery, has been dropping in the mock drafts. He could be there, too.
The Hawks are getting close to something good. They don’t need to be taking the long view now. Caron Butler will make $21 million over the next two seasons. That’s a reasonable price for the guy who could bring the Hawks that much closer to Orlando and Cleveland and Boston.
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333 comments Add your comment
Mark Bradley
June 18th, 2009
12:00 am
I second that emotion, O’Brien.
jdewayneatl
June 18th, 2009
12:04 am
glw,
Those are my sentiments exactly. People seem to forget that he has averaged almost a double double in both his rookie and sophomore season at the Center position… with nearly 10 rpg. He know’s how to rebound.
Mark Bradley,
Yes he’s a better offensive player than Thabeet and he could block shots (not Thabeet like but he blocks shots). And just like you say his game is on the post, back to the basket. But I also see him developing that 15-footer this summer, similar to how Marvin developed and improved his 3-point range. Horford would score more, just as Williams would, if more plays were called for him. But the entire offense goes through Joe. If Woody could develop an offense that didn’t have Joe as the first option every play, the other Hawks players would develop their offensive games and cause havoc for defenses.
We could see a little of it already. Its something like what Orlando has… multiple offensive threats. Joe’s supporting cast has learned how to play off of him. Now its time for Joe to step up his “leadership by doing” by learning how to and showing that he could play off of the other guys.
And that’s the key to the upcoming season – Whether or not Woody could create an offense which not only are J-Smoov, Al, Williams, and the “unnamed” pg are playing off of Joe but also one in which Joe is playing off of Al, J-Smoov, and Williams. Charles Barkely said it during the playoffs that the Hawks were not utilizing Al’s passing and playmaking abilities. The talent is there. Woody and Joe are responsible for harnessing and exploiting that talent.
truth-serum
June 18th, 2009
12:14 am
cory
June 17th, 2009
10:50 pm
A COACH IS LIMITED BY THE TALENT OR LACK THERE OF AROUND HIM. LET FACT IT,ACIE, ZAZA, SOLOMAN , MARIO WEST, OTHELLO HUNTER,THOMAS GARDNER AND SPEEDY CLAXTON, WOULD BE STARTERS ON 0…ZERO..NILL…NONE…NADA NBA TEAMS. THATS SEVEN SCRUBBS THAT YOU EXPECT WOODY TO OWN THE NBA WITH. GET REAL. ALMOST ALL OF THEM WOULD GET NO SIGNIFICANT TIME ON ANY OTHER TEAM IN THE NBA.
GREAT JOB FROM WOODY TO GET WHAT HE GOT FROM HIS ROTATION. ID TRADE ALL OF THESE SEVER DWARFS FOR ONE…1….UNO…ICHIBAN…CENTER.
IN PRO SPORTS YOU EITHER STEP UP WHEN GIVING A CHANCE OR YOU DO LIKE KONCAK, RUMEAL ROBINSON, ACIE LAW OR ZAZA PACHULIA. ALL OF THESE GUYS SHOWED TALENT AS AMATURES, BUT DID NOT PAN OUT AS PROS
GUYS LIKE KEN AND BIG RAY REMIND ME OF MOTHER WHO WHINE ABOUT THE COACH WHEN THEIR SONS DONT MAKE THE TEAM. ITS NOT THE COACHES FAULT THESE GUYS ARE SCRUBBS AND DONT STEP UP WHEN GIVEN THE CHANCE. THEYVE ALL BEEN GIVEN THE CHANCE. QUIT WHINNING.
RealSquawk
June 18th, 2009
12:20 am
O’Brein,
I think Marvin can and will be an All Star.
That’s at least one person.
And how expensive is a lobotomy because that is what you guys are asking for with Smith. This isn’t three years in Smith this is what five years in Smith. What you see with his demeanor is what you get. If he changes thanks for the miracle.
Now with Marvin all we need to do is ask. All we need to do is Ask. All we need to do is Ask. All we need to do is Ask.
Smith needs a lobotomy. Do they even do those anymore?
Ariose
June 18th, 2009
12:21 am
“Outside of Butler’s far superior assist rate, there’s little differentiating these two per opportunity. Considering the possibility that, at 22, Marvin Williams 2008-09 three-point shooting (35.5% in 155 attempts) represents a new level of true talent where Butler, who has made less than 32% of his threes in five of seven NBA seasons (including two of his four in Washington) through the age of 28, is unlikely to improve to a similar degree in that respect and that Williams’ FT Rate is significantly better than Butler’s (34.6 v. 27.7) despite Butler’s excellent free throw percentage (85.2% for his career) it’s fair, I contend, to assume that Williams is more likely to score efficiently going forward even before accounting the circumstances* in which they compiled their numbers to date.”
“*Butler as a key component of Eddie Jordan’s motion offense; Williams as an afterthought in Mike Woodson’s motionless offense.”
“Personally, I’d prefer the younger guy who gets to the free throw line more often, is a better rebounder, and has greater range better to complement the two young frontcourt players (Al Horford and Josh Smith*) who need more touches in the post. Which isn’t to say that it’s vital the Hawks keep Marvin Williams just that he still possesses enough potential that exchanging him for a slight upgrade at the small forward position (which is likely the easiest position at which to find a relatively cheap complementary player) rather than acquiring a young point guard or a big man who can defend and rebound is unlikely to make enough difference in the short term to outweigh the risk that Marvin Williams’ value (both on-court and trade value) may be on the cusp of increasing.”
Link:
http://www.hoopinionblog.com/2009/06/marvin-williams-v-caron-butler.html
The Truth
June 18th, 2009
12:21 am
O’brien
With this Marvin – Butler trade, the question become, if we are whining about Marvin qualifying 7.3M contract and his market demand potential, why would we spend 3M more and pickup Butler current contract of 10.5M? At least Charlie qualifying contract is only 4.6M. If the stories in Mil are half true, he could be available. Even as a RFA, we could take a shot and make a bid or work out a sign-and-trade and throw in Speedy.
HawkKingBibby
June 18th, 2009
12:24 am
Mark I did a little research and now Im almost positive Speedy has to be included in your trade. If Marv hits the byc number on his new deal ( which for him I think would be any contract staring around 6.5 mil or over ) then the Hwks can only take back half the salary in a trade. So lets say Marv signs a deal staring at 7 mil a season, well the Hawks can only take back 3.5 mil in salary ( or within 20% of that). So the Hawks would have to add Speedy (who’s nickname should be BYC Krytonite) to match salaries with the Wizards Butler. The problem is this makes the trade even worse for the Wiz because not only will Speedy’s 6 mill and change count on their cap but Marv will count as a full 8 mil or maybe even more depending on the average per year of his deal. So they will be taking more salary back then they send and they will be in a worse cap situation then they were already in. The only way is to get Marv to sign a deal staring just under the byc # which again I think is in the 6.5 mil range for him but I will have to do a little more research.
HawkKingBibby
June 18th, 2009
12:28 am
I cant believe I spelled the word starting without the second T 3 times. That will teach me not to proof read.
Ariose
June 18th, 2009
12:28 am
Marvin Williams 08-09 Season Highlights:
Link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC5aLzd2HkE
I just want to make sure that you guys realize that we’d be giving up on a 22 year old, who scores 15ppg as the 5th option and never has plays run for him and he doesn’t need to dominate the ball in order for all of that to happen. Remeber how his numbers spiked when Joe was out and he got all those touches? Way more efficent than Caron Butler in my opinion. Caron gets a ton of touches and isn’t giving you too much more, If Marvin got Caron’s touches he’s probably LIVE at the FT line and average 8-14 more points a game….
Mark Bradley
June 18th, 2009
12:30 am
Yeah, and I’ve since realized Acie makes twice as much as Crittenton. And people in D.C. keep saying the Wizards are looking to gear up, not cut costs. (I’ve heard it both ways.)
So maybe we should go back to my original idea: Speedy for Dwight Howard.
Ariose
June 18th, 2009
12:35 am
We need to trade into the draft. We should draft all four of these guys: Patrick Mills, Tyler Hansbrough, Wayne Ellington, and Danny Green. Then sign eveybody back and sign Gerald Green….we’ll have arguably the most talented bench in the leauge…..and for the cheap too. We’ll just have to have a Center by committe with Hansbrough,Smoove, AL, Zaza, and Solo all contributing to wreak havoc down low, I think we’ll be just fine.
We’ll have evey position backed up extremely well and Joe will finally be able to get some rest. Not to mention lots of trading chips if we do decide to deal for a big man.
Ariose
June 18th, 2009
12:36 am
Oh yeah, and Trade Randolph and Speedy to ge into the draft…..
truth-serum
June 18th, 2009
12:38 am
2009 PLAYOFFS
Player G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF TOT APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
Al Horford 9 9 28.0 .424 .000 .667 1.30 4.40 5.80 2.0 .67 .67 .44 2.90 6.9
THIS IS NOT A STARTING CENTER. IM SORRY. TO AVERAGE 1 OFFENSIVE REBOUND 4.4 DEFENSIVE REBOUNDS 2 ASSISTS NO STEALS NO BLOCKS 3 PERSONAL FOULS AND 6.9 POINTS IN NOT GOING TO CUT IN PAST THE FIRST ROUND. THIS IN NOT A NBA CENTER. IF YOU GET PAST YOUR HATRED OF WOODSON AND DEAL WITH REALITY MARK MO DUMB BRADLEY, YOU WILL REALIZE JUST HOW WEAK WE ARE AT THE CENTER POSITION.
truth-serum
June 18th, 2009
12:41 am
Mark Bradley
June 18th, 2009
12:30 am
So maybe we should go back to my original idea: Speedy for Dwight Howard.
YOU MAY NOT KNOW BASKETBALL BUT YOU ARE CERTAINLY FUNNY. GOOD ONE!
The Truth
June 18th, 2009
12:41 am
Mark
As I said, this Marvin-Butler idea won’t happen.
Oh well, what the hell, we got nothing better to do until Mr. Sund exactly does something. Perhaps we should hold our breath on that as well.
RealSquawk
June 18th, 2009
12:48 am
Hey Mr. Bradley
do you only read the post where people agree with you
well here we go. Marvin for caron would help the team for about two seasons.
mean while in Washington Marvin Williams proves his worth in this new offensive season in featuring passing and motion.
why don’t you blog or write about the real problem instead of a person who actually tries to play the game respectively.
jdewayneatl
June 18th, 2009
12:48 am
O’brien,
I feel where you’re coming from, especially on the Charlie V thing. I could tell that you are a big Marvin fan. And I must say that I love his talent too. But to say that Smith’s stats aren’t jawdropping compared to Williams is just not acknowledging the truth. This is a guy that averaged 17.2 ppg 8.2 rpg 3.4 apg 2.8 bpg and 1.5 spg in the 07-08 season when he missed only one game. Those numbers says alot about insane activity on the court. I root for Marvin but you can’t deny Smith’s unique talent. 10 more points per game, without a name above the stats, most people would assume it was Lebron, Kobe, or Wade with a down year on the assists end lol. But 3.5 for a PF is great number. Pau Gasol lead all PF’s this season with 3.5 apg.
Jody,
I have Mark’s back on this one. I’ve said it before, there are numerous players Horford’s size who he compete’s with more regularly than he does a player he is totally outmatched. The Hawk’s even had a remedy for Dwight Howard’s dominance during the season. There are actually more guy’s shy of 7-foot playing Center than there are 7-footers all together, not to mention those that are actually a force on the court. Most times THEY JUST LOOK BIG.
Truth-serum,
Kevin Garnett averaged 0.0 ppg 0.0 rpg 0.0 bpg 0.0 apg. Why? Because he was injured. Al and Marvin were injured throughout the playoffs, so of course Al’s stats are gonna be down. And if Grey was a better Center I’m sure he wouldn’t be the 3rd option off the bench for the Bulls. Again, bigger does not mean better.
RealSquawk
June 18th, 2009
12:49 am
Ariose,
are these your vids?
jdewayneatl
June 18th, 2009
1:04 am
“They even had a remedy for Dwight Howard’s dominance.” Well atleast for one game lol!
truth-serum
June 18th, 2009
1:17 am
jdewayneatl
June 18th, 2009
12:48 am
GREY IS A ROOKIE. ITS HIS FIRST YEAR. JUST KEEPING IT REAL FOR ALL YOU PEOPLE WHO SAY THERES NO REAL CENTER TALENT OUT THERE. IF YOU HAVENT SEEN THE MAN PLAY JUST ASK
chris warr
June 17th, 2009
11:22 pm
I AGREE THAT AL WORE DOWN AND ALMOST BROKE HIS LEG TRYING TO PLAY CENTER AGAINST THE BIG BOYS. HE WASTES SO MUCH ENERGY USING HIS ATHLETICISM TO AVERAGE LESS THAN 10 REBOUNDS A GAME DURING THE REGULAR SEASON THAT IT WEARS DOWN HIS NUMBERS AND AS WE SAW IN THE PLAYOFF IT WILL ULTIMATLEY BECOME A HEALTH RISK. 9 REBOUNDS AND 9 POINTS AVERAGE FOR A GAME DOES NOT MAKE A GOOD CENTER IN THE NBA. HES AVERAGE TO MEDIOCRE AS A CENTER, BUT EVEN THAT IS BETTER THAN PACHULIA WHO WAS LESS OF A REBOUNDER THAN MARVIN WILLIAM WHO IS A GUARD/FORWARD. JUST KEEPING IT REAL. LOOKING AT STATS INSTEAD OF POPULARITY. I LIKE HORFORD TOO, AT POWER FORWARD AND FACING THE BASKET! HE COULD GET HIS NUMBERS UP IF HE PLAYED HIS NATURAL AND DRAFTED POSITION, POWER FORWARD
KEVIN GARNETT IS ALSO A PF AND WAS NOT IN THE PLAY OFFS BUT IF YOU COMPARE HIS REGULAR SEASON AGAINST HORFORDS, GARNETT AVERAGED 15.8 POINTS TO LESS THAN 10 FOR HORFORD. GARNETT ALSO AVERAGE 1 STEAL 1BLK 84% FROM THE LINE.
Ariose
June 18th, 2009
1:18 am
Squawk, Nah. I need to get the proper eqipment and start making my own though lol. Lord, knows i’ve got enough footage lol.
That Particular person just happens to be one of my favorite video makers. I usually got to him when I have a request.
truth-serum
June 18th, 2009
1:28 am
jdewayneatl
June 18th, 2009
1:04 am
HOWARD DID NOT PLAY IN THE GAME THE HAWKS BE THE MAGIC.
Ariose
June 18th, 2009
1:31 am
Check this out
Link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2j4TdxzOTEo
Stephen Jackson Throwback(Atlanta Hawks Edition)
James
June 18th, 2009
1:36 am
this is how the hawks lineup should look next year if they made all the right moves.
pg: rafer alston/flip murray
sg: joe johnson/ramon seccesions
sf: richard jefferson/charlie villaneuva
pf: al horford/zaza pachulia
c: hasheem thabeet/rasheed wallace
truth-serum
June 18th, 2009
1:50 am
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
10:15 pm
One other thing about Al Horford: He can score some points at center. I’m not sure he’d score much at power forward. He’s better with his back to the goal than he is facing up and shooting jumpers. And if you paired a non-scoring center — Hasheem Thabeet, say — with Horford at power forward … well, you wouldn’t have much in the way of post offense.
2009 PLAYOFFS
Player G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF TOT APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
Al Horford 9 9 28.0 .424 .000 .667 1.30 4.40 5.80 2.0 .67 .67 .44 2.90 6.9
THIS IS WHY I CALL YOU MO DUMB BRADLEY. 42% IS NOT A FINISHER IN THE LOW POST. 6.9 POINTS PER GAME IS NOT SCORING IN THE POST 1 OFFENSIVE AND 4 DEFENSIVE REBOUNDS IS NOT A REBOUNDER WITH 0 BLOCKS IS NOT A FORCE IN THE POST. DUDE THIS AINT CUTTING IT. GET REAL. WHAT IS THIS LIKE THE POLITICS OF SILLY?
THIS IS A FUNNIER JOKE THAN THE SPEEDY FOR DWIGHT TRADE.
niremetal
June 18th, 2009
3:11 am
People who watch enough Hawks games know that Marvin can play. Just because a guy does what he wants him to doesn’t mean that being assertive isn’t in his DNA. Throughout his career – college and NBA – Marvin has done whatever has been asked of him and done it damned well. At UNC he played the Manu role of coming off the bench to be a sparkplug on both ends. In Atlanta, he came into an environment where there were 3 guys (JJ and the Joshes) who all were basically competing for the same pile of minutes (before everyone figured out that Smoove is a PF). He played whatever position was needed, and played it well. Woody told him to come back with a 3-point shot, and he came back with the smoothest outside stroke on the Hawks besides JJ’s.
He developed into our top perimeter defender to take pressure of JJ and Josh (who had to play less help defense this year thanks to Marvin stepping it up). And when JJ went down, Marvin took over as our main offensive weapon. As soon as JJ came back, Marvin went back to being the defensive and perimeter shooting specialist he’d been before.
People who watch the games know that Marvin is a very good player. He’s not LeBron, but he doesn’t have to be. You don’t want a team with 5 chiefs and 0 Indians on the floor. Teams like that don’t contend for titles. Marvin is a Lamar Odom type who will come in and do whatever is needed to help the team win. He’s a lot like JJ was before he left Phoenix – stuck in a system where the true extent of his abilities have been subordinated for the good of the team.
Everyone who watched the Hawks between December and March (when Marvin went down hurt) and didn’t have a preexisting bias based on Marvin’s draft position saw the same thing – Marvin was having a breakout year (as Sekou himself said), even though his stat line wasn’t showing it. He played tenacious defense on LeBron and Pierce, was driving to the rim and drawing fouls with no fear, and stroking 3s with a hand in his face. And he did it all without a single play being run for him unless JJ was resting or out injured.
You don’t trade guys like that. If we got rid of him, we’d have to find someone else who would do what he does. You make it sound like it’s easy to find players as talented as Marvin who are willing to put the good of the team above the good of their own stat line. It’s not. If it were, the Lakers would have viewed Lamar Odom as expendable and the Bulls would have traded Toni Kukoc to one of the many teams who wanted to make him their franchise player.
My guess is that Sund realizes that, Mark, even if you don’t. Because I suspect if you’d watched more Hawks games between Dec and March, you’d feel differently about Marvin.
JC
June 18th, 2009
4:41 am
I love how a ton of the comments here balk at the deal with the rationale of Acie for Critts? No Wayzors!
Give me a break! Acie for Critts is a swap of nothing, why is everyone here so apt to keep Acie Law? I saw him shoot in college, but I can’t say he’s done that in the pros…granted you have to get off the bench first.
If the Wiz would be crazy enough to unload Caron for Marvin and filler, Sund would have to take them up on it, even if it means losing the great Acie Law IV.
Sautee
June 18th, 2009
9:23 am
Truth serum,
Yes or no question for you. Do you consider Andrew Bogut (7′ 0″, 260) to be a “true center” as you call it?
YES or NO?
TheSecretWeapon
June 18th, 2009
9:53 am
The Wizards are not looking to cut costs, as Mr. Bradley finally acknowledges in a comment above. Even if they were, they almost certainly would look someplace other than Butler, who is productive and signed to a reasonable deal. If the Wizards are to be involved, the 5th pick plus one of the youngsters would be a more realistic deal for Williams, depending on the vagaries of the league’s trade and cap rules. Something like the pick plus Nick Young and a ballast expiring (Etan Thomas or Mike James) might work from the Wiz perspective.
Hoops
June 18th, 2009
10:05 am
Mark,
I believe the weak spots on the Hawks team is PG and Center. If you are trading Marvin to improve those two positions fine. But, your trade still leaves us weak @ PG and Center. Caron might be a upgrade, but it will not get us to the Finals.
My plan-Sign Sessions and trade Josh for Barqnani and their #9 pick.(Listen, you might like this) Let Bibby walk. Resign Zaza and Marvin. Sign and trade Flip for Charlie V.
Look @ this line up with Horford @ PF, but staying inside on offense:
PG-Sessions, Acie(there is not a better PG in this draft than Acie)
SG-JJ, Tyreke Evans(#9 pick)-in case we loose JJ next year
SF-Marvin, Mo Evans, #19 pick-Earl Clark, Budinger or D. Brown for when Mo leaves next year
PF-Horford, Charlie V. (Horford plays inside with Barqnani out)
C-Barqnani, Zaza, Morris (Zaza plays inside with Charlie V. out on the second unit)
Think this one over! I haven’t seen this plan before.
JB
June 18th, 2009
10:10 am
What are you guys smoking in the ATL. I’m live in DC and there is no way Ernie Grunfield would trade Tough Juice for Marvin Williams. First off, Butler is toughest player on the team. And your rationale that Law is better that Crit…who cares. Both are backups at best. Thanks but no thanks. Pawn off your draft busts on someone else!
MBZ
June 18th, 2009
10:24 am
Marvin Williams has gotta stay. The very first thing that should be done is to get a new coach that maximizes talent. Not a guy who rides his backcourt when his forntcourt is one of the best in the league.
O'brien
June 18th, 2009
10:36 am
Hoops,
I’m with you on the Sessions and Charlie V. I would sign both if possible (or at least one of them, because I dont think that Milwaukee can afford to keep them both).
BUT…trading for Bargnani? No thank you. He has been inconsistent, and he plays too soft in my opinion.
Hoops
June 18th, 2009
10:50 am
O’brien,
I’ll agree that Barqnani plays soft but he can shoot the 3. He makes 41% of his 3’s. With that being said, what center do we get that can play offense outside and shoot better? Horford is better on offense inside. Rasheed?
Hoops
June 18th, 2009
10:54 am
O’brien,
The real problem here is that BK signed too many players that play the same position!!!
truth-serum
June 18th, 2009
11:55 am
Sautee
June 18th, 2009
9:23 am
I must be honest and say Ive never seen him play. The bottom line is Horford averages less than ten points a game and less than ten rebounds a game. Thats pathetic at best if you want him to be a center. During step up time in the playoffs he averages 6.9 points a game and 5 rebounds, 0 blocks,0 steal. Thats not a NBA center. Paschulia is even less a rebounder then Marvin William a 2/3 guard.
The tandem of ZAZA watch this turnover pachulia and Horford is amongst the worst in the NBA. A good center(not a great one but a good one)would be capable of bringing 14-16 points per night with 12-14 rebounds and 2-3 block shots. Like say a ‘Mutumbo’.
Horford brings 9.7 and 9.6 with no blocks. Hes nearly expired at the end of the season from phsical exertion, so his playoff numbers are even worse.
Get past the height thing. Height is good and an assest but thats not what makes a center. Ask Moses Malone. Its about being a man in the post and being territorial. Horford is not an NBA center and his numbers prove that. It hurts the team to have him as the center. He cant move the other center out of the post so the lane gets clogged and slashers like Josh and JJ go out side because Horford cant man the middle, and when ZaZa is in,…well its time to practice your show dunks!!
Horford cant score because he does not have the shot to shoot over 6′10″ – 7′0″ centers with his back to the basket. His 46% shooting is stupid for a center where you should have the highest percentage of scoring and a dunk is the highest percentage shot!! Dude. I like Horford too but if you get past the “I Hate Woody” campaign and look at the numbers the guy is not cutting it. Its our weakest position!!
JB
June 18th, 2009
10:10 am
Excellent point! I call them the seven dwarfs
LET FACT IT,ACIE, ZAZA, SOLOMAN , MARIO WEST, OTHELLO HUNTER,THOMAS GARDNER AND SPEEDY CLAXTON, WOULD BE STARTERS ON 0…ZERO..NILL…NONE…NADA NBA TEAMS. THATS SEVEN SCRUBBS THAT YOU EXPECT WOODY TO OWN THE NBA WITH. GET REAL. ALMOST ALL OF THEM WOULD GET NO SIGNIFICANT TIME ON ANY OTHER TEAM IN THE NBA. They are draft or sign burst. You cant make ZaZa Tim Duncan. He went from starter to turnover factory. Acie has hand enough time in practice and games to develop.The one hes got to blame is the man in the mirror. Hes alot like Rumiel Robinson. You either step up or sit down. Quit whinning like a mother whose son doesnt make the grade and so she blames the coach. The coach did not shoot that brick or turn the ball over or give up the dunk. Your son did.
Hoops
June 18th, 2009
10:54 am
O’brien,
The real problem here is that BK signed too many players that play the same position!!!
I just thought Id acknowledge the truth in your statement. Thats what happens when you draft foe best available athlete rather than for need. The hawks need a center, so they go after a guard or another forward.
Grey, lopez,Camby,Hasheem Thabeet, there are options if you want to put together a team.
Jay
June 18th, 2009
12:24 pm
Before trading/giving up on Marvin Williams too soon, consider the saga of Chauncey Billups. Drafted after his sophomore year at the University of Colorado by Boston with the number 3 overall pick in 1997, he was out of the league after his rookie season and played with five teams during his first four seasons. At the end of his fourth season, he was considered one of the biggest busts in NBA history. However, things started to turn around for him in his fifth season (when he turned 25 years old), he signed as a free agent with Detroit in 2002 and now he’s an All-Star caliber, clutch shot-making, championship winning PG.
My earlier point about Jarrett Jack being similar to Billups was that they are the same height and have a similar style of game and, IMO, Jack will blossom when he find the right system for his talents as Billups did (maybe not first team all-pro but certainly in the top ten at that position).
The debate around Smith and Williams reminds me of the old debate of which would you rather be: the lion or the tiger. The truth is that all the on-court reasons for keeping the 23 year old Josh Smith are valid and are the exact same reasons for keeping the 23 year old Marvin Williams. The true difference is that Smith does everything, good or bad, with excitement (like the tiger) while Williams does everything, good or bad, with subtlety (like the lion).
However, we as fans often overlook the fact that owning a sports franchise is a business venture; one in which financial concerns often outweigh basketball decisions. How else do you explain Denver trading Marcus Camby, and his $10 million salary, to the Clippers for the right to exchange second round draft choices? While teams like Dallas, Cleveland, the Lakers and even the Knicks are willing to spend whatever amount is necessary to win a championship, the ASG has never shown such an inclination.
Here are six things we know about the future: First, Hawks’ ownership likes Coach Woodson. Second, Coach Woodson wants all of his free-agents to return. Third, Smith is already signed to a long-term, big money contract. Fourth, Joe Johnson will be a free-agent next year while Al Horford will be a restricted free-agent in 2011 and that they’ll have to spend to keep both guys. Fifth, the salary cap, and luxury tax cap will be lower than last year and sixth, there will be first round draft choices to sign every year for the foreseeable future.
So the real question is can they afford to sign everyone else AND afford to keep Marvin Williams? If they can, then they should. If they cannot afford to do so (and Mark Bradley has strongly hinted at it without coming out and saying it), then a sign-and-trade using Williams might be a good financial decision but will be a bad basketball decision; especially if Williams goes to a team that features him in their offense and he blossoms into someone who probably won’t make the All-Star team from the Eastern Conference as long as LeBron James and Paul Pierce are also in the Eastern Conference, but will be someone deserving of All-Star team consideration like Milwaukee’s Richard Jefferson and Orlando’s Hedo Turkoglu.
O'brien
June 18th, 2009
1:05 pm
Hoops,
I like Rasheed. Another center that has been mentioned is Mehmet Okur. The problem is Rasheed said he wants $8 mil per, and I’m sure he wants to be a starter (Okur too, who could opt out of his contract in Utah).
If the Hawks want to be radical (I think Ariose suggested it), they could sign Rasheed to a 2 year deal, and bring Horford off the bench as our backup center/PF (especially if they lose Zaza). In 2 years when Rasheed’s contract is up, then you can decide if Al is a full time PF or center.
Honestly, with Al as our starting 5, Josh as our starting 4, Marvin as our starting 3, I dont see the Hawks being a championship contender. Sure, they might win 40-50 games, compete for the 4th – 8th spot, but championship contenders? No.
O'brien
June 18th, 2009
1:07 pm
People say Al is a starter in this legue. And thats true. But so is Lamar Odom. So is Manu Ginobli, so is Jason Terry. Those guys are good enough to start on a number of teams, but sometimes coming off the bench is necessary (and sometimes even better).
Sautee
June 18th, 2009
2:32 pm
Truth serum,
I’m certainly NOT hung up on size being the defining point of a Center.
It’s interesting that you bring up Camby. An inch taller and 15 -20 pounds lighter than Horford.
Camby’s career totals are 10.7 pts. , 9.8 reb., 1.9 assists, 1.0 steals and 2.6 blocks.
Horfords totals 10.8 pts., 9.5 reb., 1.9 assists, 0.8 steals, and 1.1 blocks
VERY similar stats, I’d say. other than blocked shots, which Horford RAISED by .5 from last season. Which means that this season he blocked an extra shot every 2 games better than the year before. He also cut down on his turnovers and personal fouls, further helping his team in subtle ways that aren’t always viewed.
Why do you hate on Horford so much? I asked about Bogut NOT because of his size, but because the Bucks signed him to a MAX extension this time last year, BECAUSE they said there were so few good big men available.
Bogut’s career stats: 11.9 pts. 8.7 reb., 2.5 assists, 0.7 steals, 1.0 blks.
That too looks pretty dang similar to Horford’s numbers. Except that Horford is two years younger and will obviously have a chance to improve his numbers before HIS 4th year.
And you also mentioned Brook Lopez:
13.0 pts. 8.1 reb. 1.0 assists, 0.5 steals, 1.8 blocks.
Geez truth serum he’s an example of a “true center” and he rebounds LESS than Horford despite being 3 inches taller and outscored Al this season by a whopping 1.5 points. That’s less than one made shot per game, and I’ll wager that Lopez is NOT the 5th (or 6th) option on offense the way Horford is.
Listen man I hear your pleas, but you are not being realistic. Look at the stats. There are only 8 centers in the league averaging at least 14 points a game. I’ll say it again, ONLY 8 CENTERS average 14 points or more.
Does Horford need help inside? Certainly, he does, but let’s find a bruiser to come give us 20 minutes off the bench and when we DO play the Yaos, and DHowards of the world, give the bruiser more minutes.
Horford does too many excellent fundamental things to throw him away before he matures. And even if he’s NOT the “ideal” center, he’s doing a good job, IMOH.
And PLEASE don’t list the bogus playoff stats again since EVERYBODY on the blog (apparently but you) realizes that he was playing on a sprained ankle, so those stats are NOT representative of anything but a player playing hurt. You hurt your own case for trying to show his limitations by forcing bogus stats down our throats. If you don’t like him just say so.
Kevin
June 18th, 2009
2:51 pm
while your dreaming, why didn’t you say Marvin Williams for Lebron James or Kobe Bryant?
Ken Strickland
June 18th, 2009
3:25 pm
If you listen to this clown TRUTH SEMEN, OR SERUM, you’ll get an idea of what a fool sounds like that’s gotten too full of his own BS. This clown gets an idea in his head and then goes overboard tying to prove he’s right, including attacking the character of anyone that challenges his self absorbed opinions. He obviously has issues with AHorford and is trying desperately to show he’s not worthy enough to play center. He continues trying to make his points no matter how stupid they sound or how little thought and/or research has been done on his part.
CASE IN POINT-Over the last 14yrs there have been only 2 teams, the 00-02 Lakers and the 05-06 Heat, that have won NBA titles with a center that equaled or exceeded AHorford’s 2008 averages of 11.5PPG, 9.6RPG, 1.42BPG & 2.4APG. The center on both of those teams was SOneal. You have to go back to the mid 60’s and beyond, to the days of David Robinson, Hakeem the Dream, Robert Parish and Kareem A. Jabbar, to find centers that won titles with better stats than AHorford. Just in case you didn’t notice, each of these aforementioned centers were listed in the top 50 greatest players in NBA history.
I’ll bet championship calibur teams like the Lakers, Pistons, Spurs, Cavaliers, Celtics, and even the Suns, Jazz, Knicks, Bobcats, Heat etc, would jump at the chance to have him as their center.
TRUTH SERUM-you might not like AHorford, or think he can play the center position, but you can’t continue relying on your vast store of ignorance and stupidity trying to change the facts.
Max Power
June 18th, 2009
3:44 pm
First of all, Butler is worth more than Marvin. What else are you proposing to throw in to match salaries? Nobody is signing 13 ppg Marvin for $10 million/yr. He will be very lucky if he gets 8, but probably more like 7/yr. The three million difference is roughly equal to what the first pick could be sold for. So would you deal Marin and the first for Butler? I wouldn’t.
I might think about Marvin for Marion. They will get about the same $$ next year. Marion is older, but he defends at least as well and he creates all of his own shots. But I just don’t know about the age difference. Don’t know if I would be willing to trade a young asset like Marvin.
On the other hand, the Cleavland series was so close. Marion might just be the difference next year. Man, on a team where someone knows how to throw an alley oop pass, he would be awesome.
David
June 18th, 2009
4:28 pm
The Wizards a very young team, Nick young, Dominic Mcguire, Andray Blatche, Javale Mcgee, Javaris Crittenton, all these players are 25 and under. Bradley you must be smoking something, the wizards would never let an all star like Caron go even if it was cheaper it makes no sense. If anybody would go from the starting lineup it would be Jamison because he’s aging, and the Wizards are looking for a more Agrressive Power Forward. This trade scenario is just wishful thinking for an Atlanta Hawk fan, but it is so far off from reality, don’t kid yourself.
trtuth-serum
June 18th, 2009
4:52 pm
Ken Strickland
June 18th, 2009
3:25 pm
Im sorry you feel a need to speak VUL..GAR..LY.
I hope you are having a nice day and a spirit of peace and love is flowing in your heart.
You are opinionated.
I prefer facts.
THE NUMBER SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES. I MERELY LISTED HORFORD SEASONAL AVERAGE AND HIS PLAYOFF AVERAGE AND EXAMINED WHAT THOSE NUMBERS BROUGHT TO THE TABLE.
In the words of the Modern day spiritual… It is… What it is.
I like Horford very much as a person and even better as a powerforward, but getting past the nice guy sentiments, reality sets in. Hes no offensive threat and hes to small framed and not strong enough to man the post. Next year he might pull an achilles or groin.
You and I have different approaches to the game. I like to examine the production,crunch the numbers,look at the impact and see the athleticism and how they run….
You are highly opinionated,irrational,unlearned and clueless. The only thing you run is your mouth which is fueled by your hatred and jealousy of Woody, who dispite your campaign will be back again.
If you can humble yourself and recieve knowledge then take a look at the following post…I think these guys are advancing wisdom on this site.
Jay
June 18th, 2009
12:24 pm
also try
O’brien
June 18th, 2009
1:05 pm
Hoops
June 18th, 2009
10:54 am
These guys are cooking!
Sautee
June 18th, 2009
2:32 pm
I appreciate you. Im sure you mean well. Here what the hawks site shows about Horford
Team G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
08-09 ATL 67 67 33.5 0.525 0.000 0.727 2.2 7.1 9.3 2.4 0.8 1.4 1.54 2.80 11.5
Career 148 144 32.3 0.511 0.000 0.729 2.7 6.9 9.5 1.9 0.8 1.1 1.62 3.10 10.8
His numbers are decreasing here and they decreased even more so in the play offs.
heres what he did againt cleveland front
FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
Conf. Semi-Finals ATL 3 3 26.7 0.333 0.000 0.000 1.3 3.7 5.0 2.0 1.0 0.7 0.67 3.00 3.3
His overall playoff average is 6.9 ppg and 5 rebounds per game.
Let deal with facts.Thats what GM’s do.
Why must I hate Horford to be objective?
The numbers dont lie. The dude was 3.3 points a game and averaged 5 rebounds and a half of a block. Businesses are not made on emotions but facts and numbers.
I do agree with you that Camby is a better shot blocker and camby is capable of scoring 12-16 points every night. Just because he did not dont mean he cant. His man knows that and thats why hes has to stay home on Camby and not roam. Thats not the case with Horford and Zaza the human meltdown. Horford is at top 10-11 point a game and thats a good night. His double doubles are 10 and 10. I agree with the other guys who say hed be better coming off the bench. I do like Horford. I also like winning.
To sum it up heres what NBA.com has for Camby’s efficiency rating which considers all the aspect required of his position.
2008-09 Statistics
PPG 10.3 RPG 11.10 APG 2.0
EFF + 20.26
heres what they have for horford and his playoff experience
PPG 6.9 RPG 5.80 APG 2.0
EFF + 11.11
EFF + 20.26 (Camby)
EFF + 11.11 (horford)
Have a nice day.
Horford’s career numbers are bolster by the time he spent as a powerforward when he first got here, his natural position and before the ZaZa the expressway to the cup is open lost his starting role.
Im just say horford and the hawks would be better served with him at forward facing the basket(his natural instinct) and perhaps coming off the bench.
niremetal
June 18th, 2009
4:58 pm
Jay,
Good points.
trtuth-serum
June 18th, 2009
5:00 pm
Ken Strickland
June 18th, 2009
3:25 pm
I’ll bet championship calibur teams like the Lakers, Pistons, Spurs, Cavaliers, Celtics,
Really? Id gladly take Bynum for Horford….You think the lakers might make that trade? Duncan for Horford…
Yeah Right!
rusty
June 18th, 2009
5:07 pm
marvin is not that good,another of out big mistakes.eahington would be crazy to make this deal. woody & jj is our big problems. joe because he is a ball hog @ woody because he is the wsorst coach in the nba
Sautee
June 18th, 2009
6:18 pm
Truth serum,
There are SO many things wrong with your post that I’m not sure I can address them all. I’ll start with this: “I AGREE THAT AL WORE DOWN AND ALMOST BROKE HIS LEG TRYING TO PLAY CENTER AGAINST THE BIG BOYS.”
OK, if he almost broke his leg, and THEN tried to help his team, playing on an “almost broken leg”, WHY would his stats in those games be a valid comparison of ANYTHING? And you say you want to deal in FACTS? No, you want to try and win an argument when the stats don’t favor your point, so I guess you think the rest of us are foolish enough to find validity there. We are not. And if you are deluded enough to think that THAT is being objective, then I’ll just have to let you live in your happy little world.
And about that “wearing down” thing, if you’ll check back at nba.com / stats you’ll see that AFTER the all star break, AL was THIRD among Centers in double-doubles, trailing only Yao and Howard. So much for wearing down.
And OF COURSE if you compare Al season numbers form this year to his career numbers, the result will go down, but that’s because he had a better season THIS YEAR than last, his ONLY two seasons. It doesn’t show slippage, but the opposite. It’s disingenuous to try and say he’s slipped.
Then there’s this piece of disinformation: “Horford’s career numbers are bolster by the time he spent as a power forward when he first got here, his natural position and before the ZaZa the expressway to the cup is open lost his starting role.”
Horford has been the starting Center from the first regular season game in Dallas in 07-08. He has NEVER NOT been the starting center except for when Josh was hurt early this season. Otherwise, he has only spent time at power forward while Zaza came off the bench. Zaza lost his starting role BEFORE the 07-08 season began. Get your facts straight, please.
Now, the Camby comparison. I noticed that you picked Al’s PLAYOFF stats (which, as we’ve discussed were NOT a valid thing to use, since he was playing on an “almost broken leg”) instead of his regular season stats, which would be a more valid comparison. Did you think we wouldn’t notice the difference?
Here’s the true comparison using the regular season for both:
Camby PPG 10.3 RPG 11.10 APG 2.0 EFF + 20.26
Horford PPG 11.5 RPG 9.3 APG 2.4 EFF + 18.91
Looks a little different, eh? Camby was 6th in efficiency among centers. Horford was 8th .
Which, most ironically, was HIGHER than some of the “true centers“ you‘ve named. Okafor was 10th, B. Lopez was 13th and your boy Aaron Gray was 49th!. OOPS!
Hey, YOU were the one bringing up the efficiency numbers.
If the best you can do is to keep parroting Horford’s poor playoff numbers, as if they were valid, then you’ve lost this argument already.
If the best you can do is compare Camby’s regular season numbers with numbers you already KNOW are NOT valid, well, I guess I’ll stop listening and get my scroll on when I see your posts.
vava74
June 18th, 2009
7:33 pm
Mark,
Either you simply don’t know anything about basketball or you just get a kick out of launching stupid trade suggestions!
This proposed trade is stupid beyond belief. Marvin is only 23 and has improved every single year in a significant way (look at his 3 point range, with just 1 summer dedicated to it).
Caron Butler is a fine player but has bad record with injuries, is not getting any younger and is playing for a lottery team with little or no pressure.
Marvin can easily become one of the best 3’s in the game. Just give him a couple of years.
Also, Marvin has made is mark defending Lebron (during the regular season we had 1 win and 1 loss coming out of a very very disputable decision by the blind mice with Marving doing a standout job – you were probably drinking margaritas on some joint instead of looking at the game) which is something very few players can boast about.
He has the potential to be a superior one-on-one defender and that my friends is by far more important than the 6 pts average he gives to Caron (in a Arenas-less lottery bound team, I would like to remind you).
Also, to say that Kendrik Perkins is not TODAY better than Al is delusional. K Perkins is an exceptional role player and is still developing. Al has tremendous potential and should be better than Kendrick on the long run but TODAY you cannot even compare them. Al is still very limited offensively and has no real inside game (Al will have some day, but not yet) and doesn’t have the body to work effectively on the 5 spot whilst Kendrick does.
I would also like to say that the other idiot’s suggestion to get Rafer Alston is yet another delusional proposal. Alston cannot find a team mate on an organised offensive set even if he was lead by his arm like a blind man by Magic Johnson. He has some street ball talent, but as a PG, he is average AT BEST and his shot is most of the time well off mark!