Face Off: Say goodbye to Marvin, hello to Caron Butler
Read Jeff Schultz’s view: Hawks need to get the point — and it’s Rafer Alston
Marvin Williams is the least essential Hawks starter. He scores points and takes rebounds but seems to leave no imprint on games, and one of the reasons Joe Johnson gets the ball with three seconds on the shot clock — or, worse, Josh Smith gets it 25 feet from the hoop — is that Marvin, four years a pro, still won’t assert himself.
I want to see Marvin not assert himself elsewhere next season. I want the Hawks to re-sign him — he’s a restricted free agent — and ship him and Acie Law to Washington for Caron Butler and Javaris Crittenton. The Wizards are looking to cut salary, so that part would work for them, and they’re also looking to get younger. Williams turns 23 on Friday; Butler is 29. (See ajc.com photo gallery.)
Butler is a small forward with deep range and — key point — a ton of self-assurance. He wants the ball when the clock’s ticking low. He averaged 20.8 points, 6.2 rebounds and 4.3 assists last season to Marvin’s 13.9, 6.3 and 1.3.
My biggest complaint has been that too much of the Hawks’ offense begins and ends with Johnson. (”Iso-Joe,” as clever bloggers have dubbed it.) Butler would lighten that load by making plays of his own — Marvin, as we know, makes few plays — and would provide cover should Mike Bibby leave as a free agent. A team could make do with Flip Murray as its starting point guard if he has Johnson and Butler at 2 and 3.
This trade need not be a loss for the Wizards. In a city where he isn’t known mostly for not being Chris Paul, Williams still could develop into something more than a team’s fifth-best starter. (Not so long ago, he was considered the most gifted player of his draft class.) But it hasn’t panned out for him as a Hawk and, with Johnson and Smith and Al Horford ahead of him now, it won’t ever.
Butler would upgrade the Hawks at one of the two positions that could stand upgrading. The other is point guard, and that’s more problematic. Bibby, who’s an unrestricted free agent, might not want to play for half what he made last season and could well leave. (Law’s time here seems done.) Flip, whom the Hawks will surely re-sign, is best deployed as a scoring sixth man, not an orchestrator. That’s where the draft comes in.
There’s not a Paul or a Deron Williams to be had, but there are some promising guards who figure to be available at No. 19. Eric Maynor of VCU could be there. Patty Mills of St. Mary’s could be. And Ty Lawson of North Carolina, who seemed slotted to go in the lottery, has been dropping in the mock drafts. He could be there, too.
The Hawks are getting close to something good. They don’t need to be taking the long view now. Caron Butler will make $21 million over the next two seasons. That’s a reasonable price for the guy who could bring the Hawks that much closer to Orlando and Cleveland and Boston.
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333 comments Add your comment
Sautee
June 17th, 2009
3:09 pm
Mark,
Not bad, but the key flaw is the assumption that Flip is a point guard. He’s a #2 who CAN play point, but that’s a HUGE difference.
When Flip DOES play the point, it robs him of his natural aggressiveness on offense, and he seems, all too often, to get hung up in the lane and turn the ball over too much. When he plays the 2 he ATTACKS the rim, without necessarily looking to pass.
I’d rather see him off the bench as our Vinnie Johnson.
Now if we signed Jack or Sessions, I could be comfy with the idea.
Homer
June 17th, 2009
3:09 pm
FIRE BRADLEY!!
Rod from College Park
June 17th, 2009
3:12 pm
Mark,
You are exactly correct about your feelings for Marvin. I doubt that the Wizards would make that trade. Caron is an all-star caliber player and Marvin is nowhere close. Despite all the people who say Marvin has gotten better, his number are down from last year. Maybe there is some kind of new math, which says if your numbers are worse, you are better. I have been out of school a little while now. Now, you also have to wonder if he will always be injury prone, because he constantly falls to the ground trying to finish at the rim and play defense. A back problem does not just go away, see Tmac. If anybody actually thinks that Marvin Williams can defend Lebron James, I would really like to know what kind of drugs you take. Mark, your initial thought is correct. Out of all of our starters, Marvin is easily the most replaceable, and someone with the ability of Caron Butler would surely help us tremendously. If any of you Marvin supporters actually have any of the playoff games recorded, Cleveland actually did leave Marvin wide open, when he was on the floor, and he did not hit one jump shot. I did not see Lebron get nervous one time when Marvin was guarding him either. This thought that Marvin is a great defensive player is almost laughable. I already posted earlier in the year all the stats of all these great players he supposedly shut down this year, and the only one who was held under his season average against the Hawks was Carmelo. Granger, Durant, Wallace, Lebron, Caron, Iguodala, Pierce, Thorton…. all had higher scoring averages against us than their season averages. Stop making excuses for this guy, and base his game on what you have seen. In three years with the Hawks, Marvin has been a serviceable player and that’s it. I do not like Mike Woodson as a coach at all, but I do know that if Marvin was such a great player, a guy with his job on the line, would force the ball to him, just like he does to Josh.
Mychelfromatl
June 17th, 2009
3:20 pm
Terrell…I heard that Hawks and Warriors trade rumor yesterday also.
O'brien
June 17th, 2009
3:24 pm
Mark,
I only suggested Speedy because he is an expiring contract, and that might convince the Wizards to make the trade. With Arenas being injured, and Acie being injured too, they might not be convinced to go Marvin and Acie.
ladyhawk
June 17th, 2009
3:41 pm
I like the proposed trade Mark.I must admit i am a huge Marvin fan and i love his game when he is healthy.However Caron is a more polished player and a slightly better shooter and is more assertive than Marvin.If the Hawks were to acquire Butler and Javaris and resign Flip and Zaza sign a veteran point like Jack or Kidd maybe draft a big,we could challenge the big boys in the east.This trade makes more sense than trading Josh or J.J.,now that would be absurd.Also i would love to see the hawks replace Mike Woodson he is the worst coach I have ever seen.I agree 100 percent with you Mark if they trade Josh they lose me too.
nique
June 17th, 2009
4:02 pm
Would love to see Marvin for Caron. How would Acie rate in this year’s draft?
6ft1height
June 17th, 2009
4:31 pm
Wizards aren’t stupid. Why would you trade an allstar for someone that is developing on their game. It just doesn’t make sense. Also, with the SALARY problem, the Wizards could trade players. Because the free agent in 2010 is big, they could trde players whose contract is expiring next year.
Jay
June 17th, 2009
4:47 pm
Caron Butler? I understand that he is a good player, has good shooting range, can drive to the basket, brings a certain toughness to a team and he’s not afraid to take the last shot but:
1) trading Williams for a small forward with a similar game doesn’t make much sense.
2) Butler was more deferential than Williams when he played in Miami and L.A. and wasn’t the fifth offensive option.
3) Butler was the number one option in Washington last year. With Arenas returning, he may be willing to settle back into the number two offensive option role, but I doubt he would be very happy as Atlanta’s number five offensive option behind JJ, Smith, the PG (assuming either Bibby or Murray is re-signed to be the starting point guard) and Horford.
4) you always have to wonder about anyone who is traded in a one-for-one dea lfor Kwame Brown–I know that was a cheap shot but I couldn’t resist. The real #4 is trading Williams for Butler does not address the Hawks’ biggest problem–upgrading the bench.
You described Williams as the least essential starter and I have to wonder how you’ve arrived at that conclusion. Yes, JJ is the team’s star player and Smith is becoming one; which means they’re going to get the bulk of the shots. Since Bibby and Murray are more shooters than play-makers, it seems to me that Williams, as well as Horford, have chosen (or have been chosen by Coach Woodson) to subordinate their offense and focus on other areas like defense and rebounding. Was Tayshaun Prince the least essential starter on the Detroit championship teams because he and Ben Wallace focused on defense and rebounding while while Billups, Hamilton and R. Wallace did the lion’s share of the scoring? Williams strikes me as someone who does what the coach tells him to do and we all know that no team that has all five guys focusing on offense can ever be successful.
Here are a couple of thoughts on improving the team’s record without major personnel changes. 1) Remember how Dennis Rodman could dominate a game without even taking a shot? If Josh Smith, with his unique skill-set, could be convinced to pattern his game after Rodman, imagine how dominate he could be. He could lead the league in rebounding and easily score over twenty per game with ten to fourteen of those coming on putbacks and tap-ins alone; freeing Williams, and Horford, to become move up on the offensive option list.
What If JJ was allowed to operate on the low block instead of in pick-and-roll situations with Bibby at top of the key. First, with his size and strength, he would be a nightmare for any SG to defend one-on-one without fouling him. Second, his effectiveness would force other teams to double-team him; leading to open shots for everyone else.
Sorry to disagree with you Mark but if the Hawks want to take the next step and truly compete for a championship, swapping small forwards is not the answer. They must get a starting PG who is similar to Chauncey Billups yet affordable (Antonio Daniels, Jarrett Jack and Sergio Rodriguez come to mind) and build a bench with the type of veteran players (like Drew Gooden, Malik Rose, Flip Murray) that Coach Woodson will play.
Jay
June 17th, 2009
4:50 pm
Sorry, should have read “imagine how dominant (instead of dominate) Smith could be”
niremetal
June 17th, 2009
4:53 pm
All jokes aside, you wrote more about the Braves than the Hawks during the NBA regular season. I checked – you wrote about them 9 times during the entire regular season. The sum of your post does suggest to me that you didn’t really pay much attention to the Hawks except at the beginning of the season and during the playoffs. It’s ok to admit you don’t watch them that much. Just don’t make yourself sound like an expert on them when you pay more attention to the Braves’ offseason than you do to actual Hawks games.
niremetal
June 17th, 2009
5:00 pm
I’ll put it another way: You wrote more columns about the Braves between January 22 and February 24 (10) than about the Hawks between November 1 and April 16 (9).
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
5:03 pm
I’ve liked Caron Butler since his one season at Connecticut. I remember him almost beating the Maryland team that would win the NCAA title in the East final at Syracuse. I also remember there being an ice storm in Syracuse that weekend. I also remember having to drive to Rochester to fly out for economic reasons. I also remember buying a NorthFace hat to keep my ears from freezing and putting it on the expense report. (I wear the hat to this day — well, not today — and actually got reimbursed!)
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
5:05 pm
Jarrett Jack is a good player, but he’s no Billups. We’ll have to disagree on that point, Jay.
Off Season Chatter « Stotts Era
June 17th, 2009
5:23 pm
[...] Mark Bradley wants to swap Marvin for Caron Butler [...]
Hawks need to get the point -- and it's Rafer Alston | Jeff Schultz
June 17th, 2009
5:29 pm
[...] Read Mark Bradley’s view: Say goodbye to Marvin Williams, hello to Caron Butler [...]
BHayley
June 17th, 2009
5:46 pm
How can we have 8 owners yet they are broke? I thought these guys are millionaires
Ken Strickland
June 17th, 2009
6:39 pm
MARK BRADLEY-Marvin Williams isn’t the HC and he doesn’t design plays for himself, unfortunately. He’s an excellent jumpshooter, who can come of screens, yet Woodson hasn’t installed a single play that takes advantage of those skills. The few plays, or opportunities, that are called for him, usually involve him posting up and going one on one, or he’s the recipient of an open jumpshot.
Unfortunately, that is usually the case with JSmith and AHorford as well. Woodson’s OFF is guard oriented, and relies too much on isolations and one on one play, which is why JJohnson, MBibby and RMurray usually end up dominating the ball and the OFF.
You can’t have an effective OFF when you have too many players being aggressive and demanding the ball. I remember JJohnson complaining about having too many players trying to do their own thing and not playing enough team ball during the Celtic playoff series. Now you’re asking that Marvin Williams be traded because he won’t do more of what our star OFF player has complained about. Does that make sense to you?
It’s usually up to the head coach, and/or the PG to determine who gets the ball and how often, not each individual player. What you’re advocating is just as rediculous as those who advocate getting rid of JJohnson because they don’t think he takes charge enough, or doesn’t appear to be enough of a vocal leader.
If head coach Mike Woodson wanted more aggressiveness out of Marvin Williams, he’d incorporate him more into the OFF by designing and calling more plays for him. Do you remember when we played the Sonics in Seattle, Marvins home town, and Woodson and his teammates featured him in the OFF? Do you remember the outstanding all around gm he had? Marvin Wiiliams is a team player, and he’s working within the confines of our guard oriented OFF. He’s doing exactly what he feels Woodson expects of him.
IF YOU WANT MORE FROM MARVIN WILLIAMS, YOU DON’T TRADE HIM, YOU GET HEAD COACH MIKE WOODSON TO INCORPORATE HIM MORE INTO HIS OFF.
Big Ray
June 17th, 2009
6:43 pm
Mark,
I love these blogs. A subject like this always stirs the masses, and people pick sides quickly. Heh!
Every time Marvin Williams is compared to a player that produces more, the common refrain is that Marvin is going to be better than that other person. I’d love to agree, but the kid is just not showing it. Players who don’t show initiative just don’t end up being that good. I understand that Woody doesn’t know how to get the maximum out of ANYBODY on this roster.
But Marvin just keeps on deferring. Perhaps as Niremetal has suggested in other blogs, Marvin works better as a super sixth man- ala Lamar Odom or to a lesser extent, Charlie Villanueva.
Still doesn’t explain how some of us swear that someday soon we’re going to see the awesome-ness of our highest pick in the last decade or so (#2), while our #17 pick continues to outperform him despite being dumb, lazy, retarded, or whatever other derogatory adjective that half the Atlanta Hawks fan base wants to use to descripe him.
“Give Marvin the same number of shots Josh gets, and he’ll score 20 points a game.”
Uh, no. Not unless you can CONVINCE him to actually take those shots. Then you might be getting somewhere. Ever think that maybe Josh takes so many shots because Marvin WON’T, JJ is being triple-teamed (remember, this happens every time he touches the ball, on every play, in every game…heh..), Bibby can’t get an open look, and Horford’s already had his Woody-governed quota of 6 shots for the evening. No, seriously.
Here’s another good one: “Marvin’s our best perimeter defender.”
I’ll give credit to Marvin for improving his defense from “matador” to “can hold his own, and now uses his length to bother people on occasion.” But if you really think he’s our best perimeter defender, then what does that say about our three veteran guards? That’s right. Marvin is not a top notch defender. He MIGHT be better than average (he’s not consistent on defense yet). But if he’s the best we have on the perimeter, then you may as well go ahead and say that JJ, Bibby, and Flip suck. Mo Evans, too. Still proud that our best perimeter defender is a 6′9″ 245 lb forward who walks like an old cripple (sorry Marvin, love ya , but even “Snapper” Jones thinks so, and that dude is probably in his 60s. I’ll never forget him commentating during one of the regular season games, and asking, “How old IS that boy?”).
Anyway, Marvin is a good guy, and a good role player. He clearly has talent. Perhaps it takes a different kind of coach to light a fire under his arse, but then maybe he’s just passive for the most part. I don’t know. Give him Josh’s drive/attitude/intensity/desire, and you DO have a 20ppg scorer.
Besides age, that’s what truly separates Marvin from Caron. Well, that and about 7 points a game….
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
6:45 pm
Thanks, Big Ray. Your insight is always appreciated.
Big Ray
June 17th, 2009
7:01 pm
Ken Strickland,
A word on Joe Johnson.
For someone who doesn’t like to be very vocal, he sure has no problems backing a transit bus right over his teammates. I recall him saying that some guys were trying to do too much.
Wait a minute. I’m confused. Joe says other guys are trying to do too much, yet he was also the guy hollering for veterans. He got ‘em.
Meanwhile, JJ supporters (and anybody who watches the games) agrees that he gets asked to do too much. And last I looked, nobody had the ball in their hands NEARLY as much as HE did. And I also recall him saying he WANTED the ball in his hands.
I’ll never understand how this works, except to say that Woody is most certainly PART of the problem. This is why the Hawks are inconsistent:
1)Woody. Need I say more?
2)Joe Johnson gets asked to do to much. He doesn’t have enough help out there. It really is true, in a way. Oh, the help might be there, but nobody really knows that.
3)Josh tries to do too much. Check that. He tries to do too many of the things that he’s not as good at as others are, and not always enough of the things he IS good at. Classic examples: Our pgs typically don’t run the break. Josh tries. Guys like Marvin don’t shoot the jumper enough. Josh tries.
4)Joe is complaining about people doing too much, but he’s the one who has the ball in his hands the most….by a WIDE margin. He’s also known for pounding the ball for large chunks of the shot clock, trying to figure out how to dribble past two defenders for a shot he might like.
5)Linked to point #4- Woody’s offense includes everybody standing around while Joe looks for the help. You know…the help that is out there trying to do too much….while it’s standing still watching Joe dribble the ball…while Joe looks for the help…oh, you get it by now.
6)Another facet of Woody’s offense- First half: give the ball to Horford and Williams, and watch them score with impunity. Second half: take the ball away and give it to JJ and Bibby. Meanwhile, Josh will keep trying to make up for the “lack of production” from Horford and Williams, while JJ tries shooting over two defenders (I’m sorry…three), and Bibby waits for an open look.
7)Our team defense doesn’t exist for long stretches during games. Remember, Marvin is our best perimeter defender. That should explain A LOT, shouldn’t it? And for those of you who want to blame Josh for the defense, he can’t carry the defense anymore than Joe can carry the offense. Oh yes, sauce for the gander is sauce for the other gander, no matter the flavor of the soup…
8)Woody has a clipboard/marker board. Somebody take that away. NOW.
Sautee
June 17th, 2009
7:07 pm
Ray,
WORD!
Big Ray
June 17th, 2009
7:08 pm
Ken Strickland,
Another word on Marvin. He reminds me too much of Calbert Cheaney, though more talented by a decent margin. Perfectly coachable, but largely unnoticeable in games. Steady as a rock, but not an ounce of dynamics. I agree that he is playing within the confines of the nightmare that is Woody’s offense, but he has to break free somehow. Seriously.
Josh does, and it doesn’t always work out, but sometimes it does. Imagine if Marvin did it?
Mark,
I’m not entirely sure I agree that Law has more upside than Crittendon. I mean, I’m not saying your wrong, but I guess I’m looking at him differently. Neither guy is a “great” shooter, but both can hit shots. I’m thinking Crittendon has a bit more range. I think Law is the better guy when it comes to being an actual, more traditional point guard. Crittendon on the other hand, is more apt to be able to play the PG or SG spot, I think.
How does that translate to who has more upside? I don’t know. But I can say this: neither guy has been in an ideal situation by far, and poor Crittendon is on his third team already. Law has at least been with one team and one coach. Not that this has been a GOOD thing, mind you…
Big Ray
June 17th, 2009
7:23 pm
Mark,
Thanks. Glad to be appreciated, or at least tolerated.
jdewayneatl
June 17th, 2009
7:34 pm
Oh Yeah: Who the heck really think that Gortat is the Center the Hawks need. ZAZA is pretty much the same player but better. Gortat is a better defender but has no offensive game except for catching passes and dunking because he was hella open after the opposing team left him. Gortat? Really?
That leads me to my next point. Horford is not the traditional sized Center but he could play the position. Al Horford can play the Center position for this team. He has held his own and played like a man in his brief career. He is 6′10” and 245 lbs. If Nene (6′11” and 250), Amare Staudamire (6′10” and 249), Emeka Okafor (6′10” and 255), Kendrick Perkins (6′10” and 280), Sam Dalembert (6′10” and 250), Troy Murphy (6′ll” and 245), Andris Biedrins (6′ll and 240) can all play the center position, well then Al Horford can play Center for the Hawks. Even Ben Wallace (6′9” and 240) has played much of his career at the 5 spot including 2004 when he won a Championship with Detroit. He probably wont grow an inch but I’m sure he’ll come into next season with atleast an extra 5-10 lbs.
There’s only a hand full of Centers in the league that may give Horford problems but at the same time those hand full of Centers gives headaches match-up problems throughout the league. That hand full of centers would include Dwight Howard, Yao Ming, Pau Gasol and Shaq.
So before suggesting to trade one of the core players for a Center, his name better be Howard, Ming, or Gasol. And we know that that’s not gonna happen. Hawks fans stop WHINNING!!!!!
GO HAWKS!!!!!
truth-serum
June 17th, 2009
7:37 pm
Marvin Williams is a very good player who enter the pros after 1 year of college. He is much better than Schutlz the hate master or Mo dumb Bradley. He averaged More rebounds than Pachulia, the slowest man with the shortest vertical leap in the NBA.
Shultz and Bradley have the basketball wisdom of a hillbilly and yet they try to describe the terms of the Hawks Growth. Lets trade Schultz and Bradley for… a second round pick…Do you think we’d get any taker?
Marvin William will be a star in this league and gets to the line better than anybody on the team, and suddenly better than Bradley and Schultz who bring nothing but narrow racist views to the table.
truth-serum
June 17th, 2009
7:57 pm
jdewayneatl
June 17th, 2009
7:34 pm
Marvin Williams got more rebounds this year than ZAZA the continuing turnover! And Marvin is a 2/3. HAWKS DEFINITELY NEED A CENTER.
The reason Horford is not a “traditionally sized center” is he is a powerforward…Dah. He almost broke his ankle last year trying to drive on a real center.
If we follow the strategy of Mo dumb bradley, we wont get a center, will trade marvin, draft another rumiel robinson, wear down our powerforward until hes injury prone, while the guy we hired to start at center sits on the bench because he cant run,jump,block or alter shots. With this Brilliant stratergy from Mo dumb Bradley and Jeff, head dragon of the bubba crew, the hawks would not get out of the first round of the play offs and they would set woodson up to be their fall guy.
Any NBA powerforward can give you “MINUTES” at the center position but not a career. There is no soundness Mo dumb and Bubba’s view. NO TEAM GET TO THE FINALS WITH OUT AN ATHLETIC CENTER. THE HAWKS WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY TO WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP WITH THIS TALENTED CREW IS ABOUT 5 YEARS. THEN IT GOES THE WAY OF THE DALLAS MAVERICKS AND THE PHOENIX SUNS… NICE TEAMS BUT NOT CHAMPIONSHIP MATERIAL…
GET A CENTER!!
truth-serum
June 17th, 2009
8:18 pm
Homer
June 17th, 2009
3:09 pm
FIRE BRADLEY!!
Let me second the call for Bradley firing. Take ken and barbee…I mean ken and ray with you.
O'brien
June 17th, 2009
8:40 pm
As long as Woody is the coach, we will never know just how good a team we can be.
How good would Horford or Josh be if we played inside out? We don’t know.
How good would Acie be if he got consistent PT? We don’t know.
How good would Marvin be if Woody ran some plays for him? We don’t know.
How good would JJ be if he didnt play 40 mpg, and if he wasnt forced to guard Bibby’s guy quite often? We don’t know.
Why, because of Woodson. That, we do know.
Sautee
June 17th, 2009
8:42 pm
“Any NBA powerforward can give you “MINUTES” at the center position but not a career.”
Ummm, Ben Wallace? Dave Cowens? Wes Unseld?
Sautee
June 17th, 2009
8:57 pm
O’brien
Quite true
jdewayneatl
June 17th, 2009
9:13 pm
truth-serum
June 17th, 2009
8:18 pm
So Horfords a “PF?” True, Horford fits the PF position well. But so would ALL of the players I Iisted and there’s more. Those players (Staudamire, Nene, Okafur, Perkins, and so on) are all starters, I didn’t get to the bench players who are of similar size of Horford. I guarantee you that you will find more Centers who have “PF bodies” than you would a legit 7-footer who’s much better than Horford or any of those other “PF’s” who play at the position.
The fact remains that the only way to get a legitimate starting C is to draft one. Teams don’t give up legit 7-footers with any type of upside. The Lakers labeled Andrew Bynum “untouchable” after proving he could play half a season. Do some homework and tell me how many legit 7-foot all-star caliber centers have changed teams in their prime in the last 20 years. I can name 2 off top if you count Alonzo Morning. The other is Shaq.
Everyone talks about getting a Center but can anyone suggest a Center that would make the Hawks starting frontline better. And not a wish upon a star… suggest one that they Hawks actually have an opportunity to get.
I’ll start. How about Eric Dampier? Wait, wait, I have one… Zydrunas Ilgauskus. No,no… How about Brendan Heywood? Andrew Bogut (the #1 pick in the Chris Paul draft is doing great in Milwaukee – let’s trade Josh Smith for Bogut. David Lee is a Double Double guy, but wait that’s another “PF” playing Center. I’m sorry. Come to think about it Marvin wasn’t the only pick the Hawks gaffed on. To draft Horford over the dominant Hawes is inexplicable. I don’t know… maybe I’m not doing a good job. Can anyone help me?
jdewayneatl
June 17th, 2009
9:20 pm
Oh yeah… I’d very much rather be the Mavericks and Suns over the 6 or 7 years than what the Hawks have been over the past decade except for this past season.
glw
June 17th, 2009
9:27 pm
jdewayneatl,
I agree with you too. I get tired of hearing all these people say we need a Center. Horford is more than capable of manning significant minutes at the Center. And like you said there are only a handful of Centers that gives him problems and they are the same ones that gives everyone else problems. If we got someone that can give us 15-20 minutes of tough physical play at the 5 in relief of Horford, then I am fine….Zaza, Gortat, whomever it is. Im fine. Im more interested in the point guard and who is going to play there.
darrell starks
June 17th, 2009
10:09 pm
glw i agree with you to why do people always get caught up in to the player height dennis rodman charles barkley mosses malone wes unsel it not the height of a person its how you position your self and nowing how to box out when it come to rebounding.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
10:15 pm
One other thing about Al Horford: He can score some points at center. I’m not sure he’d score much at power forward. He’s better with his back to the goal than he is facing up and shooting jumpers. And if you paired a non-scoring center — Hasheem Thabeet, say — with Horford at power forward … well, you wouldn’t have much in the way of post offense.
RealSquawk
June 17th, 2009
10:43 pm
niremetal,
thank-you
I still don’t understand why people can’t see that Marvin is the guy you keep. You don’t trade away people improve something like he did over the summer, you don’t trade away someone who plays his role Mike Woodson asks for 15 to 16 and thats what you get. When he asked for 20 plus even though it was only needed twice you got the 20 plus and you got it in a more productive way then Joe.
Come on Josh Smith vs. Marvin Williams. One gets you out of your seat and the other plays basketball. One has a focus issue the other always comes to play shot going down or not. They both graduated the same year from high school one has been in the league a year longer, but who is more solid of a basketball player??? Who has the pass four summers working on his dribbling and his jump shot and his post moves with NBA stars? And who spent a summer working on his three point range? Who came back with those skill improved? Who has potential?
Ill say it again why trade either? But if you are going to trade someone please make it the person who can get us something that will get us out of the semi finals. Caron however so exciting isn’t going to get it done. Cause guess what? We got a small forward and guess what he is young? Wait isn’t that reason you all still have hope for Josh.
Do we go by age or years in the league. Because I thought years in the league were more important, but somebody knows how to play a season with a little consistency and someone knows how to come to play.
You want to talk about potential? Let’s look at it like this. One guy we are hoping can bring it all together (we fail to mention he has no post game, he can’t dribble, he doesn’t listen, and he makes bad decisions) that’s a lot to put together. And the other well the other lets see hmmm. needs to be more assertive? Or do you mean he needs to be more exciting? Think about it before you answer?
Assertive adjustment vs. learning how to play basketball.
By the way when you say someone needs to be more assertive you are saying they got the tools lets get him the ball more( something not in his control unless he wants to whine and pout like a little Smi I mean kid) .Period. When you say you are waiting for someone to get some post moves learn not to dribble up the court which i completely blame on the Antione Walker experiment and come to play or at least bring something to table every game it’s not a question of who you keep. Its a question of how long do you give the other guy?
Trade Marvin for what? ????????
And just going off PER I don’t like using stats, but I will through this one out there
Josh SMith for his position 19
Marvin Williams for his 13
If you take out the guys who played less than 60 games Josh moves to 15
Marvin Williams moves to 9
Just a stat or culmination of efficiency.
and MArk i was serious about you coming up with some grand trade Josh Smith scenario. It would be so much more relevant. Trade MArvin what are you trying to do take the heat off you boy?
MARVIN TRADE MARVIN?
dusty
June 17th, 2009
10:47 pm
Hard to even bother with articles like this. Why would the Wizards want to get younger?
The AJC needs to stop it with their columnists writing about the NBA. None of those guys seem to have any sort of reasonable grasp of what is going on with the Hawks or the rest of the league for that matter.
cory
June 17th, 2009
10:50 pm
Marvin has shown that he can score at will and defend some of the best scorers in the league. no one on this team is a better defender. he average over 30 pts with joe out of the game. that shouldve been a sign to woody. the only reason i would go along with trading marvin or even josh is to see how much they would punish woody for never playing through the whole talented team. acie has to go or he’ll never play. woody is a horrible coach. this team couldve easily been in the top 3 teams in the east, if it werent for him. he has held this team back for 2 long. does anybody know where avery johnson is? i havent anything about him since he was fired. i think the hawks would do well under him? opinions?
cory
June 17th, 2009
10:56 pm
i also have to agree w realsquawk. very valid points. i would willingly trade josh before marvin
niremetal
June 17th, 2009
11:22 pm
To be honest, I’m terrified to see what happens if either Josh or Marvin leaves town and lands with a coach who knows how to maximize their unique skill sets. Marvin held LeBron to 16 points during the 35 minutes he was in the game against him in February. When he went to the bench, LeBron racked up 10 points in 4 minutes. When JJ went down with the flu while the Heat were nipping at our heels in the standings, Marvin led us to two wins on the road. But as soon as JJ came back, Marvin was relegated to being a spot-up shooter waiting on the perimeter.
And don’t get me started on Josh. He’s a player who is unstoppable when he gets the ball in motion anywhere within 12 feet of the basket, but on 80% or more of our plays, Woody has him standing still 25 feet away from the basket.
As I said, I’m terrified to see what’ll happen if either of them goes. They’d make us forget all about how badly we misused Diaw…
chris warr
June 17th, 2009
11:22 pm
keep marvin, we need size!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! , like a center. The Bulls have a big backup center that would be perfect. Aaron Gray I think is his name. Also we need our point guards to play some d. Bibby has slow foot speed, although if you loose him he our best 3 point shooter.
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
11:26 pm
I feel your angst, Nire. But I just don’t think Marvin Williams will ever be selfish enough — in a good way — to be an All-Star. It’s just not in his makeup.
Rufus1
June 17th, 2009
11:41 pm
I don’t want to trade Josh, Marvin or AL until we get a new coach, but someone has to go.
WILL ANY OF YOU JOSH SUPPORTERS GIVE ONE TANGIBLE IMPROVEMENT IN HIS GAME, OVER THE PAST 5 YEARS….JUST ONE!!!!!!
Jody
June 17th, 2009
11:44 pm
Mark,
The fact that Horford is a back to the basket player is exactly why you play him at the four. Watch the games and see the varying degrees of difficulty for Horford trying to back down bigger guys as oppossed to guys who are his size or smaller. It’s not always about Horford is a better player than this guy or that guy. Size and length has A LOT to do with it. Just ask Dwight Howard if the size of Bynum and Gasol (who a bigger but not as good as Howard) didn’t matter.
On another note, it’ll be interesting to see what the Hawks do come draft time. I don’t buy the rumors about Josh Smith at all. I just think some so called journalists may have an axe to grind.
The Truth
June 17th, 2009
11:45 pm
All this talk about trading Marvin for Butler, I still think Charlie V @ SF would be more doable because he may become available. Charlie V gives you offense with length. Like Hedo, he would be a match-up problem, big-time, for most SF defender. He would bring balance to our tweener frontline because of his length. Based on the playoff results, we need to be getting longer not shorter. This Butler trade is just a fantasy anyway; it won’t happen. Nice try Mark.
truth-serum
June 17th, 2009
11:45 pm
2009 PLAYOFFS
Player G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF TOT APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
Al Horford 9 9 28.0 .424 .000 .667 1.30 4.40 5.80 2.0 .67 .67 .44 2.90 6.9
THIS IS NOT A STARTING CENTER. IM SORRY.
truth-serum
June 17th, 2009
11:51 pm
chris warr
June 17th, 2009
11:22 pm
DITTO ON GREY. THE YOUNG MAN IS IMPOSING AND WILL ONLY GET BETTER AND IS A NATURAL CENTER!
O'brien
June 17th, 2009
11:56 pm
Think about this. How hard would it be to get a small forward to put up the kind of numbers Marvin puts up? 14 ppg,6.3 rpg, in 34 mpg. I think it’s easy to find productive wings, and those numbers are replaceable.
Whereas with Josh, his numbers are not jaw-dropping, but he still has the potential to be an All-Star. Does anybody think Marvin has all-star potential?
If Josh gets his head straight, he can be an impact player (offense and defense). Marvin is not an impact player. He is a solid role player, and for a guy who was picked #2 in the draft, he needs to be more than a solid role player.
O'brien
June 17th, 2009
11:58 pm
The Truth,
I like Charlie V coming off the bench (he can provide some backup minutes at PF and SF), but he will probably cost $5-$6 mil. Can the Hawks afford him? Will Milwaukee let him go (he is a restricted FA)?