Face Off: Say goodbye to Marvin, hello to Caron Butler
Read Jeff Schultz’s view: Hawks need to get the point — and it’s Rafer Alston
Marvin Williams is the least essential Hawks starter. He scores points and takes rebounds but seems to leave no imprint on games, and one of the reasons Joe Johnson gets the ball with three seconds on the shot clock — or, worse, Josh Smith gets it 25 feet from the hoop — is that Marvin, four years a pro, still won’t assert himself.
I want to see Marvin not assert himself elsewhere next season. I want the Hawks to re-sign him — he’s a restricted free agent — and ship him and Acie Law to Washington for Caron Butler and Javaris Crittenton. The Wizards are looking to cut salary, so that part would work for them, and they’re also looking to get younger. Williams turns 23 on Friday; Butler is 29. (See ajc.com photo gallery.)
Butler is a small forward with deep range and — key point — a ton of self-assurance. He wants the ball when the clock’s ticking low. He averaged 20.8 points, 6.2 rebounds and 4.3 assists last season to Marvin’s 13.9, 6.3 and 1.3.
My biggest complaint has been that too much of the Hawks’ offense begins and ends with Johnson. (”Iso-Joe,” as clever bloggers have dubbed it.) Butler would lighten that load by making plays of his own — Marvin, as we know, makes few plays — and would provide cover should Mike Bibby leave as a free agent. A team could make do with Flip Murray as its starting point guard if he has Johnson and Butler at 2 and 3.
This trade need not be a loss for the Wizards. In a city where he isn’t known mostly for not being Chris Paul, Williams still could develop into something more than a team’s fifth-best starter. (Not so long ago, he was considered the most gifted player of his draft class.) But it hasn’t panned out for him as a Hawk and, with Johnson and Smith and Al Horford ahead of him now, it won’t ever.
Butler would upgrade the Hawks at one of the two positions that could stand upgrading. The other is point guard, and that’s more problematic. Bibby, who’s an unrestricted free agent, might not want to play for half what he made last season and could well leave. (Law’s time here seems done.) Flip, whom the Hawks will surely re-sign, is best deployed as a scoring sixth man, not an orchestrator. That’s where the draft comes in.
There’s not a Paul or a Deron Williams to be had, but there are some promising guards who figure to be available at No. 19. Eric Maynor of VCU could be there. Patty Mills of St. Mary’s could be. And Ty Lawson of North Carolina, who seemed slotted to go in the lottery, has been dropping in the mock drafts. He could be there, too.
The Hawks are getting close to something good. They don’t need to be taking the long view now. Caron Butler will make $21 million over the next two seasons. That’s a reasonable price for the guy who could bring the Hawks that much closer to Orlando and Cleveland and Boston.
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
333 comments Add your comment
niremetal
June 17th, 2009
12:32 pm
Um. How would that trade cut any payroll for the Wizards? At all? You do realize that NBA salaries have to roughly match in trades where both teams are over the cap, right? And that a sign-and-trade with Marvin would mean the Wizards would be taking back a guy with a new 4-5 year contract while Butler has just two years left on his?
niremetal
June 17th, 2009
12:34 pm
And having lived in DC for the past couple years and seen many Wizards games, I can tell you that Caron Butler is not close to as good as you make him sound. Not remotely.
darrell starks
June 17th, 2009
12:35 pm
Why do you say horford marvin and the 19th pick is to much for bosh specially if chill come back.
STARTERS ACIE, JOE, CHILL, JOSH, BOSH,
BENCH FLIP, MOE, HAKIM WARRICK, CHARLIE V. ZAZA
RESERVE SOLO, WEST
TEAM PAYROLL 75MILL
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!
niremetal
June 17th, 2009
12:37 pm
And ABSOLUTELY co-sign Aaron.
Dan
June 17th, 2009
12:39 pm
I say trade Marvin if it gives us a chance to select Hasheem Thabeet.
Put Hasheem at center, move Horford to Power Forward and Josh Smith to Small Forward what a great defense that would make…Then draft Ty Lawson with our pick….We could also sign either Bibby, Jamal Crawford, Jarrett Jack or Andre Miller to play point
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
12:41 pm
I understand a lot of people see Marvin Williams in a more favorable light than I do. (And I have nothing against him personally. He has always been very accommodating.) But I had the same question about him as a UNC freshman that I do as a four-year pro: Why is he so deferential to other players?
I also know a lot of folks fault Josh Smith for trying to do too much. Better that than too little, I say.
Rufus1
June 17th, 2009
12:42 pm
Sam
I completely agree with you about Marvin..Some people have DUNK fever. Why doesn’t Marvin have just as much UPSIDE as Josh. No body would give Marvin wide open Jump shots. What about the 3 he hit against Boston. He one of the few people who can guard Lebron, Rasard, Hedu and Paul Pierce.
You don’t trade a 23 year old, 6′9, 240lb sf, who can hit the 3. His is extremly efficient and has a very good jump shot and he plays very good defense.
MARVIN WILLIAMS IS THE SAME HEIGHT AND WEIGHT, CAN SHOT AND GUARD THE 3 OR 4 POSTION….WHY WOULD YOU TRADE HIM.
PS…FIRE WOODY
MJ3
June 17th, 2009
12:42 pm
Man wat the hell you talkin bout trading marvin for Caron? Didnt you watch any games at all this year before marv got hurt? Marvin is already as good a defender as caron, a better outside shooter, and isnt afraid to take it to the rim.
You talk bout him not being assertive. how the hell is he suposed to be assertive in woody’s offense, where all he ever is told to do is stand on the perimeter and wait for a bailout pass? do you actually blame MARVIN for WOODY’S offense? seriously, i want to know.
TP
June 17th, 2009
12:45 pm
Great post Mark. Quite simply, I think Horford is the only untouchable on this roster (Josh Smith a close second). I know it’s more complicated than this, but if I were Rick Sund, I’d have a hard time turning down a mutually fair trade for any other player. I’d take Butler in a hearbeat, as well as take my chances with Crittenton (though I do think Law and Flip would make for a nice PG pairing).
Regarding Marvin, I think he’d be the next Robert Horry, if he landed on the right team. Rather than be the star of the show, he could grab a few rebounds, play minimal D and hang out at the 3-point line. Perhaps the Cavaliers would be a good fit.
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
12:50 pm
TP, that’s a good comparison. But I’d offer one bit of contrast: Horry was never deferential, not even at Alabama. (As I recall, he kept getting technical fouls.) I’m just not sure boldness is in Marvin’s DNA.
Chris
June 17th, 2009
12:52 pm
I feel like I’ve seen this Acie story before. Didn’t Coach Woody ruin another scoring point guards career that the team drafted? Oh yeah, Salim Stoudamire. Acie doesn’t even come close to the same player he was in college, and I’m betting it has something to do with lack of minutes and a coach telling him he’s not supposed to shoot in this league. I fear taking another PG later in the draft. He’ll do nothing but ride the bench with an Adam Morrison type look on his face. I’m not even sure that Woody would let J-Critt play once he got here, so really our only option is Andre Miller or Mike Bibby.
Can someone please explain to me the benefit of not having set plays? I don’t understand why our offense is run like they’re playing a pickup game.
Rufus1
June 17th, 2009
12:53 pm
Aaron
Co-sign
Darrin "The Vent King"
June 17th, 2009
12:55 pm
So far I like both you and Schultz’s ideals today- trade to get R Alston and trade Marvin Williams (heck for anybody!) for C Butler. Those two pieces along with what we have (minus the coach of course) would be a great idea and a step forward in the right direction. Get a center (maybe the Polish backup from Orlando), move Al Horford to his natural 4, J-Smoove to the 3 and a new coach with a different philosophy and we might have something…
Rufus1
June 17th, 2009
12:59 pm
JOSH SMITH CAN’T PLAY 3, HE CAN’T GUARD SF OR SHOT. NAME ONE OTHER SF WHO CAN’T HIT A WIDEOPEN JUMP SHOT.
Mash
June 17th, 2009
1:00 pm
Mark, I like the Marvin for Butler trade idea. However, I’m not sure Washington would do it. Say we opt to not sign Bibby for financial reasons, do you think we could coax the Bulls into taking Marvin for Hinrich (plus a draft pick or some marginal player). The Bulls are going to have unload Hinrich, right?
What do you think?
Hedo Fan
June 17th, 2009
1:00 pm
Gortat and Alston would both be fine additions from Orlando, but Turkoglu is the key guy we need to sign. He can shoot, handle the ball and penetrate. Take Bibby’s $15M and give it to Hedo. He could even bring the ball up if Acie didn’t pan out. Hedo also makes Marvin expendable in a trade. This is a no brainer.
Chris
June 17th, 2009
1:02 pm
Also, maybe throwing around Al Horford to see if anyone takes a bite wouldn’t be a bad idea. His numbers from his rooke year and sophomore year are practically identical (’07-’08: 10.1pts, 9.7reb, 0.9blks, 81 games) (’08-’09: 11.5pts, 9.3reb, 1.4blks, 67 games). I don’t know if he’s really going to get much better than that. If it’s the Celtics, Cavs, and Magic we’re trying to catch up to, he can’t hold his own against any of those teams in my opinion.
richbrave
June 17th, 2009
1:10 pm
J-CRIT is a playa’ and will prove it over the course of saying good-bye and thanks for the memories to the ghost of AGENT ZERO. He’s going no-where, but would be a great pick-up for the HAWKS. Now, BUTLER might be had, but MARVIN would not be what the WIZ need. In my estimation they need to get tough on the inside and play defense at the #’s 4 and 5. Nothing less. PACHULIA might be able to get some PT by moving McGEE to the #4 where he belongs. JAMISON to #3 playing alongside DOM McGUIRE to take BUTLER’s place. Just no place for MARVIN.
TP
June 17th, 2009
1:11 pm
Great point – I remember also Horry was on the Hawks radar, but we obviously drafted someone else. I can’t for the life of me remember who that was. That SF from Duke (not named Shelden) who also went to Saint Joe’s?
If he does stick around, I suggest playing mind games with him. Let Woody publicly criticize him. Or, you can proclaim to the world that “he’s the man” now and will be expected to take x number of shots. Make him play in the Summer League again. It may seem wacky, but I’d like to see how he plays when he’s ticked off.
tmac
June 17th, 2009
1:13 pm
I agree that Marvin needs to go.
I only wish anyone would agree to a trade like this.
tim
June 17th, 2009
1:14 pm
why dont the hawks this yars number oen draft pick and next years number one pick and trade them to try ot get in the top ten lottery this year, and he money they would save by trading next years pick would help for big free agents next year.
tim
June 17th, 2009
1:18 pm
why dont the hawks this years number one draft pick and next years number one pick and trade them to try and get in the top ten lottery this year, and the money they would save by trading next years pick would help for big free agents next year.
Daniel
June 17th, 2009
1:18 pm
I love the trade idea Mark, but along with alot of others on here do not see the feasability. But, hey who knows. I still like the idea of trading Josh Smith for Chris Bosh(with contract extension). Then work the team from there.
F.I.L.A
June 17th, 2009
1:18 pm
Mr.Bradly you are wrong about marvin williams..He scores 13 ppg as the 4th option and still doesnt have any plans ran for him..2-3 years from now if we trade marvin we will regret it..
jpmoney
June 17th, 2009
1:21 pm
you are an idiot…Marvin is essential to this team moving forward. His natural growth will make him much better than Butler. Please let people who know basketball write about basketball.
ray
June 17th, 2009
1:24 pm
Mark– This is a really good trade proposal. And I have a little bit of confidence that Sund could make it happen.
If Bibby leaves as a free agent, though, they probably would need to find a veteran free agent – not sure Flip could cut it as an 82 game starter.
Marv does need to go – he’s the weak link in the starting lineup.
Often Disappointed/Never Surprised!
June 17th, 2009
1:24 pm
Any organization in need of a Center (Low-Post) must consider Orlando’s back-up. In fact, had Van-Dummy played him along side Howard morem, they would have fared a whole lot better. Somebody please help me understand why Patrick Ewing (Jumpshooting Center) is training Dwight Howard, a Low Post center. Does anyone else remember the 80’s playoffs when Ewing choked and caused his team to be eliminated by choosing to finger-roll rather than dunk with both hands?
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
1:28 pm
I think you mean Roshown McLeod, TP. (Who used to live in my neighborhood, by the way.) He was the Hawks’ No. 1 pick in 1998. Horry was already a pro by then.
Tyger
June 17th, 2009
1:29 pm
The Hawks are soooo dumb that…._________________________________ u fill in the blank.
Mark Bradley is soooo dumb that… ________________________________ u fill in the blank.
RealSquawk
June 17th, 2009
1:44 pm
You couldn’t come up with a trade scenario for Josh Smith?
You just got to hate on the guy putting out this trade scenario, which I will admit I would execute on despite how much I like Marvin, but I would need a future first round pick for it.
Again I ask why not come up with A trade scenario for Josh SMith it would be more relevant and it would cause a bigger commotion.
Don’t trade Marvin because he is out BEST PERIMETER DEFENDER AND ONE OF THE BEST IN THE LEAGUE. DON’T TRADE HIM FOR THE SAME REASON YOU DIDN’T PUT UP A BLOG “JOSH FOR AMARE,” BECAUSE HE IS YOUNG AND A YEAR AWAY. DONT TRADE HIM BECAUSE HE WILL BE OUR BEST THREE POINT SHOOTER NEXT YEAR.
Sam Wetherson
June 17th, 2009
1:45 pm
AGAIN ANYONE THAT ACTUALLY WATCHES THE HAWKS AND KNOWS BASKETBALL KNOW THAT MARVIN WILLIAMS IS A KEEPER. WOODY NEEDS TO SPREAD THE WEALTH AND STOP LETTING JJ AND BIBBY HOG THE BALL. 43% OF MARVIN’S SHOTS THIS SEASON WERE WITH 6 SECONDS OR LESS LEFT ON THE CLOCK. YOU GUYS HAVE LET ESPN HIGHLIGHTS INFLUENCE WHO YOU THINK IS GOOD AND WHO ISN’T.
FOR THE 100TH TIME–JOSH SMITH CAN’T PLAY THE 3 SPOT BUT MARVIN CAN PLAY THE 4. OUR BEST LINEUP THIS SEASON WAS BIBBY-FLIP-JJ-MARVIN-HORF!!
Sam Wetherson
June 17th, 2009
1:49 pm
*Completing this thought, Marvin was clearly comfortable asserting himself in Johnson’s absence on two occasions last season to beneficial effect for the club.
Thus, the difference between Butler and Williams is largely one of opportunity. Their career efficiency stats:
Name eFG% TS% 2PTFG 3PTFG AST% TO% OR% DR%
Butler 46.3 52.6 46.1 31.6 14.8 12.7 5.4 13.8
Williams 46.5 53.6 46.5 30.4 7.5 11.0 5.7 14.9
Outside of Butler’s far superior assist rate, there’s little differentiating these two per opportunity. Considering the possibility that, at 22, Marvin Williams 2008-09 three-point shooting (35.5% in 155 attempts) represents a new level of true talent where Butler, who has made less than 32% of his threes in five of seven NBA seasons (including two of his four in Washington) through the age of 28, is unlikely to improve to a similar degree in that respect and that Williams’ FT Rate is significantly better than Butler’s (34.6 v. 27.7) despite Butler’s excellent free throw percentage (85.2% for his career) it’s fair, I contend, to assume that Williams is more likely to score efficiently going forward even before accounting the circumstances* in which they compiled their numbers to date.
*Butler as a key component of Eddie Jordan’s motion offense; Williams as an afterthought in Mike Woodson’s motionless offense.
The difference between the two is opportunity. Again, career stats for both:
Name FGA/36 FTA/36 USG% PTS/36
Butler 13.7 4.5 22.7% 19.4
Williams 11.1 4.8 18.9% 14.5
Personally, I’d prefer the younger guy who gets to the free throw line more often, is a better rebounder, and has greater range better to complement the two young frontcourt players (Al Horford and Josh Smith*) who need more touches in the post. Which isn’t to say that it’s vital the Hawks keep Marvin Williams just that he still possesses enough potential that exchanging him for a slight upgrade at the small forward position (which is likely the easiest position at which to find a relatively cheap complementary player) rather than acquiring a young point guard or a big man who can defend and rebound is unlikely to make enough difference in the short term to outweigh the risk that Marvin Williams’ value (both on-court and trade value) may be on the cusp of increasing.
*Bradley, yesterday afternoon: “If the Hawks trade Josh, they lose me. (Unless it’s for Kobe.)” I think he’s on board with my premise in that regard.
hawktalk
June 17th, 2009
1:51 pm
We need our coach to develope a bench to play every night, not just when a starter gets too many fouls. It’s just a bunch of bull to expect a high level of play from a sub when for weeks even months his stat sheet is DNP coaches decision. Formula for success, develope your bench, add quality to the roster, don’t remove from the roster and run some sets other than dribble dribble shoot.
F.I.L.A
June 17th, 2009
1:53 pm
Sam Wetherson i agree with you 100%..I truly believe despite what all the people who try and knock marvins game like mark bradley say about him, That he will be an all-star before its over….The kid is a baller and has a HUGE upside..Make him the 2nd option and actually run some plays for him and I promise he will put up the same numbers as Caron Butler..13 ppg as a 4th option, If you know basketball then you know thats pretty solid..Just like if you know basketball you know marvin williams is going 2 be a problem in this league for a long time..POINT,BLANK,PERIOD!!!!
Lyon
June 17th, 2009
1:54 pm
Tyger is so dumb that…HE CAN NOT EVEN SPELL “TIGOR” CORRECTLY!
O'brien
June 17th, 2009
1:57 pm
Mark,
I like the trade idea, but I dont know why the Wizards would go for it. Their fans would not be happy trading Caron Butler for Marvin and Acie. Would they go for Caron Butler for Marvin and Speedy?
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
1:59 pm
I’d agree that Josh Smith is not a small forward. (What, you want him further out on the floor?) But I don’t think Williams is a power forward, either.
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
2:00 pm
I can’t imagine anyone would want Claxton over Law, O’brien. One sometimes plays. The other never plays.
Depressed Hawks Fan
June 17th, 2009
2:00 pm
Mark Bradley,
If we get Caron Butler, does that mean Al Horford is staying at C?
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
2:01 pm
Yes. Rick Sund and I apparently comprise a minority of two: We both think Horford is a center.
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
2:02 pm
Let me put it this way: Hasheem Thabeet is regarded as the No. 1 center in this draft. He’s not as good as Horford. Thabeet can’t score. But Horford can block shots.
Hugo
June 17th, 2009
2:16 pm
For no other reason, the Hawks would not part with Marvin because they wouldn’t admit to making a blunder when Chris Paul, Brandon Roy and Deron Wms were available and they did not get one of these GEMS. They would come out better to package somebody and a draft pick to Memphis for Gasol. Since we screwed over the other Gasol try and make up for the obvious screw up.
Chris
June 17th, 2009
2:24 pm
We need Ginobli!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I heard Washington was interested in him so why shouldnt we. He would open up the inside with his clutch shooting and winning mentality
Sam Wetherson
June 17th, 2009
2:26 pm
Mr. Bradley that fact that you would suggest starting Flip at the point makes me question whether or not you actually watch basketball or understand the game. If you did you would know why you never ever start Flip as your pg. With Josh Smith there are alot of if’s and will be’s. I choose to look at what is here and now. People saying that he will be the best player on the Hawks and he will do this and that. The best way to judge the future is to look at the past and present. Marvin Williams has consistently gotten better and has outgrown the role he is in. Josh Smith blocks have been decreasing, he is a turnover machine, he takes bad shots, doesn’t have a very good BBiq. God forbid he gets injuried and loses that explosiveness then what do you have—Kenyon Martin. Smart and skilled basketball players are superior to athletic players any day of the week. Josh SMith is trying to be something that he isn’t and refuses to play to his strengths.
Chris
June 17th, 2009
2:26 pm
Give them Joe for Ginobli and get Hedo Turkolu. Finally some real shooters on the court
Dr. Warren
June 17th, 2009
2:30 pm
Where is Acie’s much-lauded “upside”? I must be looking in the wrong direction. To get Butler, hell, send Acie and Marvin just for him alone. Forget Crittenton. And just as THE LOVE BOAT and FANTASY ISLAND once combined episodes, let’s combine Shultz’s blog with Bradley’s and get both Caron Butler AND Rafer Alston. With Alston’s past legal troubles, we could have ourselves another Eddie Johnson to lead the way. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafer_Alston
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
2:46 pm
I can’t see the Hawks buying someone else’s big-name free agent. Not with so many of their own and the Spirit being, well, the Spirit.
And you’re right, Sam. I haven’t seen a game in 30 years. Do they still have the center jump after every basket?
jg
June 17th, 2009
2:56 pm
this is a tough one Mark!!!
i watched every game the Hawks played this year and when they really had it rolling it was because of the way Marvin Williams was playing. He was busting jumpers, driving it to the hole when needed and playing pretty good defense against some great players. I’m not a big fan of saying this guy is untouchable or that guy can’t do this or that. I am a huge fan of the Hawks and I want them to keep making progress toward a Championship in whatever way they have to. But I really do think this same team plus a true center can compete for the title.
I think that center is Chris Bosh! I know we’d have to be able to sign him long term and have to give up something–probably one of Marvin, Josh or Horford but this is the move to get us where we need to be. Let’s look at this way: Marvin for Bosh, Line up–Bibby, JJ, Josh, Horford and Bosh. Not many teams can put that type of starting lineup on the court. OK let’s say Josh Smith and our pick or Speedy or however it works out for Bosh. Line up: Bibby, JJ, Marvin, HOrford and Bosh. Still a fantastic starting five. Now Horford for Bosh. Line up: Bibby, JJ, Marvin, Josh and Bosh. Still a great group.
All of these scenarios seem to work–I just hope we don’t screw it up and blow up a team that can be really good the way it is…yea we may not win a title next year–but we’ll be better and then maybe something else opens up for us next year.
And by the way–the reason we didn’t get Robert Horry is that Babcock drafted a guy from Staford named Adam Keefe instead of the guy that now has six rings and played his college ball right here in the south at Alabama.
Good Luck Sund–this kind of thing is why your the man–Please do the right thing and get Bosh or try to get better thru the draft by getting a pg or c.
jg
chattanooga
terrell barron
June 17th, 2009
2:56 pm
Just heard another rumor for the millionth time. lol!!. Josh Smith and Acie Law to GS for Monte Ellis and Brandon Wright. Would you do it?
BHayley
June 17th, 2009
3:01 pm
Nice trade idea, Mark.
I’ve toyed with Marvin for Jamison for over a year, but Brandon & Woolvey laughed at me a year ago when I made that suggestion. Caron does play the 4, doesn’t he? I guess he’s a true 3. I’m all for this trade. I’ve said it for 2 years: We need a player next to Joe that scores 20 EVERY NIGHT. And Caron said after this season that it’s all about next year–that he’s gonna return better than he’s ever been