Face Off: Say goodbye to Marvin, hello to Caron Butler
Read Jeff Schultz’s view: Hawks need to get the point — and it’s Rafer Alston
Marvin Williams is the least essential Hawks starter. He scores points and takes rebounds but seems to leave no imprint on games, and one of the reasons Joe Johnson gets the ball with three seconds on the shot clock — or, worse, Josh Smith gets it 25 feet from the hoop — is that Marvin, four years a pro, still won’t assert himself.
I want to see Marvin not assert himself elsewhere next season. I want the Hawks to re-sign him — he’s a restricted free agent — and ship him and Acie Law to Washington for Caron Butler and Javaris Crittenton. The Wizards are looking to cut salary, so that part would work for them, and they’re also looking to get younger. Williams turns 23 on Friday; Butler is 29. (See ajc.com photo gallery.)
Butler is a small forward with deep range and — key point — a ton of self-assurance. He wants the ball when the clock’s ticking low. He averaged 20.8 points, 6.2 rebounds and 4.3 assists last season to Marvin’s 13.9, 6.3 and 1.3.
My biggest complaint has been that too much of the Hawks’ offense begins and ends with Johnson. (”Iso-Joe,” as clever bloggers have dubbed it.) Butler would lighten that load by making plays of his own — Marvin, as we know, makes few plays — and would provide cover should Mike Bibby leave as a free agent. A team could make do with Flip Murray as its starting point guard if he has Johnson and Butler at 2 and 3.
This trade need not be a loss for the Wizards. In a city where he isn’t known mostly for not being Chris Paul, Williams still could develop into something more than a team’s fifth-best starter. (Not so long ago, he was considered the most gifted player of his draft class.) But it hasn’t panned out for him as a Hawk and, with Johnson and Smith and Al Horford ahead of him now, it won’t ever.
Butler would upgrade the Hawks at one of the two positions that could stand upgrading. The other is point guard, and that’s more problematic. Bibby, who’s an unrestricted free agent, might not want to play for half what he made last season and could well leave. (Law’s time here seems done.) Flip, whom the Hawks will surely re-sign, is best deployed as a scoring sixth man, not an orchestrator. That’s where the draft comes in.
There’s not a Paul or a Deron Williams to be had, but there are some promising guards who figure to be available at No. 19. Eric Maynor of VCU could be there. Patty Mills of St. Mary’s could be. And Ty Lawson of North Carolina, who seemed slotted to go in the lottery, has been dropping in the mock drafts. He could be there, too.
The Hawks are getting close to something good. They don’t need to be taking the long view now. Caron Butler will make $21 million over the next two seasons. That’s a reasonable price for the guy who could bring the Hawks that much closer to Orlando and Cleveland and Boston.
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329 comments Add your comment
Rufus1
June 17th, 2009
11:08 am
I like the Marvin for Caron, but Javaris for Acie, I think that is crazy. What has Javaris has done more than AC. It is clear from your love Josh and now Javaris, you have a MAN CRUSH on athletes.
HawkKingBibby
June 17th, 2009
11:15 am
Mark this is a great idea but Rick Sund is going to have to get the Wizards gm real drunk to agree to this trade.
Drez
June 17th, 2009
11:18 am
Why would the Wizards make this trade???
HawkKingBibby
June 17th, 2009
11:20 am
I think like you say if we get Butler we can rely on Flip for a year to start and draft a point as well. I have one ? though, you seem real positive the Hawks will resign Flip and its not the 1st time you wrote that. What makes you so sure?
mryan
June 17th, 2009
11:22 am
Great minds think alike Mr. Bradley. Caron Butler is in need of a change of scenary and I think the ATL is a perfect landing spot.
ILL-logical
June 17th, 2009
11:23 am
A sound but modest proposal Mr. Bradley, however it still doesn’t address the fundamental challenge that the Hawks organization continues to face: Mike Gearon has not been a good steward of the franchise.
Certainly changes in the faces on the floor are in order. The question is why in a town where over half of the current or past NBA live and play can’t there be a better selection of free agents and certainly better coaching and general management?
If you look at the organization from top to bottome objectively(if true sports fans could achieve that state) there is nothing that says championship aspirations or effort.
I am not advocating letting the perfect becoming the enemy of the good-I don’t see very much good in the future. The fact that there are 6 free agents on an up and coming franchise doesn’t speak well of the strategic planning for the organization. and to have all of the coaching staff being effectively relieved of their duties doesn’t inspire convidence either. And let’s not forget the small matter of the team’s finances.
It is entertaining to banter about who is great and is not / who is better suited to to do what, however until or unless their is some real leadership at the top , all of this but sound and fury that signifies nothing.
Herschel Talker
June 17th, 2009
11:27 am
The Hawks are irrelevant
you kiddin ?
June 17th, 2009
11:30 am
Jarvis Crittenton? Is that a joke? Acie is 10 times better than that tool. He was overrated when he played at Yech and he’s a nobody in the NBA.
Ernest
June 17th, 2009
11:32 am
>A team could make do with Flip Murray as its starting point guard <
Not sure I agree with this statement. Some players are best coming off the bench and I think Flip is one of those. At the end of the day, it does not matter who starts but who finishes…
This is an interesting trade proposal however I may be one of the few fans that can see the contributions Marvin makes to the team. Chemistry is an important factor with basketball teams and I think Marvin ‘fits in’ with what the Hawks are doing. They want him to look for his shot in the beginning of the games then serve as an outlet to drive to the basket (with hopes of getting fouled) near the end.
While Butler is a good player, he may inadvertently take away from both Al and Josh’s development. By that I mean he will probably need a certain number of touches and shots per game which would take away from Al and Josh.
phoenix falcon
June 17th, 2009
11:33 am
the Hawks have enough forwards, they need a center ( Orlando’s back up center could fit the bill) , and a point guard, we have been saying this for how long? why is it so clear to everybody else, but not the people who can do something about it? this is not brain surgery.
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
11:35 am
The Wizards are an aging team with some massive salaries — Gilbert Arenas and Antawn Jamison make a ton of money. It will be cheaper to have Marvin in a sign-and-trade than to pay Caron Butler around $10 million next season, and Marvin is six years — actually, seven as of this moment — younger.
As for Flip: No other general manager likes Flip as much as Rick Sund. Trust me on that.
shresee2
June 17th, 2009
11:36 am
How could we beat the Cav’s when the rumor mill on the cav’s website says they want and can afford Josh Smith. That Josh Smith would be explosive in their offensive and a missing piece needed for lebron. How could the Hawks complete with that with only draft picks or players people want to give away. I know we should not get caught in the rumors but trading Josh to a east team rival seems like suicide. How would that be to trade josh to cleveland and they win the championship. I know the hawks have to do something but we cannot go back to a 13 or 30 win season. If we get these players will Woody open up and really use them and get deeper into the bench and not ride JJ for the most minutes.
How about charlie Villanueva? The Hawks have created a fan base that makes it tough for teams to play here and we want to be a place that players want to come. Other organizations say we lack real leadership and are just cheap. Others share your thoughts!
The Dust
June 17th, 2009
11:37 am
JOSH SMITH MUST GO!
Trey J
June 17th, 2009
11:38 am
I live in Washington and I saw a lot of Wizards game on TV….LOL I only went to the Verizon Center when my Hawks came to town. Sort of like what the Hawk fans do in reverse at Phillips.
I would love that trade! Butler is a baller and would automatically bring the Hawks about 7 or 8 additonal wins! I’m not hating on Marvin but he’s not the answer in Atlanta and like the song saids “a change would do you good”!
However, with all that being said honestly why would Washington give him up? They got a young talented team with a new coach and he’s the leader on that team not Agent O!
I hope there’s something to this trade rumor and not just away to take my mind off that issh about trading Josh! The Hawks have a good thing going but still the biggest problem isn’t the players it’s the coach!
Gosh I hate stating the obvious….our coach is Avery Johnson but the ownership is too cheap to make the move. I’m tired of that stuff about him winning more games. Shoot the team is just growing up so they should win more games but when the game is close watch this team and tell me it ain’t coaching.
My bad I know we were talking about the Trade for Butler but if Woody is still there we will be talking about this same problem next year.
phoenix falcon
June 17th, 2009
11:39 am
” shresee2 ”
What???????????
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
11:42 am
I agree: Law has a greater upside than Crittenton. But Law has no future here, and Crittenton would be the makeweight to balance the trade scales money-wise.
And for those saying the Hawks need a center: Do you really believe adding Orlando’s backup and making Al Horford scoot over to 4 will help this team more than upgrading — and Butler is an upgrade — at small forward?
Brendan
June 17th, 2009
11:42 am
Does Marvin Williams suck so bad that he simply must be traded? Wasn’t he a lottery draft selection?
Johhny Utah
June 17th, 2009
11:43 am
Did you not watch any effing games this year bud, Marvin guarded the best offensive player on the opposing side and was the best defensive player on the team. The first game against the Cavs in December when Cleveland was on a 12 game winning street Marvin completly shut down LeBron. If he was not injured during the playoff series the end result of the series would have been completly different, hard to make an impact with a broken wrist.
phoenix falcon
June 17th, 2009
11:44 am
if they trade the the most talented player on the team, i could no longer be a fan of the team. We can all see, the falcons want to get better, the braves want to get better, not so much for the Thrashers and Hawks, and i don’t think that, that is a coincidence they are owned by the same group.
dap01
June 17th, 2009
11:46 am
Get rid of Woody and AC would have a future here. Who’s future is more important, Woody or our young players.
KG
June 17th, 2009
11:48 am
I like Marvin for Caron but not Acie for Javaris. I just don’t think Marvin is going to get much better than he already is. I would be happy with trading him for a 1 or a 5 and bringing Chills back.
phoenix falcon
June 17th, 2009
11:51 am
yes mark, THEY NEED A CENTER, then Horford can play at his natural position, resign Zaza, if they can’t resign Bibby, they still have Flip, they still have A.C., and they can still draft a point guard. i just don’t see how Butler makes this team into a Championship contender.
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
11:52 am
Marvin Williams isn’t a terrible player. He’s a decent player. He averages double figures in points and he’s an OK rebounder. And he tries to play defense. But he’s the least essential starter on his team four years into his career, and that’s not a good sign.
Sam Wetherson
June 17th, 2009
11:53 am
Johnnu Utah I really question of some of these people actually watch the games. Marvin is a very good player stuck in a bad system. How does Caron Butler make us better. Marvin is one of only a few players that can actually guard Lebron James effectively. Josh Smith can’t, JJ can’t and Caron Butler sure as hell can’t. Marvins gets 14 a game very efficiently. Give him Josh SMith’s shots and he would average 20+ a game easy. He and Al Horford are forced to stand around and watch JJ/Bibby dribble for 20 seconds or watch Josh Smith pretend he is Larry Bird. These guys must be getting kickbacks from Josh’s agent. Marvin Williams is the least of our problems.
Melvin
June 17th, 2009
11:54 am
I like Caron for Marvin idea (minus Acie for Javaris). I’m a little worry about Caron ability to guard Turk, Pierce and Lebron. Then again, who can guard those guys. Having a legit 2nd opt or opt 1b that could get ya 20pts a night would move this team closer to the big dogs in the east. It’s a gamble I would roll the dice on. It’s easier to find another wing if Caron doesn’t workout.
Truth About It.net
June 17th, 2009
11:54 am
Do your homework Mark…
The Wizards aren’t necessarily trying to cut salary, they are trying to win a championship before owner Abe Pollin fades into the sunset.
Pollin has even come out saying that he would pay the luxury tax to win.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/20/wizards-owner-pollin-ready-to-pay-penalty-to-win/
Aside from that, Caron Butler is an affordable all-star … Marvin Williams is not even close to an All-Star game.
On talent alone, a GM would have to be an absolute idiot to make this trade .. or Kevin McHale .. or Chris Wallace. Ernie Grunfeld is not an idiot.
I kinda expected better from you Main Stream Media types … no offense.
HawkKingBibby
June 17th, 2009
11:54 am
Mark, I was just thinking that Marv is a BYC player so the Wiz would most likely have to take Speedy in this trade also for it to work.
phoenix falcon
June 17th, 2009
11:55 am
Mark it would be a worst sign if Marvin was not starting at all, he has gotten better every year, i expect him to be better next year then he was last year, meanwhile Butler will be 30.
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
11:55 am
Are the Celtics a championship contender? Who’s their center? Kendrick Perkins? Is he as good as Al Horford? Nope.
If you don’t have one of the league’s five best players — and neither the Hawks nor the Celtics do — the way you win a title is to have three or four of the league’s 10 best players at their respective positions. (That’s the Rick Sund doctrine, and I believe it.) Joe, Josh and Al have that capability. Caron Butler does, too. So that’s four really good players plus a PG. That team would win 50-plus games, which would put it in the picture in the NBA East.
phoenix falcon
June 17th, 2009
11:57 am
” HawkKingBibby ”
if they take speedy, and his contract with them in a deal, i would feel ( as a hawk fan ) MUCH BETTER ABOUT A TREAD LIKE THIS.
darrell starks
June 17th, 2009
11:58 am
Why make that trade when we need to use marvin for a bigger fish do you want championship or 6th seed every year i say trade horford marvin and the 19th pick for bosh and if he resign the following year thats good if not thats more money to go after lebron who LUV THE ATL.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
12:01 pm
Marvin plus Horfy is too much to give up for Bosh, who might not be here more than a year. Sorry, Darrell, but we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
12:03 pm
Yeah, HawkKingBibby, I thought about throwing Speedy in, but that just seemed way too lopsided. (But I’m not a cap maven, and base-year compensation still stumps my band.)
I figured it like this: Law has a greater upside than Crittenton, so the Wizards gain on that end. Butler is a better player than Marvin, so the Hawks win that half. And everybody’s happy!
Najeh Davenpoop
June 17th, 2009
12:05 pm
I agree with the people posting above who say Law is better than Crittenton, but if that’s what it takes to replace Marvin with Caron Butler, I’m all for it. Law can be a starting point in this league — it’s Woodson’s fault he’s not given that opportunity. But Butler is an All-Star caliber forward, and although he’s in the same boat as Johnson to an extent in that he’s not a franchise player, adding him will give the Hawks two players who are just beneath that level (possibly three if Josh realizes his potential this year).
Najeh Davenpoop
June 17th, 2009
12:06 pm
The only question I have is whether the Hawks or Wizards have any reservations about trading within the division. I have always thought that’s a dumb reason not to do trades, but the fact is there are GMs in every sport who resist making intra-division trades.
Mike B.
June 17th, 2009
12:08 pm
If the Hawks could pull a deal such as this, I would start believing in our ownership. Word is the Wiz are looking to lower payroll and still be competitive. This deal would be a stretch, but would do that for them. For the Hawks, we need some help for Joe (and hope he doesn’t bolt next year). We also need a solid #1 guy. Butler isn’t that guy, but with 2 solid #2 guys (Joe and Caron) and a developing #2 (Josh is not a go to guy nor is he a finished product) we would improve greatly. Of course Salim….Acie is better that Crittenton, but it’s obvious Woody won’t play him so let him go and develop elsewhere. If the Hawks could pull somethting like this, I would have more faith in the orginization.
phoenix falcon
June 17th, 2009
12:08 pm
” I figured it like this: Law has a greater upside than Crittenton, so the Wizards gain on that end. Butler is a better player than Marvin, so the Hawks win that half. And everybody’s happy! ”
all except hawk fans who want a trophy. all except the players who would make another early exit in the playoffs.
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
12:09 pm
Yeah, Najeh, you make a good point. (You always do, by the way.) But I couldn’t find anybody out West I really liked. I can’t imagine the Kings parting with Kevin Martin, say.
Dan
June 17th, 2009
12:10 pm
silly AJC columnists trying to write about the NBA. Why don’t you leave the basketball talk to Sekou, you know, someone who actually knows something about the Hawks.
shresee2
June 17th, 2009
12:13 pm
phoenix falcon This is what I was referring to on Clevelands news site
AP Photo/John AmisIf the rumors that Josh Smith could be available are true, should the Cavaliers take a look?
Cavalier Attitude: “Something tells me that if the Cavs are looking for a young, long-term solution at power forward, Josh Smith is as good as it’s going to get. They just don’t have the pieces for Amar’e Stoudemire if STAT ever becomes available. If they want Chris Bosh, then they’re going to have to wait for the summer of 2010 and free agency, because if they don’t have the pieces for STAT, they certainly don’t have the pieces for Bosh. Smith is neither Amar’e nor Bosh, but he’s a heck of a solution and a great fit for the Cavs on both ends of the floor.” » Read more
WaitingForNextYear: “Given a new team to play with, one with strong leadership and a high level of chemistry, it would be incredibly intriguing to see how Smith’s game could blossom in Cleveland. He’ll be 24 next season, and he’s signed to a reasonable amount through 2013, giving the Cavaliers another long term piece to the puzzle and further adding to the stability of this roster. For a player who has had a +15 PER in every season of his career and over the last 3 years has put up 16.4 points, 8.0 rebounds, and 2.43 blocks per game, he would certainly be an exciting addition in the wine and gold.” » Read more
edward
June 17th, 2009
12:16 pm
Love the article Mark and would love for Sund to somehow pull this trade off. It would make the Hawks a much better team on both ends of the court, and especially in crunch time and having someone else who could help Joe out and take over a game. Even though I do like Marvin he really does have the least impact on our team compared to our other starters. The only question I have is why would Washington do this? I understand the money part of the equation. I’m just scared that they will trade Jamison insted of Butler to save money and get younger. Hope you are right Mark, this trade would put us up there in the East and make us a bonafide contender. One question: Who would you like for the Hawks to draft? How bout Lawson? I think he is perfect for what we need. Imagine him leading the break with Josh, Joe, Caron, Al, etc? Pretty good I’d say.
Mac
June 17th, 2009
12:17 pm
Doesn’t the presence of Speedy Claxton mean the Hawks point guard position is solid? I mean he has had a lot of time to rest and heal.
Mike B.
June 17th, 2009
12:17 pm
There is nothing on Cleveland’s team we would want outside of Lebron to get Smith so that’s out of the window. Maybe if they package Mo Williams, Delante West, and big Z, but that (like this thought) would be foolish.
Aaron
June 17th, 2009
12:18 pm
The only differences between Marvin Williams and Caron Butler are as follows:
Marvin is younger and bigger.
Caron is a better passer and has more plays run for him.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/tiny.cgi?id=yyZWK
^^^They are comparable defenders and rebounders, and their offensive efficiency are nearly identical.
Here’s a better idea – run some plays for someone other than Flip Murray and Joe Johnson, and keep the player who works hard on his game every offseason and has gotten better every year in the league.
Don’t get me wrong, I love Caron Butler as a 3rd option. The problem is that Marvin has more than enough ability and upside to be a better 3rd option than Caron Butler.
Mark, the same logic you and Sekou use to justify hanging on to Josh Smith works for Marvin Williams as well.
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
12:19 pm
Edward, I’d say Eric Maynor would be my favorite PG — among those who might be around at No. 19 — in the draft, but Lawson is second. And I like Patty Mills, too. I’d consider it a win if they got any of those.
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
12:21 pm
Nice one, Mac.
And Mike, I agree. Would you take Delonte West and Big Z for Josh and Mo Evans, say? I wouldn’t.
fudd21
June 17th, 2009
12:23 pm
Shresee2, but the Cavs have nothing and I mean absolutely positively nothing that the Hawks could use or would want (outside Lebron of course) so why on earth would we ever consider trading with the Cavs. Who would we get Varejao? I’m just saying
Cleveland
June 17th, 2009
12:24 pm
I agree with ILL-logical. The issue for this franchise is ownership. Until that is resolved, the teams future and finances will not attrack anyone to come and lift this team over the hurdle it has faced since Ted Turner owned the team.
You have this idea that breaking up this team will make it better, it will not. The philosophy needs to change.
1. This tam is loaded with talent that needs to be resigned. It will not happen because of ownership.
2. The talent that is here needs to play. This team was dog tired during the play offs because the rotation and the style of play used is not player or fan friendly. THIS TEAM SHOULD BE PLAYING UPTEMPO AND PLAYING MORE PLAYERS.
3. The reason that Joe Johnson has the ball in his hands at the end of the shot clock has more to do with the fact that the team doesn’t have a creative point guard that can beat his man off the dribble and get people open shots. Let Mike Bibby go (he didn’t play defense at any time)
Sam Wetherson
June 17th, 2009
12:29 pm
So Bradley the following is Marvin’s fault:
JJ-disappeared in the playoffs and most of the season.
Josh Smith-takes bad shots
Josh Smith-can’t defend or rebound for his position
We didn’t win 60 games.
Bibby-can’t defend worth a damn
we have no offense.
Injuries
Each of those problems will exist if Marvin was here or not. You think an all star is going to come in and be the 3rd or 4th option on this team. He averages 20 a game but he takes nearly 20 shots a game. Sometimes adding more talent doesn’t make the team better. Marvin and Caron’s stats are nearly identical except for the scoring. Marvin is a better defender. Butler is a hothead as well. Marvin Williams was the 13th ranked SF last year. AS the fourth option. We get rid of Bibby MArvin moves up into the top 10. How can a player that gives you 14 a game taking 7-10 shots a game be bad for a team. He plays good defense. How is he the scapegoat?? After he got hurt our record was 16-14 including the playoffs!!
dub
June 17th, 2009
12:31 pm
I like to know one thing why A.C. Law CAN’T play point guard. I blame it on the coach for not putting him in and let him play he can’t do no more than Bibby & Joe WAS DOING TURNING THE BALL OVER. AT least he take it to the basket Bibby want. everytime he made a mistake he get the hooks unless the game is out of hand.Coaching is the problem.
niremetal
June 17th, 2009
12:32 pm
Um. How would that trade cut any payroll for the Wizards? At all? You do realize that NBA salaries have to roughly match in trades where both teams are over the cap, right? And that a sign-and-trade with Marvin would mean the Wizards would be taking back a guy with a new 4-5 year contract while Butler has just two years left on his?
niremetal
June 17th, 2009
12:34 pm
And having lived in DC for the past couple years and seen many Wizards games, I can tell you that Caron Butler is not close to as good as you make him sound. Not remotely.
darrell starks
June 17th, 2009
12:35 pm
Why do you say horford marvin and the 19th pick is to much for bosh specially if chill come back.
STARTERS ACIE, JOE, CHILL, JOSH, BOSH,
BENCH FLIP, MOE, HAKIM WARRICK, CHARLIE V. ZAZA
RESERVE SOLO, WEST
TEAM PAYROLL 75MILL
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!
niremetal
June 17th, 2009
12:37 pm
And ABSOLUTELY co-sign Aaron.
Dan
June 17th, 2009
12:39 pm
I say trade Marvin if it gives us a chance to select Hasheem Thabeet.
Put Hasheem at center, move Horford to Power Forward and Josh Smith to Small Forward what a great defense that would make…Then draft Ty Lawson with our pick….We could also sign either Bibby, Jamal Crawford, Jarrett Jack or Andre Miller to play point
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
12:41 pm
I understand a lot of people see Marvin Williams in a more favorable light than I do. (And I have nothing against him personally. He has always been very accommodating.) But I had the same question about him as a UNC freshman that I do as a four-year pro: Why is he so deferential to other players?
I also know a lot of folks fault Josh Smith for trying to do too much. Better that than too little, I say.
Rufus1
June 17th, 2009
12:42 pm
Sam
I completely agree with you about Marvin..Some people have DUNK fever. Why doesn’t Marvin have just as much UPSIDE as Josh. No body would give Marvin wide open Jump shots. What about the 3 he hit against Boston. He one of the few people who can guard Lebron, Rasard, Hedu and Paul Pierce.
You don’t trade a 23 year old, 6′9, 240lb sf, who can hit the 3. His is extremly efficient and has a very good jump shot and he plays very good defense.
MARVIN WILLIAMS IS THE SAME HEIGHT AND WEIGHT, CAN SHOT AND GUARD THE 3 OR 4 POSTION….WHY WOULD YOU TRADE HIM.
PS…FIRE WOODY
MJ3
June 17th, 2009
12:42 pm
Man wat the hell you talkin bout trading marvin for Caron? Didnt you watch any games at all this year before marv got hurt? Marvin is already as good a defender as caron, a better outside shooter, and isnt afraid to take it to the rim.
You talk bout him not being assertive. how the hell is he suposed to be assertive in woody’s offense, where all he ever is told to do is stand on the perimeter and wait for a bailout pass? do you actually blame MARVIN for WOODY’S offense? seriously, i want to know.
TP
June 17th, 2009
12:45 pm
Great post Mark. Quite simply, I think Horford is the only untouchable on this roster (Josh Smith a close second). I know it’s more complicated than this, but if I were Rick Sund, I’d have a hard time turning down a mutually fair trade for any other player. I’d take Butler in a hearbeat, as well as take my chances with Crittenton (though I do think Law and Flip would make for a nice PG pairing).
Regarding Marvin, I think he’d be the next Robert Horry, if he landed on the right team. Rather than be the star of the show, he could grab a few rebounds, play minimal D and hang out at the 3-point line. Perhaps the Cavaliers would be a good fit.
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
12:50 pm
TP, that’s a good comparison. But I’d offer one bit of contrast: Horry was never deferential, not even at Alabama. (As I recall, he kept getting technical fouls.) I’m just not sure boldness is in Marvin’s DNA.
Chris
June 17th, 2009
12:52 pm
I feel like I’ve seen this Acie story before. Didn’t Coach Woody ruin another scoring point guards career that the team drafted? Oh yeah, Salim Stoudamire. Acie doesn’t even come close to the same player he was in college, and I’m betting it has something to do with lack of minutes and a coach telling him he’s not supposed to shoot in this league. I fear taking another PG later in the draft. He’ll do nothing but ride the bench with an Adam Morrison type look on his face. I’m not even sure that Woody would let J-Critt play once he got here, so really our only option is Andre Miller or Mike Bibby.
Can someone please explain to me the benefit of not having set plays? I don’t understand why our offense is run like they’re playing a pickup game.
Rufus1
June 17th, 2009
12:53 pm
Aaron
Co-sign
Darrin "The Vent King"
June 17th, 2009
12:55 pm
So far I like both you and Schultz’s ideals today- trade to get R Alston and trade Marvin Williams (heck for anybody!) for C Butler. Those two pieces along with what we have (minus the coach of course) would be a great idea and a step forward in the right direction. Get a center (maybe the Polish backup from Orlando), move Al Horford to his natural 4, J-Smoove to the 3 and a new coach with a different philosophy and we might have something…
Rufus1
June 17th, 2009
12:59 pm
JOSH SMITH CAN’T PLAY 3, HE CAN’T GUARD SF OR SHOT. NAME ONE OTHER SF WHO CAN’T HIT A WIDEOPEN JUMP SHOT.
Mash
June 17th, 2009
1:00 pm
Mark, I like the Marvin for Butler trade idea. However, I’m not sure Washington would do it. Say we opt to not sign Bibby for financial reasons, do you think we could coax the Bulls into taking Marvin for Hinrich (plus a draft pick or some marginal player). The Bulls are going to have unload Hinrich, right?
What do you think?
Hedo Fan
June 17th, 2009
1:00 pm
Gortat and Alston would both be fine additions from Orlando, but Turkoglu is the key guy we need to sign. He can shoot, handle the ball and penetrate. Take Bibby’s $15M and give it to Hedo. He could even bring the ball up if Acie didn’t pan out. Hedo also makes Marvin expendable in a trade. This is a no brainer.
Chris
June 17th, 2009
1:02 pm
Also, maybe throwing around Al Horford to see if anyone takes a bite wouldn’t be a bad idea. His numbers from his rooke year and sophomore year are practically identical (’07-’08: 10.1pts, 9.7reb, 0.9blks, 81 games) (’08-’09: 11.5pts, 9.3reb, 1.4blks, 67 games). I don’t know if he’s really going to get much better than that. If it’s the Celtics, Cavs, and Magic we’re trying to catch up to, he can’t hold his own against any of those teams in my opinion.
richbrave
June 17th, 2009
1:10 pm
J-CRIT is a playa’ and will prove it over the course of saying good-bye and thanks for the memories to the ghost of AGENT ZERO. He’s going no-where, but would be a great pick-up for the HAWKS. Now, BUTLER might be had, but MARVIN would not be what the WIZ need. In my estimation they need to get tough on the inside and play defense at the #’s 4 and 5. Nothing less. PACHULIA might be able to get some PT by moving McGEE to the #4 where he belongs. JAMISON to #3 playing alongside DOM McGUIRE to take BUTLER’s place. Just no place for MARVIN.
TP
June 17th, 2009
1:11 pm
Great point – I remember also Horry was on the Hawks radar, but we obviously drafted someone else. I can’t for the life of me remember who that was. That SF from Duke (not named Shelden) who also went to Saint Joe’s?
If he does stick around, I suggest playing mind games with him. Let Woody publicly criticize him. Or, you can proclaim to the world that “he’s the man” now and will be expected to take x number of shots. Make him play in the Summer League again. It may seem wacky, but I’d like to see how he plays when he’s ticked off.
tmac
June 17th, 2009
1:13 pm
I agree that Marvin needs to go.
I only wish anyone would agree to a trade like this.
tim
June 17th, 2009
1:14 pm
why dont the hawks this yars number oen draft pick and next years number one pick and trade them to try ot get in the top ten lottery this year, and he money they would save by trading next years pick would help for big free agents next year.
tim
June 17th, 2009
1:18 pm
why dont the hawks this years number one draft pick and next years number one pick and trade them to try and get in the top ten lottery this year, and the money they would save by trading next years pick would help for big free agents next year.
Daniel
June 17th, 2009
1:18 pm
I love the trade idea Mark, but along with alot of others on here do not see the feasability. But, hey who knows. I still like the idea of trading Josh Smith for Chris Bosh(with contract extension). Then work the team from there.
F.I.L.A
June 17th, 2009
1:18 pm
Mr.Bradly you are wrong about marvin williams..He scores 13 ppg as the 4th option and still doesnt have any plans ran for him..2-3 years from now if we trade marvin we will regret it..
jpmoney
June 17th, 2009
1:21 pm
you are an idiot…Marvin is essential to this team moving forward. His natural growth will make him much better than Butler. Please let people who know basketball write about basketball.
ray
June 17th, 2009
1:24 pm
Mark– This is a really good trade proposal. And I have a little bit of confidence that Sund could make it happen.
If Bibby leaves as a free agent, though, they probably would need to find a veteran free agent – not sure Flip could cut it as an 82 game starter.
Marv does need to go – he’s the weak link in the starting lineup.
Often Disappointed/Never Surprised!
June 17th, 2009
1:24 pm
Any organization in need of a Center (Low-Post) must consider Orlando’s back-up. In fact, had Van-Dummy played him along side Howard morem, they would have fared a whole lot better. Somebody please help me understand why Patrick Ewing (Jumpshooting Center) is training Dwight Howard, a Low Post center. Does anyone else remember the 80’s playoffs when Ewing choked and caused his team to be eliminated by choosing to finger-roll rather than dunk with both hands?
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
1:28 pm
I think you mean Roshown McLeod, TP. (Who used to live in my neighborhood, by the way.) He was the Hawks’ No. 1 pick in 1998. Horry was already a pro by then.
Tyger
June 17th, 2009
1:29 pm
The Hawks are soooo dumb that…._________________________________ u fill in the blank.
Mark Bradley is soooo dumb that… ________________________________ u fill in the blank.
RealSquawk
June 17th, 2009
1:44 pm
You couldn’t come up with a trade scenario for Josh Smith?
You just got to hate on the guy putting out this trade scenario, which I will admit I would execute on despite how much I like Marvin, but I would need a future first round pick for it.
Again I ask why not come up with A trade scenario for Josh SMith it would be more relevant and it would cause a bigger commotion.
Don’t trade Marvin because he is out BEST PERIMETER DEFENDER AND ONE OF THE BEST IN THE LEAGUE. DON’T TRADE HIM FOR THE SAME REASON YOU DIDN’T PUT UP A BLOG “JOSH FOR AMARE,” BECAUSE HE IS YOUNG AND A YEAR AWAY. DONT TRADE HIM BECAUSE HE WILL BE OUR BEST THREE POINT SHOOTER NEXT YEAR.
Sam Wetherson
June 17th, 2009
1:45 pm
AGAIN ANYONE THAT ACTUALLY WATCHES THE HAWKS AND KNOWS BASKETBALL KNOW THAT MARVIN WILLIAMS IS A KEEPER. WOODY NEEDS TO SPREAD THE WEALTH AND STOP LETTING JJ AND BIBBY HOG THE BALL. 43% OF MARVIN’S SHOTS THIS SEASON WERE WITH 6 SECONDS OR LESS LEFT ON THE CLOCK. YOU GUYS HAVE LET ESPN HIGHLIGHTS INFLUENCE WHO YOU THINK IS GOOD AND WHO ISN’T.
FOR THE 100TH TIME–JOSH SMITH CAN’T PLAY THE 3 SPOT BUT MARVIN CAN PLAY THE 4. OUR BEST LINEUP THIS SEASON WAS BIBBY-FLIP-JJ-MARVIN-HORF!!
Sam Wetherson
June 17th, 2009
1:49 pm
*Completing this thought, Marvin was clearly comfortable asserting himself in Johnson’s absence on two occasions last season to beneficial effect for the club.
Thus, the difference between Butler and Williams is largely one of opportunity. Their career efficiency stats:
Name eFG% TS% 2PTFG 3PTFG AST% TO% OR% DR%
Butler 46.3 52.6 46.1 31.6 14.8 12.7 5.4 13.8
Williams 46.5 53.6 46.5 30.4 7.5 11.0 5.7 14.9
Outside of Butler’s far superior assist rate, there’s little differentiating these two per opportunity. Considering the possibility that, at 22, Marvin Williams 2008-09 three-point shooting (35.5% in 155 attempts) represents a new level of true talent where Butler, who has made less than 32% of his threes in five of seven NBA seasons (including two of his four in Washington) through the age of 28, is unlikely to improve to a similar degree in that respect and that Williams’ FT Rate is significantly better than Butler’s (34.6 v. 27.7) despite Butler’s excellent free throw percentage (85.2% for his career) it’s fair, I contend, to assume that Williams is more likely to score efficiently going forward even before accounting the circumstances* in which they compiled their numbers to date.
*Butler as a key component of Eddie Jordan’s motion offense; Williams as an afterthought in Mike Woodson’s motionless offense.
The difference between the two is opportunity. Again, career stats for both:
Name FGA/36 FTA/36 USG% PTS/36
Butler 13.7 4.5 22.7% 19.4
Williams 11.1 4.8 18.9% 14.5
Personally, I’d prefer the younger guy who gets to the free throw line more often, is a better rebounder, and has greater range better to complement the two young frontcourt players (Al Horford and Josh Smith*) who need more touches in the post. Which isn’t to say that it’s vital the Hawks keep Marvin Williams just that he still possesses enough potential that exchanging him for a slight upgrade at the small forward position (which is likely the easiest position at which to find a relatively cheap complementary player) rather than acquiring a young point guard or a big man who can defend and rebound is unlikely to make enough difference in the short term to outweigh the risk that Marvin Williams’ value (both on-court and trade value) may be on the cusp of increasing.
*Bradley, yesterday afternoon: “If the Hawks trade Josh, they lose me. (Unless it’s for Kobe.)” I think he’s on board with my premise in that regard.
hawktalk
June 17th, 2009
1:51 pm
We need our coach to develope a bench to play every night, not just when a starter gets too many fouls. It’s just a bunch of bull to expect a high level of play from a sub when for weeks even months his stat sheet is DNP coaches decision. Formula for success, develope your bench, add quality to the roster, don’t remove from the roster and run some sets other than dribble dribble shoot.
F.I.L.A
June 17th, 2009
1:53 pm
Sam Wetherson i agree with you 100%..I truly believe despite what all the people who try and knock marvins game like mark bradley say about him, That he will be an all-star before its over….The kid is a baller and has a HUGE upside..Make him the 2nd option and actually run some plays for him and I promise he will put up the same numbers as Caron Butler..13 ppg as a 4th option, If you know basketball then you know thats pretty solid..Just like if you know basketball you know marvin williams is going 2 be a problem in this league for a long time..POINT,BLANK,PERIOD!!!!
Lyon
June 17th, 2009
1:54 pm
Tyger is so dumb that…HE CAN NOT EVEN SPELL “TIGOR” CORRECTLY!
O'brien
June 17th, 2009
1:57 pm
Mark,
I like the trade idea, but I dont know why the Wizards would go for it. Their fans would not be happy trading Caron Butler for Marvin and Acie. Would they go for Caron Butler for Marvin and Speedy?
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
1:59 pm
I’d agree that Josh Smith is not a small forward. (What, you want him further out on the floor?) But I don’t think Williams is a power forward, either.
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
2:00 pm
I can’t imagine anyone would want Claxton over Law, O’brien. One sometimes plays. The other never plays.
Depressed Hawks Fan
June 17th, 2009
2:00 pm
Mark Bradley,
If we get Caron Butler, does that mean Al Horford is staying at C?
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
2:01 pm
Yes. Rick Sund and I apparently comprise a minority of two: We both think Horford is a center.
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
2:02 pm
Let me put it this way: Hasheem Thabeet is regarded as the No. 1 center in this draft. He’s not as good as Horford. Thabeet can’t score. But Horford can block shots.
Hugo
June 17th, 2009
2:16 pm
For no other reason, the Hawks would not part with Marvin because they wouldn’t admit to making a blunder when Chris Paul, Brandon Roy and Deron Wms were available and they did not get one of these GEMS. They would come out better to package somebody and a draft pick to Memphis for Gasol. Since we screwed over the other Gasol try and make up for the obvious screw up.
Chris
June 17th, 2009
2:24 pm
We need Ginobli!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I heard Washington was interested in him so why shouldnt we. He would open up the inside with his clutch shooting and winning mentality
Sam Wetherson
June 17th, 2009
2:26 pm
Mr. Bradley that fact that you would suggest starting Flip at the point makes me question whether or not you actually watch basketball or understand the game. If you did you would know why you never ever start Flip as your pg. With Josh Smith there are alot of if’s and will be’s. I choose to look at what is here and now. People saying that he will be the best player on the Hawks and he will do this and that. The best way to judge the future is to look at the past and present. Marvin Williams has consistently gotten better and has outgrown the role he is in. Josh Smith blocks have been decreasing, he is a turnover machine, he takes bad shots, doesn’t have a very good BBiq. God forbid he gets injuried and loses that explosiveness then what do you have—Kenyon Martin. Smart and skilled basketball players are superior to athletic players any day of the week. Josh SMith is trying to be something that he isn’t and refuses to play to his strengths.
Chris
June 17th, 2009
2:26 pm
Give them Joe for Ginobli and get Hedo Turkolu. Finally some real shooters on the court
Dr. Warren
June 17th, 2009
2:30 pm
Where is Acie’s much-lauded “upside”? I must be looking in the wrong direction. To get Butler, hell, send Acie and Marvin just for him alone. Forget Crittenton. And just as THE LOVE BOAT and FANTASY ISLAND once combined episodes, let’s combine Shultz’s blog with Bradley’s and get both Caron Butler AND Rafer Alston. With Alston’s past legal troubles, we could have ourselves another Eddie Johnson to lead the way. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafer_Alston
Mark Bradley
June 17th, 2009
2:46 pm
I can’t see the Hawks buying someone else’s big-name free agent. Not with so many of their own and the Spirit being, well, the Spirit.
And you’re right, Sam. I haven’t seen a game in 30 years. Do they still have the center jump after every basket?
jg
June 17th, 2009
2:56 pm
this is a tough one Mark!!!
i watched every game the Hawks played this year and when they really had it rolling it was because of the way Marvin Williams was playing. He was busting jumpers, driving it to the hole when needed and playing pretty good defense against some great players. I’m not a big fan of saying this guy is untouchable or that guy can’t do this or that. I am a huge fan of the Hawks and I want them to keep making progress toward a Championship in whatever way they have to. But I really do think this same team plus a true center can compete for the title.
I think that center is Chris Bosh! I know we’d have to be able to sign him long term and have to give up something–probably one of Marvin, Josh or Horford but this is the move to get us where we need to be. Let’s look at this way: Marvin for Bosh, Line up–Bibby, JJ, Josh, Horford and Bosh. Not many teams can put that type of starting lineup on the court. OK let’s say Josh Smith and our pick or Speedy or however it works out for Bosh. Line up: Bibby, JJ, Marvin, HOrford and Bosh. Still a fantastic starting five. Now Horford for Bosh. Line up: Bibby, JJ, Marvin, Josh and Bosh. Still a great group.
All of these scenarios seem to work–I just hope we don’t screw it up and blow up a team that can be really good the way it is…yea we may not win a title next year–but we’ll be better and then maybe something else opens up for us next year.
And by the way–the reason we didn’t get Robert Horry is that Babcock drafted a guy from Staford named Adam Keefe instead of the guy that now has six rings and played his college ball right here in the south at Alabama.
Good Luck Sund–this kind of thing is why your the man–Please do the right thing and get Bosh or try to get better thru the draft by getting a pg or c.
jg
chattanooga
terrell barron
June 17th, 2009
2:56 pm
Just heard another rumor for the millionth time. lol!!. Josh Smith and Acie Law to GS for Monte Ellis and Brandon Wright. Would you do it?
BHayley
June 17th, 2009
3:01 pm
Nice trade idea, Mark.
I’ve toyed with Marvin for Jamison for over a year, but Brandon & Woolvey laughed at me a year ago when I made that suggestion. Caron does play the 4, doesn’t he? I guess he’s a true 3. I’m all for this trade. I’ve said it for 2 years: We need a player next to Joe that scores 20 EVERY NIGHT. And Caron said after this season that it’s all about next year–that he’s gonna return better than he’s ever been