All-Trade Friday: Should the Braves deal Jeff Francoeur?

Mark,
You are far from wrong. I completely agree with you assessment. It’s definitely time to part ways, which would be good for both sides. Even if Jeff becomes “good” again, it will never happen here and hopefully management realizes that.

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If they can’t get anything for him, and we know they can’t, then send his arse to AAA the rest of the season.

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Good column and good call. Most of us still hope that he’ll do well and any day that he gets two hits, as he did yesterday, gives us reason to believe. However, what the Braves need is more consistency in terms of power and average; at least someone with a 350+ OBP. I’m a realist, though- what can you get for him??

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[...] Mark Bradley | ajc.com – [...]

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Couple of things, first JF has no value at this point, so a trade is not going to net much. And he won’t go to AAA and if he did, how is that going to help without a hitting coach. In Jeff’s defense, this lays at the feet of Pendelton. The only hitters we have (Chipper & McCan) have dad’s as hitting instructors. I don’t blame Jeff for going to the Texas hitting coach. He made a millionaire out of Derosa, Hamilton, Kinsler, Young, Blalock and this year Cruz along with everyone else he comes into contact with. Even Andruw is batting .250. We need to trade for Rudy Jaramillo.

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Trade’s are not the end all to be all…a trade for trades sake is THE worst thing any GM could possibly do. A trade (with ANY player) is only worth considering when there is something more valuable (real or percieved)to get in return.
At present, we’re simply not going to get anything better. Alas, your other options are better, sit, train, teach, change, send down, send up, send out for Chinese for goodness sake. Not like you have a whole lot of money in him, some, but not like the bank.
I’ll say this again. I’d trade TERRY PENDLETON before I’d trade the hitters he has NOT been able to help. no question, THE WOST hitting coach in the Major leagues. What a Joke.

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I agree 100%, I don’t think we can get a bag of balls for Frenchy right now. I think we are looking at an outright release.

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Trade him? For what? A bag of baseballs. No team in their right mind will give the Braves anything of value for him. Until this team addresses the black holes that exist at 1B,2B,LF, and RF, they will be nothing more than mediocre.

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Yes… get rid of the pampered head case… and McJerk as well. Then we’ll be on the road to success… not sub-par mediocrity of which both track records reflect.

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It looks like the whole team needs to go down to triple AAA.I wouldn’t go to a braves game if the tickets were free.These players show no hustle what so ever, why do they care, they get paid win or lose.

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Hitting major league pitching is all about adjustments. The pitchers adjust to the hitters then the hitters must adjust as well. Guys that get by on raw talent do not always succeed at the major league level (remember Brad Kominsk). What would be so wrong with another trip to the minors in an attempt to make him adjust. Let’s see if he can figure it out there. Learning on the fly on the major league roster just isn’t working for him.

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Mark – this is a terrific post, and I hope that people can set their hostility for Jeff aside – and read the words you’ve written.

Read. The. Words.

Set the business considerations aside. This is a human story now and I think it is time to trade or DFA Frenchy to allow him to move on with his life and career. For both sides, it’s likely to be a win-win.

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Unfortunately, little market exists for Jeff, so don’tn expect much in return…more of a “suspect” than a “prospect”. BUT the simple fact remains…Jeff is the face of a very mediocre franchise, the poster boy for the team’s relative failures. If Jeff left, all would benefit…he would, the team would, the franchise would. Poor guy’s walking anxiety for all.

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It is time to trade Francouer. He has more value around the league than here in Atlanta. Remember Boston has been scouting him. I am not suggesting we will get back an All-Star, but something is better than nothing. Perhaps a middle relief arm and a low level prospect.

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Frank Wren dumps Glavine and is keeping Franceour? I think a new GM would be the correct answer here.

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Maybe he needs to see Smoltz’s shrink. I wish he’d start a tear that lasts the rest of the season so we can stop obsessing about this. The Braves have excellent pitching. Francouer is not the only one not hitting like a major leaguer. The Braves can’t get a big bat without weakening the pitching, which is stupid. They aren’t going to contend this year anyway, so sit tight, chill and accept this year for what it is … a step forward in a rebuilding process.

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This posting contains questionable speculations. If you are interested in the subject proposed, please add ProfFish at the start of your posting to allow easier searching.

I’ve been thinking about this for a while, and I’m not comfortable with the subject, but it’s time someone starts taking a real close look at the possibility that Francouer used performance enhancing drugs at some point in his career. At the same time, I’d like to suggest a new approach to this blog that might help us find some answers.

Remember, a decade ago there was little interest in controlling a wide variety of drugs and no testing at all. And, if you don’t think kids are juicing, drop by a Little League ballpark and look at the arms and thighs on 11 year olds. I watched an 11 year old crush a 300 foot home run last night. Proof? No. Suspicion and reasonable doubt? Absolutely, especially since the kid has serious joint problems from growing too fast. He hobbled around the bases.

Back to pro sports. When the sorry history of the era is written, there are going to be many stories told about those who were decent ballplayers, not superstars, and who would never have made the big leagues without help. We’ve focused too much on superstars and now need to look marginal players who had some great seasons. Marcus Giles always comes to mind. Pre-testing, he actually led the league in doubles one year if I remember correctly. Post-testing, isn’t he somewhere in Asia?

What may have happened to Giles and what may have happened to Francouer? The common element is they both lost “explosiveness”, and the ability to rapidly release energy. The ball used to jump off their bats, now it flutters. Energy levels that were once almost comical at times have clearly declined to more normal human levels. Changes in output and production are obvious, just as the reason for those changes is not.

How will we ever know? AJC journalists are now pseudo-Fox News anchors rousing the rabble and sitting on the sidelines in blogs. Don’t doubt that it breaks their hearts to be forced into this role, and expect the exodus from the occupation to continue. Do you really think MB would rather be sitting at his computer when he could be investigating one of the most important sports stories of our lifetime?

A lot of people are going to read this posting. Our backgrounds and access to information vary widely, but together we know and can do a lot. As a society, we must replace responsible journalism with responsible blogging if we are going to find answers to questions that are important to us. Maybe we can do so here.

A quick Google will identify websites that are addressing similar issues, for example http://juicedsportsblog.com/. Unfortunately, these tend to be amateurish or clearly have commercial goals. Here in this forum, we have the freedom to research and report without any requirement to sell advertising space. Maybe we can use it. Here are some suggestions:

We have some great stat-jocks here. Look at players from the 1960s. See what percentage of the group showed significant decline from their first five years in the league to their second five years. Then look at players from 1998 through 2008 and do the same thing. This could be at least an indication of how wide-spread unpredictable performance decline has been. If you have questions about how to set up the data, just ask.

We also have a lot of athletes, coaches and trainers on this board. I’ve been told directly by an Associate Athletic Director at a Division 1 school with a background in training that he could tell exactly who was juicing, when they started, and when they quit. is this true? Are the physical signs so obvious?

We have a lot of members of the Atlanta community who are fans or participants in sports. How many people are juicing, especially at the high school level? Just ask. But, please be careful not to start a witch hunt or to forget that everyone, including Francouer and Giles, is absolutely innocent until proven guilty.

Our moderator needs to help us here, if he’s interested in carrying on the discussion. We would probably need some sort of semi-permanent blog and we would definitely need training in journalistic ethics. For example, journalists prefer public information from quoted sources, as we all do. When sources go anonymous, journalists usually seek confirmation from additional sources. Not a hard and fast rule, but a good guideline.

How about it? Anyone interested in intelligent discourse that extends beyond single syllable words? Is there a possibility that we might actually do something here other than rant?

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Why is Josh Smith getting brought into this? How is he comparable to Jeff Francouer?

If we released Frenchy right now (or traded him or whatever), my lasting impression on him would be the quote, “If OBP is so important, then why don’t they put it on the scoreboard.”

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The Braves only have a “hole” at 1B when Kotchman is out. He’s a good defensive player and offensive player. First doesn’t have to be a home run spot for a team to be successful. Sure, look at Fred McGriff and the Big Cat, but also see Sid Bream. Kotchman is not a problem.

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I think that this is any easy story for Bradley to write. All he has to do is edit his last article about Frenchy and submit. I’m not a Francouer fanatic but the WHOLE team stinks right now! Come one Bradley, write about some of the others……..like Pendleton!

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Mac, the braves are cheap….they don’t want to spend money. They like to put bandaides on glaring weaknesses and somehow hope they miraculously work themselves out. If the braves don’t spend money to get quality talent in here Turner field will continue to have empty seats. Why should i spend/waste my hard earned money to see a team that’s not even worth me watching it on tv much less going to see in person.

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Mark, while from a “numbers” standpoint, you may be right, I have several problems with trading Jeff.

One, as you said, what can we get for him? If it’s not the “all that much” that you say, then are we not better off with his 70 RBI? What better would we have than Jeff if he wasnt here?

Two, who plays right field if Jeff is dealt? Do we put Gregor Blanco in the position? He doesnt hit, either, and is worse than Jeff. What other options are there?

Also, Jeff is only .. 25. The guy has plenty of time to still improve to where he was in 2006/2007.

I wouldnt trade him. Too young. No replacement. Too many downsides. Few upsides to dealing him.

You mentioned that you thought you were wrong, Mark, and, personally, for the reasons I listed, I think you are. Then again, 76% of the readers polled so far side with you, so maybe I’m the wrong one.

Mitch C

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I’d rather the Braves actually send him down to the minors, not a casino weekend. Give him 3-4 weeks in Mississippi and see if things turn around. He doesn’t need to go to Gwinnett. It’s basically the same fans, and it will be the same pressure.

He has no trade value right now, Boston wasn’t impressed. Let him get away from things for a few weeks. Benching him would be a solution, but it doesn’t solve the fact he needs to see pitching in order to improve.

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“Should the Braves deal everyone on the team”

Mark O’Bradley,

I’m thinkin’ yes.

And here’s why,,,,

Leonard Nimoy’s Ballad of Bilbo Baggins:

In the middle of the earth in the land of the Shire
lives a brave little hobbit whom we all admire.
With his long wooden pipe,
fuzzy, woolly toes,
he lives in a hobbit-hole and everybody knows him

Bilbo! Bilbo! Bilbo Baggins
He’s only three feet tall
Bilbo! Bilbo! Bilbo Baggins
The bravest little hobbit of them all

Now hobbits are a peace-lovin’ folks you know
They don’t like to hurry and they take things slow
They don’t like to travel away from home
They just want to eat and be left alone
But one day Bilbo was asked to go
on a big adventure to the caves below,
to help some dwarves get back their gold
that was stolen by a dragon in the days of old.

Bilbo! Bilbo! Bilbo Baggins
He’s only three feet tall
Bilbo! Bilbo! Bilbo Baggins
The bravest little hobbit of them all

Well he fought with the goblins!
He battled a troll!!
He riddled with Gollum!!!
A magic ring he stole!!!!
He was chased by wolves!!!!!
Lost in the forest!!!!!!
Escaped in a barrel from the elf-king’s halls!!!!!!!

Bilbo! Bilbo! Bilbo Baggins
The bravest little hobbit of them all

Now he’s back in his hole in the land of the Shire,
that brave little hobbit whom we all admire,
just a-sittin’ on a treasure of silver and gold
a-puffin’ on his pipe in his hobbit-hole.

Bilbo! Bilbo! Bilbo Baggins
He’s only three feet tall
Bilbo! Bilbo! Bilbo Baggins
The bravest little hobbit of them all

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i wouldn’t make a trade unless it improves the team.

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Keep Frenchy, dump Wren.

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I don’t think you should trade Jeff. He is not the only one in the lineup who is having problems. I think you need to get rid of TP…he is not a hitting coach. Remember their was a time that the “new and upcoming pitchers” could not relate to Leo as their pitching coach. Chipper and McCann use their dad as their hitting coach when they have problems should tell you something as well….why can’t Frenchy go to someone else for help?

When players cannot relate to a coach they don’t produce. It’s just like with teachers, if a student cannot connect with their teacher, they will struggle in that subject.

I don’t think much of FW either…he is ruining the Braves reputation in the league.

I don’t understand the Glavine thing either. So what if he wasn’t throwing hard…you don’t have to be a fast throwing pitcher to get players out. They put Smoltz in the bullpen what not Glavine…could not hurt considering we got pitchers in there that cannot get outs with “their hard throwing” stuff.

If the Braves do trade Jeff, hope he goes to Boston Red Sox and so does Glavine and the Braves can watch baseball again in October while the Sox win another World Series with three former Braves…Frenchy, Glavine and Smoltz.

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I think the common denominator is TERRY PENDLETON. Does no one remember that the Braves couldn’t win a World Series until they got rid of him? Now the Braves can’t win with him back in the dugout. Pendleton is too self-absorbed and needs to move on. Bobby is loyal, but he needs to find a selfless hitting coach; someone like Don Mattingly. Look what his style has done for the LA Dodgers.

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When the whole team struggles you need to look at the coaching. Terry Pendleton is the problem.
Andrew Jones left us with problems and carried them over with him to L.A. But now look at him. He is showing signs of being a descent player again.
Frenchy had problems last year and had to go to the minor leagues to get some coaching.
Frenchy is struggling…yes. But when everyone is also then its a bigger problem.

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Nobody on the Braves’ roster can hit except Chipper, and he’s hurt 40% of the time. Nobody on the Braves agonizes over losses or plays with passion (although Bobby Cox-coached teams never play with passion). Whether Jeff Francouer stays or goes is irrelevant…a Braves team that couldn’t get past the first round of the playoffs with 4 future Hall of Famers on the roster is certainly not going to be any better than .500 with the average talent populating the roster now.

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OK, here’s the line on Frenchy….he’s a reincarnation of Andruw at the plate. Great bat speed, plenty of power, decent foot speed…no regard for the strike zone, too intent on pulling every pitch, impatient, unwilling to adjust his approach based upon what opposing pitchers are doing to get him out, not a thinking hitter – just blind, raw, physicality unleashed without thought or recognition. Swings at too many bad pitches, can’t hit pitches low and away, even in the strike zone because he puts a pull swing on a pitch that should be hit to right field….will not, ‘just get a hit’. He needs to focus more on hitting the ball where it’s pitched….take a walk when you’re not getting strikes to swing at….be more of a student of the game and not just a thrashing brute.

Ted Williams said that the way he hit .406 was that he didn’t swing at a pitch he either wasn’t looking for or wasn’t sure he could put in play. In other words, he didn’t just swing because the ball had been thrown.

OBP may never be put on the score board, but it is an indicator of how professional the hitter is in his approach to hitting. Anyone who doesn’t think about getting on base first and scoring after that isn’t very smart. The only way to score from home plate is to hit the ball over the fence; however, once on base, there are multiple ways to score…but you can’t score by making outs.

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Unfortunately I do think it is time to trade Francoeur. I believe that his advisers did him a great disservice when they advised him to reject the offer made to him by the Braves, around the same time that Brian McCann signed his deal, and roll the dice as to his future market value. When they did that a great amount of pressure was put on a young man to excel each and every game to make his market value go up. That type of pressure can play havoc with your head, and quite frankly most young people his age are not equipped to deal with it. I believe that signing early, and basically setting up his family for life, took pressure off Brian McCann and allowed him to relax and just play baseball, whereas Jeff Francouer sees every strikeout or error as money flying out of his pocket. There is truth behind the old saying “a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.” Too bad it had to happen this way. I hope he can get a fresh start somewhere else and be able to enjoy playing baseball again.

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at this point we need somebody who can just get on base.

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Look at the roster and their lineup! Its not Pendleton’s fault. They spent money on pitching and only have 2 Major League hitters – Chipper & McCann. Maybe McClouth will make it 3. Kelly Johnson, Matt Diaz etc…wouldn’t make 80% of other teams rosters. They have to keep teams under 3 runs every game to have a chance. That’s tough way ti go through a season

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Yes, hitting coaches are a dime a dozen because they aren’t that important. TP isn’t up there swinging at every pitch. Unless TP is telling him “hey, go up there and swing at anything you want”, it isn’t his fault.

This was Francouer’s last chance. It isn’t working out. The only solution is to trade him, and hope that the change in scenery changes his career.

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Mark, I agree with you on Frenchy and I as well think he will be better off somewhere else. But one other factor that seems to be affecting Braves in general…HITTING! Maybe Frenchy was not too far off by going to Texas. Maybe we need to access our present hitting coach. He failed with AJ and now with Frenchy, but in reality sparodic hitting does not justify his present position. Maybe two changes are in the offering.

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Francouer has the potential to be a fairly good hitter. I think it’s pretty obvious from the entire struggling Braves lineup(with the exception of Chipper and McCann) that the problem is the hitting coach. The Braves currently don’t have one. The Braves need to forget about loyalty and Bobby’s “good ole boy” method of hiring coaches and get a hitting coach who could actually help the team. I keep hearing that this is a business. Well, run it like a business. Accept nothing less than a quest for excellence.

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Well duh. Of course they SHOULD trade Francoeur but they can’t because they won’t get anything (AKA NOTHING) in return. And who wants him? Really?

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It’s really not that complicated. Francoeur doesn’t walk. Which means he swings at whatever they throw up there. Major League pitchers are very good, and very smart. If you let them know in advance that you will swing at whatever they throw, you will not see good pitches to hit. We have the entire history of Major League Baseball to back this up. Francouer has ZERO trade value because everyone in the league knows he is an undisciplined hacker with ZERO command of the strike zone. The only option is to bench him. He has to grow up, and learn to approach each at-bat like a professional in order to earn a starting job again. Just trotting him out there each day will not solve the problem.

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THE BIG PICTURE, FOLKS

Terry Pendleton job as the batting coach is way overrated…These players know how to hit, but due to either not listening to good advice, being lazy, or just not being able to handle the pressure of hitting in the big leagues, they’re not even close to getting the job done as a team…A decent batting average doesn’t mean squat (from the TEAM standpoint), if your not getting clutch hits.

Pendleton as I’ve said before, is the manager in-waiting, and it’s time for him to be the manager. That’ll be the true judge of wheather Terry is a good or not so good coach in my opinion. The current group of players, sans the pitching staff for some reason, aren’t productive for Bobby, and the fans don’t deserve bad baseball..I love Bobby, but it’s time for new leadership.

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JimC: yup, a flash in the pan. After the first half-season when he was great, the rest of MLB figured him out, and he can’t adjust.

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What Jeff doesn’t realize is that if he goes to another organization, he will not be played 162 games a year while he is terrible. They will send him to AAA like he deserves. Why is he above actually having to learn how to play.

He does not even hustle anymore. Notice the baserunning the past couple of games. He never has an idea of the the game situation during an abat. He is probably the worst stolen base threat in the major leagues.

The Braves have many offensive problems and JF is the poster child.

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The issue that I see with JF is that the city of Atlanta made him out to be more than he really is. When he broke into the show he was on fire. Because of this we have come to believe that JF is a great ball player. He is not and will never be anything more than average. Yes, he has a good arm for right field but he will never be more than a .250 hitter that will give you 20+ HR’s and 70 or so RBI’s. We have got to come to grips with this and realize he is what he is. The sooner we do that the sooner we can stop expecting him to save the Braves.

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Enough about Frenchy, until he stops swinging at the first pitch, which is usually out of the strike zone when he’s up, he has no chance.
Now, let’s find someone to let us have a real center for J Smoove and move Horford to 4, which is where he should be…oh, wait, that’s tomorrow. Sorry

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Gosh, yes. The only reason, in my opinion, he’s still in the line-up is to preserve whatever trade value he has, which isn’t going to be much. His career is over. You might be able to get a couple of minor leaguers, that’s all. The roster is like a stock portfolio. A couple of losers can bring the whole thing down. Unfortunately, Frenchy, and KJ, have handcuffed the Braves for three years now. Brad Hawpe would look great wearing the Tomahawk; when / if Huddy gets back, and Hanson establishes himself as a starter, we could package Vasquez, Frenchy, and KJ to Colorado for Hawpe.

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YES YES YES and take Cox,Wren and T.P. with him. But T.P. would have to go somewhere else because Frenchy would use another hitting coach. Please Braves ………… it’s time to start over!!!! Top to Bottom!

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I think he once again will be a productive hitter. A .250 average with 11 hr is better than any other outfielder we got waiting in the wings and to trade him away for a bag of balls will not help this team be better. I have a bad feeling that he will be another Jermaine Dye we’re we wish we would have been patient. I can see it now, everyone will be complaining about why o why did we trade him 3 years ago.

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MB,

You like the Leonard Nimoy post?

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Wow, Frenchy swings at the first pitch 47% of the time. In comparison, Chipper does 32% (career numbers).

Is it really that hard to let the first pitch go?

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I have always been a huge fan of Jeff’s but a change of scenery would probably do him good. The Braves rushed him to the majors too soon even though they thought they needed him at the time. It would have done him good to get a full season of AAA under his belt. He is cleary trying to hard and I think it has become more mental for him then anything. He might need to go see Smoltzy old head doctor?

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I grew up playing baseball, basketball, and football with Jeff. He was head and shoulders better than everyone else in baseball. He was good in basketball, but didn’t have a future. He was great in football, but I don’t think he was an NFL player. However, baseball was his ticket to the big time.

I believe in Jeff and still think that he can have an All-Star career. I am the eternal Jeff defender. I know he outworks everyone. I know he cares. I know he wants to win and not let the team down. When the rest of us were out partying and chasing women, he was at the park or working out, trying to get better. And, it showed during games.

Unfortunately, I think that he would benefit froma change of scenery. He would be out fo the hometown spotlight. He would be away from hometown friends and hometown media. The only problem is that the Braves would not benefit in the least from letting him move on. He is the best fit for RF in their organization for the next two or three years. He has more potential then Brandon Jones, Cody Johnson, Matt Diaz, Gregor Blanco, Jordan Schafer, or anyone other remotely close to being ready for the big league OF’s we have. I know there comes a point where potential doesn’t meet production and you just have to cut your losses. But, I think the Braves will regret doing so.

If you could trade him for someone that will make your team better for the next two or three years, until Heyward is ready to take over RF, then I would do it. But, the fact of the matter is that you aren’t going to get any value for him. Best thing to do is to try to get him right. If TP is upset that Jeff didn’t come to him, if Bobby says TP is doing a great job, then TP needs to get Jeff right. If he does that, this whole organization will benefit. Of course, the bloggers will still blame it on someone else.

Sadly, the best option might be to endure the season with him. Hopefully, he produces and we make it to the playoffs. If we don’t and he shows no signs of improvement, then we should just not offer arbitration. Let him sign with whomever he pleases and receive compensatory draft picks.

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Sad to say, but true: he needs to be traded. He seems to waffle between “I’m willing to learn a new approach” and “I just need to go back to being me.” He appears to be a great kid but either his talent is lacking or the stress of playing in his hometown is too much.

As for a trade, the Braves should look to Oakland. They have a certain 29 year old (Matt Holliday) that could be the Braves’ answer for outfield production. After Medlen’s fine long relief a few nights ago, coupled with his quality start before his move to the bullpen, perhaps a package deal should be offered to Oakland.

The Braves have the pitching – this is arguably their best all around staff in 10 to 15 years, but the offense is terrible. Look at last night’s box score for proof: starter goes 8 innings of 1 run ball and we score . . . 1 run as well. These scores are becoming too common. Make a trade: use Frenchy and top pitcher.

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Does anyone think all of those “upset” Pirate fans would like to have McLouth back in center field and McCutcheon back in the minors….or how about in the Braves trade.

I think we acquired the wrong guy….that Pittsburgh GM might be about as dumb as a fox.

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Mark — do you think Frenchy’s temper tantrum at the time of his brief demotion last summer (and his subsequent whining this February) are a factor in the Braves’ decision not to send him to Gwinnett to work out his problems this season?

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The reason he went to another hitting coach is clear to everyone but the Braves management and can be seen clearly in the way the Braves fail to hit consistantly.

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It all started when they fired Nock-A-Homa.

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A resounding HELL YEAH trade him. He should have been traded last year, during the off-season, this spring (when he supposedly had worked out all the problems with his swing).

At this point a trade is MORE than necessary. It’ll benefit the Braves and Jeff. Jeff needs to get out of here and start fresh elsewhere. Braves need to move on from this ridiculous “love affair” with the home town hero.

Of course you won’t get much for Jeff straight up, however, should you package him with another player, say a bullpen guy or Jo-Jo Reyes you should be able to get at least something decent in return.

It is what it is. What else is there to do. Just outright release him next year he’ll be arbitration elligible and want 5 or more million!

So long Jeff FRANCINE!

Wren should fraking look at the poll numbers. The Fans have spoken!

Out Machine should be on his way out of town soon!

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its sad a day after going 2-3 with a rbi and a walk all you morons are doggin him but that is what it has come to and its sad his struggles have a lot to do with idiots like all of you

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cphizzle, if you are happy with a 280 OBP and 621 OPS, then I hope you are happy with a team that won’t go anywhere.

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Frenchy=Brad Kommisk. Nuff Said.

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At least let Diaz play full time until we get rid of Frenchy….

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Yes.

Also, KJ deserves to be equally trashed. I don’t care if his OPS is 100 pts higher. He makes that up with all the ground balls that go by him that decent 2nd basement would field. RF/LF/2nd base are the reasons this team will not be playing in Oct.

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MB,
Well said. Can’t agree more. Bmac is our homegrown Golden Child. I’ve said that since day one.

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cphizzle, who cares what happened in one game? Talk about a small sample size…

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Relucantly, I agree with Mark. Francoeur would benefit from a change, and the Braves would benefit from a RF upgrade.

I think there’s a 50-50 chance that Heyward could make the team in ‘10. Schafer should be back, and McLouth could swing to RF.

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At some point when does it “stop being a slump”? When is the reality going to set in, that maybe that’s just who Jeff really is now. A .260 singles hitter, with marginal power at times. When? Is a season and a half not enough evidence to convince some of you or would you rather he continue to hurt the team by his mediocre at best play.

Look, we all know Jeff cares. We know he wants to succeed. It just ISN’T happening! It’ll benefit both parties to go their seperate way. It’s like staying in a marriage for the kids. Doesn’t work. People see right throught it. Everyone in baseball knows that Jeff is NOT going to be a Brave next year, so why prolong the inevitable.

PLEASE TRADE JEFF ASAP (package him with Reyes) for whatever you can get.

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SimpleDawg,

I have been thinking the same thing. McCutcheon impresses me more than McClouth. He reminds me of Sanders, Butler, Nixon, Garr and Lofton when they ran the bases for the Braves. The triple is the most exciting play in baseball when you have a burner kicking up dust as he accelerates between first and third. Maybe McLouth can do it and bring back the excitement. How many games have the Braves been in this year where speed could have made the diference between losing and winning? I wonder if the Pirates offered McCutcheon to the Braves.

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I say we trade Mark Bradley to a Northern League team for a bucket of balls and some baseball bats.

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Yes. I barely had to read the article to answer that question. I am not sure where he could go and not be under some sort of spotlight since he is “The Natural” and all. Actually, I think he needs to go to AAA and build up some of his value. His ego and head are in the way. He is a person that has never failed. Let him fail and give him a chance to rebound. He is not getting that at the major league level.

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stan how can he not press when he looks in the paper and see articles like this…no win situation

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I think the AAA option is great (with a huge caveat, below), there are other outfielders that could be tossed in to see how they deal with the boiling pot of pressure that the big leagues (including VERY public comments on everything and anything). What is best for the Braves, what helps win games, in surely the prime motivator for any actions by Wren. BUT—, a very close second should be what is best for Jeff, to allow him time away from the spotlight to regain his confidence, his Mojo if you will.

Jeff himself, not the GM, not AJC writers, not bloggers, will need to decide how much he effort he wants to invest to rescue a career that appears to be floundering (in an industry where there is always some young phenom coming down the pipeline). IF he puts a sufficient amount of critical self-analysis into identifying the problem and finding a potential solution (such as his seeking out another hitting coach in the offseason),

In that case, he may determine that his scenarios may appear to be
A) trade to another team / hitting coach- BUT he tried that in the offseason with no measurable improvement after the first few weeks. What are the odds that a third coach and different environment will measurably improve the situation (same pitchers pitching to him the same way).
B) Go to AAA or even AA. He tried this once, but his attitude seemed to doom any possibility of success, he may not have completely embraced the idea that such a fundamental effort and change of mindset was required. Without such a change of attitude, going down to the farm again would have the same result.
C) On the likely chance the physical tools are still the same, consider that the problem is mental and go the route that Smoltz went early in his career, and get help from a sports psychiatrist.

From my distant perspective, not knowing the people personally, I think options B and C together would be best for JEFF, for his long term career, for his happiness 10 years from now. Even if the Braves decide to trade him (give up on him), which is a possibility if the situation remains stagnant.

It appears unlikely that the situation, as it exists, will change without something new factored into the equation. And, ultimately, that will need to come from Jeff himself, hopefully in his hometown where he still has a reservoir of goodwill waiting to be tapped, if he proactively works on it. Like embracing options B and C above.

Just a thought, from the perspective of what is best for the person first, and team second.

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Most people seem to be missing a very important factor that was revealed in Bradley’s article. When Franceour was struggling with his hitting, he chose NOT to consult with Braves hitting coach Terry Pendleton. Rather, he sought out the Ranger’s hitting coach during last off-season. This strongly suggests a lack of trust and/or respect on Franceour’s part for Pendleton’s ability to help him. The question now becomes, “why would the Braves retain a hitting coach that is so mistrusted and or disrespected by the players?”

I do not intend to ignore the original question, “should the Braves trade Franceour?” Logically, because they can get nothing in return for him at this time, the answer must be- No the Braves should NOT trade him. An EXTENDED stay in the minors should be the course of action. There Franceour could work on his hitting, away from the microscope and accompanying pressure of the major leagues. In any case, the minors are in Jeff Franceour’s future and he needs to face that fact. Even if he is traded, no major league team will plug him into their lineup. They too would insist on a minor league stay.

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DAP — Francouer has 200 more career ABs. Adjusted to their career avgs. of:

Francouer – 1 HR/30 ABs; 1 RBI/6.8 ABs; 1 K/5.1 ABs
Johnson – 1 HR/ 37 ABs; 1 RBI/8 ABs; 1 K/4.5 ABs

This would put their relative stats(since 2007) at:

Francouer – Career avg at .266; 34 HR, 201 RBI, 273 K
Johnson – Career Avg. at .269; 38 HR, 181 RBI, 309 K

Still not so different. If anything with 200 more ABs Kelly’s career avg. will drop. So…..still too much unfair bias towards Francouer.

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Mostly agree, but this team has other issues that are perhaps bigger than Francoeur. A .250 hitting 2b who isn’t great shakes on defense either. A .250 hitting retread LF who sleepwalks his way through games. A supposed all-world new CF who, you got it, hits .250 but we are told is the Next Coming.

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Why get on GA for loafing?? He seems to me to fit right in with the rest of this heartless team. Look, the supposed leader never hustles on hits for fear that he might pull his hammy or toe, or get dizzy or whatever ailment he has this week. Fielding is an issue, and has been consistantly over the past few years. The same non productive lineup is continuously trotted out there every night with the hopes that they will produce a different outcome (definition of insanity). That says it all. How do you kill a snake? You cut off the head….. FW needs to start the transition with BC. Until new leadership with HEART and FIRE, is in place we will still be a 500 to sub 500 club. We used to be the envy of every franchise and evryone wanted to play in Atlanta. Now we are nothing more than a bargaining chip for players to get their money. TP must go next. An earlier poster mentioned this.. What does that say when your only productive hitters use their dads as hitting coaches in the MAJOR LEAGUES.. For the past few years I have not attended any Braves games for the simple reason that I can not be an enabeler. My money will not be used to supplement this atrocious production. I know, I’m a horrible fan.. yeah right. Spare me. Until the rest of you so called Braves fans follow suit, the same heartless lineup will be put out there.

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I agree with everything except the argument that he has too much pressure here. Isn’t it the oposite? Doesn’t he have a built in buffer with many of the fans?

Perhaps a change of scenery would help but local pressure is just another excuse. Maybe he simply isn’t that good.

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Honestly, I think JF screwed himself when he turned down the long term contract that McCann accepted. He thought he was worth more than that, and went out and psyched himself out…Trying to prove he was worth mega millions, meanwhile McCann accepted the deal and has made the all star team every year. Thats when I lost respect for him, when he proved he was all about the money and the fame, instead of taking the good deal and proving he was worth it; Then he had the audacity to question being sent down to the minors. He’s not even close to being worth what he’s being paid this year, every time I see him with that cocky little smile on his face, I cringe. To think he idolized Dale Murphy, but obviously only Murph’s numbers, not his ethics or humility.

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I stood up for Francoeur for awhile. Even while seemingly everybody was calling for his head, I’d say “he’s got too much natural ability” or “don’t trade him because hit potential is far higher than his trade value.”

But I just can’t take watching him “hit” anymore. We’ve been singing this song for a year and a half now…it’s not suddenly going to change overnight.

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We need to trade Frenchy. Watching him bat hurts more every time.

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Good column without too much bashing.The problem? Teach the kid the STRIKE ZONE-work with him on explosive training with reflexes like he first had.Should a potential football safety be that slow and not steal bases? Work on the ENTIRE package and use a heaver bat afterwards like Chipper.Then get rid of the lazy I don”t care attitude of Garrett Anderson.

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The Braves GM needs to clean house. from the manager to the bat boy and start over.

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Join the trade francoeur facebook group. AND INVITE ALL YOUR FRIENDS!

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=539176366&ref=ts#/group.php?gid=97934811883&ref=ts

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I agree with the trade, because he cannot help the Braves. Sadly, I think his future in the majors may be in jeopardy long term. He’s the golden boy who had starred all of his life, but is proving not able to adapt to the competition at this level. Remember Giles, who also made the all star team one year, and is no longer starting in the major leagues. Secondly, a player he over shadowed earlier in his life is now a long time all star and he is not. Some people’s ego cannot handle that kind of thing happening.

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Don’t you think that this issue with Jeff Franceour is just a symptom of a more fundamental problem with the organization? I submit that the real problem is the lack of a real owner. Only the nebulous nature of Corporate ownership permits such idiotic management behavior as we have seen in the Braves organization. If the team had a real owner to hold them accountable, then I submit that Bobby Cox would never, ever, have been allowed to permit Franceour to play at such a miserable level of performance, for such an extended period of time.

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It seems there are several players with this Braves team who need a new horizon. Production by the offense is…well…offensive. First base, second base, right field to name a few. Some better middle inning relief pitching would also help. Jeff seems not to be able to accept coaching. His arrogant reaction to being sent back to AA last year was telling. Given the fact that he had become pretty much an automatic out or double play candidate at every bat, his perceived sense of entitlement was nothing short of amazing. Maybe TP is part of the problem since so many batters seem to have trouble in that area, But Francoeur needs a change of scenery. Too bad. He had such potential, but it is unlikely that potential will ever be reached here in Atlanta..

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Matt, I hope you were being sarcastic about Dero. I have always stated that he was one of my favorite Braves because he seemed gritty and to always hustle. I mean he has what 10 HR this year. I saw that last night he went 3 for 3.

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Agree Carl and others on Bobby “Jean” Cox….Give him a big day with all the fireworks etc. and kick him upstairs with VP title ,do nothing job.. Then the Braves can get on with putting a winner on the field. New Mgr. New staff, new attitute … let’s roll……

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ERich42, if you’ll look at my post of 10:40, I think you’ll see that I’m no Franceour supporter. I’m simply making an observation about the mishandling of his situation being symptomatic of the dysfunction in the organization.

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No, no, no – unless some team wants to give up legitimate top prospects in return. His value is at an all time low and that is not the time to trade him – IF – you believe he has talent and the ability to grow from this experience. You should not dump him, he’s not making a big salary and cannot command one and most importantly you don’t have any better options to take his place today.

Consider Johnny Bench in 1971 (year 4 of his long career)…. When he followed up his first MVP season – 293, 45, 148 with a stinker – .238, 27, 61 there was lots of talk about him being a problem, but the Reds stuck with him. (This might be a good time to draw upon former AJC scribe Terrance Moore, he may have an article or two to reference.) There are a handful of players that have gone through the Frenchy experience and survived and thrived (there are also others that never recovered ala Steve Blass and the Braves’ Mark Wohlers). It would be nice if DOB, MB, or even Jeff Shultz would do a little investigation (i.e., home work) and come back to us with a more compelling point of view.

This BLOG was an EASY play on your emotions/frustrations and stoke up the vigilante side of our psychie…..

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Mark,

I agree it is better for Frenchy to get a fresh start elsewhere, but I don’t agree it is better for the Braves. At this point, like you mention, they won’t get anything for him so the Braves assume all the risk if Frenchy turns it around with a change of scenery and they get nothing in return. I’d be more worried about the holes in LF and 2B at this point.

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It would be pretty hard at this point to make a case for not trading him.

Incredible High School Athlete. He just has not translated to the majors at all and has shown no signs of adjusting to the leagues adjustment in almost 4 years.

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That being said, I’m not sure they are going to get much in return unless they wait it out and hope for the best.

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It’s a fine blog topic – well done. I liked the fact that you saw – correctly I think – value for both the Braves and Francoeur in a trade. I think it’s clear he has all the tools needed to be a MLB star. So we’re talking headcase here – not so unusual in baseball. The constant criticism has to make things worse, not better. Let him go to a new club where – since he sure wouldn’t come in as a super star, it would be more of a reclamation project – great things aren’t expected of him. Less pressure, more time to revert to being the player he was – naturally was – when he came up.

The Braves, meantime, can’t do much worse as far as hitting (although matching his arm and defensive skills won’t be as easy).

But it’s really a case of respecting him as a talented young man and putting him in a position to reclaim his talents.

I do wonder if any other teams would take him but I suspect that some might – even if he is intitally assigned to that club’s minor league team.

Good blog, good think – kind thinking.

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comparing Francine to Shelly is irrelavant. They both suck and both need to go but this article is about Francine dorks. Don’t worry there’s plenty a Shelly bashing when his article time comes…

I say cut’em both or send them both back down. 2 liabilities. and LOL at Francine for not taking that contract. We lucked out and dodged a huge bullet with that one

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NC Dawg:

Why do we want to trade Escobar? He gives 100% every night, is one of the best SS in the NL, and he’s cheap.

Stick to talking about GA football or eating ham & eggs or whatever you do because you don’t know a thing about baseball.

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Can someone tell me why Frenchy gets to decide if he gets sent down?

Mine This Bird- Escobar is an idiot- nice hair

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If the Braves trade Escobar I will drive to Atlanta and slap Frank Wren myself.

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Here is a crazy idea, convert Jeff into a pitcher. That is right a pitcher. When the scouts saw him I believe one of them suggested he could be a pitcher with his cannon arm.

Do the reverse Ankiel on Jeff. Send him to the minors and have him learn how to pitch. He could be a closer (his football-based bull dog mentality would be a plus in that roll) who can hit a little.

Crazy I know but if he could harness that arm he could be effective and put to an end the idea that he is going to be the next Chipper Jones.

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It would be a sad day in Atlanta to lose a “MAN” like Francoeur. I hope the Braves management remember that there is more to a fan base than just winning. Will he play better somewhere else? Probably. But if we are going to get nothing for him then why not keep the fan favorite around? Who is going to take his place? Are they going to hit better? Are they going to field better? NO! Are they going to be a good role model? No, it’s not time to trade this guy. For once can we all get behind somebody and offer support instead of damnation? If they trade him they will lose me as a life long fan! Whoever gets him will gain me and my family as new fans. That is called support. If he hit before he can hit again.

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If the Braves can get a bag of salted peanuts for Jeff, the Braves will gotten the better deal in that trade.

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FYI, I would love it if JF would deliver on the expectations, however lofty they may be, but I just don’t think that he will. You gotta do what makes your team better now, rather than later. We all don’t want the TED to be anymore of a ghost town than it alreay is (except when yanks, sox or cubs are in town).

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All of you numb nuts out there including Mark Bradley need to ask yourself. Who in the hell is out there that we can get who can replace him? The market is terrible and no one is looking to make any moves. Just sit tight for the rest of this year. Trading for nothing is NOT a good move.

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Mark – not on the Frenchy subject (T.P. needs to go first), but, it’s been a week – where are the teams beating down Glavine’s door for a craft, veteran left-hander who can still bring it??

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Wow, this article is only a year too late. The question is no longer should we trade him, it’s should we release him.

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If the Braves haven’t ruined him, he can go where he should have in the first place and play DB for Clemson.

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frenchy has the exact same plan as everyone else ,none!!! wonder how long it will take tp to ruin mcclouths swing its a work in progress im sure lol

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I agree that Frenchy is the reincarnation of Andruw Jones. He has no concept of the strike zone and his “big hits ” come on huge mistakes by the pitcher. Were it not for his arm and his glove I would have traded him a year ago. Blaming his problems on TP is like blaming the pitchers’ problems on the fat that Mazzone is no longer around. I love Francoeur, but he is not the guy I want to see at the plate in a crunch. I don’t know if I would trade him, but I would certainly entertain the thought of platooning or sending/sitting him down for a while.

BTW, will I be first to rain on Tommy Hanson’s parade? I notice how everyone is smoothing over his debut, but what I saw was a guy with good stuff who leaves everything at the belt or higher. I think even Jeff Francoeur could make a good living hitting against a pitcher like that. Until Hanson learns to keep the ball down he will be another flash in the braves pan, llike so many before him.

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Jeff set our expectations with his first two seasons. I do not know if he will get back to that level or not. I do know that he is a gifted defense outfielder who has either led the league or been close to it in assists since he got to the Show. He is also a Gold Glove winner. This guy is a good outfielder, and I think he will recover. Not all the way but he will come back. Gee, I have seen players stay in the majors for years by producing 71 RBI’s. Another hit a week and a few more walks and he turns around. Maybe we should dial it down a notch and let the guy off the hook. I know we would all like to see him succeed.

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Jeff has a hard time with the concept of “team”. His I’ll swing at anything and pull everything approach will never make him a run producer or win contributor. .240 and 70 RBI’s is shameful. The Braves 14 games back and mired in 4th place (again) is shameful. Isn’t this Jeff’s walk year? If so he better get his head out of his arm pit and show he’s coachable and a do what it takes to win kind of guy or he’ll be playing in Kansas City for the minimum. Come to think of it Atlanta is the NL’s Kansas City and Jeff is playing for a little over the minimum. Maybe we could package Jeff, Kelly and TP to Japan.

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o agree with that one poster if any gms dumb enough to take garret’LOAF” they may actually take frenchy too play with one outfielder we have been doing that anyways lol

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Frenchy has all the tools…….It’s what between his ears that keeps him from being successful at the plate. Until he develops patience at the plate he will never be the hitter is capable of being. The truth is, a change of scenery might be the only thing that clears his head and allows a chance to gain that patience.

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A couple points:

* Further complicating the whole picture is that, for better or worse, it seems like they are grooming TP to be the manager when Bobby finally hangs ‘em up, and as Bradley has documented, he and Frenchy have a strained relationship at best. (

* On a side note, that HAS to be why they hang on to Pendleton despite his apparent ineffectiveness in his current role – I read more about young guys like Schaefer getting help from Chipper than from TP.)

* I find it amusing to see comments in which some people are talking about how the Braves rushed Francouer and put too much pressure on him as the homegrown golden boy; while in the same thread people are advocating bringing Jason Heyward up from Myrtle Beach! You know what they say about those who forget the past (not to mention the present?)

* Trade Francouer to an AL team where he can be a useful defensive substitute for now with potential for more later.

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OH yeah, one more thing. Get rid of Garrett Anderson. He shows no emotion or heart out there. He looks like he could care less to be in Atlanta. Give his job to a young guy who wants it. The experiment didn’t work- should have got Griffey or something! lol. Give me Diaz any day over GA!

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LOL @ Francine fan base. Fan favorite……hahahhahahahahha. I can hear the booooos all the way up in chicago

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Could it be some sort of physical thing with him like an eye problem or something? Didn’t he have an eye injury a few years back? Maybe he’s just not seeing the ball like he used too or something too?

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Trade Freaky Franqueor for anything . Pay someone a zillion to take him. Please dont send him to Gwinnett. I am a Gwinnett fan and it would make me sick to see his sorry ass stinking up the team

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Anyone know when the last time the Cubs made it to a World Series?
I can’t remember either!???

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I remember back in late 2005, when Francoeur (name means Frenchie at heart) was leading the league with batting average with runners in scoring position, some reporters up north said he was the biggest mirage they had ever seen, and the bubble would burst. Now, I don’t know if they have some magic formula for determining who gets more squib hits or flares that fall, or if they simply made a Jeff Francoeur voodoo doll and filled it with pins, but they seem to have known their business way back then. If so, he should still be playing in Jackson, MS and the Braves should have bought a Pitch-Back to play right field until they could muster up the money to sign someone who could hit. Of course, one would think that was Garret Anderson (name means .250 hitter without power), but I think another Pitch-Back would hit about the same.

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Jeff has the tools to be an all star and he will be. Its just a matter of time. He deserves better, however, than what he is getting from the fickle fans. Lets give away this talent and watch as he goes elsewhere and this year or next or the following hits .310, 115 RBIs and 35 home runs with a golden glove to boot. He has proven that he can do that (his first year). I do think Pendleton has not been effective at helping JF so lets keep TP and dump Frenchy. Makes sense to me.

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How come everyone can see we need to get rid of Pendleton except the GM. Its that simple. Like someone said the only ones hitting consistanly is Chipper and Mac and they have their Dad’s as the coach. the rest just suck.Get rid of TP

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chbeyer: he deserves what he’s getting. fans arent being “fickle” with him. read the tea leaves, he isnt hitting, and he isnt hitting for power. he needs to be relegated or traded NOW.

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Trade Frenchie to Cleveland for their seagulls?

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My cousin works down at the GM plant (or used to). He was the quality control supervisor. He had goals to reach each month, meeting with all the laborers and telling them how important it was to build a good car, while demonstrating how each job should be done. One laborer kept welding the doors together wrong, so the doors leaked when it rained. People stopped buying GM cars, they fired my cousin, and the laborer is working for Ford now.

Moral of the story: Terry Pendleton cannot make any player hit for average, or hit home runs, if the player is incapable of remembering these instructions: “Watch the ball all the way into your bat. Try to catch the ball with your bat.” I believe Terry Pendleton first learned to mimic those instructions shortly after he was out of diapers. He just remembered. Francoeur (name means Frenchie with a heart) is looking at the limelights and is blinded to the balls he used to hit.

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I agree I would really hate to see frenchy go, I really believe he is going to be a player, but he is not helping us winn ball games. I laughed so hard at a recent blog that said we should send Frenchy to the plate without a bat for the first two pitch’s cause he would start an a bat 0 and 2 either way. I hate it but we need some changes big time. We have the best starters in the league through the first three and with Hanson soon four out of five, but ajc is right you cant win with one run a game

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What the hell did they sign him in the first place. The way he played last year he should have never been in right field this year. And they give him a good contract . The Braves hitting has choked for years. What the heck, Pittsburgh looks better then the Braves. For years the Brave pitchers have been outstanding only to lose because of the lack of offense.

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Jeff’s issue is patience at the plate (as well as afew other braves). If he relax and stop with this 1st pitch thing, especially when teh opposing pitcher ahs labored through 2 batters. Typically, this is when there are runners on 2nd and 3rd, Jeff steps up, swing at the 1st pitch, which si usally out of the strike zone and pops up. Each tiem time I die when this happens.

Part ways OR team him patience.

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I find it so interesting that a management level person – Terry Pendleton – had his feelings hurt that Jeff reached out to the Texas hitting coach. It seems to me that whatever Jeff has tried to do to improve his situation would be welcomed by his teammates and his coaches. From Glavine, Smoltz, now TP, can these people all be in their 40’s and whining like 8 year olds?

On the other hand, Jeff never tasted failure during his phenomenal rise as a local sports star. All of us have to face our limitations at some point in our lives, it is how we deal with those adversities that determine who we are as people. I would not trade him. I would send him back to the minors and give him the chance to recover his abilities out of the spotlight. Jeff needs to accept this, and grow up. He still has great possibilities as a ballplayer. He just needs to work harder and differently to recover.

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It is kind of embarrassing that everyone in baseball knows frenchy will swing at the first pitch almost every time and will always swing for one in the dirt on two strikes….

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I would hate to see Frenchy leave Atlanta, because I think he has potential to be a good player. But the stats are simple, he (and a few others) are consistently creating holes in our lineup. After Chipper and McCann, there’s no one that can consistently get basehits and drive in runs. There’s no one stealing bases (maybe Mclouth now, but he’s only one guy). There’s no hit and runs. The offense is stagnant and needs a change to jump start the players day in and day out. I love Terry Pendleton, but he’s not been getting it done the past 3 years. Bobby Cox is not making the best decisions anymore either. I think we’re going to have to have a coaching change (somewhere) if we want to get back into the form of winning and competing in this division.

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I truly feel that he needs a fresh start someplace else, and I hope he is happier and lives up to his immense potential. I would love to see him flourish in a new home, as I think he is a great guy.

All that said, I think its time to take a close look at Terry Pendelton and ask if some of the blame for the failure of some high profile Braves hitters should fall to him. Andruw Jones was on a Hall of Fame trajectory. Jeff Francouer, while younger, looked to be on a simliar path. Kelly Johnson was supposed to be a great hitter. Adam Laroche, Mark Derosa, Jordan Schaefer. Gregor Blanco, Brandon Jones….etc…. The list of players who seem to be falling short of thier potential under Pendelton is getting pretty long, and Andruw Jones and Jeff Francouer are some pretty high profile failures.

How many more young stars is he going to be allowed to ruin?

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JF has no trade value right now; there is no need to trade him because he won’t bring anything in return. So the answer is Gwinnett.

Jeff has the tools- he has performed before. I think the Bravos need to bring in a personal hitting coach and perhaps a sports psychologist and take one last crack at straightening him out at AAA. When he can perform consistently there, he can have one final shot in the Ted- and not before.

Jeff needs to learn some humilty and become coachable- his 3 day trip to AA showed that he was neither at that time. Until that happens, he will flounder. If his head gets straight, he has all the talent to be an All Star. It is just a matter of being willing to work for it, and that work needs to happen up I-85.

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I’m wondering why it always comes back to Jeff Francoeur? Is it because there is MORE expected of him than anyone else? When the team as a whole is struggling at the bat, why is it Jeff’s fault? What ABOUT the batting coach? There has to be SOME reason that Jeff went to the Texas Rangers for batting instructions during the winter; the problem IS that he has now dropped back into his old ways for the most part. Jeff is a talented baseball player with God given talent; that was shown during his first couple of seasons with the major league Braves. You can’t win games though when batters don’t run out possible hits or go after the balls hit toward them in the outfield (no one can say THAT about Francoeur – just ask some runner who has been thrown out at the plate from right field); you can’t win games when a second baseman constantly drops balls that would get an out, maybe two or when a shortstop doesn’t have his mind on getting the ball to whatever base a runner is approaching OR just holding the ball while an opposing runner goes to home plate. No, the trade of Francoeur would only prove his worth in the field, not improve the team. Neither he NOR Frank Wren handled the “send down” last year well and after hearing Bobby Cox’s role in the latest Wren fiasco of dumping Tom Glavine, it’s past time for him to go, too. Game after game, year after year I’ve watched Cox pull a pitcher who was doing well and putting in a non-relief pitcher that would give up the game. The Braves have not ONE consistent pitcher in their bullpen unless Medlen proves to be that. The acquisition of Nate McLoud seems to be a good one so far but who wants to bet that he’ll be resigned when the time comes? The whole Texiera thing stunk to high heaven when it was done with the top brass telling fans that he couldn’t have been resigned anyway – who knows about all that in advance? Nope, it’s not Francoeur’s fault and trading him to another team will do nothing for the Braves and probably not for him either. After all, he himself made the deal to accept the Braves offer in the beginning and he’s an asset to the team off the field as well – he presents them with good will PR that money can’t buy. It IS time for the Braves to look for a batting coach that actually teaches the struggling hitters what to do to correct their errors at the plate. I doubt that Jeff is a bad “student” – the Texas Rangers coach found something in him that worked so why can’t Pendleton resurrect that? Is there a case of pouting because Jeff didn’t use him this past winter? One has to wonder.

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Frenchy is not the only problem, Bobby Cox lost that game for them last night. Why take out a guy that has 12 strikeouts only 2 hits allowed and game tied going to the 9th. Oh I forgot …pitch count. Baloney. This whole pitch count thing has ruined starting pitchers. Even Vasquez said he could have went to the 9th so why the f*&k pull him? I don’t understand the way Bobby coaches sometimes. If the other team can’t figure the guy out leave him in. Let it be HIS ballgame to lose not some semi-closer.

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There is more pressure on Jeff to produce because he is a Right-Fielder. RF, like 1B, 3B and LF are positions where a team needs to get solid production. The up-the-middle positions have always been spots where you need defense first, and then offense. To have a RF who makes an out 72% of the time he comes up is just a lineup killer.

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IF we get rid of Frenchy he will be doing great for another team in 2 years. I’m sick of watching all our past players doing well for other teams!
Lets have a coach get the team to learn how to bunt, steal, move baserunners, situational hit and get their head in the game.
You don’t have to be a players coach all the time BC- winning makes players happy too!

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Phil McCrotch

June 12th, 2009
1:01 pm
Wow! I have had those same thoughts Phil. If you going to coach by the book then you do not need a high paid coach. Just someone who can read. I agree about TP. It is time for him to go.

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The Braves don’t do good or bad because of a hitting coach. What about their inability to run bases (which it terrible baserunning)? Fire the base running coach the answer? Maybe its the bullpen cather’s fault? Fire him? How about the third base coach not getting enough runners to third base? Let’s fire him too. AND, while we’re at it, fire Bobby Cox too.

Winning is not about coaching at the major league level. Leo Mazonne only sat and rocked in the dougout next to Bobby, while Smoltz, Glavine, Maddox, and a slew of young and older arms paraded into and out of Atlanta with the the Braves PAYING out the nose for hitters to make it easier for the pitchers to win games. Fred McGriff did not need a hitting coach to hit. Andrés Galarraga did not need a hitting coach to hit. Gary Sheffield did not need a hitting coach to hit. Edgar Renteria did not need a hitting coach to hit. J.D. Drew did ot need a hitting coach to hit. Julio Franco did not need a hitting coach to hit. Chipper Jones does not need a hitting coach. Until the roids mushed his mind, Andruw Jones did not need a hitting coach to hit.

The point is this: In baseball there are a bunch of old players that have strong needs to hang around and not go into the real world to work. They become the coaches and managers. They don’t get paid like the players, because they are just guys hanging around, with nothing really to do. By the time a player gets to the big leagues, its up to the player to produce IN SPITE OF THE COACHES. The coaches only have the spotlight on them when a player needs to be traded, or when the team becomes too cheap to buy better players.

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Every time I watch Jeff at the plate, its so predictable what he does. Swing at the first pitch, go after pitches out of the strike zone, not drawing walks, for starters. I don’t care where he goes, just get rid of him. He does remind me of Andruw Jones, who I was never a fan of. You didn’t want him at bat with runners on base because he wouldn’t come through, and Jeff does the same thing.
As for the lack of hitting, Terry Pendleton needs to go, too. Whatever he is doing, isn’t working. I am sick of great pitching performances being ruined by the inability of these pathetic hitters to help out.Moving hitters in the order won’t work, benching players wont work, and if these guys don’t get the job done, bring in some others who will. Kelly, Diaz, Garrett(who is a TOTAL BUST), Norton, and Jeff Bennett all need to be sent packing. For God’s sake, do something. Don’t just think that this situation is going to turn around because its not.

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I think they should keep him. Is he ever going to win a batting title? of course not. But neither is Garrett Anderson. At least Francouer is a very good defensive player, with decent speed. And I don’t know if anyone has noticed, but it seems every time he does hit a homer, it is a game winner (see Cubs game last week). Anderson on the other hand, let a fly ball fall just the other day that seemed to hang up in the air for minutes, yet he was still some 60 or 70 away from it. I don’t know if GA just doesn’t care (the “I am no longer in California” Syndrome) or is he just that slow. Doesn’t matter why, but this guy will cost the Braves several games this year with his defense alone. I say Kelly J is a better hitter than most give him credit for. Move him to LF to platoon w Diaz, and put Prado/Infante in at 2nd base. Francouer is not the whole problem, and unless they can find a way to get a Matt Holladay, he should be in there. I agree with a previous post that the Braves do not do the little things offensively like bunting, hitting behind runners, etc. to score a lot of runs.

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OK lets boycott the Braves until TP is gone!

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Do we really think Francoeur will fare better in another city? Atlanta is one of the most low-pressure cities to play in. How would the pressures affecting him now be lessened with a trade? Don’t we hold higher expectations for major-league players we acquire in a trade, because they should already be established in the majors? How would playing in a different city possibly be beneficial for Francoeur?

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I agree Tomy F-

Get rid of that old Fart of a manager who continues to get outmanaged everynight….Y in the world would u leave Bennett in the game long enough to give up the lead like cox did the other night….Just simply moronic. The braves def need a new Manager and new ownership. Until then u can expect what ur getting now which is absolutely nothing. The business like approach has def overstayed its welcome.

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mark you are dead on. a great athelete just not a great baseball player. ive never seen a hitter swing at more first pitches in all my years of watching baseball from little leauge on up.jeff has a meger 7 walks in all of his at bats. that says it all no patience at the plate.

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We do need better outfield production. The best outfielders at Turner Field are Ron Gant and Brian Jordan doing the pregame.

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And when is the last time we had a lineup with the same players in the same order for a week? Injuries cause this? Yes. Players needing a rest(McCann)? yes. But when is the last time you saw the Braves with the same guys in for over, let’s say, 3 games? (Excluding the pitcher obviously)I can’t remember. Back in the 90’s we had same players night after night. Heros if you will, but this seems to be “raise your hand if you want to play tonight?” “Ok, Norton, you were first so get in there with your .108 batting average.” WTF!!!

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RK- I am amazed at how many people dwell on that stat. It doesn’t matter how many times JF swings at the first pitch, its a pointless stat. If he feels that pitchers are consistently starting him off with hittable pitches, then why not swing at 75% of them? What really matters is that he’s only hitting .245, regardless of what pitch he finally connects with.

Regarding TP, we all had this same conversation about 2 weeks ago and I’ll state my point again. You can’t blame TP for all of the bad hitters without giving him credit for the good ones. I don’t care who’s daddy is a hitting coach. TP is the only hitting coach McCann has ever had “in the big leagues” and has TP ruined his swing? Its like you guys think that Chipper and McCann don’t ever work with TP in the cage. I’ll also throw this point out there- During Chipper’s big league career, his batting avg. is higher since TP became the hitting coach…You guys need to really think about what you’re saying before you throw TP under the bus.

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Mark, you make a very good point about Jeff Francoeur. When he was brought to the Major Leagues, everyone – the fans, the Braves and the media – expected a lot. His hot start didn’t help to dissuade those anticipations.

It could go nowhere but south from there.

I agree that the Braves won’t get much for him in a trade, but I also agree that if he is going to have any chance at a career without the pressure (and the memories of his struggles), it will be outside of Atlanta.

We have another Atlanta sports superstar who needs a chance to revitalize his career out of Atlanta – although for very different reasons.

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Just wondering: Based upon what’s ahead do you equate the three players named?
No way Frenchy is as important to the Braves as those two are to their respective teams!

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only RF’s with lower walk totals are Moss, Hermida, and Ross. Frenchy has 220 ab’s compared to their 127, 93, and 109AB’s

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Fire TP. Bottom line. Bobby is too loyal to his ex Braves stars.

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Simple, the Braves have other options…why not promote a farm hand. I mean, I think we know that Frenchy can do. Let’s see what someone else can do. Why not??

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Bank Walker- Are you really suggesting that the 2 top hitters for the Braves don’t do any work with the Braves hitting coach? I don’t know the answer to that question, but if its true, then its a real institutional problem and you have to start pointing the finger at Schuerholz for a lack on organizational control. MB, this issue about whether or not the better Braves hitters actually work with TP has been bantered around now for weeks. Can you shed some light here? I find it difficult to believe the TP has no instructional relationship with Chipper or McCann.

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JER- You claim “Fire Pendleton….when the Braves are as weak hitting as they are I don’t see Mr. Pendleton improving the hitters”

I’ll restate my earlier comment. Over Chipper’s lifetimein the MLB, his avg. is higher with TP as his hitting coach than without. He won the batting title last year and TP was hit batting coach..last year. You can’t ignore that. You CANNOT blame TP for poor hitters without CREDITING him for the good hitters.

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Volman, bring me Youkilas??? Are you kidding??? You think you are going to get a Youkilas for some AAA players, and a 20 year old pitcher at Myrtle Beach? I don’t think the Boston RedSox just fell off the turnip truck yesterday. Alot of you people think we can just offer up a trade for whatever we want to get rid of, and get an all-star line up in return? Youkilas would be great. So would Holladay. But not many teams are going to give you a $5 bill for a $1 bill.

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O’brien- I hate to admit it, but I’m starting to think there is a racial element at play on this post. Would you also say that Francouer blames his father for his hitting problems instead of Pendleton?

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I don’t see why you’d trade Francoeur. You won’t even get a bag of jockstraps for him. Send him down to the minors. If he doesn’t get his swing back, then we lose nothing (except maybe the not so hot prospect we could’ve gotten for him). If he does get it back, then great…maybe he’ll finally live up to his potential.

As for TP – while he’s not the cause of all these problems, I certainly don’t think he’s bringing about any solutions. I’d rather see him go.

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Agreed with everyone calling for a new hitting coach. Wren has showed that he can be cut-throat, he should fire TP. Maybe see if Chipper’s dad wants to coach? Who knows? But there’s got to be someone else.

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Since we have a group of players who are not hitting and since there are so many reason why they can’t be sent down to Gwinnett, pick the lowest performer each week and put him on the DL and bring one up from Gwinnett or any place else. Once a player attains a satisfactory level of proficiency, keep him. There is no truer test than competition.

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why is jeff so hardheaded. why can’t he understand that good hitters wait for the pitcher to make a mistake most of the time but jeff swings at the first pitch much too often.

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Wiilliam Bell- What if the stats showed that over the last 3 years, pitchers threw JF “down the middle” fastballs 75% of the time on the first pitch? Would you say he’s hardheaded then? We don’t have this type of data.. The Braves DO have this type of data. Cox is aware of the fact that JF swings at pitch #1 almost 50% of the time. Obviously, Cox doesn’t care or he’d bench him. That tells me that Cox or other braves stat guys see something that we don’t.

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Not to mention for the time being he’s still cheap.

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Welcome to the pool party, Bradley, where the rest of us have been saying for months that Francoeur needs to be traded for whatever we can get at the trade deadline. He is too stubborn to do what needs to be done to take it from the batter’s cage to the batters box, despite working with the supposed hitting guru in Texas. Frenchy’s troubles are not Pendleton’s fault. They are his own. He is not a student of the game when it comes to hitting. A long time ago Dave Winfield told John Olerud to videotape himself during a hot hitting streak and store it away to review when in a slump. I’ve yet to read anything about Frenchy studying pitchers. And its clear from what he does at the plate that all he wants to do when at bat is swing hard and pull everything. The Pirates’ rookie right-handed batting centerfielder Andrew McCutchen showed more plate discipline and the ability to take a pitch and hit it to the opposite field (both his triples in game one were to right center and right field) than Frenchy ever has.

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Francoeur used to have long at bats. Even when he made outs his first two years, he would foul lots of balls off, then hit a line drive at someone. Before Brian McCann went on the disabled list early this year, he was hitting .198. Of course, that was TPs responsibility, which he fixed by coaching McCann by telling him, “Get some eyeglasses son.” And, McCann listened to that advice, and now he’s hitting .350 since coming off the DL. Pendleton gets all the credit there. Now, I heard Pendleton tell Francoeur, “Watch the damn ball Jeff! You’re making me look bad!” Jeff just can’t keep his eyes open any more. I would enjoy seeing Francoeur hit 8-9 foul balls before a strike out on one in the dirt. That would prove he has his eyes open. Maybe Jeff needs glasses?

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I disagree that Frenchy can’t get his mojo back while in Atlanta. I just don’t think whatever his real problem is, has been addressed yet. And as long as it remains unaddressed, it’s baggage that will hurt him wherever it goes. He needs to fix whatever it is now – not start anew somewhere else.

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Someone called Franqeour a prospect. he was prospect several years ago.
He had potential. He is the biggest cccccccccry- baby of all time .
the only reason he was brought up is he cried because McCann was called
up before him. He is a washout,wannabee,never was, pack of BS. Please
trade or release him. Please do not send him to Gwinnett,I am Gwinnett fan. it would make sick to see FRENCHY Screw up that Team

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No. The Braves should not trade him right now. His value couldn’t be any lower. If a trade must happen, best it occur during the offseason.

Beware fans, many want to see “youngsters” play because our farm system is supposedly well stocked. Well this is what you can expect with some players. It would be really neat if everyone did well and never struggled, but that’s not baseball.

If the Braves had enough offense from other places, there would be no urgency to Francoeur’s situation. He would be seen as a defensive player with not much bat. But the team is desperate and so his troubles become more conspicuously.

We know he can produce better numbers, so it is not as if he has never shown ability. The problem with a trade is that the receiving club could get a very good RF for the next decade while the Braves get , well, not much. Then we’ll have blogs wondering if the Braves “gave up too soon on Francoeur?”

Now about Kelly Johnson….?

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god you people are dumb if you really think the hitting coach is to blame and Francine has no problems. I have beef with TP also but that is just stupid. The moron self proclamed he has gone back to his old ways WHICH ARE NOT WHAT HE HAS BEEN TAUGHT BUT WHAT HE IS TOO STUPID AND STUBBORN TO LET GO OF. His game isn’t MLB level. He can’t figure out what is wrond because his head is sutck so far up his a$$ thining he is the greatest thing since sliced bread because all of you morons fawn all over him. He’s not gonig to sleep with you daughters and and provide you a meal ticket. get over it.

He doesnt need to be traded, he just needs to not be in the line up for the Atlanta Braves. AAA Braves – ok, Rome – ok, Atlanta – HE!! NO. As Chipper alluded to last night hes and auto out just like everyone else 6-9.

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Mark

Love you man, but this is a garbage piece written just to stir the pot. If you had the money and time invested in something the Braves have in Jeff you don’t just give it away for nothing, you exhaust every option before you give up. I do believe the fans are being cheated by having to watch this guy learn on the job, so my solution is simple, put his butt in Gwinnett until you have no option left but to bring him back to Atlanta (I believe he can be sent down this year but has to be back up sometime next year, not exactly sure on his contract). Just like stocks you never sell low and you never buy high. Besides with Hanson and Medlen with the big club, there has to be a draw for Gwinnett right. I want to have Jeff on my team when he gets it right, there are a lot of late bloomers on big clubs right now, Ludwick, Cruz, hell Raul Ibanez didn’t stick with the M’s until he was 30. Give him 2 seasons in the minors then re-evaluate.

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Actually, I agree with the “Fire Terry” AND “Trade/Cut Jeff” factions.

Jeff is a younger-than-usual has-been.

Terry is a never-was as a batting coach.

ONLY hope for Frenchy is to bring in Wellman. How could any pitcher bear-down on a hitter who’s bawling and squalling at the plate? They might even pitch under-hand to the weeping Frenchman….

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I think Jeff caught a break when Shafer got injured — with McLouth here now, it’s only a matter of time before Shafer gets his bat going and comes back to the majors. Push McLouth over to right and send Frenchy packing.

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[...] (Previous installment: Should the Braves trade Jeff Francoeur?) [...]

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It’s funny, Terry Pendleton has been the Braves hitting coach since 2002. Nobody had a problem with the man until this year. Go figure in this instant gratification generation.

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I agree totally with Art, you can have one lame duck in your lineup but right now we have 3 (GA, KJ, and Jeff). We have 3 guys (Jeff, GA, Diaz)in the OF who are no better than a 4th OF on most good teams.

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I went back and look at stats over the last 10 years or so and I notice that the strikeout total keeps going up. As a hitting intructor aren’t you suppose to teach patients at the plate. I say Kepp Frenchy and fire Terry Pendleton. We all know that will not happen because he has his nose so far up Bobby’s rear. I think the Braves need to find all Francoeur Franks and get them back to the games. I haven’t seen the much over the last year and a half. Get that blood flowing seeing the fans pulling for him, maybe that will help. Again I am for FIRING PENDLETON. Stupid comment why not come to me. I wonder why

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dude, you are NUTS!!!

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It has become far too painful to watch this team. I’ve just got to quit for a while. When Bobby stings together Francoeur, Johnson, Anderson and the pitcher’s spot, we have an offensive black hole that no team can survive. Spacing them out is almost as bad. With the pitching we have had this year, our record is criminal.

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Get rid of Norton berfore even thinking about Frenchy.

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Norton was released by the M’s because he was doing horribly last year and the Angel’s never made any attempt to resign GA. These 2 guys are old and busted that is not TP’s fault. If if you blame TP for Jeff and KJ’s failures then you have to credit him for Jeff improving from a .260 hitter to a .293 hitter between his 2nd and 3rd year. In 07 KJ hit .276 and last year he hit .287 that is an improvement. Now I think these guys stopped listening and thought they had “made it”. They both need to be humbled by a stint in the minors and learn how to play ball again, and work hard.

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Yes, G. Anderson is the problem not prince Jeff. He is the one making Jeff look bad. Not Jeff’s low AVG, OBP, inability to make contact or inability to play small ball. It’s definitely GA’s fault. And some how he was doing it all the way from Los Angeles all of last year! That Jerk!!!

Cause i mean, duh, if everyone else just produced better Jeff wouldn’t look so bad. I can’t believe they wouldn’t do better on his behalf. This team shoudl jsut be renamed the Atlanta Jerks.

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If the Braves had a real owner, and not just some far off corporation, John Schuerholz, Frank Wren and Bobby Cox (along with his coaching staff) would all have been sent packing long ago. The real issue with the Braves is at the top.

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Kelly may be good in a very strong line-up but he can’t hit enough to play on this team. He is so streaky that it just kills us. It would be OK if he was a glod glove 2B but he misses some realy easy ones. For now, since we have the no-hustling, no-producing GA in left, I would release GA, put Kelly in left and Prado or Infante at 2B. And for gosh sakes send JF to Gwinnett until, or if, if he can start acting like a big league hitter at the plate. take a strike and then swing at one in the dirt. HS guys do better. TP and Jaramillo can talk to him till he’s purple but if he won’t listen then it’s on him. Remember when marquis thought he knew it all and wouldn’t listen to Leo? We got rid of Marquis. Well, it’s time to send Jeff “It’s all about me” Francoeur to another city, even if it’s only in Gwinnett.C’mon Frank, make it happen

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You are an idiot and the only one who keeps bring it up – comapre his stats to K. Johnson or the new star left fielder

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I would like the Braves to trade TP for the legally blind hitting instructor I recently saw on TV. Terry was a good player but the results say he is a terrible hitting coach. Sorry TP as you were a favorite as a player…

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Oh yeah, pack up Kelly Johnson too.

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You haven’t seen much football in 25 years if he is the best high school player you have watched?!?

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Okay as a Brave fan I must be honest, the Braves are boring to watch. They lack a passion for the game. We need to bring back characters and speed. I sick of waiting for the 3 run homer that rarely comes. My suggestion would be to go young. Tommy Hason, Jair Jurrigens, and the newly drafted lefty will make a fine young pitching staff. Brian McCann, Yunel Escobar, Kelly Johnson, the newly acquired centerfielder, Jordan Shaffer, and Jason Heyward. Trade Chipper and the older pitchers and stock up on young talent. It worked in Florida. Yes, we will struggle for a couple of seasons, but the team will excite the fan base.

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I have posted for a while the PED issue and Francouer. Look at the pictures. Without the juice he’s just flailing away at air. Its like the little kid that shuts his eyes as he swings as hard as he can.

Jason Giambi is the only player I know that went off the juice and while he was bad for a while he came back and is player decent.

Jeff can do this also.

You dont’ trade him unless he requests it.

Send him to AA for a while, let him get comfortable, if he improves move him up to AAA and come September 1st, if he’s doing good then bring him up when we expand the roster. That would give him half of June and all of July and August. If he doesn’t improve with that then let him go.

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Trade Frenchy, dump Wren, sign Vick. Everyone is happy.

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heres what I think and I have said this time and time again. It starts with Liberty Media and there carelessness for this baseball team.. Its Time for the Ownership to GET RID of the junk and Garbage that has plagued this team for the last 4 years. The Junk I’m referring too is Not Jeff Francouer its Frank Wren, Bobby Cox and Terry Pendleton. Those 3 guys have lost it. Frank Wren is a big joke of a GM who doesnt know how to handle situations and signs players that are worthless to this team. Bobby Cox is long overdue to canned. 4 years of pathetic baseball. Is he ever held accountable NO.. From his managing decisions to his awful lineups and callups to his style of baseball is so 80’s. and 3rd Terry Pendleton is NOT a hitting coach.. Get someone who knows the ins and outs of a true swing to correct and give suggestions and a new look on the way you approach hitting.. Those 3 guys are a joke and embarrassment to this team,along with the no seen owners… thats who is responsible.. Its not Jeffs entirely. Everyone needs to be held accountable and there is No such leadership from anyone of those 4 people I mentioned. This Team NEEDS a New GM, Manager and Hitting Coach. People with the will to win and the heart and passion on the field and to have respect toward his players and correct them and let them know whos in charge and hold them accountable. instead of babyiing them like Wren Cox and TP do.. its a shame this once great franchise has been dragged through the mud the last 4 years with awful performances and mediocre baseball.. US Braves Fans deserve more than That. Until there told to hit the road . Thats what we have to live with…

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In all seriousness folks, the Braves need some Black and/or Latino players with speed and power. This is not meant to be racist. The Braves will continue to lose without this addition to the lineup. If you don’t believe it, just check out the number of Black and Latino players that were on the team when they won 14 titles in a row. Name a winning team that that does not have a Black or Latino with these credentials.

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I’m in agreement. It would be better for both parties at this point.

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Frenchy got his poor little feelings hurt when the Braves sent him to the minors. Boo hoo, why did he think he was above being sent down. The only mistake the Braves made in doing so was waiting too long to do it and then not leaving him until he had corrected his bad habits.

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many of you beat around the bush too much. With regards to players who perform poorly, the attitude of “let’s stick with him” has killed this organization for years, and has greatly hindered our chances of competing. So here’s a big “Thank You” to you people and the organization.

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Braves Team Batting Average

2001 .260 9th in NL
2002 .260 9th in NL
2003 .284 1st in NL
2004 .270 4th in NL
2005 .265 6th in NL
2006 .270 2nd in NL
2007 .275 4th in NL
2008 .270 3rd in NL

Now what were you people saying about Terry Pendleton?

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While a trade would be nice, I [like some others here] feel that JF doesnt have any real value for a trade; if we DID trade him, we’d be lucky to land some lesser prospects at best. Jeff just needs to focus on the basics, and maybe talk more with Chip and Brian to get back into the swing of things.

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To say that I, as most Braves fans, am furious with this entire situation would be the understatement of the century. I have been saying for the past 2 1/2 years that Terry P is our problem. Our hitting has been terrible for years, and if you look at our collective BA’s over the past 3 years it has steadily fallen. Bring back Don Baylor or any other warm body, but Terry MUST GO!!! I know Bobby is loyal to the very end, and I actually love that about him, but enough is enough. I would be saddened to see Frenchy turn it around in another uniform, especially when I think he can be fixed.

Let me throw this crazy (admitedly a homer “fantasy baseball” solutioin) idea…..

Call up Texas and get Josh Hamilton. Give up 3 TOP TIER prospects and bring in Hammy! He is still under abritation for 2 more years, and I am sure you could lock him up to a long term deal to stay in one place. Can you imagine Hamilton in RF, Schaefer in CF, and McClouth in LF. OMG the deffense alone would be NUTS!! Not to mention they would all be young and around for a long time!

* Last thought – Release, fire, kick to the curb G. Anderson!

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If Terry Pendleton was the “problem”, then why have Chipper, McCann, and Escobar not been “affected”? Are you saying that Chipper, McCann, and Escobar are doing well “despite” having TP as a hitting coach? If so, then the assumption would have to be that if the Braves had a “good” hitting coach, then Chipper, McCann, and Escobar would be hitting “even better” then they are now?

B.S., here’s a news flash for you TP haters out there: if it looks like sh__, if it smells like sh__, then it must be SH__! No hitting coach can turn sh__ into gold. When it comes to hitting, Jeff Francoeur is SH__!

Sure, Franceour can gun a runner down like he did in the bottom of the 3rd. However, with runners on 2nd and 3rd, one out in the top of the 4th……Franceour has a terrible at-bat and ends up striking out. So when you look at the “net”, Franceour ends up costing the Braves one run in that scenario. That scenario is all too common when it comes to Franceour.

Simply put, Jeff Franceour will NEVER be a good Major League hitter. Bench him and use him as a defensive replacement like Bobby did on Tuesday…..or send him to Triple A.

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Now that at-bat is one of the MAIN reasons why Franceour will NEVER be a good Major League player. That pitch HUNG up there. It had “please tattoo me to the cheap seats” WRITTEN all over it. Yet, it goes to the warning track.

Not only does Franceour swing at slop…but he does nothing with the hangers that are supposed to be driven to the left field seats.

He threw out one runner, has stranded 6 runners in his last 2 at-bats. Do the math.

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We jump on Frenchy b/c he was bad last year as well, but most of the team suck offensively this year. No discipline, no approach, just hacking and stumbling their way through an at-bat. I say, since you arent going to get anything for him anyway, keep him and send him to AAA for the rest of the year to learn about hitting with a chance to resurrect his career.

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Mark Bradley………….I would send Franceour to Gwinnett and start Matt Diaz in right field, until Frank Wren can hopefully make a trade for that elusive right handed power hitting right fielder. Matt Diaz isnt the long term answer in right field. However, I believe if Bobby were to play him for 2 weeks straight in right field, Matt Diaz would put up better numbers than Franceour has the past 2 weeks.

A little something from Diaz until Wren can swing a trade is much better than getting nothing from Franceour.

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Gutsy title: Should the Braves trade Jeff Francoeur?

Wow. You have some brass ones, my friend.

What’s your next article? Should child murderers go to jail? Should the Earth remain in orbit around the Sun? Should women be allowed to have children?

I can’t wait for your next exploration into the obvious.

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Mark:

Remember Ron Gant? He was in a slump so bad they sent him back to A ball,but he worked his way back up and had many great years before he and his motorcycle had a meeting with a tree. Send Frenchy back down and let him start over. The talent did not just disappear.
The truth is if the Braves were winning no one would suggest we trade him, even the way he is hitting now. But with some many other holes in the line up some got to take the heat.
The second half of last year aside I have never though Kelly Johnson was a everyday hitter. Johnson’s stats are just as bad a Jeff why is not one calling him out. And don’t get me started on Garrett Anderson, at least Jeff plays the out field, I own sheep the can cover more grand the Garrett. Kotchman a great fielder but does not have have the power numbers you want from a first basement, especially with sheep in the outfield.
If you trade Jeff who are going to put out there that is any better. Gregor Blanco? He was far worse the Jeff last year and not as good in the outfield. Perhaps you want to give Jordan try. NOT!

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Paul Lentz…it feels like last year I had to carry the Jeff torch all alone, glad to have you step up this year and keep posting b/c some of these people just don’t get.

However, the great majority are knowledgeable baseball fans on this matter. Over 70% have spoken…Jeff doesn’t need to be on the 25 man major league roster. Trade him, option him to AAA, put him on the DL (with some made up injury like they just did Norton…sprained ankle my a&&, more like hitting a robust CORKY MILLER like .098!)

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you are right about this

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Another great headline by the AJC: “Should these stars be traded?”

Francoeur is a star now? Good one.

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Let’s be honest here. It’s baseball where skill is not neccessary to be good. These players spend 95% of all innings standing around and the few times a ball is actually hit in their direction it will take minimum effort to catch the ball. Basically, this sport can be played by anyone with arms and legs. Trade him for a lesser player and get the same results. It’s 2009, does anyone care about baseball anymore? I would say NO! The “sport” lost its spunk 10 years ago. The major sports are Football, Basketball, Soccer, Hockey, Tennis and dodgeball. I think baseball comes just behind cricket in the worst sports in the world.

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all of you are a bunch of idiots. If you were so smart then why arent you running a major league team instead of working for minium wage like most of you, losers.

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logic wins out again wow

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We trade based on potential, goobers. someone will snatch him up. Can we get a decent player for him? Depends on how good we can negotiate. At this point I’d take my chances. Let him go so he has a chance to start again and fix what’s between his ears.

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As for trading Franceour I think it would be a mistake because first we are not going to get anything for him as this time. Also if we are trading because of lack of performance we had better start with some others who are not contributing as much such as Norton,Kelly Johnson and Garret Anderson. I know Frenchy is not hitting like expected but he still is a great right fielder, runners are very leary about taking extra bases with his arm and when they do like last night he saved at least one run and maybe more if the runner was safe and the inning goes on. Who ever heard of a player like Norton holding down a spot when they are hitting 0.98. Anderson is so slow and lazy in left so he has to hit or he is one big liability and Kelly is average at best at second base and hitting for a lower average than Franceour at the present time.

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Everyone expected too much too soon from Frenchy. I for one think he is a very good ball player and will again play that way. He proved last night he can save runs with his play in the field and over time and a good batting coach he’ll once again hit. Fans in Atlanta expect superstar play immediately and it don’t happen that way in baseball. Just look at the list of young talent the braves got rid of and what they are today. As far as hockey and basketball WHO CARES.

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Please, Please, Please, Jeff Francouer is not, and I repeat, is not a Star!!!!

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Just a thought, but you can’t “trade” a coach.

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I have to say, this Paul Lentz fellow seems to have a fairly knowledgable and pragmatic approach to the situation. Let’s bring him in as a unbiased, independent consultant for the rest of the season. If someone stinks, he can say so and not have to worry about repercussions.

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It’s too early to pull the plug on Francouer. He has a lot of potential, is a great outfielder and I think he will work out his hitting problems before season’s end. What does TP’s feelings got to do with this decision? If I was a professional baseball player, I’d go to whatever coach I felt could help me the most (especially in the offseason). Also, with his hitting woes, he ain’t good trade bait. Face it, this team’s not going to the playoffs this year—so let’s keep building for the future. The starting pitching, once Huddy returns, will be great. Once Omar returns, I think the offense will start clicking again (as it was before he was injured). If Frenchy figures it out, the offense will get well fast. I can’t figure out why that idiot Wren paid all that money for Anderson and Kawakami. They are the ones who need to go. Be patient folks, and the sun will shine on the Braves again.

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1. It’s not his ego. He just can’t hit. He never could. Pitchers have caught up with his deficiencies and now he is not major league worthy. It happens. Let’s just call his first few years great athleticism but we all can see how far that can take a player. Michael Jordan, one of the greatest athletes who ever lived, couldn’t play baseball. There is more to hitting a baseball than brute strength or what is between a person’s ears. Some guys just can’t hit and they don’t belong in baseball. Period.
2. MLB players are supposed to be able to hit at this level. No amount of coaching or prodding is going to change that. You can tweak a few things but you can’t completely dismantle a player’s swing and stance and rebuild him. Not going to happen.
3. The only reason Francoeur is still with this team is because we could find a taker and we don’t have a replacement–NOT because there is a big hope he will rebound!

Let’s face it: This team is not going anywhere this year. It would take an absolute miracle with this many holes in the line up. Now explain to me how it is going to get much better: Chipper will be one year older and there is no heir apparent. We will still have holes in RF, LF, 2B, and the bench (if Infante plays well the rest of the season–fine– but that doesn’t fix our problems), and there are no immediate call ups from the minors. Heyward may make the team by late next season (call up to AA this year, AAA next year, then the majors perhaps?). But he may not perform at a high level so he may not help much. You never know about rookies.

Look at the guys who you want to build this team around: Brian McCann, the aging and brittle Chipper Jones and? Escobar is great but he sure is having some mental lapses at SS and besides, he is not going to be hitting 25 homers any time soon with that swing. He is a gap hitter. Then we have McLouth who is pretty good, but he is no franchise player.

Trade Vasquez or Kawakami? Who would you get in return? The team still has some pretty big holes to fill. Could be 2011 before we are true contenders.

So yes, I say trade Francoeur but be prepared to trade others and start over. I would love to see us make some trades for some younger guys and take a few hits in the win column just so that we can build this team back up.

We could have contended this year but it would have taken rebounds from Johnson, Kotchman, Francoeur, and Anderson, and for Schafer to fulfill his destiny. Guess that was too much to ask. Who knows, maybe Schafer will come back next year with a vengence and we can move McLouth to RF, Johnson either comes back or we trade him and let Prado take his place. There are too many question marks going into next year to make me think that this team can make it to the playoffs–because we had just as many question marks before this year!!

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The problem is in order to trade him so one would have to want him.

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I think the Braves issues are deeper than just Jeff. Look at the recent young prospects that were doing so good at the A,AA,AAA levels and come up to the Braves only to falter down the road. Then if we trade them, look how good they do elsewhere on other teams. The batting coach has to be looked at, we continue to struggle especially against sub-par teams.

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YES, Trade JF as soon asp. Cox needs to go also.

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if the pitcher rolls the ball on the ground {frenchy} would strike at it.terry p. reminds me of a big gorilla sitting in the dugout eating his sunflower seed.

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Why not stick Diaz out in RF and leave him there? Why platoon two guys in LF who are each hitting 270-280 and keep a guy in RF everyday who is hitting 240? — Wren, You’re Kidding Right?

I can’t figure out why they don’t make that move either. The only possible thing I can see keeping them from doing that is that it would take the level of Defense in the outfield down considerably. But I think I’d rather have the bat.

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WELL WELL WHATS THIS?MIKE WOODSON TAKES THE HAWKS TO THE NEXT LEVEL, THE PLAYOFFS. HE GETS CRITICIZED, AND PEOPLE IN ATLANTA WANT HIM FIRED. I DON’T HEAR TOO MUCH ON BOBBY COX BEING FIRED DISPITE HIS CONSTANT FAILURES.HIS STUBBORNESS TO KEEP KELLY JOHNSON AND YUNNEL ESCOBAR ON THE FIELD IS KILLING THE TEAM. LEAVE JEFF FRANCOER ALONE COX AND MANAGEMENT FAIL TO SURROUND THE NEEDED HITTERS AROUND HIM. HE IS NOT THE PROBLEM.THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, SINCE LEO MAZZONE LEFT THE TEAM AND PITCHING STAFF HAS NOT BEEN THE SAME. BUT COX STUBBORNESS HAS BEEN THE MAIN CULPRIT.HE MANAGES WITH HIS HEART MORE THAN WITH HIS HEAD NOW.

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cc your an idiot, im pretty sure we just brought in nate mclouth, apparently an all star center fielder who everyone is so excited about, and his average is only 4 points higher than jeff, yet jeff is the only one talked about in the lineup…over the past few games he has shown he’s making adjustments and is starting to make better contact which will only result in him regaining his swing

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Too bad about Frenchy. Great looking, local guy with a big warm smile. What`s not to like? Oops! He just struckout with runners on (again} and looked bad doing it. Doesn`t somebody on the Braves know how to fix this problem? Maybe they don`t notice all those empty seats means their fans aren`t very happy with the current team.

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Humpty Dumpty had a great fall, and all the King’s horse’s asses…….

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The matter is payroll. Trading is one thing, but trading for quality goes hand in hand with payroll. In order for the Braves to trade for someone who brings value, they have to clear payroll. Who ya gonna give up? Vazquez? Hudson? Kawakami? One of those guys would have to be in any package to get a quality, power right-handed bat. The lesser of two evils is to hold on to Frenchy and hope he starts hitting for power. This team has plenty of offense. You can’t point the spotlight at just one guy. You can hide Jeff’s power outage if the other eight hitters are gettng it done. They’re not!!! If you’re not a power ball team, then you have to play small ball and Bobby won’t play SMALL BALL! He keeps waiting for the 3 run homer. It ain’t happinin with these guys. When’s Bobby gonna wake up and smell the coffee?!

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The sad thing is Jeff Francoeur has so much talent and his arm in right field is perhaps the best in the game! Its too bad he swings at everything like a little league player. If he could only learn a little patience at the plate and only swing at strikes he would become the player he is capable of being. I would much rather see him strikeout looking than looking like a fool swinging at pitches two feet out side of the zone. You say he needs to change and go to a different team will help. I know that you all are wrong! It will not matter if he goes to a different team because until he gets that he has to be patient at the plate and wait for his pitch to hit his batting will always stink!

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I agree completely he should be traded although I am amazed that the so-called hitting coaches he has (Pendleton or Jaramillo) haven’t identified a basic batting flaw that is easily correctable. Specifically, Jeff has what is known as a “hitch” in his swing. When the ball leaves the pitcher’s hand, Jeff takes the bat back ever so slightly, i.e., he’s moving the bat backwards instead of beginning a forward motion towards the pitcher. As a result he can’t get the bat through the hitting zone quick enough, which is why he tends to hit everything to right field. I had a hitch when I played Little League. My coach corrected it and I hit fine thereafter, even leading the league in hitting when I played Pony League at age 16. In short, get rid of the hitch and Jeff will start hitting again.

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Why trade him for nothing. Send him to AAA to get himself together and if he doesnt like it too bad he can suck it up and deal with it.

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Frenchy needs to stay. He’s not having the greatest season but hes still producing in clutch situations, like against the cubs a few weeks back. He is a very streaky hitter, and right now he is on a role. I think that Terry Pendleton needs to do his job and work with him more. Jeff Francoeur is the most energetic player in the braves lineup, and no matter how bad he is doing, i always have a good feeling when he is at the plate. I think that the Braves best answer would be to unload garret anderson, and keep matt diaz there untill jason heyward or jordan schafer is ready for the bigs.

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Francoeur is one of my favorite players and has been since his meteoric rise in 2005. I think I still have the SI with him on the cover somewhere around here. However, I do believe that a fresh start would be of benefit to him. Send him to Gwinnett…or trade him…or put him in the clean-up spot and tell him, once again, “you’re our guy, go, man!” He still hits well with two outs and has had a few at bats at clean-up this year and done pretty well. Like Yogi said, “half of baseball is all mental” (or something like that). Maybe a confidence boost will be what he needs. If BC doesn’t have the guts to try that, do the trade or AAA.

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I think i’ve seen this somewhere before…but it’s not bad at all

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To trade Jeff Francouer is an awful decision. I will NEVER attend another Braves game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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