McLouth: Did Braves seize a moment or squander the future?
The big trade inspires big discussion
Here’s the kind of sentence no fan likes to read: “Starting with the July 2007 trade for Mark Teixeira, and including the December trade for Javier Vazquez as well as Wednesday’s trade for center fielder Nate McLouth, Atlanta has made three prospect-for-veteran trades that would pretty much gut your average farm system.” That’s the appraisal (link requires registration) of Matt Meyers in ESPN The Magazine. But wait.
Meyers also writes: “Because the Braves are so good at developing their own talent, this trade doesn’t cripple them like it might other teams. However, they have given up a boatload of talent … and yet they haven’t been to the playoffs since 2005. Teixeira is gone, Vazquez is still inconsistent, and McLouth isn’t a superstar. It’s hard to shake the feeling that these three recent prospect-for-veteran deals won’t come back to haunt them in the next few seasons.” (Buzz editor’s note: Meyers writes “won’t,” but in context of the article I believe he means “will.”)
Meanwhile, Cliff Corcoran of SI.com credits the Braves for seizing an opportunity in the NL East. But this is his take on McLouth: “An asset at the plate, but he’s not a true impact player.” Corcoran’s conclusion: “This could prove to be a deal in which there is no loser — neither team gave up something they couldn’t afford to lose — but if the Braves aren’t playing baseball in October, it could be, in a literal sense, one in which there’s no real winner.”
The Texas Rangers stand as a case study of what can happen when you’re on the other end of a propects-for-veteran trade (requires registration), writes Christina Kahrl of Baseball Prospectus. Writes Kahrl: “It’s fair to suggest that the sheer quantity of quality added in the deal has made a significant difference for the Rangers, while also coming well shy of propelling the Braves into the postseason.”
Loading ...Well, now. These wouldn’t seem rave reviews. But I think the length of McLouth’s contract — he’s locked up through 2012 — tips the balance toward the Men of Wren. They had to have a bat and a center fielder, and they got both long-term. And they didn’t give up Tommy Hanson or Jason Heyward to do it.
Was J-J-J-Joe hurting all spring?
There was likewise much discussion over Joe Johnson’s underwhelming playoff performance, but Michael Gearon Jr., one of the Hawks’ several owners, said in an interview with J. Scott Trubey of the Atlanta Business Chronicle that Johnson suffered from “an undisclosed foot injury the second half of the season.” And here we thought the guy was just tired.
Speaking of the Hawks …
In its latest mock draft, The Hoops Report has the Hawks taking Ty Lawson of North Carolina in Round 1. In his latest mock, Sean Deveney of Sporting News Today has them taking Jeff Teague of Wake Forest.
But not all point guards are created equal. Chad Ford of ESPN.com rated those available and had Teague No. 6 among PGs and Lawson No. 9 (requires registration), which wouldn’t necessarily be the way I’d see it. (Ford has Eric Maynor of VCU No. 8.) And sure enough, Ford has the Hawks taking Teague (requires registration) with the 19th pick in his latest mock.
And who does NBAdraft.net have the Hawks taking? Not a point guard, but Tyler Hansbrough. If that happens, you’ll hear the boos all the way to Chapel Hill.
One thing more: NBAdraft.net no longer has Gani Lawal on its 2009 board. He’s listed instead as the 20th pick in the 2010 draft. Does that mean he’s returning to Georgia Tech? There has, it should be said, been no official announcement. But it’s enough to make you go, “Hmmm.”
The Georgia Bulldogs find a leader
In an interview with Matt Hayes of Sporting News Today, Mark Richt said that, in meetings with his players after spring practice, he asked each for the name(s) of the team leader(s). Said Richt: “They could write one guy or five guys, and 107 guys wrote Joe Cox.”
The Georgia Bulldogs found a discrepency
Esteemed former colleague Mark Schlabach of ESPN.com has found, through an open records request (a Schlabach staple) that Georgia signee Robert Dozier’s score of 1,260 on his SAT back in December 2003 raised enough concerns that he was asked to re-take the test. When he did, in June 2004, he scored 720. Georgia denied his application for admission two months later.
Dozier, of Lithonia, wound up at Memphis and started at forward on the team that came within an eyelash of the 2008 NCAA title. He figures to be taken in Round 2 of the NBA draft.
And before you start saying, “Aha! Another Jim Harrick recruit!”, it should be noted that Dennis Felton was Georgia’s coach in December 2003.
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103 comments Add your comment
Baba O'Riley
June 8th, 2009
6:51 am
I’ve yet to find a baseball fan (not a Braves fan) that doesn’t think the Braves stole McLouth from the Pirates.
Bill
June 8th, 2009
6:57 am
Good stuff Mark.I still believe this is a Braves team too flawed to be playing in the postseason.They will finish between 77 and 84 wins.
While blame can be laid at the feet of Frank Wren,the real fault lies at the very top.If ownership doesn’t care that will filter through the entire organization.No way you or anyone else can tell me Liberty Media cares.
mitch
June 8th, 2009
7:09 am
Mr. MB–did you see in the paper where the Braves won yesterday? Eight to something. Six or seven, I think. It’s in the paper this morning. Your pal, Mitch
Mitch
June 8th, 2009
7:09 am
Mark, I dont agree with you about the McLouth deal. I think that the Braves had to do something. Andruw Jones is gone, Gregor Blanco cant be here, apparently because the orginization doesnt feel he’s ready to be, and Jordan Schafer was pitiful offensively. What was Frank to do? Continue to run Jordan out there, even though the guy wasnt hitting a lick?
Yes, we gave up some good prospects for Mcclouth, but we also got an affordable player, who is locked up for nearly four years, who hits for power, in a power starved lineup. I like the Mcclouth deal.
Since last winter, Frank has been aggressive, and has made some good trades. If this team could only hit a little bit, maybe we can get into the race for the wild card, or division.
Mitch
mitch
June 8th, 2009
7:12 am
Mr. MB–that second “Mitch” ain’t me. It’s somebody else. Your pal, Mitch.
NCBravesFan
June 8th, 2009
7:24 am
I think it’s hard to fault the McLouth trade in terms of how long we have him under contract/control, how badly he was needed for the OF and what we gave up to get him. Perhaps Morton will turn into a reliable and consistent starter, but I wonder whether he has the makeup & personality to go along with his “stuff” to stick around anywhere for a long period of time.
As for the larger issue, I really wish the Braves would have taken a mulligan late last year & this year and worked (more) aggressively to acquire prospects by trade. But we are where we are I guess, and there’s no reason we can’t deal players like Vazquez & McLouth away if it becomes clear we can’t win with this crew.
BRAD
June 8th, 2009
7:34 am
You can’t get something for nothing—Braves had a need and they found an affordable solution. Next, they have to do something about a right fielder. Everytime the right fielder bats, I exspect to see impatience that you find in a little leaguer, and unforetunately, I always right.
mitch
June 8th, 2009
7:49 am
Mr. MB–I meant to say somebody else with the same name as mine. I guess it’s the same because it’s spelled the same as mine. Who can tell for sure? Your pal, Mitch
Mark Bradley
June 8th, 2009
7:50 am
Can’t tell the Mitches without a scorecard. What will become of this blog?
mitch
June 8th, 2009
7:53 am
Mr. MB–we’re zinging right along today. The NC braves fan let out that we are where we are, and Brad fired off with the idea that you can’t get something for nothing. Then, there’s my offerings. Your pal, Mitch
Roswell Ed
June 8th, 2009
8:00 am
The Braves have plenty of talent down on the farm and I believe they are Infante and a right fielder away from contending for a spot in the World Series.
Who cares about basketball and who is Joe Johnson? Let me guess does he have more than 5 tattoos? Funny how we all thought Rodman was a freak back in the day and now he would be in the norm and Lawson won’t be therewhen the Hawks pick.
If Jim Herrick were the coach wanna bet that guy wasn’t playing in Athens?
Let me get this STRAIGHT. The Dawgs were voting for Cox??????????
Visit me at the funniest site on the web
http://www.LibertarianHumor.com
Mark Bradley
June 8th, 2009
8:01 am
Yes, and we had Baba O’Riley hitting leadoff. Just like on “Who’s Next.”
Roswell Ed
June 8th, 2009
8:01 am
It is quit the MITCHAPALOOZA isn’t it.
http://www.LibertarianHumor.com
matt_T
June 8th, 2009
8:16 am
If trading away your Vets for prospects is so smart, then why haven’t the Pirates had a winning season in 15+ years?
Larry
June 8th, 2009
8:19 am
Trades and ownership are no the central reason for this team hovering at or around .500 for three seasons as this team still has one of the top payrolls in the league. The central reason is Bobby Cox!
In the end,
it will not matter,
with Bobby Cox,
as the manager!
1-14 all time in the last game and series of the postseason.
Larry
June 8th, 2009
8:23 am
Mark,
Seriously, and I’ve asked this from DOB but he doesn’t have the courage to discuss this so he can retain privileges to the Braves’ clubhouse and free food, why has no reporter demonstrated the courage to discuss the ability of Bobby Cox’s in game decisions on pitching, lack of aggressiveness, or anything for that matter?
Is there a fear of retribution?
Mark Bradley
June 8th, 2009
8:26 am
Good point, Matt.
Any Name But Mitch
June 8th, 2009
8:32 am
Which prospects that the Braves have traded away to Texas have been such impact players? Sure we traded a lot of “POTENTIAL” away to get Tex, but if we would have made a deep run into October, the GM would have looked like a genius! I don’t see the big deal if Salty and the others aren’t All-Stars, and if we had depth at their positions (McCann, Hanson, Heyward etc), then who cares?
The Grinch
June 8th, 2009
8:33 am
I agree with those who think we robbed the Pirates. Morton had good stuff, but he was tentative and unlike Medlen didn’t seem to be getting it. Who here had him cracking the rotation anytime soon, if at all? Not in the next three years, anyway. Same for Locke (as far as the timing; he was in A ball). Now that Bobby has figured out that McClouth needs to be batting leadoff and KJ needs to be in the 7 hole where he actually hits consistently, we’ll see a much improved offense. Give the guy more than a week before judging the trade. I might also add everyone in Pitt both on the team and in the stands feel they were robbed for what it’s worth.
What makes this completely different from the Tex trade is that we’ll still have this guy when all the farm talent we ARE gonna use is up and in place. Excellent move; Wren knows exactly what he’s doing from a business standpoint if not PR.
Dusty
June 8th, 2009
8:34 am
The Braves have not been hitting for quite awhile. Does anybody think Terry Pendleton is not doing very well – or are the hitters so bad they cannot take advice? From reading the paper, it seems Chipper is doing more coaching with the hitters than TP. Is that where we need a change the most?
Mark Bradley
June 8th, 2009
8:40 am
As luck (or something) would have it, Dusty, I wrote about Terry Pendleton just last Thursday.
Sam Everyman, Citizen Journalist
June 8th, 2009
8:54 am
McLouth may never be a superstar but he does appear to field the position well and make occasional contact. He will hit more homeruns, likely, than the other two outfielders combined. He stole a base the other day. What was that?
McLouth improves the team.
Now, Francoeur wastes every at-bat and deprives this team of runs that a more disciplined hitter might plate. It seems fashionable right now to trash McLouth and Hanson with little thought to the real underperformers on the team.
Is it true that on Brian McCann Bat Day only David Ross bats were being given away? And will there be a Francoeur bat day? And will the little bats swarm the field and hang from the rafters?
Herschel Talker
June 8th, 2009
8:58 am
Mark – great column. You’re on fire lately. Unlike DOB, the blind homer.
The Grinch
June 8th, 2009
9:09 am
I’m pretty sure the original Homer was blind too, or so they say. Though I’m sure DOB’s much closer to driving an Odyssey than writing one.
Ted Striker
June 8th, 2009
9:09 am
I’m just waiting for some Tech guy to say “107 UGA guys can write?”
(The above sentence is known as a pre-emptive strike against a jibe)
Bill
June 8th, 2009
9:15 am
I believe Wren did what he had to. We needed Nate and he’s locked up for 4 years. Glavine’s a has been. Still believe Cox and Staff need to go,
Sam Everyman, Citizen Journalist
June 8th, 2009
9:18 am
“I was seeing lightning bugs . . . ” Yes, Chipper came out of a game after seeing lightning bugs. The fact is, it is lightning bug season. The lightning bugs are out. So, what Chipper saw was not so unusual. Still, no one can blame him for removing himself from the game when combining lightning bugs with tingling extremities.
Sometimes too much information is offered.
Sam Everyman, Citizen Journalist
June 8th, 2009
9:26 am
Not likely that anyone on the DOB blog would be familiar with that particular Homer – only with Homer Simpson. Still, some good material there, Grinch. Have you blogged here before? Didn’t you win a DOB blog tee shirt awhile back before they narrowed the shirt and added a splash of color?
Tim Iliad
June 8th, 2009
9:33 am
Jeff Porter: “What’s wrong, Chip?”
Chipper: “Uh, I’m seeing lightning bugs and my extremities are tingling. I have to come out.”
Jeff Porter: “Put your head down between your knees and see if you can regain your composure . . . ”
Chipper: “Uh, now I can see my extremities . . . get me outa here!”
Mark Bradley
June 8th, 2009
9:39 am
Last I checked, Mr. O’Brien had a motorcycle. And a Mercedes.
willdave
June 8th, 2009
9:45 am
Again, I’d much rather see the Braves stick with the talented kids in their farm system rather than trade them away for a big-name player. The fans and the media then expect so much from that player that he inevitably fails to live up to those high expectations. The excessive pressure might even hinder his ability to produce in some instances.
All I'm Saying Is...
June 8th, 2009
9:47 am
MB: Why haven’t you or Schultz commented on the decision made in spring training that necessitated the trade for Nate? We should have sent Schaefer down and kept the other guy who was out of options and who we sent to Detroit?
ET
June 8th, 2009
9:55 am
I still believe that we started this cycle when we traded Wainwright & Marquis for Drew. Drew was not resigned so we needed another hitter. What do we do? We trade for Texereia. The prospects we dealt for him are well documented. This year we decided to go with a rookie in center and in our infinite wisdom we trade away Anderson in the preseason…a good hitting excellent fielding center fielder… for a mid level reliever that probably won’t see the majors. Now we need Anderson back because Jordan stunk it up, but don’t have him, so we trade more top tier prospects for a suspect all star center fielder.
One trade begets another. Once you start the cycle you can’t seem to get out of it. I don’t see Atlanta keeping the guys that in the past would have made them a consistent winner. Until they change this behavior they will not get back to the top unless they spend like the evil empire does. We all know they don’t have the funds to do that.
PMC
June 8th, 2009
9:57 am
Squander what? Three guys who weren’t ever making this team?
No they didn’t squander the future whatsoever. Now, is McClouth a superstar. No, but you got him a month early too. It’s still not like it’s going to matter much because they are still at least a consistant bat away from competing this year…. but seriously… why would ANYONE…ANYONE complain the braves went out and got a professional outfielder who can hit for once.
NORRIS
June 8th, 2009
9:59 am
That is just a silly question. We didnt give up anything.
Morton had a chance and couldnt do anything with it.
gorky has not hit a home run this year and his average was just marginal in double A ball. The pitcher was a nobody.
We signed a center fielder who is of quality and we got him for 4 years.
I say the future is with Mclouth.
Be-little, BeBOLD
June 8th, 2009
10:00 am
After years of watching THE MAN manage great players to the play-offs and losing, what can be expected other than inconsistent play of today’s wanna-be Braves? The answer is and has been COX, not what the players do, but how he manages! No urgency at all, “get-um next time” theory does not work. Every game counts in the end. And the “good ‘ol boy” coaching by Pendleton does nothing to help yet Cox still retains him. Loyalty is one thing he has too much of . . . how about using “performance” as a guide?
PMC
June 8th, 2009
10:02 am
The Braves didn’t give up one of thier highly talented farm players and they picked up a guy who is an everyday major league outfielder with some pop. What this trade does is give them better options for the future. They helped themselves quite a bit in the quality depth area with this trade and gave themselves some flexibility. The reality is that they are still not quite as good as the top tier teams in the NL.
Smooth
June 8th, 2009
10:05 am
We still need to make another move, let’s get rid of Frenchy and a pitcher for Mark D and play him in right field.
Gene
June 8th, 2009
10:13 am
Scherholtz had some success in the 1990’s, but you could field a competitive baseball team from players that the Braves dumped or otherwise lost. Wren is Scherholtz’s Damon Evans and nothing more than a puppet. Shafer was obviously not ready. Josh Anderson is batting around .300 for Detroit, and his speed is exactly what the Braves are missing. Wren and company essentially gave Anderson away. Glavin could not possibly have done any worse than Hanson, and Glavin’s treatment will certainly affect player morale for the rest of the year. The Braves’ front office should be held to a higher performance standard. Scherholtz and Wren just don’t have the “velocity” required for post-season play.
All I'm Saying Is...
June 8th, 2009
10:13 am
Since we chose wrong in the spring (keeping Jordan and getting rid of Anderson), we needed a lead-off hitter with some speed and a productive centerfielder and Nate fills the bill. As has been mentioned, he’s signed for a couple of more years which makes this situation completely different from the JD Drew and Texereia situations as each was way more harmful to the team since both guys walked and we have nothing to show for it. Granted, we made a significant offer to Tex but he wanted (and got) more money (so much for loving Atlanta and remembering his Tech years fondly, blah, blah, blah) and I don’t fault him for that since its a business.
If you are G.M., it is always in your best interest to trade potential for a a proven veteran—I mean there is a reason why so many guys (not just Baseball America’s top 100) don’t stick in the bigs.
Scheurholtz [sp] was the master of doing this. He swung often, came up big a few times (does anyone remember who we gave up to get Fred McGriff and does anyone care?), and had quite a few misses (Drew and Tex to name two).
Our problem is that it seems (until the last offseason) that we were unwilling to pay market rates for free agents. With the Lowe signing, hopefully, we will continue to see a change in that.
Blackberry Cobbler
June 8th, 2009
10:14 am
If the trading stops where it is now, this team still doesn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell of making the post-season……………. the pitching is better than last season but not good enough and too inconsistent, McLouth is better than Shaffer but not a real impact guy, there still not enough productivity out of Francoeur, Anderson, and Johnson, and Chipper is still going to miss his injury-prone share of games.
Wren Hater
June 8th, 2009
10:22 am
The Braves Squandered the Future….
… by making Frank “Wrong Again” Wren the General Manager!
NC Braves Fan
June 8th, 2009
10:22 am
Matt_T @8:16 – No comparison in my book. The Pirates bring their players up from the minors and lose them to free agency or trade them away before they realize their potential.
In the Braves’ case, they’ve laid out a lot of money on free agents this year and unless things change dramatically will have not much to show for it.
My point is that we put a floor under the team this year through the FA signings, but I wonder if in doing so we limited how good the Braves will be in 2-3 years?
PB&J
June 8th, 2009
10:23 am
McLouth is decent… but hardly the big bat we need in this anemic line-up. I think we missed an opportunity here to truly improve the offense.
Karl Childers
June 8th, 2009
10:30 am
Dat Francouer boy needs some bisucits and mustard…..
That’ll fix whatevers broken…
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm……..
McLouth of the South
June 8th, 2009
10:31 am
Numbers for Josh Anderson in Detroit: .269 .307 .352 .659 (73 OPS+)
Yeah, that’s a leadoff man for you. Really let one get away…
Idiots.
Taters
June 8th, 2009
10:33 am
mmmm… love dem taters with mustard….
AGTFan
June 8th, 2009
10:36 am
The length and terms of the McLouth contract make the deal more desirable, but the folks who think the Braves “stole” him greatly overrate him. It’s a sad commentary on the Braves outfield that a career .261 hitter is such an upgrade. He’s had one above average season in his MLB career. Hopefully that’s an indication that he’s improving and will continue to be an above average player. His one good season wasn’t as good as Francouer’s first two seasons and everyone in Atlanta now thinks Francouer will never be a good player. Gutting a farm system can be more than trading prospects away. It can also be rushing prospects to the big leagues before they are ready. As for why the Pirates haven’t been competitive in so long, they don’t have money to compete in the modern era of MLB. Maybe the Braves don’t either.
JD
June 8th, 2009
10:40 am
I was quite upset when I heard of the McLouth trade at first. Gorkys AND Locke? But then I realized that
1) We have McLouth for 4 years
2) While Gorkys has a lot of potential, McLouth will be the better offensive CF
3) Jeff Locke hasn’t been performing as well as I thought
4) Charlie Morton….well, he’s a good guy. Just doesn’t seem like he’ll be a great player
STRETCH
June 8th, 2009
10:41 am
Larry, thanks for that tidbit! But as usual, it seems NOBODY wants to write about Bobby Cox and they NEVER will.
chris from md
June 8th, 2009
10:43 am
Mark,
Your blogs have been so stellar these past two weeks. Three thoughts about this one:
1) The Braves have been making these kinds of trades a lot more in recent years because their farm system has been on the upswing in terms of prospects in recent years. In other words, they’ve had the kinds of prospects to make these trades happen.
2) Vazquez has actually been very consistent this year.
3) The whole in the entire outfield had to be addressed. This was a trade they would have made in the offseason or, perhaps, even if they weren’t a contender. These needed a good outfielder and got one.
Keep up the good work!
Chris from MD
chris from md
June 8th, 2009
10:47 am
Mark,
Your blogs have been excellent these past two weeks. Here’s my thoughts:
1) The Braves have been making these kinds of trades in recent years because their farm system has been on the upswing. They’ve had the quantity and quality of players to make trades like these. I don’t think it’s a change of philosophy (not that you implied that).
2) Vazquez has actually been very consistent this year.
3) They had to make this trade– whether they were in contention or not. The whole in their entire outfield was gaping. They might have made this trade last offseason or even if they were in last place because they needed (and got) a good outfielder.
Keep up the good work!
Chris from MD
MICK
June 8th, 2009
10:57 am
CRY GLAVINE CRY!!!
Gman
June 8th, 2009
11:01 am
If Charlie Morton was the future then the Braves had no future.
Hard to believe anyone would be concerned about the Braves getting taken in this one. If I’m a Pirates fan then I’m outraged. They traded their only all-star for AAA fodder.
Wren has done OK on balance but the guy could use a Dale Carnegie course or two.
J-man
June 8th, 2009
11:01 am
It’s impossible to assess the trade at this time. It does carry huge risks for the Pirates. It’s a high risk/high reward trade that could look terrible to either team in a few years.
Morton did not impress after a call up last season and it’s been said that his self-confidence may be fragile. Pittsburgh will have lower expectations and he may thrive there. Honestly, he wasn’t likely to amount to much in Atlanta. With the team operating under the permanent illusion that they are “playoff contenders” young pitchers have to hit the ground running or the fans will quickly turn on them.
Locke is horribly inconsistent and may not ever pitch in the majors. Remember Bruce Chen? He ate up the minor leagues. Nobody could hit him and he struck out a lot of batters. In MLB he was very inconsistent. One game he’d pitch 5 or 6 no hit innings. The next he would give up 3 homers in the first 3 innings. Or he’d give up one hit in 5 innings, but it would be a grand slam. Locke pitches in the minors like Chen did in the majors except he gives up a lot less homers and a lot more hits. Locke has games where he impresses, but they are scattered among poor outings. He is unlikely to amount to much in the majors and again may not ever make it.
Hernandez has speed and can hit for average but he strikes out a ton, won’t walk, and has no power. He’s probably the most likely of the 3 to be a good player in the majors, but he’s not ready to help yet. He’s another year or two away from being able to win a starting job.
The Braves win in the short term. Come back in 2 years to see who got the best in the trade. The only way this looks bad for the Braves is if one of the guys ends up being an All Star for Pittsburgh and McLouth gets hurt or can’t be re-signed.
Tommy Wildfire Rich
June 8th, 2009
11:02 am
Gene- I’m not sure how competitive the team would be of players we traded away, but you can form a team of players traded/dumped from each team
While at the gym here in SoFla this morning, I ran into a guy wearing a Braves hat. I asked him about his hat and if he was from Georgia. He said that he was from Vermont and the Braves were the only team besides the Red Sox that were on TV nightly, and he surely couldn’t be a Red Sox fan. R.I.P Goose that laid the golden egg.
McLouth of the South
June 8th, 2009
11:05 am
Actually, since the beginning of 2007 his OBP has been exactly .350, a strong number. Add .470 slugging and you get OPS+ of 110, 126, and 115 (so far this year) plus 65/70 (92%) in stolen bases for 2+ seasons. In other words, he has now had two and a half years of above average major league production.
Mark Bradley
June 8th, 2009
11:07 am
Thanks, Chris.
And I’ll gladly address Bobby Cox. Ready? Here goes: He’s the best manager I’ve ever seen; he’s the best manager I’ll ever see.
Thanks for asking.
lagnamor
June 8th, 2009
11:11 am
JD, I agree with you on all 4 points.
Mark- Where did getting Nate McLouth for short term come from? We have him for 4 years.
Do something with Jeff, please. He is killing the Braves and Bobby don’t have the BALLS to bench him.
Stretch- NoBODY writes about Cox. If they do its good because they don’t want to give up a good clubhouse visit, food and all the freebees that go with ajc reporters. In any other city they would be after Bobby’s head.
Turtsnap
June 8th, 2009
11:15 am
I think the McLouth trade was a good trade for the Braves. Morton wasn’t going to make it here, with JJ, Tommy Hanson, Kris Medlen, Lowe, and so on. Hernandez could be a good player, but his strength is CF and he appears to not have much power. We already have players in the OF without power.
That said, I don’t think the McLouth trade was the impact trade that the Braves need. I still look for an impact trade somewhere soon. Whether it be for a big bat in the OF (both LF and/or RF need to be addressed), or a deal for an impact IF (2B continues to be a weak point on this team). I also keep waiting for Yunel to turn the corner, he had another bad series in the field, and he is just too inconsistent at the plate. I went to two games this weekend, and in both games, he swung so hard that he fell down. I remember Chipper speaking to Schafer about controlling his swing and not swinging for the fences all the time. Seems like the same talk needs to be done with Yunie.
I guess in closing, as Bill blogged earlier, this team just has too many holes to compete this year. I wonder on any contending team if you would have Frenchy starting, Diaz/Anderson starting, KJ starting. Our two most consistent hitters aren’t in the lineup everyday, Chipper because of injuries, and McCann because of the position he plays. That HURTS quite a bit! I love Chipper, but his nagging injuries are really starting to take a toll on our weak lineup.
lagnamor
June 8th, 2009
11:15 am
Mark, just prove my case on BC. Mark, just proved my class on BC.
Thanks for telling.
rhynster
June 8th, 2009
11:16 am
The people bashing Bobby Cox are gonna eat their words when he retires.
It reminds me of the people who said the Hawks needed to be blown up after failing in the playoffs several years in a row.
You don’t know what you have until it’s gone.
rhynster
June 8th, 2009
11:19 am
And it isn’t Bobby keeping Francoeur in the majors.
Frank Wren punches the tickets to AAA.
Bobby could bench him from time to time, but I don’t see where there are better everyday options on the bench.
Tommy Wildfire Rich
June 8th, 2009
11:20 am
MB- I totally agree. Bloggers make the best managers. Don’t believe me? Just ask them. I’ve never heard a member of the national media say that it was time for Cox to go. Why would MB? Because the bloggers think so, it’s imperative that MB share your opinion? Ever think that Mark and other members of the media see more behind the scenes than the average fan does? Does anyone here think that the current roster is World Series caliber? People that have coached or played before (not at machine pitch level) know what kind of outstanding manager Cox was and is.
Bless you
June 8th, 2009
11:30 am
rhynster, u will never know what u could have had if u don’t get off your a@@ and make some changes. some people stay in a rut so long they don’t know the difference, are just become content.
Scott
June 8th, 2009
11:31 am
How much longer before Terry Pendleton starts taking the heat. When the players go to other hitting coaches employed by another MLB team, ie. Jeff Francour, then that is saying something. Hire Brian McCann’s Dad. Has anyone ever seen Pendleton in the dugout talking to anybody about anything?
William Satterwhite
June 8th, 2009
11:31 am
The McLouth deal really only looks good when you consider the complete lack of offense from the outfield and the fact that Gorkys Hernandez, while a top prospect himself, happened to behind two other more highly regarded prospects. The appraisal of the deal is really going to come down to the future development of Hernandez compared to Shafer and Heyward, if one or (hopefully) both those guys become stars or at worst, solid everyday players; the trade is no big deal. But if they flame out and Hernandez becomes a solid big leaguer, the Braves lose.
One other thing to consider is that timing has to play a role in how you look at the trade. If this trade is made in the off-season its a clear winner, but two months into the season when its now debatable whether the Braves are actually a legitimate contender, it’s very questionable. Non-contenders shouldn’t be trading multiple prospects away in the middle of the season for average to slightly above average ballplayers.
Tommy Wildfire Rich
June 8th, 2009
11:38 am
Define prospects. I guess Morton and Heyward are both “prospects”. 3 guys that probably would have never started for Atlanta vs. a guy that will lead our team in home runs and stolen bases, bat at or near the top of the order, and is affordable for the next 3-4 years. Clear win for Atlanta….or we could have waited a month and overpaid.
pryguy
June 8th, 2009
11:43 am
I appreciate your thoughts on Cox, but you’re still second rate compared to O’Brien. Keep up the good work however.
HoJo
June 8th, 2009
11:45 am
Are we really debating about the merits of getting an all-star centerfielder for for an A – ball Centerfielder, a pitcher nobody even knows about and a guy who wasn’t even in the competition for the 5th starters job this year? You couldn’t even swing that deal on a video game its so lopsided for the Braves. Trust me I tried and the Pirates had only 10% interest on the video game because it hurt their club. Uhhhh, yeah it does.
McClouth may not be Grade A Prime superstar centerfielder, but we got the equivalent of a really good NY strip steak for a Cheesteak sandwich a hot dog and some fries.
Luckily the Pirates love junk food.
David Smith
June 8th, 2009
11:53 am
After failing to reel in the bigger fish in the offseason, I think Wren has done a good job trying to make this team competitive. McLouth probably won’t have the impact that Fred Mcgriff did but, he will contribute in ways (base stealing, home runs, defense) that can help a team stay in playoff contention. I hope we can add another reliable clutch hitter or a proven veteran pitcher without giving up too many of our future prospects.
Wrens alter ego
June 8th, 2009
11:54 am
We gave up too much for McClouth. Locke and Morton would have been a fair deal.
That said, at least the guy is an upgrade. Now if we can find some sucker to give
us 3 players for Frenchy!
STRETCH
June 8th, 2009
11:54 am
It amazes the heck out of me how Bobby Cox’s way of managing a baseball team is always that laid back sittin on the porch sippin moonshine, spittin tabacker juice while pickin a gitar seems like the only way to go.
Good managers find ways to get the offense going, all Bobby has done over there years is rely on good pitching while not really having to be as creative when it came to offensive strategy.
But over the past few seasons the pitching staff has not been that of what weve be accustomed to seeing and Bobby has been exposed. Now, they have a pretty decent rotation, but the offense is pretty punchless.
In Bobby’s defense, back during that unprecedented streak of titles, the Braves atleast had some punch on offense. But right now this team is like making repairs on that “As Is” lemon you bought, you fix the engine, then the transmission goes!
Dont get me wrong, i like Bobby but his time has come. Just punch the clock please. If not, he’ll have to punch out sooner or later, its only a matter of time.
BehindEnemyLines
June 8th, 2009
12:01 pm
Getting McLouth is the just about the first good move Wren has made since taking over the job. At least this time he didn’t acquire / try to acquire an over the hill lump of roster filler. Sad part is I’m afraid getting someone who can contribute in return for a pitcher with no future here, an outfielder that was blocked at his position, and a random lefty is a case of how even a stopped clock is right twice a day. We got lucky & the deal happened to be made at one of those times.
Mark Bradley
June 8th, 2009
12:03 pm
If I can steer this discussion away from Bobby Cox for a moment — fat chance, I know — let me direct you to today’s poetry corner. Seriously.
NC Braves Fan
June 8th, 2009
12:07 pm
mitch – re: your 7:53am … Not only do we find ourselves where we are, but it is what it is as well.
bird
June 8th, 2009
12:16 pm
Roswell Ed, do you have something against tattoos? Or is it that you have something against NBA basketball players? Everybody doesn’t chew tobacco and spit. Oh yeah, if you look closely enough, alot of mlb players have tattoos also.
AS
June 8th, 2009
12:19 pm
Mark, Joe Morgan brought up an interesting topic on a recent broadcast. He said the Dodgers were well equipped for postseason play mainly because of their terrific base-running skills and ability to manufacture runs. He went on to say that team with the opposite philosophy – relying more on big hits/home runs – are often at a disadvantage because better play-off pitching often ices bats. He then tried to bolster his case by bringing up some teams, one of which was the Braves.
Now, I know it’s taboo here in Atlanta to question Bobby, but can you address his take on managing philosophies?
Baracked the Vote!
June 8th, 2009
12:31 pm
The Braves have been deluding themselves the past few years thinking they are one player away from making the playoffs. this is not a very good baseball team. the lineup is poorly constructed with players who have low OBPs, are too slow and have limited power. they have questionable defense up the middle and inconsistent pitching. There was no moment to be seized, unless the moment was to solidify an opportunity to finish 3rd in the division.
Mark Bradley
June 8th, 2009
12:36 pm
It’s not taboo to question Bobby in Atlanta, AS. Pretty much everybody on these blogs does, as best I can tell.
As far as small ball goes: That’s just not the way Cox operates. You know and I know it. He lets his big hitters swing — and they do, and often they miss. One of the reasons players love playing for Bobby Cox is that he lets them play. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn’t.
And Philadelphia won the World Series with some mighty big swingers, I’ll note. Sometimes it’s not philosophy. Sometimes it’s how good your big hitters actually are.
puppydawg
June 8th, 2009
1:01 pm
FireTerryPendleton.com – If that’s not already a URL, it should be. Loved him as a player, hate him as a hitting coach.
PSR
June 8th, 2009
1:09 pm
Cliff Corcoran should know that true impact players would have cost the Braves a lot more than what they gave up for McLouth. Teixeira was supposedly an impact player, but his tenure here was unspectacular.
Impact players aren’t called that just because of what they bring to the team they play for but the way they impact the opposing team’s approach in a game. There aren’t too many players that fall into that category. I think Chipper is a true impact player.
Boo Boo
June 8th, 2009
1:11 pm
For the 2009 Atlanta Braves, “small ball” simply means having players in traditional positions of power (outfield, first base) who cannot hit home runs. That is not the traditional definition of “small ball”.
Small ball means a team has speed and can bunt, thus can score a run without a hit (walk, stolen base, sac bunt, ground out), and do that regularly. The Braves haven’t had a possition player consistently able to bunt since they let Otis Nixon go. They also haven’t been able to consistently steal a base (over 60 a season) since they let Kenny Lofton go. The Braves used to play that promotional tape of two players sliding safely across home at the same time. All they have now is film of Escobar being thrown out overrunning second on a double, followed in the same inning by McCann being thrown out at third, trying to stretch a double to a triple.
It is not all the Braves fault, however. There is something about steroids (or the “performance enhancing additives” sold at GNC) that thickens both hamstrings and brains. Add that to catchers now being able to throw a fastball on a line to the 404 sign on the centerfield wall, and the stolen base is a lost art. Bunting requires having skinny arms and legs, with speed, and baseball can’t afford “all glove, no hit” players anymore.
Keeping It Real
June 8th, 2009
1:11 pm
If McLouth hits .280 with 22 dingers,20 stolen bases, 100 rbis, good defense, he still is not worth what the Braves gave up in talent. He is a fanthom all star at best. It will be worth it at the gate as the fans will flock to see the new fair haired boy take his cuts.You have to put something on the field that the fans will pay to see. This is a business thing as proved by the Glavine cut. The Braves will still be no better than 500. They can fire TP and blame him for not developing Triple A talent players to hit major league pitching.They can fire Bobby Cox and blame him for not utilizing the non talent on this team appropriately. The outcome will still be the same. Why not go get some solid and talented players like the Dodgers, Brewers, Marlins, Phillies, Reds, Mets, etc. Better still, how about keeping the top prospects they have and stop trading them away chasing guys who are not top- of -the -litter players? I hope you don’t have season tickets. If so, you may need to seek a bail out from your Congressman. I hope our government does not try to save this franchise from dumb assedness.
supa
June 8th, 2009
1:19 pm
The Braves have done a great job of developing their minor leaguers to be suberb AA and AAA players, but few have shown consistency in the Majors with Atlanta. That’s why we have to continue to trade for veterans. Let’s examine the recent evidence.
Thorman didn’t work out so we have to trade for Texeira and later Kotchman. Kyle Davies, Charlie Morton, and Jo-Jo have gotten shelled in the Majors, so we have to trade for Vasquez and sign Lowe and Kawakami from outside. Devine was emotionally scarred so we have to sign or trade for Wickman, Gonzo, and Soriano. Schafer wasn’t ready to step in, so we have to trade for McLouth.
So that begs the question – are they getting the coaching and continued development they need when they reach the Majors? Salty, Andrus, Matt Harrison, Joey Devine, and Kyle Davies all turned into at least reliable Major Leaguers after they left the Braves.
There are a few notable exceptions recently, e.g. McCann, Escobar, Kelly Johson (maybe), and Frenchy (maybe). But for the most part, we’ve seen a change in strategy from mostly home-grown talent to using the home-grown talent in trades for veterans.
Terrell
June 8th, 2009
1:24 pm
Rosewell Ed,
The Braves are not an Infante and a right fielder away from contending for a spot in the World Series. When are we going to hold the Braves to the same standards as we do every other Franchise in Atlanta? History gets you into the Hall of Fame but it doesn’t win you championships.
You really don’t know who Joe Johnson is? Wow, that’s all I can say. The top sports in ATL are Football and Basketball now, at least with them we are seeing consistent improvement
Hillbilly Deluxe
June 8th, 2009
1:42 pm
Nate McLouth probably won’t ever be a superstar but he’s a good solid ballplayer. He’s got some speed, he can field, a little power now and then but first and foremost, he’s a gamer. As a non-Brave fan, I think they made a good move especially considering how long he’s signed for.
Keeping It Real
June 8th, 2009
1:51 pm
Roswell Ed,
The Braves would be more entertaining if they had some guys with tattoos and attitudes. This team is too all american looking(no black players) to win. I believe that your reference to tattoos, Joe Johnson, etc. was to black players. Am I correct or were you just trying to be funny?
randyarnold
June 8th, 2009
2:01 pm
The Braves should plan for next season. The pitching staff seems set (Hudson, Jurrjens, Lowe & Hanson). Do they put Schafer in left to set have an outfield of him, McLouth and Francour (who also needs to be back in the minors)?
Freeman and Heyward seem to be at least two years away from Atlanta. So if the Braves want to contend next year, they’ll have to trade Kotchman (for some relief pitching) and sign Adam LaRoche and Matt Holiday over the off-season. It’s that simple.
Mark Bradley
June 8th, 2009
2:05 pm
I’d give it another month before punting on this season, if I might mix sports metaphors. The Phillies’ pitching is thin, and the Mets are hurt. If the Braves could hit just a tad, they’d stand a chance.
Gurn Blanston
June 8th, 2009
2:38 pm
You’re not a “blogger” if you write comments on a blog. You’re a “commenter.”
Mark Martinez
June 8th, 2009
3:14 pm
The problem is not the talent traded away, but the talent kept. Kelly Johnson and Jeff Francoeur are average to below average and have failed to live up to their hype. Escobar and McCann have been keepers.
But folks, Scahfer looks like a bust, and it’s only one game, but Hanson didn’t look exceptional nor poised which is how he has been described repeatedly.
I say keep trading because with but a few exceptions, the talent that is performing on this team has come from outside the organization.
J K
June 8th, 2009
4:09 pm
I think Kelly is a keeper in the long term over moving Renteria to 2B. I think you could make a case for Infante. Not sure of the contract situation for either at this point. I think Kelly is inexpensive though. I just hope Infante gets healthy sooner rather than later. When he got plunked, he was the second best hitter on the team behind Chipper. Like MB says, we will see come mid-July where we stand.
Tommy Wildfire Rich
June 8th, 2009
4:29 pm
What did I miss on Hanson? When did he lose his poise?
Charlie Lau
June 8th, 2009
6:16 pm
Mark, another great article. Just wish we could read the links withour subscription to all the different places.
I like the McLouth trade. I think the guys we gave up certainly have a future in MLB and I wish them the best. I had been impressed with NMc when he was with the Pirates. I like his attitude. When asked about being traded he expressed some regret on leaving the organization he came up with, showed them respect, said they felt they needed prospects, and did not have hard feelings. He hasn’t made a ton of money yet, but still did not rant and rave about the Pirates lying or being cheap, etc.
He may become a Nick Esasky, but at the moment I like it. Regardless, I will not criticize later if it does not work out. Most anyone could see the rent-a-Tex was a horrible shaft and would hurt the organization for years (as well as the rent-a-Drew which we continue to pay for).
Mark Bradley
June 8th, 2009
6:21 pm
I wish you could, too, Charlie, and I’ve kind of modulated my thinking on that. For a while I wouldn’t link to anything that required a subscription. Then, just as an experiment, I became an ESPN Insider ($39.95) before the NFL draft and actually found it was worth it. So now I link to the articles on such sites but also quote more liberally from them in case you guys don’t want to pay for the content.
And if McLouth makes it through 10 games, he’ll beat Nick Esasky.
McLouth: Did Braves seize a moment or squader the future? | Mark … | TypicalAd.com
June 8th, 2009
6:24 pm
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Charlie Lau
June 8th, 2009
6:26 pm
Excuse me Martinez, but the talent brought up through this organization is performing on a lot of teams.
Schafer needs his confidence back. It is waaaaayyyy too early to give up on him! Hanson will be fine. You are tough! and a little unreasonable.
Francoeur is a great kid. He comes from a supportive family. He devotes his time freely to the FCA and helps young kids. I wish things would work out for him in Atlanta and for his family’s sake and I pull for him. However, I have 2 great sons as well and neither of them is talented enough in baseball to hold down the right fielder’s job for the Atlanta Braves.
Charlie Lau
June 8th, 2009
6:29 pm
Thanks Mark. May have to take you up on the subscription.
Mark Bradley
June 8th, 2009
6:36 pm
A tip, Charlie: If you subscribe to ESPN The Magazine, which I’m told you can do for much less than $39.95, you get access to the Insider Web site as well.
Just call me Clark Howard.
RedMan
June 8th, 2009
7:06 pm
Dang it Mark, we should have traded Charlie Morton to the Phils! Double payoff, that way.
Keeping It Real
June 8th, 2009
9:05 pm
I just watched McLouth on TV hit a homer, hit to the opposite field and steal a base. I take back everything negative I have said about him. The guy can play. The Braves got a steal.
Bob
June 10th, 2009
4:55 am
I’d say the Braves seized the moment, we got plenty of prospects-
http://minorsandmajors.com/