Johnson needs to step back for the Hawks to step forward

Nice work MB

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Trade that sorry scrubb know as the” turnover waiting to happen” ZaZa is a scrubb and a loser. The reason the Hawks did not go further is we dont have a center. It would be nice to trade Za-scrubb for sump-ting….any thing grilled chicken for KFC sumpting,. He is like a green lite under the board. He stops no one!~!

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I agree that the Hawks should not dismantle the team but build key components. Fans were frustrated with the series but the last two games were in reach with better offense. Williams may come through but I think Smith and Horford are the key stones, who need more shots (and less erratic play Mr. Smith) to drive the Hawks forward. A yonger PG who could defend as well as shoot would be nice too to win 55 games next year.

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nice work mark. enjoyed your coverage of the playoffs.

Question – have you looked at what bigs are out there for possible sign and trade or FA? To me, that is the biggest hole right now. Whether it was Z or Sideshow Bob grabbing endless offensive rebounds this series, it was apparent, the hawks need a real center and let Al play the 4.

And if Marvin can be the bait to get a Big, I agree, he would be the one to trade.

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What do U mean by “Johnson needs to step back for the Hawks to step forward?” Joe Johnson may not played as well this postseason but Joe Johnson put the Atlanta Hawks back on the map and without Joe Johnson, there would not be no Atlanta Hawks, Atlanta Hawks will not be successful, and Josh Smith, Al Hortford, and everybody else would not play as good without Joe.

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While everybody being so damn critical on Joe, watch out for Joe Johnson next season. Once again Joe Johnson is gonna prove everybody wrong and everybody gonna jump back on his bandwagon. BE ON THE LOOKOUT FOR JOE JOHNSON NEXT YEAR EVERYBODY.

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WITHOUT JOE JOHNSON, ATLANTA HAWKS IS NOTHING POINT BLANK. REAL TALK.

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That’s a great argument letting a player go because he was picked before somebody. Like he had control over that.

Without you noticing you picked more bones at Woodson then you did Joe. Woodson said he rode Joe so he could keep his job, Woodson said he let Joe tell him what to do, and when you spoke about Marvin you forgot to mention that Woodson doesn’t like small guards and gave chris paul a no vote.

Really I feel sorry for Billy Knight he got a lot of venom spewed his way. When I honestly think most of his perceived poor decisions came from trying to appease Mike Woodson. Who will all know won’t play someone he doesn’t like.

Big Ups to Salim Stoudamire for getting another chance with the Bucks and Royal Ivey for finding his place in the league.

Actually Mark you probably went after Woodson in this column on purpose (no sarcasm there)

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Any chance the hawks could trade for MARK GASOL who averaged 11.9 points and 7.4 rebounds this year for MEMPHIS. He is 7 feet tall and weighs 280 lbs and only 24 years old. The HAWKS could then move AL to power forward. They need some bangers and some beef in the middle.

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Mark Bradley gone with all that mess bra!!!! Joe Johnson is the Atlanta Hawks and he aint going nowhere you know that i know that he know that the whole A-town knows that. This team has build themselves up from a 13 game winning season to a 47 winning season, 4th place in the eastern conference, and went to the 2nd round of the playoffs!!!! breaking this team will be like breaking up the lakers JOE JOHNSON WILL BE HEAR NEXT YEAR YALL!!! MARK BRADLEY JUST TRIPPIN

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To those saying: “watch out for Joe next year,” I would say, I wanted to watch Joe this year. If he’d played worth a darn, we could still be watching him play.

TRADE NO SHOW JOE.
FIRE STUPID WOODSON.

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trave Marvin. Release speedy. keep joe and zaza…Im not sold on Horford but maybe because hes still young(rookie here was real good thoug) as much as i like bibby to stay I would let him go only if ACIE can step up or we trade for a much better point guard(why point guards we sign or draft never work out for us?) overall I would love to keep this team chemistry together

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i would just like to thanks these hawks for making my basketball season very interesting. i watched every tv game that was on from my home in chattanooga, tn with my three boys ages 7, 5 and well 9-months. we were also able to watch one game in philips arena–a W against a very good Denver team in January. we really had a blast all year!

personally i enjoyed this team a lot! i feel like they’re a good group of guys who are still developing their basketball skill and IQ. i’m not going to make much of this series with cleveland because i knew we weren’t quite good enough to win a series against them especially without home court..my only problem is that we didn’t play our best ball. i truly think we peaked a little early and the injuries really hit us at a horrible time. yea we got through injuries here and there during the season–but two or three during the same time is too much to overcome. i really thought us playing our best basketball could extend the cavs series to atleast 6 or even 7 games. i hate that we didn’t give our best play to the national fans that now might see this hawk team as over-rated. we won 47 games because of really good team play and hustle and i’m sad no one got to see much of this in the playoffs.

for the future–i hope we keep most of these guys together. obviously i would love to add a quality center such as a chris bosh. if it means we lose a marvin or even joe i think we have to do it. marvin was really playing well before the injury and i think that injury really destroyed our chemistry late in the year. as far as joe goes–yea i really love jj too–but it’s so painful to watch how much effort he has to put forth to score. some guys make it look real easy–but poor joe has to scratch and claw for everything. and that’s really not his fault per say–but i feel like his outside shot is declining and his ft percentage is going down as well–probably because of fatigue!

finally, whoever we bring in or keep–know this–me and my three sons will be rooting hard for the hawks up here in chattanooga. you guys should have seen them when we knocked out miami!!!!!!

jg
chattanooga

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freshd,
Good point! You got a 1st round pick point guard sitting on the bench…found out what the guy has next season. Bibby needs to take a pay cut for sure. And Joe needs less minutes next season as well, so that when he comes back in the game, he has that killer instinct he showed last season.

Gotta get a big man like Sir Charles said last night. Until they get big, the are always gonna lose big.

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if i had to trade joe for a player it would be LaMarcus Aldridge

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Mark, what or who can we get for Marvin Williams? Any ideas? Thanks and have a nice day.

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Replace Woodson, bring in the 7 footer from Euro, trade Chills rights and change for another defensive Center and Joe and Marvin probably get a whole lot better. Or if it takes either of them to get a real Center then do that trade also.

Woodson burned out Joe and did not develop Acie. He needs to be replaced with a coach willing to build for the long term, not just burn everybody out pre-playoffs just to keep his job each year.

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Mark,

The Hawks can become elite with addition without major overhaul.

1. Resign Flip & Bibby to reasonable short term deals, 2 years.
2. Trade Marvin, we need a Tyson Chandler, or Andris Biedrins type player. Who need few touches, rebounds and block shots, and can finish (Unlike ZaZa, Solo)
3. Draft a PG, I’m not sold on Maynor yet, but he is an excellent shooter for a PG and that always transitions well.
4. Make NICE with Josh Childress.
5. FIRE WOODY, because no matter how well the Hawks play from here on out, we will always be out coached. He doesnt deserve to be fired for this season’s performance, but this team is alteast 1 year behind schedule, if not two.

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Nice article and perspective. That just sounds like a nice dream, which I’d take any day if it came true. It seems like most high-scoring stars do tend to pick up the bulk of minutes and shooting. Mark: Any comparison (mins. & shots) numbers with the likes of say DWade, Kobe, Dirk? My guess is that they also tend to carry their teams and will likely have comparable numbers.

Great season though a bit dissapointed at the lack of fight during the playoffs.

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Mark,

Good article. I agree with your theory about Joe but I dont agree with the idea about Marvin. I think he has made great strides this past year with his shooting and rebounding. A healthy Marvin produces numbers and his size and length is great (sorry for using the favorite word of Billy Knight, length). Who is the weakest link then? Josh Smith! (And Bibby’s defense.. and Woody’s offense). Josh Smith does not make enough good plays to make up for his bad plays and turnovers. He has a big enough name to get some trade value, perhaps a big man (i refuse to use the word “true center” because there are virtually non-existant anymore). Then we can move Al to his true position at 4. What’s your take on that MB?

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Larry none of that is possible..first you are assuming that the players will accept a short term deal. “Trade Marvin, we need a Tyson Chandler, or Andris Biedrins type” come on now lol

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Marvin Williams is arguably our second (or third) best player. I can’t see just throwing out a #2 draft pick with the bathwater. Sounds dumb to me, Bradley.

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You can let the big man come off the bench, or let MARVIN be the 6th man if he is not traded. As WOODROW would say, “it”s all about the matchup in this league MAN”.

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I doubt that any of the teams with the elite superstars had 6 players averaging double-figures like the Hawks. In other words, the Hawks are an ensemble cast (think Law & Order) as opposed to a star vehicle (24). So when too many members of that ensemble are injured or don’t show up, guess what, the team loses and the few healthy ensemble members come off looking like they can’t carry the entire load.

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JJM,

Bibby is 32, no one is going to get in a bidding war over him.
Flip will be easy to sign, he made 1.5 on a one year deal, he is deserving of a raise.

The Hornets basically gave Chandler away for a ham sandwich to Ok. City, and only was veteoed because of concerns of his injury.

Why isn’t any of this possible? What’s preventing it, do you really understand the NBA or just watch basketball. There is a difference you know?

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Mark Bradley what are you smoking. Keep Bibby. He is slow, can’t play defense, and he is getting old.

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Thanks Mark. Good information. I do look forward for the day that JSmith and Horford blow it up. They certainly have the potential. I do wonder (OFTEN) what life would be without Woody. He’s had a good run when they didn’t have anywhere to go but up. I think he exceeded most of our expectations with a 47-win season. I’m certain they could’ve gone over 50 with the last second losses (Cavs, Boston) and THREE early loses to the Nets that should’ve never happened. I feel it’s a great time to part ways, the team gets a fresh perspective for the talent we have and he goes with a much improved resume. It’s a win-win. I hate the fact he never gave Acie a fair shot. He showed a slight chance of belonging to the league at the beginning of his first season and Woody has made him ride the bench without much chance to improve with experience.

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Sign and trade Marvin, bring back J-Chills, find someone similar to a big man to clog the middle, re-sign Bibby, and Flip. We would be in the ECF.

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The Hawks offseason needs to have: Josh Smith spending 8+ hours in a hot as hell gym working on his medium to outside shot. The doors should be locked until he makes 1,000. This’ll give him a good outside/inside; inside/outside game to go with his stellar defensive skills. Plus it’ll also… hopefully… make him grow up and learn some discipline. It was embarrassing, as a Hawks’ fan, watching him b$tch and moan about every call or non-call.

I completely agree with Marvin Williams being traded. What a 2nd pick bust! Wasn’t happy when they picked him years ago and now I’m really upset. Just look out the Hawks’ season/playoff record when he didn’t play. Hopefully we can get a pick or a veteran for him.

For the draft, I think we need to get a solid big man rather than a point guard. Horford would be better at the 4. Josh could raise hell as a 3. We need a big man who can bang and defend. He doesn’t have to be too offensive minded. We have enough weapons on the floor. This will also move ZaZa to his better position of coming off the bench at either 4 or 5. I wish Law would have been something solid but he’s turning into a bust if not there already, but I think we could sign or trade for some up and coming PG to back up Bibby. Call Portland, they have a few international PGs that can play but are sitting on the bench.

Hawks need to feel embarrassed about getting swept bad by the Cavs and losing big to the Heat when they did lose. They can’t play like that, especially in the playoffs. The Cavs and D-Wade have swagger, but they also have confidence in themselves. We need that. Like we’re better than the other team… and actually be better than the other team.

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Larry flip will get a big deal not a 2 year deal. bibby wants at least 3 or 4 to finish his career off. marvin for chandler sureee. yes i watch basketball but i also think like a GM. I think about the future also…meaning thinking about having plenty of money to keep my future players such as Horford and joe and maybe marvin williams but i would trade him now for more money and extra role players…Trading marvin to the bobcats for D.J Augustine or Raymond Felton and a draft pick is what i would do…most hawks fans are trying to fill the rosters with all these great players and not thiking about how much each player contract will be and not having money to re sign our future players.

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J.J.M. actually, one of the owners was talking about how solid they were financially the other day. If you got these guys you also deduct big payrolls with Williams and Josh and maybe the swap of first round picks makes sense economically as paying two first rounders plus Gordon would be too much! The other factor would be sellouts every game and very increased season ticket sales and marketing deals! With this line up the Cavaliers and the Magic would be the only other contenders until Lebron jumps ship for NY or New Jersey in 2010. Boston is just about done! The other option is not to resign Bibby and go with a younger and lower priced alternative!

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I was frustrated that so many times when Joe would pass the ball, the other Hawks made no attempt to get it back to him..I would much rather have Joe taking the shots in the fourth quarter than Flip Murray,,,how many off-balance, low percentage shots did Flip Murray take when the game was close,,,,Hawks need another scoring threat so the other teams can’t double and triple Joe at playoff time..

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I think for the Hawks to go further, first you sorry fans need to stop booing as soon as they don’t do well. I mean I could not believe I heard boos for Josh Smith because of a couple of bad 3’s. Really? Really? I mean, Really? And to speak of the practical, let’s throw out the talk about getting a center or weening themselves of too much Johnson. How about for once since the Wilkins era, that the Hawks actually try to find a superstar or draft a college player with superstar ability and cultivate him? The last time any NBA team won a championship WITHOUT a superstar was the 1979 Seattle Supersonics. The Pistons and Spurs are the only exception since then.

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I still like solo hes our best shooting big. only if the coaching staff spend more time with him he would be nice off the bench

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SHANNON

Are you serious. I think you need to look at Woodsons’ record again. Since he has coached the Hawks, his record has improved by VERY noticeable margins EACH season. No other coach since Fratello has done this well. Be satisfied that he isn’t coaching against you with your division rivals Miami Heat.

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I would love to see Childress back here. I hope the Spirit Group will make that happen.

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This team won’t transform, in MY opnion, until they get rid of Woodson. You can’t win with his style of play. They play pretty good defense(good would be better) and they have no identity on offense. They can’t play half court(and no, giving it to JJ and isolating is NOT half court offense). And they don’t need to trade anyone but one of those clones they have, all those players the same size, plays the same position. Keep Bibby and draft a big man or point, so the rookie guard can learn something. Nothing against Woodson and i’d never advocate anyone losing their job but…….

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Mike Woodson is a joke. He admitted he ran his best player in the ground so he could make an all star game then ran him in the ground trying to secure the 4th seed. If he wanted other guys more involved in the offense why didn’t he just run plays for them? This cat still cant make adjustments, still makes silly substitutions, and still cant develop some of the young talent we have…What is our offensive system? Its time for a new coach…. I like Marvin but its plainly clear that he will never be what many thought he would be. He just is not aggressive enough. He is happy with being the fourth option on a team.. I’m all for a sign and trade of Marvin… Moving Horford to the pf spot makes no difference to me other than defensively. I like the kid but he has no offensive game. When he was playing the pf position when Josh was out he pretty much put the the same numbers he was putting up from the center position. He really needs to work on his post game this off season. I’m kind of split on Bibby. On one hand I like him because of his ability to hit shots but his defense is so terrible and I know he wants a long term deal where as I would only offer him a short team deal… I see Law being moved too but only if Woodpecker is back… He is not going to give the kid a shot so if he is back Law will probably be moved.

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Larry oh i still love my hawks no matter what. I have never said anything negative about them on here. I even went to two playoff games against the heat to support, but after the hawks lost game 4 i was watching barkley and the tnt crew they said flip will get a big deal somewhere

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Everyone is saying get rid of Woodson. I want someone to point out to me why a team should get rid of a coach after that coach improves his team each and EVERY season he’s been here.

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Mark,

Why can’t he sign for a one year qualyfing deal, if I”m not mistaken he was a RFA? We don’t necessarily have to sign him long term?

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I agree with the guy who wrote that the Hawks need to anticipate where the rebounds are coming off and hustle and fight for them.. . the thing that stood out to me the most about the Cavs is that they are playing with URGENCY and this mantra seems to be in their heads and on their “sleeves”: I’m tougher / quicker /smarter than you … I agree with coaching change, I think that a young assistant with lots to prove from an established team would do wonders in tapping Marvin’s and Josh’s repective “sense of urgency”

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Rob, you are clearly not watching the games if you believe that Mike Woodson is the answer. I will say this – he served his purpose. He managed a roster through a very tough transition and I will give him credit for that, but as soon as this team turned from ‘hope we make the playoffs’ to ‘want to be a force in the playoffs’ – he became the wrong coach for this team. It’s laughable to use Coach Brown and the Pistons as a feather in his cap b/c the value he brought to that team hasn’t be replicated here. This isn’t a great defensive team and we certainly aren’t emulating the good offense that the ‘04 Pistons displayed.

So, we have to look at the reality. Beating the Heat is no great feat – if you wanted credit for that, you had to sweep that team. The Heat are horrible, essentially the Hawks in ‘04 with D Wade and a gimpy Jermaine O’Neal added on. So, do we reward him for being the captain of the ship while the players were growing up and together or do we get someone in here who can design a gameplan that works for this team. No one who has watched this team can tell me that you’d want Mike Woodson as your coach based on offensive or defensive philosophy, team motivation, player development, leadership, or in-game adjustments. No one. If you can, tell me what he’s specifically what he’s doing or has done that you think is good. I’m open to hear it.

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Mark, if you trade Marvin, what player would be ideal, and how do we explain the lack of rebounding in the playoffs. I watched Varejeo box Smith out well over half of the plays. I agree Josh is much imporved and good, but he can’t play the 3 so we still have too many PFs.

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Marvin should take less money and become the best 6th man in the league, or trade him for Channing Frye and Travis Outlaw. Josh Smith goes to the 3 and Al goes to 4. Draft B.J. Mullins who can make the outside shot and run the old Pistons offense where they posted up the 3 and 4 man Dantley or Aguire. Mullins plays the role of Laimbeer. Let Bibby stroll out of town, start Flip at the point. Joe assumes a lesser role at the 2. Develop A.C. as backup to Flip, but draft another point in second round just in case. Then you have second unit of A.C., Mo Evans, Marvin, SoLo, and Zaza.
I think this can be a strong 10 man rotation with the right coach. Woody is not him. If anyone is more responsible for the stagnant growth of Josh Smith, Marvin, and Chill before he left it is Woody. The man can not develop players, he could probably win a championship if he walked into the right situation, but I would never leave him in the same room with a young talent.
I would bet money that if the Hawks had drafted Paul or DWill they would not be the players we know today, because of Woody and Joe.
Joe has gotten a pass by the organization, but it was Joe who cried about playing with a rookie point guard that didn’t give him the ball everytime he asked for it. Imagine where the Celtics would be if K.G., Pierce and Ray Allen (all future Hall of Famers) had reacted that way to Rondo, who had the same knock on him as A.C., he couldn’t shoot.

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A couple thoughts….

1. Joe Johnson, Acie Law, Marvin Williams, or any other player is NOT the problem with this team. The problem with this is team is it’s coach. Players aren’t put in position to be successful and very few are allowed to show what they really can do. All of them, in the right offensive system with better spacing, better movement, and better actions would be allowed to have greater success. Instead, our offensive movements push us into another defender and it’s not a coincedence how many contested and nonrhythm shots that we put up versus teams we lose.

2. Defensively, it took us 3 freaking games to figure out that we may actually want to play help defense on the best player in the leauge in Lebron. That’s just freaking brilliant and was 3 games too late. Who makes those decisions? Hmmm, Woodson again.

3. This team is built to run the floor. What the heck do the Hawks do to play to their strengths? Once again, scheme and design are conflicting.

Give Doc Rivers this team and the Hawks would not only be immensely better, I think they’d at least give Cleveland a run for their money. Simply playing help defense last night allowed them to stay in the game. If they had any clue about how to run an offense, and didn’t have so many empty posessions with atrocious shots coming an unexpected times due to designed plays being blown up then you’d see a great efficiency in their shot making ability. Instead, you get awful movement, atrocious spacing, and a sheer inability to design and run plays in a manner where a player can actually best utililize his skill set. Our offense is made up about 75% of the team. Only complicated by our inability and lack of commitment to create easy transition offense by deploying various defensive schemes to produce such scenarios. All the more muddied by our jumbled up sets.

4. As this team is put together right now, it’s not a NBA championship team. It’s not going to be without a real superstar. However, even if you put a true superstar on this team, you still can’t get around the fact that we’ve got a subpar coach leading this team whose schemes are JV’ish at best so if you really want to allow this team to move forward, then our owners and GM need to get a clue and go hire an actual good coach who knows how to get it done on both ends of the court. Then go from there with personnel moves, but the coaching move is priority #1.

Not understanding that is just not being realistic about where we’re at as a team. All the talk about different and varying players is only attempting to put a bandaid on a gashing wound.

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The Hawks will be $20 million under the salary cap, when Mike Bibby and Za-Za’s contracts come off the books. They will probably offer Speedy Claxton a buyout or trade his expiring $5 million contract to a team trying to get under the cap for the 2010 free agency sweepstakes. The Hawks will be in great position to go after restricted and unrestricted free agents. I wouldn’t offer M.Bibby a contract, even at a reduced price. He’s 32 and a liability on defense. I would go after one of the young point guards who will be restricted free agents, like Raymond Felton or Jarrett Jack.
Marvin Williams will be a restricted free agent, I would offer him a contract in about the $ 7-8 million range, it won’t be many teams trying to steal him away this off-season. Lastly, I would go after a young true Center, that can rebound and play defense. Like a Chris Andersen from Denver or a power forward like Paul Millsap from Utah who will be a restricted free agents. I would only keep Za Za at a reduced price as a back up Center..

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Hawk St8Talk

Where do you get your sources from? You and some people like you don’t like Woodson as the coach. You have your right to your opinion. But don’t tell me that Woodson is not the coach for this team. Anyone is the coach for a team when they can continually make improvements season after season. Show me some sort of digression in his performance from last year, then we can talk. But until then, your reasoning is just that…. Your reasoning. The Hawks need a superstar player. That’s it. Capable players come a “dime a dozen”… Exceptional players come at higher price tag. Remember that.

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I thin the point that Rob wants to hear is – why would you get rid of Woodson? I can give chapter and verse on that (and I will), but I want to know why you want him to stay based on the simple – we won more games each and every year argument. Here’s the rebuttal to that – first, if you start at 13 games – you don’t have to do much each season to create more wins. The fact that you’re just growing up together means you’ll win more. And that’s happened. Remember there are a LOT of bad basketball teams out there. On talent alone, the Hawks won about 40 games.

The reason to get rid of Woodson is that the brand of basketball that we are playing and the tactical acumen necessary to move from ok to good and good to elite is large. Coach Woodson hasn’t shown that he knows that he needs to develop his bench, that he can’t play Joe the most minutes in the league and THEN expect him to explode in the post season, that he can’t design an offense that leaves Josh on the perimeter, that he can’t switch on every screen and leave players who aren’t good at one-on-one defense exposed EVERY single play, that his locker room speeches that leave us flat to start the game or after halftime need work…I could go on, but I’ll stop here. My point being – I wanted Coach Woodson to succeed and if we gauge it based on where we are today – he’s been successful, but if we base it on his ability to get us where we need to be or go – he’s not the coach to take us there. I’d love to hear what you think specifically he’s done that we’re not seeing. All I see is that the talent grew up and they won, but not b/c Woody did much to accelerate or aid that process based on his coaching decisions and acumen.

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To me the big question for the Hawks is the health of these guys. If Marvin is healthy he is a very good player (though not a max-money player). He’s already a very good defender, and his range and back-to-the-basket game is really improving. Acie Law also looked good at the end of the year, in particular shooting from outside, but he just can’t stay healthy. But if you are going to re-sign Bibby then I would keep Acie as a back-up and draft a big man rather than a PG.

Look, it’s hard to talk about this in the abstract. They should absolutely keep Bibby, Marvin, and ZaZa, and sign Childress — AT THE RIGHT PRICE. The question is how much? Marvin probably isn’t worth $10 mill a year like Josh, but no one else is likely to offer that anyway. I would even trade Joe, but only for the right player, and realistically you aren’t going to get a deal that makes it worth it.

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Oh, come on! Turiaf for Marvin? Turiaf isn’t even a legit NBA starter! And Brandan Wright is not like Marvin at all. He has no outside shot at all, and is too skinny and weak and basically useless in the half court. Wright is basically a skinny, weak version of Josh Smith. *If* Marvin is healthy then that is crazy talk. On the other hand, I am worried about his back….

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Varejao is only a free agent if he opts out. More importantly, he doesn’t fit in the Hawks’ system, unless he is willing to play a back-up role like ZaZa. He’s a half-court player, and the Hawks need to run.

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Joe Johnson is the only guy on the Hawks we can trade and get “full money” for, he’s reached his fullest potential and even a little beyond (I respect the guy alot, but in putting my Dimitrof GM hat on, he is the best trade bait for a offensive minded big man that I need) … which team would secretly love to have an all-star 2 guard, and be able to trade us a decent big man in the trade?

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I would pick up Trevor Ariza. I dont think the lakers will re sign him if they wanna keep odom

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SHANNON… The island I live on is called “reality”. Obiviously, you could take a dose of that.

Hawks St8Talk… Let’s kick the ballistics.

The Hawks were dealing with Horford who was not 100%. So essentially the Hawks were playing without a “dedicated” point forward. Also, Let’s not relegate Woodsons’ accomplishments to mediocrity. No matter how far the Hawks go, the “Holy Grail” which is an NBA championship title is the only goal. There are no other goals. It doesn’t matter if the Hawks were to go on to win the Eastern Conference title. If they don’t win it all, they don’t win. Look at Boston, they might not make it past Orlando. What will people say then? That Rivers is not the coach that can take them further? Of course they will.

And just for kicks and giggles…. Here’s Woodsons’ coaching record… But I guess you’re still stuck on his record from 4 seasons ago…. huh?

Team Year G W L W–L% Finish Result
————————————————————-
ATL 2004–05 82 13 69 .159 5th in Southeast — — — Missed Playoffs
ATL 2005–06 82 26 56 .317 5th in Southeast — — — Missed Playoffs
ATL 2006–07 82 30 52 .366 5th in Southeast — — — Missed Playoffs
ATL 2007–08 82 37 45 .451 3rd in Southeast 7 3 4 Lost in First Round
ATL 2008–09 82 47 35 .580 2nd in Southeast 11 4 7 Lost in Conference Semifinals

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If we did make that trade who would be our PG if bibby isnt signed or who would back up bibby? flip?

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Hawks St8Talk…

Basically, there’s NOTHING anyone can say to to you to make you vacate your position. I too have watched the entire season of the Hawks thanks to the NBA channel. I too have attended numerous games. But I see this completely different than you. And that’s cool because I’m just as “bull-headed” as you in my point of view of the Hawks and the direction they need.

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I wonder if we could get a Chris Bosch for Joe Johnson trade done…. if a deal with Toronto isn’t possible, I think that Charlotte would do a deal with us: sending one of their bigs + a better draft position in exchange for Joe Johnson

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Marvin is outta here. He’s a mistake and will never have the feet or coordination to be a dominant player. He falls down everytime he’s drives to the basket. Somebody will take him though, sign and trade for whoever. Let bibby go, resign flip, find a point guard in the draft, and a Samuel Dalenbert type big man. Al moves to his natural position, after a summer of working on his offensive game. Josh moves to his natural spot at the 3, Joe at the 2, now the team is set to win 50 plus games.

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Mark, I don’t like that trade for the Hawks at all. Wright averaged 8 points and 4 boards a game this year. That was only in 17 minutes, but it was also in Nelly’s up-tempo style. He has no strength, no offensive game other than dunks, and no defensive game other than blocking shots as a help defender. Turiaf is a decent role player, but no more, and guys like him are not hard to find as FAs (much like ZaZa).

People are being much too hard on Marvin. When healthy, he is an excellent defender who can get to the free-throw line a lot, and who is developing 3-point range. He’s also getting stronger and filling out a legit NBA body, but is still young. He runs the floor as well as Wright but also can play half-court offense.

He does have two big problems: he needs to stay healthy, and he needs to be more aggressive. But he’s a nice third or fourth scoring option and a very good defender. If they can sign him for around 8 mill a year they should do it no question.

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Give Joe Johnson some help. Double teams killed him and no one could consistently make the opponent pay. Who on this team can beat their man off the dribble and pressure the D? Who can consistently hit a jump shot? Joe Johnson can’t do it by himself.

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Also, Mark, where does a guy like Brandan Wright play on the Hawks? With Josh Smith? Who scores on that team? As you note, they need someone to help Joe carry the load. He’d be a nice player to have off the bench, but Marvin is a legit NBA starter even if he may never be an all-star. You don’t trade a 22-year-old starter for a bench guy who can’t defend his position or score.

I do realize that Wright is just one idea, but it goes to show how talking about trading these guys is one thing in the abstract, but it’s hard to make the specifics make sense (for both teams). If they could trade him for Lamarcus Aldridge — Marvin is from Washington and Portland needs a small forward — I would do that, but I doubt Portland would.

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The hawks don’t need to trade marvin… what they got to do is get a guard in the draft to back up bibby and big man free agent veteran to put at center and move horford to PF smith to SF KEEP joe at SG and bib at PG and use marvin as a 6th man like j-chill a year ago… this team doesn’t need to get rid of everyone, they made it to the second round of the playoffs. They have improved under mike woodson every year… there at there peak where they’ll shine the next year. Why break a atl b-ball team playin in the playoffs. GO HAWKS!!!

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Big man or guard, what the Hawks need is a leader. Look at Denver with Billups (see article) as what leadership can do for a team.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=090511/billups

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Mark-
I completely agree with your assesment of the team and your thoughts on Marvin……it has become painfully obvious to admit that the returns on him for being a no.2 pick are modest……not the worst pick, but just not the expected dividends for such a pricey investment. Well I guess if Acie doesnt have a future here, he should be given a chance elsewhere, but I am still not convinced that he could not have played here. Law showed some promise last year with his quickness and range, but Woodson never really gave him a chance, and now he appears to be damaged goods. How realistic would it be for us to get Boozer and Jack…..I think both of those guys would bring really solidify this team and get us to the next level.

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That was supposed to be “guard the vast majority of players who play at “2-4,” not “1-4.”

PS – I agree with your take on JJ. We ask him to do way too much on offense. It both exhausts him and makes the team predictable.

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The NBA.NET mock draft has the HAWKS drafting JEFF TEAGUE from Wake Forest. He would be a good pick, but he would spend most of his playing time on the bench, because WOODROW doesn”t know how to develop young guards. See SALIM, AC LAW. ROYAL IVERY.

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What about DARREN COLLISON or TONEY DOUGLAS. EVANS and LAWSON are predicted to go before the HAWKS pick.

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Birdman was one of my favorite cartoon shows when I was a kid also Mark.

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Marvin Williams is NOT the answer at small forward. We need a consistent scorer at that position. He is not it. Move on.

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Well, you got one part right. Josh Smith SHOULD be one of the teams top players in 2011. However, it should be intuitively obvious to the most casual of observers that Smith will never realize all that “potential.” He has phenomenal physical abilities, but unfortunately he makes dumb decisions, doesn’t rebound with any consistency whatsoever, and insists on being an outside shooting PF. We got beat on the boards this year and especially in the playoffs. We need a PF who will get in there and fight for rebounds, not hang out by the three point line and hang around whining at the referees.

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This was a very good article, and the central message rings true. We all know at this point that Joe Johnson is not a superstar, and if this team is going to improve it cannot rely on him as if he is one. Barring a trade, this team has to employ a spread-the-wealth offense where the ball is shared evenly and the front court and back court get a roughly equal distribution of shot opportunities. We’ve been clamoring all year on Sekou Smith’s blog that Josh Smith, and to a lesser extent Al Horford, don’t get the ball enough in the post — not that either one is a very polished post scorer yet, but both are pretty good passers when there is some structure to the offense, and getting the ball inside always initiates greater ball movement and open looks for the Hawks.

In order for Woody to fully rely on Josh and Al inside, though, Josh absolutely has to become better at using his right hand, and Al has to develop a post move that takes him towards the basket in a position to get fouled. As it is, Josh is very good with his left hand and almost useless with his right, and Al is not bad at nailing his turnaround jumper but doesn’t really have any moves that draw contact. Both those things have to change in order for them to become truly reliable post options.

I also agree that Marvin has more trade value than he does value as a member of this team. I’m a little on the fence as to whether Bibby must be re-signed; on the one hand, it would probably take Acie a while to learn the ropes and become as reliable at that position as Bibby currently is, but on the other hand starting Acie would be a defensive upgrade, and looking at how Rajon Rondo has developed in Boston with more accomplished players around him leads me to believe Acie probably wouldn’t be much worse than Bibby by the end of one season.

The only thing to which I take exception is the suggestion to draft another young point guard that Woody would bury on the bench behind Bibby. Maynor is nice, but he definitely didn’t accomplish anything more in college than Acie. There’s no point wasting a draft pick on something we already have. Draft a guy like DeJuan Blair who will instantly add toughness, physicality, and depth inside without requiring the ball in his hands in order to make an impact, and you’ll see this team improve instantly. Draft a guy like Maynor, and who knows whether you will ever see the returns you expect on draft day.

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Great post by Hawk Str8Talk and HawksFan….This draft is pg heavy the only problem is we have a coach in Woody who does not like rookie pgs. I feel like it will be Salim and Law all over again if we take another young promising guard. There are not many quality big men in this draft so pg will probably be our pick. I don’t want to waste another pick on a guard we wont play. If Woodpecker is here again which I believe he will be then he really has to change his ways.

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The Hawks need to let Mike Bibby, Solomon Jones, and Speedy Claxton sign elsewhere as free agents; resign Flip Murray and reacquire Josh Childress and David Andersen from Europe; Draft a point guard who knows how to run a team with their first pick, or use it to acquire Ramon Sessions or Jarrett Jack. They should use their second pick on the best center available, either Josh Hevtvelt or Garret Siver; sign and trade Marvin Williams for a pure shooter or an enforcer; last but not least we need to acquire a head coach who knows how to develop young players and a bench. I would have to say, the Hawks have their work cut out for them this offseason.

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I would:

-Trade Smith/Law/#1 for Bosh
-Bring back Chills as our 6th
-Move Joe to 3
-Resign Flip and start him at the 2
-Move Horford to 4
-Move up in draft to get back up point
-Make a play for a 2nd tier Free agent.

-THATS INSTANT OFFENSE
-Bench-Solo/ZAZA/CHILLS/EVANS/

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WHAT ABOUT CHRIS KAMAN?

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Here’s what you have to consider if we trade Marvin…can we get someone better for cheaper? The answer is probably no, plus I still believe his best games are yet to come.

I’m more open to trading Smith or Horford as part of a package for a second scorer. Why? Because we eventually have to decide which player will make us a better power forward. Both can’t co-exist because Horford isnt a true center, and the Cavs exposed this weakness. He didnt have a chance against Z, except to shoot jumpers. So he has to play power forward to be correctly used. And Josh cant hit a jumper consistently enough to play sf. So he has to play power forward as well.

Horford, we get better rebounding and a leader, but what looks like a limited offensive game. With Smith we get a potential all-star, a rare athletic talent, but also a bad attitude, a penchant to be lazy, and a love for bricking jumpers.

I would also be open to a JJ + Horford for Bosh and filler, then sign Chills to be our shooting guard.

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Rob

I wish you would say something that makes sense. You are yet to answer Hawk str8talk’s question. Again starting at with so few wins and getting more each year is not the barometer for success. It is how the players you have been dealt get better.
Forget what your opinion and that of the rest of us that want him to go is………. but google Mike Woodson and what ESPN and Fox Sports have said about him over the past week. All of the experts have said he needs to be let go since he has not gotten the best out of the players he has been given. Also, last week I Tivo the game ( I actually go to them all) and TNT ate Woodson alive for the way he coaches.
So maybe what we think don’t matter….. but ALL OF THE EXPERTS THINK HE HAS DONE A BAD JOB. BUT WHO ARE THEY????? THEY ONLY DO IT FOR A LIVING !!!!!!!

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“Did I wear him down? Sure. But I needed to ride him to get us where we needed to go.”

So does this statement include when he played him while losing by 32 in Cleveland?? Or giving a clearly hurt Horford starters minutes over ZaZa in game 1?

Face it….. Woodson make Hewitt look like a great coach in comparison. He MUST GO!!

I wonder if Lenny Wilkens would like another shot?

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Mark I’m curious as to why do you think Smith has a higher ceiling than Williams. I love Josh like the next fan but I refuse to blinded by his athleticism. Smith to me seems miles away from being a cornerstone (reliable) of our franchise. Offensively he can’t handled the basketball so I don’t see him as a person we can post up yet or even isolate on the wing. He has zero outside game and the free throw shooting is unexplainable(from 71% to 58%?) He’s just an athletic 4 that plays great weakside defense(as an on the ball defender he is below average to me). I mean he was exposed in the Miami series when Beasley decided to take him off the dribble. I guess the better question is do you think Josh has the commitment to improve upon his weaknesses. I look at the improvement Williams has made each season and I’m pretty sure Williams will add another dimension to his game.

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GET RID OF WOODSON AND THEN ——————————BLOW IT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I agree with MB. I have been watching the Hawks since 1996-1997 season when we had Steve Smith, Deke, D-Lock, Laettner and Corbin etc and continue to watch them today. I’ve watched Joe Johnson ALL season on either FSS or CSS…not just the post season. He is a first option at best but second option at worst.

Why?? That’s due to his ability to score in a variety of ways, his talent, basketball IQ ,versatility and solid perimeter defense. I can list his skills.

He can post up, great 3 point shooter, great mid-range shooter, great ball-handler, great isolation player, excellent passer, can score with EITHER hand at the rim IF he gets to the rim (I’ve seen him do it many times this season), can dribble left OR right, can pull up in transition and half court, can create his own shot off the dribble, can play pick and roll (but Woodson refuses to call many pick and roll plays, just ISO Joe or screen and roll) and he can defend the perimeter players as well… thought he did a nice job on Dwyane Wade IF the Hawks didn’t switch. He might not be the most athletic player but he was way more athletic when he was with the Suns.

These qualities he has are the assets of superstars and he has superstar talent. But you can’t win championships with only one supertar talent. You either have to have two players that demand a double team or just a solid all-around starting five (like the 2004 Detroit Pistons). The Hawks don’t have a complete starting five…

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Once again, all this talk about Joe, Josh, Horford and Marvin is just a waste of time.

They are sports car with 5 speeds driven by Woody who is the equivalent of a 15 year old who doesn’t even know what a clutch is.

The players are the second part of the equation.

Joe Johnson should be used in a similar format to the way Boston uses Ray Allen.

Josh Smith should NEVER be on the perimeter.

You win games with a guy like Marvin. If you question him then question his ability to be healthy, but you’re a damn fool if you can’t see the ability this kid has. As someone stated before, when others have deferred to him or been out, then he’s repeatedly stepped up and had big games. Reading some of ya’lls take, you’d think you just thought that was just a coincedence.

If you’re going to trade anyone, you trade Josh Smith. REAL basketball guys don’t win championships with guys like Josh Smith because you can’t count on what this guy is going to give you game to game. His game is pathetically underdeveloped from the wing and is just a great athlete who makes plays off his physical abilities. The problem is, good teams who go deep in the playoffs easily negate that over the course of a series. His negatives BY FAR outweigh his positives minus the couple nights a year he actually puts an all around effort together. You’d get the most by trading him and getting a quality PF or even C in exchange.

In a perfect world, you’d trade Josh Smith for someone who can ball from the PG spot, and sign someone like the Birdman to play the 5 for you and be that intensity/energy guy who plays mad defense and boards like a Godzilla and gets all the garbage buckets. Then you develop Horford at the PF position and mold him to be similar to Elden Brandt’s game. You have to resign Flip because he’s the only guy that comes off the bench and provides a consistent spark.

BEFORE all that, you get a real coach who knows what the hell playoff winning basketball looks like on the offensive and defensive end. Personally, I think we could do a heck of a lot worse than a guy like Avery Johnson or someone similar. That would most definitely be an upgrade from where we’re at.

You don’t even have to know the game to understand our 1/2 court offensive approach is nothing short of a 3 ring circus. It’s violates so many fundamental rules of basketball that it’s not even funny. I know HS coaches that run better conceptual stuff than Mike Woodson.

Seriously. It’s that bad.

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“You win games with a guy like Marvin.”

The Hawks were 14-7 without Marvin this year. They were 6-7 without Josh.

“REAL basketball guys don’t win championships with guys like Josh Smith because you can’t count on what this guy is going to give you game to game.”

Sounds like what they said about Rasheed Wallace before Detroit acquired him in 2004.

“His negatives BY FAR outweigh his positives minus the couple nights a year he actually puts an all around effort together. ”

Josh had 20 double-doubles this year. Marvin had six. Yes, there are more ways to measure all-around contributions than stats, but this is one very easy way. Here are a few others: for all the talk of Josh’s poor shot selection and decision making, he shot a better percentage than Marvin over the course of the season and had the same assist/turnover ratio. And it goes without saying for anyone who watches Hawks games that Josh’s defensive impact far outweighs anything Marvin contributes on that end.

Serious question: can you name one thing, other than outside shooting, that Marvin does better than Josh? Because I can’t. Does he rebound better? No. Does he post up better? No. Does he play better defense? No. Does he pass better? Not even close. Does he handle the ball better? You could make an argument that he does since he uses his off hand better, but considering the number of times he gets stripped when he drives inside, I’d still say no.

Funny how every one of Josh’s mistakes is magnified and blown out of proportion, but when other players take equally bad shots, or make other equally damaging plays like missing box-outs, not rotating properly, driving into traffic and losing the ball (all things Marvin has done over the last few games) they go unmentioned.

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couple things about the playoff games since i’m on here: we were absolutely decimated by injuries .. our guys should be given major props for gutting it out .. if marvin and al had been 100 percent, the cleveland series would have been a different story .. everyone, including atlanta fans, have gotten caught up in the lebronocity of the nba .. cleveland is great and they will beat kobe in the finals, but the hawks are closer than y’all think .. if you watched every single game this season, you would know we only had our starting 5, in 41 contests .. additionally, during the 41 games we had our 5 strong, one, or even two, would be coming off an injury .. therefore, they would end up playing limited minutes, and shaking the rust off for a few games .. i’m proud of the effort we sustained for much of the season, and i look forward to seeing how much i will love or hate rick sund this summer .. GO HAWKS! STEVE HOLMAN RULES!

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Speedy should be plenty rested by now. That makes Bibby expendable, right?

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Najeh, I couldnt agree with you more……Marvin’s contribution to the hawks are just not as good as Josh’s. Marvin has a nice consistent jump shot to his game, but he is a very awkward player…….his ball handling and feet moving skills are not good at all….how many times did we see him trying to take his man of of the dribble just to see him lose the ball or get his feet tangled up and falling to the floor? Everybody wants to dog Josh about certain aspects of his game, but other than his jumpshot, Marvin hasn’t really been any more impressive, especially for a no. 2 draft guy.

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Najeh, right on … that was probably one of the better posts i’ve read, with tons of facts to support your case … I still think Marvin has some major upside but are we willing to risk continuing developing him with the lame injuries he keeps getting? it’s like one step forward and 2 steps back with marvin

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If they are going to continue to play Al at center, we need a better back up than Randolph Morris or Solomon Jones. Keep Zaza, he has a passion for the game and gets incrementaly better each year.

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i give marvin credit though, this would technically be his first season out of college had he stayed, so his development is not bad at all … depending on what he’ll be asking, we can easily find another 14/15 pt scorer who’s less injury prone (childress was another nice scorer for the team but also very injury prone, he needs a little more bulk on him … maybe he can load on carbs in greece) … ah, man i do miss the backdoor lay-ups that woody would run for j-chill … i don’t know if j-smoove has the basketball iq yet to fit into those plays

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Let’s stop ignoring the obvious here. Al Horford is as big as the Hawks are going to get if you want to see him and Josh Smith on the floor at the same time. Josh Smith is not a SF nor is he a sixth man. What they both have is a lot of legs and ability to catch balls on the rim. This lineup is built to run like NY but plays in the half court like Detroit. If you get bigger, you get slower, so either get a coach that supports the wide open style or be willing to part with either Josh or Marvin. Bottom line.

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Mark you claim that Joe is clearly more than a role player which contradicts your idea that Joe’s offensive focus needs to diminish. In the NBA your either the focal point or a role player. Take San Antonio for instant, in Tim Duncan’s earlier years he was the focal point of their offense as he has aged that role has shifted more toward Tony Parker. The Shaq-Kobe led Lakers went through the same process, Shaq was the focal point and Kobe played a role. Going back even further the Magic-Kareem led Lakers went through the same process. In his earlier years Kareem was the focal point and Magic played a role, as Kareem got older Magic already serving as the engine to the team became the focal point and Kareem played a role. Being a role player doesn’t take away from your skills or abilities and doesn’t necessarily make you any less of an all-star which Joe has been for the past few years. Some of the 50 greatest players in the NBA were role players, James Worthy, Kevin Mchale to name a couple. Thats the problem with today’s NBA, people,such as yourself, missunderstand what a role player is,players take being a role player as a bad thing, as if its some scarlet letter that says your not that good. The great Micheal Jordan couldn’t win a championship until he was surrounded with good role players. As an example here’s a championship team breakdown:
1988 Lakers
Magic Johnson-Superstar
James Worthy-role player(superstar’s wingman)
Kurt Rambis-role player(banger,did the dirty work)
Micheal Cooper-role player(Spot up shooter,could post-up or drive if needed)
Kareem Abdul Jabar-role player(former superstar,now a reliable post threat)
90’s Chicago Bulls
Micheal Jordan-Superstar
Scottie Pippen-role player(superstar’s wingman)
Horace Grant-role player(reliable inside-out post player)
John Paxson-role player(Spot up shooter)
Bill Cartright-role player(reliable post player)

Both Pippen and Worthy are amongst the NBA’s fifty greatest players but without Jordan or Magic the teams weren’t that good. Without Worthy or Pippen the teams were still good maybe not championship caliber. Point is the players in the two era understood roles, being a role player doesn’t mean you can’t be a star, your a star with a role, that role is just not the focal point of your team. Now here’s a Hawks breakdown:
Joe Johnson-(Focal point but doesn’t want to be,could be a great Star’s or Superstar’s wingman)
Mike Bibby-role player(Spot up shooter who occasionally drives)
Josh Smith-role player(Superstar talent missing the mental aspect to become one)
Al Horford-role player(good post player not given an actual role)
Marvin Williams-role player(good inside-out player, also with no clear role)

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Mark,

You’re right. But for this to work, it has to be both encouraged and enforced by Mike Woodson. If he continues to ride his star pupil, then his star pupil will continue to do what he does. Namely, put up over 20 points a game, but not lead this team anywhere in particular.

It’s easy to say that guys like Horford and Smith have to work on their games, as so many people will say. They have been. They need to work more. But Mike Woodson has to begin extending that trust to them. If he does not, then his star pupil will not, either. He says he is not selfish. Prove it. But he can’t prove it. Not with Woodson riding his jock and his jumpshot. It’s really that simple.

By the way, Joe Johnson was the Hawks leading scorer during the regular season, and he should be with the entire offense revolving around him. How nice. But the leading scorer for the Hawks in the playoffs? Josh Smith. By a landslide. Also rated highest in player efficiency, and that was even with all of the stupid things he does. What does that say about Johnson? The excuses have to stop somewhere. He’s tired. He’s asked to do too much. Blah, blah, blah. He and Woody have the situation monopolized. This time it backfired. They should have beaten Miami 4 to 2. They should have lost to Cleveland 4 to 2 or 5 to 1. Yes I know, injuries and more injuries. Joe Johnson wasn’t injured against Miami, and he didn’t get hurt until getting beaten to death in the first two games against Cleveland. I tell you, it starts with Woodson. Then Johnson. Otherwise it doesn’t start at all.

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Chrome Dome, it is true that Joe and Marvin were doing some of the same things against the Cavaliers, but the problem was that Josh was focused and unfocused at different times in the game. His second half fade outs in both games at home were too obvious! Josh is very vocal in his assertion that he is a star, but a star works on his weaknesses. Both Jordan and James couldn’t shoot outside when they came into the league. They worked hard and the results speak for themselves. Josh has matured and puts forth exceptional effort when things are going good and got the nice contract. But, where is the hard work and improvement with going to his right, 15 ft jumper, man defense, running the baseline, fundamental rebounding, conditioning, and (this is real bad) above the rim finishing! The Hawks had a chance to win games 3 and 4, but Josh kept walking away from LeBron when he got hot and he stood aound and watched after having good first halves in both games. Cleveland said that Josh couldn’t score consistently to beat them and they were right! The problem is we cannot wait on his potential anymore. Take the dunks to Toronto where they need people in the stands and he can work off of Calderon and let Chris Bosh come here and take the pressure off Joe Johnson. Swap #1s with them and go after Thabeet. Do not resign Bibby and go after Ben Gordon. Sign and trade Marvin and Law for a decent point. Instant contender! Time is running out!

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A modest proposal:

Because the Hawks assistants all of 1 year contracts that expire soon, why not replace them with people like Paul Westphal and give him COMPLETE control of designing an offensive scheme that is built around the skills and abilities of the players and allows them the opportunity to perform well consistently. For player development, hire someone like Antonio davis who can develop our bigs into productive assets rather than just passers to /rebounders for iso Joe.And finally if trades are made and my guess is that there will have to be some because Houston will offer Bibby a better deal, think in strategic terms(3-5 years) rather than a quick fix.

Championship caliber organizations are not developed overnight and there is a core of talent on the current roster that can and should be developed into a championship team; they just need a better system and better leadership.

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Mark actually read the post I made and in this case read it again, superstars are born not made, whats your point, and beyond that what does that point have to do with my post. Of course taking more shots won’t make you a MJ or Magic,but as I recall Magic rarely shot unless he had to. Thats when your Superstars show up, when the team needs them. With all of Jordan’s numbers what stood out most is how he preformed when the team was in trouble,specifically in the 4th quarter,same goes for the Magic,Bird,Wilkins,Thomas,Malone, of that time period,maybe not Malone. As a sports writer can you honestly observe Josh Smith and say he doesn’t want the ball in the 4th quarter, no you can’t because its obvious that he does. As far as superstars not being made, we apparently have not watched the same NBA over the years, because as I remember Micheal Jordan came into the league as a hot-shot scorer, with time he developed his game on both ends of the court and most importantly he developed the mental aspects of his game. As I also recall Kobe did the same thing, he was an extremely talanted player straight out of highschool who wanted to be a Superstar before he developed his game at both ends of the court and the mental aspect of the game, what happened, he fell on his face. He thought he was a superstar before his time, after a couple of years of putting of outrageous numbers but continuing to lose he begin to listen to what players told him about building up his mental aspect of the game, one of those players was his former coach, Magic Johnson. Even as a young talented player himself Magic was pulled to the side by Kareem Abdul Jabbar, he was told that talent will only get you so far, you have to develop the mental aspect of the game and that was after leading the Lakers to a Championship over the 76ers where he played all five positions. To say that superstars are born not made is ignorant,Superstars are born with the talent,but it takes someone or something to bring it out, at the same time you have to want to be a superstar. If you can honestly watch Joe Johnson and say he doesn’t have superstar talent you shouldn’t be writing for Cox Enterprises, the problem is that its not what he wants its a role a coach has tried to force on him. Once again read the blog before you respond, I can see why theres such a negative tone to this blog, when the head of the blog is not actually reading the post before they respond.

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This is what I think:

1. every player has potential to be a star

2. when you draft and/or trade a player, it’s always gonna be a gamble, life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you gonna get. (bust or star) (better team or worst team) example: A.I. for Detroit/Billups for Denver- Kwame Brown/Lebron James

3. let say we get rid of woodson and the team finishes with a worst record, then what, lets say we keep woodson and still end up with a losing record, again what then. you just never know what is gonna happen. Isn’t that what makes life so great? The surprises.

4. No matter what decisions are made in the off season , there is always some one that gonna be unhappy. (which josh did you want to keep more than the other)

5. There is no guarantees in drafting and trading. (refer to the above examples or think of your own)

We are now down to the most irritating part of the season, the off season. Who stays, who goes. What’s best for the team? Who knows? All I know I’m glad I don’t have to make those decisions!

Now, who should have plays designed for them? I say everyone on the team since you never know when you’re gonna need to call upon them when times get ruff (injuries, sickness(flu)).

So yep Mark, I agree with you on this one. It’d be nice for the Hawks offense to be spiced up. I mean only use the Iso Joe plays when the situation calls for it. Let others on the team get more involved.

Just suprise me!

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Every player has a value to his or her team. I wonder what way that value will be used? Just surprise me!

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Johnson needs to step back for the Hawks to step forward. Yeah Mr. Bradley, I like this blog a lot. You actually present a solution to the Hawks’ problems that may actually work and certainly we fans can agree with. Well at least I do! It has a team feel to it! You know that there’s no I in team feel to it. I’m just getting excited just thinking about it. It would give other opponents a new look and perhaps they won’t be able to figure us out quite so easily.

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We need to move Joe. Period. Shooting guards are a dime a dozen in the NBA. Point guards and bigs are NOT. Should be able to move him for a pikc and an expiring contract or two. If you cannot get a pick then fine, we have a HUGE contract that will come off the books in one season.

Resign Bibby if we don’t think AC is the answer, but don’t pay him top dollar. If AC isn’t the answer, then we need to make sure we get a TRUE point guard in the draft.

Losing Marvin will be a big mistake. He is a tremendous threat offensively (if we start letting him be the GO TO guy) and he has a long wingspan allowing him to D up fairly well. If we let him go via sign and trade we WILL regret it. He is still very young and has had two good years in a row. Hawks need to take the brakes off him and let him dominate.

The core you HAVE to keep: Horford, Marvin, Smith, ZaZa (tough big man off the bench, which is hard to find in the NBA). That’s it. That’s three guys that can play multiple positions and a backup big man that is cheap. Then we need a true center and true point guard. Johnson is expendable. ZaZa is undervalued for what he brings the team off the bench, as he is one of the few Hawks that plays hard almost every time he hits the court.

Johnson is extremely expendable. He is a class act and a team player, but the reality of the NBA is that shooting guards are easy to find compared to other positions.

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Joe doesn’t have Superstar talent, are you kidding me. The man is a 6′8 shooting guard with unworldly long distant shooting range, he can drive and take anyone off the dribble when he wants to, and he can post up any one in the league, besides Kobe,Lebron,and D-Wade who else in the league can do that, its mentality Mark, you can duck and cover behind your AJC title but the truth is the truth, ever heard of the truth will set you free. When Joe wants it, he’s unstoppable,do some research and you will find that Boston traded Johnson to Phoenix because players felt that way about him, Phoenix brought him off the bench because they knew he had the talent but he wouldn’t use it in a starring role. Yes periodically he shows it more so in Atlanta but thats because he has a coach who is constantly trying to force him to do so, but when he’s needed, where is Joe, he’s somewhere caught up in his mental world of do I or don’t I. His talent is unquestionable,his mindset begs to differ. I can’t believe that you can’t see this man has superstar talent, basically you are pulling a Joe Johnson,coming up with excuses as to why a player so talented chooses not to be the superstar that he could be. I guarantee if it was possible to switch Josh Smith’s demeanor with that of Joe Johnson’s the superstar talk would involve Kobe,Lebron,D-Wade and Joe Johnson. Josh wants to be a superstar,but mentality wise he’s slow to understand what it takes,he is five years removed from highschool so thats to be expected, Joe has the mentality to know what it takes, he just doesn’t want it. Joe would be satisfied being the second option on a contender but he doesn’t want the glamour,praise,or accolades that accompany a superstar and thats okay. Whats not okay is to say that the man doesn’t have the ability.

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Here’s an interesting fact for all of you who are so eager to bust this team up. The Hawks were the sixth youngest team in the league this year, and the youngest team in the playoffs. (http://www.emptythebench.com/2008/12/10/whos-old-and-whos-not-in-the-nba/)

Keep in mind that of their top 8 or 9 guys, only Bibby is clearly past his prime, and some of their key pieces are not even close to their prime (Horford, Williams, Smith). Factor in the injuries, too, and it’s amazing that the Hawks were one of the last 8 teams playing. I say keep the main guys (if you can keep the free agents at a decent price), try to build a deeper bench, and let these guys continue to develop. This team was *awful* just two years ago, and it takes time in the NBA to turn things around.

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I posted this on Schultz’s blog, but I’m going to post it here, too:

I’ve been following the Hawks since the Hubie Brown era. To me the lesson of the Hawks (and the reason they stayed in the lottery for ten years) was that they decide that they have gone as far as they can with their team and decide to trade some key players rather than adding to what they already have. Look at their history:

Moving Tree Rollins and Randy Whitman to get Moses Malone and Reggie Theus
Moving Doc Rivers, John Battle and Spud Webb to get…I can’t even remember what they got back
Moving Smitty and Mookie to get JR Rider and Jason Terry
Moving Dikembe to get Toni Kukoc, Theo Ratliff (btw, wasn’t Speedy Claxton in that trade but he went back to Philly?)
Do I need to mention Dominique for Danny Manning for half a season?

I wouldn’t trade Joe, Marvin or Smoove unless someone came with an unbeatable offer. I would trade Acie Law if I could get something good for him – he really needs a change of scenery. I would re-up Bibby (for less money), Flip and Zaza. I’d like to see the Hawks add one or two veteran big men/enforcer types, a veteran backup point guard and get a quality player in the draft. Those moves would put you in the mid-50’s in terms of wins which would be a good next step.

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The Smith deal that I’d like to hear discussed more is Smith/Speedy to Phoenix for Amare’. He’s likely to opt out of his deal with the Suns after the next campaign, and the Suns will likely want a young athletic PF to replace him if they’re going to re-sign Nash and continue to run the floor with Barbosa and others. Can’t be certain Amare’ wouldn’t bolt Atlanta after next season, but pairing him with Joe – and perhaps a re-signed Bibby – just might give the Hawks the best chance of retaining them both beyond next year.

With a 2-3-4-5 quartet of JJ, Hedo, Amare’, and Horford, a moderately priced Bibby, a few solid complementary pieces, and a good draft and we’re perhaps ready for the next leap.

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Najah Davenpoop…..

Sorry I didn’t get back to your retort before now, but did you actually compare Josh Smith’s overall situation to Rasheed Wallace? Are you serious?

While Rasheed seems chemically imbalanced at times with his obsessiveness for getting T’ed up, he was also a very developed PF unlike Josh Smith who is just a good athlete with zero offensive game other than put backs, finishing in transition when no one pressures his dribble, and general offensive situations where he’s set up by someone’s elses dribble penetration.

“How is Marvin better than Josh other than outside shooting.”

…. Again, do you even watch basketball. The fact that Marvin can dribble and chew gum at the same time qualifies him to be a master of dribbling compared to Josh. The fact that he’s the best FT shooter on the team makes him a HUGE asset to this team in the 4th quarter in tight ball games or with the lead. The fact that he’s got a mid range game and developed his 3 point shooting to a moderately high level. The fact that he’s shown when given opportunities that he can score in the upper 20’s when Joe was out and he was given more opportunities. Translation: The offense could be run through him because he has MUCH better decision making abilities than Josh AND because he’s a much better passer than Josh.

Need I go on or is your sophomoric understanding of the game going to present some actual challenge.

Josh Smith is a tremedous athlete who can impact the game on the glass and defensively when he actually decided to play with effort. He also is a turnover waiting to happen, a bad decision waiting to happen, and only God knows what you’re going to get out of him every other night and yet we’re supposed to build around him.

Truth be told, I’d be for keeping him if we brought in the right coach who knew how to actually use the weapons that are on this team.

It’s nothing short of funny for anyone to throw stats out in a comparison like this because it’s all based on the opportunities that you’re given. Both Marvin and Josh would be benefited greatly if they were put in a better position to be successful. But they’re not and that’s the real point.

However, this part of the dicussion started with trying to figure out how we could add the pieces to actually beat Cleveland challenge for a championship. If we have to let someone go, either Josh Smith or Al Horford would be the guys I’d consider because every team needs a better guy at the 5, and a PG who can get it done. To me, those guys would bring enough value to possibly go after someone to fill those voids.

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[...] larger problems (their paper-thin depth, their flawed offensive scheme the wordsmith Mark Bradley nailed in his recent column and their inability to get ball pressure on the ball at the outset of offensive possessions, just [...]

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Mr. Bradley, your silence amidst all the calls for Mike Woodson’s head is conspicuous. You have evaluated every player, but not so much the coach. I think we can read between the lines that you think he’s taken the team as far as he’s going to take it and that the Hawks would best be served letting him go now. I say this because you change the players all you’d like, but Woodson is going to be Woodson and that means he’s not going to do things differently than what has got him this far.Are you holding your tongue on Woodson because of an access thing?

Thanks.

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