Johnson needs to step back for the Hawks to step forward

Once again, all this talk about Joe, Josh, Horford and Marvin is just a waste of time.

They are sports car with 5 speeds driven by Woody who is the equivalent of a 15 year old who doesn’t even know what a clutch is.

The players are the second part of the equation.

Joe Johnson should be used in a similar format to the way Boston uses Ray Allen.

Josh Smith should NEVER be on the perimeter.

You win games with a guy like Marvin. If you question him then question his ability to be healthy, but you’re a damn fool if you can’t see the ability this kid has. As someone stated before, when others have deferred to him or been out, then he’s repeatedly stepped up and had big games. Reading some of ya’lls take, you’d think you just thought that was just a coincedence.

If you’re going to trade anyone, you trade Josh Smith. REAL basketball guys don’t win championships with guys like Josh Smith because you can’t count on what this guy is going to give you game to game. His game is pathetically underdeveloped from the wing and is just a great athlete who makes plays off his physical abilities. The problem is, good teams who go deep in the playoffs easily negate that over the course of a series. His negatives BY FAR outweigh his positives minus the couple nights a year he actually puts an all around effort together. You’d get the most by trading him and getting a quality PF or even C in exchange.

In a perfect world, you’d trade Josh Smith for someone who can ball from the PG spot, and sign someone like the Birdman to play the 5 for you and be that intensity/energy guy who plays mad defense and boards like a Godzilla and gets all the garbage buckets. Then you develop Horford at the PF position and mold him to be similar to Elden Brandt’s game. You have to resign Flip because he’s the only guy that comes off the bench and provides a consistent spark.

BEFORE all that, you get a real coach who knows what the hell playoff winning basketball looks like on the offensive and defensive end. Personally, I think we could do a heck of a lot worse than a guy like Avery Johnson or someone similar. That would most definitely be an upgrade from where we’re at.

You don’t even have to know the game to understand our 1/2 court offensive approach is nothing short of a 3 ring circus. It’s violates so many fundamental rules of basketball that it’s not even funny. I know HS coaches that run better conceptual stuff than Mike Woodson.

Seriously. It’s that bad.

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“You win games with a guy like Marvin.”

The Hawks were 14-7 without Marvin this year. They were 6-7 without Josh.

“REAL basketball guys don’t win championships with guys like Josh Smith because you can’t count on what this guy is going to give you game to game.”

Sounds like what they said about Rasheed Wallace before Detroit acquired him in 2004.

“His negatives BY FAR outweigh his positives minus the couple nights a year he actually puts an all around effort together. ”

Josh had 20 double-doubles this year. Marvin had six. Yes, there are more ways to measure all-around contributions than stats, but this is one very easy way. Here are a few others: for all the talk of Josh’s poor shot selection and decision making, he shot a better percentage than Marvin over the course of the season and had the same assist/turnover ratio. And it goes without saying for anyone who watches Hawks games that Josh’s defensive impact far outweighs anything Marvin contributes on that end.

Serious question: can you name one thing, other than outside shooting, that Marvin does better than Josh? Because I can’t. Does he rebound better? No. Does he post up better? No. Does he play better defense? No. Does he pass better? Not even close. Does he handle the ball better? You could make an argument that he does since he uses his off hand better, but considering the number of times he gets stripped when he drives inside, I’d still say no.

Funny how every one of Josh’s mistakes is magnified and blown out of proportion, but when other players take equally bad shots, or make other equally damaging plays like missing box-outs, not rotating properly, driving into traffic and losing the ball (all things Marvin has done over the last few games) they go unmentioned.

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couple things about the playoff games since i’m on here: we were absolutely decimated by injuries .. our guys should be given major props for gutting it out .. if marvin and al had been 100 percent, the cleveland series would have been a different story .. everyone, including atlanta fans, have gotten caught up in the lebronocity of the nba .. cleveland is great and they will beat kobe in the finals, but the hawks are closer than y’all think .. if you watched every single game this season, you would know we only had our starting 5, in 41 contests .. additionally, during the 41 games we had our 5 strong, one, or even two, would be coming off an injury .. therefore, they would end up playing limited minutes, and shaking the rust off for a few games .. i’m proud of the effort we sustained for much of the season, and i look forward to seeing how much i will love or hate rick sund this summer .. GO HAWKS! STEVE HOLMAN RULES!

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Speedy should be plenty rested by now. That makes Bibby expendable, right?

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Najeh, I couldnt agree with you more……Marvin’s contribution to the hawks are just not as good as Josh’s. Marvin has a nice consistent jump shot to his game, but he is a very awkward player…….his ball handling and feet moving skills are not good at all….how many times did we see him trying to take his man of of the dribble just to see him lose the ball or get his feet tangled up and falling to the floor? Everybody wants to dog Josh about certain aspects of his game, but other than his jumpshot, Marvin hasn’t really been any more impressive, especially for a no. 2 draft guy.

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Najeh, right on … that was probably one of the better posts i’ve read, with tons of facts to support your case … I still think Marvin has some major upside but are we willing to risk continuing developing him with the lame injuries he keeps getting? it’s like one step forward and 2 steps back with marvin

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If they are going to continue to play Al at center, we need a better back up than Randolph Morris or Solomon Jones. Keep Zaza, he has a passion for the game and gets incrementaly better each year.

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i give marvin credit though, this would technically be his first season out of college had he stayed, so his development is not bad at all … depending on what he’ll be asking, we can easily find another 14/15 pt scorer who’s less injury prone (childress was another nice scorer for the team but also very injury prone, he needs a little more bulk on him … maybe he can load on carbs in greece) … ah, man i do miss the backdoor lay-ups that woody would run for j-chill … i don’t know if j-smoove has the basketball iq yet to fit into those plays

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Let’s stop ignoring the obvious here. Al Horford is as big as the Hawks are going to get if you want to see him and Josh Smith on the floor at the same time. Josh Smith is not a SF nor is he a sixth man. What they both have is a lot of legs and ability to catch balls on the rim. This lineup is built to run like NY but plays in the half court like Detroit. If you get bigger, you get slower, so either get a coach that supports the wide open style or be willing to part with either Josh or Marvin. Bottom line.

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Mark you claim that Joe is clearly more than a role player which contradicts your idea that Joe’s offensive focus needs to diminish. In the NBA your either the focal point or a role player. Take San Antonio for instant, in Tim Duncan’s earlier years he was the focal point of their offense as he has aged that role has shifted more toward Tony Parker. The Shaq-Kobe led Lakers went through the same process, Shaq was the focal point and Kobe played a role. Going back even further the Magic-Kareem led Lakers went through the same process. In his earlier years Kareem was the focal point and Magic played a role, as Kareem got older Magic already serving as the engine to the team became the focal point and Kareem played a role. Being a role player doesn’t take away from your skills or abilities and doesn’t necessarily make you any less of an all-star which Joe has been for the past few years. Some of the 50 greatest players in the NBA were role players, James Worthy, Kevin Mchale to name a couple. Thats the problem with today’s NBA, people,such as yourself, missunderstand what a role player is,players take being a role player as a bad thing, as if its some scarlet letter that says your not that good. The great Micheal Jordan couldn’t win a championship until he was surrounded with good role players. As an example here’s a championship team breakdown:
1988 Lakers
Magic Johnson-Superstar
James Worthy-role player(superstar’s wingman)
Kurt Rambis-role player(banger,did the dirty work)
Micheal Cooper-role player(Spot up shooter,could post-up or drive if needed)
Kareem Abdul Jabar-role player(former superstar,now a reliable post threat)
90’s Chicago Bulls
Micheal Jordan-Superstar
Scottie Pippen-role player(superstar’s wingman)
Horace Grant-role player(reliable inside-out post player)
John Paxson-role player(Spot up shooter)
Bill Cartright-role player(reliable post player)

Both Pippen and Worthy are amongst the NBA’s fifty greatest players but without Jordan or Magic the teams weren’t that good. Without Worthy or Pippen the teams were still good maybe not championship caliber. Point is the players in the two era understood roles, being a role player doesn’t mean you can’t be a star, your a star with a role, that role is just not the focal point of your team. Now here’s a Hawks breakdown:
Joe Johnson-(Focal point but doesn’t want to be,could be a great Star’s or Superstar’s wingman)
Mike Bibby-role player(Spot up shooter who occasionally drives)
Josh Smith-role player(Superstar talent missing the mental aspect to become one)
Al Horford-role player(good post player not given an actual role)
Marvin Williams-role player(good inside-out player, also with no clear role)

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Mark,

You’re right. But for this to work, it has to be both encouraged and enforced by Mike Woodson. If he continues to ride his star pupil, then his star pupil will continue to do what he does. Namely, put up over 20 points a game, but not lead this team anywhere in particular.

It’s easy to say that guys like Horford and Smith have to work on their games, as so many people will say. They have been. They need to work more. But Mike Woodson has to begin extending that trust to them. If he does not, then his star pupil will not, either. He says he is not selfish. Prove it. But he can’t prove it. Not with Woodson riding his jock and his jumpshot. It’s really that simple.

By the way, Joe Johnson was the Hawks leading scorer during the regular season, and he should be with the entire offense revolving around him. How nice. But the leading scorer for the Hawks in the playoffs? Josh Smith. By a landslide. Also rated highest in player efficiency, and that was even with all of the stupid things he does. What does that say about Johnson? The excuses have to stop somewhere. He’s tired. He’s asked to do too much. Blah, blah, blah. He and Woody have the situation monopolized. This time it backfired. They should have beaten Miami 4 to 2. They should have lost to Cleveland 4 to 2 or 5 to 1. Yes I know, injuries and more injuries. Joe Johnson wasn’t injured against Miami, and he didn’t get hurt until getting beaten to death in the first two games against Cleveland. I tell you, it starts with Woodson. Then Johnson. Otherwise it doesn’t start at all.

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Chrome Dome, it is true that Joe and Marvin were doing some of the same things against the Cavaliers, but the problem was that Josh was focused and unfocused at different times in the game. His second half fade outs in both games at home were too obvious! Josh is very vocal in his assertion that he is a star, but a star works on his weaknesses. Both Jordan and James couldn’t shoot outside when they came into the league. They worked hard and the results speak for themselves. Josh has matured and puts forth exceptional effort when things are going good and got the nice contract. But, where is the hard work and improvement with going to his right, 15 ft jumper, man defense, running the baseline, fundamental rebounding, conditioning, and (this is real bad) above the rim finishing! The Hawks had a chance to win games 3 and 4, but Josh kept walking away from LeBron when he got hot and he stood aound and watched after having good first halves in both games. Cleveland said that Josh couldn’t score consistently to beat them and they were right! The problem is we cannot wait on his potential anymore. Take the dunks to Toronto where they need people in the stands and he can work off of Calderon and let Chris Bosh come here and take the pressure off Joe Johnson. Swap #1s with them and go after Thabeet. Do not resign Bibby and go after Ben Gordon. Sign and trade Marvin and Law for a decent point. Instant contender! Time is running out!

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A modest proposal:

Because the Hawks assistants all of 1 year contracts that expire soon, why not replace them with people like Paul Westphal and give him COMPLETE control of designing an offensive scheme that is built around the skills and abilities of the players and allows them the opportunity to perform well consistently. For player development, hire someone like Antonio davis who can develop our bigs into productive assets rather than just passers to /rebounders for iso Joe.And finally if trades are made and my guess is that there will have to be some because Houston will offer Bibby a better deal, think in strategic terms(3-5 years) rather than a quick fix.

Championship caliber organizations are not developed overnight and there is a core of talent on the current roster that can and should be developed into a championship team; they just need a better system and better leadership.

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Mark actually read the post I made and in this case read it again, superstars are born not made, whats your point, and beyond that what does that point have to do with my post. Of course taking more shots won’t make you a MJ or Magic,but as I recall Magic rarely shot unless he had to. Thats when your Superstars show up, when the team needs them. With all of Jordan’s numbers what stood out most is how he preformed when the team was in trouble,specifically in the 4th quarter,same goes for the Magic,Bird,Wilkins,Thomas,Malone, of that time period,maybe not Malone. As a sports writer can you honestly observe Josh Smith and say he doesn’t want the ball in the 4th quarter, no you can’t because its obvious that he does. As far as superstars not being made, we apparently have not watched the same NBA over the years, because as I remember Micheal Jordan came into the league as a hot-shot scorer, with time he developed his game on both ends of the court and most importantly he developed the mental aspects of his game. As I also recall Kobe did the same thing, he was an extremely talanted player straight out of highschool who wanted to be a Superstar before he developed his game at both ends of the court and the mental aspect of the game, what happened, he fell on his face. He thought he was a superstar before his time, after a couple of years of putting of outrageous numbers but continuing to lose he begin to listen to what players told him about building up his mental aspect of the game, one of those players was his former coach, Magic Johnson. Even as a young talented player himself Magic was pulled to the side by Kareem Abdul Jabbar, he was told that talent will only get you so far, you have to develop the mental aspect of the game and that was after leading the Lakers to a Championship over the 76ers where he played all five positions. To say that superstars are born not made is ignorant,Superstars are born with the talent,but it takes someone or something to bring it out, at the same time you have to want to be a superstar. If you can honestly watch Joe Johnson and say he doesn’t have superstar talent you shouldn’t be writing for Cox Enterprises, the problem is that its not what he wants its a role a coach has tried to force on him. Once again read the blog before you respond, I can see why theres such a negative tone to this blog, when the head of the blog is not actually reading the post before they respond.

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This is what I think:

1. every player has potential to be a star

2. when you draft and/or trade a player, it’s always gonna be a gamble, life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you gonna get. (bust or star) (better team or worst team) example: A.I. for Detroit/Billups for Denver- Kwame Brown/Lebron James

3. let say we get rid of woodson and the team finishes with a worst record, then what, lets say we keep woodson and still end up with a losing record, again what then. you just never know what is gonna happen. Isn’t that what makes life so great? The surprises.

4. No matter what decisions are made in the off season , there is always some one that gonna be unhappy. (which josh did you want to keep more than the other)

5. There is no guarantees in drafting and trading. (refer to the above examples or think of your own)

We are now down to the most irritating part of the season, the off season. Who stays, who goes. What’s best for the team? Who knows? All I know I’m glad I don’t have to make those decisions!

Now, who should have plays designed for them? I say everyone on the team since you never know when you’re gonna need to call upon them when times get ruff (injuries, sickness(flu)).

So yep Mark, I agree with you on this one. It’d be nice for the Hawks offense to be spiced up. I mean only use the Iso Joe plays when the situation calls for it. Let others on the team get more involved.

Just suprise me!

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Every player has a value to his or her team. I wonder what way that value will be used? Just surprise me!

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Johnson needs to step back for the Hawks to step forward. Yeah Mr. Bradley, I like this blog a lot. You actually present a solution to the Hawks’ problems that may actually work and certainly we fans can agree with. Well at least I do! It has a team feel to it! You know that there’s no I in team feel to it. I’m just getting excited just thinking about it. It would give other opponents a new look and perhaps they won’t be able to figure us out quite so easily.

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We need to move Joe. Period. Shooting guards are a dime a dozen in the NBA. Point guards and bigs are NOT. Should be able to move him for a pikc and an expiring contract or two. If you cannot get a pick then fine, we have a HUGE contract that will come off the books in one season.

Resign Bibby if we don’t think AC is the answer, but don’t pay him top dollar. If AC isn’t the answer, then we need to make sure we get a TRUE point guard in the draft.

Losing Marvin will be a big mistake. He is a tremendous threat offensively (if we start letting him be the GO TO guy) and he has a long wingspan allowing him to D up fairly well. If we let him go via sign and trade we WILL regret it. He is still very young and has had two good years in a row. Hawks need to take the brakes off him and let him dominate.

The core you HAVE to keep: Horford, Marvin, Smith, ZaZa (tough big man off the bench, which is hard to find in the NBA). That’s it. That’s three guys that can play multiple positions and a backup big man that is cheap. Then we need a true center and true point guard. Johnson is expendable. ZaZa is undervalued for what he brings the team off the bench, as he is one of the few Hawks that plays hard almost every time he hits the court.

Johnson is extremely expendable. He is a class act and a team player, but the reality of the NBA is that shooting guards are easy to find compared to other positions.

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Joe doesn’t have Superstar talent, are you kidding me. The man is a 6′8 shooting guard with unworldly long distant shooting range, he can drive and take anyone off the dribble when he wants to, and he can post up any one in the league, besides Kobe,Lebron,and D-Wade who else in the league can do that, its mentality Mark, you can duck and cover behind your AJC title but the truth is the truth, ever heard of the truth will set you free. When Joe wants it, he’s unstoppable,do some research and you will find that Boston traded Johnson to Phoenix because players felt that way about him, Phoenix brought him off the bench because they knew he had the talent but he wouldn’t use it in a starring role. Yes periodically he shows it more so in Atlanta but thats because he has a coach who is constantly trying to force him to do so, but when he’s needed, where is Joe, he’s somewhere caught up in his mental world of do I or don’t I. His talent is unquestionable,his mindset begs to differ. I can’t believe that you can’t see this man has superstar talent, basically you are pulling a Joe Johnson,coming up with excuses as to why a player so talented chooses not to be the superstar that he could be. I guarantee if it was possible to switch Josh Smith’s demeanor with that of Joe Johnson’s the superstar talk would involve Kobe,Lebron,D-Wade and Joe Johnson. Josh wants to be a superstar,but mentality wise he’s slow to understand what it takes,he is five years removed from highschool so thats to be expected, Joe has the mentality to know what it takes, he just doesn’t want it. Joe would be satisfied being the second option on a contender but he doesn’t want the glamour,praise,or accolades that accompany a superstar and thats okay. Whats not okay is to say that the man doesn’t have the ability.

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Here’s an interesting fact for all of you who are so eager to bust this team up. The Hawks were the sixth youngest team in the league this year, and the youngest team in the playoffs. (http://www.emptythebench.com/2008/12/10/whos-old-and-whos-not-in-the-nba/)

Keep in mind that of their top 8 or 9 guys, only Bibby is clearly past his prime, and some of their key pieces are not even close to their prime (Horford, Williams, Smith). Factor in the injuries, too, and it’s amazing that the Hawks were one of the last 8 teams playing. I say keep the main guys (if you can keep the free agents at a decent price), try to build a deeper bench, and let these guys continue to develop. This team was *awful* just two years ago, and it takes time in the NBA to turn things around.

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I posted this on Schultz’s blog, but I’m going to post it here, too:

I’ve been following the Hawks since the Hubie Brown era. To me the lesson of the Hawks (and the reason they stayed in the lottery for ten years) was that they decide that they have gone as far as they can with their team and decide to trade some key players rather than adding to what they already have. Look at their history:

Moving Tree Rollins and Randy Whitman to get Moses Malone and Reggie Theus
Moving Doc Rivers, John Battle and Spud Webb to get…I can’t even remember what they got back
Moving Smitty and Mookie to get JR Rider and Jason Terry
Moving Dikembe to get Toni Kukoc, Theo Ratliff (btw, wasn’t Speedy Claxton in that trade but he went back to Philly?)
Do I need to mention Dominique for Danny Manning for half a season?

I wouldn’t trade Joe, Marvin or Smoove unless someone came with an unbeatable offer. I would trade Acie Law if I could get something good for him – he really needs a change of scenery. I would re-up Bibby (for less money), Flip and Zaza. I’d like to see the Hawks add one or two veteran big men/enforcer types, a veteran backup point guard and get a quality player in the draft. Those moves would put you in the mid-50’s in terms of wins which would be a good next step.

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