Numbers for Medicaid expansion don’t add up
Obamacare supporters want to talk numbers when it comes to expanding Medicaid in Georgia. OK, let’s talk numbers:
When they returned last month, Georgia’s legislators already faced a $774 million hole for Medicaid through June 2014. That was before any expansion, and even after assuming renewal of the “bed tax” that brings in some $700 million a year for the program.
Medicaid is already the fastest-growing part of Georgia’s budget. Including PeachCare for kids, it will consume $1 of every $7 in state funds in fiscal 2014, up from $1 per $9 a decade ago.
That increased ratio means almost $616 million will go to Medicaid next year instead of transportation, tax cuts, whatever. State lawmakers can do precious little to arrest the trend.
Still, Obamacare supporters want Medicaid to grow faster.
Pressure is mounting on Nathan Deal to follow the path taken by some other Republican governors — Florida’s Rick Scott and New Jersey’s Chris Christie joined the list in the past eight days — and accept the expansion included in Obamacare.
At first, they note, Washington will pick up the tab. Only after three years will the feds begin reducing their share of the expansion, to 90 percent by 2020. How long that rate sticks, I note, will depend on the generosity — or profligacy — of future Congresses.
But today I want to address two other arguments the expansionists are pushing.
Scott made one argument last week when he announced support for expanding in Florida: “[O]ur options are either having Floridians pay to fund this program in other states while denying health care to our citizens,” he said, or taking federal money to expand Medicaid.
The same claim is made here. We’re going to pay for it, so why not benefit from it?
The arrangement might make sense if it were Washington whose budget was balanced and the state whose finances were in shambles, not the other way around.
The notion taxpayers are already funding the Medicaid expansion requires one to ignore the serially large deficits Washington is running — as well as lawmakers’ reluctance to accept the relatively small cuts of sequestration, due to hit Friday.
Spending that rises while huge deficits persist is not “paid for” in any meaningful sense. Scott, Christie and the others are wrong about the responsible course.
And persist deficits will. Just this month, the Congressional Budget Office projected only two years out of the next 11 in which the deficit will be smaller than the very largest deficit (adjusted for inflation) between 1940 and 2008. That’s probably an optimistic take: CBO’s belief the deficit will soon fall to “only” $430 billion in 2015, before rising in each subsequent year, rests on the hope our sluggish economy is about to achieve and maintain a growth rate not seen in a decade and a half.
Speaking of rosy forecasts, another new argument is that expanding Medicaid in Georgia by $4 billion a year over 10 years (the federal share) would create thousands of jobs and boost our economy by more than $8.1 billion a year, a 103 percent return on “investment.”
A review of federal jobs data and state health expenditures makes me skeptical. Using the most recent figures available for both, and adjusting them for inflation, a five-year average for both Georgia and the entire nation showed there was one direct health-care job for roughly every $200,000 spent on health care annually. That $8.1 billion economic boost assumes one direct health-care job would be created for every $110,000 spent.
It’s possible newer jobs would be created more efficiently. But if the earlier average of $200,000 per job held up, and even if we accept the study’s other multipliers, the return on “investment” may be closer to 20 percent — $4 billion in new spending creating $5 billion of activity — than 103 percent. That’s not worth raising state taxes to fund our share of the cost.
The bases for weighing the Medicaid expansion are whether the state can afford its portion, whether we can count on the feds to deliver on their promises, and whether we should expand Medicaid before reforming it. All three answers remain “No.”
– By Kyle Wingfield
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354 comments Add your comment
Jack ®
February 28th, 2013
5:51 am
Of course liberals want to expand Medicare. No surprise there. More dependency on the government is exactly what they want.
Aynie Sue
February 28th, 2013
5:57 am
Yes, the state can afford to spend a few million in order to get a few hundred million in federal aid. Yes, the feds will deliver on their promise: the federal government can borrow money at nearly 0% interest for whatever Republicans prevent it from raising by tax reform. Yes, we should expand Medicaid immediately and reform it gradually, steadily, and continually, like any other program.
The expansion of Medicaid will create lots of jobs by injecting millions more dollars in the state economy. All the Medicaid funds will be spent and circulated; none will be parked in fancy financial instruments or used to finance corporate mergers, buy-outs, buy-ins, and buy-offs, which eliminate jobs and reduce competition. The additional jobs will create consumer demand for more goods and services, and private capital will be attracted to invest in job-creating enterprises in our state. That’s called growing the economy.
Injecting and circulating money boosts the economy; penny-pinching and pettifogging shrinks the economy and dims the prospect of future prosperity. It’s a matter of simple arithmetic, not opinion. You need not master long division to understand it.
Mr_B
February 28th, 2013
6:33 am
“The notion taxpayers are already funding the Medicaid expansion requires one to ignore the serially large deficits Washington is running ”
I’m sorry, Kyle, but it does no such thing. The idea that liberals are unconcerned about rising deficits, and more to the point,,the rising debt is specious. Those of us on the left just don’t think it’s a good idea to pay off the credit cards by not borrowing the money to replace the roof the tornado blew off.
The long term solution is to completely restructure the way we deliver healthcare so as not to allow expenditures to consume one sixth of our GDP.
Meanwhile, (since even most of your regulars probably would object to folks dying on our sidewalks and that even lower income people will get healthcare of some sort somewhere,) why would you object to getting our Georgia dollars in-state to help those closest to us?
Mr_B
February 28th, 2013
6:36 am
Oh, and if you can show me a mutual fund that returns 20%, I’m all over that baby.
South Georgia Retiree
February 28th, 2013
6:44 am
Yes, we should expand Medicaid in Georgia. Who, or what other source, will help our poorer, uninsured citizens obtain health insurance? This will relieve pressure on emergency rooms and unpaid hospital stays, and at the same time provide a jobs boost for our state. The Governor is negligent if he doesn’t accept this federal help. Regardless of what one thinks of the federal deficit, this is the only way these folks will have any kind of insurance.
We are in a health insurance crisis now because our government and large insurers have procrastinated and didn’t work together for a solution, even though they knew this crisis was looming. This should have been resolved many years ago when our economy was stronger, instead of now, when we’ve hit bottom. Let’s help these uninsured citizens and Georgia’s economy by taking the money and doing some good.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 28th, 2013
6:57 am
The first question is “how will obozocare pay for itself?” Even better, “how many trillions will obozocare add to the deficit.” And then, the next question, “at this point, what does it even matter?” Oops, wrong question. And then, the next question, “since obozo has already defined mediscare as a state pogrom, why would the fed pay even one thin dime for it?”
A Simple Man
February 28th, 2013
7:07 am
Mr. B
“I’m sorry, Kyle, but it does no such thing. The idea that liberals are unconcerned about rising deficits, and more to the point,,the rising debt is specious.”
Doesn’t sound false to me. Every liberal on television says there is no spending problem and refuses to consider even the smallest of cuts. The answer to every problem is a tax hike.
Jefferson
February 28th, 2013
7:18 am
You can go forward, or like GA , go backwards. Those health care needs will not go away, and you will pay more insurance profits and premiums, so go ahead and give your labor to them rather than start on a solution.
Mark your calendar
February 28th, 2013
7:22 am
Medicaid expansion will suddenly make sense for Georgia the morning after election day, November 2014. Conservatives will find a way to rationalize their support for the governor’s new position. The state will lose a few hundred million in the meantime, but so it goes.
USC
February 28th, 2013
7:26 am
I guess Wingfield thinks he understands this financial decision better than the Republican anti-Obama Governors who thought it through, used their best accountants and advisors, coming to the conclusion that only a fool would turn down 100 percent funding for Medicaid. There is still a small group that are willing to sacrifice the healthcare of others and even pay extra to watch them suffer. Sounds sadistic and mean which is how the old Confederacy has always played out (selfish and stupid as well).
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
February 28th, 2013
7:27 am
“[O]ur options are either having Floridians pay to fund this program in other states while denying health care to our citizens,” he said, or taking federal money to expand Medicaid.
——————————-
The greedy parasite’s version of “eff you, I’ve got mine”.
Take, take, take.
obiwan
February 28th, 2013
7:29 am
Aynie Sue
Are you on drugs, how is borrowing money to spend good for the economy? Devaluing the dollar is good right? Spending more money than we have is good right? I guess liberals really are that dumb…
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 28th, 2013
7:29 am
“The long term solution is to completely restructure the way we deliver healthcare so as not to allow expenditures to consume one sixth of our GDP.’
Your party and President Incompetent tried that already, Mr. B.
It has already failed, and you wasted almost 2 years of creating jobs doing it.
Some of us would rather not repeat the mistake at the local level.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 28th, 2013
7:31 am
Over the last few weeks, there has been increased speculation that the sequester would go into effect Friday but be addressed in a March deal to keep the government funded.
Don’t bet on it.
Sen. Richard Burr (R-N.C.), a member of the Finance Committee, predicted sequestration would last through the end of the year.
“Are we going to roll back the size of the cuts? No. I can promise you that,” said Burr. – Duh Hill
Victory! (albeit a minor one.)
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
February 28th, 2013
7:34 am
Mr_B: Those of us on the left just don’t think it’s a good idea to pay off the credit cards by not borrowing the money to replace the roof the tornado blew off.
———————–
Those on the left think it’s a good idea to borrow money to buy $27 a gallon biofuels for Navy ships, to spend billions on soon-to-fail solar, battery, and auto companies, and to send fighter jets to the Muslim Brotherhood. Don’t pretend that you pretend to care about the debt. Your messiah is busy increasing it just as fast as he can, and you cheerlead for it.
Thomas Heyward Jr
February 28th, 2013
7:41 am
“Numbers for Medicaid expansion don’t add up.”
.
And you’re surprised?
.
Ponzi scheme numbers never add up.
.
But don’t worry….Nathan Deal will cave.
Republicans ALWAYS do.
They’re just getting their graft/numbers reconciled.
.
And remember……..there is still alot of wealth left out there that’s sub-taxed.(booze, cigarettes,gasoline, 401Ks………)
.
Kyle better get HOT on “reforming” that Republican party………from within……..while we still have a few pennies left.
.
lol
Georgia , The "New Mississippi"
February 28th, 2013
7:42 am
Kyle other states can and will make this work for the benefit of the general population. The elected leaders have higher overall educational levels and can “figure out” how to make it work. What they may lack in education they make up for with a combination of morals and integrity. Georgia voter’s reject these ideas. Every man for himself and God for us all.
independent thinker
February 28th, 2013
7:42 am
Our health care system is totally broken. The pecentage of GDP we pay for health care is not sustainable- more than double other western countries with sane public health care programs. That is why World Health Organization rated US no 37 in health care.
Just read this week’s Time Magazine and see the mega profits hospitals are making off paying patients whose costs are not controlled by Medicaid and Medicare. VA and Medicare actually pay true costs of services.
Of course when someone passes a joke of socialized health care requiring an unfunded mandate for treatment of anyone who is breathing and shows up for treatment in an emergency room, you get such disproportionate cost shifting.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 28th, 2013
7:49 am
Aynie Sue
Are you on drugs, how is borrowing money to spend good for the economy? Devaluing the dollar is good right? Spending more money than we have is good right? I guess liberals really are that dumb
These liberals know exactly what they are doing. They hate America and would just as soon see it lying on the ash heap of history. What a better way to achieve that goal than saddling it with a crushing debt load, devaluing the dollar, pumping up inflation and unleashing high interest rates upon the massive debt? Sounds like a ben bernake program at work, don’t it?
And now, courtesy of the public schools system that we continually heap money upon, we are stoopid enough to let them get away with it. Some are even simply oblivious to this imminent threat and mindlessly rejoice over their “free” condoms and blog with joy in their hearts.
Enjoy your ride to the bottom.
Numbers-R-US
February 28th, 2013
7:55 am
If only the Georgia GOP had implemented policies that improved the state and local economies and increased jobs over the past ten years or so, we would not have so many people in need. Instead, Kyle and Co. would have us focus on someone, anyone, else as the source of the problems here.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
February 28th, 2013
7:55 am
VA and Medicare actually pay true costs of services.
————————–
A laughable, ignorant falsehood.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 28th, 2013
7:57 am
WHO ratings are meaningless, not so independent non-thinker.
Already debunked multiple times.
Please pay attention.
Thomas Heyward Jr
February 28th, 2013
7:57 am
Approximately 16,000 new IRS agents will be hired to help oversee the implementation of Obamacare, and the Obama administration has given the IRS 500 million extra dollars “outside the normal appropriations process” to help the IRS with their new duties.
.
I can promise you………….the Kenyen will NOT be cutting those guys out of the fake budget cuts.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 28th, 2013
7:58 am
Why do liberals never complain about the high cost of a college education? You could get a heart, liver and lung transplant with a lifetime warranty for the average cost of one semester. When will they set upon the faculty lounges with their fascist brutalities?
Thomas Heyward Jr
February 28th, 2013
8:00 am
It’s true: You are 64 times more likely to be killed by your doctor than by someone else wielding a gun. That’s because 19,766 of the total 31,940 gun deaths in the USA (in the year 2011) were suicides. So the actual number of deaths from other people shooting you is only 12,174.
Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/038889_doctors_guns_statistics.html#ixzz2MCM6RIfq
.
Just Wait until Obama-care fully kicks in.
Numbers-R-US
February 28th, 2013
8:01 am
Meanwhile we anxiously await the positive economic impact on Georgia of a new stadium and the scores of direct and indirect jobs from Caterpillar’s tax-free plans, etc. Do tell us more, Kyle.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
February 28th, 2013
8:01 am
Speaking of rosy forecasts, another new argument is that expanding Medicaid in Georgia by $4 billion a year over 10 years (the federal share) would create thousands of jobs
———————————-
Obozo’s spent $6 trillion more than the government took in. He spent about $3 trillion more than Our President Bush would have, had His spending trajectory continued into the last four years. And yet, unemployment is still higher today than it was when Obozo took office.
So much for that “stimulus” argument.
Numbers-R-US
February 28th, 2013
8:03 am
Why do liberals never complain about the high cost of a college education? You could get a heart, liver and lung transplant with a lifetime warranty for the average cost of one semester. When will they set upon the faculty lounges with their fascist brutalities?
Phoenix University says What!
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
February 28th, 2013
8:09 am
Red herring, Numb.
The outrageous costs of higher education will never be addressed by progs. More money to the folks pushing their liberal fascist agenda is not a problem to them.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 28th, 2013
8:12 am
The excessive costs of our current medical system can be classified into three major categories:
• The first, and by far the largest excess cost, is due to the current overuse of medical resources by patients. Overuse is the rational response of consumers who do not have to pay the entire cost of the medical services they use. The causes of those excess costs are Medicaid, Medicare, and tax laws that provide incentives for individuals to have their employers purchase their medical care in the form of private health insurance.
• The second category of excess cost consists of administrative and paperwork costs that are unnecessary for the provision of health care, but that have come into existence because of the current patchwork of third-party payers and their attempts to control their increasing costs by closely monitoring the behavior of doctors and patients. Even worse is the fact that those cost-containment activities do not seem to have contained costs very well. -1994
So let’s expand it!
Can I get a duh?
southpaw
February 28th, 2013
8:15 am
“Phoenix University says What!”
Southpaw says “Look at some other universities with higher prices, and either turn up your hearing aid or get one.”
Folks, get ready for possible overuse of the “hearing aid” comment. It’s coming when I notice a lack of hearing (e.g., by Phoenix University).
curious
February 28th, 2013
8:15 am
Based on comments here, we should eliminate all public funding for healthcare and education. Once the bottomless well of public money dries up, we’ll see costs get more reasonable or at least stop rising almost exponentialy.
Thomas Heyward Jr
February 28th, 2013
8:17 am
Questions during the debates……………America’s last chance back in 2010————–
Q: How do you propose to keep Medicare financially solvent?
RON PAUL: Well, under these conditions, it’s not solvent and won’t be solvent. If you’re an average couple, you would have put $140,000 into it. And in your lifetime, you will take out more than three times that much. So a little bit of arithmetic tells you it’s not solvent, so we’re up against the wall on that, so it can’t be made solvent. It has to change. We have to have more competition in medicine. And I would think that if we don’t want to cut any of the medical benefits for children or the elderly, because we have drawn so many in and got them so dependent on the government, if you want to work a transition, you have to cut a lot of money. Some revamping has to occur. What we need is competition. We need to get a chance for the people to opt out of the system. Just–you talk about opting out of Obamacare? Why can’t we opt out of the whole system and take care of ourselves?
.
OPT-OUT………….Imagine that.
.
Paul was ridiculed……….and the Republican Progressives voted for the Step-Father of Obama-Care.
.
Romney-Bots………..shouldn’t complain.
.
lol
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 28th, 2013
8:18 am
Meanwhile, the White House is backing off its prior warnings that the sequester will strike a quick and devastating blow to the economy.
A senior GOP aide on Wednesday highlighted news reports that Obama’s political advisers now concede the cuts will not immediately disrupt federal services, managing public expectations in the wake of dire warnings.
Yeah, no kidding. How much foam was spilt over………… nothing?
How many lies were told right to your face?
Numbers-R-US
February 28th, 2013
8:19 am
Meanwhile Kyle should note that there are fifteen direct jobs created for each McDonalds that opens thereby proving that greasy fast-food provides a 1400% direct return with the added benefit of untold numbers of indirect jobs in healthcare down the road. And all at no cost to the tax payers! What a DEAL!
Aquagirl
February 28th, 2013
8:19 am
since even most of your regulars probably would object to folks dying on our sidewalks and that even lower income people will get healthcare of some sort somewhere
You’ve confused this blog with another one.
independent thinker
February 28th, 2013
8:21 am
Yeah Aesop I love that lie that Obama was cutting $716 billion from Medicare and Granny won’t get medical care followed by the same liars stating Obama refuses to cut entitlements. Amazing- that’s why those liars belong to the stupid party
Numbers-R-US
February 28th, 2013
8:21 am
Southpaw apparently thinks he made a relevant comment about his broken hearing aid.
indigo
February 28th, 2013
8:25 am
Aesop – 7:49 “these liberals know exactly what they are doing. They hate America”
What a load of sh*t.
That sort of hysterical rhetoric explains why most of us here consider you to be a true bottom feeder.
southpaw
February 28th, 2013
8:27 am
I don’t have a hearing aid–broken or otherwise. Don’t need one. And I’m not the one pointing out who can’t hear and says “What” as a result. Now if Phoenix University is surprised, instead of hard of hearing, I’ll say nothing about hearing aids.
Just Saying..
February 28th, 2013
8:29 am
The bases for weighing the Medicaid expansion…
The basis for weighing the Medicaid expansion…
Cherokee
February 28th, 2013
8:29 am
What indigo said.
Cherokee
February 28th, 2013
8:32 am
“current overuse of medical resources by patients”
Yeah that’s the ticket – if those crazy Americans would just stop looking to the medical field for help when they get sick, all our problems would disappear!
Voila, thanks Aesop, for bringing that to our attention…
Cherokee
February 28th, 2013
8:35 am
Kyle there are lots of hospitals – typically small ones in rural areas – that are providing free medical care to poor people. Now, that cost is passed on to other insured folks who use those facilities. The federal government is offering to ease that burden.
Sorry, but that’s a no brainer… take the Medicaid expansion, Governor Deal.
you can't fix stupid or Democrats
February 28th, 2013
8:39 am
America soon than later the bills will have to be paid. I wonder when China will want its money? We need to cut up those credit cards.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 28th, 2013
8:43 am
And don’t forget the power in numbers in bringing down costs.
jconservative
February 28th, 2013
8:45 am
Actually there is nothing wrong with the current health care delivery system in Georgia and the nation. If one gets sick and has no insurance, the system absorbs the costs by increased fees to those companies and individuals holding private insurance plans.
Centrist
February 28th, 2013
8:52 am
Folks who don’t now qualify for free medical care under the already over generous Medicaid program are free to move to Florida and New Jersey to get it. At least for New Jersey it will raise the average IQ for that state along with Georgia’s.
Aynie Sue
February 28th, 2013
8:52 am
Listen up all you deficit whiners! Which do you prefer: a shrinking national debt with a depressed economy, or a growing national debt with a recovering economy?
Those are the only two choices. A recovering economy and austerity are incompatible. There is only one way to prop up or kick-start a struggling economy: a massive infusion of money, obtained by federal borrowing or, better yet, by taxing those who have money to lend.
And, don’t bring up that malarkey about private investment taking up the slack. Private investors don’t squander capital in a struggling economy with low labor participation and low consumer demand. They invest capital whenever the economy is stable and the prospects are promising.
Republicans have the debt/recovery formula backwards: they borrow money in times of plenty, and demand austerity in times of recession and stagnation. President Reagan initiated big-time, peace-time government borrowing, and squandered it on tax cuts and useless military projects. President Bush killed the federal surplus he inherited by giving massive tax cuts to the rich, and borrowed to finance a counter-strategic war in Iraq and a futile war in Afghanistan. Now, as our nation struggles to recover from the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression, Republicans criticize federal deficit spending and demand austerity.
What’s up with you people? Will you never learn from your long history of mistakes?
Stephenson Billings
February 28th, 2013
8:54 am
“The excessive costs of our current medical system can be classified into three major categories:”
Yea, that’s a big “Duh!”. Imagine how much your auto insurance would be if you used it for oil changes and tire repair… and how much more those services would then cost?
Stephenson Billings
February 28th, 2013
8:56 am
“And don’t forget the power in numbers in bringing down costs”
To quote Kamchak (as much as I abhor to do so), “The NHS says ‘What?’”
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 28th, 2013
9:02 am
Good story on how much cheaper drones are compared to manned aircraft and the defense contractors who stand to lose billions of our tax dollars.
you could just as easily point out all kinds of things about drones that lean in favor of unmanned craft. Like, uh, death and capture. You bring down an F-35 and a pilot, trained at incredible expense and very hard to replace, is either killed or captured. If he’s dead, your investment is dead too. If he’s alive, he’s a bargaining chip for your enemy and a great candidate to make demoralizing, weepy “Forgive me, peace loving people of wherever I am-land!” videos. No drone has ever made one of those videos. When a drone is brought down, the operator gets up from his chair and has to file a report. Then he moves to the next drone. No loss of trained personnel whatsoever, no casualties, no torture, no risk of political pressure.
http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/sleazy-military-contractors-are-crying-foul-over-drones-they-stand-lose-billions
Cherokee
February 28th, 2013
9:02 am
jconservative – that only apples to emergency care, not something like diabetes, or high blood pressure, or any other disease that requires ongoing care.
And I always wonder why requiring everyone to carry some kind of health insurance – in other words, being resposible – is so offensive to conservatives.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 28th, 2013
9:04 am
What’s up with you people? Will you never learn from your long history of mistakes?
Bingo, we have a winner!
bluecoat
February 28th, 2013
9:04 am
The only way to stop dependency on the Gov.For the Gov. to stop supporting.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 28th, 2013
9:05 am
“Those are the only two choices.”
Only in what passes for your joke of a mind, Aynie Sue.
“Will you never learn from your long history of mistakes?”
Cries the person who voted for President Incompetent – twice!
Don't Tread
February 28th, 2013
9:05 am
“Obamacare supporters want Medicaid to grow faster.”
0bama supporters want to abolish personal freedoms and have socialsim, Communism, Fascism, “progressivism” (or whatever benign-sounding term they use these days) to take over.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 28th, 2013
9:08 am
“And I always wonder why requiring everyone to carry some kind of health insurance – in other words, being resposible – is so offensive to conservatives.”
Because you don’t understand actual responsibility, Cherokee.
Responsibility is not something that is mandated by government, at least not for the responsible person.
The responsible person does what is responsible IN SPITE of government – not because of it.
Cutty
February 28th, 2013
9:15 am
Kyle and the rest of the peanut gallery didn’t get the memo because they’re still playing politics with Obamacare. Jan Brewer, Chris Christie, Sandoval, Scott and other GOP governors obviously see the benefit of expanding Medicare via ACA.
I trust Christie’s policy decisionmaking more than someone that voted for Newt and Mitt w his gut feelings.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 28th, 2013
9:26 am
What a load of sh*t.
Everything I said is happening right before our very eyes, if you’d like to prove otherwise, be my guest.
Filling your diaper doesn’t show us anything except your immaturity.
bluecoat
February 28th, 2013
9:37 am
Millions to Syria rebels.Millions we do not have.More people on medicaid.Soon all our people will be helpless.Most by choice.A few elected trying to disrupt the country just because they are not happy with the majority vote.The high cost of Iraq,Afgh.wars,we got into by deception,now we will pay forever to get out.Shear the sheep.
Jefferson
February 28th, 2013
9:46 am
The party of stupid is strong here.
bluecoat
February 28th, 2013
9:51 am
I thought Fla.was NJ.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 28th, 2013
9:51 am
This is what privatization of government duties gets you:
Immigration officials sought out undocumented immigrants to apprehend for minor crimes in order to boost deportation numbers a trove of internal correspondence revealed last week
They boost their numbers and get to take home more of our tax dollars for NOT doing their job. Just great. And you Cons want to privatize what next? Food inspections?
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-for-profit-immigration-imprisonment-racket-20130222
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 28th, 2013
9:54 am
Responsibility is not something that is mandated by government, at least not for the responsible person.
So government doesnt care if you commit murder, pee on the sidewalk, walk around naked, pour your poop into the river south of Lake Lanier.
Got it.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 28th, 2013
9:55 am
Cries the person who voted for President Incompetent – twice -
Aynie Sue voted for W?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 28th, 2013
9:58 am
“The party of stupid is strong here.”
You’re right, Jefferson.
Far too many Democrats on this blog.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 28th, 2013
9:58 am
“Got it”
Actually, Finn, your response proves that you don’t.
Utterly typical of you, however.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 28th, 2013
9:59 am
Part of living in a society is that there are rules and norms. Healthcare is meant to protect us from each other. Think of the person with influenza on the airplane or in our schools. The whole purpose is to limit the effects of such situations.
Having sick people get medical attention is an important part of maintaining a functioning society. If Tiberius wants to go live on a deserted island, that’s cool. He won’t have to pay taxes or contribute to any societies. We would all be better off.
southpaw
February 28th, 2013
10:07 am
“The NHS says ‘What?’”
Southpaw says, “Who?”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHS
Scooter
February 28th, 2013
10:17 am
How do you talk numbers with people who believed the government could force insurers to cover everyone and lower their premiums?
md
February 28th, 2013
10:20 am
Create jobs? I doubt it very seriously, and even seeing it doing just the opposite:
“President Obama’s former economic advisor, Christina Romer, calculated in a seminal paper published before her stint as CEA chief, that tax increases used to support increased spending (as opposed to deficit reduction) reduce the size of the economy by $2 to $3 for every dollar of new taxes raised. In that case, every new Medicaid-related job actually costs the economy at least 3 to 4 jobs elsewhere (i.e., 1 job that effectively was shifted into the health sector plus another 2-3 lost because the economy shrank as a consequences of the adverse effects of taxes used to bankroll the expansion).”
Add to that the fact that Obamacare only pays for 50% of added administrative costs, which then must come from somewhere else in a balanced budget state or higher taxes………
md
February 28th, 2013
10:23 am
“And I always wonder why requiring everyone to carry some kind of health insurance – in other words, being resposible – is so offensive to conservatives.”
Maybe because Obamacare comes nowhere close to achieving that?
JDW
February 28th, 2013
10:27 am
@Tiberius…”WHO ratings are meaningless, not so independent non-thinker., Already debunked multiple times. Please pay attention.”
Not intended to be a factual statement…like so many from this source. How you coming on that Constitutional budget requirement…found that part yet?
Jefferson
February 28th, 2013
10:32 am
Reasonable people can come to reasonable conclusions under reasonable conditions unless you are a republican
Jefferson
February 28th, 2013
10:33 am
T – check with your hero bobby j who said it, don’t try to rewrite it – he said STUPID.
Jefferson
February 28th, 2013
10:34 am
Just like the boy who said Romney was the WORST person to run against the president.
MarkV
February 28th, 2013
10:46 am
The most remarkable fact about Kyle’s article is that he tacitly attacks the argument people like governors Rick Scott and Chris Christie have made without even trying to refute it. The basic argument is that the people of the state that declines the federal money contribute, through their taxes, to the expansion of Medicaid in those states that accept the money, but their government deprives the people in their own state of those benefits.
What does Kyle substitute for the denial of the above undeniable argument? First, that the federal government has a deficit and likely to have one in the future. Is that a reason for a few states to sacrifice the health of their people? How much will that cure the deficit?
The other argument, even though not discussed in detail in Kyle’s article, is “whether we can count on the feds to deliver on their promises.” That is a particularly silly argument, one for those “what if” arguments one reads on this blog all the time. What if the Chinese want their money back? What if the borrowing results in high inflation? And so on.
Should I drive today? What if I am hit by a drunk driver? Should I walk? What if I get hit by lightning? Should I stay at home? What if it catches fires?
JDW
February 28th, 2013
10:49 am
@Kyle…”The bases for weighing the Medicaid expansion are whether the state can afford its portion, whether we can count on the feds to deliver on their promises, and whether we should expand Medicaid before reforming it. All three answers remain “No.” ”
Sounds a lot like whining to me….lets break it down. Can “the state can afford its portion”?
“A 2011 Urban Institute report estimated that Georgia’s Medicaid program expenditures would increase by only $1.5 billion over 2014-2019.[i] The federal government would spend an extra $21.2 billion for Georgia’s Medicaid program during the period.”
That equates to 2.8% of the Georgia state Medicaid budget…can you really say with a straight face that you are going to turn down $21.2 billion over a 2.8% budget Medicaid budget increase?
Now for this beauty “whether we can count on the feds to deliver on their promises”
Who cares…if they don’t withdraw then.
As for the last “should expand Medicaid before reforming it”
Guess what, we don’t live in a perfect world and sometimes you have to take advantage of the opportunity biting you in the butt. Repugnicans don’t have that choice, aren’t driving that discussion and have no chance to do it in the short term.
So the real answer to the question is the same answer Republican Governor after Republican Governor keep making…get with the program or be prepared for the consequences or at the very least take the advice of your doctor…
“The Georgia chapter of the American College of Physicians believes that it is imperative that the state of Georgia accept the unique opportunity that is now available to use federal dollars to expand Medicaid to everyone who has an income up to 133% of the federal poverty level.”
http://www.acponline.org/about_acp/chapters/ga/ga_medicaid_report.pdf
yuzeyurbrane
February 28th, 2013
11:02 am
Kyle, as I have scolded you many times, stick to political, not economic, analysis. You just can’t cut the mustard there and diminish your thoughtful political insigts, especially re GOP politics. I have read a number of non-partisan analyses of the Medicaid expansion provision, including academic sources, and find their conclusions much more credible than yours. It sounds like you are reading from a list of discredited talking points provided you by Governor Deal’s office. For example, Deal consistently has stated the states share of expansion would be more than $4 billion over 10 years while even the most conservative non-partisan analysis concludes it will be about $2 billion. That is more than a math error. It is a starting point which is a falsehood. Your numbers on the economic multiplier effect also seem to be at significant variance with the numbers from credible analysts. Further, you are a deficit hawk at the Federal level who exhibits little or no understanding how the Federal budget interacts with the economy. And, since you are anti-government (not in any seditious sense), you allow your ideology to cloud your ability to analyze. Most importantly, you seem to have no sense of empathy or any meaningful private market alternative to providing health care for over 600,000 Georgia citizens who are receiving wretched health services under the current system.
Stephenson Billings
February 28th, 2013
11:04 am
Welcome to the “new normal”
Wage Recession Hits 5 Years; Worse Than Jobs Drought
“As bad as the current job recovery has been — and it’s by far the weakest since World War II — the recovery in wages has been far worse.
Five years after the recession began in December 2007, total wages in the economy have yet to fully recover in real terms, Commerce Department data show. In other words, the wage recession continues.
By comparison, the longest previous post-war wage recession, which began with the 2001 downturn, was over in 2-1/2 years, even though that jobs recession lasted four years.”
http://news.investors.com/economy/022813-646108-wage-recession-worse-than-jobs-slump.htm
breckenridge
February 28th, 2013
11:05 am
Currently 40% of all children born in America are born to a parent or parents on Medicaid. It’s time we fiscal conservatives demand a zero tolerance policy on this affront to taxpayers, a policy which combines comprehensive sex education, easily available low cost or no cost birth control and no hassle access to abortion.
Stephenson Billings
February 28th, 2013
11:06 am
Leading like a champ… not….
Republican leaders’ sequester ‘meeting’ with Obama: Seven minutes
“Never let it be said that President Obama has failed to spend time with Republican leaders in seeking an alternative to automatic budget cuts that are due to hit most federal departments Friday. On Wednesday, for example, the president gave GOP lawmakers as much as seven minutes, a rare face-to-face encounter that the White House described as a “meeting.” ”
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/feb/27/obama-top-lawmakers-will-meet-friday-budget-cuts/
Stephenson Billings
February 28th, 2013
11:09 am
Oh, the humanity!
Federal bonuses are early casualty in sequestration
“The White House budget office has told federal agencies to slow down new hiring, curtail travel and conferences, and to stop doling out bonuses unless absolutely required to by law, according to a new memo released late Wednesday.”
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/feb/28/federal-bonuses-are-early-casualty-sequestration/
Commonscents
February 28th, 2013
11:11 am
MARKV, JDW, Yuzeyurbrane shhhhhhhh……you’re using common sense analysis(no pun intended to my username) which does not compute in politics. Kyle must continue with the Obama is bad articles! It’s what he’s paid for(because he cannot REALLY believe in the stuff he writes).
md
February 28th, 2013
11:21 am
“The White House budget office has told federal agencies to slow down new hiring, curtail travel and conferences, and to stop doling out bonuses unless absolutely required to by law, according to a new memo released late Wednesday.”
Shouldn’t have to wait for a sequestration to enact simple cost cutting moves. It’s a bit like fraud in Medicare/caid, the misfits can tell us over and over that it exists but it seems to never get taken care of………
md
February 28th, 2013
11:24 am
And I see our resident left leaners continue to overlook the fact that many states are by law balanced budget states…….and the solution to all this added cost is what??
Where do you all propose the cuts be made elsewhere or do you all advocate more taxes on others to pay for it?
independent thinker
February 28th, 2013
11:25 am
If you put aside Kyle’s hysterical rant about further costts of Medicaid and this state’s budget and do a little simple research on how the godfather of Obamacare, Romney and Kennedy got the excess to be absorbed primarily by the feds and private insurers:
“”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”Since the late 1990s, Massachusetts has also received additional Medicaid funds to enroll populations that other states traditionally do not cover. In 2005, when Romney was governor, the federal aid amounted to $550 million. As former Romney adviser John McDonough explains in his book “Inside Health Policy,” the funds were crucial to laying the foundation for universal health coverage. Governor Romney reached out and formed a partnership with Senator Kennedy to scheme how to keep the extra federal dollars coming. At that moment, the state’s mundane desire to retain federal dollars merged with the policy goal of universal coverage to create a new policy imperative. Romney and Kennedy proposed that Massachusetts keep receiving the extra payments and in return the state would shift the use of those dollars [to] subsidies to help lower-income individuals purchase health insurance coverage.”
Ryan Lizza recounts a similar version of events in his New Yorker article on Romneycare. That state ultimately secured three years of additional Medicaid funding, $1.05 billion, which largely financed the Massachusetts expansion. Both accounts suggest that it was a special commitment from the federal government, rather than a capped budget, that spurred Massachusetts’ success.”"”"”"”"”"”"”
Of course most cons like Kyle do not even acknowledge that Romneycare exists, was the basis of Obamacare and that it works.
Typical for the stupid party.
md
February 28th, 2013
11:34 am
Ummm, MA is currently in the process of putting legislative caps on medical spending in order to slow down the freight train that is so successful.
Do you know what that means in a free market? it means folks saying screw you, I’ll go do something else with my time and money if that is all you are going to pay……
http://news.heartland.org/newspaper-article/proposed-caps-massachusetts-doctor-payments-could-lead-shortages
md
February 28th, 2013
11:36 am
“Massachusetts lawmakers have passed first-of-its-kind legislation to limit ever-increasing healthcare costs by aiming to save the state $200 billion during the next 15 years.
Cost-controlling measures within the bill include charging insurers a tax, expected to total $60 million over the next four years, that would be earmarked for a public trust fund covering preventive care and encouraging the creation of accountable care organizations, the New York Times reported.”
A tax on insurers………that is so sad it isn’t even funny. Even sadder is the fact that many consumers won’t have a clue that it is them paying that tax…….
getalife
February 28th, 2013
11:37 am
“‘GROWTH’: 0.1%..”
The gop are job killers..
Stephenson Billings
February 28th, 2013
11:39 am
“Ummm, MA is currently in the process of putting legislative caps on medical spending in order to slow down the freight train that is so successful.”
But, but, according to Finn (and others), increasing the number of insured is supposed to lower costs….
JDW
February 28th, 2013
11:43 am
@md…”the solution to all this added cost is what??”
Well if it bothers you that much lets have a sales tax increase to pay for it…based on our GDP of around $418B annually, assuming it doesn’t grow a dollar we will need to bump sales taxs by 6/10,000 of one percent to handle it. That means that if you spend $1000 at the local mall it will cost you an additional 60 cents….
Now don’t you feel silly?
Stephenson Billings
February 28th, 2013
11:43 am
“WHITE HOUSE THREATENS WOODWARD: ‘YOU WILL REGRET DOING THIS’…”
Obama = thug
md
February 28th, 2013
11:52 am
And what cost are you basing those numbers on jdw? How did you arrive at the cost for the additional 50% increase in administrative costs? I think you are way low on your projections, but I’ll wait for you to give me the costs you are using and we can go from there……
JDW
February 28th, 2013
12:08 pm
@md…look at the prior post…projected state costs are $1.5 billion from 2014 to 2019
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right
February 28th, 2013
12:10 pm
Responding to JDW’s blather is always a waste of time, but to clear up the error in relying on the WHO ratings for health care, the intelligent know that they use deaths as one of their benchmarks for determining quality of health care – ALL deaths.
Doesn’t matter if they are murders, accidental, suicides – you name it – they all go into their calculations for our life expectancy numbers and therefore skew our overall rating numbers.
In short, they cook the books.
We know it as lying, which makes it all the more astonishing that liberals don’t recognize that which they excel at.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right
February 28th, 2013
12:16 pm
And aren’t we all relieved that this administration found that minuscule growth in a disastrous 4th quarter to avoid being tied to another recession on their watch. . .
md
February 28th, 2013
12:17 pm
@md…look at the prior post…projected state costs are $1.5 billion from 2014 to 2019
GA projects program costs of 4.5 billion over ten years, and as I understand it that does not include any additional job costs that will be associated with servicing 700,000 new people, so I don’t think that 1.5 number is anywhere close to being correct.
indigo
February 28th, 2013
12:27 pm
Stephenson Billings – 11:04
The Great Bush Recession is so bad that it will still be many years before we get back to any sense of “normal”.
It’s no accident that so many of us already are declaring George W. to be the worst president in US history.
md
February 28th, 2013
12:28 pm
From the ajc:
“State officials estimated that the Medicaid expansion would cost Georgia $4.5 billion over 10 years, and the state already is facing a $300 million shortfall this year for the program.”
md
February 28th, 2013
12:31 pm
“It’s no accident that so many of us already are declaring George W. to be the worst president in US history. ”
And I’m sure you will find an equal number of folks that will say the same thing about the current guy to this point.
So what does that do for us?
Stephenson Billings
February 28th, 2013
12:31 pm
“The Great Bush Recession is so bad that it will still be many years before we get back to any sense of “normal”. ”
Ah yes, Bush Derangement Syndrome is still alive and well. Don’t worry, Obama’s “laser like focus” on jobs will cure it…. oh, wait….
JDW
February 28th, 2013
12:31 pm
@Tiberius…”Doesn’t matter if they are murders, accidental, suicides – you name it – they all go into their calculations for our life expectancy numbers and therefore skew our overall rating numbers.”
“Skewed” by facts…thats your argument
I suppose the other data points like infant mortality, cost of care, access to care and obesity are “skewed” too.
Go on back to studying the Constitution so you can provide us with more of your insightful fabrications.
JDW
February 28th, 2013
12:35 pm
@md…”State officials estimated that the Medicaid expansion would cost Georgia $4.5 billion over 10 years, and the state already is facing a $300 million shortfall this year for the program.”
It has already been noted that little bit of fantasy is unsupported by any creditable third party analysis….but lets say that in spite of all odds Repugnican math is right for once…now it costs $1.80 per $1000 in purchases…still an outrageous bargain.
JDW
February 28th, 2013
12:38 pm
@md…”And I’m sure you will find an equal number of folks that will say the same thing about the current guy to this point. ”
Actually no you won’t. But do continue.
md
February 28th, 2013
12:45 pm
“Actually no you won’t. But do continue.”
Too funny, seeing as how those numbers are not available, it’s a bit comical that you declare victory when none is achievable………
SeeLow
February 28th, 2013
12:58 pm
Enter your comments here
JDW
February 28th, 2013
1:07 pm
md…”Too funny, seeing as how those numbers are not available”
It’s not that they aren’t available…they are so available that anyone with an interest should know them. Here’s just one…
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2010/07/02/survey-ranks-obama-15th-best-president-bush-among-worst
HDB
February 28th, 2013
1:18 pm
Lil’ Barry Bailout – OBAMAPHONE!!!
February 28th, 2013
7:34 am
“Those on the left think it’s a good idea to borrow money to buy $27 a gallon biofuels for Navy ships, to spend billions on soon-to-fail solar, battery, and auto companies, and to send fighter jets to the Muslim Brotherhood. Don’t pretend that you pretend to care about the debt. Your messiah is busy increasing it just as fast as he can, and you cheerlead for it.”
Lets’s see: taking the advice of the Joint Chiefs to become more energy INDEPENDENT….and taking that advice further so that the nation finally gets on the path advocated by REPUBLICANS in the past….saving American industries to mitigate a recession/depression aren’t good ideas?? Please inform us as to what would be!!
The US is the ONLY MAJOR industrialized nation that doesn’t have universal health care; Theodore Roosevelt advocated for this over a century ago! If this nation had the vision to embrace this ideology, we wouldn’t have to address these issues now! Since we must…..if we can progress towards the single-payer system (yes, the transition would throw some for a loop….), this would start bringing the cost of health care DOWN….along with practicing some PREVENTIVE medicine…starting with diet….
SeeLow
February 28th, 2013
1:22 pm
Currently 40% of all children born in America are born to a parent or parents on Medicaid. Currently 40% of all children born in America are born to a parent or parents on Medicaid. It’s time we fiscal conservatives demand a zero tolerance policy on this affront to taxpayers, a policy which combines comprehensive sex education, easily available low cost or no cost birth control and no hassle access to abortion.
With a federal mandate to abort should the parents forego birth control and education?
md
February 28th, 2013
1:23 pm
“Well if it bothers you that much lets have a sales tax increase to pay for it…based on our GDP of around $418B annually, assuming it doesn’t grow a dollar we will need to bump sales taxs by 6/10,000 of one percent to handle it. That means that if you spend $1000 at the local mall it will cost you an additional 60 cents….”
Sales tax revenue is roughly 6 billion annually jdw, so your math is way off………
JDW
February 28th, 2013
1:29 pm
@md…”Sales tax revenue is roughly 6 billion annually jdw, so your math is way off”
Not so much…problem with our sales taxes is the exemptions…GDP is $418 billion annual and that is what should be taxed. That aside…$1.5 billion over 5 years is $300 million a year. So you would need a 5% bump in the current 7% rate which equals 35 basis points.
md
February 28th, 2013
1:31 pm
“It’s not that they aren’t available…they are so available that anyone with an interest should know them. Here’s just one…”
Another funny…..makes one wonder who they polled.
I doubt seriously that the 47% of the country that just voted for another guy to be the president would do so if they thought Obama was in the top 15……..
md
February 28th, 2013
1:34 pm
“Not so much…problem with our sales taxes is the exemptions…GDP is $418 billion annual and that is what should be taxed. That aside…$1.5 billion over 5 years is $300 million a year. So you would need a 5% bump in the current 7% rate which equals 35 basis points”
Am I surprised you want to tax the crap out of everything? No……which is why you are who you are.
And advocating for just a little 5% bump huh…….you must have missed the part about currently having a 300 million shortfall in the program, you also need to account for that.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
1:54 pm
Another funny…..makes one wonder who they polled.
Probably the same conservative polls that showed Romney winning
This is a classic conservative move.
Dont like the results blame the polls.
How did that work out on election day ?
independent thinker
February 28th, 2013
1:55 pm
I see that Mr. Tiberius, a resident spokesperson for the stupid party is questioning the findings of the World Health Org. in their finding that the US no 37 in overall delivery of health care . Apparently cost and efficiency does not matter since the cons designed a socialist system with Reagan’s passage of EMTALA and now we got more socialism with the bed tax..
“”"”"”"”"”"2 years ago, the World Health Organization released the World Health Report 2000. Inside the report there was an ambitious task — to rank the world’s best healthcare systems.
The results became notorious — the US healthcare system came in 15th in overall performance, and first in overall expenditure per capita. That result meant that its overall ranking was 37th.
Click here to see who beat the US >
The results have long been debated, with critics arguing that the data was out-of-date, incomplete, and that factors such as literacy and life expectancy were over-weighted.
So controversial were the results that the WHO declined to rank countries in their World Health Report 2010, but the debate has raged on. In that same year, a report from the Commonwealth Fund ranked seven developed countries on their health care performance — the US came dead last.”"”"”"”"”"
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/best-healthcare-systems-in-the-world-2012-6?op=1#ixzz2MDoOC5dm
JDW
February 28th, 2013
1:59 pm
md…”And advocating for just a little 5% bump huh…….you must have missed the part about currently having a 300 million shortfall in the program, you also need to account for that.”
A $300 million shortfall in a program within a $19.2 billion budget is chump change…as Raw Deal knows….see that’s the point the numbers are tiny in relation to the big picture. This whole mess is about partisan politics…the other Repugnicans are taking their medicine, my guess is Raw Deal does as well.
md
February 28th, 2013
1:59 pm
“Dont like the results blame the polls.
How did that work out on election day ?”
As I said, common sense dictates that if 47% of voters voted to change the President then it is highly unlikely they would have him in the top 15 of all time……
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 28th, 2013
2:00 pm
A day after Woodward’s claim that a senior White House official had told him he would “regret” writing a column criticizing President Obama’s stance on the sequester, Lanny Davis, a longtime close advisor to President Bill Clinton, told WMAL’s Mornings on the Mall Thursday he had received similar threats for newspaper columns he had written about Obama in the Washington Times. – WMAL
What’s that word again? Oh yeah, fascism.
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
February 28th, 2013
2:01 pm
Well, we are #37, while Cuba is much higher, and still fighting a 19th Century like Cholera outbreak. If they are so dang progressive, you would think they could eliminate a disease caused by poor sanitation.
WHO about as objective as MSNBC!
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 28th, 2013
2:02 pm
Only 6% Rate News Media As Very Trustworthy
What’s that word again? Oh yeah, tools.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
2:03 pm
As I said, common sense dictates that if 47% of voters voted to change the President then it is highly unlikely they would have him in the top 15 of all time……
47 percent is actually pretty low for a challenger. Kerry got 48 percent in 2004
Romney got pretty much destroyed. The exact opposite of the way Fox News ( lol ) and the conservative media saw it.
Of course they are wrong almost every day
Difference is that day somebody was keeping score.
New York Times nailed it. They had it exactly right.
Funny how that worked out huh
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
2:08 pm
Every single first world country has universal healthcare.
They all spend much less and get better results than we do.
Duh.
Of course the knuckle dragging conservatives will complain kick and scream all the way.
But Obamacare is here to stay.
Its over.
If a Republican bubba governor wont do his job then the federal government will
Just like in the South during segregation etc.
Ever notice how the red states are the biggest takers and have the lowest education levels ???
Coincidence…..hardly.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
2:12 pm
At a time when the Republican Party’s image is at a historic low, 62% of the public says the GOP is out of touch with the American people, 56% think it is not open to change and 52% say the party is too extreme…
Id say those numbers are a lot worse than Obama’s opponent getting 47 percent of the vote.
Kyle Wingfield
February 28th, 2013
2:12 pm
I don’t have time to respond to everyone today, but I did want to take issue with yuze’s 11:02 since it appears intended as an attack on my character, and certainly my credibility. It reads, in part:
“It sounds like you are reading from a list of discredited talking points provided you by Governor Deal’s office. For example, Deal consistently has stated the states share of expansion would be more than $4 billion over 10 years while even the most conservative non-partisan analysis concludes it will be about $2 billion. That is more than a math error. It is a starting point which is a falsehood.”
In fact, the very study which expansionists are using to trumpet the economic boost of $8.1B that a bigger Medicaid would bring says the state cost would be $4.5B from 2014 to 2023. For comparison’s sake, the cost from 2014 to 2019 comes to about $1.7B, which is fairly close to the $1.5B JDW cited in his 10:49 mention of another (older, I’d note) study.
If you take a moment to think about it, the fact that the state would be paying 10 percent of the cost in four of those 10 years — importantly, the last four of those 10 years, when costs presumably would be highest — means it makes perfect sense for the state’s cost to be fairly close to 10 percent. It’s even more logical when you consider that the first three years, when the feds are supposed to pay 100 percent, are the years when enrollment is projected to be ramping up — and thus 100 percent of the cost in those years actually equals less in total dollars than in the latter years when the federal match is 90-95 percent.
Now, as noted in the study, the point some expansionists have made is that some of the $4.5B in state costs will materialize anyway, because some people who currently are eligible for Medicaid but aren’t enrolled in it are expected to join the problem due to the so-called woodwork effect (as in, people will come out of the woodwork to sign up for the program). But how many of those people will actually do so if Medicaid isn’t expanded to others? In other words, will the woodwork effect be so large if there’s no expansion — and thus less publicity about joining the program? I tend to think not, though I think reasonable people can disagree about that.
In any case, for the purposes of this discussion it does not matter which portion of the increased cost would come from the expansion and which portion from the woodwork effect, because the economic arguments in favor of expansion tend to include the $40B federal match figure that covers both parts, not just the part that owes to the expansion. The expansionists want to have it both ways: The state cost is really only the part due to expansion, but look at all the money we’d get from both parts! That’s a disingenuous argument. OTOH, in my piece I stuck with one basis to make my arguments. The $40B figure is the one that tends to get the most attention, so I went with that basis (that is, the one with both expansion and woodwork effect).
But then, all this information is included in the link in the OP about the alleged benefits of expanding Medicaid. I’ll repeat it here for a third time in this comment. If you want to have this discussion, I suggest you yuzeyurmouse to click the link and yuzeyureyes to read it before you try to yuzeyurkeyboard to question my integrity.
Kyle Wingfield
February 28th, 2013
2:19 pm
Rafe @ 2:01: One of the WHO’s criteria for ranking countries’ health-care systems is whether they’re publicly funded. It is a left-wing bias built into a supposedly objective study. So, we should not be surprised that the U.S. ranks behind a number of countries with socialized medicine.
There are other problems with the study, such as the fact its life expectancy numbers aren’t adjusted for things like murders and fatal injuries that have nothing to do with health care. Not that Cheesy wants to let the facts get in the way of a long-time favorite talking point.
Politico
February 28th, 2013
2:26 pm
Kyle
Don’t know much about WHO, so I am not defending or implicating them and their rankings.
With that said are they not using the same criteria you state in the second paragraph for all countries or just as a bias against the US?
Don't Tread
February 28th, 2013
2:28 pm
Kyle @ 2:12
yuzeyereyes, yuzeyermouse, yuzeyerkeyboard….too funny
I needed that.
Politico
February 28th, 2013
2:33 pm
Kyle
2nd paragraph of your 2:19 post.
Sorry about that.
Kyle Wingfield
February 28th, 2013
2:36 pm
Politico: Same criteria for all. The point is, what do those things have to do with the quality of health care?
Kyle Wingfield
February 28th, 2013
2:36 pm
Put another way, would you rather be operated on in Cuba just because lots of people get shot in Chicago?
Jefferson
February 28th, 2013
2:37 pm
Look where the GOP is, a back dirt road to nowhere…
Reasonable people can come to reasonable conclusions under reasonable conditions, unless you are a republican.
Rings truer everyday.
Numbers-R-US
February 28th, 2013
2:43 pm
Kyle continues to use fluff-n-stuff as his basis for his arguments.
Politico
February 28th, 2013
2:54 pm
Kyle
Nice spin. Again, I don’t know much about WHO and certainly not how these rankings coming about. They could be as biased as you say, but of course you are coming from a biased narrative that wouldn’t give them any credit unless it met your narrative.
Truth probably is in between somewhere but really not worthy of any investigation and more time. Was just asking because your statements about WHO were as slanted as you claim them to be.
But as always, thanks for the reply.
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
February 28th, 2013
3:03 pm
Kyle, thanks for the info, I knew it was biased, just did not know the means used to get the info they desired. Anything from the UN or their associates is usually incredibly anti US, gotta keep the anti-American potentates, despots, and dictators happy.
independent thinker
February 28th, 2013
3:06 pm
If I understand the cons on this blog, it is okay if Georgia puts a cap on Medicaid expenditures and covered services and limit services to the poor and illegals (as required by Saint Ronald’s program). However it is definitely not okay if the state of Massachusetts which has universal health care puts any limits on services and expenditures. Are these the same cons who said it is not okay for Obama to trim $716 billion from Medicare for private profits of insurers under George W’s Medicare Advantage plan. Granny sure needs that free gym membership to survive, but its okay with the same cons if her co-pay skyrocket under Medicare Advantage so an insurer can profit and pay big bonuses?
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
3:10 pm
only 12,174.
“Only”
Meanwhile in countries where guns are illegal the number is closer to 12.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
3:11 pm
Kyle, thanks for the info, I knew it was biased,
Everything is biased to Cons
Unless they agree with it.
Its how they get through the day.
Kyle Wingfield
February 28th, 2013
3:14 pm
Politico: To be clear, the only bias I’m accusing WHO of has to do with including public funding of health as a criterion for rating countries. That’s an obvious ideological bias on WHO’s part, as that’s a subjective criterion for a supposedly objective exercise. Or do you really believe favoring public funding is objective on WHO’s part?
The other elements aren’t necessarily bias, they just have the effect of making the U.S. look worse than it really is.
Ray
February 28th, 2013
3:15 pm
Jconservation says: “Actually there is nothing wrong with the current health care delivery system in Georgia and the nation. If one gets sick and has no insurance, the system absorbs the costs by increased fees to those companies and individuals holding private insurance plans.”
This is an ignorant view of what actually happens in the real world. There are no guarantees a hospital is going to give you the care you need. They don’t provide chemotherapy, organ transplants in emergency rooms, and they rarely even set bones. Forget about hip replacements that one needs to return to gainful employment. If you don’t have the dough you can easily be left to die, or be crippled for life. Too many people die of cancer or organ failures during the six month waiting period to get on Medicaid.
We view life as precious, or we don’t. Is it priority number one?
Cutty
February 28th, 2013
3:15 pm
Integrity- A firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values.
Kyle think his integrity is being questioned because he believes that health insurance shouldn’t be expanded to the hundreds of thousands of uninsured Georgians. I think you’re giving a good reason why it should be questioned. Ironic that you constantly rag on the federal government led by a democrat, but nary a peep about the clown car at the Gold dome that can’t even get the car tax right.
Kyle Wingfield
February 28th, 2013
3:16 pm
Cheesy @ 3:10: So, what does that have to do with the quality of health care in the U.S.? Or are you just going to change the subject to gun control now that your favorite statistic’s flaws have been aired?
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
3:16 pm
So, we should not be surprised that the U.S. ranks behind a number of countries with socialized medicine. ,/i>
Not just a number Kyle.
ALL OF THEM.
They ALL have lower rates of heart disease. Diabetes. Infant Mortality rates are generally lower.
All while spending half as much. They believe in an ounce of prevention you know.
Its cheaper than the pound of cure later.
Of course you can sit there smugly claiming its the sun that goes around the earth and not the other way around.
History will not be kind to your point of view.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
3:17 pm
Or are you just going to change the subject to gun control now that your favorite statistic’s flaws have been aired?
No we can stay right here.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
3:18 pm
So, we should not be surprised that the U.S. ranks behind a number of countries with socialized medicine.
Not just a number Kyle.
ALL OF THEM.
They ALL have lower rates of heart disease. Diabetes. Infant Mortality rates are generally lower.
All while spending half as much. They believe in an ounce of prevention you know.
Its cheaper than the pound of cure later.
Of course you can sit there smugly claiming its the sun that goes around the earth and not the other way around.
History will not be kind to your point of view.
Kyle Wingfield
February 28th, 2013
3:20 pm
Cutty: And it’s ironic that your snark about my integrity requires you to ignore the part of yuze’s statement that I said wrongly questioned my integrity, and about which I wrote several hundred words, and change the subject.
Btw, if you think I never criticize Georgia’s Republicans, you must skip all the pieces I write about ethics reform, the problems with last year’s tax reform, their unwillingness to increase school choice, etc. You might prefer that I criticize them from the left, rather than the right, but all those pieces hardly constitute “nary a peep.”
Kyle Wingfield
February 28th, 2013
3:21 pm
Cheesy: And as I pointed out, ranking behind all of them is to be expected when one of the criteria is that the country have socialized medicine. It’s called rigging the data.
JDW
February 28th, 2013
3:23 pm
I see lots of folks don’t like the WHO or thier message but it is not just the WHO other rankings from The Commonwealth Fund and OECD also pan the US system. Then there is just the plain fact…we spend WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY more than anyone else….
•Pharmaceutical prices in U.S. >>> 60% higher than five large European countries
•Hospital services in U.S. >>> 60% higher than OECD average (11 countries)
•Normal delivery in U.S. >>> more than 50% higher than in France or Canada
•Caesarean section in U.S. >>> 30% higher than France, over 50% higher than Canada
•Hip replacement >>> 45% higher than in France or Canada
•Knee replacement in U.S. >>> 20% higher than France, 50% higher than Canada
for results like these:
Life Expectency—#25
Infant Mortality–#29
Cancer Deaths–#11
% Population Obese–#1 (thats a bad thing)
http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/social-issues-migration-health/health-key-tables-from-oecd_20758480
Bottom line it doesn’t matter who does the research…we are lacking…just look at the results.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
3:23 pm
Infant Mortality Rate
Canada 4.5 per 1,000
USA 6.9 per 1,000
But im sure that’s just biased because of all the shootings in Chicago.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
3:24 pm
Btw, if you think I never criticize Georgia’s Republicans, you must skip all the pieces I write about ethics reform, the problems with last year’s tax reform, their unwillingness to increase school choice, etc.
Softballs all.
If those articles were a boxer they would call you old pillowhands.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
3:26 pm
Bottom line it doesn’t matter who does the research…we are lacking…just look at the results.
No dont you know.
Those results are rigged.
And the polling was skewed during this last election.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
3:31 pm
Kyle Wingfield
Presidential prediction: The candidate who defies history and wins will be . . .
My gut tells me Romney picks up North Carolina, Florida, Virginia, Colorado and at least one of Michigan/Ohio/Pennsylvania — and will become the 45th president of the United States.
That is the problem with these people JDW. They think with their gut and Brownie is doing a heckuva job.
They love America like a two year old loves Mommy. Anybody says anything bad about Mommy is a bad person. Love it or leave it !!
Us liberals love America in an adult way. We understand its not always pretty. But the good outweighs the bad and we can strive to improve.
It really comes down to that.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 28th, 2013
3:34 pm
Hot damn! A lb finally told the truth!
Too many people die of cancer or organ failures during the six month waiting period to get on Medicaid.
No kidding, how do you think medicaid for everyone is going to work out?
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 28th, 2013
3:35 pm
cheesy – No, it’s the crack babies in Chicago.
duh
Kyle Wingfield
February 28th, 2013
3:39 pm
JDW @ 3:23: Re: Infant mortality, the CDC explains:
“The primary reason for the United States’ higher infant mortality rate when compared with Europe is the United States’ much higher percentage of preterm births. In 2004, 1 in 8 infants born in the United States were born preterm, compared with 1 in 18 in Ireland and Finland. Preterm infants have much higher rates of death or disability than infants born at 37 weeks of gestation or more (2-4, 6), so the United States’ higher percentage of preterm births has a large effect on infant mortality rates. If the United States had the same gestational age distribution of births as Sweden, the U.S. infant mortality rate (excluding births at less than 22 weeks of gestation) would go from 5.8 to 3.9 infant deaths per 1,000 live births, a 33% decline. These data suggest that preterm birth prevention is crucial to lowering the U.S. infant mortality rate.”
And why do we have such a high rate of preterm babies? As this article in not-exactly-right-wing Slate explains:
“[M]odern medicine isn’t good at preventing prematurity—just the opposite. Better and more affordable medical care actually has worsened the rate of prematurity, and likely the rate of infant mortality, by making fertility treatment widespread.”
So, do you want to raise our infant mortality rate if it means making it harder to get fertility treatment? Look on the bright side, it’d probably bring down our spending on health care, too! We’d shoot way up in the statistics!
But would anyone think our health care system was actually better?
Cutty
February 28th, 2013
3:43 pm
You praised an ethics bill that hadn’t passed both houses and is bound to have loopholes, simply because the republicans did ’something’. Say what you want about Bookman, but at least he hits dems (Dekalb School Board) when its warranted. You wrote that softball piece about Chip Rogers getting a cush state job, knowing your take wouldve completely different had Rogers been a dem.
And you talk about someone attempting to impugn your integrity in a snarky way.
Kyle Wingfield
February 28th, 2013
3:44 pm
Cheesy: How you get from an incorrect prediction to “they love America like a two year old loves Mommy” might make sense to you, but it’s laughable guff to me.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
3:46 pm
“The primary reason for the United States’ higher infant mortality rate when compared with Europe is the United States’ much higher percentage of preterm births. In 2004, 1 in 8 infants born in the United States were born preterm, compared with 1 in 18 in Ireland and Finland. Preterm infants have much higher rates of death or disability than infants born at 37 weeks of gestation or more (2-4, 6), so the United States’ higher percentage of preterm births has a large effect on infant mortality rates. If the United States had the same gestational age distribution of births as Sweden, the U.S. infant mortality rate (excluding births at less than 22 weeks of gestation) would go from 5.8 to 3.9 infant deaths per 1,000 live births, a 33% decline. These data suggest that preterm birth prevention is crucial to lowering the U.S. infant mortality rate.”
This is spin of the first degree.
Sounds like rigged data to me.
Kyle Wingfield
February 28th, 2013
3:52 pm
Cutty: Go read the comments about that piece about Rogers. You’re in the minority if you thought I was going easy on him.
As for the ethics bill, as I’ve told others: The bill’s not perfect, but if I got as much of what I wanted in a tax-reform bill (or, on the federal level, entitlement reform), I’d be happy. I still hope to see the Senate improve it further.
Let’s face it: You’re never going to be happy as long as I don’t scream about Republicans from the top of my lungs, every day. Actually, I could have stopped that sentence at: “You’re never going to be happy.” I could write “Cutty is swell,” and you’d complain I didn’t call you “awesome.”
The irony is that you’re far more consistent about damning me than I am about praising Republicans. You just can’t see it.
Kyle Wingfield
February 28th, 2013
3:52 pm
Cheesy @ 3:46: So now the CDC is spinning to make the conservative case?
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
3:54 pm
Cheesy: How you get from an incorrect prediction to “they love America like a two year old loves Mommy” might make sense to you, but it’s laughable guff to me.
Maybe so. But I see it played out almost every day right here.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
3:58 pm
Cheesy @ 3:46: So now the CDC is spinning to make the conservative case?
So now the WHO is spinning to meet a liberal case ?
Cutty: Go read the comments about that piece about Rogers. You’re in the minority if you thought I was going easy on him.
Count me in the Minority
At age 44, Rogers is too young to write off as a potential comeback candidate one day. But for now, like that first GOP-led era, Rogers’ legacy will be a mixed bag: Some big early successes, followed by less accomplishment even as the GOP’s majorities grew larger, and more questions and infighting than answers toward the end.
That is tough stuff.
md
February 28th, 2013
3:58 pm
“They ALL have lower rates of heart disease. Diabetes. Infant Mortality rates are generally lower. ”
And if one doesn’t know why then one doesn’t want to know why……and it has nothing to do with healthcare.
Choices is a hint……
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
4:00 pm
And if one doesn’t know why then one doesn’t want to know why……and it has nothing to do with healthcare.
Choices is a hint……
Like 2 year old loves mommy category.
Numbers-R-US
February 28th, 2013
4:01 pm
And I just can’t wait to see Kyle’s more detailed analysis of all that is wrong with “The Economic Impact of Medicaid Expansion in Georgia,” by William S. Custer, Ph.D., and why we should accept his most thorough and scientific approach to pulling numbers out of one’s arse instead.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 28th, 2013
4:01 pm
No kidding, obozo just told all of America to do without 2% of it’s pay by stopping the medicare payroll tax holiday but when told when government has to do without 2% he acts like it’s a death sentence.
md
February 28th, 2013
4:05 pm
Infant mortality just by the numbers? Not a good comparison:
“No one denies the problem. Our infant mortality rate is double that of Japan or Sweden. But we live different lives, on average, than people in those places. We suffer more obesity (about 10 times as much as the Japanese), and we have more births to teenagers (seven times more than the Swedes). Nearly 40 percent of American babies are born to unwed mothers.
Factors like these are linked to low birth weight in babies, which is a dangerous thing. In a 2007 study for the National Bureau of Economic Research, economists June O’Neill and Dave O’Neill noted that “a multitude of behaviors unrelated to the health care system such as substance abuse, smoking and obesity” are connected “to the low birth weight and preterm births that underlie the infant death syndrome.”"
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
4:10 pm
No kidding, obozo just told all of America to do without 2% of it’s pay by stopping the medicare payroll tax holiday
Somebody has to pay for all those bombs dropped on Iraq.
They weren’t free.
Bush cut taxes during wartime, unprecedented in US History.
Worst President Ever.
md
February 28th, 2013
4:10 pm
“Like 2 year old loves mommy category.”
Typical, don’t debate the issue or supply counter information, just attack the person.
Not to worry Cheesy, I didn’t really expect anything more……
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
4:11 pm
Not to worry Cheesy, I didn’t really expect anything more……
Im not.
JDW
February 28th, 2013
4:12 pm
@Kyle…”If the United States had the same gestational age distribution of births as Sweden, the U.S. infant mortality rate (excluding births at less than 22 weeks of gestation) would go from 5.8 to 3.9 infant deaths per 1,000 live births, a 33% decline.”
Yahooooooo….that moves us from 29 to 23. How would you like to spin the rest or should we just declare that there must be other factors and we are “still #1″
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
4:13 pm
Seems to me Southern Conservative Governors are famous for their stands against the big bad federal government.
Oh yeah last one was when little black girls wanted to go to school.
Perish the thought lordy !!
JDW
February 28th, 2013
4:17 pm
@md…”In a 2007 study for the National Bureau of Economic Research, economists June O’Neill and Dave O’Neill noted that “a multitude of behaviors unrelated to the health care system such as substance abuse, smoking and obesity” are connected “to the low birth weight and preterm births that underlie the infant death syndrome.””
Now that is part of your problem, you think those factors are unrelated to the health care system when they are DIRECTLY related. A heath care system that is doing it’s job helps address those problems through access to care and education. Ours does not.
md
February 28th, 2013
4:25 pm
“Now that is part of your problem, you think those factors are unrelated to the health care system when they are DIRECTLY related. A heath care system that is doing it’s job helps address those problems through access to care and education. Ours does not.”
Sorry jdw, I don’t buy that uneducated mumbo jumbo…..we’ve been spending millions of dollars on smoking ads and folks still choose to smoke, and one has to be awful uninformed to not know that eating at Mickey D’s every day or living off twinkies is unhealthy and will make one fat……
I think you just like to make excuses for peoples choices……….
gerald eaton
February 28th, 2013
4:26 pm
the first step to reforming medicare would be repealing obamacare and replacing all the money they stole from medicare budget
md
February 28th, 2013
4:27 pm
Oh, I left out substance abuse……are you trying to say we have that many people in this country that have no clue that doing drugs can be bad for them?
Really?
JDW
February 28th, 2013
4:27 pm
@Cheesy…”It really comes down to that.”
I think you got them! The other problem that most Americans never set foot outside of the US and want to believe that things are just better here. By and large people that I know that travel or live abroad tend to be more liberal, Kyle being a notable exception.
independent thinker
February 28th, 2013
4:28 pm
We have two severely conservative presiden (Reagan and W.)t pass unfunded socialized health care plans (EMTALA and Medicare Part D) that forces the insured and private payers to pay as much as $1.49 for one tylenol pill and $5.00 for a gauze pad but the World Health Organization is biased when it says this unfunded covert socialism in our health care system is inefficient. And now we have a severely conservative journalist who claims WHO is biased because they favor socialized medicine. Is there something odd about this picture?
JDW
February 28th, 2013
4:30 pm
@md…”we’ve been spending millions of dollars on smoking ads and folks still choose to smoke”
Big difference between smoking ads and real live smoking cessation programs. Lets take the UK for example smoking cessation, substance abuse treatment and obesity treatment…covered…here not so much. Not to mention that annual checkup where the doc reads you the riot act.
It is about services not ads.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
4:35 pm
Oh, I left out substance abuse……are you trying to say we have that many people in this country that have no clue that doing drugs can be bad for them?
Are you saying other countries dont have a drug problem
Are you that naive?
fair and balanced
February 28th, 2013
4:38 pm
Kyle is right , the WHO report is biased – the US was actually no. 1 in one category of overallhealth care-cost. What does that have to do with mortality rates?
“”"”"”"”"”"”.WHO researchers looked at, according to the group itself, “overall level of population health; health inequalities (or disparities) within the population; overall level of health system responsiveness (a combination of patient satisfaction and how well the system acts); distribution of responsiveness within the population (how well people of varying economic status find that they are served by the health system); and the distribution of the health system’s financial burden within the population (who pays the costs).”
The U.S. did come in first place in the responsiveness category, but didn’t do as well in other categories, such as who pays the costs and level of health, which was based on disability-adjusted life expectancy. Bialik also notes that the U.S. ranked much higher – 15th on “overall goal attainment”– before WHO factored in health care spending per capita. As we’ve written before, the U.S. spends much more per capita than other nations; in fact, it captured the No. 1 spot from WHO in that category. This cost-conscious measure dropped the U.S. to 37th.”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/10/37th-in-health-performance/
Why be concerned about overall cost???- just borrow from the Chinese.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 28th, 2013
4:38 pm
Lets take the UK for example smoking cessation, substance abuse treatment and obesity treatment…covered…here not so much.
uh huh
More people in the UK died from alcohol-related deaths in 2010 than in 2009 with the figure rising by 126 to 8,790 from 8,664. However, this increase was limited to males with the number of deaths rising from 5,690 in 2009 to 5,865 in 2010.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right
February 28th, 2013
4:38 pm
Always nice to see JDW and Cheesy ignore the facts about the WHO ratings when presented to them.
So please, enlighten us how auto accident, suicides and murders are related to our health care system.
This should be hilarious.
And nice catch by Kyle on their bias towards government funding in their ratings.
There are lies, damned lies, and most anything a liberal posts.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
4:40 pm
I think you got them! The other problem that most Americans never set foot outside of the US and want to believe that things are just better here.
Exactly right and to take it a step further most of the yahoos here ill bet have never even left the South.
They dont understand its a big world out there and they live in a tiny bubble.
Of course Republicans exploit this readily.
Ive been to Canada. Ive been to England.
The people there aren’t Socialists or stupid.
They like universal healthcare and wouldn’t give it up for anything.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right
February 28th, 2013
4:41 pm
Oh, and do keep bringing up their rating system everytime this topic is discussed.
Makes you look all the more pathetic when you knowingly post false information.
JDW
February 28th, 2013
4:42 pm
@Aseop…”More people in the UK died from alcohol-related deaths in 2010 than in 2009 with the figure rising by 126 to 8,790 from 8,664. However, this increase was limited to males with the number of deaths rising from 5,690 in 2009 to 5,865 in 2010.”
UK Life Expectancy…80.05 years
US Life Expectancy…78.37
They still live longer, have lower infant mortality, aren’t as fat and have health care for all.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
4:43 pm
Always nice to see JDW and Cheesy ignore the facts about the WHO ratings when presented to them.
Its nice to see you too.
So gullible and easily led
Sad really.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right
February 28th, 2013
4:46 pm
Unfair and unbalanced, our cost is directly related to us paying our doctors like the supremely talented people they are, and not like government drones.
JDW
February 28th, 2013
4:47 pm
@Tiberius…”There are lies, damned lies, and most anything a liberal posts”
I see our resident self appointed Constitutional authority has crawled out. I am guessing that in Tiberiusville all those stats like life expectancy, infant mortality, cancer deaths just aren’t that important. Guess you missed that little bit. See those numbers they are called supporting evidence. Try it sometime and you might hold your own in a debate…as long as it doesn’t entail Constitutional Budget requirements.
wallbanger
February 28th, 2013
4:48 pm
What ticks me off about this, is that if you are on Medicaid you get free dental coverage. If you are paying your Medicare at about $224 a month, and your supplemental for another $250, you can’t get dental coverage. Why is that that indigents and illegals teeth get better treatment from our government than the teeth of the responsible?
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
4:51 pm
UK Life Expectancy…80.05 years
US Life Expectancy…78.37
They still live longer, have lower infant mortality, aren’t as fat and have health care for all.
They will never get that through their head.
They love America like 2 year old loves Mommy And we are saying something bad about Mommy ( America ) So we must be wrong
Guess what dummies. We aren’t the best at everything.
What do you really think the ENTIRE CIVILIZED WORLD that has universal healthcare.
They are all wrong and only America is right and NUMBER 1
This is what im talking about
Your wrong get over it.
They will gladly let Republicans protect tax loopholes for the rich so people like Romney pay 14 percent.
They will squeal with glee as the pentagon wastes 100 billion dollars on a jet nobody wants or a laser hovertank nobody needs.
But just try and help poor people get healthcare
The knives come out quick
Its sad.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 28th, 2013
4:52 pm
Over that time, average lifespan increased among all groups. In men, it rose from 75.3 years to 76.2 for whites and from 68.8 to 70.8 for blacks. The greater increase among black men meant that the gap shrank from a difference of 6.5 years of expected life to 5.4 years. The shift appears to be because fewer African Americans are dying of AIDS and heart disease.
Care to go any farther with this?
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
4:53 pm
Unfair and unbalanced, our cost is directly related to us paying our doctors like the supremely talented people they are, and not like government drones.
Two year old loves mommy
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right
February 28th, 2013
4:53 pm
As usual, JDW guesses wrong.
Par for the course.
But ignoring of the flaw in their rating, especially after it was pointed out for the hundredths time, shows an all too typical lack of intelligence on the part of these liberals.
JDW
February 28th, 2013
4:53 pm
@Tiberius…”our cost is directly related to us paying our doctors like the supremely talented people they are, and not like government drones.”
O’ Dear…always looking out for that 1% aren’t you.
“No other developed country pays doctors this much. In 2004, general practitioners in the U.S. were estimated to earn double — measured by purchasing power — the median for 21 nations in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development; for specialists, the difference was almost threefold….What explains the higher pay in the U.S.? Muscular lobbying may help. Over the past 15 years, the American Medical Association has spent $278 million lobbying the federal government — more than any other group save the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and General Electric Co. That puts doctors ahead of the largest oil and defense companies in spending to influence policy makers. ”
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-12/to-cut-health-care-costs-pay-doctors-less.html
Maybe a little free market reality would help them out….of course doctor payments only represent 1/5 of medical spending. We could pay them ZERO and would still spend the most in the world for the same substandard results.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 28th, 2013
4:55 pm
Any idiot can compare immigration rates to the US versus other countries to see where it is really a better place to live, well, make that “most” idiots.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right
February 28th, 2013
4:57 pm
Thanks for proving my point, JDW.
We do pay our doctors more.
And lobbying doesn’t provide for pay rates, Sonny.
JDW
February 28th, 2013
4:59 pm
@Aseop….”Care to go any farther with this?”
Take as much rope as you want…the US ranks at the bottom of the developed world in life expectancy and it’s not because they don’t have black people.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right
February 28th, 2013
5:00 pm
The only time government sets pay rates is for government programs.
NOT private practice rates. which make up the majority of Heath care dollars here.
Nice try at the lie, JDW.
JDW
February 28th, 2013
5:01 pm
@Tiberius…”We do pay our doctors more.”
Not proving your point at all…you want to pay them more…I don’t. On top of that you would have us believe that “our cost is directly related to us paying our doctors ” when we could pay them ZERO and still rank #1 in spending.
It is an issue that should be addressed not the cause of our over spending.
JDW
February 28th, 2013
5:05 pm
@Tiberius…”NOT private practice rates. which make up the majority of Heath care dollars here.”
Now whom do you suppose sets those rates…the valiant independent doctor fiercely competing in the market for business and watching our for the little guy…NAHHHHHHHHH it is the insurance companies and you can bet the amount expended by the American Medical Association to influence those rates is WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY more than what they spend on government lobbying.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right
February 28th, 2013
5:06 pm
Continuing to quote life expectancy ratings in a discussion about health care, when the numbers have been proven to be skewed by non health care related deaths, shows a disconnect from reality and a penchant for lying.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right
February 28th, 2013
5:09 pm
So now you’re admitting you were wrong on your government lobbying accusation?
Light dawns on marble head, as we say up in Massachusetts.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right
February 28th, 2013
5:12 pm
Moving the goal posts was always a specialty of JDW’s but he’s turned it into an art form on today’s blog.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 28th, 2013
5:12 pm
Really?
Britian – Black or Black British: African 977,741 1.8%
France – 10% (jihad)
Canada – None
Care to go any farther with this?
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
5:13 pm
Doctors in countries with Universal healthcare do just fine.
So that theory is out the window too.
Bottom line out healthcare system sucks.
We spend twice as much for lesser results
Bravo to Obama for finally standing up and making a change.
Obamacare is here to stay so we are really arguing over whether we like it or not.
Not whether it will become law.
IT ALREADY IS THE LAW !!!!
indigo
February 28th, 2013
5:15 pm
Chessy – 3:18
We have a socialized Military. For some reason, the cons not only don’t mind this, they won’t even talk about it here.
But mention “socialized medicine” and you are in the “tool from the pits of hell” category.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
5:16 pm
Britian – Black or Black British: African 977,741 1.8%
France – 10% (jihad)
Canada – None
Care to go any farther with this?
LOL. 2 year old loves mommy.
I guess theses idiots think those countries dont have minorities
What they are really saying is if America was just all white…..
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right
February 28th, 2013
5:17 pm
A typical conversation with JDW:
Conservative : “Dispute A”
JDW: “B”
Conservative : “Please dispute A”
JDW: “B”
Conservative : “Please stay on topic”
JDW: “C”
Repeat ad nauseum.
JDW
February 28th, 2013
5:18 pm
@Tiberius….
“Continuing to quote life expectancy ratings in a discussion about health care, when the numbers have been proven to be skewed by non health care related deaths, shows a disconnect from reality and a penchant for lying.”
You have not proven squat all you are doing is babbling. EVERY country includes EXACTLY the same componets.
“So now you’re admitting you were wrong on your government lobbying accusation? ”
Nope…you make an unsubstantiated claim that we pay our doctors better and that’s why our health costs are higher. Not true…we do pay them better but that is only a part of the problem. As an aside doctors spend a HUGE amount of money lobbying the government and insurance companies to protect those rates.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
5:20 pm
But mention “socialized medicine” and you are in the “tool from the pits of hell” category.
They really dont mind socialized medicine either I dont think
As long as its just the kind we have right now.
What they dont like is poor people and minorities will benefit from Obamacare. ( and by extension we all win )
See its ok for some to get government healthcare. Just not others.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right
February 28th, 2013
5:20 pm
Socialized military?
Only a sick penchant for seeing Indigo make a fool of himself once again causes me to ask him to explain that nonsense.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 28th, 2013
5:20 pm
No, what we are actually saying is that blacks die at a disproportionate rate to whites, mostly because of the living conditions the democrats have forced them into. Normal people would be ashamed with themselves but not a lib, they use the statistics that they created to hate on the United States, mostly so they can kill the rest of us.
You’re sick in the head, bottom line.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 28th, 2013
5:23 pm
Not to mention that the vast majority of blacks in the United States receive government provided health care and die sooner than anybody else.
Sick in the head, bottom line.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
5:23 pm
No, what we are actually saying is that blacks die at a disproportionate rate to whites, mostly because of the living conditions the democrats have forced them into
LMAO HA !!!!
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
5:24 pm
No, what we are actually saying is that blacks die at a disproportionate rate to whites, mostly because of the living conditions the democrats have forced them into. Normal people would be ashamed with themselves but not a lib, they use the statistics that they created to hate on the United States, mostly so they can kill the rest of us.
You’re sick in the head, bottom line.
Your lack of education and intelligence is showing.
Your a bigot. You just hide it marginally well.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 28th, 2013
5:27 pm
A bigot would warehouse blacks and give them government provided health care, so that when they die sooner, the bigot could come to a blog and petition for larger government.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 28th, 2013
5:29 pm
“when we could pay them ZERO and still rank #1 in spending.”
Dumbest post of the day – bar none.
Thanks for the laugh, JDW.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
5:29 pm
A bigot would warehouse blacks and give them government provided health care, so that when they die sooner, the bigot could come to a blog and petition for larger government.
See what I mean
This is how these yahoo’s actually think.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 28th, 2013
5:31 pm
This country is moving to the left and getting more liberal everyday.
Soon gay marriage will be legal ( perish the thought )
Most Republicans are old and getting older . The Fox News silver hairs.
The writing is on the wall.
Its over for you guys.
Forward !!!!
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 28th, 2013
5:32 pm
“EVERY country includes EXACTLY the same componets.”
Obviously someone doesn’t know the difference between the freedoms afforded us and all those other countries (even if those freedoms are eroding every day under President Incompetent), and how those freedoms will still skew the numbers in non health care related life expectancy numbers.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 28th, 2013
5:36 pm
PRINCETON, NJ — Americans are more than twice as likely to identify themselves as conservative rather than liberal on economic issues, 46% to 20%. The gap is narrower on social issues, but conservatives still outnumber liberals, 38% to 28%. -2012
md
February 28th, 2013
5:38 pm
“It is about services not ads.”
No, it is about choices.
And we do have smoking cessation programs here in the US, and the last stats I looked at had a very small success rate of under 20%……that means 80% are still CHOOSING to smoke.
As I said, most folks that believe in the collective tend to overlook the power of choice, it allows them the necessary emotions to take care of others.
We choose everything we do jdw.
indigo
February 28th, 2013
5:40 pm
Tiberius – 5:20
Our Government is in complete charge of our Military.
Did you not know this?
And, if our Government was in complete charge of our healthcare system, you would be howling “socialized medicine”.
Politico
February 28th, 2013
5:41 pm
“As I said, most folks that believe in the collective tend to overlook the power of choice, ”
And that explains why many conservatives no different than liberals or whomever still smoke, drink to excess, do drugs, eat fast food to excess, etc?
Got ya…..
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 28th, 2013
5:42 pm
md, I’m going to disagree with you a bit on your last comment.
While we might choose to smoke or not to smoke, once many people smoke, the choice to quit is very difficult due to the makeup of the tobacco.
That particular game is rigged.
Politico
February 28th, 2013
5:44 pm
md
When you can show an unbiased study that shows any different than your Home Depot power painter broad brushed comment about the “collective” might have some merit………
Until that time it is nothing but your own bias and ideology that drove that comment, facts be damned in regards to that ‘collective’ bs.
But do carry on. You are a funny dude sometimes
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 28th, 2013
5:45 pm
Indigo, our government is MANDATED to have a military through our Constitution.
NOT health care.
And while the term ’socialized” is bandied about rather haphazardly by many on this blog, it usually refers to the Socialist model of “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need”.
Nothing in the above statement applies to our military, which you’d know if you had actually served in it.
md
February 28th, 2013
5:47 pm
“Obamacare is here to stay so we are really arguing over whether we like it or not. ”
Actually, the debate is about freedom of choice and affordability…..having an entitlement and being able to afford it are two totally different concepts. What do you think all the fuss in the EU is about?
“Most Republicans are old and getting older .”
Evolution tends to work that way…..I too was once a hand extended card carrying democrat. I had next to nothing and saw the rich as the ticket out……let them pay for it.
I don’t see the cycle ending anytime soon……
And Cheesy, Canada and England are but 2 in a very large world, hardly makes one an expert traveler. I’ve been to more countries than I care to count but I understand there is still a lot to see and learn……
And no, I haven’t found one yet that I would move to long term…….
md
February 28th, 2013
5:50 pm
“And that explains why many conservatives no different than liberals or whomever still smoke, drink to excess, do drugs, eat fast food to excess, etc? ”
Yes, and the difference being they hold up their hand and say they did it…….and don’t expect the neighbors to buy their condoms and birth control when they CHOOSE to have recreational sex.
md
February 28th, 2013
5:51 pm
“While we might choose to smoke or not to smoke, once many people smoke, the choice to quit is very difficult due to the makeup of the tobacco.”
Yes, but it was ourselves that put us into that position, it wasn’t done to us.
Politico
February 28th, 2013
5:53 pm
“Yes, and the difference being they hold up their hand and say they did it…….and don’t expect the neighbors to buy their condoms and birth control when they CHOOSE to have recreational sex. – ”
1. You moved the whole stadium. You said to heck with the goal post. Who was talking about condoms and birth control?
2. You made a broad brushed statement that you can’t back up with anything more than more commentary which will include hyperbole and your own bias……….
No study to back up your 5:38. But even you knew that when you posted your opinion as fact, but nice try.
md
February 28th, 2013
5:54 pm
“Until that time it is nothing but your own bias and ideology that drove that comment”
Of course it is, it’s called an opinion. Which is what drives these blogs. It comes from years of living in the fish bowl and experiencing life.
And coming to the realization that we choose everything we do. When you figure that out politico it makes it much harder to make excuses…….
Hillbilly D
February 28th, 2013
5:55 pm
Yes, but it was ourselves that put us into that position, it wasn’t done to us.
True now but maybe not for the WWII generation. They passed out cigarettes to those guys like they were candy, building a base of future customers.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 28th, 2013
5:56 pm
Politico, you may not limit md’s discussion to what you wish to discuss simply because you’re incapable of supporting your position.
You’re just not all that, son.
md
February 28th, 2013
5:56 pm
politico, I hear hedge fund managers make billions of dollars, are you a hedge fund manager?
Politico
February 28th, 2013
5:58 pm
md
I’m sure you know this, but you believing something about any given issue, in itself doesn’t make it fact. It might be factual, but just because you say it or experienced something doesn’t make it true because you like painting with a broad brush. It might be true for you and you are welcome to believe what you wish, but your opinion in itself is not fact.
Sorry buddy.
MarkV
February 28th, 2013
5:59 pm
“And while the term ’socialized” is bandied about rather haphazardly by many on this blog, it usually refers to the Socialist model of “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need” (Tiberius @ 5:45)
Can’t these guys get anything right?
Politico
February 28th, 2013
6:00 pm
Politico
I addressed what he said. md changed it to something else. If you don’t like it too bad.
You are welcome to be his daddy and speak for him, but you do not speak for me.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 28th, 2013
6:01 pm
“Can’t these guys get anything right?”
MarkV is now addressing himself?
Too weird. Even for him.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 28th, 2013
6:03 pm
“You are welcome to be his daddy and speak for him, but you do not speak for me.”
You’re right, Politico. I can’t dumb myself down to your level, no matter how hard I might try.
Politico
February 28th, 2013
6:03 pm
Tiberius
That 6:00 was for you. No need to respond with your typical yapping but of course you are welcome to do since you are self appointed blog sheriff and welcoming committee.
Politico
February 28th, 2013
6:04 pm
“You’re right, Politico. I can’t dumb myself down to your level, no matter how hard I might try. ”
Preach if from your step stool Tibs, preach it little fella
Just don’t get so excited you fall off…………… again
MarkV
February 28th, 2013
6:05 pm
Can’t Tiberius google something like the socialist motto to get the right one?
md
February 28th, 2013
6:06 pm
“True now but maybe not for the WWII generation. They passed out cigarettes to those guys like they were candy, building a base of future customers.”
Yes they did HD, but they didn’t force a single one of them to use them….did they?
Politico
February 28th, 2013
6:07 pm
Tiberius
Say something about being “colored shocked”, “pourtage” and “accepting surrender” and you will have been as original as you usually are………
And again, don’t get wailing and flailing so much you fall from your step stool……..
toodles little guy
md
February 28th, 2013
6:08 pm
“No study to back up your 5:38. But even you knew that when you posted your opinion as fact, but nice try. ”
I posted my opinion as my opinion……based on my observations.
Isn’t that what opinion is?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 28th, 2013
6:14 pm
“Can’t Tiberius google something like the socialist motto to get the right one?”
Can’t MarkV realize that the founding father of Socialism, Karl Marx, summed up his creation in those very words I quoted?
Of course, with MarkV, it isn’t about the facts but the wordsmithing of the argument.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 28th, 2013
6:15 pm
And my leg-humper exits the field with his tail between his legs.
If only Politico would stay away, this blog would instantly raise it’s IQ another 50 points.
Politico
February 28th, 2013
6:19 pm
Awww
Little Tiberius humped my leg when I was directing a post to md and now he is attempting to change it around
bless his short self and heart…….. little guy is as lonely as he can be
MarkV
February 28th, 2013
6:20 pm
If Tiberius want to maintain his ignorance, it is a free country even for that..
Politico
February 28th, 2013
6:21 pm
Kyle
Let your self appointed blog sheriff and welcoming committee spokesman (Tiberius) now that unless you have an issue with my postings, I will not be going anywhere.
He can cry and email you all he likes.. Maybe threaten to sue, but it wont change anything.
Maybe give him some attention so he thinks he is your star pet. That makes him happy.
Good night
JDW
February 28th, 2013
6:24 pm
@Aesop…”No, what we are actually saying is that blacks die at a disproportionate rate to whites, mostly because of the living conditions the democrats have forced them into. Normal people would be ashamed with themselves but not a lib, they use the statistics that they created to hate on the United States, mostly so they can kill the rest of us.”
You know when I was a kid your fables were so much better…this drivel is just mean.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 28th, 2013
6:28 pm
If MarkV refuses to debate an alternative view, well, it’s a free country for him to remain ignorant of the facts.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 28th, 2013
6:29 pm
You always know when Politico has lost his argument.
Simply read his last three or four posts to me.
Catches him with his pants down every time (and believe me, that’s not a visual I want to have in my brain).
JDW
February 28th, 2013
6:32 pm
@Tiberius…”“when we could pay them ZERO and still rank #1 in spending. Dumbest post of the day – bar none. Thanks for the laugh, JDW.”
Still math challenged I see. It works like this… according to the OECD, you know that link I gave you earlier that you obviously distaining viewing ’cause as well all know YOU KNOW EVERYTHING
we spend $8233 per year per person. Doctors account for about 1/5 or $1646 of that total…if we paid them ZERO our costs would STILL BE $6586 per person which is more than the number two nation on the hit parade Norway at $5388 per person.
Keep laughing…though it is a bit sad.
JDW
February 28th, 2013
6:35 pm
@Tiberius…”Obviously someone doesn’t know the difference between the freedoms afforded us and all those other countries”
O’ JEEEEESSSSSH our freedoms are killing us faster than everyone else
…only guns dufus and if you took em all out it doesn’t impact overall expectancy that much…just ruins lots of lives needlessly.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 28th, 2013
6:36 pm
jdw – Obviously you don’t have a reasoned rebuttal to what I say so the inbred “if I babble it then it must be true” syndrome was all you had to suffice.
JDW
February 28th, 2013
6:37 pm
@md…”We choose everything we do jdw.”
You got it…in this country we choose not to provide health care and it hurts lots of folks…kind of nasty don’t you think?
JDW
February 28th, 2013
6:39 pm
@Aesop…”Obviously you don’t have a reasoned rebuttal to what I say so the inbred “if I babble it then it must be true” syndrome was all you had to suffice”
There is no reasoned rebuttal to pure trash…all you can do is kick it to the curb
indigo
February 28th, 2013
6:39 pm
Tiberius – 5:45
Read my post again.
I said the Govt. is in complete charge of our Military.
Also, I said, and still say, that if our healthcare system was run, by the Govt. the same way they run the military, you and the cons here would be yelling “socialized medicine”.
You can’t have it both ways.
If the Govt. running of our Military does not meet the strict “socialist” definition, then that same kind of healthcare managing cannot be called “socialized medicine”.
And, I DID serve in the Military, US Navy, something I seriously doubt you’ll ever do.
MarkV
February 28th, 2013
6:39 pm
Since Tiberius is too lazy to get the correct information:
Karl Marx was not “father of Socialism.” The idea of socialism, and that term, existed long before Karl Marx.
“From each according to his ability, to each according to his need” is not the motto of Socialism; it is the motto of Communism. The motto of Socialism is “From each according to his ability, to each according to his contribution.”
JDW
February 28th, 2013
6:41 pm
@MarkV…”Can’t Tiberius google something like the socialist motto to get the right one?”
Why would Tiberius Google…he already knows everything…
MarkV
February 28th, 2013
6:41 pm
For those few who care about what they write:
“Socialized” does not mean “Socialistic.” It simply means that the subject, whatever it is, is spread over the whole society. For instance in the expression “Socialized Risks, Private Rewards” not even the most ardent socialism-fighter can find anything about Socialism.
True “socialized medicine” means that the society, through the government, PROVIDES health care, i.e., providers are state employees. “Universal Health Care” may but does not have to mean “socialized medicine.” It is quite often used for systems where only the insurance costs are “socialized,” as in the tax-based “single payer” systems or “Medicare for all,” or in any private insurance systems with compulsory insurance.
Politico
February 28th, 2013
6:45 pm
Speaking of losing arguments, I never demanded or suggested anyone leave the blog, threaten to sue the AJC, wrote emails crying like a baby…………
But we all know who has done that……..
don’t fall little guy
indigo
February 28th, 2013
6:46 pm
MarkV – 6:39
Tiberius knows all, sees all and is never wrong.
If you doubt this, why, just ask him.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 28th, 2013
6:51 pm
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it’s a duck.
Can I get a duh?
Michael H. Smith
February 28th, 2013
6:52 pm
We [Cons] have been yelling socialism and socialized medicine long before obumercare was past. You need to study history instead of trying to rewrite it with your half baked phony rhetoric.
Quotes by Roosevelt
I pledge you, I pledge myself, to a new deal for the American people. Franklin D. Roosevelt, accepting the Democratic nomination for President – July 2, 1932.
[Some People]…will try to give you new and strange names for what we are doing. Sometimes they will call it ‘Fascism,’ sometimes ‘Communism,’ sometimes ‘Regimentation,’ sometimes ‘Socialism.’ But, in so doing, they are trying to make very complex and theoretical something that is really very simple and very practical…. Plausible self-seekers and theoretical die-hards will tell you of the loss of individual liberty. Answer this question out of the facts of your own life. Have you lost any of your rights or liberty or constitutional freedom of action and choice?
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/New_Deal
And, yes Franklin we lost a great number of rights liberties and freedom of action and choice!
Politico
February 28th, 2013
6:54 pm
Tiberius
Get you last word in so you can feel good about yourself.
Don’t be so lonely and catch you next time little fella
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 28th, 2013
6:54 pm
Will Rogers said, “Be thankful we’re not getting all the government we’re paying for.” Today we are not paying for all the government we are getting, and the political class benefiting from this practice should be thankful for the Fed’s low interest rate policy, which makes running deficits inexpensive. In addition to making big government cheap, this causes a flight of investors from interest-paying assets into equities — the rising stock market primarily benefits the wealthy — and commodities, rather than job-creating investments.
Any idiot can understand this, er, I mean, “most” idiots. But not our idiot president.
md
February 28th, 2013
6:56 pm
“You got it…in this country we choose not to provide health care and it hurts lots of folks…kind of nasty don’t you think? ”
No, because when we choose everything we do, many are where they are because of those choices. And it isn’t up to others to make up the difference just because.
I say make health insurance just like car insurance and those that want to participate will make the necessary choices to do so…….and the hospitals are always there as a last reort by law.
Why do you have the right jdw to dictate what others should earn because of your perceived right?
What do you do for a living? Should others demand of you that you get paid a max amount because they feel they have a right to your goods or services?
Last I checked, a right can not exist if one has to infringe on another to provide that right…..
Michael H. Smith
February 28th, 2013
6:57 pm
Anyhow Kyle, the socialist have nothing less than a single payer healthcare system.
Which as we know is everything but, “really very simple and very practical” in FDR speak.
JDW
February 28th, 2013
7:03 pm
@md…I say make health insurance just like car insurance and those that want to participate will make the necessary choices to do so
Did you know that if you drive you must have car insurance? The equitable solution is that if you breathe you should have health insurance…I think we passed a law about that.
md
February 28th, 2013
7:10 pm
“Did you know that if you drive you must have car insurance? The equitable solution is that if you breathe you should have health insurance…I think we passed a law about that.”
As I said, if one chooses to participate (electing to drive) then one may make the choices to buy the insurance, and one that chooses to participate in hc may buy the insurance……otherwise, one may walk or take the bus and one may choose to go to the hospital for care.
It gets back down to wants vs needs….that carton of cigarettes or heath insurance.
And I’m on record for providing a safety net, so these folks that choose to remain poor by not making the necessary choices to better themselves are extended a helping hand, but if they choose to not move forward then it isn’t up to others to fix that.
Just like the homeless guy in NY that was given a pair of boots, he said it was his choice to live on the street although his family always has the door open.
Choices jdw…..choices.
Michael H. Smith
February 28th, 2013
7:12 pm
obumercare was found constitutional based on the ability of Congress to tax not on the equitable solution is that if you breathe you should have health insurance.
Michael H. Smith
February 28th, 2013
7:16 pm
Goodnight to all.
Stephenson Billings
February 28th, 2013
7:41 pm
Shortage of family doctors leaves health care in crisis
The NHS is facing a chronic shortage of family doctors after official figures showed some GPs were responsible for 9,000 patients.
“More than a million people were registered with a GP who served more than 3,000 patients, almost twice the average list size of 1,600.
Experts warned that doctors with vast numbers of patients might not be providing the best service, with their practices seeing poorer care and longer waiting times.
The figures show the worst surgeries for securing a doctor’s appointment within two days have 50 per cent more patients per GP than the average practice.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8978509/Shortage-of-family-doctors-leaves-health-care-in-crisis.html
Stephenson Billings
February 28th, 2013
7:44 pm
Patients’ lives at risk in NHS hospital wards ‘on brink of collapse’
Patients’ lives are at risk in NHS hospital wards that are “on the brink of collapse” due to a critical shortage of out-of-hours doctors and growing numbers of the elderly.
“Some hospitals narrowly avoid “catastrophe” every weekend, research by the Royal College of Physicians has found, because doctors’ shifts are limited by the European Working Time Directive and they do not want to work anti-social hours.
Some are “struggling to cope” with the volume of older patients. Many are discharged in the middle of the night or shunted around “like parcels” to free beds for new arrivals.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9539872/Patients-lives-at-risk-in-NHS-hospital-wards-on-brink-of-collapse.html
Stephenson Billings
February 28th, 2013
7:47 pm
NHS boss ’steps aside’ over fears high death rates were masked
The head of an NHS trust has “stepped aside” amid fears that staff tried to mask high mortality rates by recording the wrong cause of death for patients.
“In 2011, Bolton NHS Foundation Trust recorded a large spike in septicaemia deaths – which are not included in official mortality figures – at the Royal Bolton Hospital in Greater Manchester.
During the same year, it also recorded a significant improvement in death rates and was given an award for the “most improved” trust.
But a recent audit demanded by local doctors has unearthed evidence that these improvements may have been fictional.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/put-patients-first/9898427/NHS-boss-steps-aside-over-fears-high-death-rates-were-masked.html
Stephenson Billings
February 28th, 2013
7:49 pm
Road crash victims face rehab ‘lottery’
Road crash victims face a ‘postcode lottery’ when it comes to rehabilitation, that is hampering their recovery and costing the NHS £120 million a year, claims a report.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9895110/Road-crash-victims-face-rehab-lottery.html
Stephenson Billings
February 28th, 2013
7:55 pm
Rising health demands to cost £34bn more
“Britain’s ageing population, salary pressures and drug price rises could cost the NHS a further £34bn by the start of the next decade, according to a major new study of the health service.
This report from the Nuffield Trust sets out the political predicament that the next government will face. It will struggle to avoid cuts to the NHS, which now costs £106bn, if it is still fighting to cut the fiscal deficit in the next parliament.”
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/f8145e84-3cae-11e2-a6b2-00144feabdc0.html
Stephenson Billings
February 28th, 2013
8:00 pm
Canada’s doctor shortage will only worsen in the coming decade
“When stacked up against countries with similar health care goals, namely universal coverage, it quickly becomes apparent that Canada’s health care system is not worth emulating. While we’re a top spender, we have among the longest waiting lists, low levels of medical technologies and perhaps the problem that hits closest to home, a short supply of doctors.
If you think it’s bad now, just wait. Over the next decade, the physician shortage will become more severe. Even if government imposed restrictions on the number of doctors being trained in Canada are immediately removed, it won’t have an impact for much of the next decade given the time it takes to train a new doctor. The only short-term solution is to recruit more foreign-trained doctors.”
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/publicationdisplay.aspx?id=17360
Stephenson Billings
February 28th, 2013
8:05 pm
Report: Canadian health care spending unsustainable
“Single-payer Health Care, once lauded by President Barack Obama for its ability to keep health care expenditures down by rationing care, has become prohibitively expensive and inefficient in Canada, according to a new study.
A 2011 report by the Fraser Institute concluded that Canada’s health care system is spending at an unsustainable rate. Six of ten Canadian provinces are on track to spend half of their revenues on health care, according to the institute.
“We conclude that Canada’s health system produces rates of growth in health spending that are not sustainable solely through redistributive public financing,” the report concluded.
In 2011, health care spending consumed 50 percent of revenues in Canada’s two largest provinces, Ontario and Quebec.
By 2017, four more provinces — Saskatchewan, Alberta, British Columbia and New Brunswick — will spend half of their revenues on health care, according to the institute.
Total federal, provincial and territorial government health spending has grown by 8.1 percent annually, while the national GDP in Canada rose by only 6.7 percent during the same period.
In response to the rapidly rising costs, provincial governments have raised taxes and rationed care, increasing patient wait times. Provincial drug plans have also more often refused to pay for most of the drugs that are certified as “safe and effective” by Health Canada.”
http://dailycaller.com/2012/07/24/report-canadian-health-care-spending-unsustainable/
Stephenson Billings
February 28th, 2013
8:10 pm
Health-care costs could downgrade Canada’s credit
“Standard & Poor’s is warning that Canada and other G20 countries could face credit downgrades if they don’t control expected increases in health-care costs as the average age of their population rises.
The ratings agency, in a report issued Thursday, says governments in advanced economies have missed the importance of health-care cost increases linked to aging populations.”
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2012/01/31/standard-poors-health-care-costs.html
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 28th, 2013
8:25 pm
Losers (and sore ones at that) like JDW, Politico and MarkV just can’t seem to hack the logical arguments presented on this blog.
Politico attacks the posters, but contributes nothing else. And repeats the same things more often than AmVet ever did. Too bad Politico won’t take the same path and self banish himself.
JDW keeps moving goal posts so frequently that he can’t even see the stadium any longer, and only tells the side of the argument he agrees with – never the whole story.
And what to say about MarkV that hasn’t already been said? If it’s not worded precisely in his personal dictionary, it can’t possibly be true. And when caught in his falsehoods, he constantly complains that “he never said that” (simply because someone didn’t quote him EXACTLY).
All-in-all, a fools gallery the liberal establishment can be proud of.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 28th, 2013
8:30 pm
And Indigo, your fractured “logic” of a socialized military proves you didn’t learn anything about the military if you actually did serve, which I doubt.
Of course, you could be one of those rare few who served and turned against the very Constitution you swore to defend, simply because you never read or understood the words of that document in the first place. Oaths don’t mean much to people who are liberal.
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
February 28th, 2013
8:34 pm
And there are those who think our heart disease and obesity rates would decline, if everyone had the ability to see a Doc in the box for 10 minutes once a year, for free. I’ll bet a double cheese whooper, that it will not make one bit of difference.
Those same folks believed that Obama was going to cut the deficit in half in his first term, not sign a bill that added one dime to the deficit, close Gitmo, have the most transparent administration ever, not allow lobbyist in his administration, and be a healer that worked across the aisle.
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
February 28th, 2013
8:35 pm
whopper not whooper— boy that makes me hungry!
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
February 28th, 2013
8:38 pm
Indigo says a socialized military is working just fine and so would socialized medicine. Wrong analogy, Indie, we already have socialized medicine and it is not working fine, i.e. The Veterans Administration. I’m afraid that any socialized medicine we get from the Dems would more closely resemble the VA than the military.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
February 28th, 2013
8:38 pm
Four years of Obozo, and ain’t nothing been fixed.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 28th, 2013
8:42 pm
Rafe, like everything in life, VA medicine has its good and bad points. There are some holes in the system (mental health services in particular), and there are some pretty bad hospitals in certain areas of the country, but there are also some very good ones as well.
They could always do better, but they sure could do worse.
JDW
February 28th, 2013
8:52 pm
@Tiberius…8:25 may be the perfect Tiberius post…
It has ZERO substance…not a fact, not a link, not a hypothesis, not an argument. There is no position and nothing with which to debate.
It does have insults…
“Losers (and sore ones at that) like JDW, Politico and MarkV just can’t seem to hack the logical arguments presented on this blog.”
“Politico attacks the posters, but contributes nothing else.”
“And what to say about MarkV that hasn’t already been said ”
“All-in-all, a fools gallery the liberal establishment can be proud of.”
Then he follows with this bit of drivel at 8:30 (guess it took 5 minutes to come up with it)
“Of course, you could be one of those rare few who served and turned against the very Constitution you swore to defend, simply because you never read or understood the words of that document in the first place. Oaths don’t mean much to people who are liberal”
More pontificating from our self appointed “Constitutional Authority”…speaking of which never did hear back from you on those Constitutional budget requirements you spouted off on the other day…where were those again?
JDW
February 28th, 2013
8:56 pm
You know Tiberius, I have found the perfect political party for you…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullifier_Party
You are the perfect person to carry that banner…most everything you say seems to follow the vein of selective adherence…it is perfect for you.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
February 28th, 2013
8:57 pm
Obozo got everything he wanted in the grand bargain with Our Speaker Boehner, and then he moved the goalposts and walked away from the deal. Just like Yasser Arafat did in the negotiations brokered by Clintax back in the nineties.
Arafat and Obozo: America-hating Muslim terrorists.
Bruno
February 28th, 2013
9:17 pm
At first, they note, Washington will pick up the tab. Only after three years will the feds begin reducing their share of the expansion, to 90 percent by 2020. How long that rate sticks, I note, will depend on the generosity — or profligacy — of future Congresses.
I’m not sure why this shell game of shuffling money around is generating so much excitement here among the Libs. It’s this simple: our health care delivery system is too expensive. With more than 50% of our health care dollars wasted, the focus should be on reining in costs, not on pretending that monies coming from the federal government are somehow different from state monies. It all comes from the pockets of the taxpayers (us).
Dusty
February 28th, 2013
9:21 pm
Well, Stephenson Billings has given us some good info on the healthcare in Canada. The results there are exactly what would be expected by anyone with the slightest inkling about the providers and the costs.
But healthcare in America as an issue was pushed more for the votes than for the health of citizens. ObamaCare’s 900 pages was thrown together for those who think government is there to supply everything from birth to death. The naive only think of what they will get, not what it will cost. So they vote for whomever will give them more.. Now the ugly figures of cost rise up like ghosts in the graveyard and they won’t go away.
The rude, the ugly and the uninformed are the first to demand what they see as their share. Unfortunately, it spreads over this blog like a London fog, a blight that touches everything they post. It is a liberal exhibition of nihilism in hopes of ruining anything conservative.
I only wish the best for Kyle. He stay honorable above it all and that we can appreciate..
Dusty
February 28th, 2013
9:32 pm
Shhh BRUNO
Don’t mention that federal money and state money come from the taxpayers pockets!!!
Everybody knows it comes from the money tree!!.
Bruno
February 28th, 2013
9:32 pm
The rude, the ugly and the uninformed are the first to demand what they see as their share. Unfortunately, it spreads over this blog like a London fog, a blight that touches everything they post. It is a liberal exhibition of nihilism in hopes of ruining anything conservative.
Dusty–I think the reality is that liberals start from a very different set of assumptions about people and life than conservatives do. One common assumption liberals seem to make is that people are basically incompetent and incapable of self-control, such that we shouldn’t hold them responsible for any bad habits they may pick up along the way. JDW advanced a theory along those lines earlier today when he attempted to shift responsibility for good health choices from the individual to our health care system. We’re just not offering enough “free” services, and doctors just aren’t hounding their patients enough. As one who has worked in health care for nearly 27 years, I can assure JDW that doctor input has minimal impact on patient’s choices.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
February 28th, 2013
9:34 pm
Health care is just another example of something ruined by a bunch of parasites looking for someone else to pay their bills for them. Higher education is another prime example.
Pay your bills, losers.
Bruno
February 28th, 2013
9:39 pm
Shhh BRUNO
Don’t mention that federal money and state money come from the taxpayers pockets!!!
Admittedly, it’s a clever sort of shell game, Dusty, that the Dems are pulling off. The states that don’t go along with their plan are forced to subsidize the ones who do, thereby guaranteeing that everyone will have to join in eventually. For concocting schemes like this, Obama is a hero to these Libs. Yet they can’t figure out why those who have just been strong-armed can’t stand him–or them.
Bruno
February 28th, 2013
9:42 pm
My favorite album growing up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SqFPNTBnv8
Dusty
February 28th, 2013
9:51 pm
BRUNO, Since i have been around good doctors most of my life, I do listen to what they tell me. BUT, as md says here frequently, eveyone makes their own choices. I guess you see that too and it must be frustrating when patients come and then don’t listen..
JDW is just a hand holding liberal so healthcare should support him. (After all he has been to EUROPE and every one there is100% healthy!!)
Bruno
February 28th, 2013
10:00 pm
Dusty–For whatever reason, many people just can’t stop pushing their self-destruct buttons. It’s some kind of mental/emotional thing, and no amount of counseling can change it.
For me, taking care of your body is almost a spiritual thing. We’re given this miraculous existence, so the least we can do is honor the gift.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right
February 28th, 2013
10:09 pm
As usual, JDW blathers on anything else but the subject at hand.
MarkV
February 28th, 2013
10:12 pm
We have always known that Tiberius is obnoxious and arrogant. Now we also know that he is a pathetic coward who is unable to admit an error.
Politico
February 28th, 2013
10:20 pm
“Politico attacks the posters, but contributes nothing else. And repeats the same things more often than AmVet ever did. Too bad Politico won’t take the same path and self banish himself. “-
Big baby but short in statue just can’t help herself. Another one who insults and call names but cant take the same heat she attempts to turn up
take it up with Kyle little tike
Dusty
February 28th, 2013
10:22 pm
That’s a special thought you gave us there, BRUNO, “We’re given this miraculous existence, so the least we can do is honor the gift.” I also like to honor the Giver with appreciation. Each of us finds their way of doing that.
Today, I noticed spring is almost here. A little wren is busy building a nest under the eaves of my store room. She has found a special spot and is setting up housekeeping. Funny how such a little thing can please but it did.
Now, I say G’nite. Getting late…
Bruno
February 28th, 2013
10:22 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrGuVa-4BVE
md
February 28th, 2013
10:25 pm
” One common assumption liberals seem to make is that people are basically incompetent and incapable of self-control, such that we shouldn’t hold them responsible for any bad habits they may pick up along the way. ”
Just watched a woman interviewed about the Miss Delaware issue and the young ladies choice to resign after the news came out she did a porn video and the woman doctor? said it wasn’t her fault it was the fault of the girls surroundings and society in general.
Perfect example of why we are circling the drain…….
Bruno
February 28th, 2013
10:40 pm
Acoustic version of “Echoes”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPXWKO-EBgc
WillyWonka
February 28th, 2013
11:21 pm
Kyle, I am tired of you and other right wing Republicans trying to undermine progress by selectively misrepresenting data and findings of governmental agency reports, for the purpose of fear mongering and spreading your not so “real truth.”
In a new report, the nonpartisan Government Accountability Office (GAO) found that President Obama’s signature law could increase or decrease the deficit over the next 75 years depending on whether its cost-saving provisions survive.
[...]
Assuming the law is enforced as-is, the U.S. deficit will decline 1.5 percent as a share of the economy over the next 75 years, according to the GAO. Auditors attributed 1.2 percent of this improvement to the Affordable Care Act.
Under a different set of assumptions, the law has the opposite effect over time, the GAO said — the deficit will increase by 0.7 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) if the law’s cost-containment measures are phased out.
The report attributed this potential increase in part to the law’s most expensive features — the Medicaid expansion and the provision of insurance subsidies.
The report was requested by Sen. Jeff Sessions (Ala.), the top Republican on the Senate Budget Committee. On Tuesday, he and his office jumped on the figures to say that the healthcare law will increase the deficit by $6.2 trillion over 75 years.
To arrive at this figure, Sessions’s office assumed the second scenario, in which the law’s cost-containment measures end, and added up 75 year’s [sic] worth of deficits using GDP projections from the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. [The Hill, 2/26/13]
td
February 28th, 2013
11:29 pm
Money borrowed from China to pay for the free healthcare for the irresponsible. Progressive logic at its best.
On top of this truth, where is the 10% (close to a billion per year) going to come from? We are stealing the money from our children now (education funding) to pay for the increases in Medicaid already on the books. More progressive logic, our free healthcare is more important then our childrens future.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
February 28th, 2013
11:46 pm
Greedy progs make real Americans sick.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
March 1st, 2013
6:58 am
“The worst-case scenario for us,” a leading anti-budget-cuts lobbyist told The Post, “is the sequester hits and nothing bad really happens.” – Krauthammer
Notice how what’s bad for obozo is good for the country?
JDW
March 1st, 2013
7:38 am
@Bruno…”As one who has worked in health care for nearly 27 years, I can assure JDW that doctor input has minimal impact on patient’s choices.”
Maybe that depends on the doctor…mine damn sure isn’t shy about making his opinion known. As for this whole choices hoorah, Some people will make bad choices no matter what, however an efficient health care system will offer them the choice of an annual physical, the choice to resolve their issues, the choice for better prenatal care and other similar choices. Ours does not do that for the nearly 50 million people in this country that have no insurance and as such limited access to care.
I guess it comes down to a choice, do you want to live in a society that turns it’s back on 50 million citizens ot not. Might I suggest a visit to South Africa to see how an extreme example of that plays out, they made many decisions along that line for a long time. Now those that have live behind razor wire with private security and close the access roads to town to keep “those people” out.
JDW
March 1st, 2013
7:41 am
@Bruno…”I’m not sure why this shell game of shuffling money around is generating so much excitement here among the Libs. It’s this simple: our health care delivery system is too expensive.”
Yes it is far to expensive, but the only way to eat such an elephant is one bite at a time. There is no universal fix in this political environment. The ACA is a start not an end.
JDW
March 1st, 2013
7:44 am
@Dusty…”(After all he has been to EUROPE and every one there is100% healthy!!)”
Actually I have lived there and recieved care in the dreaded socialized medicine system…pssssstttt it works about the same as it does here except lots cheaper. As for 100% healthy, nope, just more healthy than us.
JDW
March 1st, 2013
7:48 am
@Tiberius…”As usual, JDW blathers on anything else but the subject at hand.”
Please do point out anything of substance in ANY one of your posts in this blog…there isn’t one…not a fact, not a link, not a hypothesis, not an argument. Nothing but insults and proclamations from Tiberiusville…most proving to be wrong as per usual.
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
March 1st, 2013
8:19 am
As Bruno points out the principal problem with lack of healthcare is waste in the system, which inflates what we pay. We all realize that our healthcare system could be better, but as with any problem, the libs always want to turn to the government for help. Waste and government go together like peanut butter and jelly. There is no reason to believe that if people go to the doctor more, their medical problems will disappear. If you are predisposed to a certain illness, more than likely a trip to the doctor is not going to save you. Early detection is good for cancer, but doesn’t help much with Alzheimers. Different people need different amounts of medical intervention. Do we let Gov impose a one size fits all approach, or do we let the doctor and the patient determine what makes sense for that patient.
What we need is more competition, as competition eliminates waste. We need to take the limits off medical school enrollments and do away with the certificate of need for the hospitals. Lets let the natural order of free enterprise work. Lets allow insurance companies to see wherever and whatever they desire. Let hospitals and doctors sell insurance and sell prepaid medical treatment plans. The poor will need to be subsidized in some way to start with, but prices will fall eventually, IMO.
Every patient should be in charge of managing, with his doctor, his own medical treatment. Often, we are better judges of what our money is spent on than a doctor reading from his AMA guidelines. I have thrown many prescriptions away and cancelled many doctors appointments, because I decided to give it a day or so for the condition to reconcile itself, which it did, rather than run to the doctor and drugstore and spend the money for that miracle cream or salve the MD prescribed. If the medicine and care were free, I would not have made the same decision.
Rafe’s solution, available for $0.99, but willing to the meet all competitive prices.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
March 1st, 2013
8:27 am
The President threatens to veto a bill to let him do less harm.
House Republicans are offering to give Mr. Obama even more flexibility, yet the President won’t take yes for an answer.
Mull that one over: The President wants to deny himself and his executive branch the authority to do less harm. Don’t stop me before I kill again.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324662404578332613534040162.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_AboveLEFTTop
————————–
Obozo is more interested in causing as much harm as possible with the sequester than in using the flexibility he already has to make smart cuts. Now he says he would veto a bill to give himself even more flexibility.
Obozo: Party over country. Every time. All campaign, no solutions.
Real Athens
March 1st, 2013
8:57 am
Aesop at 6:54 PM last night:
“Any idiot can understand this, er, I mean, “most” idiots. But not our idiot president.”
Then again at 6:58 am this morning:
“Notice how what’s bad for obozo is good for the country?”
I think I see a pattern here.
Politico
March 1st, 2013
9:18 am
Rafe
While there is much waste as you stated, you do realize that some of the restrictions that you speak of are in place due to the direct lobbying efforts of the same companies you think just want to give us lower prices if they could just get past the government hurdles…
Some of these hurdles are pushed by companies and industries to reduce competition..
Insurance companies are not just lobbying government for less regs. When it suits the larger ones, they are lobbying for more regs in their efforts to curtail competition…
There was a time that these companies wanted to compete. It was when they were smaller and working to gain market share. Now they are at or towards the top in market share, some prefer as little competition and price decreases as possible. They don’t always get that and it depends on the industry but insurance in some aspects surely fits the bill.
md
March 1st, 2013
9:20 am
“I guess it comes down to a choice, do you want to live in a society that turns it’s back on 50 million citizens ot not. ”
And there is the way the libs look at the world, it’s always the responsible ones that are the greedy ones for refusing to take care of the ones that make the choices NOT to participate.
I’ll once again point folks like jdw to the education system. Taxpayer dollars (from those greedy people that pay taxes) used to provide an assistance program for ALL, yet .25 – .30 CHOOSE not to participate in said “free” assistance.
And yet to some libs it is the other group that is shirking it’s duty to society………
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
March 1st, 2013
9:24 am
“however an efficient health care system will offer them the choice of an annual physical”
Continuing the effort to provide the dumbest posts in the history of Kyle’s blog, JDW provide the one above.
Do you even know how much an annual physical costs when you pay cash, JDW?
I suspect it is like a lot of things with you, in that you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Rush
March 1st, 2013
9:52 am
Why not hang out in Europe then if it was so great, JDW? I hear Greece is in wonderful financial condition and would welcome someone of your superior intellect on such matters. LOL
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
March 1st, 2013
9:56 am
(After all he has been to EUROPE and every one there is100% healthy!!
Maybe not 100 percent.
But they are sure a lot healthier than we are and spend far less than we do on it.
They all have Universal Healthcare too.
But I guess that is just a coincidence right …..
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
March 1st, 2013
9:58 am
I see Cheesy Grits did a hard hitting interview Fox News.
He was like ” Dude the election was totally like a roller coaster and we were like totally into it. But then the roller coaster like totally stopped and we were like so bummed”
Drudge
March 1st, 2013
10:02 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0cJFhGf2ZQs
Remember this? NOT ONE DIME added to the national debt. He was right, not one dime – $6.2 Trillion. This is from the GAO. That’s 62,000,000,000,000 dimes for those of you playing at home.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
March 1st, 2013
10:02 am
they are lobbying for more regs in their efforts to curtail competition…
Good luck getting that concept through the thick Con skull.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
March 1st, 2013
10:04 am
A man was missing early Friday after a large sinkhole opened under the bedroom of a house near Tampa and his brother says the man screamed for help before he disappeared.
Let’s move to Florida!
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
March 1st, 2013
10:07 am
“But I guess that is just a coincidence right …..”
No, they are completely unrelated, Cheesy. Apples and oranges in fact.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
March 1st, 2013
10:09 am
No, they are completely unrelated, Cheesy. Apples and oranges in fact.
True ignorance.
In fact they are related.
Dusty
March 1st, 2013
10:09 am
I hope Kyle goes to a new subject soon. This one is SAD. Here are reflections from some of the liberal comments here.
LIberals believe that almost 50% of Americans are incapable of taking care of themselves.
That Obama’s policies may or may not decrease the deficit in SEVENTY FIVE YEARS!!
That American healthcare (the best in the world) is still inferior because it is not yet controlled by government.
That America is controlled by big business, cheaters, the “rich”,( yet it is still the world center for freedom),
That bad decisions on health, climate, finances, are not related to personal decisions but to the surroundings or other people.
There is plenty of money out there to be borrowed if China will no longer loan money to the USA.
Austerity and budgets are for wimps!
Living in other countries is so much better than in America. Their healthcare and manufactured goods are so much better than the stuff manufactured in America by greedy companies and rich managers.
The list goes on. Any appreciation for our country is deemed as silly patriotism and stuffy promotion. Defense is for war mongers! Taxes should come mainly from the rich!
——————
Hurry, Kyle. We definitely need some fresh air here.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
March 1st, 2013
10:15 am
Remember this? NOT ONE DIME added to the national debt. He was right, not one dime – $6.2 Trillion. This is from the GAO. That’s 62,000,000,000,000 dimes for those of you playing at home.
Ronald Reagan tripled the national debt in 8 years. Obama wont come close to that.
In fact our debt has spiraled out of control pretty much since Republicans started cutting taxes and adding loopholes for their rich buddies.
Its the revenue stupid
And the wealth in this country is flowing very quickly to the top while we fight for the scraps. We were told it would trickle back down. I’m still waiting.
And they sell that trickle down lemon to you guys and you fall for it every time.
“There’s a sucker born every minute”
- P.T. Barnum
They are called Republicans today P.T.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
March 1st, 2013
10:15 am
“In fact they are related.”
Prove it, Cheesy, instead of giving an uninformed opinion. Your “it costs less because they have universal health care” was debunked yesterday when I brought up doctors salaries here vs. there (a little bit of information you chose to ignore).
So prove that they are related.
Of course, you might want to pay your doctor an hourly wage consistent with a government bureaucrat, but that’s not a doctor I’m willing to go see.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
March 1st, 2013
10:17 am
Complete nonsense by Dusty.
Not a fact in there.
I did a whole thing on How a 2 year old loves mommy
Dusty fits right in there nicely.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
March 1st, 2013
10:18 am
Your “it costs less because they have universal health care” was debunked yesterday
No it wasn’t. In fact it was clearly proven.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
March 1st, 2013
10:21 am
A Strategic Counsel survey found 91% of Canadians prefer their healthcare system instead of a U.S. style system. Plus 70% of Canadians rated their system as working either “well” or “very well”.
I guess Doctors in Canada are terrible and they are all idiots.
And before you start with the well why do they come here for healthcare you are wrong about that too.
More Americans go there instead of staying in the states and going broke.
In fact all along the border there are marriages of convenience for just that reason.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
March 1st, 2013
10:21 am
“Remember this? NOT ONE DIME added to the national debt. He was right, not one dime – $6.2 Trillion. This is from the GAO. That’s 62,000,000,000,000 dimes for those of you playing at home.”
Cheesy’s response: “Ronald Reagan tripled the national debt in 8 years. Obama wont come close to that.”
Ah, the red meat of the liberal – deflection.
In case you missed it (and of course you did), Cheesy, the argument being made as the absurdity of President Incompetent saying his most recent SOTU proposal wouldn’t add in dime to our debt (even though he’s added so much more than that in just his first term of office).
Anybody willing to debate the issue would offer a counter argument to that original argument.
The “but he did it first” deflection argument went out of fashion when you got out of fourth grade (assuming you ever did), Cheesy.
JDW
March 1st, 2013
10:21 am
@Tiberius…”Continuing the effort to provide the dumbest posts in the history of Kyle’s blog, JDW provide the one above. Do you even know how much an annual physical costs when you pay cash, JDW? I suspect it is like a lot of things with you, in that you don’t know what you’re talking about.”
I see our resident self appointed Constitutional expert is taking a break in his exhaustive search for the federal budget requirements set forth in the Constitution…how is it coming find anything yet? Didn’t think so.
O’ well on to educating you today….
How much…well silly it depends on what you include. Just the basics you can get away for around $200 start adding in things like EKG’s, colonoscopies and such and it gets lots more expensive quick….
“According to The Medical Expenditure Panel Survey, a set of large-scale surveys on the use and cost of health services conducted by the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, the average price of an office visit for an uninsured patient is $199.”
BTW that quote up above its called supporting evidence normally used by those of us that understand that we don’t know everything…try it sometime it will do wonders for your credibility…now back to the ranch.
However in your rush to poo poo…after all what uninsured below poverty line earner wouldn’t have a couple of hundred laying around for such things…you forget that preventive care…like an annual physical, done properly, is one of the building blocks of keeping costs down and when you don’t have health insurance you are much more likely not to receive that care…running the costs up for everyone.
“Uninsured citizens are three times less likely to receive medical care as insured persons. So it’s no surprise that the uninsured receive less preventive care and have higher mortality rates than those with coverage. By the time they begin to show symptoms and visit a doctor, their condition is often far more difficult (and expensive) to treat.”
http://www.insweb.com/health-insurance/preventive-care-health-insurance.html
Again note the link, supporting evidence…try it…you will look like a fool less often.
indigo
March 1st, 2013
10:22 am
Dusty – 10:09 “liberals believe that almost 50% of Americans are incapable of taking care of themselves”
That kind of hyberbole is why most of us here have concluded the only thing you’re good for is a contemptus laugh.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
March 1st, 2013
10:24 am
“A Strategic Counsel survey found 91% of Canadians prefer their healthcare system instead of a U.S. style system.”
And well they should, as it works for them in their system of government. Of course, they don’t live under a Constitutional Republic which basically prohibits universal health care, so their opinion in this regard really doesn’t matter, does it?
“Plus 70% of Canadians rated their system as working either “well” or “very well”.”
And over 90% of insured in the U.S. rate their health care as well or very well, Cheesy. So why did the government interfere in that system instead of fixing the part that wasn’t so good?
JDW
March 1st, 2013
10:25 am
@Tbierius…”Your “it costs less because they have universal health care” was debunked yesterday when I brought up doctors salaries here vs. there”
You never did explain how our cost problem could be the fault of doctors earnings when if they earned ZERO our costs per capita would still exceed the rest of the world.
JDW
March 1st, 2013
10:33 am
@Tbierius…”And over 90% of insured in the U.S. rate their health care as well or very well”
I see you didn’t catch on to the point about supporting evidence and plan to stick with pulling stuff out your a$$.
Now for the real story…according to Gallup (since it doesn’t involve a presidential race maybe it is more accurate)
“One aspect of the U.S. healthcare system Americans are generally positive about is quality — 62% rate it as excellent or good. That ties as the best rating of U.S. healthcare quality Gallup has measured since it began tracking this item in 2001, though excellent/good ratings of quality have never dropped below 53%.”
http://www.gallup.com/poll/158966/majority-against-gov-healthcare-guarantee.aspx
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
March 1st, 2013
10:34 am
“How much…well silly it depends on what you include. Just the basics you can get away for around $200 start adding in things like EKG’s, colonoscopies and such and it gets lots more expensive quick…”
Very good, JDW. You have now LEARNED something (a bit of a stretch for you, but congratulations).
So when did an EKG or colonoscopy become part of a basic physical? Answer: It didn’t, but thanks for adding in those things as yet another deflection from the topic.
So, let’s get down to the basic physical, shall we? You claim that the average poor person wouldn’t have $200 buck lying around, and that likely is true, given that many of them spend their limited dollars on cigarettes and beer instead of what’s important – like health care. But even with your inflated cost of $200 bucks (more like $125 in the Atlanta area and in most non-urban areas across the country), you’re claiming that someone interested in actually getting an annual physical can’t find a way to scrape together $3.84 per week and put it aside for that doctor’s visit which would at least put them on the path towards a healthier lifestyle?
Or maybe, like so many others of your ilk, it’s just better to screw the rest of us into paying for that now $300 insurance-covered physical instead of buying one less pack of smokes or one less six-pack per week and being responsible, isn’t it?
Priorities, JDW.
Responsible people get them done. The irresponsible become Democrats.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
March 1st, 2013
10:36 am
Silly JDW. Can’t even read what I posted. Typical.
I said those that were INSURED, dummy. Not all people.
Pay attention next time, tool.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
March 1st, 2013
10:37 am
“You never did explain how our cost problem could be the fault of doctors earnings when if they earned ZERO our costs per capita would still exceed the rest of the world.”
You never explained how they would, JDW.
md
March 1st, 2013
10:49 am
“Ronald Reagan tripled the national debt in 8 years. Obama wont come close to that.”
Wow, talking about comparing apples to oranges…..and the scary part is some folks actually think it is relevant.
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
March 1st, 2013
10:54 am
Politico
I’m not naive, I agree with you, I know the big guys try to buy up the small ones and discourage competition, but their are FTC laws against that practice in other industries, they could write and enforce those to stimulate competition.. There are ways to encourage SBA to maybe even emphasize new medical small business startups.
Politico
March 1st, 2013
11:04 am
Rafe
The big boys in insurance hide behind the McCarren – Ferguson act and I doubt there is much that either party is doing or wants to do to change that. The money that is poured in via lobbying and campaign contributions might have something to do with it I’m guessing.
As for other aspects of the health and medical industry, you do make some good points.
JDW
March 1st, 2013
12:36 pm
@Tiberius…”You never explained how they would, JDW.”
Reading dysfunction still intact I see…from my 6:32 yesterday,,,
“Still math challenged I see. It works like this… according to the OECD, you know that link I gave you earlier that you obviously distaining viewing ’cause as well all know YOU KNOW EVERYTHING we spend $8233 per year per person. Doctors account for about 1/5 or $1646 of that total…if we paid them ZERO our costs would STILL BE $6586 per person which is more than the number two nation on the hit parade Norway at $5388 per person.”
Try again.
JDW
March 1st, 2013
12:38 pm
@Tiberius…”So when did an EKG or colonoscopy become part of a basic physical?”
At 50 or with history of heart disease or colon cancer…you must not have had yours yet…you wouldn’t forget.
JDW
March 1st, 2013
12:43 pm
@Tiberius…”Or maybe, like so many others of your ilk, it’s just better to screw the rest of us into paying for that now $300 insurance-covered physical instead of buying one less pack of smokes or one less six-pack per week and being responsible, isn’t it?…Priorities, JDW…Responsible people get them done. The irresponsible become Democrats.”
Actually the responsible thing to do is provide the preventive care needed and thereby lower the costs for the rest of us instead of obsessing over the erroneous though that you might get “screwed” out of something…you seem to be too selfish to grasp that. You constant remind me of a 5 year old yelling mine mine mine.
Priorities Tiberius…yours need evaluating…then again maybe you are just channeling your inner John C. Calhoun.