School choice: We can’t help the poor by helping only them
Opponents of school choice measures such as vouchers or tax-credit scholarships love to do a little two-step.
First, they insist choice measures be limited only to low-income families — for the sake of being “fair.” Then, they note the tuition charged by existing private schools and say these families couldn’t possibly make up the difference between those prices and the value of the voucher or scholarship, and thus we might as well scrap the choice measures.
With that, they sit back and fold their arms, confident they’ve done something other than prove the basic laws of economics apply to education.
Before we burst their bubble, let’s take a step back.
The goal of anyone interested in education should be to see that all children attend quality schools. Right?
In a triumph of hope over experience, choice opponents think this can be accomplished through existing public schools alone. If only we spend more and more (and more) money on them.
The rest of us understand the public schools need more competition. More competition would not only mean new, better options for families. It would compel public schools to improve themselves, too.
That is, after all, the way the world works. Consider an example: digital cameras.
Economist Mark J. Perry last year observed that, in 2000, Nikon’s popular CoolPix camera was a 3-megapixel camera that cost $1,337 (adjusted for inflation). By 2012, the CoolPix was a 16.1-megapixel gadget that retailed for $197.
So, in 12 years the camera became more than five times more powerful even though it sold at less than a sixth of the price.
What drove those changes? Technological innovation, of course, but also competition. In fact, competition spurred the innovation: Had Nikon enjoyed a government-enforced market share of more than 90 percent, we hardly could have expected its camera to undergo such substantial increases in quality or decreases in price, much less both.
We shouldn’t expect to see competition change education quite that dramatically, though there is great untapped potential for schools to use technology. But neither can we expect education to improve at more than a modest rate so long as public schools face little competition.
That brings us back to means-testing for school-choice measures, and those basic laws of economics.
In case it’s been a while since you took Econ 101: When demand rises, supply increases to meet it. All else being equal, this tends to drive prices down over time.
It is precisely because demand for educational alternatives is artificially depressed, by the existence of “free” public schools, that their supply remains so restricted and their prices so high.
If we continue to limit school choice measures via income thresholds, or most any other restriction, we will simply ensure demand remains low. That’s a sure-fire way to keep supply low, too, and prevent the robust competition needed to boost the quality of all schools.
And that, in turn, will keep tuition prices from falling to the point even those families that do qualify for a voucher or tax-credit scholarship can afford other options.
The end result will be failure for the choice measures, and more middling improvement in educational quality.
To be fair, choice opponents aren’t the only ones who favor means-testing. Some advocates would accept income limits if that meant choice measures moved forward sooner.
While I can’t fault them for their impatience, and while I certainly share their concern for lower-income families, they need to realize they risk crippling the entire effort before it has a chance to succeed. Worse, they risk preventing even those lower-income families from seeing the very changes they so desperately need.
That’s hardly “fair,” to those families or anyone else.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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278 comments Add your comment
MiltonMan
February 21st, 2013
6:24 am
Libs would not know what fair is if their lives depended upon it. Their defintion of fair: “Tax those rich people who are “lucky” to be rich”.
Numbers-R-US
February 21st, 2013
6:29 am
So how much has Phoenix University lowered the cost of a quality education.
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
6:33 am
Good points, but the emotion charged opponents of
these measures and their cries of “they’re stealing
MY tax money”, “they’re destroying public education”
and “they want to teach Jesus riding dinosaurs” are
coming from the education elite and they
are a powerful lobby without fairness in their claims.
DeborahinAthens
February 21st, 2013
6:45 am
As a real capitalist (I say this because I make my living that way) it amuses me when the “free market creates competition, free market creates jobs, the free market brings costs down, free market good, government bad…” chant starts up. We, who believe in (good) public education see people that have a stated agenda to bring about the eradication of government. They follow idiots like Grover Norquist who want to ” shrink government until it can be drowned in a bathtub.” They elect people like George W. Bush who stated many times that he wanted to get rid of Social Security. We know that your golden boys like Boortz and Hannity want to eliminate public education and “government schools”. We know that, since you cannot overtly do these things, you have resorted to starving the schools. Our public schools in this miserable state have had billions stripped from their budgets, parapros fired, teachers fired, days cut, curricula decimated. So we see what the agenda is. One does not have to be a rocket scientist to realize how the voucher system is going to work. And Kyle, if you do not see that the vouchers are going to aid the kids that are already going to private schools. The public money needed so badly for public schools will be going to for-profit schools and religious organizations. These schools can take whomever they want, so the kids that are problems won’t show up there. They do not have to account to the taxpayers for what they teach, they don’t have to meet the same standards as the public schools. The poorer students that cannot afford the difference (and I am amazed at how you gloss over this) will stay behind in schools that are going to be worse and worse because their students don’t have access to the programs that make a student attractive to colleges. Schools are not camera manufacturers! You can’t bring your prices down by moving your manufacturing plant to China. You need good teachers who are paid a good, competitive salary. You need good textbooks, computers, libraries (another thing the right wing ding bats want to get rid of) . Should teachers be held accountable? Absolutely! But I am sick to death of the “free market” screed. In a free market school system kids become the commodity. Corporations whose only concern is profit will run the charter schools and our tax dollars will be going to religious schools that will not teach evolution. So, Kyle, spin, spin, spin. We The People see what you are doing, and we will do everything to try to prevent it.
Numbers-R-US
February 21st, 2013
6:51 am
Feel free to promote legislation that would eliminate the use of property tax, or any other tax for that matter, to fund education and push for a pay as you go system instead. That should hurry along the optimization of the competitive environment you seek. Of course there is that little constitutional requirement to contend with but I’m sure you resourceful cons can figure out a work around that you will find financially palatable.
Jefferson
February 21st, 2013
7:07 am
You are really clueless about the country.
Numbers-R-US
February 21st, 2013
7:09 am
Here’s a little light reading for those interested in “larning up” on that competitive education thing that Kyle and Co. are hyping.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 21st, 2013
7:20 am
Scores from the 2009 Programme for International Student Assessment to be released Tuesday show 15-year-old students in the U.S. performing about average in reading and science, and below average in math. Out of 34 countries, the U.S. ranked 14th in reading, 17th in science and 25th in math.
Guess when all that^^ started -
The United States is living on its past. Among the oldest group in the study (those aged 56–65), U.S. prose skills rose to second place. For those attending school in the 1950s, SAT scores reached an all-time high.
As the years go by, the United States slips down the list. Americans educated in the sixties captured a Bronze Medal in literacy, those schooled in the seventies got 5th place in the race.
That’s right, when the liberals took over education.
About time to kick them out, isn’t it?
Thomas Heyward Jr
February 21st, 2013
7:25 am
Even WITH competition, government school Department of Education will only be an indoctrination pipeline to the Department of Corrections for the free-thinkers and a pipeline to the Department of Labor for the easily managed no-thinkers.
There’s more to life than being a drone.
.
Save your mind……….Get out of these cages as soon as possible and teach yourself., work hard and maybe you can emulate the following High School drop outs.
.
Richard Branson (Virgin) – With an estimated net worth of $4 billion, Richard left high school at age 16 to start an arts and cultural magazine called Student.
Eminem (Rapper) – With a net worth over $300 million, Eminem once failed the ninth grade three times before dropping out.
Jay-Z (Rapper) – With a net worth of nearly $500 million, Jay Z never graduated high school.
Andrew Jackson (President of the United States, picture on twenty dollar bill) – With little formal education, Andrew studied law in his late teens and became a lawyer.
Jack London – American author
Ray Charles – American musician
Dizzy Gillespie – American musician
Peter Jennings – US/Canadian journalist
Ansel Adams – US nature photographer
Louis Armstrong – American musician
Humphrey Bogart – Actor
Rosa Parks – Activist
007 – Superspy (Neither Sean Connery nor Pierce Brosnan graduated)
Charles Chaplin – Actor-writer-director-producer
Thomas Haffa – German self-made double digit billionaire
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
7:31 am
DeborahinAthens proves my point.
JDW
February 21st, 2013
7:45 am
@Kyle…”Opponents of school choice measures such as vouchers or tax-credit scholarships love to do a little two-step.”
Maybe some do I do not…government monies should not be paid to provide private school educations to ANY student…poor or not. That money, energy, time and participation should be focused on public schools. Now if you want to talk about the ablity to shift districts or for parents…not companies…to run a school as a charter that is a different subject. Though one I think should be a decision for those parents and boards at the local level.
“It is precisely because demand for educational alternatives is artificially depressed, by the existence of “free” public schools, that their supply remains so restricted and their prices so high.”
HORSE HOOEY…there is no suppression of supply. You have kids call a couple of private schools in the area and tell them you are interested. You will be amazed at the competition and marketing that will try to get your dollars. As for “free” public schools, you must be the only one that believes that. It is precisely because they are not free that the investment should be maximized rather that diluted.
JDW
February 21st, 2013
7:50 am
@Aseop…”Scores from the 2009 Programme for International Student Assessment to be released Tuesday show 15-year-old students in the U.S. performing about average in reading and science, and below average in math. Out of 34 countries, the U.S. ranked 14th in reading, 17th in science and 25th in math.”
Let me give you a clue, storyteller. The countries that rank ahead of us aren’t doing in with less government and more private enterprise. They are doing it with strong NATIONAL taxpayer funded schools that are held to common standards…you know just the sort of thing you don’t get when government is out of the equation.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 21st, 2013
7:53 am
So the high test scores in 1950 produced with less government mean nothing to you, eh, jdw?
rwcole
February 21st, 2013
8:00 am
Kyle speaks like someone getting a tax credit that he desperately wants to keep. He wants it so badly that his logic does a two-step that dances over the reality. If you want to send your kids to private school, you have that option. Why are you trying to ruin public education in the process? Why should my tax dollars go down a religious rabbit hole with no oversight at all?
rwcole
February 21st, 2013
8:02 am
And what Deborah in Athens says!! I agree 100%
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
8:03 am
Public educators love to point to the parents as
the cause of children’s failure to learn but when
parents choose to switch to different educators
and take their tax dollars with them, the public
educators cry foul and take your kid but pay us
anyway.
sailfish
February 21st, 2013
8:05 am
kyle
Talk about apples and oranges; comparing schools and digital camera’s is weak and really not relevant at all. It’s not competetion that makes schools better, it’s the buyin by PARENTS to hold their CHILDREN and TEACHERS accountable. It is a three legged stool and take away one of the legs and the stool is not functional. In the real world, how is it possible that charter schools with teachers who are paid way less will get better outcomes? Easy, cherry pick the student population and leave all the losers to the public schools. How does that work out in competitive sports? Usually the teams with the best players win.
The real problem here is our soceity and the break down of the family. The entertainment culture is a huge magnet that does not in any way, shape, or form advocate for education. Imagine if you will a culture that promotes education and RESPECTS those in the teaching profession Charter schools are the new corporate money grab, thars money in them thar hallways – that’s there bottom line as always. It’s a political solution that does nothing to solve a real world problem..
Whirled Peas
February 21st, 2013
8:09 am
Look at what competition has done for the world of communications since they took away AT&T’s monopoly power over the phone. Without deregulation I doubt there would be an internet today. Removing the government’s monopoly power over our education tax dollars would do to education what deregulating the phone system did to communications. It wouldn’t happen over night, but within a decade we would see real innovation in education. Teachers would hate it, just like AT&T’s employees hated deregulation. But in the end it would be the best for all.
BuckeyeInGa
February 21st, 2013
8:12 am
@BF 8:03–Public educators love to point to the parents as
the cause of children’s failure to learn but when
parents choose to switch to different educators
and take their tax dollars with them, the public
educators cry foul and take your kid but pay us
anyway.
Pay us anyway? By that logic someone that doesn’t have kids should be able to take they tax money and use it where they see fit.
Aquagirl
February 21st, 2013
8:15 am
Education works like a CoolPix camera! Therefore, school vouchers!
I think Sarah Palin has found a new job ghostwriting for Kyle.
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
8:17 am
BuckeyeInGa
Pay us anyway? By that logic someone that doesn’t have kids should be able to take they tax money and use it where they see fit.
……………………………………………………………………
I believe that under the Scholarship program they can do that
and corporations can too.
BuckeyeInGa
February 21st, 2013
8:22 am
Barking Frog
I believe that under the Scholarship program they can do that
and corporations can too.
——————————-
You’re saying they can take the money and use it on something like road expansion by their home, or must it still go to a school?
Peadawg
February 21st, 2013
8:23 am
Republicans seem to be ok with handouts and entitlements as long as they go towards the rich (who are already well off and can afford it).
Numbers-R-US
February 21st, 2013
8:25 am
I hear Kyle has a mini-med plan to offer the conned here too.
Darwin
February 21st, 2013
8:33 am
I agree. And we can only help the poor by giving major tax breaks to the very wealthy while cutting social programs to the poor. Gosh, I see so many other applications of this theory. Let’s go for it.
UIC
February 21st, 2013
8:33 am
Color me pessimistic Kyle, but based on a few of your recent editorials, I’m guessing you have young kids who are just starting or will soon be starting school, you want to put them in private schools, but you don’t qualify for financial assistance, so you’re hoping a few editorials, that include comparing the education of children to improvements in digital cameras, will get a groundswell of support to have government funds handed to for profit schools that will, in your mind, separate your kids from those in public schools you consider undesirable.
JDW
February 21st, 2013
8:36 am
@Aseop…”So the high test scores in 1950 produced with less government mean nothing to you, eh, jdw?”
Todays US scores are far far higher than they were in 1950. What has happened is the other countries got better while we have been “held back” by paranioa and voter ignorance.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 21st, 2013
8:37 am
Maybe Kyle doesn’t want his children to grow up to be stupid like all these liberals are.
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
8:40 am
BuckeyeinGa
just to a school.
Peadawg
February 21st, 2013
8:43 am
UIC
February 21st, 2013
8:33 am
Ouch! Very nice.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
8:51 am
“We, who believe in (good) public education see people that have a stated agenda to bring about the eradication of government.”
Pure, unadulterated hyperbolic nonsense, DeborahinAthens.
As is the rest of your 6:45 screed.
Try reality sometime. As well as educating yourself on what people whom you disagree with REALLY want to do.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
8:54 am
“government monies should not be paid to provide private school educations to ANY student”
Forget where “government monies” come from originally, JDW?
Steve
February 21st, 2013
8:55 am
So, let me ask this – what countries are providing better educated students than us? And of those countries, which ones are sending kids in wealthy communities to fantastic private schools and those in poorer area to lousy public and/or private schools? Think about it – schooling needs to be regulated, public, and equal, for all students. Comparing privatizing schools to digital phones is comparing apples to watermelons.
Steve
February 21st, 2013
8:58 am
The United States places 17th in the developed world for education, according to a global report by education firm Pearson.
Finland and South Korea, not surprisingly, top the list of 40 developed countries with the best education systems. Hong Kong, Japan and Singapore follow.
++++++++++
A new global league table, produced by the Economist Intelligence Unit for Pearson, has found Finland to be the best education system in the world.
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/finlands-education-system-best-in-world-2012-11?op=1#ixzz2LXeyXONf
How did they do it? Read the article. HINT: The school system is 100% state funded
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
8:59 am
“Todays US scores are far far higher than they were in 1950. ”
And yet the kids coming out of high school are largely dumber than a sack of hammers.
They know how to take standardize tests, but don’t really know anything. Kinda like liberals in general.
Steve
February 21st, 2013
8:59 am
But hey – learning from other countries’ successes is too obvious a solution, right?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
9:00 am
“How did they do it? Read the article. HINT: The school system is 100% state funded”
Uh, Steve?
Hint: So are ours . . . . .
Steve
February 21st, 2013
9:02 am
Hint – read the article. That’s just one of many things they did to make it work.
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
9:03 am
Steve
Has Finland’s space exploration program been a success also?
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
February 21st, 2013
9:04 am
whirled peas makes an excellent point!
Choice, except for maternity options, is not a word often found in liberal ideology. Government is always their choice.
Just Saying..
February 21st, 2013
9:05 am
“Save your mind……….Get out of these cages as soon as possible and teach yourself., work hard and maybe you can emulate the following High School drop outs.”
Ah, an attaboy for drop-outs.
Hard to figure why one Party has an anti-science, anti-math, anti-education image…
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
9:05 am
Steve, I did read the article, and some of their methods make a certain amount of sense.
It was YOU who chose to put up the stupid conclusion about funding being their source of success, not me.
Steve
February 21st, 2013
9:06 am
Barking frog – is Finland a world power that is seeking space exploration? Is this the kindergarten community forum or what? durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Steve
February 21st, 2013
9:07 am
Tiberius, if they were successful and promoted privatizing schools, then it would back up Kyle’s argument. However, I don’t see any countries who have been successful privatizing schools, and asking me to send my tax monies to a wealthy community in Peachtree city while a school in East Point flounders because the community isn’t wealthy.
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
9:09 am
Steve
You are extolling the wonderful rating Finland has
yet you provide no examples of the product of that
education system which should be easy for someone
above the kindergarten community forum.
bob
February 21st, 2013
9:11 am
deborahinathens, Bush did not want to get rid of SS, he wanted to improve it because it is a ripoff to any responsible person, but I see from your post you need gov to take 12.4% of your gross up to 108K and flush it. By defending SS you show us you are one of the sheeple. Your rants mean nothing.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
9:12 am
“and asking me to send my tax monies to a wealthy community in Peachtree city while a school in East Point flounders because the community isn’t wealthy.”
But FORCING me to give my tax money to an enterprise that fails to educate my kids properly is fine?
Why can’t I just get back what I was forced to pay, and use it where I see fit?
Deep Cover
February 21st, 2013
9:13 am
You have to LOVE conservatives that like to push “false equivalencies.” It is very FOOLISH to compare a digital camera to education…it just doesn’t MAKE ANY SENSE.
For the uneducated, misinformed, or just plain ignorant here are a FEW of the differences. Digital camera components are governed by Moore’s Law (especially the memory). Further efficiency gains can be attained through economies of scale and outsourcing. I see VERY FEW of the similarities in education. First and foremost, there are certain efficiency gains that can NEVER be attained in education. For instance, HEATING/COOLING the building costs are ALWAYS going up. FOOD is always going up. Real estate is always going up. Maintenance is always up. It is pretty difficult to offshore teaching and janitorial services to get those gains that you can in manufacturing a digital camera. Fuel for buses is ALWAYS GOING UP.
So once again, how are we going to compare an item that is a commodity (and the price is always dropping) to and institution with FIXED COSTS that are ALWAYS RISING (fuel, food, energy, labor, supplies).
That doesn’t make ANY SENSE. Another example from the conservative playbook of false equivalency.
Aquagirl
February 21st, 2013
9:16 am
Barking, Finland is a part of the European Space Agency. Their GDP is nowhere near ours, but ragging their space program is like ragging Georgia’s.
I’d say Georgia could claim part of NASA’s accomplishment but the credit really belongs to Ga Tech.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
9:16 am
“For instance, HEATING/COOLING the building costs are ALWAYS going up.”
Not if the buildings are smaller due to less students using them.
“FOOD is always going up.”
Not if there are less students eating.
“Real estate is always going up.”
Seen market prices in the last 6 years, Deep Cover?
“Maintenance is always up.”
Congratulations. 1 out of 4 correct. Sadly, that is a failing grade even in public schools.
td
February 21st, 2013
9:16 am
Kyle,
If you mean choice and competition in the form of vouchers for all children then I agree with you and think it would improve the education process. If you mean choice is this Charter school amendment then we disagree. This Charter school amendment in Georgia did nothing to improve education for all. All this did was to let for profit companies come in and cherry pick the cream of the middle class crop (who will learn no matter what situation they are in because of parental involvement) and then abandon all the rest of the children into failing schools where there are NO parents left that will fight for change.
Horrible idea.
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
9:18 am
Deep Cover
Real estate is always going up.
That doesn’t make ANY SENSE.
………………………………..
especially since the housing collapse….
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
9:19 am
“This Charter school amendment in Georgia did nothing to improve education for all.”
Considering it hasn’t been implemented yet, that’s a pretty far-reaching statement even for you, td.
TRUTH
February 21st, 2013
9:20 am
Awww, the NEO-CONS and their penchant for “I got mine….” Most of US (that would be the working public…” attended PUBLIC SCHOOLS. Now for a quick lesson in socio-economics….I was a smart kid, as most of my friends were. We laugh about it today but what moved us to perform well, was the respect we had for our families and others. Unfortunately, over time (I graduated HS in the 70s and college in the early 80s) a little thing called “Reaganomics” came to past. I recall applying for jobs that eventually were eliminated. I recall being in Detroit for a summer job and the ENTIRE city was out of work. No jobs deterioates everything. To most kids our education system is overworked, fiscally stressed, and is not current with the markets for today. We all (us fuddy-duddy’s that is) knew then that if you had a HS diploma you could get employed and raise a family. Today, Kyle, with the lack of opportunities, employers behaving badly, low waages (stagnant or otherwise), and even less investment in the education system, schools that aren’t private suffers. In the end those young people are ill prepared to move forward, thusly, the country slips behind. Making private schools will make no difference. My analogy proves that. When i was in school, PUBLIC school, my parents paid $20 so I could play sports (covered physical, cleats, and banquet). Today, I know high schools charging anywhere from $300 – $750 for a student to participate i extrcurricular activities, school supplies, etc. not to mention teachers coming out of pocket to meet the needs of their classrooms. I call it for what it is…BS. Now you waant vouchers and all is going to be magically better. How exactly would a family of 4 on todays wages afford such a proposition, Kyle? Is it going to be divvied up like the Republican re-districting map? Will the vouchers extend to undocumented and minority enclaves as it would if you lived in, say North Dekalb or Morningside? Who’s to say that schools won’t revert to the very issue that is driving this crazy talk? How much would the voucher be for each child? Would their be a criteria? What about a child with special needs or an adult who needs to be retrained?
Vouchers sound like the Tea Party, shallow, distracting, and pure fiction.
Nice try, Kyle… you probably have better arguments, but this one falls short on specifics. I agree our schools must improve, but at what cost and I don’t mean in dollars and cents. Here’s an idea, pay teachers more. Upgrade the educational system and make colleges affordable. More importantly, offer training from companies and corporations in the tech schools to meet the demands of the market. Education, much like healthcare, is not exclusive to the rich. ALL AMERICANS DESERVE OPPORTUNITY. So much more to say here, but hopefully others will take these comments and run with it.
detritusUSA
February 21st, 2013
9:24 am
The puerile pundit hits a home run in twisted logic. Private schools don’t want the children of the unwashed masses, and neither do the parents who send their children there. They are called “private schools” for a reason and a purpose, and money has little to do with it.
td
February 21st, 2013
9:25 am
Tiberius – pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
9:19 am
Should have said “will do” instead of “did nothing”. With that said, we know from research the past effort at State level Charter schools that the test scores did not increase.
The main problem is that the Charter schools can not serve all the children so then the involved parents will pull their children out of the regular schools instead of doing the hard work of real change and leave the regular schools with the children of parents that do not care. These schools will fall further and further behind and how does that pull the entire state up?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
9:30 am
td, I would rather see a select few achieve excellence rather than dumb everyone down to a lower level.
JDW
February 21st, 2013
9:31 am
@Tiberius…”Forget where “government monies” come from originally, JDW?”
Nope if the government collects them, as they do and should they are responsible. It is not their job to act as a shill for private schools. It is their job to build and operate a world class education system and that is where their efforts should be directed.
Seems to me that YOU forget who should be accountable for tax dollars…hint it is not the local private school principal.
JDW
February 21st, 2013
9:34 am
@Tiberius…:And yet the kids coming out of high school are largely dumber than a sack of hammers.
They know how to take standardize tests, but don’t really know anything. Kinda like liberals in general.”
WOW more pontification from Tiberiusville with surprise surprise
not a shred of supporting documentation. ..The word of Tiberius…for the people of Tiberiusville.
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
9:35 am
JDW
It is their job to build and operate a world class education system and that is where their efforts should be directed.
………………………………………………………..
it’s been a couple of hundred years, how long is it going to take ?
JDW
February 21st, 2013
9:38 am
@Tiberius…”But FORCING me to give my tax money to an enterprise that fails to educate my kids properly is fine? Why can’t I just get back what I was forced to pay, and use it where I see fit?”
Why the Constitution of the Federal and State of your choice of course. It empowers the government to tax you…your redress is to elect someone different…not request a refund.
td
February 21st, 2013
9:38 am
Tiberius – pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
9:30 am
td, I would rather see a select few achieve excellence rather than dumb everyone down to a lower level.
Here is where we disagree my friend. I say that a child that has parents that set high expectation levels, are involved in their children’s matriculation and place checks on the schools will be successful in any environment. These children and their parents pull up all the children in a particular school and are always working to improve the schools. If you pull them out of regular public schools then yes they will be successful in their education process but you will be punishing them in the long run because their peers in the regular schools will be less educated then our peers today and will then be even more dependent on government for their day to day subsistence. Guess who will have to pay even more for these services in the future?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
9:39 am
“Seems to me that YOU forget who should be accountable for tax dollars…hint it is not the local private school principal.”
No, it’s the local school SYSTEM, JDW. What I am saying (and you as usual are missing) is that I shouldn’t be taxed for a failing product if I can find something better. It IS my money before government takes it, even if you don’t believe the reality of that fact.
See, JDW, YOUR solution is akin to forcing people to pay a car repair shop that doesn’t do the job right, while giving me the option to have my car repaired at the shop that will do the job right and pay there, too.
Simply put, no amount of other people’s money will satisfy you libs.
JDW
February 21st, 2013
9:39 am
ooops Federal Government
Dusty
February 21st, 2013
9:39 am
Well, I see we have started the day here with liberals calling Kyle “names”. Now that is not the way to start a discussion..
Kyle wants better schools. You disagree with that?
He presents what he thinks is a better way. Why don’t you do the same?
The fact is I don’t agree with Kyle either. Why? Because I think we need better education for TEACHERS. I have heard so often that ,,,if you can’t major in science or math, you can always get a degree in “education” or athletics. Let’s change that
HIgher requirements for the education of teachers.is a definite need. Teachers who do not like to teach should go right OUT along with the ones who cannot reach the minds of children.
Parents know who these teaches are and officials probably do too. I think we have the facilities that we need. Now let us get better teachers with alert parents that expect them to teach.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
9:40 am
And yet the kids coming out of high school are largely dumber than a sack of hammers.
As opposed to kids in the 50’s who were of course all rocket scientist upon graduation.\
Kids today in general are a lot better educated than 50 years ago.
That is part of the reason why they tend to be liberal and vote Democratic
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
9:41 am
I suspect JDW hasn’t interacted with a cross section of high school graduates in a looooong time.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
9:41 am
Kyle wants better schools. You disagree with that?
Yes when its my tax dollars paying for a trust fund baby to go to private school.
You want your kid in private school. Pay for it yourself moocher.
JDW
February 21st, 2013
9:41 am
@Barking Frog….”it’s been a couple of hundred years, how long is it going to take ”
Seems to me our country has done ok over the last couple of hundred years…my guess is we have done just fine…always need to get better but it is hard to argue with the results.
Cutty
February 21st, 2013
9:41 am
Must be hard carrying the water for this ’school choice’ scam. If competition is needed doe public school, why not mandate that charter and private schools adhere to the same oversight requirements related to funding? Why make it against the law to actually to find out where the money is coming and going?
Public funds used to send lilly white kids to private school is all this is. None of these exurban legislators at the dome care about black kids in NW or SE Atlanta. Hence, Kyle’s pitiful scribe about why this scam should be open to all kids. If they had really wanted to be transparent, the gold domers would’ve just said this up front.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
9:42 am
I suspect Cheesy is in the dark about high school graduates today as well.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
9:43 am
I suspect JDW hasn’t interacted with a cross section of high school graduates in a looooong time.
I suspect your an old man who doesn’t understand the younger generation.
Leave it to Beaver has been off the air for awhile now.
JDW
February 21st, 2013
9:45 am
@Tiberius….”I shouldn’t be taxed for a failing product if I can find something better”
Your basic failing is that you think you…just because it is you I suppose…should be exempt from the requirements of society.
Get over yourself.
You like everyone else is bound by the rules set forth in our way of government. Again your redress is to elect people that agree we should have an optional tax system…good luck with that…till then quit your whining and be part of the solution not the problem.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
9:47 am
Cheesy, I interact with ALL cross sections of society on a daily basis. As with every group, there are standouts, but by and large high schoolers today know how to take tests, but don’t really know anything else.
Perfect myrmidon liberals. Unable to think.
JDW
February 21st, 2013
9:47 am
@Tibeirus…”I suspect JDW hasn’t interacted with a cross section of high school graduates in a looooong time.”
As usual you would be WAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY wrong.
Aquagirl
February 21st, 2013
9:47 am
I shouldn’t be taxed for a failing product if I can find something better.
And there’s the MAH WALLET philosophy in a nutshell. “I don’t like the product, never mind I have elected representatives. Anyone else’s input is secondary to MEMEMEMEMEMEME.”
Your personal judgement on a government program is not grounds for withholding your taxes. That idea is distinctly and completely anti-Constitution.
All these professed Tea Partiers and Constitutionalists are typically narcissistic tightwads, who just can’t stand living in a Republic where they can’t make every single decision themselves.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
9:48 am
Here is the dirty little secret about all this.
If this program really helped poor kids as they so disingenuously claim.
Republicans wouldn’t be for it.
JF McNamara
February 21st, 2013
9:48 am
This was a tough, tough read of justification.
Most other states have a need based element and they seem to be doing just fine. The economist cooked up a scenario that had nothing to do with schools when he simply could have used schools. Why?
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
9:48 am
JDW
Seems to me our country has done ok over the last couple of hundred years…my guess is we have done just fine…always need to get better but it is hard to argue with the results.
………………………………………
but you said..
It is their job to build and operate a world class education system and that is where their efforts should be directed.
indicating
we do not have such a system….
JDW
February 21st, 2013
9:49 am
@Tiberius…”I interact with ALL cross sections of society on a daily basis”
“Would you like fries with that” is not interaction.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
9:50 am
“Again your redress is to elect people that agree we should have an optional tax system…good luck with that”
In case you missed it, electing people that agree with me got us the first significant blow to the public school stranglehold on our kids – the charter school amendment. I’m still working on the rest, and suspect I’ll be even more successful in the future.
And the solution is EXACTLY what I’m working on.
And it doesn’t include repeating the failings of the system you worship.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
9:52 am
I see that no lib on here will step up and debate this point:
“See, JDW, YOUR solution is akin to forcing people to pay a car repair shop that doesn’t do the job right, while giving me the option to have my car repaired at the shop that will do the job right and pay there, too.
Simply put, no amount of other people’s money will satisfy you libs.”
JDW obviously isn’t up to it. How about you, Cheesy? Aquagirl?
td
February 21st, 2013
9:54 am
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
9:41 am
Kyle wants better schools. You disagree with that?
Yes when its my tax dollars paying for a trust fund baby to go to private school.
You want your kid in private school. Pay for it yourself moocher.
Let us get serious. The children of the rich are NOT going to be going to Charter schools and no matter how much of a voucher is offered they will NOT be attending the voucher schools.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
9:55 am
“Your personal judgement on a government program is not grounds for withholding your taxes. That idea is distinctly and completely anti-Constitution. ”
First, I never stated your first sentence. You may not speak for me in ANY regard, Aquagirl.
Second, you are (with the exception of JDW and Cheesy), the LAST person to decide what is Constitutional. You’re not equipped to argue that point.
Tinkerella
February 21st, 2013
9:57 am
The way I see it, vouchers….or for that matter…free private school to all would still present a problem to those who don’t live around those high performing private schools even if they could get in. How are working parents going to get them there? It might work for a few families who can get their kids across town every day but for the average working two parent family, even with school choice the obstacles are still there. This isn’t going to solve much for very many students in my opinion. I can (barely) afford a private school for mine but I can’t get them there daily with both of us as parents working.
Hillbilly D
February 21st, 2013
9:57 am
As with every group, there are standouts, but by and large high schoolers today know how to take tests, but don’t really know anything else.
Over the years, I had a lot of people in the 18-22 range work for me. These people weren’t dumb by any means but they didn’t really know how to do anything because they’d never been taught.
It’s way past time to drop all the “flavor of the month” education theories and get back to stressing the basics. If a person can read, write and do basic math, they can learn to do most anything else, if they are so inclined. This needs to be stressed in the first 3-4 years. If a child is behind at age 8 or 9, odds are they are never going to catch up. Scrap the testing mania and get back to teaching.
As our friend Josef often says, there’s a difference in schooling and education.
A return to discipline is the first thing that is needed. As Daddy used to say, “Even if somebody is dumb as a rock, they can sit there and behave”.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
9:57 am
the LAST person to decide what is Constitutional. You’re not equipped to argue that point.
Neither are you.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
9:58 am
““Would you like fries with that” is not interaction.”
When you can’t debate, insult.
ND
February 21st, 2013
9:58 am
The idea that people only innovate and advance in technology when forced to do so by competition is one of the biggest capitalist fallacies and pretty clearly shows the disconnect between the mentality of people who are driven by money and people who are driven by self-fulfillment. Creative and innovative people innovate because they want to, not because other people force them to do so.
JDW
February 21st, 2013
9:58 am
@Barking Frog…”we do not have such a system”
Actually….we do…can it get better yes. Why don’t you do some reading…
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/01/why-gloomy-pundits-and-politicians-are-wrong-about-americas-education-system/267278/
Really cool new study from the Economic Policy Institute. Among other things it tells us….
“First, our most disadvantaged students have improved their math scores faster than most comparable countries. Second, our most advantaged students are world-class readers.”
But wait there is more…
“But by focusing on misleading national averages rather than apples-to-apples comparisons, U.S. education critics are missing lessons that could lead to good policy. The big takeaway is that we’re not doing as badly as the pundits are claiming,” Carnoy said. “Our advantaged kids are doing very well in reading, as well as anybody in the world, and in math, disadvantaged kids have improved more than almost any other country. We’re making progress, and we should be finding out why we’re making that progress, or identifying what appears to be working, rather than saying we should all run over to Finland. Don’t run to Finland if you want to learn about disadvantaged kids, because they’re going in the wrong direction.”
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
10:01 am
Cheesy, the difference is that I’ve not only read the Constitution, but understand the principles on which it was written through the writings of the people who formed this nation.
Sadly, you, JDW and Aquagirl have not.
Aquagirl
February 21st, 2013
10:03 am
JDW obviously isn’t up to it. How about you, Cheesy? Aquagirl?
Inability to debate insane tangents is no indication of our shortcomings.
Government services are not car repair shops. Duh. A car repair shop is there to make money, not insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, and promote the general welfare of all US citizens. A car repair shop operates nothing like fire or police services. They follow completely different rules.
Republicans sank so low into corporate worship they thought Mitt Romney was a good idea. I can’t think of any better indictment of this type of thinking. It’s sheer idiocy promoted by those who are apparently unable to read the US Constitution.
In short, I dunno how you get from government services to car repair shops, that’s your problem. I’m sorry your parents didn’t invest enough in your education.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
10:03 am
ND, do you work for a living? Because you likely wouldn’t have a job right now if it were not for competition.
Unless you work in government.
MANGLER
February 21st, 2013
10:05 am
Can the less affluent family that chooses to voucher their child to a private school count on that voucher to cover the entire tuition costs, like taxes do for public schools, or will they then be on the hook for the rest? What about transportation to the private school? Lunches?
If the less affluent will be on the hook to cover what the vouchers will not, then they are not going to be able to “choose” a more expensive private school. So who’s really going to be benefiting from this?
JDW
February 21st, 2013
10:07 am
@Tiberius…”When you can’t debate, insult.”
Cry me a river Mr. I can dish but oooooooooooo I am special so leave me alone.
Let’s have a look at some of your greatest debating lines…these are just from the last half hour or so.
“Pure, unadulterated hyperbolic nonsense”
Or
“Try reality sometime.”
Or
“They know how to take standardize tests, but don’t really know anything. Kinda like liberals in general.”
Or
“It was YOU who chose to put up the stupid conclusion ”
Or
“Simply put, no amount of other people’s money will satisfy you libs.”
Or
“Perfect myrmidon liberals. Unable to think.”
Or
“Second, you are (with the exception of JDW and Cheesy), the LAST person to decide what is Constitutional. You’re not equipped to argue that point.”
You want a debate…stop pontificating, bring evidence and realize that you are not in fact the final authority on the Constitution.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
10:07 am
“Government services are not car repair shops. Duh. A car repair shop is there to make money”
Another failing grade for Aquagirl.
A car repair shop is the there to provide a SERVICE, first and foremost. That the service might make money is a part of the equation, but you don’t make money without first providing the service. Think: Cause and Effect.
Schools are there to provide a service, just as the car repair shop.
But your inability to debate the point about paying for something bad and paying again for the same thing that is successful is noted.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
10:08 am
Cheesy, the difference is that I’ve not only read the Constitution, but understand the principles on which it was written through the writings of the people who formed this nation.
Reading words on a piece of paper means nothing if you cant comprehend them.
P.S. The founding fathers were all Liberals
Dusty
February 21st, 2013
10:09 am
Still with the name calling here! If you don’t like what your school is doing JOIN THE PTA or write your representative.
My children are out of that level of schooling now. But when they were there, I was there too when things got “rotten”.. When I found teachers as dumb as rocks, I went to the principal. When the principle said things like “When I had a cold I did not miss a day or leave school” referring to an asthma attack, I went beyond him. My children learned discipline at home but I never learned to accept poor teachers. Parents must take an active interest in their children’s scholarship.
That is what Kyle is doing. He wants better school for ALL children. Perhaps, you of little minds, might accept his invitation to discuss the subject instead of displaying your vocabulary of derogatory names & notions. . Act like adults!!
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
10:09 am
“You want a debate”
I’d love one.
Too bad you’re just not up to snuff in providing one, JDW.
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
10:10 am
JDW
@Barking Frog…”we do not have such a system”
…………………………………………….
I did not say that, you indicated that….
Your vast reading led you to extol the virtues of
the education system of Finland compared to the
US education system and I asked how the products
of Finnish education were doing in the space race but
I’m glad to see I have led you to extol the virtues of
the products of the US education system.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
10:10 am
“P.S. The founding fathers were all Liberals”
Dumbest post of the day, Cheesy – bar none.
And that’s saying something based on some of the earlier comments.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
10:13 am
Life is a sacrifice, Mangler.
Too many parents are unwilling to make them and take the easy way out.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
10:13 am
So who’s really going to be benefiting from this?
Upper middle class white suburban kids and their families.
All on your tax dollar.
Welcome to Georgia
ND
February 21st, 2013
10:14 am
ND, do you work for a living? Because you likely wouldn’t have a job right now if it were not for competition.
Can you read? I said nothing about jobs in my post. I was talking about innovation.
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
10:14 am
Dusty
That is what Kyle is doing. He wants better school for ALL children. Perhaps, you of little minds, might accept his invitation to discuss the subject instead of displaying your vocabulary of derogatory names & notions. . Act like adults!!
……………………………………………….
Can I get a spanking along with that ?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
10:15 am
And I was asking you if you had a job, ND.
Because new jobs (and some existing ones) come about or remain due to innovation, and innovation is the child of competition.
Unless you work for the government.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
10:16 am
barking frog
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
10:17 am
Dumbest post of the day, Cheesy – bar none.
Funny thing is its true. They were all Liberals and revolutionaries.
The Tories were your conservatives. Loyal to the King
http://www.politicususa.com/founding-fathers-liberal.html
Dusty
February 21st, 2013
10:17 am
Aquagirl,
Insane tangents are a problem but I like tangerines better anyway. (Just enrichng the discussion here.)
ND
February 21st, 2013
10:19 am
innovation is the child of competition
This is where you are wrong. Innovation is the child of necessity and creativity, not competition. Something Republicans have a very hard time understanding. The vast majority of scientific and technological advancements in human history had very little to do with competition or money.
Hillbilly D
February 21st, 2013
10:19 am
Liberal and conservative don’t mean today, what they meant in the latter part of the 18th century. Both words have lost all their meaning, as used today.
Aquagirl
February 21st, 2013
10:20 am
and realize that you are not in fact the final authority on the Constitution.
Good luck getting Tiberius to admit such a thing—the ego deflation would register on seismometers worldwide.
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
10:21 am
cheesy grits
Funny thing is its true. They were all Liberals and revolutionaries.
…………………………………………………………………………….
Yep. That’s why Washington and Jefferson worked so hard
to rid the country of slavery.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
10:22 am
Gee. A liberal website claiming the Founding Fathers were liberal.
Color me shocked.
Limited government is not a liberal idea.
Equality is not a liberal idea.
Just because they wanted change from an authoritarian rule doesn’t make the Founding Fathers liberal.
Which is proof positive you know nothing about our Founding Fathers, Cheesy.
Dusty
February 21st, 2013
10:23 am
barking frog,
No spankings today. I only have a ruler. Hold out your leg, Frog!!
JDW
February 21st, 2013
10:24 am
@Tiberuis…”Think: Cause and Effect.”
Maybe you should heed your advice…lets look…
Car shops fix your car…usually one person with technical limited training alone. Leave it this morning pick it up this afternoon.
Schools deliver knowledge compiled from multiple sources over 20+ years with extensive intermediate testing, in various settings, with multiple persons delivering content in a coordinated fashion after receiving 20 to 25 years of specialized training to prepare for the endeavor.
The business processes, value propositions, pricing structures, infrastructure requirements, regulatory environments etc… are about as alike as sending a man to the moon and an oil change.
Schools deliver knowledge compiled from multiple sources over 20+ years with extensive intermeidate testing, in various settings, with multiple persons delivering content in a coordinated fashion.
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
10:24 am
Holding out leg….
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
10:24 am
“Innovation is the child of necessity and creativity, not competition.”
Innovation is the child of ALL of the above, ND. You are mistaken in leaving out competition, simply because you don’t like it.
I suspect you work(ed) for the government.
Hillbilly D
February 21st, 2013
10:24 am
Hold out your leg, Frog!!
Which one should he hold out?
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
10:27 am
Hillbilly D
I’m on my back so she can choose…….
Real Athens
February 21st, 2013
10:27 am
“So the high test scores in 1950 produced with less government mean nothing to you, eh, jdw?”
“Contrary to what Republicans would have you believe, super-high tax rates on rich people do not appear to hurt the economy or make people lazy: During the 1950s and early 1960s, the top bracket income tax rate was over 90%–and the economy, middle-class, and stock market boomed.”
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/history-of-tax-rates-2012-5?op=1#ixzz2LY1Qk1yN
MarkV
February 21st, 2013
10:28 am
It is difficult to add something significant to what DeborahinAthens (@6:45 am) wrote so well. Perhaps just a follow up to Dusty’s post (@9:39 am) and her call for better teachers, which I heartily applaud. But I wonder how we can expect better teachers, when government spending cuts the conservatives like Kyle and Dusty demand result in firing of teachers. Who wants to become a teacher with such an uncertainty, when he/she can get a better job elsewhere?
Aquagirl
February 21st, 2013
10:28 am
Which one should he hold out?
How cruel can you be, going for a frog’s leg! That’s compassionate conservatism for ya.
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
10:29 am
Why are Democrats pro choice everywhere but education ?
JDW
February 21st, 2013
10:31 am
@Barking Frog….”I did not say that, you indicated that….”
I indicated nothing of the sort….I said “It is their (government) job to build and operate a world class education system and that is where their efforts should be directed.”
That is a description of responsibility not a an indication of performance.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
10:31 am
JDW, your 10:24 is a master of deflection.
20-25 years of specialized training? Really? We have Phys-Ed majors teaching science courses (badly). Business majors teaching history (badly). Most new teachers come right out of college with (maybe) 4 years of specialized training.
Your utopian school system doesn’t exist ANYWHERE, JDW.
Except in JDWville.
Commonscents
February 21st, 2013
10:32 am
Kyle’s agrument is ridiculous. Tax revenue should never go to private schools when teachers are getting laid off and supplies are limited in public schools. His argument is like cutting a program because it is not meeting it’s goals when the major problem with not meeting it’s goals is limited funding.
As DebinAthens stated, the only way anyone could actually believe in this is because of an agenda to destroy public education. And destroying public education will only push us further into a 3rd world country where the 1% get richer and the rest struggle. How is this a good thing for this country?
Dusty
February 21st, 2013
10:32 am
Hillbilly,
Don’t even tell us what liberal and conservative meant in the 18th century. It’s bad enough now without dragging up the old insults.
Besides, my ball & powder rifle is too rusty to use.. All worn out on “redcoat” raids.!!
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
10:32 am
Oh..Oh…Aquagirl knows I am here. She supposedly
carries a Trident but I think it is a frog gig and a big one
at that. Between her and Dusty I have ….fun.
ND
February 21st, 2013
10:32 am
Innovation is the child of ALL of the above, ND. You are mistaken in leaving out competition, simply because you don’t like it.
I suspect you work(ed) for the government.
You suspect incorrectly. Try viewing the world without your red-tinged prism sometime. Living under feudalistic monarchies didn’t stop Gutenberg from developing the printing press, Pasteur from developing pasteurization, and all kinds of scientists and inventors from India, China, Africa, the Arab world, etc. from coming up with inventions that laid the foundation for modern technology. Creative people don’t think like business people. Money and competition are not the only, or even most important, factors that motivate people.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
10:34 am
“It is difficult to add something significant to what DeborahinAthens (@6:45 am) wrote so well.”
That’s because it’s impossible to double down on such hyperbolic nonsense.
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
10:35 am
Dusty
Besides, my ball & powder rifle is too rusty to use..
……………………………………………….
Wow Dusty my gun is
also rusty…
Deep Cover
February 21st, 2013
10:35 am
Hmmm…now it’s time to respond to another ingnoramus…Tiberius…
The CONTROL period in the column compared the price of a digital camera in 2000 to a comparable offering of TODAY.
Heating/Cooling is HIGHER than it was in 2000.
Food prices ARE HIGHER than it was in 2000.
Real estate is HIGHER than it was in 2000 (remember, the bubble AND the burst are outside the convenient 6 year timeframe in which you try to make your rather WEAK argument).
MAINTENANCE costs are HIGHER than they were in 2000.
Sorry Tib…but it looks like I am batting 1.000.
Now, HOW ARE THERE “less” students using the services???…and what does that have to do with the faulty comparison to a digital camera?
But your argument still makes NO SENSE. Any purchasing/sourcing manager will tell you that you LOSE purchasing power and your UNIT COST will go up due to the elimination of VOLUME DISCOUNTS…so what the HELL are you trying to say???
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
10:36 am
ND, you’re arguing for argument’s sake right now.
JDW
February 21st, 2013
10:38 am
@Tiberius…”20-25 years of specialized training? Really? We have Phys-Ed majors teaching science courses (badly). Business majors teaching history (badly). Most new teachers come right out of college with (maybe) 4 years of specialized training.
That Phy-Ed major went through 16 years of primary/secondary education, 4 years of post-secondary work, many have an additional 2 years and a masters plus fulfilled the requirments for a teaching certificate.
That mechanic…may or may not have a high school diploma and has completed between 1-2 years of OJT in most cases.
As for the badly…part….there your go again…pontificating with no evidence.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 21st, 2013
10:41 am
In case it’s been a while since you took Econ 101: When demand rises, supply increases to meet it.
LOL, from the guy who normally claims “When Supply rises, demand increases to meet it.”
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
10:42 am
Deep Cover, nice load of nonsense.
Try comparing apple to apples next time.
Heating and cooling might be higher in real dollars, but if you had built smaller buildings due to smaller student populations, the cost would be lower overall.
Same for food if you’re feeding less students.
And since I completely destroyed your real estate price argument, no need to re-hash that. They are NOT always higher.
So you’re still 1 for 4, and still failing.
Aquagirl
February 21st, 2013
10:43 am
ND, you’re arguing for argument’s sake right now.
The Constitution Master has spoken, y’all! It’s ovah!
I’m just glad Tiberius is here to ’splain the Constitution to us when he could be out collecting his voucher for police and fire services.
breckenridge
February 21st, 2013
10:43 am
I’ve had reservations about this voucher plan from the beginning because in some states it has been used to funnel money to religious schools. If we’re to allow vouchers to be used at religious schools, specifically those with a fundamentalist bent, in order to get my approval there must be some instruction before kids are sent to these schools. We must teach them two things; 1) the idea that the Bible is word-for-word true is complete nonsense and 2) the belief that only born-again Christians can go to heaven is complete idiocy, and those that believe such garbage should be ridiculed at every opportunity.
Hillbilly D
February 21st, 2013
10:44 am
That mechanic…may or may not have a high school diploma and has completed between 1-2 years of OJT in most cases.
That hasn’t been the case in a good many years.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 21st, 2013
10:47 am
This is Kyle’s call to let middle and upper class families use tax dollars to help supplement their payments to private schools.
We pointed out before the election that it would come to this.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
10:49 am
“That Phy-Ed major went through 16 years of primary/secondary education, 4 years of post-secondary work, many have an additional 2 years and a masters plus fulfilled the requirments for a teaching certificate.”
Only in JDWville.
The first 12 were in systems that dumbed down to the lowest denominator, JDW. The next 4 might have been in a college curriculum that mattered to the eventual choice of subject they ended up teaching, and few have additional education beyond that.
But let’s take that generalist of 12 years, throw them into a specific course of instruction of their choice for 4 more years, then bring them on board to teach a subject they didn’t specialize in because they earned a government-issued certificate.
That’s the cold, hard reality of all too many of our teachers these days, JDW.
Not your fantasy world.
Dusty
February 21st, 2013
10:49 am
barking frog
Bad frog! Say “ribbit” you rascal! Or croak!!
———
MarkV,
Teachers are not the only ones facing hard times. With the president’s propensity for spending,, I suggest we ask teachers to learn Chinese for future use. You know. BE PREPARED!
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
10:50 am
“I’m just glad Tiberius is here to ’splain the Constitution to us when he could be out collecting his voucher for police and fire services.”
When you can’t debate, create an alternate reality.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 21st, 2013
10:53 am
The first 12 were in systems that dumbed down to the lowest denominator,
The public system isn’t there to create geniuses, it’s there to make sure the majority of our population can read, write, function and participate in our society in a positive way.
What you accomplish beyond that is great but that is a step beyond the goal of what the public education system is set to accomplish.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
10:54 am
Now it’s off to do my private sector part in spurring our economy.
I’d ask the libs on here to tone down their hyperbolic and bigoted comments, but then they’d have nothing to post.
Aquagirl
February 21st, 2013
10:55 am
When you can’t debate, create an alternate reality
You’re running from the implication, I don’t blame you. So I’ll re-state it and watch the squirm:
Why does your self-appointment as Emperor stop at school services? If you don’t like your local fire department, why shouldn’t you get a voucher for your own private fire service too?
Dusty
February 21st, 2013
10:56 am
FINN
Democrats said very little about taxes before the election. All I heard was “Free! Free! It will all be free!!” and the crowd said “Yes! Yes! and I”ll VOTE for thee!” And so they did.
Dusty
February 21st, 2013
10:58 am
Aquagirl,
Where do you apply for private fire service? My feet are cold.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 21st, 2013
10:58 am
The crap Kyle and proponents are trying to sell is a means to pull taxes that finance the public schools we do have out of that system. This defeats the goals of the system.
The end game for them is that their kids get to go to private schools for less money. With less money going to the normal school systems we are moving toward a dumbing down of our society as a whole. What we will end up with are fewer people who can read, write, do basic math, and participate in our society in a positive way.
But hey, at least they saved a few bucks on their private schools which keeps their children safely insulated away from the minorities.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 21st, 2013
11:00 am
All I heard was “Free! Free! It will all be free!!”
Dusty, this is what you heard on Fox News and from other conservatives. Or, maybe you can show me a link to where a Democrat was actually promising free stuff?
That “free stuff” was completely a fabrication of the vaunted Conservative media game.
Dusty
February 21st, 2013
11:05 am
Finn
I must get this straight since i live in Atlanta. What minority children are we trying to insulate? Black White or Hispanic?
You obviously have some kind of point you wish to throw on the fire. Would you make it clearer so we all understand?
JDW
February 21st, 2013
11:07 am
@Tiberius…”That’s the cold, hard reality of all too many of our teachers these days”
The hard cold reality is that you are living a fantasy. By in large our teachers are well trained and well qualified.
What they don’t have, as does most every job in successful corporate America, is an ability to analyze their performance and improve their results. No one that starts any job of any kind comes out of school prepared. There must be a process by which people are onboarded, gain skill competency and then progress to mastery. This is a process that takes years in most cases.
Go over and take a look at the Gates Foundation’s educational programs and thoughts and maybe you will begin to understand because you clearly don’t…oooops my bad what the he!! does Gates know about building a successful organization YOU are the expert and so much more successful than that hack.
MarkV
February 21st, 2013
11:07 am
Dusty @10:49 am
“With the president’s propensity for spending,, I suggest we ask teachers to learn Chinese for future use. You know. BE PREPARED!”
Dusty,
You must have missed the news that the bogeyman – China – is facing economic bubble burst and recession.
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
February 21st, 2013
11:09 am
They were all Liberals and revolutionaries.
And secessionists as well. None of them were big on democracy either.
“Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself” John Adams
Adams must have had a premonition about Barry Obama.
Steve
February 21st, 2013
11:10 am
All of this blah blah blah heresay and opinion.
LOOK TO WHAT IS WORKING IN THE TOP SCHOOL SYSTEMS IN THE WORLD: FINLAND. They are doing it right. Are we too proud to implement change here utilizing the success of others? Reinventing the wheel is stupid, people.
But …they are evil socialists, so I guess that won’t fly in Confederate Tea Party circles.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 21st, 2013
11:18 am
Finn, I must get this straight since i live in Atlanta. What minority children are we trying to insulate? Black White or Hispanic?
Maybe try rereading the sentence I wrote first? There is a “from ” in there.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
11:18 am
“Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself” John Adams
Adams must have had a premonition about Barry Obama.
Or the Reagan Administration.
When our debt tripled in 8 years.
MarkV
February 21st, 2013
11:20 am
Dusty @10:49 am
Isn’t it wonderful when Dusty, the socialism-fighter, keeps warning us of the economic danger from one of the few socialist countries in the world?
Thulsa Doom
February 21st, 2013
11:20 am
Kyle is trying to teach basic economics to the liberals? Good luck with that.
For the liberals this isn’t about freedom or choice. They don’t give a hoot about either- cept when it comes to abortion.
For the libs this is about one thing- CONTROL. Control of their masses and keeping them ignorant so that they keep voting Dem based on silly slogans like “change you can believe in”. That’s what its really about.
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
February 21st, 2013
11:21 am
barking frog
Why are Democrats pro choice everywhere but education ?
Incorrect, as I stated on page 1, the only place they are pro choice is in maternal choices, everywhere else their choice is Gov control. Name one place they are pro choice otherwise.
Education
Saving for your own retirement
Picking your own insurance
buying the light bulb you prefer
buying the toilet you would like
on and on
They always want government control of every decision.
Dusty
February 21st, 2013
11:25 am
Finn,
Bless your heart. I don’t listen to radio unless I’m stuck in a car somewhere. TV, only a little while at night. I like to read.
Are you trying to tell me that Obama never made any promises that the good times would roll if he were president? Huh? There are more way to say FREE than saying one word. He knows them all. Try “stimulus” for a start. I think you were just as susceptible as the rest of the Democrats.
Thulsa Doom
February 21st, 2013
11:25 am
Steve,
Finland is a poor example because its a very small country population wise, its largely homogenous, and therefore they share the same cultural values and expectations regarding education. It would be like comparing a public school in a wealthy lilly white upper class neighborhood with every other school. Try again.
Politico
February 21st, 2013
11:26 am
“Perfect myrmidon liberals. Unable to think.”
“When you can’t debate, insult.”
Post from the same blogger. Oh the irony………..
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
February 21st, 2013
11:28 am
Steve
Finland like Japan and China are not multicultural like the USA. Their culture is totally different from much of ours. It is apparently easier to educate children when they all have the same backgrounds, values, and early emphasis on education. Some cultures value education more than others, so you are not using a valid comparison. In a socialistic country the income levels of the parents are more consistent than in the USA. Plus, the much smaller population makes things more intimate and allows parents and teachers more mutual exposure. An apples to rutabaga comparison, I would say.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
11:29 am
Kyle is trying to teach basic economics to the liberals? Good luck with that.
For the liberals this isn’t about freedom or choice. They don’t give a hoot about either- cept when it comes to abortion.
For the libs this is about one thing- CONTROL.
Strawman
Dusty
February 21st, 2013
11:29 am
Dear MarkV
I only choose the socialist countries to whom we owe the most money. Currently that is China.
I do like Chinese noodles. Do you think that is a strong influence?.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
11:30 am
Finland is a poor example because its a very small country population wise, its largely homogenous, and therefore they share the same cultural values and expectations regarding education. It would be like comparing a public school in a wealthy lilly white upper class neighborhood with every other school. Try again.
In other words I dont like what the data says so ill spin it.
Thulsa Doom
February 21st, 2013
11:30 am
“That “free stuff” was completely a fabrication of the vaunted Conservative media game.”
Finn,
So what you’re saying is that the attempt through Obamacare to move millions more onto expanded Medicaid rolls isn’t giving away a lot of “free” stuff as in virtually free health care?
And of course adding millions more to the food stamp rolls doesn’t constitute more “free” stuff being given away either does it? Geez.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
11:32 am
barking frog
Why are Democrats pro choice everywhere but education ?
You can go to any school you want.
JUST PAY FOR IT YOURSELF MOOCHER
Aquagirl
February 21st, 2013
11:34 am
Where do you apply for private fire service? My feet are cold.
I’m sure there’s a phone number for some “fireman” to talk about your feet, google and have your credit card ready.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 21st, 2013
11:35 am
Why are Democrats pro choice everywhere but education ?
Wrong again. You have choice – free choice. You can send your kid to the locally available school or you can pay to send them somewhere else.
See, you Cons don’t even understand basic concepts like “choice” – that’s why we don’t trust you when you start throwing the word around.
MarkV
February 21st, 2013
11:36 am
Dusty @ 11:29 am
“I do like Chinese noodles. Do you think that is a strong influence?”
It might have something to do with it. How was the salmon yesterday? Better luck than with Cornish hens?
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 21st, 2013
11:37 am
Finn, So what you’re saying is…
No one said it would be free, Thulsa.
Dusty
February 21st, 2013
11:38 am
Now Steve, that’s getting touchy! CONFEDERATE TEA PARTY CIRCLES??
Gee, I haven’t been to a tea party in years. Would you mind inviting me the next time you head for the tea and crumpets? I like tea even better than Mint juleps on the verander. Ahhhhh
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
February 21st, 2013
11:42 am
JUST PAY FOR IT YOURSELF MOOCHER
Thru my taxes I have already paid for it once. I have no school age children, but a true democratic country you libs always tout, when public opinion is in your favor, the money would go to whatever school you choose. But since we are not a democracy, we need to elect representatives to change the law.
Cheesy, I finally was able to think of one other area where Dems are pro choice, beside abortion.
Dems are pro choice on voting, if you are not registered or not eligible to vote. In fact, they encourage you to vote and vote as many times as you would like.
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
11:43 am
rafe Hollister
let me defend my snarky comment….
barking frog
Why are Democrats pro choice everywhere but education ?
Incorrect, as I stated on page 1, the only place they are pro choice is in maternal choices, everywhere else their choice is Gov control. Name one place they are pro choice otherwise.
Education—I think I can ignore this as I have conceded the point
Saving for your own retirement——–you can have others but you must have SS
Picking your own insurance—no limit of choice here except you must have health ins.
buying the light bulb you prefer—they have eliminated one type bulb
buying the toilet you would like—too many choices to count here
on and on
They always want government control of every decision, relating to public safety.(fixed)
Politico
February 21st, 2013
11:45 am
Rafe
Are you ok with single folks who are homeowners not to pay any taxes that go to schools?
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
11:47 am
Dems are pro choice on voting, if you are not registered or not eligible to vote. In fact, they encourage you to vote and vote as many times as you would like.
Strawman. Total BS
Thulsa Doom
February 21st, 2013
11:47 am
“In other words I dont like what the data says so ill spin it.”
No. In other words you’re cherry picking your data and then comparing apples and oranges. Did you really think we wouldn’t see through your silly little ruse?
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
11:48 am
let me defend my snarky comment the other way…
Finn McCool
Why are Democrats pro choice everywhere but education ?
Wrong again. You have choice – free choice. You can send your kid to the locally available school or you can pay to send them somewhere else.
———————————————————————-
Free choice for the wealthy is not free choice.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
11:48 am
Did you really think we wouldn’t see through your silly little ruse?
Something about not seeing the forest for the trees.
Some of this stuff is over your head. Isn’t it about your nap time.
Thulsa Doom
February 21st, 2013
11:48 am
“COST”- The ugly word never to be uttered in polite liberal society.
Dusty
February 21st, 2013
11:48 am
MarkV
I certainly do have a predilection for Chinese noodles, not to mention Sweet & Sour dishes.. . The salmon was delightful. I did not burn them in the microwave. Maybe I should send some to the Chinese for their inflation…
The cornish hens…Alas! I ;made them into little bitty sandwiches. A sad fate but tasty..
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 21st, 2013
11:49 am
Enter your comments hereWhat this boils down to is basic human greed.
We all pay taxes to support a system we can live under as a society. The proponents of this are just being greedy and saying “We don’t to pay taxes that go to benefit the general good our country; we only want our tax dollars to go to things that will benefit me and my kids.”
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
February 21st, 2013
11:50 am
The wealthiest of the wealthy have an obligation to help out……..blah, blah…. (BHO)
So, “help out” is one of those code words for “free”. If you have two cows, “help out” your neighbor and give one to him. Neighbor gets cow and no one said “free” , it was just a result of his government imposed “obligation”.
Thulsa Doom
February 21st, 2013
11:50 am
Cheesy,
As someone who has an economics degree I can assure you that its you who is in over your head and not me. I’ve forgotten more economics in a nanosecond then you’ll learn in a lifetime.
md
February 21st, 2013
11:52 am
I’m not one to pile on teachers because I think most do a great job in a thankless profession, too often demonized as the problem when that is not the case.
The problem is the student and by extension the parent. A teacher can not force a child to want to learn, that must come from within.
As a parent that was very involved with all my “students”, they all did not have the same desire to learn, or had a greater preference to learn things that were not taught in school
.
And yes, it boils down to choices……and the kids have to still make the proper ones.
Thulsa Doom
February 21st, 2013
11:53 am
The wealthiest of the wealthy have an obligation to help out……..blah, blah…. (BHO)
Rafe,
You can add the wealthy paying their “fair share” to that also with the implication that if the wealthy pay their “fair share” others get more free stuff.
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
11:53 am
Cheesy grits
You can go to any school you want.
JUST PAY FOR IT YOURSELF MOOCHER
…………………………………………………………….
Due to my service to my country that allows you to
live in luxury and attend my schools…I will… with your tax dollar and mine.
Buzzy
February 21st, 2013
11:54 am
The elite leaders of the Republican Party could care less about the education of children. They care about one thing and that’s money.
The ultimate goal of their various “schooling plans” boils down to firing teachers with good pay and benefits who spend money in their communities, and replacing them with “technology” which can be beamed in from another location (just like Wal mart whisks money out of local communities).
The Republicans love government money…but they want it steered into fewer pockets.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
11:54 am
As someone who has an economics degree I can assure you that its you who is in over your head and not me. I’ve forgotten more economics in a nanosecond then you’ll learn in a lifetime.
Ill believe that when pigs fly.
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
February 21st, 2013
11:55 am
“We don’t to pay taxes that go to benefit the general good our country
Crappola, the money goes to educate one child, which is the purpose of collecting the money in the first place. One child removed from a government school is one child less they have to spend their revenue on. Everyone would have the same opportunity to designate where their child receives his/her education.
You could still force people without children to contribute to the government schools, and most people paying in have no children, so the public schools would get most of the money. Just make adjustments to free people from having to pay twice for their childs education.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
11:55 am
Due to my service to my country that allows you to
live in luxury and attend my schools…I will… with your tax dollar and mine.
Moocher
Thulsa Doom
February 21st, 2013
11:56 am
“The problem is the student and by extension the parent.”
The biggest problem that I see and that my sister in law teacher sees is the culture that some kids come from where there is no reading material or literature in the house, the parent doesn’t read to the kids, the kids spend most of their time watching tv, and the parent usually just doesn’t give much of a hoot about their kid’s education. No father in the house doesn’t help either. That’s quite a tough obstacle for them to overcome.
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
11:57 am
Cheesy grits 11:55
don’t take it personal, i’m just smarter than you are….
Thulsa Doom
February 21st, 2013
11:59 am
“Ill believe that when pigs fly.”
You don’t have to believe it cheesy. Its evidenced everyday in your posts by your clear lack of critical thinking skills, your poor understanding of statistical analysis, and your rather meager understanding of economic issues. But thanks for playing.
bman.
February 21st, 2013
11:59 am
Just set up videoconferencing for the students. Anything else need solving today?
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
11:59 am
don’t take it personal, i’m just smarter than you are….
Not
Even
Close
Bruno
February 21st, 2013
12:00 pm
No comment on the current topic, but did want to congratulate Kyle on slowly building his audience here. Glad to see my buddy barking frog hanging around. Or is he just looking for a few flies to zap with his tongue??
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
12:02 pm
You don’t have to believe it cheesy
And I dont.
Most of your posts are what I would expect of a high school dropout.
md
February 21st, 2013
12:04 pm
“So what you’re saying is that the attempt through Obamacare to move millions more onto expanded Medicaid rolls isn’t giving away a lot of “free” stuff as in virtually free health care?”
Not to mention the subsidies……..one can choose to be a gang banging thug and terrorize society and now we get to buy his insurance and insure he gets his preventative care that all these bleeding hearts are so worried about……….
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 21st, 2013
12:04 pm
The proponent’s goal is to starve the system so that me and my family, which is already eating pretty high on the hog, can eat even higher on the hog.
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
12:04 pm
Bruno
Or is he just looking for a few flies to zap with his tongue??
…………………………………………………
my search is ended…..
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 21st, 2013
12:05 pm
be a gang banging thug and terrorize society
ie, black people
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
12:05 pm
……..one can choose to be a gang banging thug
In other words black.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
12:06 pm
Great minds Finn
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
February 21st, 2013
12:07 pm
Are you ok with single folks who are homeowners not to pay any taxes that go to schools?
Politico, In a utopian world probably yes, but we are so broke in America, I don’t think we could get by with that and educate our children. I think there are more elderly people, who have already paid for their children’s education that have to keep paying, than childless people. Single people in modern America spawn as well.
This is one of the few wealth transfers from the old to the young, that we probably need more of. My rant yesterday was about poor minimum wage earners having to contribute to social security, so some blue haired rich widow, can trade Cadillacs or take a cruise, or go to a day spa.
The young in Obama’s America today are truly needy in many cases.
Dusty
February 21st, 2013
12:07 pm
Oh dear, Buzzy said that conservatives care about nothing but MONEY!
Honey, I only work for the great pleasure which it bestows on my humble abode and the taxes which support the humble unworkable citizens and the humongous pleasure I get by sending it to our thrifty Washington wonder wonkers. Now does that sound like I only like MONEY?
Hmmmm come to think of it. May be! You don’t like money? Sleep under a bridge?
Skip
February 21st, 2013
12:08 pm
SO Tulsa has a degree in Home Economics. What’s the big deal?
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
12:09 pm
cheesy grits
Great minds Finn
………………………………………………
again you make my point, i’m just smarter than you are.
nothing personal
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
12:10 pm
SO Tulsa has a degree in Home Economics. What’s the big deal?
Her cookies are delicious. Especially the Snicker Doodles.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 21st, 2013
12:10 pm
Thulsa learned to iron shirts with his Home Ec degree?
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
12:10 pm
again you make my point, i’m just smarter than you are.
nothing personal
trust me none taken
Bruno
February 21st, 2013
12:10 pm
They keep playing the Star Spangled Banner every day on the radio station we listen to at work at noon, using different artists.
IMO, this is the best performance I ever saw:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXiCVtPiMsM
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 21st, 2013
12:11 pm
Are you ok with single folks who are homeowners not to pay any taxes that go to schools?
No, even people with no children benefit from an educated population. For example, if you make stuff, you need educated people who can hold jobs, earn income, and afford to buy your stuff.
Thulsa Doom
February 21st, 2013
12:12 pm
Bruno,
He’s building his audience because most of the conversation somewhere else is just tripe. Gets nasty too in the echo chamber. I would rather see the conversation over here continue on the subject and actually discuss the topic but even then it degenerates into snarkiness as you can see. I’m out for awhile to get some work and some quotes done. I’ll check in later to see if its actually back on topic.
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
12:12 pm
well, the folks so concerned about defaulting on the Chinese
debt are perfectly willing to default on an insurance contract
with some old lady….just throw her off a cliff…
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 21st, 2013
12:13 pm
Bruno, you saw that performance on the radio? I usually hear performances on my radios, I rarely see them.
indigo
February 21st, 2013
12:16 pm
Georgia Republican politicians are not “interested in education”. They are interested in providing their fundamentalist electorate schools that emphasize creationism, Bible study and anti-science thinking.
Republicans in Georgia decided, some time ago, to mainly appeal to the lowest common convervative denominator.
Obama’s re-election has not deterred this way of thinking in the slightest.
Thulsa Doom
February 21st, 2013
12:17 pm
Finn,
I learned supply and demand and quite a bit about labor economics. You and cheesy still seem to be stuck on your dusty Karl Marx books. I’ll be back later to check and see if either of you actually has something of merit or substance to make your points. So far today neither of you have. But then why should today be any different from any other day? Toodles.
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
12:17 pm
Thulsa Doom …..has left the building.
indigo
February 21st, 2013
12:20 pm
Skip, Cheesy
I’m sure Doom does have an economics degree.
She got it from home at one of those internet diploma mills.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 21st, 2013
12:21 pm
Thulsa Doom …..has left the building.
His mom made him get up and clean his room.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
12:21 pm
Thulsa Doom …..has left the building.
I’m sure he is out to give an Economics seminar somewhere
What a joke.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 21st, 2013
12:22 pm
At any time during 2012, did you have a financial interest in or signature authority over a financial account (such as a bank account, securities account, or brokerage account) located in a foreign country? See instructions ……………………
Since I’m not a dummycrat or a liar, I got to check the NO box.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
12:23 pm
She got it from home at one of those internet diploma mills.
That is what I figured as well. Sticking 300 bucks in an envelope and mailing it to the University of Bahamas Online doesn’t mean you know anything about economics.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 21st, 2013
12:23 pm
Wait a minute, dummycrat and liar is one in the same, so I doubled up @12:22. Sorry bout that.
Aquagirl
February 21st, 2013
12:24 pm
You could still force people without children to contribute to the government schools, and most people paying in have no children, so the public schools would get most of the money. Just make adjustments to free people from having to pay twice for their childs education.
People with kids in school have an equal voice in how their tax dollars for education are spent, that’s where they get their choice, just the same as every other taxpayer. People with school age children are not paying for their child’s education through taxes. They’re paying the same tax as everyone else, 20 kids or none.
What you want is subsidized choice—using other people’s tax money while removing their say about how THEIR money is spent.
The issue is not choice and small gub’mint and all this fake tea potty crap, it’s taxation without representation.
Demanding other people’s money without their collective input is completely at odds with our entire system of government. It’s selfish and greedy, and conservatives shame themselves with their pseudo-liberty babble trying to cover this trash.
Dusty
February 21st, 2013
12:26 pm
Well, I’m heading for greener pastures. BARKING FROG has gone to throwing old ladies off the cliff.
Who knows whom is next or next is whom??? Bruno will have to stitch us all back together.
It is all your fault, B F!!!
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 21st, 2013
12:26 pm
Bruno -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uM8HqxNRsA
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
12:27 pm
Sorry bout that.
No problem. your posts aren’t taken seriously anyway.
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
12:29 pm
Dusty
It is all your fault, B F!!!
…………………………………..
just a little frog on a blog at the bottom of the ajc
who’d a thunk it ……ribbit…
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
12:33 pm
Aquagirl
it’s taxation without representation.
………………………………………………
you might have a point if this was not being done by
elected representatives…..
Dusty
February 21st, 2013
12:34 pm
Wait a minute here. Dusty does not own any Karl Marx books as reported by Thulsa. No Dusty Karl Marx books.
Maybe MarkV might have a few He knows about Karl & all those fellows.
Bye now…. .
JDW
February 21st, 2013
12:43 pm
@Barking Frog…..”Free choice for the wealthy is not free choice.”
Interesting…why do you think that should apply to schools and not health care?
bman.
February 21st, 2013
12:43 pm
Why does it take so long for a post to appear on this blog?
clem
February 21st, 2013
12:50 pm
recent numbers on wealth disparity increasing. the top 1% got 103% of income from 2008-2010 meaning everyone else got less on the average. so much for jobs and trickle down.
Steve
February 21st, 2013
12:54 pm
I don’t have kids but gladly pay taxes so kids are off the streets and in schools, even if most are pretty lousy in the South. Where I grew up in the northeast, we actually paid more in property taxes than we do down here – yep, we did. And we had streets with fewer potholes, nice sidewalks, nice parks and libraries, ample police, and yep – some of the best public schools in the nation.
Steve
February 21st, 2013
12:55 pm
Again- why isn’t anyone looking at Finland, Japan, and other nations that have public schools that are better than most of our private ones (for children)? Scared to admit that we suck?
md
February 21st, 2013
12:58 pm
“ie, black people”
“In other words black.”
Speak for yourselves guys……I grew up in a “white” crack neighborhood, so you can play your race cards elsewhere……..
md
February 21st, 2013
1:06 pm
And yes, sadly your two minds think alike……more like not at all.
Aquagirl
February 21st, 2013
1:12 pm
you might have a point if this was not being done by elected representatives…..
The spending certainly isn’t—it’s very specifically removed from their horrid gub’mint hands. There’s not even a sham board with Nathan Deal’s friends who are technically responsible, like the Arthur Blank boondoggle.
Frankly there’s more oversight for a taxpayer when their property is seized by eminent domain for “economic development” and then handed to a developer. Are you a fan of that expansion of government power?
md
February 21st, 2013
1:14 pm
“recent numbers on wealth disparity increasing. the top 1% got 103% of income from 2008-2010 meaning everyone else got less on the average. so much for jobs and trickle down.”
Do you realize you got played when you post stuff like that? The propaganda guys are laughing at folks like you…….
Now, ask yourself if wealth is restricted to this country and then go do some research vs letting the prop people rule your life…….
MANGLER
February 21st, 2013
1:36 pm
Tiberius,
Hello. Your post about life being a sacrifice and parents taking the easy way out is troublesome. You’re implying that public school is the easy way out and only for lazy parents to send their children to. It’s mindsets like THAT which have led to the complete gutting of public education, and many other public services that get primary finding through tax revenue. Public school was created so that everyone gets an education, not just those who can afford one. Not everyone of means worked hard their entire lives to have those means, and not everyone who lacks means was lazy and apathetic. There are just as many “takers” in the upper eschelans of society as in the lower.
SeeLow
February 21st, 2013
1:37 pm
It’s amazing that liberals are so opposed to competition when their entire existence is centered around “competing” for access to other people’s money.
Politico
February 21st, 2013
1:40 pm
“Do you realize you got played when you post stuff like that? The propaganda guys are laughing at folks like you…….”
Seeing you were the one who posted that Allen West bs right after the election, you wold surely know about being “played”
md
February 21st, 2013
1:43 pm
“Seeing you were the one who posted that Allen West bs right after the election, you wold surely know about being “played””
And if you did any research you would know that the vote totals still don’t add up down there……..but I’m guessing you don’t want to look into it as it would mess up your “fun”. Oh well……
Reality
February 21st, 2013
1:44 pm
Kyle – You are so wrong with so many things, where do I start.
First of all, your inital premise is wrong. You say, “The goal of anyone interested in education should be to see that all children attend quality schools.”
Let me set you straight. The goal of PUBLIC EDUCATION is to ensure an adequate (meaning a minimum level) education is provided free of charge to everyone. That’s it. It is that simple. It is NOT to ensure that your little Sally can go to what her mother feels is the ‘best’ school. This is written into law – check it for yourself.
You and the idiots that like school vouchers or school choice are so backwards thinking, you cannot even get this point through your skulls. Our tax dollars were NEVER intended to be distributed to any adult that chose to breed to send their offspring to some super expensive private school. You guys have it all twisted.
In order to follow the law, public school systems set up neighborhood schools to provide this adequate and free education.
If YOUR neighborhood public school cannot provide an adequate education, then there are legal and proper steps already in place to follow.
Now, if YOU want your child to have a superior education, then you may choose to pay out-of-your pocket and send your offspring to some private school that you feel can provide it. THAT is your choice!
md
February 21st, 2013
1:47 pm
Here, you can start with this:
“Gertrude Walker, the St. Lucie elections supervisor, has acknowledged errors in counting ballots, saying there was an initial error in feeding memory cards from voting machines through the vote-counting system. At a press conference last week, Walker said her office had acted in “haste” to make public results on Nov. 6 and that “mistakes were made.””
JDW
February 21st, 2013
2:08 pm
@md…”And if you did any research you would know that the vote totals still don’t add up down there”
Yeah I am guessing that is why he conceded…he has a case.
Mr_B
February 21st, 2013
2:10 pm
The rest of us understand the public schools need more competition. More competition would not only mean new, better options for families. It would compel public schools to improve themselves, too.
Substitute “fire department” for “public schools” and see how much sense this statement makes.
Aquagirl
February 21st, 2013
2:11 pm
Y’all should be over at the Get Schooled blog, Maureen’s account of the Dekalb board roast is far more entertaining than mutterings about Allen West’s un-election.
Nothing against ya md, but Sarah Copelin-Wood has you totally whooped in the crazy department.
indigo
February 21st, 2013
2:12 pm
Aesop
I’ve given you many proofs of evolution.
Now, it’s time for YOU to give scientific evidence for creationism.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
2:16 pm
“Gertrude Walker, the St. Lucie elections supervisor, has acknowledged errors in counting ballots, saying there was an initial error in feeding memory cards from voting machines through the vote-counting system. At a press conference last week, Walker said her office had acted in “haste” to make public results on Nov. 6 and that “mistakes were made.””
And as we all know the entire election turned on this.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
2:20 pm
Now, it’s time for YOU to give scientific evidence for creationism.
That is a hot one. Let me get my popcorn.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 21st, 2013
2:22 pm
More competition would not only mean new, better options for families.
You have an option now. Send your kid to Private School.
Just pay for it yourself moocher.
Savannah Paul
February 21st, 2013
2:33 pm
Comparing schools with digital cameras is an apples to oranges exercise. In schools the commodity is children and some children are of considerably more interest to “buyers” than others so through bogus tax credit schemes and voucher plans those children get bought up. The less desirable children get left to the public school system. Less desirable cameras that dont get purchased end up on overstock.com or get disposed of. The public school system doesnt have the same option.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 21st, 2013
2:37 pm
cheeeeeeeeeeesy, dupree just gave you up -
Virginia $7,810,211,096
Maryland $4,246,163,841
Alabama $2,174,475,440
Georgia $2,400,446,142
Florida $2,190,390,094
North Carolina $1,429,023,635
Nobody gets the federal defense spending more than the deep southern red states.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 21st, 2013
2:39 pm
See, I disagree with Limbaugh again-
LIMBAUGH: FOR FIRST TIME I’M ASHAMED OF MY COUNTRY
I’ve been ashamed of my country for a little over 4 years now.
Matz
February 21st, 2013
2:42 pm
“Nobody gets the federal defense spending more than the deep southern red states.”
And yet, we’re not really safe and we’re not really free.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
2:50 pm
I see the libs didn’t take my advice and cut back on the hyperbolic and bigoted comments.
As if there was ever a chance of THAT happening. In fact, they just ratcheted it up a notch or two.
Now, to the fire department nonsense that Aquagirl and Mr.B brought up.
First, there is no issue with paying for fire service, as it is an expressed role of public safety and covered in the Constitution. As to education, as I’ve stated before, I have no problem paying for it, either. My problem is paying for something that doesn’t work, and more importantly, has a successful alternative.
There is NO successful alternative to the fire department.
In addition, there is likely never going to be an alternative to the fire department as the training is very specific and costly and the equipment even more so.
So once again, when you cannot debate, create a nonsensical alternate reality.
Aquagirl
February 21st, 2013
3:00 pm
First, there is no issue with paying for fire service, as it is an expressed role of public safety and covered in the Constitution.
The Constitution covers fire service for public safety? What section is that?
Ben
February 21st, 2013
3:02 pm
Don’t you know the only solution that is left wing approved is to do absolutely nothing except blame Republicans and spend more money? That’s the solution to every problem.
I wish the left would acknowledge that they had pretty much complete control over public education from the 60’s to the early 2000’s, a period which say steadily declining outcomes in education. Our schools got worse and worse, and now their only solution is more of the same, Any suggestions for change or alternatives is called evil, and the ones who prefer the status quo stick their fingers in their ears, heads in the sand, and refuse to accept any possibility of anything different.
You can see this in one of the first responses to this column, where DeborahinAthens rails against conservatives, and gives only one suggestion… Spend more money!
DeborahinAthens, spending more money rather than actually looking for solutions is what got us in this mess where unless you are a white female living in the suburbs, you are unlikely to get a decent public school education.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
3:02 pm
Public safety is a confirmed role of government, whether it is police, fire or national defense.
Grow up, Aquagirl.
Once again, when you lose the debate, the nonsense flows like crap through a goose.
Aquagirl
February 21st, 2013
3:08 pm
Public safety is a confirmed role of government, whether it is police, fire or national defense.
My goodness, my copy of the Constitution is obviously missing a whole section—really, could you just tell me where this is enumerated? Like “Article III 1/2?”
And can I order this special comprehensive edition from your online Constimatushun course? It’s really distressing I can find no complete copies anywhere.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
3:13 pm
The idiocy never stops with Aquagirl.
If you wish to play that game, Aquagirl, EDUCATION isn’t a role of government found in the Constitution.
Nor is health care.
Nor is providing welfare.
Nor is food stamps.
Nor is Social Security.
Now, are you going to move on from your nonsense, or are you just going to keep digging your hole ever deeper?
Aquagirl
February 21st, 2013
3:31 pm
If you wish to play that game, Aquagirl, EDUCATION isn’t a role of government found in the Constitution.
So it’s not really anything in the Constitution, it’s your personal opinion that taxes for fire services should be treated differently than education. Oh thank goodness, it’s merely squirming, not my faulty copy of the Constitution.
Now, when exactly were you elected Head Poobah Emperor of Tax Policy? Because otherwise “’cause fire departments have, y’know, fire engines and all” doesn’t seem like a selling point for why your education taxes are optional.
Then again if you want to leave your point right there, you can stand there with your pants around your ankles. This will not affect your self-appointed authority in any way.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
3:44 pm
Once again, Aquagirl, you keep creating fictional arguments and stances when you can’t defend the facts.
I have never said that education taxes are, or should be, optional. In fact, if you actually took the time to read what I wrote, instead of assuming without reading, you would have read that my issue isn’t with the taxes paid, but with the results and the direction those taxes take.
There is a successful product down the street that I wish to use my taxes for. It serves the same purpose as the taxes taken from me, but it actually has better results. Your solution is to continue to force me to pay for the inferior product, even if I don’t use it and send my kids to the same but superior product.
I don’t want your dollars, nor anyone else’s dollars. I just want the portion of MY dollars to help pay for the successful alternative.
You truly are a blithering idiot.
Matz
February 21st, 2013
4:00 pm
What an ugly way to express one’s basic selfishness. Yuck.
md
February 21st, 2013
4:11 pm
You guys look sillier and sillier in the West situation……you may want to go back to my very first post on the matter when I lead off with….”it may or may not amount to anything”
And folks say the education system is doing ok…….
barking frog
February 21st, 2013
4:18 pm
JDW 12:43
@Barking Frog…..”Free choice for the wealthy is not free choice.”
Interesting…why do you think that should apply to schools and not health care?
……………………………………………………………………
why do you think I think it does not appy to healthcare ?
md
February 21st, 2013
4:21 pm
“Yeah I am guessing that is why he conceded…he has a case. ”
Ummm JDW, there IS a difference between there having been a problem and him still losing the vote….do I need to explain that to you?
Aquagirl
February 21st, 2013
4:41 pm
I have never said that education taxes are, or should be, optional.
Yeah, saying “I should decide whether or not to pay taxes” isn’t saying they’re optional, because…Tiberius.
Once again, what legally or morally entitles you to decide educational services are opt-out, but not fire services? On what basis do you make this distinction besides WAHHHHH ME NO LIKEY? How about trash collection? Animal control? A road you never personally use? Are these also subject to your opt-out and buy your own policy?
And what makes you, Tiberius, entitled to overrule lawfully elected representatives with your personal opinion? Aside from a gigantic ego?
You have no logical reason why education specifically should be opt-out for your own service except you think so.
And as Republicans have learned you can run from the mockery this attitude so richly deserves, but you can’t hide.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
5:19 pm
“Yeah, saying “I should decide whether or not to pay taxes” isn’t saying they’re optional”
Nor did I ever state that, Aquagirl.
I see you’ve just decided to surrender the argument and create your own.
Typical for you.
Numbers-R-US
February 21st, 2013
5:34 pm
You truly are a blithering idiot.
he proclaims while staring in the mirror.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 21st, 2013
5:37 pm
Numbers-R-Us, you are free to argue the point I made, but I suspect you’re just not up to it as well.
Mr. Snarky
February 21st, 2013
10:01 pm
Kyle,
Pretty lame argument.
Choice = good. Schools = digital cameras.
Couldn’t you come up with anything better than this?