Obamacare fallout: Part-time employees losing their health insurance

Soon enough, the lemmings will realize they have been selected for slaughter. The Democrat Party owns this and history informs that they have never really cared about those they depend of for office sustaining votes.

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I remember one of your earlier columns explaining the “if you like your plan, you can keep it,” fallacy. I couldn’t get my liberal friends to understand that the wording in the Universal Healthcare Bill made this statement false ~ I’m afraid it will take it crashing down on their heads before they believe it was all a charade.

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Wait until they see what the government has to replace it with, hahahahaha, morons.

I hope libs like long lines with snarling government flunkies at the end of them.

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covers only a maximum of $5,000 a year toward hospital stays.

What is that, like 20 minutes?

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Kyle’s earlier column ~ http://blogs.ajc.com/kyle-wingfield/2009/07/22/choice-is-a-casualty-of-obamacare/

Kyle read the bill and was knowledgeable before the “… $800+ an hour ERISA attorneys and the most sophisticated HR people understand how Obamacare really works.”

Good columns!!!

Looks like Kyle needs to be added to this sentence

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So, the middle class is getting hammered with tax hikes, loss of services and rampant inflation while the libs cheer on the Wall Street capitalists. The gap between the rich and the poor widens, and the dummycrats couldn’t be more happy.

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Whether Kyle’s dire predictions will come true or not remains to be seen, but if they do, it will only bring closer a better system than ObamaCare: public option or a “Medicare for all,” because people will not go back to caps, refusal of insurance for pre-existing conditions and other “benefits” of the system before ObamaCare.

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…a move the resort says has been forced by the federal government’s health-care overhaul.

“[F]orced”?

Universal Orlando made a choice.

Those choices have consequences

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More Chicken Little sky is falling stuff.

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Good news for businesses.

Think of all the money formerly going to employee health insurance that will now go to the bottom line.

Heck, maybe some companies will use some of their increased profits to improve employee wages, then the employee can exercise personal responsibility and get their own insurance.

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I hope ObamaCare fails and deal opting out will help make that happen.

We should have CanadaCare by now and slow to change on this issue.

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ACA is a Trojan horse to push the country into socialized medicine. The left just loves the European socialized model and its Canadian cousin model even though it hasn’t worked particularly well.

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Kamchak: It’s not much of a choice when the status quo is not a legal option.

They could’ve chosen to insure them under a plan that was a legal option.

Instead, they chose not to insure them at all.

A “giant theme-park resort, which generates more than $1 billion in annual revenue” cannot find a way to insure the health of it’s employees?

There’s your sign.

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So the people that are forced on to Medicare/medicaid- who pays for them? Tax payers! And what about Dental and vision? The insurance companies don’t offer good low cost plans for most services needed like crowns, root canals, bridges, dentures,etc.I think what they are trying to do is to stop illegals from clogging up the emergency room when little illegal pedro has an ear ache. What they should do is deport these illegals just like their home land would do. BTW, in Mexico or in Islamic countries, you either get shot or go to jail if you enter the country illegally. But these environmentalist wacko liberals greet illegals with benefits, citizenship and membership into the Democrat party. It’s like they won the prize pack on the Price is Right!

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You cons should love it because it was written by a VP of a health care insurance company and most of it is corporate welfare.

del is right.

If it fails we join the rest of the civilized countries to get CanadaCare.

Are you tired of losing to Canada and falling behind?

I am.

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“Universal said it would not save any money by dropping the part-time insurance plans. The resort said it currently does not spend anything itself on plan — it only negotiates a group rate through Florida Hospital and then helps facilitate employee enrollment.”

That doesn’t give you a clue as the value of said “plan”…could a baseball bat in the head be more subtle?

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@Kyle…”Easy for you to say, JDW, but 500 employees at the park thought otherwise.”

That is because they had either no alternative or didn’t understand. Those plans are a SCAM and should be outlawed.

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del,

There is no perfect plan or government.

We are falling way behind in a global market.

Are you sick of losing to Canada?

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Any thoughts on Bookmans opinion that by Deal’s decision to opt out of the ACA exchanges he’ll be denying health care insurance to 600,000.

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Wash. Rinse. Repeat. Same old sour grapes from Wingfield.

He had ‘gut feelings’ about Newt and Mitt. His take on public policy his about as correct as his gut feelings. Corporations only care about the bottom line, period. 5 stacks won’t cover much of a hospital stay anyone. Those employees will be getting better healthcare. Republicans love personal responsibility until they don’t. Obamacare was thought of by republicans.

Keep doing what you’re doing, Cons.

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Are you sick of losing to Canada?

getalife, are you referring to health care or economics? If the former most Canadians who’ve suffered or are suffering significant health issues will tell you how disappointed they are in the Canadian system. If you’re talking economics they’ve come a long way after deciding to scrap the liberal policies, which began during the Pierre Trudeau regime.

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that is an annual cost of about $1.5 million for the affected workers leaving them “only” $948.5 million in operating cash flow….

Well, you know, $948.5 million doesn’t buy what it used to.

Gotta prioritize.

Triage.

Them execs. gotta have them mansions, otherwise they might “go Galt” on us.

Never mind that a sick populace eats into their revenue stream.

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del,

I am talking about dropping in ratings like the economy, infrastructure, education, etc… to attract corps to compete in the global market.

We are falling way behind and I am sick of it.

“Right-Wing Media Reported Chuck Hagel Was ‘Friends With Hamas’… Based On Reporter’s Joke” HP.

Your media working on their credibility.

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Reap the Whirlwind Liberal Idiots…

This is just the beginning and the Democrats own every single bit of this debacle

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@Kyle…”operating income of only $27M, a (pre-tax) margin of 0.6%.”

I said cash flow not operating income…they, as do many large companies, do a wonder job of financial engineering to avoid paying taxes.

For the most part businesses are valued on free cash flow.

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Kyle, yes I read your commentary at the time and agree. The federal government doesn’t provide the money, taxpayers provide the money and given how far we are in debt accumulation, how can we afford another entitlement. Aside from the financial implications it’s my understanding that under the ACA exchanges will still be formed and managed regardless of respective state governments opting in or out. Since the exchanges will be formed in all states regardless I don’t see how Deal could be denying 600,000 health insurance.

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If the former most Canadians who’ve suffered or are suffering significant health issues will tell you how disappointed they are in the Canadian system

Link please.

From what ive heard they like Universal Healthcare

A Strategic Counsel survey found 91% of Canadians prefer their healthcare system instead of a U.S. style system.[9][10] Plus 70% of Canadians rated their system as working either “well” or “very well”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada

They are kicking our tail in almost every measurable way on healthcare.

But by all means proceed.

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Cheesy, wikipedia? yeah sure. There’s been documented accounts of Canadians coming here for health care they can’t receive in a timely manner in Canada. Also my late mother was Canadian and I know a few people there. We have the finest health care in the world at least for now.

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Yes indigo … companies typically have that unlimited “pot of gold” hiding in the back room, that only the evil Republican leaders of the company can access. You are blinded by foolish liberal kool-aid and a complete mis-understanding of how and why businesses exist. To make a profit perhaps?

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For all you con tools who think global warming is a liberal myth.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/20/opinion/sutter-polar-bears/index.html?hpt=hp_c3

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And Del.

More Americans go to Canada for healthcare than the other way around.

In fact marriages of convenience happen all the time along the border just so one of the two parties doesn’t have to go bankrupt to save their life.

All the countries with Universal Healthcare all have longer life spans. lower rates of heart disease, diabetes, infant mortality rates are lower, the list goes on and on.

Why is that you think ?

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John – 12:46 “to make a profit, perhaps”

No John.

To make the LARGEST POSSIBLE profit is the goal.

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“For the most part businesses are valued on free cash flow.”

No they aren’t……they are valued based on their overall financials.

One could have a billion dollars in cash flow but if they had 30 billion in debt and revenue of several million very few would want to touch them…….

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Obamacare is just the excuse for a business decision that was made. While maybe not agreeing with the decision, I understand that a financial decision was made. However, insurance didn’t just start going up. It has been doing so for years.

But with the heated debated over Obamacare, why not use that excuse knowing that people like Kyle will carry the “water” (message)

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del,

I have done some consulting in Canada and the workers like their health care and government.

They are healthy and happy.

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If we wanted Canada’s health care, we would move there.

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@md…”No they aren’t”

You are squarely in my area of expertise and you are mistaken. Free cash flow is the basic measuring block of any business. Next comes return on invested capital though acceptable rates vary based on industry. As for your example…not feasible… you can’t have free cash flow of a billion on revenue of several million unless you are cooking the books. As for debt the question is does the cash flow support the debt. While more debt does raise risks if it worried anyone Romney and the rest of the PE market, would have never made a dime.

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There is a reason that Canada can afford to steal from it’s citizens and lavish them with long waiting times and selective care services. It’s called the United States, keeping them free from foreign invaders.

What do they got for self defense now, a couple of sling shots?

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Hey, Libs, just remember what kind of intelligent minds we are dealing wit here:

“There is nothing that gets into states right issues like riding a manatee,” says Michael Kauffman, author and Tea Party expert. “Today, we can’t ride a manatee–tomorrow, we won’t be able to open a business,” he told “The Daily Show’s” Al Madrigal

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… to make a profit, balanced with a healthy company financial report … for the investors, for the stockholders (if applicable), for the stakeholders (including employees if applicable), and for the sustainable existence and growth of the company (no matter what the size or the industry). So if a company chooses to drop employee healthcare coverage, have you considered that it might just be for the preservation of jobs within the company … and the company itself?

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The dim party is so accustomed to having their supporters believe whatever they are selling that they forget some people can think outside the box they want to put us in.

Desperation produces low-info voters.

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How’s that gap between the rich and poor doing with the robin hood dummycrats in charge? Weren’t they just the other day cheering on Wall Street?

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“You are squarely in my area of expertise and you are mistaken.”

And I’ve played some in that arena and you are wrong……

Cash flow is but one variable of the equation when valuing a company, if you base your decisions based on just one variable then good luck with that…….

” As for your example…not feasible…you can’t have free cash flow of a billion on revenue of several million unless you are cooking the books.”

You might want to change arenas if that’s what you think…….it’s pretty easy in my scenario and would be one of the reasons the company is in so much debt. If they borrowed 30 billion at some point it isn’t too hard to keep a billion of it in cash………

Geez, the housing bubble had plenty of players doing just that……as HD said last night, they walked away from the debt with cash in their pockets…..how do suppose they did that?

How do you suppose the Solyndra big wigs walked with our money in their pockets? We gave them the loans, they took their cut and then shut the place down……..

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When asked who the “greatest Canadian” of all time was, Google whose name Canadians gave the most: Tommy Douglas, founder of their healthcare system.

from Wiki:

In 2004, a CBC Television program named him “The Greatest Canadian,” based on a viewer-supported survey.

further:
His government was the first democratic socialist government in North America, and it introduced the continent’s first single payer, universal health care program.

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My health-care prejudices crumbled not in the classroom but on the way to one. On a subzero Winnipeg morning in 1997, I cut across the hospital emergency room to shave a few minutes off my frigid commute. Swinging open the door, I stepped into a nightmare: the ER overflowed with elderly people on stretchers, waiting for admission. Some, it turned out, had waited five days. The air stank with sweat and urine. Right then, I began to reconsider everything that I thought I knew about Canadian health care. I soon discovered that the problems went well beyond overcrowded ERs. Patients had to wait for practically any diagnostic test or procedure, such as the man with persistent pain from a hernia operation whom we referred to a pain clinic—with a three-year wait list; or the woman needing a sleep study to diagnose what seemed like sleep apnea, who faced a two-year delay; or the woman with breast cancer who needed to wait four months for radiation therapy, when the standard of care was four weeks.

Of course, his health care “prejudices” were based on a bunch of libs bad mouthing the US system.

Maybe these lovers of Canadacare just don’t know any better or are terminally stupid like all these US dummycrats.

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Can we conclude the Con melt down du-jour?

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Take it back to bookmans, moonbat.

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@MD…O’Dear you are a bit out of it….

“Cash flow is but one variable of the equation when valuing a company, if you base your decisions based on just one variable then good luck with that…….”

Cash flow…i.e….the dollars, on an annual basis, a company has left after paying it’s bills but before such non-cash expenses as depreciation or goodwill and in the context we are discussing before income taxes or investments or loans. It is the what determines of liquidity and the main driver of financial worth. Should a company have other assets such as technology or physical assets they are considered separately.

“You might want to change arenas if that’s what you think…….it’s pretty easy in my scenario and would be one of the reasons the company is in so much debt. If they borrowed 30 billion at some point it isn’t too hard to keep a billion of it in cash………”

Cash flow is measured on an annual basis and excludes proceeds of loans…you mean cash balance.

“Geez, the housing bubble had plenty of players doing just that……as HD said last night, they walked away from the debt with cash in their pockets…..how do suppose they did that?”

They either got lucky and no one sued them or they reached an agreement with creditors. If they had declared bankruptcy the cash would have gone to pay the debt.

“How do you suppose the Solyndra big wigs walked with our money in their pockets? We gave them the loans, they took their cut and then shut the place down……..”

Any money they walked with was personal salary not cash flow.

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This is the beginning of the nation’s transition to single payer, as envisioned and stated by The Obama. Perhaps we should start calling it Mother America.

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Oh no!! They will lose their CRAPPY insurance!!

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I simply love it, I can’t wait for those new premium bills or penalty bills to start showing up in mailboxes for the first time. Don’t forget, these will come every month and you asked for it. Enjoy!.

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@Centrist….actually Eastern had less than Zero cash flow which is why they ended up where they did. As for PE’s….yep they have been abandoned for a long time.

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“Any money they walked with was personal salary not cash flow.”

And those salaries come from where? Cash flow…….

As for cash flow, you don’t get to make up your own definition to suit your purposes:

“The (total) net cash flow of a company over a period (typically a quarter or a full year) is equal to the change in cash balance over this period: positive if the cash balance increases (more cash becomes available), negative if the cash balance decreases. The total net cash flow is the sum of cash flows that are classified in three areas:

Operational cash flows: Cash received or expended as a result of the company’s internal business activities. It includes cash earnings plus changes to working capital. Over the medium term this must be net positive if the company is to remain solvent.
Investment cash flows: Cash received from the sale of long-life assets, or spent on capital expenditure (investments, acquisitions and long-life assets).
Financing cash flows: Cash received from the issue of debt and equity, or paid out as dividends, share repurchases or debt repayments.”

“They either got lucky and no one sued them or they reached an agreement with creditors. If they had declared bankruptcy the cash would have gone to pay the debt.”

No…..they borrowed the money as a business and paid themselves as an individual in salary……

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mom of 3,

Yeah, cheesy beat it out of town by not answering my 12:49. These guy’s come on the blogs parroting what they get from the far-left Web sites and regurgitate it as factual.

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The people who really know the law, and who have been following the avalanche of regulations, have already figured this out. It will take a while for this specialized knowledge to seep downward, because right now only $800+ an hour ERISA attorneys and the most sophisticated HR people understand how Obamacare really works.

I don’t make $800 per hour, and I’m a doctor (and actuary), not an attorney, but I knew that ObamaCare was a loser right out of the gate. I’ve explained why in excruciating detail on several previous blogs, but here are the pertinent facts:

(1) The primary problem in our health care system is cost, not accessibility or any other conjured up problem.

(2) One of the main drivers of the high costs is an over-reliance on the third-party billing system.

(3) Because ObamaCare increases, rather than decreases, the role of the third-party billing system, costs will necessarily go up, not down.

(4) The vast majority of the uninsured folks in our country are young people, poor people and illegal immigrants. Though they may be required to carry health insurance, they’re not going to be paying for it. As such, the “spreading the costs around” argument is bunk.

As much as the Libs here keep dreaming of “something for nothing”, it doesn’t work that way in the real world.

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You better just worry about yourself, eh ?

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This was predicted by people with working brains back when this abortion was passed.

So yes, some of us told you so.

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@Bruno…”One of the main drivers of the high costs is an over-reliance on the third-party billing system.”

Yes it is, but the only way around that is a Single Payer system…

However, I don’t buy into the conclusion that costs must go up under the ACA…as you say third party billing will increase however the risk pool will enlarge and the burden of paying the bills of the uninsured should decrease as well. But, overall there will not be nor was there every promised a big cost decrease…a reduction in growth rate yes….

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Yes it is, but the only way around that is a Single Payer system…

You never heard of cash, JDW??

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“Ok now you are arguing against yourself…read the one titled “Operational Cash Flow”…that is what we are discussing.”

Except you never made a distinction of “operation” cash flow, you stated “cash flow”, which includes all the above……

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“Which, coincidentally, is just what I said…their personal salaries have nothing to do with free cash flow.”

Sure it does if those salaries are being paid with cash…….

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Thank you, KYLE, for showing us the creeping mishaps of Obamacare.

Thank you, BRUNO, for explaining, once again, how the cost of ObamaCare will be beyond anything we have seen yet and adding more regulations is not the way to simplify and improve healthcare.

Then we have the liberals here bragging on the “trophy care” of Canada,(the first nation in North America to offer SOCIALISTIC healthcare). It still has many faults while serving its 35 million people. The USA has 313 million people and still has the best healthcare in the world. So we change it to SOCIALISM, with its loss of freedom and first step towards a communistic system.

Freedom is being squeezed out of every system in the USA by Democrats who seem blind to what they promote. One obvious sign of their efforts if the continued cry of blaming the rich or those who prosper while ignoring the fact that some people do not and never will prosper. But Dems want to lead us blindly to a new system.

Well, I”m not blind and I value freedom. You can beat the nitty gritty to death proclaiming we need to change. Forget it! The whole thing being lost under this system is freedom. I’lll keep my freedom. You can go look for yours elsewhere. No one here will stop you but other countries may not want ingrates either.

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You better just worry about yourself, eh ?

Jefferson–Did it ever occur to you that if everyone worried about and took care of themselves and their own families, then no one would have to be worrying about and paying for others?? Obviously, there is a (very small) group of people who are unable to care for themselves, but that group forms only a fraction of those receiving benefits right now. I work in the health care industry, and can tell you unequivocally that the majority of people who are “disabled” are no less able than you or I.

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One has to wonder why Romneycare is working in his home state. History will not be kind to some of these Companies and States.

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Bruno – 2:44

The overwhelming number of people who think AGW and Evolution are junk science ARE religious zealots.

I guess you must be a special kind of zealot.

Someday, if you can find the courage to read all of Carl Sagan’s books, you may actually learn what science actually is.

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It seems like every move made by Democrats is calculated to create an ever larger dependent class. Pretty soon, there will no incentive to go to college, get a job and work for a living, and everyone will live in a minimalized state. Communism anyone?

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“One has to wonder why Romneycare is working in his home state.”

Maybe because it’s not…..read up on it, folks there like it but it still doesn’t provide hc for all, it has not stopped increasing costs, trips to emergency rooms actually went up (convenience AND free insurance, what a great combination) and the legislature is trying desperately to cap payments to providers……..

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@Bruno…”You never heard of cash”

Not going to work…doesn’t work anywhere in the world. There has to be some sort of facilitator either insurance companies or government. The fewer there are the cheaper it will be….one is the best number of all.

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Corporations have figured out that they can pay a worker next to nothing for 5 hours and bring another part-time worker in for the next 5 hours and have the added benefit of not having to pay for healthcare. They would also like to get rid of the minimum wage and pay them as little as they can get away with.

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@md…”Except you never made a distinction of “operation” cash flow, you stated “cash flow”, which includes all the above……”

Nope first post on the subject…”Universal Parks & Resorts, generated approximately $950 million in operating cash flow last year”

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Not going to work…doesn’t work anywhere in the world.

That so?? I ran a cash practice for 20 years in Atlanta. My fees were only a fraction of what “insurance” practitioners charged. To this day, I pay cash for all of the health care I need, and receive a substantial discount every time.

The bottom line is that insurance (of any type) is intended to be a hedge against catastrophic loss. Once you start including routine costs, such as a typical GP visit, it’s no longer insurance.

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Point is it will cost us less to pay those bills by insuring them than it does today when they end up with indigent care.

How so, JDW.

BTW, in case you were unaware, the majority of our health care dollars are spent treating preventable conditions. And when I say preventable, it’s in reference to an unhealthy lifestyle, not in reference to not going to a doctor sooner.

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@md…”The burden of paying is basically unchanged, and may even go up if the newly insured increase their trips to the doctor because society just handed them a shiny new insurance card…….no cost to them.”

I think the total cost of providing care, preventative and when needed, will be less than the cost of waiting until they hit the emergency room.

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Obamacare is a crafted solution to having 50+ million citizens unable to purchase private medical insurance and not being able to access the system in a fair and decent manner.

Lie #1.

You and the GOP haven’t put forth any credible ideas or plans that address this problem now or in the past.

Lie #2.

So stop complaining that Obamacare was enacted. If the GOP had worked with the President, maybe some of these issues wouldn’t be coming up now.

Lie #3.

Nice rant, Rockerbabe. Next time try to include some truth.

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@Bruno…”That so?? I ran a cash practice for 20 years in Atlanta. My fees were only a fraction of what “insurance” practitioners charged. To this day, I pay cash for all of the health care I need, and receive a substantial discount every time.”

But you did not provide emergency care, hospitalization or anything else outside of a narrow specialty. While you may know enough to negotiate a decent rate that is not the case with the average citizen who would be flabbergasted to know the difference in the “rack” rate vs. the insured rate in 99% of all medical facilities in the US.

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think the total cost of providing care, preventative and when needed, will be less than the cost of waiting until they hit the emergency room.

Sounds like a nice dream, JDW. Here are the facts:

http://www.pwc.com/us/en/healthcare/publications/the-price-of-excess.jhtml

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Heaven forbid we should promote the less expensive approach of preventative medicine for all so we reduce the costs of treating people with what should have been preventable but very expensive health conditions later…that would just make too much sense.

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md, so you’re saying that preventative care does not work? REALLY?

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err, rebuttal, not refuttal

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Finn…..still haven’t answered why Medicare will not work for all……

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@Bruno…”Sounds like a nice dream, JDW. Here are the facts:”

No one disputes the waste…question is how to reduce it. The leaders in doing so, noted in this report and others do so via Single Payer…not requiring cash at time of service.

As for the contention that providing insurance will ultimately cost less than not…the report does not address that specific detail. Some percentage in the behavioral and clinical waste categories will be mitigated by providing better care.

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Yeah, I agree. Assisting people to quit smoking, teaching people how to eat healthier, encouraging forms of exercise, medications that lower cholesterol, colorectal screenings – none of these are worth it. Skip all of your physicals and hope for the best! That’s the Republican way.

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No ball spiking…………..

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Read an interesting column the other day where the guy was pointing out how Obama is taking advantage of his most loyal supporters, young Americans. Column pointed out the debt being left to them and how Obamacare holds down costs of elderly premiums by overpricing the premiums of the young.

Reminded me when I was working for an employer, who offered life insurance on a group basis. Being youthful, I thought great deal, not realizing that the employer was not contributing and the rates were adjusted to help the older employees. The rate for me in my 20’s was less than that for a fifty year old, but I didn’t how much I was being taken advantage of until I ran into a life insurance agent. He challenged me to get three estimates based on my age. I did and saw that my excess premium was going to subsidize the older workers. I dropped the employee coverage and moved to a private plan. The same thing is going on with Obamacare, but many of the youth will not realize it.

I have always thought Soc Sec was the same scam. Take money from a guy/girl just starting out whose net worth is closely tied to how much gas is in his car, and give that money to a blue haired widow with hundreds of thousands in the bank. Taking from those who can least afford it, to give to those who don’t need it, is immoral

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Dusty – nothing is for “free.” But some things make more sense when streamlined via everyone paying into the pool via taxes. We already do that with socialized medicine in this country for seniors, for Congress, for military folks and veterans, and it works a heck of a lot better than the mess that is private health insurance.

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” teaching people how to eat healthier,”

Here’s a clue for you Steve…..we use taxpayer dollars to fund an assistance program called “education”, it is designed to help people better themselves so they don’t have to end up on welfare or some other gov’t entitlement program.

Currently, close to 1/3 of eligible individuals choose not to participate…….

You are quite welcome to fool yourself about all the wonderful and good programs Steve, but folks still have to CHOOSE to participate……

Humans will still be humans in this new program too……..

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AQUAGIRL attended the Minor School of Mirky Minnows (but they had great bowl games)…..

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Steve

Recent studies have shown that annual physicals are not as beneficial for long lives, as have been promoted by the medical industry. The difference in life expectancy is not that different among the two groups.

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We’re still waiting on the proof of evolution.

Still.

Waiting.

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“Great bowl games…” OK, gotta admit that one cracked me up.

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And if it’s not an EOB but an invoice, then the same thing occurs. Docs know insurance companies are involved it’s an entirely different price as they have to adjust their numbers accordingly….

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We’ve got encyclopedia’s slap full of all the liberal ideas that became complete and total murderous disasters all through the history of the world but yet they still persist.

Do they get their kicks inflicting carnage and pain on others while enriching themselves?

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Aesop

For you

Can you understand it?

http://records.viu.ca/~johnstoi/essays/courtenay1.htm

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For all you con tools who think global warming is a liberal myth.

Debunked:

http://judithcurry.com/2012/12/21/never-look-a-polar-bear-in-the-eye/

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Needless to say, your 8th grade homeschool level of learning means evolution is utterly beyond your comprehension.

indie – It’s easier to say “Aesop, yes, we don’t have any proof.” Why do you waste all this effort twisting yourself into a pretzel?

By the way, my “eighth grade homeschool education” provides me with enough common sense to know you don’t strip off your clothes and lie on the floor to make an academic point. And you?

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Health insurance = better access to health care = finding diseases early = lower cost to treat them and the chances of a longer, healthier life.

period.
This
is
not
rocket
science

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Yep it is a problem…of course to address it you got to talk sense into the “death panel” loons that made this whole process a great deal more complicated.

JDW–On this point, we are in complete agreement. Medicare studies have shown that a high percentage of health care dollars spent over the course of a lifetime typically come during “end of life” care.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/12/11/pf/end-of-life-care-duplicate-2.moneymag/index.html

Assisting people to quit smoking, teaching people how to eat healthier, encouraging forms of exercise, medications that lower cholesterol, colorectal screenings – none of these are worth it. Skip all of your physicals and hope for the best! That’s the Republican way.

Keep dreaming, Steve. Responsibility for our own behavior lies within the individual. And, as md pointed out above, epidemiological studies typically show no difference in those who spend a lot of money on various “screenings”, including colonoscopies and PSA testing, and those who don’t. Once again, our health depends primarily upon our lifestyle, not on how much money we’re spending on unnecessary tests.

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indie’s “proof”

Living creatures must come from other living creatures. It does no damage to this point to claim that life must have had some origin way back in time, perhaps in a chemical reaction of inorganic materials (in some primordial soup) or in some invasion from outer space.

Where’d the primordial soup come from?

Here again, the evidence from fossils is overwhelming. In the deepest rock layers, there are no signs of life. The first fossil remains are of very simple living things. As the strata get more recent, the variety and complexity of life increase (although not at a uniform rate). And no human fossils have ever been found except in the most superficial layers of the earth (e.g., battlefields, graveyards, flood deposits, and so on).

So we should have an orderly procession of fossils detailing each stage of this evolution, from the soup right on to Aunt Emma.

Still.

Waiting.

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What does matter — and this matters both for prevention and treatment services — is value: the health benefit per dollar invested.

Preventive services are worth it if they improve health at a relatively low cost. The way we control health care spending is by moving our money from expensive low-value services — both treatment and prevention — to more cost-effective (NOT cost-saving) high-value interventions. Fewer expensive drugs that extend life a week or a month; more proven early interventions that can extend life for years or decades.

Yes, prevention does not save money. But effective preventive care, like effective treatments, needs to be a part of a reformed health care system.

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Aw, come on, AQUAGIRL, we know you were already cracked.. Now hush. I’m into preaching today and I haven’t even gotten to the Re-SO-lution of E-VO-lu-tio n……..

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I’m curious, how many firms in GA offer, even limited, health care plans to part-time employees? I know several people who work part time and not one of them is covered by health insurance and they don’t expect to be.

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“Health insurance = better access to health care = finding diseases early = lower cost to treat them and the chances of a longer, healthier life.”

Steve…..you can give one insurance, but you can’t force them to use it.

What part of that are you a having a hard time with?

We provide education for 100% of individuals, yet only 70% use it…..

I can’t make it any clearer…..

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What people like Kyle, Dusty and others like them cannot seem to realize is that health care is unlike any other product or service. When people do not have enough money to spend, they can go without large-screen TV or iPads, without going to Braves game, as long they have enough to eat and a roof above their heads, plus a few other necessities. But being sick or injured is a matter of real suffering or death.

When there are people who cannot afford the treatment and could not afford health insurance, there are only two alternatives. Either they get the treatment and other people pay for it, or they suffer or die. Letting poor people to be without health insurance thus means either to turn a blind eye to their suffering, or to let others pay for them. Since nobody can predict an illness or injury, and even if one could, there is only one equitable way of taking care of sick and injured: To spread the cost of insurance to that part of the whole population that can afford to pay, and subsidize it for those who cannot.

To claim that the US had, before Obamacare, “the best healthcare in the world” is a sick joke. It had the best care in the world for those who could pay for it. The talk about SOCIALIST healthcare is just an expression of a total ignorance of the words used. People who talk about a loss of freedom because of universal healthcare are people who do not care.

Fortunately, as I wrote before, once people realize the positive features of ObamaCare, they will never want to go back. Obamacare will be improved to fix the deficiencies, or a single payer system will eventually be instituted.

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Bruno

You didn’t answer my 3:37.

Do you consider my siding with Nobel Prize winning scientists “blind appeals to authority”?

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Aesop

The primordial soup came from water in the Earth’s rocks, comets and asteroids which brought a rich chemistry to the oceans.

The first life on Earth left NO fossil record.

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Anybody able to explain this?

“Monaco has the highest life expectancy in the world at 89.68 years
Chad has the lowest level of life expectancy at 48.69 years
America ranks 51st in the table with 78.49 years, while the United Kingdom comes in 30th at 80.17 years”

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2240855/How-does-nation-rank-world-map-life-expectancy.html#ixzz2LTcCaxks

Why are we number 51 if our healthcare system is so great?

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Bruno

For you.

Not that it will do any good as you seem to already know all there is to know.

http://www.proof-of-evolution.com/theory-of-evolution.html

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Aesop

As our Sun was forming, it had, on it’s outside, a disk. This disk contained, among other things, Hydrogen and Oxygen. As rocks formed from this disk, the Oxygen and Hydrogen molecules combined to make H2O(water) and this, in turn, combined with the rocks.

Comets also formed out of the gas and dust and became what some scientists call “dirty snowballs”. These comets also contained generous amounts of Methane and Ammonia. In the oceans, these formed into ammino acids, the building blocks of life.

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Total ignorance is the ignoramuses that try to deny socialism is socialism.

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Mutations: these are errors in the genetic code that occur by chance because reproduction in nature is never perfect.

Natural selection: this is the process by which nature weeds out mutations that negatively affect survival and preserves those that help survival (or reproduction).

indie – The only thing this proves is that you must be some sort of freak.

Still.

Waiting.

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So cost hinders access?

And the best way to remove hindrance is to have the federal government use its’ unlimited police powers to FORCE cost controls by setting the prices for services, products and selecting who receives what care or what amount thereof?

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And the best way to remove hindrance is to have the federal government use its’ unlimited police powers to FORCE cost controls by setting the prices for services, products and selecting who receives what care or what amount thereof?

Of course this is not fascist or socialist… NAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

It’s both!

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MarkV

I am not totally ignorant of our healthcare system as I have worked in it for many years. Laboratory medicine that is.

I appreciate your kind feelings but I don’t believe you know what is available to people with little or no money. Have you ever heard of Medicaid? Of PeachCare? Of free clinics? Of Grady Hospital? Of ER regulations? Of church foundations for aid? Or funds budgeted for “charity” in; most hospitals? Or places like St. Judes? Even state and county facilities (not Federal) of all kinds run by the people who live there? The list goes on.

True, the latest and most thorough treatments are usually expensive. So much that no one or system can afford them for everyone who needs them. That’s a sad reality that won’t change with ObamaCare. Nor will it rule out death or change the statistics of death and there will still be sick people who live under bridges whether we like it or not.

We give high standard healthcare in the USA. What you want without realization is the fact that you will sacrifice good medicine for mediocre healthcare. I don’t think lowering our standards is the way to go. Try to think of something better than socialized medicine. Don’t trade your Rolls Royce for a KIA.

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You advocating gun control?

No, liberal control.

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Aesop – 4:36

I’ve done all I can for you, boy.

If you insist on going thru life mired in ignorance, that’s your decision.

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Dusty @ 4:50 pm

Dusty,

Is it so difficult to comprehend what I have written? “When there are people who cannot afford the treatment and could not afford health insurance, there are only two alternatives. Either they get the treatment and other people pay for it, or they suffer or die.” Now you are telling me about ”what is available to people with little or no money.” What is common to EVERYTHING on your list? OTHER PEOPLE PAY FOR IT. Just what I wrote. But do you want to claim that what you listed is the most efficient way of doing it?

And please, stop that nonsense about SOCIALISM and “socialized medicine.” Why do people think that putting a label on something proves anything? Nobody I know here is advocating socialized medicine. If you want to claim they had, please define what socialized medicine means to you.

Also, if you complain about “loss of freedom,” please explain what freedom you lose if there is universal health insurance.

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If obama was really serious about his job (yeah right-he wants to be Emperor in charge) he would have nationwide competition among the insurance companies. He would also allow the pipeline to come thru and employ thousands of americans and help lower gas prices. But no, he is an environmentalist Muslim who wants to put us in the eighth century, be like europe- bankrupt and be the emperor.

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@Dusty…”I’m surprised that the near thousands of people you directed (as you once told us) did not find you a ;better insurance company or a better doctor. Maybe you should look up Bruno.”

Why you are correct. I have had the pleasure of leading two 1000+ person organizations, one in the US and one in Europe. Most of those folks, like you apparently, did not understand that in the American health care system a cash payer is charged quite a bit more than an insured person. See the insurance companies negotiate the rates while the self insured pay full price.

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@Rafe…”Wealth transfer between the groups should not be automatic, as it is.”

In 1932 you had a point…today the vast majority of those covered by Social Security are collecting on an investment made over thier working lifetime.

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@Bruno…“consumer indifference”

True enough. Now if you want to say the American consumer should better understand the costs involved in health care so they can make decsions accordingly I agree. In fact my preferred solution would be a Single Payer basic program supplimented by either additional insurance or self funded extras.

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Bruno

Still waiting for an answer to my 3:37 and 4:19.

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Bruno

Here is your answer to genetic mutations.

After this, I will no longer try to explain science to you as it seems to just be beyond your comprehesion.

http://atheism.about.com/od/evolutionexplained/a/GeneticsMutationsDNA.htm

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A smart person Bruno would use member owned and controlled mutual healthcare COOps for basic and major healthcare coverage and leave the options for private insurers to cover.

We didn’t need government to CoOp electricity to give affordable access to people and we don’t government to CoOp healthcare to give affordable access to people medical coverage.

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Dusty @ 5:38 pm

ABSOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLUTELY!

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I’m glad to be among the Capitalist. We never have to deny capitalism or apologize for being capitalist; or distort what capitalism is because we are afraid of its’ public rejection.

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@Bruno…”The problem is cost, not access.”

OK you are splitting hairs…they don’t go to the doctor, who could see them so there is access, because they don’t have money. So the root problem is access as a function of cost.

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“The first life on Earth left NO fossil record.”

And where did it come from???

Oh yeh, it came from nowhere…….you do realize how silly that sounds…..right?

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Dusty @ 5:30 pm

“Do I think government can run things economically? NO”

I guess you have not seen the comparison of overhead costs between Medicare and private insurance plans. How about some real world knowledge instead of ideological illusions?

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Did anyone else note the irony of indie posting “proof” of evolution articles copied from atheism.com or his total lack of awareness of it?

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“I don’t know why you want this plan to fail, but it is obvious you do.”

Because it is not smart to add another entitlement program to the stable when one can not afford the programs already in the stable……

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“I guess you have not seen the comparison of overhead costs between Medicare and private insurance plans.”

Bad comparison.

You are aware that the feds reimbursement rates for medicare and medicaid are not indicative of the actual cost for that care…..right?

When providers only get a set amount from the feds for providing that care, where do they get the money to make up the difference? Yep, from the market.

So every time the feds lower their rates, there is an increase somewhere else to make up the difference.

Why do you think doctors are not seeing new medicare or medicaid patients?? If it was such a good deal they would load up on them ….right? Well….they aren’t.

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@Kyle…”Easy for you to say, JDW, but 500 employees at the park thought otherwise.”
@Kyle…”The resort said it currently does not spend anything itself on plan — it only negotiates a group rate through Florida Hospital and then helps facilitate employee enrollment.”

500 parttime employees (out of 17,000 – fewer than 3%) use this limited insurance that Universal does not contribute any funding towards. So, basically, Universal wasn’t providing them anything other than an alledgedly better group rate for lousy insurance. When my company offers me “deals” on things through our HR dept., I found I could always find better deals on my own.

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Florida signs up for ObamaCare.

Boom.

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md @ 6:34 pm

You do understand what overhead is, don’t you?

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jeb bush just wants to turn everyone in Florida into a Republican -

There is growing concern, for example, that the law’s market reforms will cause a huge “rate shock,” particularly for those young and healthy.

A February survey of major health insurance companies in five cities across the country found that they expect premiums for this group to climb an average 169%.

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To be honest, nobody I know that works part-time has insurance through their employer. Not saying it doesn’t happen but it’s rare in my world.

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Bruno – 6:10 “come across as being completely uninformed”

And yet, YOU won’t answer my 5:34.

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indie – If an atheist believed in the Creation then he wouldn’t be an atheist. So they have to flounder around for something to replace the most obvious thing in the world, kinda like you are.

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Aesop – 7:09

That is not what I asked.

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Aesop dodges my question.

Bruno refuses to answer.

No surprise.

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While you idiot libs pooh-pooh these “useless” and “worthless” low-cost plans that are being phased out, remember the people who are being covered by them.

Low-income earners such as part-time (as in Kyle’s example earlier) and people like restaurant workers like wait staff and cooks. Waffle House just killed their low cost plan for something that most people who work for them cannot afford, so now many are uninsured. What used to cost them about $15 bucks every 2 weeks and covered most things that average people need, now covers lots more but costs over $50 every 2 weeks.

When you bring home minimum wage and you only work 25-30 hours per week, you can’t afford that kind of hit to your pay.

And you libs an Obamacare made that happen for thousands of low-income workers. The very people you claim to want to help.

Incompetence doesn’t begin to describe you.

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Our President’s second term is going well as sane Republicans and some not sane like scott join our President.

If you can’t beat him, join him.

What is your exit strategy on your civil war cons?

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Tib

It is all about intentions with the progs. Non performing government programs would be eliminated except for libs intentions to improve them. The intend for them to work, when they don’t, they intend to fix them, when that doesn’t work, they intend to focus like a laser on them, when that doesn’t work they intend to fund them better. There is never an end.

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No scandals, no attacks on the homeland, solving problems like health care, immigration and guns, etc….

The facts are in and the President is winning and annihilating the gop.

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md

Next they will get cocaine approved for coverage under Obamacare, after all, it will probably be less costly to maintain the addiction than treat it. Put them on a maintenance dosage. Just depends on who in government writes the guidelines for addiction care, a medically oriented bureaucrat or a pointy headed accountant.

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“No scandals,”

Fast and Furious, Benghazi murder to our ambassador

“no attacks on the homeland,”

Even a broken clock will be right twice a day

“solving problems like health care,”

Costs (still) rising out of control, see Kyle’s article above, see my post above, CBO now says it will add to the deficit instead of saving money, local taxes diverted or increased to pay for it, and getalife calls the problem “solved”.

“immigration”

I’m sorry, has something been passed yet? Nope.

“and guns,”

I’m sorry, has something been passed yet? Nope. Has something been proposed that will pass Constitutional muster? Nope. Has something been proposed that will actually stop the problem? Nope.

Like I said; you have to be on drugs to think President Incompetent is solving problems.

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No more failed occupations called nation building, no collapses, no endless hearings, no cheating on wife.

While you cons are having your lil civil war, you might want to tell that hypocrite called the newt to go find a job.

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“Like I said; you have to be on drugs to think President Incompetent is solving problems”

Getalife is a true believer. You take him too seriously.

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“WTF?”

Dude don’t even try to understand it.

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Thulsa

Yes, intellectual wannabe’s, not ready for prime time.

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getalife is proof positive that some people should never start drinking.

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I can think of a number of people in their 50s that are working just because they need the health benefits. They would rather be retired or semi-retired but they can’t get affordable health insurance. Wouldn’t it be better for everyone if we could decouple our jobs and our health insurance? BTW, Universal’s part-time employees are getting a hideous deal under their plan. What part-time worker wants to pay $936.00 a year for a plan that caps services to that extent? You might as well pay out of pocket. Universal, the $1 billion company, is most likely dropping it because their employees are recognizing it for the rip-off that it is. Now they can conveniently blame Obamacare.

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To all of the liberals who have contacted me recently to inquire about retracting their vote for the 2012 presidential election and put an end to the mindless assault on their earnings; allow me to first apologize for not responding to you sooner, the volume of mail I have been getting is overwhelming. Secondly, let me say that I am not going to gloat that I told you so and you instead chose to hop aboard the moron train and listen to the tower of babble.

It’s too late. But here is what we can do to prepare the battlefield for the next time around. The most important thing to remember; when a dummycrat opens it’s mouth, a lie will soon emerge. They do not respect you at all and will dis you in a heartbeat with their lying promises. Next, you should check out their net worth. Notice how their bank accounts have blossomed while yours is empty? Um, whose side do you think they are on? That’s right, their side.

How do we take our country back and give you more of your hard earned money? First thing in the morning, go to your local election board and register as a Republican! That’s right, you feel better already! Now go find a friend and get them to do the same. Together, you, me and your friend will take back this country from these socialist hypocrites!

Now stop emailing me.

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MarkV,

Bruno and others have frequently pointed out the fallacies of your nonsense. Why pile on?

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The sticker shock issue should be the least of the libs worries. Wait until The Fine Martyrs start their jihad. It’s like the gun rights issue; you want your fine, come and get it. (Speaking muslim so the obozobots can understand.)

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“I do not have the patience to talk to corporate media but it would go something like this:”- getalife

And that’s a real shame. Cause I’m sure there are plenty of S&P 500 companies with an empty podium just waiting for getalife to talk to and lecture them.

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Numbers r us,

Or those employees can go out and get their own major medical coverage for roughly the same price. Most of universals employees are probably students in their 20s or late teens if they are anything like the employees at Six Flags. A major medical plan for a 20 year old male is $76.95 monthly with a $2750 major hospitalization deductible. After deductible and co-insurance the coverage is unlimited meaning it will pay millions.

So yeah. They could get their own coverage. Or is that just asking too much responsibility of them?

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“Hillary Clinton will make millions talking to them.”

While getalife and Hillary are on the same intellectual level I do have to admit that getalife is far more entertaining- cept when Hillary is regaling us with war stories of her dodging a hailfire of bullets in Bosnia.

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Hillary is MUCH more intelligent than getalife.

At least she speaks in complete and properly formatted sentences.

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Maybe I just should have written that she writes a better than a 5th grade level, md.

Getalife?

Not so much.

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“At least she speaks in complete and properly formatted sentences.”

I’m bad about run on sentences sometimes. I hope no one puts me in run on sentence timeout corner for it.

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“Previously, if you waited until you were sick before seeking insurance, you were (rightly) turned away. Now, you can just pay the fine until you’re sick, then no one can turn you away. Looks like a plan.”

That’s true Bruno but even then if you have a condition its going to be included in your premium as I understand it. So if someone gets cancer and needs coverage they can get it. Its just that their premium may end up being $20,000 a month.

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Ti: Those low-cost plans are perfect for everyday health issues, some emergencies and low cost prescription coverage. They cover the people just enetering the job market and are not designed to be carried across someone’s lifetime.

TD: Or those employees can go out and get their own major medical coverage for roughly the same price. Most of universals employees are probably students in their 20s or late teens if they are anything like the employees at Six Flags. A major medical plan for a 20 year old male is $76.95 monthly with a $2750 major hospitalization deductible. After deductible and co-insurance the coverage is unlimited meaning it will pay millions.

I really think some of these Libs have gone completely off the deep end. Not everyone needs the same exact insurance coverage, and it makes no sense to mandate a one-size-fits-all policy chosen by the government. For them to belittle the plans you guys mentioned is insane.

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Cheesy: Liberals also believe we should not be the only developed nation on Earth without Universal Healthcare.
———-

Idiots!

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So if someone gets cancer and needs coverage they can get it. Its just that their premium may end up being $20,000 a month.

If that’s the case, then they still won’t have insurance and won’t be able to pay, which is sort of the system we have now isn’t it?

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“If that’s the case, then they still won’t have insurance and won’t be able to pay, which is sort of the system we have now isn’t it?”

One of the differences as best as I can tell is that those that currently choose to have no or minimum coverage because they are younger and healthier will now have to pay for a plan they probably won’t use much.

And if they have a decent job, they also now get to subsidize those that choose not to work or choose to remain in lower paying jobs…..just think about it, one can choose to be a gang banger on the southside of Chicago and some poor smuck working his butt off in Atlanta will be paying for his healthcare……

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Bruno,

I’m a gonna be a regular when I get time. Also I’m not a big fan of those low cost employer sponsored plans either but at least its something that’s being offered. And as I said they do have the choice of not getting that plan and getting a plan on their own which covers far more in the way of catastrophic events. Is it just me or do liberals hate it when people have freedom of choice with abortion being the single exception?

If that’s the case, then they still won’t have insurance and won’t be able to pay, which is sort of the system we have now isn’t it?

Hillbilly D,

My point exactly. Now I don’t know for sure that that is how its going to be. It could be as Bruno suggests where there will be some subsidization. I just know that that is what I’m hearing and that is also how the state insurance pools work.

Also the trend is already starting where the big thing now is to train agents on Erisa so that they can show employers how to give their employees a set amount of money pre-tax to allow them to purchase their own insurance. That is the widely expected trend- that many employers will drop group coverage alltogether and instead give their employees a pre-tax allowance to buy their own insurance.

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My own guess is that employer coverage will decrease and in the long run, nothing much else will change. I think the insurance companies are the only people who benefit from this. They will raise rates on everybody and just as many people will be without coverage as before.

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Don’t think we played any Jim Croce lately:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0t4i7frhNUs

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Jim and Maury in their prime:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS_Fj47-Dp4

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I try to keep my comments short and on point but will admit you got me.

Hillary Clinton is smarter.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBGrBmA5LCo

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Ain’t Obozocare grand? Just check the results. Higher health insurance costs, fewer businesses offering insurance to employees, exploding deficits, vastly underestimated costs.

Obozo: Failure.

Obozo voters: Idiots.

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@Bruno….”JDW–In the PWC study I linked, they estimated that $1.2 T of the $2.2 T spent on healthcare in the year of the study was wasted. Not sure how you ran your corporation, but that is an unacceptable number. Without all of the waste, we could give everyone Lexus care for half the cost. So, while you and others think the answer to our healthcare woes is to force more suckers to pay for the waste, I see things differently.”

I completely agree the waste in our health care system is unacceptable. I also know that government and business are much different…if this were a business Obama would have fired The House long ago. That means it is tougher to get large numbers of people to change which of course means you have to do it in increments.

That is what ACA is an increment. There will have to be further changes to root out that $1.2 billion but unlike you I think the ACA will get some of it and slow the rate of growth in costs.

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Pleeeeease….that’s not health insurance that was dropped. It was a false sense of security. If anything major happened to anyone with one of those policies, you might as well call a bankruptcy lawyer at the same time you’re calling the ambulance. Insurance is supposed to cover catastrophic things that you wouldn’t normally have the means to cover yourself. Most people, especially those who are employed, can borrow $5000 if they need to.

As for the argument that employers are just waiting to drop insurance–why haven’t they done it already? They haven’t been mandated to offer insurance in the past, but they still do. Now, suddenly, they don’t want to offer it for their employees. Sounds like partisan logic to me. The reality is that to attract the best applicants, they will need to offer it, just like in yesterday’s world.

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