Why it’s not Agenda 21 that should worry you
Randal O’Toole of the Cato Institute was in town today offering a novel explanation for the housing bubble that resulted in the 2008 financial panic and subsequent Great Recession. O’Toole argued the culprit was not loose monetary policy, complex derivatives, greed, poor lending standards, lax government regulation, shoddy ratings for mortgage-backed securities or any of the other usual suspects.
Instead, he said strict land-use policies in certain states made housing prices begin skyrocketing in toward the end of the 20th century, to levels that were ultimately unsustainable. He said it was the burst bubble in those states, circa 2006-07, that led to the financial crash of 2008 — and, following that, depressed housing prices in states without so strict land-use policies, such as Georgia, beginning in 2008-09.
I’ll offer a more thorough explanation of O’Toole’s argument after I’ve read his new book and, in the interest of fairness, I urge you to refrain from trying to shoot down his argument before you’ve heard the whole thing. But I wanted to go ahead and draw your attention today to his thoughts on the popular contemporary bogeyman for strict land-use policies: the United Nations’ Agenda 21.
Agenda 21 is a document drawn up at a 1992 U.N. conference in Rio de Janeiro, and it has become a popular target of ire for some people who believe it is an attempt at social-engineering on the local level by a transnational, unelected quasi-government. It was the subject of a presentation at the Georgia Capitol hosted by then-Senate Majority Leader Chip Rogers, for which the since-resigned Rogers took much grief.
But O’Toole explained today that it’s “not really true” that Agenda 21 represents a novel threat.
“These ideas go back to 1961,” he said. “They were in the playbook [for urban planners] for 30 years before Agenda 21″ was written.
(In this paper published in December 2007, O’Toole not only listed on page 10 some of the pre-Agenda 21 laws to which he referred today. He also described the way land-use policies were creating a bubble; interestingly, he cited a 2005 New York Times column by Paul Krugman that noted housing prices had risen the fastest in what Krugman called “the zoned zone.”)
While O’Toole disagrees with the goals of urban planners expressed in Agenda 21 — regulating land use to force more Americans into high-density housing, for example — he pins the blame on the urban planners themselves.
“I don’t regard the United Nations as the threat at all,” O’Toole said. He further suggested that people who, like him, oppose such land-use policies do themselves and their cause a disservice when they invoke a globalist conspiracy to explain policies born much closer to home.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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218 comments Add your comment
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
1:42 pm
Nah, it was karter and klinton.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 19th, 2013
1:43 pm
LOL, take the blame off the bankers and put it squarely on government and government regulation!
Conservatives are hard at work with the SPIN.
Kyle Wingfield
February 19th, 2013
1:44 pm
And, unsurprisingly, Finn wastes no time attacking an argument he hasn’t even heard yet.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
1:45 pm
He’s got a point, Kalifornia has pretty much priced the common man out of the market using ecoterrorism as their excuse.
That bubble may never pop however because those people is krazy.
Kyle Wingfield
February 19th, 2013
1:46 pm
Aesop: Actually, he doesn’t even blame the CRA. His argument is that housing prices only rose to the point of being unaffordable for the middle class and working class because land-use policies restricted housing supply.
As I said in the OP, I’ll present his argument more fully after I’ve read his book. I got a pretty good idea of it during his presentation today and a short interview afterward, but I want to be sure I got the whole thing.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 19th, 2013
1:48 pm
I’ll offer a more thorough explanation of O’Toole’s argument after I’ve read his new book
From one jumper to another. I think most Op/Ed writers try to get a little understanding of the issue before posting a commentary on it. I’m not an Op/Ed writer.
Kyle Wingfield
February 19th, 2013
1:51 pm
Well, Finn, you certainly do demonstrate regularly that you don’t try to understand issues before you comment on them.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
1:52 pm
Kyle – CRA was created to try and ease some of the restrictions put in place by the land use policy. It’s another liberal vicious circle. They try undo the original damage by inflicting more damage. You can apply that theory to any of their policies.
md
February 19th, 2013
1:55 pm
Well, I haven’t heard his argument yet, but from what I witnessed inside the casino that was the housing boom it better be a good one…….
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 19th, 2013
1:55 pm
Made this argument time and time again while on the county commission.
It should not be the role of government to determine housing values based on zoning requirements.
And Agenda 21 is just more black helicopters circling above anti-government extremists’ homes.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 19th, 2013
1:56 pm
Enter your comments hereWe need a thorough understanding of the “why” of land use policies and restrictions in the first place.
Are they meant to appease the developers? the EPA/tree huggers?
Is it meant to appease local government efficiency?
For example: you generally don’t have to police warehouse districts on weekdays as much as you do in after hours when things are quiet and fewer people about to catch thieves
Another example: your sewage and water needs in residential areas are quite different from those business districts – you need more robust electrical utilities in business districts than residential? Time of day is a factor as well – people are at home at night and on weekends but they are in the business districts during working hours.
Is it meant to appease homeowners who want to keep the noise of business life/work out of their neighborhoods?
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
1:56 pm
Look at health care for instance. The liberals jacked up the price of it by regulating it’s free commerce and allowing the tort lawyers to run rampant upon it. And now they’ve inflicted the maximum damage to it, with obozocare, to fix their original damages. It’s truly insane what we allow them to do.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 19th, 2013
1:58 pm
CRA was created to try and ease some of the restrictions put in place by the land use policy.
total BS. The CRA was put in place to force bankers, who take deposits in one neighborhood, to make loans available to people and businesses in those very neighborhoods. They used to take deposits in the poor neighborhoods and then only lend in the upper class neighborhoods. Both the poor neighborhoods and the rich neighborhoods have their share of risky borrowers.
Bruno
February 19th, 2013
2:00 pm
Instead, he said strict land-use policies in certain states made housing prices begin skyrocketing in toward the end of the 20th century, to levels that were ultimately unsustainable. He said it was the burst bubble in those states, circa 2006-07, that led to the financial crash of 2008 — and, following that, depressed housing prices in states without so strict land-use policies, such as Georgia, beginning in 2008-09.
Kyle–I’ll have to look into Mr. O’Toole’s ideas more before commenting in any detail, but at first glance it comes across as overly simplistic. Prices depend upon market conditions, and it’s hard to see how land-use laws were much of a factor in the housing bubble build-up, especially here in GA. In particular, I own properties in Gwinnett and Cobb counties, and both are now worth about half of what they were appraised for in 2005.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 19th, 2013
2:00 pm
determine housing values based on zoning requirements.
I’m glad you made the argument against this cause that doesn’t make any sense at all.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
2:01 pm
I wouldn’t write off the UN as not harmful just yet. The problem is that liberals worship them and their dangerous ideas. They are the main drivers of this climate hoax, and when that finally collapses in a heap, which it will, the libs may well just pick up Agenda 21 and run with it.
They’ve got to have some way of exerting control over us.
Dusty
February 19th, 2013
2:02 pm
Kyle,
Just to be sure I know what we are talking about here, explain “land use”. Is that a reference to zoning issues, Federal mandated environmental issues, national and state parks, flood plains? To what is O’Toole referring exactly?
Kyle Wingfield
February 19th, 2013
2:09 pm
Bruno: He’s referring chiefly to land-use policies in states like California and Florida, where the bubble was far worse. The decline in prices in less-regulated states like Georgia was less severe on the whole (though there are always, of course, exceptions) and began in earnest after the financial crisis, whereas the decline in the more-regulated states began before the crisis. According to his theory, the decline in the more-regulated states drove the crisis, which eventually spread to places like Georgia.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 19th, 2013
2:09 pm
from Krugman’s article:
Meanwhile, the U.S. economy has become deeply dependent on the housing bubble. The economic recovery since 2001 has been disappointing in many ways, but it wouldn’t have happened at all without soaring spending on residential construction, plus a surge in consumer spending largely based on mortgage refinancing. Did I mention that the personal savings rate has fallen to zero?
banker greed
banker scams
banker greed
banker scams
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 19th, 2013
2:09 pm
“I’m glad you made the argument against this cause that doesn’t make any sense at all.”
Nice to see your inability to grasp the obvious remains intact, Finn.
Kyle Wingfield
February 19th, 2013
2:10 pm
Dusty: Mostly zoning issues — restrictions on where housing is built, and of what kind (i.e. single-family homes vs. multi-family homes).
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
2:10 pm
Dusty – Land use issues describes almost any method a liberal chooses to exert control over your domain. With the ultimate goal, of course being that it becomes their domain. Property rights is another thing that rubs them raw, like the 2nd Amendment does.
Look at this “energy efficient” home fatwa of theirs. Installing “smart” meters on your home to monitor your energy usage? Dictating certain standards of “efficiency” before you can resell it?
And then go to Washington, DC and look at all the raggedy old buildings that have an AC unit hanging out of every window. Not only do they not care about energy efficiency, they use the most expensive and least efficient methods of providing for their own comforts while they dictate to the rest of us.
MANGLER
February 19th, 2013
2:11 pm
That restricted housing supply you speak of … would that be the 60 month supply of speculation tract built single family vacancies that plagued many suburbs, or the over development of in town condo’s that plagued many cities? I have not once heard anyone say “gee, I just can’t find a house or a condo anywhere because the supply is so restricted”.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 19th, 2013
2:11 pm
They’ve got to have some way of exerting control over us.
The current way is working just fine – it’s called Karl Rove, Fox News, Rush Limbaugh. The trifecta of our ownership of the Cons.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 19th, 2013
2:13 pm
The decline in prices in less-regulated states like Georgia
Well, you can pop a trailer home up just about anywhere, right Tiberius?
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
2:16 pm
banker greed
banker scams
krugman and finn don’t know that the federal government is the one paying these banks to refinance the mortgages? Uh, yes they do. It’s that take responsibility for your own actions problem that brings about such gibberish from them.
Kyle Wingfield
February 19th, 2013
2:17 pm
Mangler: Are you talking about pre-bubble or post-bubble?
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 19th, 2013
2:17 pm
Two new reasons for Cons to hate NBC:
David Axelrod, a former senior adviser to President Obama, will join NBC News and MSNBC as a senior political analyst across “all broadcasts and platforms of both networks,” according to to the network.
He joins former White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs, who signed on as a contributor to both networks last month.
indigo
February 19th, 2013
2:17 pm
Kyle, I’m not surprised you’d tout the views of someone who denies Big Banks greed and poor lending standards in favor of some quirky “strict land-use policies that no one has ever heard of.
Trolls Bane
February 19th, 2013
2:20 pm
He does have a valid point, in some aspects.
Many local communities have created a zoning scheme that restricts the land available for any commercial enterprise or productive enterprise. This artificial restriction in the supply causes the price of this property to be much much higher than it would otherwise be, raising barriers to entry.
However, I would disagree with the “percieved” right to live in a humongous mcmansion. And the current trend is for more denser living arrangements… condos and townhouses …
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 19th, 2013
2:21 pm
What made the restricted land use areas zoned for residential so restricted? Could it have been due to banks pushing subprime loans without any proof of income? Banks pushing loans that involved fraud by steering people, who qualified for sound loans, into risky loans?
Could all these new housing needs perhaps had something to do with supply problems which led to rising prices/bubble?
Nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
MANGLER
February 19th, 2013
2:22 pm
Since zoning is mentioned, we can discuss Houston, which has no zoning codes. They still suffered a housing bubble and subsequent deflation of values. However, with Houston (as with Texas in general) there were enough low wage jobs being created as a derivative of the “growth” industry (similar to the one Atlanta enjoyed since the Olympics) that the influx of people moving from lost manufacturing jobs in the rust belt skewed those numbers a little. They also have horrid traffic and air pollution that now rivals Los Angeles and to compensate for the sprawl (of those restricted access housing units) all new highways are toll roads.
Or one could look at Portland, OR, or Seattle. They both have very strict land use regulations and high density zones. The cost for housing is the same based on median income, which is also higher there than here. Seattle’s bubble didn’t crash their local economy, since it is diverse and strong. Yet Atlanta’s economy took a wallup, since it is apparently based on logistics and complaining about the traffic.
Trolls Bane
February 19th, 2013
2:23 pm
I would also have to add, many many local communities have zoning schemes that maximize the land for housing … and usually specify a minmum square footage, and thus price, and minimize the land for commerial / productive enterprise.
The local communities have a perverse incentive … each mcmansion brings in 1500 to 3000 or more tax dollars per year … 20 houses on a 10 acre plot is 60,000 per year instead of much less for a single commercial or productive enterprise on the same land.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 19th, 2013
2:23 pm
What the guy is arguing is that the bubble wouldn’t have burst if bankers could have gone on forever writing those risky/bad loans. But, the restrictions which led to limited supply contributed to the bubble reaching an end point and a burst.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 19th, 2013
2:25 pm
“Well, you can pop a trailer home up just about anywhere, right Tiberius?”
No, you cannot, Finn.
Many communities have restrictions not only on where trailer homes can be located, but in our county no NEW trailer homes can be brought in. Existing ones are grandfathered into the zoning laws.
JDW
February 19th, 2013
2:25 pm
@Kyle…seems a bit dodgy to me. Real Estate like anything else is driven by supply and demand. Land use policies not withstanding I don’t believe there was ever a shortage of supply anywhere.
Seems to me the bubble was caused by artificial demand…too many people trying to flip houses they had no intention of living in…and fueled by the loose money and low standards that let them get away with it.
As for the hardest hit areas…seems like California, Florida, Nevada have lots of things in common other than land use policy. They have long been and continue to be hotbeds for second and vacation homes for example.
Kyle Wingfield
February 19th, 2013
2:26 pm
indigo: I have written many times in the past that imo the private sector played a large role in the bubble and crash. Nothing about this post endorses O’Toole’s view — not least because, as I wrote in the OP, I’m not yet completely sure I understand. But I thought it was worth mentioning — particularly the part about Agenda 21, which no one seems to be discussing.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 19th, 2013
2:26 pm
“What the guy is arguing is that the bubble wouldn’t have burst if bankers could have gone on forever writing those risky/bad loans.”
No, he’s not, but if that’s the only way you can make a comment, by changing the argument, please continue, Finn.
MANGLER
February 19th, 2013
2:26 pm
Both pre and post bubble. Prices were going up on land and buildings since the speculative nature of investing switched from commodities into housing. This caused an explosion of speculative construction. When that base fell through, the speculation went into energy and oil. The speculation that causes the spikes in “value” of items does it’s damage and then moves on to another area. This time, the area left behind affected people who had nothing to do with the speculation. Typically when it’s a hedge fund or a manufacturing sector, those who get burned are the ones with the most stakes invested into that system. When the system was everyone’s houses, that packed a punch felt by many more people.
Kyle Wingfield
February 19th, 2013
2:27 pm
And, indigo: Just because you haven’t heard of the zoning restrictions in CA, FL and elsewhere doesn’t mean they didn’t contribute to the bubble and crash.
Kyle Wingfield
February 19th, 2013
2:29 pm
No, Finn, what I think he’s arguing is that there wouldn’t have been so many risky/bad loans if prices hadn’t skyrocketed due to artificial limits on supply. It’s less risky to lend $100,000 to someone than $250,000.
indigo
February 19th, 2013
2:30 pm
Kyle – 2:26
The UN has been in business for many years now.
At NO time have they ever made any credible threat to, in any way, take over part or all of American law.
You’re not going to darkly hint that Agenda 21 is an evil UN plot against Americans, are you?
Kyle Wingfield
February 19th, 2013
2:31 pm
Mangler: Certainly, there was some speculation in housing. But does that really explain why prices in metro areas with strict zoning regulations grew at a much faster rate than those in metro areas without them — particularly when the less-regulated areas, such as Atlanta and Houston, were experiencing much faster population growth at that time?
Kyle Wingfield
February 19th, 2013
2:32 pm
indigo @ 2:30: “You’re not going to darkly hint that Agenda 21 is an evil UN plot against Americans, are you?”
DID YOU EVEN READ THE POST?!?!?!?
JDW
February 19th, 2013
2:32 pm
@Kyle…”particularly the part about Agenda 21″
That is because it is really not worth discussing…unless you are a Tea Party fueled Wingnut that sees bogeymen behind every bush….I mean really it is kind of hard to argue that sustainable development is bad unless you are a fruitcake.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 19th, 2013
2:33 pm
“DID YOU EVEN READ THE POST?!?!?!?”
Kyle, don’t you remember the lawyer mantra? “Never ask a question you don’t already know the answer to.”
indigo
February 19th, 2013
2:35 pm
Kyle – 2:32
Yes, I read the post.
I also read your Agenda 21 “which no one seems to be discussing” line.
hint hint hint hint hint hint
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 19th, 2013
2:37 pm
what I think he’s arguing is that there wouldn’t have been so many risky/bad loans if prices hadn’t skyrocketed due to artificial limits on supply
Well, I disagree and take the opposite view. I think the bed was made to let bankers write bad loans with the advent of MBSs. In effect, the promise of collateralizing any risky loans removed “risk” from the equation for the bankers. Even the riskiest loans could be sold with AAA ratings.
The greed and fraud inherent in this is what led to the supply issues as people started buying hosues who couldn’t afford them and people found it much easier to buy houses for the purpose of flipping them.
indigo
February 19th, 2013
2:37 pm
Kyle – 2:27
And, if zoning restrictions had made a meaningful contribution to the bubble and crash, I’m sure we ALL would have heard of this long ago.
Don't Tread
February 19th, 2013
2:38 pm
Good luck forcing me to live in a tiny box under some dictatorial rule set.
If the “urban planners”, UN or otherwise, don’t like the fact that I have “too much land” to suit their little socialist desires, they can shove it.
Kyle Wingfield
February 19th, 2013
2:38 pm
“I mean really it is kind of hard to argue that sustainable development is bad unless you are a fruitcake.”
Nice way to set the terms for debate, JDW. Agree with JDW=ok. Disagree=fruitcake.
Why is sustainable development necessarily a good thing? Is it good if it means people can’t live the way the majority of them want to live? Is it good if it leads to higher housing prices that represent a hardship on working- and middle-class families?
The fact that the U.N. is not to blame for contemporary thinking among urban planners does not necessarily mean the urban planners have it right.
Kyle Wingfield
February 19th, 2013
2:39 pm
“hint hint hint hint hint hint”
Well, we do have a conspiracy theorist among us after all. Just not the kind I expected…
Dusty
February 19th, 2013
2:40 pm
Well, to tell the truth I have not been madly interested in what caused the housing bubble. I just thought somebody built too many houses! What do I know!! (Nevermind saying Nothing!)
Who’s to blame? The people that built them!! I guess no one is going ask me to write a book or make a speech like Mr. O’Toole. Obviously!
In the meantime, I think I shall build a chicken house in the back yard. Love those chicks, except for cornish hens. Let’s see how freedom rings or roosters crow. Or maybe i should ask Mr. O’Toole He’s not a dull tool. (Please don’t put me in moderation. I promise to do better.)
Off into the wild, blue yonder…..
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 19th, 2013
2:40 pm
If the guy’s report/book applies no blame to the effects of MBSs and fraudulent lending (replete with the praise of the rating agencies) then you know he is trying to show a way for what I posted at 2:23.
Kyle Wingfield
February 19th, 2013
2:41 pm
Well, Dusty, some zoning restrictions apply to which houses can have chickens in the back yard.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 19th, 2013
2:43 pm
“And, if zoning restrictions had made a meaningful contribution to the bubble and crash, I’m sure we ALL would have heard of this long ago.”
Yes, because as we all know, no one can ever come up with a new theory once liberals have decided what has caused something to occur.
Just Saying..
February 19th, 2013
2:48 pm
” …invoke a globalist conspiracy to explain policies…”
Somebody knows their audience…
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 19th, 2013
2:59 pm
Dusty’s breaking chicken ordinances?
I can’t talk my wife into letting me build a coop. But we can get eggs from friends who have them.
Pizzaman
February 19th, 2013
3:03 pm
Sorry Kyle! It was and still is all the things you mentioned id para 1 not agenda 21 or land use policies. Greed, pure and simple!
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 19th, 2013
3:04 pm
Zoning restrictions and limited supply led bankers to throw their ages-old risk aversion out the window and start writing loans with no proof of income and no money down?
If that’s what it takes for you all to sleep at night….
JDW
February 19th, 2013
3:10 pm
@Kyle…”Why is sustainable development necessarily a good thing?”
Because by definition if development is unsustainable there is an inevitable collapse….why wouldn’t you want to prevent that?
“The fact that the U.N. is not to blame for contemporary thinking among urban planners does not necessarily mean the urban planners have it right.”
I don’t see how you avoid urban planning…I mean have you been to Houston..it is really disjointed and inefficient and not a lot of fun. Here in Atlanta we have some of those same issues and they lead to bad things like traffic, smog and incredibly low livability quotients. As for planners…like any other discipline it is an ongoing process. They don’t have it right, just better than before given the demands of the future.
“Is it good if it means people can’t live the way the majority of them want to live?”
Bottom line is that if a majority of the people…voters…don’t like it there will be a change.
“Is it good if it leads to higher housing prices that represent a hardship on working- and middle-class families?”
I see no tangible evidence of that.
Agenda 21 is a is a non-binding, voluntarily implemented action plan regarding sustainable development. It is not a bogeyman, it is not a take over agenda and it is not a UN driven plot. It is a framework that can be used as a tool to build better communities.
I don’t see how that should be controversial…it is just one more thing for a select number of people to harp on that wastes time.
getalife
February 19th, 2013
3:12 pm
You cons are losing it.
Get a grip Kyle and talk about the gop civil war:
“Tea Party Portrays Karl Rove As A Nazi” HP.
They put rove in a nazi uniform.
Too funny
Kyle Wingfield
February 19th, 2013
3:12 pm
JDW: Sorry, I should have said “sustainable development”…obviously, it’s one group’s idea of what’s sustainable. (No, that group is not the U.N.!)
JDW
February 19th, 2013
3:13 pm
@Kyle…”some zoning restrictions apply to which houses can have chickens in the back yard”
As they should…have you been in a chicken house? I would be incredibly pi$$ed if one moved in next door and I am guessing you wouldn’t like it much either.
getalife
February 19th, 2013
3:18 pm
I read the economists that predicted the collapse to know the cause of the collapse.
“Their is plenty of blame to go around” but I want to see the list of those people.
atler8
February 19th, 2013
3:19 pm
Kyle,
There is a big elephant in the room you and others who talk about the more restrictive land use policies prevalent in some states or metro areas seem to be ignoring. That elephant is “geography”.
In the case of much of the heavily populated areas of Florida, there are restrictions put in place based on the close proximity of the below ground water table or tidal lowlands. It’s just common sense not to build on land where the natural tendency leans heavily towards it remaining a swamp or a flood prone area.
In California, Oregon & Washington State, there is a a different geographic factor at play that heavily influences development & where it can go. That component is called “elevation change”.
If you were to lay a map with elevation contours over a street map of places like greater L.A., San Francisco, San Diego, Portland or Seattle, you would see that many areas that are smack in the middle of or vey close to the cities or metros are not readily buildable because of the extreme changes in elevation as shown by the contour lines on a geographical map.
Additionally out west, many of the edge city areas are at a higher fire risk than the inner core areas of the metro. Thus, the cost of insurance is prohibitively high for a continued willy nilly sprawl that the population & housing price pressures there would seem to support.
By the way, both metro Portland & metro Seattle boomed in population during the last decade despite their more restrictive land development codes so you can’t just say that a more laissaz faire area, such as Houston or Atlanta is going to have an automatic built in advantage toward population growth.
JDW
February 19th, 2013
3:20 pm
@Kyle…yes there are differenct views on sustainable and quality of life for instance. Take bike paths. When I lived in CA I loved to ride. Every road has a bike path and there are numerous trails and off road paths available. Here my bike rusted out. It is damn near impossible to ride. You ride on the road you get killed. To find a path you have to drive 20 miles.
Do bike paths cost money…yes which is why they don’t exist here. Little things like that add up over time and really should be part of the planning process.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
3:21 pm
Democratic Colorado state Rep. Joe Salazar apologized Monday for suggesting some women are so unjustifiably afraid of being raped that they are liable to start shooting wildly.
I would say that the libs have some kooks too but they all are.
getalife
February 19th, 2013
3:24 pm
Since the tea party is targeting gop to purge, I think they should look at the list of “there is plenty of blame to go around” and target those gop too.
The dems should do the same thing and break up the banks like the fed official said today.
ad
February 19th, 2013
3:29 pm
It would be interesting to compare the housing bust for areas with strict land use rules vs. areas that have plenty of land available for housing. Georgia, for example, seems to allow new neighborhoods anywhere. I don’t know about Arizona or Nevada, but they seem to have plenty of land, although water might be a restriction. Those places got hit very hard by the housing bubble bursting. Places with higher population density and more restrictions, such as New York, seem to have not experienced the degree of price declines of less restrictive areas.
getalife
February 19th, 2013
3:33 pm
Why did Georgia have the most banks collapse Kyle?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 19th, 2013
3:36 pm
ad, you cannot equate Arizona or Georgia to New York when it comes to this subject.
People move to places that have space, climate and opportunity, and housing naturally follows as a by-product. New York fails 2 of the 3 criteria. You cannot have a building boom when the area is already built or where people are not moving to, therefore, speculation is a lot less rampant.
md
February 19th, 2013
3:38 pm
“David Axelrod, a former senior adviser to President Obama, will join NBC News and MSNBC as a senior political analyst across “all broadcasts and platforms of both networks,” according to to the network.”
I didn’t realize he ever left……..
Thulsa Doom
February 19th, 2013
3:38 pm
“Instead, he said strict land-use policies in certain states made housing prices begin skyrocketing in toward the end of the 20th century, to levels that were ultimately unsustainable.”
Kyle,
Interesting that you bring this up. In Sowell’s book about the housing boom and bust he goes into this as one of the root causes. The reason was precisely as you describe- sky high housing prices concentrated mostly in cities with notoriously high housing prices brought on by restrictive land use and zoning ordinances.
The fascinating thing is that it was liberal policies in many of these cities- especially in California coastal and central cities like San Fran, Berkely, San Jose, and on and on that made housing unaffordable. In the name of terms such as “smart growth”, “eco friendly growth policies”, etc. what the liberals did in these cities was effectively restrict the amount of land available for housing. And for this abuse through govt they enriched themselves in the way of high values for their own homes and a barrier against newcomers. And for doing this they paid no price and suffered no consequences for their decisions which only affected outsiders and newcomers.
Well then of course the mantra that then came along later on was the mantra of “affordable housing for Americans” when in these selected cities and areas that liberals artificially created the high housing programs to begin with. Conversely housing costs were dirt cheap in cities that had little to no land zoning ordinances. Houston would be a prime example.
The guy is dead on right. The need for “affordable housing” brought on by artificially high housing prices in selected areas throughout the country is what got the ball started with all the effort to ensure “affordable housing”. And the irony is that it generally started in liberal cities with exorbitant housing costs all because the liberals cut off most of the available land for housing due their fancy notions of “smart growth” housing policies for which they paid no price and suffered no repercussions.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 19th, 2013
3:39 pm
“Why did Georgia have the most banks collapse Kyle?”
A large amount of incredibly stupid people being appointed to bank boards that didn’t understand banking basics.
josef
February 19th, 2013
3:42 pm
DUSTY
I heard you were looking for me. How may I be of service, ma’am?
getalife
February 19th, 2013
3:43 pm
“A large amount of incredibly stupid people being appointed to bank boards that didn’t understand banking basics.”
Wrong.
Try again.
md
February 19th, 2013
3:47 pm
” When I lived in CA I loved to ride. Every road has a bike path and there are numerous trails and off road paths available. ”
“Do bike paths cost money…yes which is why they don’t exist here. Little things like that add up over time and really should be part of the planning process.”
Hmmm…is this the same CA that has a budget crisis and cities filing for bankruptcy??
Of course bike paths cost money, and in a balanced budget state like GA it hasn’t been a priority. Evidently it might have been better if it wasn’t a priority out there.
Wants vs needs…..wants vs needs.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 19th, 2013
3:48 pm
The problem with Agenda 21, and frankly everything else associated with modern-day planning ideas, it that when someone sees something that works in one area, they feel the need to implement it in completely different areas that have nothing in common with the area where the idea first worked. It is the usual government response to everything – let’s ignore everything else around us and implement this, and let’s also double down on it because it worked so well there!
Just because basic planning works, doesn’t mean you automatically do even more planning.
Moderation in everything – especially government – is the best way to go.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 19th, 2013
3:49 pm
getalife obviously doesn’t know any bank board members in Georgia, especially since he doesn’t even live here.
Which makes his last post so totally expected.
md
February 19th, 2013
3:54 pm
“Why did Georgia have the most banks collapse Kyle?”
Many were community banks loaning to their communities, but forgot the golden rule of diversification.
And some were just playing the speculation game where they wanted to build up a portfolio quickly in the hopes of being bought out by the big guys that were all in expansion mode.
Aquagirl
February 19th, 2013
3:55 pm
Maybe geta prefers civilized company, not “make a pantsload of money then stick the FDIC with the bill” company.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 19th, 2013
3:56 pm
md, it all comes down to cost / benefits on things such as bike paths. Do you spend hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars for extra right-of-way and construction costs in order to enable a few dozen people? Most would not. California obviously feels differently and will be pay the price for that for years.
Here, we sometimes plan for bike paths where we think they will get the most use. If a new mall is being planned for an area, higher density (lower cost) housing is included in the plan so as to have people who will work at the mall be close enough to it and be able to afford the housing near to it. Bike paths are often included in those plans as those residents / workers will be more willing to use them.
But we don’t go throwing bike paths on state highways.
getalife
February 19th, 2013
3:56 pm
Tiberius,
They knew it was a high profit scam.
The AJC wrote about it so use your 800 bucks a share Google.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 19th, 2013
3:59 pm
I always find it amazing that getalife can assign motive to people whom he has never encountered.
getalife
February 19th, 2013
4:00 pm
“Maybe geta prefers civilized company, not “make a pantsload of money then stick the FDIC with the bill” company.”
Yeah, I don’t hang around white collar criminals like Tiber.
getalife
February 19th, 2013
4:02 pm
BTW, the FDIC sued to recover some of that scam money.
Did your friends pay up Tiber?
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 19th, 2013
4:02 pm
Good luck forcing me to live in a tiny box under some dictatorial rule set.
If the “urban planners”, UN or otherwise, don’t like the fact that I have “too much land” to suit their little socialist desires, they can shove it
Classic Strawman
duke
February 19th, 2013
4:03 pm
O’Toole isn’t saying anything. His “argument” against Agenda 21 is empty. Of course this has been going on since 1961. It’s been going on a lot longer than that. This agenda changes it’s name periodically, as people begin to realize what the old name really stands for; but the plan does not change. Read John Stormer’s book, “None Dare Call It Treason:25 Years Later”. The original book was written in 1964. In 1989 Stormer added 200 pages to cover the intervening years, but he changed nothing in the original part of the text. Nothing needs to be changed. All his analyses and predictions have proved true. These are not conspiracy theories; they are straightforward, well-documented historical facts.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 19th, 2013
4:04 pm
and in a balanced budget state like GA
Wanna know why GA has a balanced budget.
Alot of federal money from blue states.
Georgia is one of the biggest taker states.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
4:05 pm
“We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men” (George Orwell).
And that, my friends, is why I’m here.
getalife
February 19th, 2013
4:05 pm
I think we should cut red State welfare.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
4:05 pm
But I am unable to help cheesy. Too far gone.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 19th, 2013
4:06 pm
A large amount of incredibly stupid people being appointed to bank boards that didn’t understand banking basics.
Good ole boy network is another way of saying it
md
February 19th, 2013
4:06 pm
Tibs….yep, and it makes sense to me to put in payhs in places of recrestion or high density where bikes are a common form of transportation.
The comment was meant more as an illistration of the thought process of some on the left…..that is “I want so someone needs to provide it”.
I can see it as a need in some communities, but for the most part I see it as a want. I’ve been to Amsterdam on several occasions and even they don’t have bike paths all over the city, you ride on the roads downtown and take your chances.
getalife
February 19th, 2013
4:07 pm
“But I am unable to help cheesy. Too far gone.”
Pot to kettle.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 19th, 2013
4:09 pm
I see that Repetitive Poster #2, otherwise known as Cheesy Grits, has been released from daycare.
md
February 19th, 2013
4:09 pm
“Wanna know why GA has a balanced budget.
Alot of federal money from blue states.
Georgia is one of the biggest taker states.”
Do you know the difference between having a balanced budget and being a balanced budget state?
They are NOT the same thing……
getalife
February 19th, 2013
4:10 pm
I did have a family member involved in the housing scam and the stress from his fraud gave him shingles so I do know the scam.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
4:10 pm
At least I have more than one kernel of information to share.
atler8
February 19th, 2013
4:11 pm
Thulsa,
You quote Thomas Sowell who I know lives in California & should recognize that there is much, much more to development policy in that state than his simplistic notion that it’s a result of what the “liberals” want to put in place in order to pursue their eco friendly goals & to correspondingly jack up housing prices.
He’s kidding himself & fooling you with his treatise because many of the land use policies there were set in place decades ago. I might remind you that California only turned Democratic in the 1990’s, long after restrictive land use policy there was already common. Often it was put into place during times when the governorship &/or legislature were controlled by the GOP or at least balanced between the two parties.
Also Thulsa, take a look at what I wrote here at 3:19 about how elevation change plays a major role in west coast development policy. Sowell sees the famed rugged Califlornia geography all around him but his rigid ideology refuses to accept that is it an obvious factor in land policy there.
You cited San Francisco, Berlely & San Jose as examples. I challenge you to do what I suggested at 3:19 and overlay a geographical map with elevation contours over street maps of those cities & see if you can’t figure out what is thus patently obvious regarding their land use policies.
By the way, the city propers (i.e. city limit areas) of both San Francisco & Berkeley were physically pretty much built out by the end of the 1950’s and early 1960’s.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 19th, 2013
4:11 pm
“Wanna know why GA has a balanced budget.”
A law that requires it.
And that goes for every county and municipality within it’s borders as well, Cheesy.
getalife
February 19th, 2013
4:13 pm
“At least I have more than one kernel of information to share.”
Yeah, we learned about pinkos.
indigo
February 19th, 2013
4:19 pm
Tiberius – 3:48
Does this mean that, politically, you’re a centerist?
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 19th, 2013
4:20 pm
A law that requires it.
Without all that Blue state federal money pouring in they wouldn’t manage it.
How did the South get Electricity again ???
Oh yeah Blue northern states did it for them.
Michael H. Smith
February 19th, 2013
4:21 pm
I’m not buying this guy’s “land policy causation argument”, Kyle. From what I’ve read from your review of his “housing bubble burst” explanation, I have no reason for an interest in reading his book; let alone purchasing a copy. Over -inflated-pricing was a mere fraction in the real problem of fraud per se’; which was much bigger and far deeper as the sum, than the any of its’ parts alone.
getalife
February 19th, 2013
4:26 pm
It started after the internet bubble popped and the investors tried to figure out where to invest to make money like the internet.
President Clinton urged invest in green energy.
w bought into the housing scam.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 19th, 2013
4:27 pm
“Without all that Blue state federal money pouring in they wouldn’t manage it.”
There is ZERO proof of that, but speculate without facts all you wish, Cheesy. It’s what you do best, after all.
“How did the South get Electricity again ???”
Yes, by all means, lets go back nearly a century ago to formulate our opinions of the present.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 19th, 2013
4:29 pm
Indigo, you are truly a lost cause.
As Kyle asked earlier:
DO YOU EVEN READ MY POSTS ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
getalife
February 19th, 2013
4:32 pm
Lost me at Cato institute.
Not credible.
Thulsa Doom
February 19th, 2013
4:33 pm
Atler8,
I read your previous post on topography. I’m sorry but that’s not going to explain it all. I’m sure that in certain instances that rapid changes in topography and elevation explain some of the housing restrictions but it doesn’t come anywhere near close to explaining much of it. There are numerous places all over the U.S. where people build into places that have rapidly changing elevations and topographys. So when you take that into account it looks to me like just another reason for urban planners to unustifiably restrict land use. After all look at San Francisco and look at the trolley running up and down those steep hills. They built on those steep hills did they not? Atlanta itself I believe has the 2nd highest elevation among major U.S. cities behind Denver. Yet Peachtree road is built along what was an old Indian trail running along a ridge. And Denver itself is built at quite an elevation. In San Diego I had seen plenty of houses built into the hills overlooking the Naval base. In Birmingham you can drive up a quickly changing topography to a hill or mountain off 280 that overlooks all of B’ham. They built there despite a very quickly changing topography and elevation. There are numerous examples all over the U.S. where your argument doesn’t hold water. And lastly while California may not have turned Dem until just a few decades ago the cities that I mentioned have been Democratic for quite awhile. And of course Repubs aren’t immune from using govt to insulate themselves either.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 19th, 2013
4:34 pm
“Lost me at Cato institute.
Not credible.”
Yeah, ’cause proven, free-market principles don’t even enter your warped world-view, do they, getalife?
Michael H. Smith
February 19th, 2013
4:35 pm
PBS Frontline done a number of very good documentaries on the “housing bubble” and the banking mess from the ’90s to the bubble burst. It will debunk many of the false claims and statements that have been made and continue to be made by blogger on this blog.
Goodnight all.
md
February 19th, 2013
4:40 pm
“Lost me at Cato institute.”
Might be part of the problem. One shouldn’t poo poo info just because of it’s source. One would be wise to look at the info then go off and do one’s own research in order to formulate a better opinion on the subject….not the source.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 19th, 2013
4:40 pm
the U.S. military has already decided they’re essentially useless; all Army and Air Force Exchange Service stores on bases round all cash purchases up or down to the nearest nickel.
Another issue Obama is dead on about.
Its time the penny went the way of the Republican party.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 19th, 2013
4:41 pm
Cato institute is just a tool for Koch brothers and their extreme agenda
Zero credibility
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 19th, 2013
4:42 pm
Something tells me that Cheesy is posting on the wrong blog again.
Either that or random stupidity is running rampant inside his head.
As usual.
Road Scholar
February 19th, 2013
4:42 pm
Kyle: Georgia has land use laws? I thought it was clear cut and build anything…a Walmart (name one that was denied), transit oriented development (where there is no transit), and pave the world (until the price of asphalt grew).
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 19th, 2013
4:43 pm
The Cato Institute has been around a lot longer than the Koch brothers have been involved in politics, Cheesy.
You’d know that if your brain was in gear sometime.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 19th, 2013
4:43 pm
Three out of five “Doubters of Global Warming” interviewed by PBS’s Frontline were funded by, or had some other institutional connection with, the Institute
That is enough right there.
They aren’t credible.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 19th, 2013
4:46 pm
The Cato Institute is an American libertarian think tank headquartered in Washington, D.C. It was founded as the Charles Koch Foundation in 1974
Care to revise your statement ?
Road Scholar
February 19th, 2013
4:46 pm
Cheesey: “How did the South get Electricity again ???
Oh yeah Blue northern states did it for them.”
No someone standing on a hill got struck by lightning! Shazam!
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 19th, 2013
4:47 pm
Dow and S&P close at fresh five-year highs. Dow adds 54 points. Nasdaq and S&P climb 0.7%.
the sky is falling the sky is falling.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 19th, 2013
4:52 pm
“Care to revise your statement ?”
No, because funding doesn’t automatically mean involvement, Cheesy.
Except in your black helicopters circling overhead world.
getalife
February 19th, 2013
4:52 pm
Which part of not credible do you not understand cons?
Once they lose credibility, they have to try to gain it back but they are not even trying.
Thulsa Doom
February 19th, 2013
4:53 pm
Someone not only got out of daycare but they also served their timeout after daycare ended apparently.
md
February 19th, 2013
4:53 pm
“Dow and S&P close at fresh five-year highs. Dow adds 54 points. Nasdaq and S&P climb 0.7%. ”
What does one expect when the money goes from the printing presses to the market…..one best be watching their portfolio as another bubble may be forming.
Can Bernanke time the withdrawal is the question…….
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 19th, 2013
4:54 pm
“Three out of five “Doubters of Global Warming” interviewed by PBS’s Frontline were funded by, or had some other institutional connection with, the Institute
That is enough right there.”
So conversely, if I pick out three out of five proponents of man-made global warming, and they’re funded by governments who are advocating more regulations which will give them more control over people, I can dismiss them as easily as you do and be just as correct, right, Cheesy?
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 19th, 2013
4:57 pm
“Care to revise your statement ?”
Then you have failed.
No, because funding doesn’t automatically mean involvement, Cheesy.
I’m sure the Koch brothers named the institute after one of them and gave it a bunch of money but weren’t involved in any other way.
Seriously do you guys listen to yourselves ?
Chalk one up to being wrong but not man enough to admit it.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
5:00 pm
One would be wise to look at the info then go off and do one’s own research
Come on, md, the last thing these liberals ever researched was which tv channel rachel maddow was playing.
You should know better than that. They’re human tape recorders.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 19th, 2013
5:00 pm
So conversely, if I pick out three out of five proponents of man-made global warming, and they’re funded by governments who are advocating more regulations which will give them more control over people, I can dismiss them as easily as you do and be just as correct, right, Cheesy?
No because if they are proponents of they would be correct.
Being right matters.
JDW
February 19th, 2013
5:04 pm
@md…”Wants vs needs…..wants vs needs.”
Not really…it is more like quality vs cheap…there is a place in the middle of budget disfunction and ranking 49 in every measure except obesity and bank failures.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
5:07 pm
“Dow and S&P close at fresh five-year highs. Dow adds 54 points. Nasdaq and S&P climb 0.7%.
Ever since the Repugs let every one know they were in charge and that suckestration was going to happen, the Dow has sky rocketed. Wall Street is happy to see the adults running things again.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 19th, 2013
5:07 pm
Sorry, Cheesy, but you dismissed them because of their involvement with the Cato Institute and their involvement ONLY.
Just because YOU happen to believe they are right doesn’t make it so.
In fact, it makes it all the more likely they are not right.
md
February 19th, 2013
5:10 pm
“ranking 49 in every measure except obesity and bank failures.”
Can you provide those links please……thanks.
JDW
February 19th, 2013
5:10 pm
“Georgia is one of the biggest taker states.”
Actually these Rubes we have elected can’t even do that right…GA gets $1.09 for every dollar paid. AL gets $1.96, LA 2.73, SC 2.13…maybe we need to get them to train our guys.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 19th, 2013
5:10 pm
Ever since the Repugs let every one know they were in charge and that suckestration was going to happen, the Dow has sky rocketed.
LOL
JDW
February 19th, 2013
5:12 pm
@MD…”Can you provide those links please……thanks.”
Go have a look…pick anything you want
http://www.statemaster.com/index.php
getalife
February 19th, 2013
5:30 pm
con don’t believe in facts unless those facts are in line with their failed ideology.
The market is high because of easing and ignoring bad news.
The easing will not stop until unemployment goes way down.
The gop are focused on cuts that loses 750,000 jobs so easing will never go away.
The gop should look at the costs of easing and the economy is now blamed on the gop.
Thulsa Doom
February 19th, 2013
5:31 pm
md,
Count me as one of those folks who would love to have bike paths throughout metro Atlanta. I would have actually used the paths and even gone to and from work with them and I would have been willing to pay a little more in taxes to have them. But again. Needs vs wants. But it can be done. As I understand it Peachtree city has a whole network of golf cart paths for people to drive around the city in golf carts- less cars and smog in the air and I’m cool with not having to breathe exhaust. So if a small city like Ptree city can do it at reasonable cost then it can be done. Its just that its a want by a small minority of people like me and JDW.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 19th, 2013
5:33 pm
“The market is high because of easing and ignoring bad news.”
No, the market is high due to the same reason it always rises.
Companies continue to show profits.
Doesn’t matter whether they show profits due to increases in growth or income, or simply due to cutting costs; as long as they show profits, the market will grow.
It has almost nothing to do with the health of the economy, and hasn’t for decades.
getalife
February 19th, 2013
5:36 pm
Finally, Thulsa Doom made a credible argument.
Congrats, I thought this day would never come.
Actually wanting government to do something for the people is not conservative.
It is liberal.
getalife
February 19th, 2013
5:37 pm
Wrong as usual Tiber.
I can count on you for that fact.
You can stop pretending to be better than others because you are worse.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
5:40 pm
obozo has been easing for four years, only after the GOP said enough on the spending did the stock market rise.
Deal with it.
getalife
February 19th, 2013
5:40 pm
Your 401k’s will drop if the sequester is reality but easing will make it bounce back.
getalife
February 19th, 2013
5:41 pm
Nice spin Aesop.
Politico
February 19th, 2013
5:45 pm
http://www.google.com/finance?q=INDEXDJX:.DJI
Market has been going up since the 1st qtr of 09.
getalife
February 19th, 2013
5:47 pm
The sc will approve more corruption with unlimited private donor bribes.
The cons on the sc do love them some corruption.
I guess you cons do too.
Just unbelievable.
md
February 19th, 2013
5:49 pm
Don’t get me wrong, bike paths would be great to have all over the country……but it’s not cost effective compared to other needed spending.
That seems to be the overall debate……..how much do we want and how much are we willing to pay….
And the operative word should be “we”, but lately the operative word is “they”, as in we want them to pay for it.
These States that are in trouble bought a few too many wants and now are having trouble affording the needs.
It is a human condition……
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
5:50 pm
p-lo – How could it not go up from the bottom that obozo brought about? We’re talking about the record high the Repugs have given us. Go back to sleep.
md
February 19th, 2013
5:50 pm
“Market has been going up since the 1st qtr of 09.”
Yep, companies have a way of getting healthier when they cut 20 million expenses from their books…..
Politico
February 19th, 2013
5:51 pm
Aesop
You were wrong. Deal with it
Politico
February 19th, 2013
5:53 pm
“Yep, companies have a way of getting healthier when they cut 20 million expenses from their books…..”
Wasn’t the issue. Aesop falsely stated that the market started going up when Repubs said enough. He was wrong. It has been going up before they took back the House and of course for numerous reasons continues to go up.
Dusty
February 19th, 2013
5:55 pm
Josef Josef wherefore art thou? I just camest in my humble abode..
I just wanted to ask you about a book that ruffled me up a bit. It was Dear Ellen Bee….A Civil; war scrapbook of two union spies…..so the fron cover read. Written by Mary E. Lyons & Muriel M. Branch. I saw the title at a book sale and thought I might check it out even though it is called a scholastic printing. Chilluns!!
Have you read it? I thought about your book and thought this one might be interesting. It was but not in the way I thought it might be.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 19th, 2013
5:56 pm
The market has NOTHING to do with what one party or another does unless it affects their bottom line.
Nothing.
getalife
February 19th, 2013
5:56 pm
“bottom that obozo brought about? ”
Lie.
Politico
February 19th, 2013
5:57 pm
Tiberius
You might want to address that with Aesop. He seems to think it does.
getalife
February 19th, 2013
5:58 pm
You keep missing him Dusty.
Jay is switching to a new format so you might ask him over at Jay’s.
Dusty
February 19th, 2013
6:05 pm
getalife,
I don’t post at Bookman’s, new format or not. Sorry. Thanks for helping. .
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 19th, 2013
6:09 pm
Of course bike paths cost money, and in a balanced budget state like GA it hasn’t been a priority. Evidently it might have been better if it wasn’t a priority out there.
Yes, better to make sure the businesses have lotso tax breaks. That’s much more important than a n improvement in our lives by bike paths.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
6:10 pm
When obozo won the dummycrat party nomination in 2008, the very next day the markets collapsed. Not a week later or a month earlier, the very next day. Krazed socialists in power has a way of making capitalists flee. Pumping Wall Street full of obozobucks brought them back, marginally. Only when Republicans finally cornered obozo on the suckestration, forcing cuts in spending, did the market hit the high that it’s on today.
Deal with it.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
6:12 pm
The American people are begging the Republicans, pleading with them to stop the obozo agenda. No one heard any of this during his campaign, it was just lie after lie after lie. Now that they know what he has on his mind for real, they want no part of it.
We are happy to help.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
6:12 pm
I tell the people asking for my help to just be calm, socialists always over reach.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 19th, 2013
6:18 pm
Aesop, SOME American people are begging the Republicans to stop the Obama agenda.
You do not speak for “The American People”.
Bruno
February 19th, 2013
6:19 pm
He’s referring chiefly to land-use policies in states like California and Florida, where the bubble was far worse. The decline in prices in less-regulated states like Georgia was less severe on the whole (though there are always, of course, exceptions) and began in earnest after the financial crisis, whereas the decline in the more-regulated states began before the crisis. According to his theory, the decline in the more-regulated states drove the crisis, which eventually spread to places like Georgia.
Kyle–Again, I’ll have to learn more about Mr. O’Toole’s theory, but on the surface, it doesn’t make sense. Restricting land use should theoretically raise values, as it has in my home area in South Jersey. Atlantic County has had a building moratorium in place for nearly 30 years, with predictable effects on the housing prices.
Even if FL and CA were impacted by restricted land use, I still see no mechanism by which this should impact other states. With more information, his theory might make more sense.
If you ask me, the prime factor in the housing market meltdown was greed, both on the banking AND consumer sides of the equation.
Politico
February 19th, 2013
6:22 pm
http://www.google.com/finance?q=INDEXDJX:.DJI
Aesop
Market started going down in 07, but keep flailing with your nonsense.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 19th, 2013
6:25 pm
“That’s much more important than a n improvement in our lives by bike paths”
Please cite any governing document stating where the role of government is to improve our lives, Finn.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
6:25 pm
I’m not going to squabble with you tonight tibs. Do I look like amvet to you? Calm down.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
6:27 pm
p-lo – You just gave me a chart that shows exactly what I said.
Thanks.
Politico
February 19th, 2013
6:34 pm
Aesop
Market was going down starting in 07, but you can believe as you wish. It bottomed out 1st qtr 09 and has been increasing since that time.
If you want to believe it is because of the Republicans or whatever, that is your choice. If it makes you feel better about yourself regardless of the facts babble on.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
6:37 pm
The shooting of Miss Pendleton commanded the attention of the White House and, naturally, that of President Obama’s former chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, now mayor of Chicago and fecklessly reshuffling the organization chart of the police department. The usual noises were made about gun control, and especially the flow of guns from nearby Indiana into Chicago, though nobody bothered to ask why Chicago is a war zone and Muncie isn’t. But the mayor’s latest promises did not impress 17-year-old Jordyn Willis, who organized a march in Miss Pendleton’s memory. “He can’t control his city,” Miss Willis told the Chicago Tribune.
Some people can see right through the liberals and this is the only hope of our country.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
6:38 pm
Look at your own chart p-lo, a mere correction in 2007 is nothing compared to the cliff drop off at the end of 2008. Are you some kind of habitual liar?
md
February 19th, 2013
6:42 pm
“Yes, better to make sure the businesses have lotso tax breaks.”
And I have no problem with tax breaks for businesses considering WE are businesses….in case you missed it, we own them, manage them, work for them and buy their goods……..
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
6:47 pm
You just have to take their ability to lie away from them -
Date Open
1/31/2008 12438
6/1/2008 11346
8/30/2008 11713
9/30/2008 11140
12/31/2008 8666
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
6:49 pm
Here’s a good example of a whopper from the habitual liars -
Chuck Todd: It’s “Mythology” That the Media Has Bias
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
6:59 pm
It seems that the temporary program created by Obamacare to provide coverage to people with pre-existing conditions until the new system takes effect next year has run out of money even though it attracted far fewer people than it was expected to. The Associated Press described the matter in terms we’ll be getting used to as Obamacare unfolds:
Enrollment around the country has been lower than expected, partly because some people could not afford the premiums. But individual cases have turned out to be costlier than originally projected.
Now just imagine how much fun this whole monstrosity will be.
Lynnie Gal
February 19th, 2013
7:22 pm
Ah, Agenda 21–a conspiracy theory for the tin foil hat crowd. Paul Broun’s gang members are very concerned. Gotta go–black helicopter is hovering around my house. Oh, it’s just a hawk trying to get to the bird feeder. Never mind.
indigo
February 19th, 2013
7:44 pm
Aesop
Republican innuendos, distortions and half-truths are flowing from you tonight like sh*t through a goose.
Jack ®
February 19th, 2013
7:50 pm
Slice it anyway you want to, the housing industry collapse came about due to banks being required to loan money to those who never intended to repay their debts.
ODD OWL
February 19th, 2013
7:50 pm
The Republican modus operandi is always diametrically opposite of what they opine about… Randal O’toole listed the real reasons why the housing bubble bursted, then he deny that they’re the real reasons… O’toole claims are untenable…
Hillbilly D
February 19th, 2013
8:00 pm
There’s one point about the housing bubble that nobody mentions. Can’t speak for other areas but in my area, at the time, you could buy a house cheaper than you could rent one. So, if somebody would loan you the money, you’d have been a fool to rent when you could pay less and eventually (hopefully) own it yourself. The problem up here was that nobody was building entry level housing. No money in that, they went with building McMansions. If there had been a supply of entry level houses, it might have made a difference. Although, at least in my area, most of the foreclosures were on mid-to-high level houses, that folks were trying keep up with the Joneses by buying.
md
February 19th, 2013
8:15 pm
HD, builders weren’t building the entry level homes because banks were telling folks they qualified for more even though most folks knew they didn’t have it but bought the bigger home anyway…….
A bit like a car dealer putting folks in the high end ride when the folks know they should be in the yugo…
Rafe Hollister
February 19th, 2013
8:23 pm
It wasn’t greed that caused the housing collapse, it was economic ignorance by people who had no business buying a house. I had many people explain to me how wonderful an interest only mortgage was. They planned on their home increasing in value and after a few years of living large, they planned to refinance and finally get serious about paying down the mortgage. Didn’t work out so well. PT Barnum was correct, a sucker is born everyday and the scamsters count on peoples love of getting something for nothing.
Rafe Hollister
February 19th, 2013
8:30 pm
Yes, md you are correct, and the climate established by Fannie and Freddie fostered the banks to create interest only loans and go crazy with the adjustable loans, which allowed people to qualify for mortgages they could previously only dream of qualifying for.
Hillbilly D
February 19th, 2013
8:40 pm
md
Everybody was in on the gravy train, together, in my area. I saw a lot of what we’ve always referred to here as “going bankrupt with a pocket full”. A lot of the builders took it in the pants but the bankers still have the big cars and the big houses, even though the banks folded up or were taken over by the FDIC.
The folks who were riding the gravy train I don’t have any sympathy for. It’s the folks that lost jobs, etc, in the fallout, that I sympathize with. They got a royal screwing for something they had nothing to do with.
And by the way, I spent years working in car dealerships, so folks think they know what goes on there but they don’t. In many cases, it’s worse than they ever imagine.
Hillbilly D
February 19th, 2013
8:43 pm
On no down payment/ARM loans, of course they’re like a nuclear hand grenade, you can’t get far enough away from them, but they’ve been around a while. I worked with a guy who got a no down payment loan, about 1990.
md
February 19th, 2013
9:16 pm
Yep, ignorance also played a big role. Interest only loans are a great product if used correctly, but folks need to understand the risk prior to……many didn’t.
I find it interesting that many don’t want to recognize that every commodity has risk, and that includes homes, but too many again only saw the upside.
A house is no different than any other in regards to being subject to market forces, prices going up for many years was the exception not the rule.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
9:24 pm
“We could attract greater federal scrutiny and displeasure of our neighbors,” if marijuana flows across state lines, he said.
The barn door is already open. Make legal in all 50 states. This is the one and only thing I even come close to agree with the liberals on.
Don’t bogart that joint, my friend.
md
February 19th, 2013
9:42 pm
Legalizing mj would be a nightmare for businesses, especially those that have to drug test. Not too sure an accurate testing system could be implemented. Anybody?
Hillbilly D
February 19th, 2013
10:04 pm
md
The places where I’ve worked that they did drug testing, it was basically a joke. The tests were “random”. They’d come in 2-3 times a year and pick out a few people to test. Two things would usually happen, people that everybody knew were users (and not just weed) wouldn’t get picked, if management like them. On the flip side, if there was somebody they wanted to get rid of and did really have a valid reason, they’d test them every time, just hoping they did test positive.
And think of the liability if somebody had an accident, etc. That’s already a bad thing for businesses now and it would only complicate matters, I think.
Mine isn’t the popular view but I don’t think it’d do society any good to legalize it.
Hillbilly D
February 19th, 2013
10:06 pm
That should say “didn’t really have a valid reason”
md
February 19th, 2013
10:11 pm
HD, the last place I worked that had drug testing was on the small side, so on testing days everybody’s name went into the hat in the middle of the room and the “winners” got to wiz in the cup….I don’t think there were too many users in a our group.
Now alcohol was a whole different story.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
10:18 pm
Now alcohol was a whole different story.
And this is what I don’t understand. How alcohol can be legal but weed isn’t. What, pray tell, is the difference?
td
February 19th, 2013
10:20 pm
Aesop’s Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 19th, 2013
10:18 pm
Now alcohol was a whole different story.
And this is what I don’t understand. How alcohol can be legal but weed isn’t. What, pray tell, is the difference?
Farmers vs established long time big business.
Hillbilly D
February 19th, 2013
10:23 pm
md
The place I was talking about was roughly 100 people.
I think that’s the only place I’ve worked that did random testing. Most other places was just a pre-employment screening and testing for “cause” or after a workplace accident. I did see a guy tested 30 something times before he finally got caught. There was always a running bet as to whether he was on drugs or just crazy and I’m not sure if it was ever determined for sure, that he wasn’t both.
bluecoat
February 19th, 2013
11:11 pm
Where is Chip Rogers when you cons. need him?
bluecoat
February 19th, 2013
11:20 pm
Weed does not need to be made legal.Enough people killed/hurt with drunk drivers as is.Unless I was planning to grow/sell I would never agree with the libs.
getalife
February 20th, 2013
12:09 am
They grow good weed these days.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 20th, 2013
6:57 am
Maybe if the libs smoked a joint, they would get all paranoid and stop spending all of our children’s money.
Jefferson
February 20th, 2013
7:24 am
the folks that support the self titled “party of stupid” would be the folks of stupid. Throwing stink balls in the fan just to smell stink, why is your half baked point?
Normal Free...Pro Human Rights Thug...And liking it!
February 20th, 2013
7:39 am
And here I am, thinking that Agenda 21 was a ploy to ban Black jack…
md
February 20th, 2013
8:49 am
“And this is what I don’t understand. How alcohol can be legal but weed isn’t. What, pray tell, is the difference?”
One is legal and one is not? Sorry, couldn’t resist.
For starters, go back up the page and answer my question on testing. Alcohol leaves the system fairly quick while mj does not. How do you test your airline pilots, bus drivers, etc that may be using? Sorry, but I don’t want some super mellow individual trying to get me out of the sky in one piece. Cheech and Chong can drive their van but don’t let them work for Greyhound.
On a separate note (and disclaimer as I “experimented” with the best of them), there is one very big question folks should be asking themselves. Since all drugs are basically reality changing substances, what is wrong with one’s reality if they feel the need to escape from it?
Some of the happiest people on the planet are children……and they aren’t altering their realities….think about that.
Aquagirl
February 20th, 2013
8:59 am
How do you test your airline pilots, bus drivers, etc that may be using?
The Cheetos test: place an open bag in front of them for five minutes.
Okay, seriously, that is a legitimate complaint. They’re trying to develop a test that will tell how long ago somebody smoked. It doesn’t give a blood level like alcohol but we could set a standard time limit for various situations.
Frankly I’d rather have a pilot who smoked his last doobie 18 hours ago than a hungover pilot who grabbed five hour’s sleep after a binge.
http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/180490/states-developing-a-marijuana-breathalyzer-for-stoned-driving/
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 20th, 2013
9:23 am
md – I’m talking more of the law enforcement issue then anything, it makes no sense that people can get raging drunk but they can’t mellow out without taking the risk of getting a criminal record and facing hefty fines. As far as your question, it’s the same as drinking and driving, if you are an airline pilot you have a certain number of days to decrease the level of THC in your system, it comes with the responsibilities of your job. If you gonna fly da plane, don’t light up the mary jane.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 20th, 2013
9:33 am
The head of US tyre manufacturer Titan International told the French government Wednesday that his firm will not take over a loss-making Goodyear factory because the unions there are “crazy” and its employees “only work three hours a day”.
“How stupid do you think we are?” Titan Chief Executive Maurice Taylor asked French Minister for Industrial Renewal Arnaud Montebourg in a letter published by French business daily Les Echos [in French and English].
“I have visited that factory a couple of times. The French workforce gets paid high wages but only works for three hours.
A Titan commercial shows its CEO Maurice Taylor expressing his opinion of the French.
“They get one hour for breaks and lunch, they talk for three and they work for three. I told this to the French union workers to their faces. They told me that’s the French way!”
Well, now we know that Goodyear would never take over the American federation of government employees. Or the US teacher’s unions. “How stupid do you think your kids are?”
md
February 20th, 2013
9:52 am
Yep, and the Greeks are once again marching in the streets demanding their gov’t spend what it does not have and can not get considering no one will loan them any money………
Ignorance taken to a whole new level…….
http://news.yahoo.com/greece-hit-general-strike-against-austerity-105250631–finance.html
md
February 20th, 2013
9:56 am
As for legalizing, I could live with it either way, but I think we need to quit filling our jails with users. That makes no sense from an economic standpoint……people that use and abuse will suffer the consequences and don’t need to be getting 3 squares on our dime.
But, I also don’t want to see them standing in an assistance line with their hand out because they can’t hold a job while continuing the choice of using/abusing……….
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
February 20th, 2013
10:38 am
Legalize or not, the one thing that needs to be resolved is leveling out the penalties. In one state you can go to jail for possessing an ounce and if you cross the state line and get caught, it is a ten dollar fine. I don’t think it is much different from alcohol, don’t use anymore myself, so I don’t care other than hate to see kids ruin their lives over a toke or two. They get caught in a place with severe penalties and they have ruined their life much worse than a DUI, which is a much more severe crime.
As has been pointed out many times before, our justice system often is an injustice system.
Dusty
February 20th, 2013
10:43 am
So the blog IS working . I couldn’t get anything going after 6:30 last night. So I read a book by Maeve somebody. Waste of time. Anybody read a good book recently?
So who’s ahead today? Mr. O’Toole or Mr. O’Fool? Now reading here about drug use Seems we have some experts on the subject. Just another escape from reality I suppose. Yawn..
No artificial Flavors
February 20th, 2013
10:52 am
I wonder what the effect was on Houston Tx where there are no zoning laws?
I’m all for looser zoning in counties with the caveat that citizens quit bitching about having to pay higher taxes and utilities to cover the debt service for running infrastructure miles and miles outside of cities creating exurban sprawl that no one wants to pay for.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 20th, 2013
11:06 am
Anybody read a good book recently?
I haven’t read it yet but Ann Coulter’s book “Mugged” looks pretty promising. It details all of the lies told by liberals about the civil rights movement. I’ll bet very few people know that the 1957 civil rights bill was brought by Eisenhower, a Republican, and had the enforcement procedures gutted out of it by Lyndon Johnson.
democrats are truly pitiful.
MarkV
February 20th, 2013
11:12 am
Dusty @10:43 am
Escape from reality? Dusty, don’t you know one should not throw stones in a glass house? Our recent discussion reminded me so much of words from a play you know, I am sure, so well.
Reading some of your posts made me ask: Is Dusty, perhaps, French?
“The French never care what they do, actually, as long as they pronounce it properly.”
Which could be paraphrased as a question: Does Dusty not care what she has written as long as it sounds well?
Dusty: “You don’t spend money when you don’t have any. If you are in debt, you don’t have any money to spend. “
Which, again, immediately evokes another line (without the gender implication): “Why is logic never even tried?”
A. “If you are in debt, you don’t have any money to spend.”
B. Fact: The US has had a national debt for most of her history.
C. Fact: The US government has been spending money for all of the country’s history.
Since B and C are documented facts, A must be false; logic has not been tried.
(And if one wants to carry this further, one can look at Tiberius’ babbling about “difference with your personal vs. government borrowing” and be reminded of still another line:
“Why don’t they straighten up the mess that’s inside?”)
One thing you can find solace in is the fact that you are not alone is saying things that sound well even though they are nonsense. How often one could read someone on this blog pontificating: “You cannot borrow and spend yourself out of debt.”
The answer to which must be, naturally: Yes, you can.
splavistic
February 20th, 2013
11:13 am
You just have to look at Arizona to see what a sorry republican governor can do to a state’s real estate value. horrible.
TBone
February 20th, 2013
11:13 am
Having worked in a resource extracting industry (forestry) for a number of years, the persistent attempts to develop more and more land use restrictive policies has been going on for a long time. Look at the Endangered Species Act, Wetlands and other policy that is sold for the greater good but severely limits what a land owner can do on their own land. Public lands are all but locked up and now they are coming for private lands.
splavistic
February 20th, 2013
11:13 am
Oh, yeah, don’t blame the Suburban Planners. All they’re responsible for is throw-away architecture and never-ending sprawl. Yum. Great job, guys. Really.
TBone
February 20th, 2013
11:43 am
Who are these suburban planners, who funds them and where do they come from?
Doug B
February 21st, 2013
2:13 pm
Many people go to the urban core. So planners have to figure out where they can all go so we don’t have complete chaos. Ergo, the planners are to blame for the high prices, not the many people who are all trying to buy the same land. Ridiculous.
bu2
February 25th, 2013
12:48 am
Its an interesting theory. Non-zoned Houston didn’t have much of a bubble at all. And compared to the rest of Texas which didn’t have much of a bubble either, Atlanta’s zoning laws are draconian. Unincorporated Dekalb County has something like 40 zoning categories. Atlanta is similar. And any changes have to go through neighborhood groups. Maybe its easier in the suburbs, but in-town is very difficult.
Now I don’t buy that it really caused the crash. It was pretty obvious to me in early 2008 that Atlanta was over-building and was due for a crash. But some heavily zoned areas did crash the worst.