Debate about gay members unlikely to end well for Scouts

The groups pushing this issue are not one whit concerned about the children. They care only about their continuing efforts to pervert the culture and deconstruct the institutions that once made and kept America strong: marriage, family, and now a major boy’s organization that has long fostered traditional American values.

Let us hope the Boy Scouts will stand up to the selfish efforts of a sick minority.

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If the homosexual lobby wants to change the Boy Scouts from what they are into whatever it is they prefer, why don’t they do THAT?

Oh, right, it’s easier to just harrass the Boy Scouts.

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Cons can’t stomach the fact that the country they’ve known and loved is no longer in existence. Sorry folks, but you’re on the wrong side of history.

There are gay people in the world. There have been gay people since humans climbed down from the trees and formed civilizations. They occupy every career and level of society. Get over it.

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I agree, Kyle (I know I know – how often does that happen – -). the organization will anger many adults no matter what decision they make. I’m a country boy so my childhood was 4H, not Scouts, but my own kid spent a half dozen years in Scouts and I did several adult roles during that time. My guess is that few Scouts worry much about whether the kid next to them is gay nor, which no one is discussing, whether the kid next to a Girl Scout is lesbian. Adults are the problem – on any side of the issue.

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Couple of points that are missing here:

(1) Supreme Court in 2000 ruled that a private organization, specifically Bioy Scouts, could express its “freedom of association” and exclude/include any person that it decides.
(2) The Boy Scout oath: “On my honor I will do my best; To do my duty to God and my country…”

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(2) The Boy Scout oath: “On my honor I will do my best; To do my duty to God and my country…”

It doesn’t specify which God.

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Kyle, after reading Aesop and Lil Barry’s hateful bile every day, how can you not question your views on issues like this. If I ever agree with one of those two guys, I would seriously have to check my conscience and rethink my stance.

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To Finn McCool (The System isn’t Broken; It’s Fixed)
February 11th, 2013
8:30 am
Get along… YES. agree with everything NO.

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Oh, and by the way, what rwcole said. If those two represent the ‘Christian’ view of things, then Christianity is in dire straits…

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“(2) The Boy Scout oath: “On my honor I will do my best; To do my duty to God and my country…”

It doesn’t specify which God.”

Gotta love that lib spin. From the BSA founder Baden-Powell himself:

“We aim for the practice of Christianity in their everyday life and dealings, and not merely the profession of theology on Sundays”

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Jerry and Fins: Good posts!

The trifecta above (Aesop, LBB, and Milton) are up early this morning. Has the thought ever entered your minds (now that is something novel) that their God is loving and different from your God/beliefs? Didn’t Jesus tell us not to judge? That God is the judge?

As long as the troop members are treated with respect who cares? Or does the molestation of kids by “straights” not register with you?

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“Straights” don’t molest children of their own gender. By definition, that’s a homosexuals act.

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“The trifecta above (Aesop, LBB, and Milton) are up early this morning. Has the thought ever entered your minds (now that is something novel) that….”

Then turns around and asks about judging others??? Classic!

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LBB: Oh Really! I believe it is an act of dominance, similar to the tone of your posts!

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““On my honor I will do my best; To do my duty to God and my country…”

Which is to be loving and accepting of everyone.”

Would love to see Pea accept the following to his “church”:

Mass-Murderer was has just escaped from jail.
A person who has threatened harm to him and his family.
An unrepentful adulterer who keeps hitting on his wife.
etc.
etc.

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Either way, I wouldn’t stay with a troop that asked a kid to leave because he displayed homosexual tendencies. What about the mentally retarded kids who want to participate. We throw them out cause they are different?

I would think most kids between 11 and 16 are only beginning to get an inkling of what they prefer but whatever that may be it takes a back seat to fishing, hiking, camping, etc.

Should behavior becomes inappropriate you deal with it as adults dealing with kids. “This is not appropriate, you shouldn’t do this, or you shouldn’t do that, etc.” And also you ensure you have leaders in the troop who are good at dealing with such situations.

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Classy move there Aesop, shrieking “CHILD MOLESTER” at another poster, barely two minutes after someone noted you typify one of the reasons why people run from conservative views.

Thanks for your concern, aq, but I tend to disagree with the views of the northeastern big government flip flopping aisle reachers in the Republican party. Me, myself, I’d rather not belong to a political party that allowed the likes of you to be in it.

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The issue of gay leaders has been dealt with pretty well over the last 20 years with the introduction of 2-deep leadership. There must be 2 adults in the presence of the boys at all times. A troop outing can not occur unless there is a specific adult/child ratio, etc.

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I might be moving soon. Seems there is a job opening in the Vatican City….

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My wife and I were both wondering this morning if something huge was about to break in the catholic church which might have led to his resignation.

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“It still exists. The takers are currently feeding on it and will likely devour it in the not too distant future.”

Yes, please continue to spout this opinion. You know, since it worked so well for Romney last November.

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“…and libs can’t stomach Supreme Court decisions that they do not like.”

Yeah, the Con reaction to the June SC announcement about ACA was splendid.

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but I tend to disagree with the views of the northeastern big government flip flopping aisle reachers in the Republican party.

You have confused common decency and sanity with a political stance. Wow, those darned NE flip-floppers are so reluctant to howl “CHILD MOLESTER” at the drop of a hat. I can see why they irritate you. Not nearly enough screaming and nastiness for your tastes.

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Aesop is brilliant. You know, because homosexual is synonymous with child predator.

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Kyle concerning your comment on the United Methodist churches – as you know the church is SPLIT over its decisions about “gays” (whether to ordain them or not, etc); and have NOT reached a conclusion on the subject.

Some parishes are for the rights of gays and some aren’t. Some want the church to move on from this conflict and some want allowing the denomination to separate as it did over slavery in the 1840s.

So in essence, what i’m saying your opening statement — why not saying specifically that UMC would be adverse to having gay men over boy scouts troops, it did infer that they did.

You, in essence, wrote a misleading intro into your commentary; and it stands to reason that if you’ve deliberately misled about the UMC then you’ve probably deliberately misled with your whole commentary.

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“From the BSA founder Baden-Powell himself: “We aim for the practice of Christianity in their everyday life and dealings, and not merely the profession of theology on Sundays”

And I say again – if the BSA wants to be a solely Christian Organization – they should market themselves as such. No Jews allowed. No Muslims allowed. No agnostics or atheists allowed.

Just don’t pretend that you are just a camping and service organization if your true motives are to introduce religion. Where are the Bilble reading badges?

The way it will splinter the BSA is if it becomes just a Christian organization that doesn’t want inclusiveness, then perhaps a second organization devoted to the “other” side of BSA – the camping, the socialization, the service would come along and take the donors money from the BSA. And the churches could support the “old-time” BSA.

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Aesop is brilliant. You know, because homosexual is synonymous with child predator.

Oh, I see, now there is a distinction between deviants, some deviants are better than other deviants, yeah, I’m so sure.

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“Interesting group…seems to me that the Catholics and Mormons should keep their eyes on the rampant sex scandals that are internal to their organizations.”

You could let each BSA troop to determine its own theology. Mormon troops could teach polygamy and taking multiple child brides. Catholic troops could teach about the proper way to be an altar boy. At least they wouldn’t be GAY!

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Of course, the left doesn’t care about the future of the Boy Scouts because it is a male organization that helps males, including large number of white males from middle and upper class backgrounds. The left figures that we’d be better off without such an organization than with it. Do you honestly think that Barack Obama’s vision for America includes an organization that teaches young males – white males in particular – self reliance? Beta male liberals like Obama hate alpha males because alpha males remind them of their own weakness. They’ll be glad when the Boy Scouts are gone and the country will be that much safer for beta males like them who like to cry and eat chocolate ice cream while watching Oprah and Tyler Perry movies.

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Kyle lets people like Aesop and Lil Barry post their vile screed here because Kyle actually agrees with it. Kyle couldn’t get away with posting it himself, I doubt even his protectors at the AJC would stomach that, but Kyle’s alter-egos can post their disgusting spew with impunity. You are known by those you associate with, Kyle.

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@Edward:

Kyle also lets liberals post their equally vile stuff. So how come vile conservatism is bad but vile liberalism isn’t? Liberals say the most evil, hateful stuff about conservatives all the time and don’t even know that it is hateful. That is the amazing part.

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Hopefully, the BSA will stand up to outside pressure

Let’s see if the shrieking GAYZ R PERVS crowd will pick up the financial slack. If they open their checkbooks as much as their mouths, this will be a non-issue.

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Which runs counter to a core conviction for many of the BSA’s largest religious sponsors that homosexuality is a sin.

Maybe some of these “religious sponsors” will grow up and begin to practice what they’re preaching one of these days. But, based on the ignorant responses of people like Aesop and Lil Barry this AM, I’m not going to hold my breath waiting.

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On this issue the Boy Scouts have turned out to be UNPREPARED.

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Attention Libs–As painful as it is for me to acknowledge, there is a segment of us Cons that does fit your stereotype of the angry, non-thinking Neanderthal type of person. Please don’t hold that against the rest of us.

The bottom line is that there are laws already in place which prohibit immoral contact with children. And with sensible guidelines in place, such as two-man leadership teams, I would guess that the risk to anyone would be close to zero. My feeling is that if someone is crazy enough to try to become a scout leader to molest kids, they likely would have gotten in trouble already.

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Aesop – 7:55

You’ll probably be surprised to know I totally agree with you on this.

Any Boy Scout group foolish enough to admit gay Scoutmasters will have the pedifiles running to it like starving Hyenas chasing a meat wagon.

I can only hope parents will have sense enough to keep their children OUT of such groups.

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“But it wouldn’t comfort those who demand a complete change, those who know national treasures make good trophies, and those who would prefer the BSA serve no one if it won’t include them.”

Uppity gay folks! What is this, if we can’t have something neither can you garbage! First thing you know we’re going to have a gay civil rights act, like that Johnson guy did for the black folks fifty years ago come next year.

Separate but equal I say! States Rights! Oops: “A house divided against itself will not stand.”

Doggone it, which is it?

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DADT overall worked well in the military until it was repealed because of political motivation. I wonder why DADT shouldn’t apply in scouting. Why should sexual orientation be a subject of discussion in an organization for and about young people growing into their adulthood. It sounds more like a special interest social agenda motive than a true desire to participate in adult leadership within the BSA.

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This is a cultural issue, not a moral one. Americans aren’t ready for openly gay anything, except drag queen burlesques, which are terrific. Would anyone let Ru Paul be a scout leader? What about Barney Frank? What about Ellen and the girl scouts? Elton John and the brownies? No, no, no, and NO!

We need another couple of generations before we elect a gay president. We’ll probably elect a woman before that happens. We won’t fulfill the founding father’s vision until we elect a black lesbian communist jihadist as our president. Aw, the conservative family values people would only gerrymander their way out of that ever happening. I guess we’ll always be a talent-contested, halftime-show-wardrobe-malfunction based oligarchy with too much makeup. Eh, It’s not so bad. At least we have an Amazon as first lady.

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DADT overall worked well in the military until it was repealed because of political motivation. I wonder why DADT shouldn’t apply in scouting. Why should sexual orientation be a subject of discussion in an organization for and about young people growing into their adulthood.

Del–I would be comfortable with a policy like that. I can’t speak for any homosexuals who desire to be Scout leaders, but I don’t think they’re volunteering in order to line up new recruits any more so than gay folks would want to become teachers in order to advance any type of agenda.

I’m sure if josef were here he could express it more eloquently, but the bottom line is that homosexuals are people, pretty much like the rest of us. Their motivations for getting involved with youth groups is likely the same as for their heterosexual counterparts. I don’t think we need to fear the bogeyman here.

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“The question of integrating individual troops was a thorny one, and it was not solved overnight. But it was not the same question as the one posed today about gay members and leaders.”

I’m having trouble seeing your logic.

BSA and black people: No black people. Segregated black people. Integration of black and white people.

BSA and gay people: No gay people (at least none that admit that they are gay). Do gay people have to go through the segregation step before integration?

To my mind the question posed is exactly the same. Should BSA discriminate against gay people? I don’t care if the reason for discrimination is based in religion. Invoking the name of God to excuse bigotry is not a good thing.

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Aesop–The Bible contains a long, long laundry list of “sins” that we laugh at today, such as the prohibition against tattoos.

Read the New Testament and get back with me, Bruno.

Don’t just thumb through it either.

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“I don’t hold anything against you personally but when Kyle lets his regulars spew like a teenager who tried his first beer keg stand, it’s a problem. There’s been all sorts of wink-wink-nod-nod from conservatives on too many issues.”

WaterGirl – high maintenance that one. She has a problem with Kyle & “his regulars” but has absolutley no problem with Jay & “his regulars”???

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Ruh, roh.

To those that were tracking thread counts: 156 – 89.

Better get busy over here.

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The censorship whining of aq serves a purpose, all liberal courses of action start out small and gain momentum until they reach their full filthy blossom. Like striking down laws against deviant behavior that were never enforced anyway, then you move on to DADT, and then the Boy Scouts and pretty soon you require homosexuality to be taught to kindergarteners. I know how this works, I’ve seen it before.

Back to the censorship, remember obozo setting up a tweet page so you could report opposing political comments? Notice how bookman resides in an ever shrinking bubble? Ever wonder how what used to be good and decent is now radical and extreme?

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For Aesop, maybe we should start with Matthew 5:18– “I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.”

Looks like your “New Testament only” theology is contradicted within the New Testament itself.

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Notice how bookman resides in an ever shrinking bubble?

Dittoheads say, “What?”

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For Aesop, maybe we should start with Matthew 5:18– “I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.”

He said that while he was alive, Bruno, come on man.

What do you think “accomplished” means?

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Ooops while He was alive

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I thought you didn’t read my comments, kamwhack, I mean chak. Or was that another of you libs?

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Let’s expand a little, and go with Matthew 5:17-20–”17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”

Looks like a pretty high bar to me, Aesop. So, unless you claim to adhere to every Law, every commandment, you might want to start stocking up on sunscreen.

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Here’s a thought; why not create another organization for the GLBT bunch. Call ‘em the Gay Scouts of America or something. Kinda like the Congressional Black Caucus or Miss Black America, you know some type of unifying identity. Leave the traditional institutions that have made this country alone and search for your own identity.

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Wow. A lot of hysteria from the left. News flash – there are gay Boy Scouts. Always have been, always will be. They keep it to themselves, however, because ANY discussions of sexuality have no place in Scouting. Period. There is no room for your political agenda, people. Leave your personal activism at home and let the Scouts do what they do best, which is to teach children and young adults skills to become upstanding adults with survival skills. Yes, the Scouts will take a hit from corporations who will be strong-armed by gay activists to withhold sponsorship. Believe me, others will step in and support the Scouts even more because of this, just as with what happened to Chick-fil-A.

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“Leave the traditional institutions that have made this country alone and search for your own identity.”

Yeah, let’s let our young men continue to wallow in ignorance about the real world that surrounds them. Let’s teach them that segregation is a good thing to practice.

Great idea, TBone – NOT!

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Now, if you don’t like me pointing out that such babble taints conservatism then I dunno what to say, except good luck promoting conservative thought with that albatross around your neck.

Special for AquaGirl: Matthew 7:5– “Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye.”

It’s so refreshing to know that there are no ridiculous people/positions over on the Left side of the aisle.

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Now keep reading Bruno, all the way into the parts about the Holy Spirit and your heart.

Since you appear to be so willing to wrap yourself in the Grace of God, why are you unwilling to extend the same courtesy to your fellow travelers, regardless of their sexual orientation?? And forget about the “they’re sinners” crap. We’re all sinners, dude.

I’m not a psychiatrist, but you seem to have some deep problems, my friend.

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“For example: 90% of people in attendance at UGA games are UGA fans, but far less than 4% of Americans are UGA fans.”

Sorry, Kyle, but you may not insert regionalism (as well as a further narrowing down via specific event) into a discussion which occurs nation-wide.

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I’m not a psychiatrist, but you seem to have some deep problems, my friend.

Bruno – Jesus told believers that they would be hated in this world and he was right.

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“I’ll gladly stack up my familiarity with the Bible against either of you two pretenders any day”

Gotta love that “I’m better than you 3rd grade arguement.”

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Gays are already in Scouts and will continue to be for as long as the organization exists. They serve as leaders and also as scouts.

Anyone is a fool to think otherwise. It is no different than any other segment of society. For various reasons, they are just not telling you they are gay, but that doesn’t make them any less gay because they didn’t tell everyone they work with, their neighbors, family or organizations they belong too.

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The scouts should table the issue. To endorse one way or the other would be a victory to those seeking to politicize it. Leave in place any de facto DODT.

Anyone upset with that approach is someone seeking to promote their alternative lifestyle in the scouts; however, to assuage such an argument, create, if not already in existence, a policy prohibiting any type of sex ed discussion, leaving that area to the kids’ parents. And promote a position of no sex before marriage (and for those so gung-ho on the same-sex marriage issue, leave the orientation of marriage to be discussed, along with sex ed, between the boys and their parents).

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Unfortunately, it’s long been known that gay youth have much higher rates of suicide when compared to their straight peers. Much of this has been attributed to societal attitudes which demonize these individuals. What happens to the teenage youth who is dedicated to the scouts but is also discovering / realizing that he is gay? What impact of the Boy Scouts message on this youth? What message does a “don’t ask don’t tell” policy send to that individual who is already struggling with who they are? The author is wrong to imply that this decision is not ultimately about the youth within the organization. He is wrong.

As an Eagle Scout who – as an adult – has reluctantly decided that I cannot support an organization which harms its youth through its discriminatory practices, I find myself agreeing with the article about one thing. A Scouting movement that cannot keep up with the times will be destined to find itself irrelevant in the worst case and a fringe movement in the best case.

There may be no good “out” for the scouts. But, Scouting is ultimately about doing the right thing even when it is difficult! I hope the national movement does the right thing for the sake of the sake of all its youth.

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“In 5 years I whole-heartedly believe this will be a non-issue and those who promote invisibility in the stead of justice will have the blood of generations of boys denied equal opportunity on their hands.”

Talk to the Supreme Court who ruled in favor of the BSA. The SCOTUS is anything but invisible.

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Thanks bu2 – that has been my thought – that the Methodist church has been pretty successful at managing different views on this topic. There are Methodist churches who welcome gay people, and others that feel that homosexuality is a sin – and it seems to work for the church.

Why wouldn’t it work for the Scouts?

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The BSA needs to do some soul-searching. Does it want to be a large organization supported by corporate donations (and therefore obligated to “adjust” its moral standards to attempt to please them)? Or maybe a smaller organization, funded by the parents of the scouts and a smaller corporate donor base that will support the traditional moral standards?

Hmmm…to sell out or not sell out…we’ll see where this ends up.

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“There may be no good “out” for the scouts. But, Scouting is ultimately about doing the right thing even when it is difficult! I hope the national movement does the right thing for the sake of the sake of all its youth.”

And who exactly will define what is right? You do not believe in absolutes??? The Supreme Court has already ruled in favor of the BSA. Are you telling us that your beliefs are “right” and the SCOTUS beliefs are “wrong”???

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Gotta love that “I’m better than you 3rd grade arguement.”

In case you forgot, MiltonMan, it was you who started in with the “Crack open your Bible” challenge. Looks like you changed your tune when it didn’t go your way.

But, please, let’s just cut to the chase. Why don’t you and Aesop publicly state that your place in heaven is assured, then we can move on.

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“Bruno – Jesus told believers that they would be hated in this world and he was right”

What you don’t understand is that Jesus NEVER told you to be hateful, so that people would in turn hate you. Instead he said to love your neighbors, and to do good to those who hate you. and to turn the other cheek, and, when someone wants to steal your shirt, offer him your coat also.

You might be wise, Aesop, to be a little less haughty about your ‘christian’ faith, for your own good.

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For those yammering about the Bible as the source of moral guidance …from Exodus

1“Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. 2When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. 3If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall go out alone. 5But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ 6then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.

7“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8If she does not please her master, who has designated hera for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. 9If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. 10If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. 11And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

The “Word of God”?…

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Yes the Supreme Court has ruled in favor of the BSA.

The current issue isn’t about the legality of whether the BSA can exclude gays or whomever, but if they want to allow gays into the BSA, which of course means “openly” because they are already there.

This isn’t a court case but an internal issue with the BSA. Citing the court case all day will not stop the BSA from allowing this vote to go forward.

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“let’s start throwing sh%t against the wall”

I was not aware that you considered equality to be sh%t, TBone.

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“It does not require one to be of a particular faith, only that, as I recall it from my days as a Scout, members acknowledge the existence of “a higher being.””

Sounds just like the twelve step program. How fitting.

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There is a big difference between preferring same sex relations and being a risk to kids. My guess is that many troop leaders are currently gay but nobody knows since no peculiar situations have arisen..dont’ ask don’t tell may be a better policy. Of course IMO, if a local leader goes public, it is up to the parent to decide.

“let me get this straight, a bunch of boys go into the woods, they rub sticks together, sew patches on a sash amd then return to vote on whether gays can lead a troop..”

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I do find it quite interesting that bible verses are being thrown back and forth from each “side” to buttress their arguments………anybody else see the irony in that?

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SBinF

February 11th, 2013
11:49 am

I think from a practical perspective, homosexuality has been around as long as heterosexuality and is exhibited in over 1500 animal species.

If there is a god as espoused in various religions, seems to me this is his will…kinda like his will when you kid gets killed by a drunk driver..

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@Peadog…11:47

Indeed they do!

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I do find it quite interesting that bible verses are being thrown back and forth from each “side” to buttress their arguments………anybody else see the irony in that?

I most certainly do, md, which is why I enjoy doing so.

I’m still waiting on our self-appointed patron saints here, Aesop and MiltonMan, to publicly declare whether their own place in heaven is assured or not. As self-declared Men of God, I would think they should have no trouble doing so. That is unless they don’t have the courage of their convictions. Personally, I think they’re both cowards who hide behind the Bible to justify their own prejudices.

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When will murder finally make on the list?

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Kyle, you are right, either way it goes it will not work out well for the BSA. Reminds me of the Susan Komen contraversy with giving money to Planned Parenthood. People who were shocked they were in bed with PP stopped giving. Those who liked PP were shocked they would stop giving to PP and demanded they continue. Both groups got angry at Komen and they have never recovered.

I see the BSA contraversy becoming similar. Either choice is bad for them. They should have stuck with where they were, and not raised this debate again, by dithering with their standards.

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Most kids who are not involved in scouts think it is geigh anyway. Private club is what it is.

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Tibs – I read the Constitution, some time ago, I admit, and I do not recall the part where we should just have at it. You mind showing it to me?

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Personally, I think they’re both cowards who hide behind the Bible to justify their own prejudices

Don’t let this sink any deeper than it needs to Bruno. If you got a point, then make it. If you don’t, then throw some cheap personal insults around.

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Aesop I have no issues with homosexuality. My issue, my core issue, is that the republican party, my political home for 24 years until I quit in 2002, has been destroyed by dirty, filthy disgusting perverted fundamentalist religion. We Goldwater conservatives despise the religious right and we want them out of our party.

There is good news on the horizon – Karl Rove’s new PAC. I fully expect them to throw money into the Georgia Senate race next year and defeat that religious right whack-job Paul Broun. You know, the guy that says science comes “straight from the pit of hell.” What a worthless loser. Even if he is a UGA grad.

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From a cub scout manual on the spiritual issue:
“The Boy Scouts of America has always held steadfastly to the principle that a Scout has a duty to God, but the organization also has always been completely non-sectarian. BSA does not promote any specific religion. We do encourage youth members and their families to be active in their own faith, in keeping with the BSA Delaration of Religious Principle.”

“From the non-sectarian nature of BSA, it naturally follows that the leadership for your son’s spiritual development, both within and outside Cub Scouting, must come primarily from you.”

There are religious badges you can earn within scouts for various Christian groups, including Protestant, Catholic, LDS and Orthdox, as well as Buddhist, Baha’i, Hindu, Islamic and Jewish. I counted 19 different badges covering the various groups.

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You’ve got adults destroying good things because they can’t bend it to their will, like PP and the Susan B. Komen Foundation.

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Interestingly, the Boy Scouts in other countries, such as Canada and European countries, have no problem with gay scout leaders or members. Only ignorant Americans seem to be so backward. Kyle is still pandering to his mouth-breather crowd, as well, trying to attribute false-equivalency (oh those bad ol’ libruls do it too!). Kyle, you’re an embarrassment. You conservatives have been shown for the joke you really are. If the comments made in this thread were made about any other group of people, such as blacks or Jews, this blog would be banned and Kyle strung up in effigy.

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Don’t let this sink any deeper than it needs to Bruno. If you got a point, then make it. If you don’t, then throw some cheap personal insults around.

Though I’m sure you’ll never understand it, I have the deepest reverence for the message of the Bible. Jesus’s exhortations to live by the Spirit of the Law are proven mathematically by Godel’s Incompleteness Theorem, and dovetail nicely with the teachings of the Buddha and Lao Tzu. Yet in Jesus’s own time, groups emerged which perverted the promise of Grace to further their own worldly goals of power and control.

Obviously I’m not qualified to judge anyone but myself, but you sure don’t come across on the blog as the Man of God that you proclaim yourself to be.

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Aesop

In all liklehood, you will never mature to the point of realizing The Bible is nothing but expty words if it is not capable of being tested by experiment.

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“I want to kill somebody and these laws here are discriminating against me.

Stop the discrimination Now!”

Dumbest post of the day @ 12:02 by Aesop.

Of course, the intelligent among us would note that while what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own bedroom doesn’t affect one’s life, liberty or property, murder . . .

. . . actually does.

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Don’t Tread:

“Hmmm…to sell out or not sell out…we’ll see where this ends up.”

The sell-out is all but guaranteed. Many of the people who will ultimately make this decision are compensated by the BSA in the form of salaries or directly influence the final decision mkers. Loss of major corporate sponsorship equates to either a reduction in income or unemployment. I will be shocked and amazed if these people hold fast to a principle when personal adversity very likely will be the result.

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“You’ll never “reform” me, trust me on that one.”

That’s because reform requires a modicum of intellectual curiosity and capacity.

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I think BSA will be fine and it will survive this. Sooner or later gays will be treated equally by the organization.

I think the recent proposal is a good compromise: let each troop (troup?) decide for themselves (or district or whatever it is).

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In all liklehood, you will never mature to the point of realizing The Bible is nothing but expty words if it is not capable of being tested by experiment.

indigo–Godel’s Incompleteness Theorem explains why we need to look to the Spirit of the Law, and can’t rely on the Letter of the Law. Godel proved that no set of axioms (rules) will ever be consistent or complete:

http://www.myrkul.org/recent/godel.htm

Form the article: ” There is the idea that consciousness might be a kind of superset of the universe, and thus through consciousness we might understand the universe. Yet we must realize that consciousness and the universe represent a yet larger system or universe to “understand” ( if that word still applies ). This continues iteratively as well.

We can perhaps move beyond the self-referential part of the paradox by moving beyond the self: becoming through some higher dimensionality or level of complexity something with no coherent self, or clear perception- point.

The Zen answer to what to do next is that real truth is in everyday life. This may well be so: in a universe where knowledge defeats us, what can we do but be what we are? We have to ask why it is that it matters that knowledge of the universe be moved into symbolic representation in our minds. The information we seek is in existence around us at all times, happening in the patterns we seek to understand and quantify. What good is there in this understanding? Clearly we are evolutionarily driven to this attempted understanding, but is there a better reason to be had?”

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Bruno your post brings to mind a quote that I read several years ago. It’s stuck with me because of how very accurate it is.

“Witness the fetid parasite that is James Dobson. Multiply his insanity by access to real power and the result is Sharia law.”

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TBone, get this straight (pun intended). I am not a liberal. I am a Constitutionalist. You aren’t ready to debate that.

And this is ALL about equality. Always has been. This is about treating a class of human beings differently than another class of human beings. If someone wants to have an awards show for blacks, that is fine with me, as long as there is an awards show for everybody first and foremost to meet the definition of equality.

There is.

What you don’t have is an equivalent in scouting, which is why it fails the equality test. Now, if you want to show me where segregation of any kind has worked for the betterment of the society as a whole, have at it. Otherwise, it seems to have worked against the advancement of society in the long history of mankind.

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Perhaps a separation of Church and Scout is due, especially
if a better scouting organization is the result.

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“Common sense says if the organizations can not enforce their values, then there is no need for the organization.”

And since it is specific religions which preach homosexuality is a sin, and the Scouts are not a religious organization (as has been proven here multiple times), what “values” are not being enforced if they allow homosexuals into their group, Rafe?

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millstone one used for grinding usually turned by Aseop.

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Buzzy

To a degree I’m with you on the age issue, but it is more than just whites, but nice try.

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Bruno – 12:36

Godel’s theorems are of mathematical logic and can hardly apply to any sort of Religious philosophy.

The “from the article” piece is essentially metaphysics, which is as barren of being proven as Christianity.

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Hasn’t the Supreme Court confirmed the scout’s policy on this matter? If you (Tiberius) are such a staunch constitutionalist you should respect the court’s decision. No one is advocating segregation or discrimination but rather let this private organization operate the way it sees fit. Someone will always have their panties in wad.

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Aesop – 12:53

You’re supposed to “love thy neighbor as thyself”. Calling people “morons” just is soooooo UNCHRISTIAN.

You had better call your fundamentalist pastor over for prayer and counseling. Together, you two can knell, hold hands, and pray for your forgiveness.

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Politico

Yes, cuts both ways, they can’t complain about loss of contributions. People should feel free to only support organizations and people they agree with, that is what I do.

Tib
Tradional family values. Mom and Pop, brothers and sisters, working together, respecting each other, to build a strong family and a successful man. Could work with a non tradional family as well, but that is not what they organized around, and if they want to change to include that, great, but the choice should not be forced on them by government, society, contributors, etc. Those people should form another better scouting organiztion if BSA doesn’t want to change their values.

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“you cowards are the ones that fight Christianity and appease islam.”

I just ignore all religions.

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BTW, there is no outside group instigating this issue with the BSA. For the most part, gay groups don’t give a rat’s ass about the BSA anymore, as long as PUBLIC money isn’t spent on them. This is a decision by the BSA themselves due to pressure from THE INSIDE, from their own TROOPS who are tired of the exclusionary rules. Isn’t this what conservatives have wanted, that organizations be able to decide for themselves? Just like with “states rights”, conservatives prove to be the biggest hypocrites on the planet.

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“In all liklehood, you will never mature to the point of realizing The Bible is nothing but expty words if it is not capable of being tested by experiment.”

Might be the pot calling the kettle black……one needs to understand that all beliefs are just that, beliefs. And just because we currently (operative word) can not test a theory does not equate to the existence of the possibility.

I’ve said it many times before when it comes to religion, it is a belief system, but I would suggest folks read up on the “science” (what we think we know as of today) surrounding the Shroud of Turin and one will always leave open the possibility that one is wrong.

As for the Shroud, it is said that even with today’s advanced technology the Shroud can not be duplicated……..explain that and one may have a better understanding of “possibilities”.

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one needs to understand that all beliefs are just that, beliefs. And just because we currently (operative word) can not test a theory does not equate to the existence of the possibility.

md–At the root of every body of “knowledge”, including “scientific knowledge”, lies a whole set of unspoken assumptions. Extremely intelligent folks get a glimmer of that now and again, but your average rube doesn’t. And, not so coincidentally, it is the rubes who express great certainty in their “knowledge”. In particular, the Bible thumpers seem to have great certainty about their wild claims.

In my case, I was lucky enough to go to a college in which the unspoken assumptions were never ignored. On every test, you had to state the assumptions which the equations were built on, or you received no credit.

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but the choice should not be forced on them by government, society, contributors, etc.

No one is forcing the Scouts to do anything. The Scouts are entitled to exclude gays if they want. They have freedom of association.

Claiming freedom of association for yourself but defining other people’s non-participation as “force” against you is unabashed hypocrisy.

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And, not so coincidentally, it is the rubes who express great certainty in their “knowledge”.

Excuse me, but what exactly is bruno doing as he speaks? Did we discover a parallel universe in our extensive travels and now live in it?

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I really have other things to do and shouldn’t give in to the temptation of getting deep into this discourse but some of these comments disgust me due to the hypocritical lack of tolerance from some on the left. First of all it’s a fact in spite of disagreement from some that Christianity is woven into the fabric of this nation from its birth. There is a large segment in our society who believe in God and that the word of God exists in the Holy Bible. If you’ve read both the Old and New Testaments in the Bible you know it’s made very clear that God views homosexual practice as a sin. Now you can call such people of which I’m one fundementalists, neandrothals, bigots, homophobes or whatever else you wish, however, when you do so, you yourself become a bigot as well as a hypocrite. You become both a bigot and a hypocrite because on one hand it’s bigotry to be intolerant of beliefs that have existed in this country from our very beginning. You’re a hypocrite because you call others intolerant and bigoted when you engage in that practice yourselves. In addition to those who believe in Christianity and the Holy Bible you have many in our society who may not be believers but none the less view homosexual behavior as a deviant sexual perversion and cringe at the thought of their children being indoctrinated by teachers in the classroom teaching them to accept behaviors that they as parents view as sexual perversions. Now we all know that some public school systems have taught students even at the elementary level subjects pertaining to alternative sexuality. It should be understandable why many would be concerned that similar teachings could occur within the BSA should it allow openly homosexual adults to become directly involved with their children or worse yet have their children molested by a homosexual pedophile. Once again as I posted earlier I don’t understand why anyone who has same sex attractions but still has a healthy motivation to work with youth needs to have their sexual orientation made known. Maybe the BSA asks that question in the application but if not, why not follow a DADT policy and so long as no individual steps over the line and discusses their sexual orientation and as long as it’s kept it private there shouldn’t be a problem.

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“Not to mention, how did all this come into existence? Did it all just pop out of the tv set? There is Something responsible for Creating this, there has to be. You can go off and stare at the atoms all day, or you wake up. Your choice.”

Well, that is a never ending circle discussion and always will be in an infinite universe.

If “God” created everything, where did he/she/it come from?

I think life just is…………..and it’s forever infinite.

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Don’t forget what lies at the heart of most churches, i .e. Love one another and that is what happens.

If that’s what it was all about, Dusty, I wouldn’t have a word to say in opposition.

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