Debate about gay members unlikely to end well for Scouts
Yesterday was Scout Sunday in the United Methodist churches that sponsor more than 11,000 Boy Scout troops and Cub Scout packs. That figure ranks the Methodists second among all sponsors of Scout units, right behind the Mormons and ahead of the Catholics.
Together, those three churches essentially own the franchise for nearly half of all Scout units, serving two in five boys in the program nationwide. Including all other faith-based organizations, both figures rise to roughly two-thirds.
That’s about half of what you need to know to understand the difficulty the Boy Scouts of America faces as it deals with calls to admit gay youth and adults after 103 years of disallowing them.
The other half is that pressure put on the BSA by secular groups, such as businesses and large non-profits, comes largely in the form of financial contributions they withhold from the organization until it meets their core conviction that excluding gays is wrong.
Which runs counter to a core conviction for many of the BSA’s largest religious sponsors that homosexuality is a sin.
It’s no surprise, then, that the Scouts’ board members decided Wednesday to wait until May to decide whether to keep the ban or lift it completely or in part, by allowing local Scout groups to decide whether to admit gays.
No one should expect their decision, whatever it is and whenever it comes, to resolve this conflict of convictions. Or to portend a bright long-term future for the BSA.
It would not last long as an organization that allowed some local units’ policies to, in the eyes of other local units’ sponsors, violate the Scout Oath’s dictum to keep oneself “morally straight.” A house divided against itself will not stand.
Its secular donors and ex-donors make clear the BSA will continue to lose critical funding if it keeps the ban. Its dominant cohort of religious sponsors make it equally plain they will not countenance ending the ban.
Anyone who understands the vital role played by Scouting’s sponsoring organizations – as I do, having spent 11 years as a Cub Scout and then Boy Scout, eventually serving in a multi-state, regional role — knows the threat the religious groups issued is an existential one for the BSA.
The charters for the troops they sponsor are up for renewal every December, so the fall could be both severe and swift. The churches could render the BSA a shell of its current self, if not dead, as soon as next year if they stopped sponsoring Scout units.
So, many of us wonder if those seeking change are ignorant of the BSA’s structure, naive about the likely fallout, or just less interested in its fate than their agenda.
All the more so, because most disputes about the ban — like almost all fights within the BSA, frankly — center on adults who used to be Scouts or adults who want to be Scout leaders. That is, they chiefly center on “adults,” not “boys.”
It would be far simpler if the debate were only about the boys: only about who learns how to tie knots and how not to burn eggs over a campfire. There has long been a de facto “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy for youths in Scouting. Simply making that official might assuage faith groups’ concerns while expanding access for boys.
But it wouldn’t comfort those who demand a complete change, those who know national treasures make good trophies, and those who would prefer the BSA serve no one if it won’t include them.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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229 comments Add your comment
Bruno
February 11th, 2013
11:53 am
You might be wise, Aesop, to be a little less haughty about your ‘christian’ faith, for your own good.
Cherokee–Some folks never seem to understand the difference between “righteousness” and “self-righteousness”.
The bottom line is that no one, saint or heathen alike, wants to see children harmed. But, that’s not what is at issue here. What is at issue is some folks are very uncomfortable knowing that there are folks in the world who are fundamentally different from themselves. It all goes back to our biological underpinnings of being “pack animals”. At the deepest level, whether one is “in” the group, or “out” of the group is critical to our mental well-being, and sometimes critical to our very survival. Most certainly, some folks DO deserve to be ostracized from society, namely murderers, rapists, etc. Others are ostracized for far less benign reasons. Yet, the feeling, and consequences are often the same. As a thinking people, I think we need to decide exactly WHO deserves such treatment, and to use the Bible to decide is asinine IMO.
md
February 11th, 2013
11:54 am
I do find it quite interesting that bible verses are being thrown back and forth from each “side” to buttress their arguments………anybody else see the irony in that?
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 11th, 2013
11:55 am
What you don’t understand is that Jesus NEVER told you to be hateful, so that people would in turn hate you.
Thank you for opening the door for me, cherokee!
John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? – Luke 3:6
That was John the Baptist. Read some time, when you get a chance, what Jesus thought of John.
Stevie Ray
February 11th, 2013
11:55 am
SBinF
February 11th, 2013
11:49 am
I think from a practical perspective, homosexuality has been around as long as heterosexuality and is exhibited in over 1500 animal species.
If there is a god as espoused in various religions, seems to me this is his will…kinda like his will when you kid gets killed by a drunk driver..
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 11th, 2013
11:58 am
“Read some time, when you get a chance . . . .”
The U.S. Constitution, Aesop.
You might learn something about equal treatment under the law.
JDW
February 11th, 2013
11:59 am
@Peadog…11:47
Indeed they do!
Stevie Ray
February 11th, 2013
11:59 am
md
February 11th, 2013
11:54 am
None more than me. Why do all those with faith have to arrogance to press such “virtues” on anyone else or otherwise continue to retard sociological progress? I think socially we are a couple decades behind Europe. Faith based groups find themselves on the downturn..
Believe what you want…its a right. Just don’t think you have the right to try to sell me…especially using quotes from a book that has no relevance in my life.
Bruno
February 11th, 2013
12:00 pm
I do find it quite interesting that bible verses are being thrown back and forth from each “side” to buttress their arguments………anybody else see the irony in that?
I most certainly do, md, which is why I enjoy doing so.
I’m still waiting on our self-appointed patron saints here, Aesop and MiltonMan, to publicly declare whether their own place in heaven is assured or not. As self-declared Men of God, I would think they should have no trouble doing so. That is unless they don’t have the courage of their convictions. Personally, I think they’re both cowards who hide behind the Bible to justify their own prejudices.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 11th, 2013
12:00 pm
So what’s the cut off point for sins you find acceptable, Bruno, in your Woodstock version of the Bible, and should paraded around in the face of the children?
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 11th, 2013
12:01 pm
When will murder finally make on the list?
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 11th, 2013
12:02 pm
I want to kill somebody and these laws here are discriminating against me.
Stop the discrimination Now!
1, 2, 3, 4 what are fighting for!
murder now!
Can I get a duh?
Rafe Hollister
February 11th, 2013
12:02 pm
Kyle, you are right, either way it goes it will not work out well for the BSA. Reminds me of the Susan Komen contraversy with giving money to Planned Parenthood. People who were shocked they were in bed with PP stopped giving. Those who liked PP were shocked they would stop giving to PP and demanded they continue. Both groups got angry at Komen and they have never recovered.
I see the BSA contraversy becoming similar. Either choice is bad for them. They should have stuck with where they were, and not raised this debate again, by dithering with their standards.
WA
February 11th, 2013
12:02 pm
The BSA now feels tremendous financial pressure to abandon a principle. The answer is really quite simple. Set the example! Do not compromise a principle for the thirty pieces of silver.
CC@ 9:55 Well said!
Jefferson
February 11th, 2013
12:04 pm
Most kids who are not involved in scouts think it is geigh anyway. Private club is what it is.
Bruno
February 11th, 2013
12:04 pm
I think from a practical perspective, homosexuality has been around as long as heterosexuality and is exhibited in over 1500 animal species.
Hey, Stevie Ray. Glad to see you stopping around. We need a little sanity here once in a while.
Still crunching numbers all day?? One of these days I’ll forward a copy of my actuarial exam scores to Kyle for verification of my total nerd-dom. I haven’t met anyone else who took the tests just for the fun of it.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 11th, 2013
12:04 pm
Tibs – I read the Constitution, some time ago, I admit, and I do not recall the part where we should just have at it. You mind showing it to me?
md
February 11th, 2013
12:07 pm
Unfortunately, this is not the first blog where the bible/Jesus has been used as the throw down card. I get it a lot when I try to make a distinction between the cant’s and wont’s…….it suddenly turns into “what would Jesus do?”.
Personally, I would hope he would tell the wont’s to get off their ass and take care of themselves, but that’s just me…….
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 11th, 2013
12:07 pm
Personally, I think they’re both cowards who hide behind the Bible to justify their own prejudices
Don’t let this sink any deeper than it needs to Bruno. If you got a point, then make it. If you don’t, then throw some cheap personal insults around.
Bruno
February 11th, 2013
12:07 pm
So what’s the cut off point for sins you find acceptable, Bruno, in your Woodstock version of the Bible, and should paraded around in the face of the children?
If you can’t understand the basis for secular laws, Aesop, then I can’t help you.
One last chance to publicly declare your place in heaven, or you’ll be forever know as a coward around here.
breckenridge
February 11th, 2013
12:10 pm
Aesop I have no issues with homosexuality. My issue, my core issue, is that the republican party, my political home for 24 years until I quit in 2002, has been destroyed by dirty, filthy disgusting perverted fundamentalist religion. We Goldwater conservatives despise the religious right and we want them out of our party.
There is good news on the horizon – Karl Rove’s new PAC. I fully expect them to throw money into the Georgia Senate race next year and defeat that religious right whack-job Paul Broun. You know, the guy that says science comes “straight from the pit of hell.” What a worthless loser. Even if he is a UGA grad.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 11th, 2013
12:10 pm
That last comment was directed at a fellow “conservative.” I myself, when it involves mealy mouthed liberals, will be the first to toss around personal insults, keeping an eye on blog conduct rules, of course.
So save your shrieking replies.
bu2
February 11th, 2013
12:11 pm
From a cub scout manual on the spiritual issue:
“The Boy Scouts of America has always held steadfastly to the principle that a Scout has a duty to God, but the organization also has always been completely non-sectarian. BSA does not promote any specific religion. We do encourage youth members and their families to be active in their own faith, in keeping with the BSA Delaration of Religious Principle.”
“From the non-sectarian nature of BSA, it naturally follows that the leadership for your son’s spiritual development, both within and outside Cub Scouting, must come primarily from you.”
There are religious badges you can earn within scouts for various Christian groups, including Protestant, Catholic, LDS and Orthdox, as well as Buddhist, Baha’i, Hindu, Islamic and Jewish. I counted 19 different badges covering the various groups.
Politico
February 11th, 2013
12:13 pm
” I myself, when it involves mealy mouthed liberals, will be the first to toss around personal insults, keeping an eye on blog conduct rules, of course. ”
At least we know your immaturity is consistent and not an act. That is the 1st step in working to improve yourself.
Congratulations
bu2
February 11th, 2013
12:14 pm
You’ve got adults destroying good things because they can’t bend it to their will, like PP and the Susan B. Komen Foundation.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 11th, 2013
12:15 pm
That was an insult, politico, that you didn’t even get.
You’ll never “reform” me, trust me on that one.
Edward
February 11th, 2013
12:15 pm
Interestingly, the Boy Scouts in other countries, such as Canada and European countries, have no problem with gay scout leaders or members. Only ignorant Americans seem to be so backward. Kyle is still pandering to his mouth-breather crowd, as well, trying to attribute false-equivalency (oh those bad ol’ libruls do it too!). Kyle, you’re an embarrassment. You conservatives have been shown for the joke you really are. If the comments made in this thread were made about any other group of people, such as blacks or Jews, this blog would be banned and Kyle strung up in effigy.
Politico
February 11th, 2013
12:18 pm
“You’ll never “reform” me, trust me on that one.”
Who is looking to reform you? I just said you made your 1st step via your admission of who and what you are as an individual. What you do with it from here on out is your business.
Good luck and congratulations
Bruno
February 11th, 2013
12:18 pm
Don’t let this sink any deeper than it needs to Bruno. If you got a point, then make it. If you don’t, then throw some cheap personal insults around.
Though I’m sure you’ll never understand it, I have the deepest reverence for the message of the Bible. Jesus’s exhortations to live by the Spirit of the Law are proven mathematically by Godel’s Incompleteness Theorem, and dovetail nicely with the teachings of the Buddha and Lao Tzu. Yet in Jesus’s own time, groups emerged which perverted the promise of Grace to further their own worldly goals of power and control.
Obviously I’m not qualified to judge anyone but myself, but you sure don’t come across on the blog as the Man of God that you proclaim yourself to be.
Aquagirl
February 11th, 2013
12:19 pm
That was an insult, politico, that you didn’t even get.
Oh we got your intent…but are still laughing at your sudden “oh noes, stepped in it there.”
indigo
February 11th, 2013
12:22 pm
Aesop
In all liklehood, you will never mature to the point of realizing The Bible is nothing but expty words if it is not capable of being tested by experiment.
MANGLER
February 11th, 2013
12:22 pm
It’s a private religiously based group. I don’t see why they can’t do what they want. Just like with Chick-fil-Gate, you can chose to go or not to go. The only time that would change is if the organization gets special tax status or direct federal funding. Then it would need to fit into federal guidelines. Other than that, leave it alone.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 11th, 2013
12:24 pm
“I want to kill somebody and these laws here are discriminating against me.
Stop the discrimination Now!”
Dumbest post of the day @ 12:02 by Aesop.
Of course, the intelligent among us would note that while what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own bedroom doesn’t affect one’s life, liberty or property, murder . . .
. . . actually does.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 11th, 2013
12:27 pm
“and I do not recall the part where we should just have at it.”
When you can’t back up your knowledge, changing the argument is just as effective at showing your lack of same, Aesop.
CC
February 11th, 2013
12:28 pm
Don’t Tread:
“Hmmm…to sell out or not sell out…we’ll see where this ends up.”
The sell-out is all but guaranteed. Many of the people who will ultimately make this decision are compensated by the BSA in the form of salaries or directly influence the final decision mkers. Loss of major corporate sponsorship equates to either a reduction in income or unemployment. I will be shocked and amazed if these people hold fast to a principle when personal adversity very likely will be the result.
Bruno
February 11th, 2013
12:28 pm
Aesop I have no issues with homosexuality. My issue, my core issue, is that the republican party, my political home for 24 years until I quit in 2002, has been destroyed by dirty, filthy disgusting perverted fundamentalist religion. We Goldwater conservatives despise the religious right and we want them out of our party.
You’re singing my song, breckenridge. The craziest part about the fundamentalists is that they don’t see the value in keeping church and state separate. Because they are in the majority now, they can’t see the danger if they suddenly became a minority. None of them would be happy under Sharia, but they expect the rest of us to be happy under Christian Law, going so far as declaring this a “Christian Country”, as if you’re not welcome otherwise.
There are religious badges you can earn within scouts for various Christian groups, including Protestant, Catholic, LDS and Orthdox, as well as Buddhist, Baha’i, Hindu, Islamic and Jewish. I counted 19 different badges covering the various groups.
Personally, bu2, I reserve my highest respect for practitioners of the Baha’i faith. On the Christian side, my highest regard goes to the Seventh-Day Adventists. Folks in these groups typically focus on making themselves better people, and don’t spend their lives condemning others.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 11th, 2013
12:29 pm
“You’ll never “reform” me, trust me on that one.”
That’s because reform requires a modicum of intellectual curiosity and capacity.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 11th, 2013
12:32 pm
“Folks in these groups typically focus on making themselves better people, and don’t spend their lives condemning others.”
But condemning others is just so – exhilarating, Bruno!
Didn’t you know that?
Buzzy
February 11th, 2013
12:33 pm
I think BSA will be fine and it will survive this. Sooner or later gays will be treated equally by the organization.
I think the recent proposal is a good compromise: let each troop (troup?) decide for themselves (or district or whatever it is).
TBone
February 11th, 2013
12:34 pm
Tiberius … You are very naive if you think this is about equality. If it was about equality why is there a plethora of officially designated Black (Enter Organization). This is about “fundamentally transforming” or subverting the country most of us (since you libs are so big into polls) have grown to love but now cannot trust.
Bruno
February 11th, 2013
12:36 pm
In all liklehood, you will never mature to the point of realizing The Bible is nothing but expty words if it is not capable of being tested by experiment.
indigo–Godel’s Incompleteness Theorem explains why we need to look to the Spirit of the Law, and can’t rely on the Letter of the Law. Godel proved that no set of axioms (rules) will ever be consistent or complete:
http://www.myrkul.org/recent/godel.htm
Form the article: ” There is the idea that consciousness might be a kind of superset of the universe, and thus through consciousness we might understand the universe. Yet we must realize that consciousness and the universe represent a yet larger system or universe to “understand” ( if that word still applies ). This continues iteratively as well.
We can perhaps move beyond the self-referential part of the paradox by moving beyond the self: becoming through some higher dimensionality or level of complexity something with no coherent self, or clear perception- point.
The Zen answer to what to do next is that real truth is in everyday life. This may well be so: in a universe where knowledge defeats us, what can we do but be what we are? We have to ask why it is that it matters that knowledge of the universe be moved into symbolic representation in our minds. The information we seek is in existence around us at all times, happening in the patterns we seek to understand and quantify. What good is there in this understanding? Clearly we are evolutionarily driven to this attempted understanding, but is there a better reason to be had?”
CC
February 11th, 2013
12:37 pm
TBone@12:34:
You nailed it!
breckenridge
February 11th, 2013
12:37 pm
Bruno your post brings to mind a quote that I read several years ago. It’s stuck with me because of how very accurate it is.
“Witness the fetid parasite that is James Dobson. Multiply his insanity by access to real power and the result is Sharia law.”
Jerry Eads
February 11th, 2013
12:38 pm
Finn & Road, yep, I’ll stand with you two. The haters and bigots (I know, sorry, redundant) are many, however. And they do love to confuse themselves as being in the same camp as reasoned conservative thinkers David, George and (sometimes I’m beginning to think) Kyle.
Like Muslim terrorists today (a tiny minority), the crusader “Christians” of centuries ago, and (sadly) many others today, they seem to believe that some fantasy they call a god supports their hate. I hope they’re wrong.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 11th, 2013
12:42 pm
TBone, get this straight (pun intended). I am not a liberal. I am a Constitutionalist. You aren’t ready to debate that.
And this is ALL about equality. Always has been. This is about treating a class of human beings differently than another class of human beings. If someone wants to have an awards show for blacks, that is fine with me, as long as there is an awards show for everybody first and foremost to meet the definition of equality.
There is.
What you don’t have is an equivalent in scouting, which is why it fails the equality test. Now, if you want to show me where segregation of any kind has worked for the betterment of the society as a whole, have at it. Otherwise, it seems to have worked against the advancement of society in the long history of mankind.
Rafe Hollister
February 11th, 2013
12:42 pm
You’ve got adults destroying good things because they can’t bend it to their will, like PP and the Susan B. Komen Foundation.
Social organizations exist to promote their values. If the values are “bent” into a circle, then what is the point of the organization. It is like the Supremes ruling that the Baptist Student Union had to consider candidates for office that were not Baptist, or Protestants, or even believers. I believed the case involved Vanderbilt University. These organizations then had to move off campus, and their value has become lessened.
Common sense says if the organizations can not enforce their values, then there is no need for the organization.
I have no problem with gays or homosexuals, but I believe in freedom, which includes freedom of association. If the Scouts do not promote values you do not agree with, then don’t join or don’t contribute, simple as that.
Freedom is just a staple with me, you should have the freedom to believe whatever you want, band together with like minded people, and not be pressured to change. If you are out of the mainstream with your values, most likely you will not be very successful, but you should have the freedom to be unsuccessful.
barking frog
February 11th, 2013
12:43 pm
Perhaps a separation of Church and Scout is due, especially
if a better scouting organization is the result.
Politico
February 11th, 2013
12:46 pm
Rafe
Good points as long as you are good with their sponsors closing their wallets.
SC already said that the BSA can exclude gays if they choose, but that doesn’t say a sponsor can’t close their wallet if they choose.
That freedom you speak of cuts two ways.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 11th, 2013
12:48 pm
“Common sense says if the organizations can not enforce their values, then there is no need for the organization.”
And since it is specific religions which preach homosexuality is a sin, and the Scouts are not a religious organization (as has been proven here multiple times), what “values” are not being enforced if they allow homosexuals into their group, Rafe?
Bruno
February 11th, 2013
12:48 pm
But condemning others is just so – exhilarating, Bruno!
Didn’t you know that?
Of course, Ti. Why in the heck do you think I come here??
Bottom line is that we’re all pretty much the same, though some of us are able to dress up our prejudices in a more sophisticated package.
bluecoat
February 11th, 2013
12:49 pm
millstone one used for grinding usually turned by Aseop.