Will national Republicans try to shape Georgia’s Senate race?
As possible candidates to replace Saxby Chambliss in the U.S. Senate continue to sidle up to the proverbial ring with their proverbial hats aimed at it, take a few minutes to read this story from the New York Times about how national GOP figures are trying to get more involved in recruiting and promoting candidates in Senate races across the country. Here’s the gist of it:
The biggest donors in the Republican Party are financing a new group to recruit seasoned candidates and protect Senate incumbents from challenges by far-right conservatives and Tea Party enthusiasts who Republican leaders worry could complicate the party’s efforts to win control of the Senate. …
The Conservative Victory Project, which is backed by Karl Rove and his allies who built American Crossroads into the largest Republican super PAC of the 2012 election cycle, will start by intensely vetting prospective contenders for Congressional races to try to weed out candidates who are seen as too flawed to win general elections.
The project is being waged with last year’s Senate contests in mind, particularly the one in Missouri, where Representative Todd Akin’s comment that “legitimate rape” rarely causes pregnancy rippled through races across the country. In Indiana, the Republican candidate, Richard E. Mourdock, lost a race after he said that when a woman became pregnant during a rape it was “something God intended.”
The story has sparked reactions on the right ranging from sharp criticism to unimpressed indifference. Some have pointed out that more establishment-type candidates didn’t win winnable Senate races last year in states such as Montana, New Mexico, North Dakota, Virginia and Wisconsin. And of course, Rove’s role in George W. Bush’s presidency comes with unfavorable associations of its own: e.g., the creation of Medicare Part D and higher spending more generally.
The piece mentions no possible candidates in Georgia by name, but it does quote Georgia GOP chair Sue Everhart at the end:
Sue Everhart, the head of the Georgia Republican Party, said she did not object to outside intervention. But because open Senate seats do not come along very often, she said,”we have six congressmen who want the job,” which could create a messy and divisive primary regardless of the efforts to control the race.
“The primary has to sort itself out in Georgia,” Ms. Everhart said. “That’s what primaries are for. But we cannot afford to take our eye off the ball. This is going to be a very important election, and it’s paramount that Georgia keeps its Senate seat in Republican hands.”
You can bet the Georgia name on the tip of every tongue at American Crossroads is that of the only semi-official candidate in the race, Congressman Paul Broun of Athens. Broun famously called evolution and the Big Bang theory “lies straight from the pit of hell” and suggested Barack Obama has more allegiance to the Soviet constitution than the American one. These are exactly the kinds of statements the folks at American Crossroads — and, as far as I can tell, nearly everyone in the state GOP hierarchy — would not like to have attached to the Republican nominee for U.S. Senate next year.
The question in my mind is how much of a backlash outside intervention — directed at Broun or anyone else — would spark among Georgia’s grass-roots GOP activists. I’d say that’s also probably the question on the minds of Georgia Democrats, who probably need a nasty, divisive Republican primary starting this year and lasting next July, and even to an August runoff, to have a strong chance at winning statewide in 2014. (It will get easier for them in 2016, 2018 and certainly by 2020.)
Rather than helping avoid such a fight, outside intervention could virtually guarantee one. My take today is that Georgia’s Republican hierarchy is sufficiently committed to fielding a nominee who’s not dangerously inflammatory that Rove’s group would be wise to take a pass. If it decides otherwise, the next 18 months in Georgia politics could be even more interesting than we thought.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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222 comments Add your comment
first
February 4th, 2013
1:24 pm
first
Logical Dude
February 4th, 2013
1:27 pm
quoting the New York Times quote: “The biggest donors in the Republican Party are financing a new group to recruit seasoned candidates and protect Senate incumbents from challenges by far-right conservatives and Tea Party enthusiasts who Republican leaders worry could complicate the party’s efforts to win control of the Senate”
Because it’s obvious to many that the Republicans are hurting themselves by being “too Republican”.
indigo
February 4th, 2013
1:31 pm
This Rove project is a good idea as the Party needs to get away from the extreme right. It will probably work in a goodly number of States.
Unfortunately, it won’t work in Georgia. The large number of dirt dumb voters here insure that someone like Paul Broun would be considered the next great hope for fundamentalist conservatism.
SBinF
February 4th, 2013
1:35 pm
“Broun famously called evolution and the Big Bang theory “lies straight from the pit of hell” and suggested Barack Obama has more allegiance to the Soviet constitution than the American one.”
Yeah, unfortunately such statements will draw him widespread support in Ga, instead of ridicule.
Jefferson
February 4th, 2013
1:39 pm
Rove should go strait to jail, he’s a traitor and you can tell he has never worked a day in his life.
JDW
February 4th, 2013
1:39 pm
There is no doubt that the Republicans need better candidates, but the real problem does not lie with the candidates…it is the voters. In particular the Republican primary voters.
Don't Tread
February 4th, 2013
1:51 pm
It seems that the Republicans are attempting to mirror what the Democrats have already done (i.e. run off any candidate that doesn’t completely toe the party line as dictated by the leadership).
That just reinforces the notion that elections are merely a choice between support of Big Government or support of Big Business unless a viable third party gets involved.
Aynie Sue
February 4th, 2013
1:55 pm
There is a rift in the Republican Party between the moderates, who are misguided conservatives, and the crazies, who are evolution deniers, climate change deniers, immigrant haters, gay haters, women denigrators, rape know-it-alls, and assault weapon lovers.
Rather than attempt to bridge the rift, the scoundrel Rove and his super-rich, senile financial backers should encourage the Party to break into New Republicans, who might gain favor among some voters in the populous states of the Northeast and far West, and the New Dixiecrats, who will carry the poor Southern states and the rural Midwest and Mountain states.
What’s the sense of fighting to hold together people of such radically differing political persuasions?
md
February 4th, 2013
1:56 pm
“but the real problem does not lie with the candidates…it is the voters.”
Understatement of the year…….we all know Obama is in his 2nd term…….
JDW
February 4th, 2013
2:05 pm
@md…”Understatement of the year…….we all know Obama is in his 2nd term…….”
Yep, had the Republican primary voters picked better candidates than Mittens or McCain it might have been different. Instead we had to choose between average and disaster…thank goodness we got average because after the disaster of Duhbya it would have been tough to withstand another.
md
February 4th, 2013
2:09 pm
At least Mittens knows how to do math, something this guy seems to have skipped in school. But he is an attorney, so he has the inflate spending/cost part down pat……….
Road Scholar
February 4th, 2013
2:14 pm
“And of course, Rove’s role in George W. Bush’s presidency comes with unfavorable associations of its own: e.g., the creation of Medicare Part D and higher spending more generally.”
Uh, you left out two unfunded wars!
By intervention, are you insinuated that Georgians are incapable of selecting their own candidate/Senator, regardless of party? Or are you suggesting that the candidate selected should preach Mom, and apple pie, and keep any real personal feelings or positiosn to him/her self until they are elected?
The Last Democrat in Georgia
February 4th, 2013
2:28 pm
{{”The question in my mind is how much of a backlash outside intervention — directed at Broun or anyone else — would spark among Georgia’s grass-roots GOP activists. I’d say that’s also probably the question on the minds of Georgia Democrats, who probably need a nasty, divisive Republican primary starting this year and lasting next July, and even to an August runoff, to have a strong chance at winning statewide in 2014. (It will get easier for them in 2016, 2018 and certainly by 2020.)”}}
Even with a nasty, divisive Republican primary, Georgia Democrats would still have virtually no shot of winning statewide in 2014 because, despite highly-favorable demographic trends that are rapidly-changing the state’s population in their favor, Georgia Democrats just simply don’t have the monetary or organizational resources to compete statewide at this point.
And even if the state’s demographics are even more favorable for Georgia Democrats to compete in statewide races in 2016, 2018, 2020 and beyond, Georgia Democrats will still have problems winning statewide races if they have no money and/or organization in races in which their Republican opponents are guaranteed to be heavily-funded and highly-motivated for the foreseeable future.
If Georgia Democrats want to be competitive enough to actually have a shot at winning statewide races sometime before 2030, they’ll have to come up with boatloads of cash, and fast, to compete against a Georgia Republican Party that is going to be in peak form in terms of financing and motivation over the next few election cycles.
Just Saying..
February 4th, 2013
2:31 pm
May we live in interesting times…
One takeaway from this effort is one that so many posters here still have great difficulty acknowledging: The GOP did poorly in November, and shouting the same themes louder won’t change future outcomes.
Kyle Wingfield
February 4th, 2013
2:33 pm
Road @ 2:14: I’m not really sure I get your question. I’d say those who intervened would be the ones making such an insinuation.
Just Saying..
February 4th, 2013
2:34 pm
“Understatement of the year…….we all know Obama is in his 2nd term…….”
Democracy’s hell, md…
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 4th, 2013
2:49 pm
“Democracy’s hell, md…”
If we actually were in a democracy, Just Saying, yes, it would be even more of a hell than what we are experiencing in our Republic with the ne’er do well’s we elect on both sides of the aisle today.
Cherokee
February 4th, 2013
2:50 pm
“Mittens knows how to do math”? You’re kidding right? Absoluntely none of his ‘proposals’ – of the few that he actually told us about – worked out when you did the math.
I agree with you though, Kyle, if Rove tries to interfere here or in Iowa, the focus of the piece, it will just infuriate the base, who see themselves as righteous defenders of the faith against the big money Washington crowd.
And Broun will iikely get nomintated.
Cherokee
February 4th, 2013
2:51 pm
By the way, I wondered how long it would take the ‘We’re not a democracy, we’re a republic!’ crowd to respond….
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 4th, 2013
2:52 pm
“One takeaway from this effort is one that so many posters here still have great difficulty acknowledging: The GOP did poorly in November, and shouting the same themes louder won’t change future outcomes.”
Not doing as well as they might have based on predictions does not equate to “doing poorly”, Just Saying. They lost a handful of seats nationally and gained seats and control in state and local elections.
That is only “doing poorly” in your warped definition of such.
JDW
February 4th, 2013
2:54 pm
@md…”At least Mittens knows how to do math,”
Really….I was pretty sure Clinton pointed out that as one of his weakest areas.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 4th, 2013
2:54 pm
“By the way, I wondered how long it would take the ‘We’re not a democracy, we’re a republic!’ crowd to respond….”
It will continue until you chowderheads who refuse to learn the significant difference learn that difference, Cherokee.
Thomas Heyward Jr
February 4th, 2013
2:54 pm
At the Georgia Republican convention in 2012, There were some brave, principled people who questioned nominating a person (Romney) that supported the NDAA of 2012.(indefinite detention).
.
Sue Everhart helped silence these patriots…………………..and I remember this for the rest of my life.
Decency left……………..the Georgia Republican party.
.
Let the Georgia republicans listen to Rove and company, swallow their pride , and become authoritarian big-government progressive democrats. Quit wasting everyone’s time.
.
They’re only getting in the way of true freedom-loving, constitutional-respecting REAL opposition.
.
ru
February 4th, 2013
3:01 pm
Kyle,
You left out Congressman Gingrey.
http://mdjonline.com/view/full_story/21457115/article-Gingrey-needs-to-get-his–own–horse-back-in-the-barn-
barking frog
February 4th, 2013
3:06 pm
They always do.
yuzeyurbrane
February 4th, 2013
3:09 pm
Should be interesting. I don’t think logic has much to do with it, considering the size of the egos involved on all sides.
indigo
February 4th, 2013
3:16 pm
Tiberius – 2:54
Wrong again.
At least you’re consistent.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_is_the_United_States_a_representative_democracy
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
February 4th, 2013
3:22 pm
The Republican civil war is truly and rightly joined
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 4th, 2013
3:27 pm
Maybe these guys should focus their attentions on finding a presidential candidate that can beat a two bit tinpot socialist like obozo?
HDB
February 4th, 2013
3:30 pm
Well….I already know where the GOP WON’T look for a candidate………….since they haven’t come ITP for decades…..
Patrick
February 4th, 2013
3:31 pm
Forget the outside intervention. What about the many Georgians who shudder at the thought of a Paul Broun being their Senator? We need a fiscal conservative who believes in efficient and effective government. All the rest of it is baggage that is best left with churches and special interest groups to serve as advocates.
The Snark
February 4th, 2013
3:35 pm
“Georgia’s Republican hierarchy is sufficiently committed to fielding a nominee who’s not dangerously inflammatory.”
So, I guess plain old inflammatory is okay with them?
Cherokee
February 4th, 2013
3:51 pm
Sorry Tib, but you can’t just make up your own definitions for words.
No matter how many times Boortz told you so.
Centrist
February 4th, 2013
3:53 pm
After a little smoke clears, Congressman Tom Price is going to replace Saxby Chambliss.
The real intrigue will be who replaces Price in the House.
It simply will not matter who the Democrats might bother to put forward for either the Senate or the House.
jconservative
February 4th, 2013
4:00 pm
Plainly speaking, if Broun is the nominee I vote for one of the others.
My confidence in Rove matches his career record, not much.
Michael H. Smith
February 4th, 2013
4:14 pm
Vetting candidates has not been one of the GOP’s strong points lately. It is hard to believe that some of those who ran in the last two election cycles weren’t researched better by the local parties. I mean, anarchist, witches, miscarriages caused by a so-called “legitimate rape”?
At the very least the candidates need to be careful in choosing their words wisely enough to be able to give a common sense substantive reason the average person can accept for them making statements that are somewhat reaching, so to speak.
I’m looking Kyle, but I can tell you early on that several names have been eliminated already because of really wacky statements they’ve made.
Kyle Wingfield
February 4th, 2013
4:17 pm
Snark @ 3:35: A Republican would have to be very inflammatory — dangerously so, I’d say — to lose that election in 2014. I was writing purely from the perspective of electoral politics.
Just Saying..
February 4th, 2013
4:24 pm
“Not doing as well as they might have based on predictions does not equate to “doing poorly”, Just Saying. They lost a handful of seats nationally and gained seats and control in state and local elections.”
Disagree, Tib. It was a great opportunity missed. You had an incumbent with lots of minuses, in a really poor economy, and couldn’t beat him. A great chance to take the Senate was wasted by candidates who are the subject of this column. If the country agreed with Republican actions in the House, the Party would have picked up seats. They lost seats. In spite some really egregious gerrymandering.
Together, the GOP’s poor performance has resulted in this effort to, let’s say “shape”, state primaries. People with real skin in the game, i.e., big bucks, want a better return on their investments. They didn’t get those big bucks by ignoring actual outcomes. Poor outcomes…like November 2012.
Matz
February 4th, 2013
4:25 pm
Centrist: “The real intrigue will be who replaces Price in the House.”
Actually, the REAL intrigue will be the story that unfolds about what you obviously don’t know about Dr. Price. Hint: It’s not the secret he thinks it is. If a nasty primary ensues, go ahead and pop some popcorn, sit back, and enjoy the show. This could get really entertaining.
Dusty
February 4th, 2013
4:28 pm
Ho Hum…I see the welcoming committee of liberals has jumped right in. After all the study they give to Republicans, seems like they would join the sensible conservative party they study.
But no! They stay with the spendthrifts, pernicious healthcare, Constitution breakers, illegal “guests”, and alll forms of deliberate dependency, not to mention the white flag wavers and the mortgage & mortuary production people.
Sensible Republicans in Georgia( like me) will find sensible people and send them to Congress. We have sent thoughtful Isakson, sensible Saxby and nimble-witted Newt who could even keep a budget in tow.
Yep, we have sent brainpower to Congress over the years. We will do it again. We want to give Congress the great energy we possess. They surely need it to offset the deaf & dumb sycophants bowing to the president. He needs more than that crowd to keep him entertained in the” presidential toothpick palace” he has constructed as a liberal led government. More Republican glue is needed to make it into something called “good governance”. Republicans plan to do it.
Michael H. Smith
February 4th, 2013
4:32 pm
Boortz has little to do with determining what is a Democracy and what is a Republic and why the founders chose not to be a Democracy.
From Webster
Democracy
a: government by the people; especially: rule of the majority (prime definition of a Democracy)
b: a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections.(closer to a the definition of a Representative Republic where representation is chosen indirectly
e.g. the electoral college whereby we elect the President.)
Madison was very clear as to why the founders avoided choosing a “pure democracy” (of majority rule) for our form of governance which is found in the Federalist paper number 10.
From this view of the subject it may be concluded that a pure democracy, by which I mean a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person, can admit of no cure for the mischiefs of faction. A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert result from the form of government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths. Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of government, have erroneously supposed that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality in their political rights, they would, at the same time, be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions, and their passions.
http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa10.htm
Centrist
February 4th, 2013
4:33 pm
@ Matz – You are obviously a partisan, purposely trying to spread mud-racking, unfounded gossip. Politically motivated people like you are a dime a dozen. Maybe Bookman or Galloway will be interested – suggest you send it to them.
If Price had such a skeleton in his closet, it would be all over the liberal media where fact checking is marginal at best concerning Republicans.
Ray
February 4th, 2013
4:34 pm
On January 25th, Kyle you stated:
“Paul Broun: The congressman from Georgia’s 10th District is first on the list alphabetically but probably would be first on the list if I were ranking the possibilities by likelihood of running, too. He has been not-so-coy about giving consideration to running for the seat. Update at 1:25 p.m.: A statement from Broun says he is still “prayerfully considering my own future.”
And, people shuddered everywhere. But not you, Kyle? Papers instantly reported the GOP very well might use its clout to make sure Broun was NOT Georgia’s Republican Senate primary winner, to save the party the embarrassment, and to greatly improve its long term future.
skipper
February 4th, 2013
4:43 pm
Kyle,
Nobody has to sacrifice principles, and though an independent, I am moderate-conservative. However, some of the far-right comments that were made during the campaign were off the charts! The fringe can be in both parties. Perhaps we should interject something that is largely missing in today’s political process: common sense!
Just Saying..
February 4th, 2013
4:45 pm
“After all the study they give to Republicans, seems like they would join the sensible conservative party they study.”
Dusty, your premise is that people have left the Republican Party.
Perhaps you might give some consideration to the theory that, to a greater extent, the Republican Party has left former supporters in the lurch. People who still have great affection for it, and know how necessary a real-world Republican Party is to the health of this republic…er, democracy, Tib.
Just Saying..
February 4th, 2013
4:48 pm
‘If Price had such a skeleton in his closet, it would be all over the liberal media where fact checking is marginal at best concerning Republicans.”
Oh no! You mean like, say, a bankruptcy revealed after voting was over?
Kyle Wingfield
February 4th, 2013
4:48 pm
Ray @ 4:34: Exactly the point I was making. It probably won’t take any out-of-state intervention to ensure someone other than Broun is the GOP nominee. So I’m not really sure what the “But not you, Kyle?” question is getting at.
Matz
February 4th, 2013
4:49 pm
Centrist,
If I were as you say I am, I would have actually spread the gossip. Why wouldn’t I? Oh yeah, because I don’t think such things are pertinent to how a person conducts his professional life. Some of his duped supporters may disagree, however, if he ever faces an opponent who has a shot at the seat and the finances to fight for it. The Georgia Sixth is a piece of cake for the chosen gatekeeper of gated communities and protector of the Koch Constitution. If the good doctor wants the Senate seat, it will be quite a different endeavor. Hey, why not? If next year’s GA primary season is half as entertaining as last year’s Presidential one, it will be a good time all around!
Dusty
February 4th, 2013
4:49 pm
Oh please. Do keep up the good laughs.
A “sensitive” someone here has suggested that Romney was not good at math. Whoopee!
So Democrats elected a man that does not know that borrowing money to pay a huge debt is increasing the debt. That “lifting the ceiling” does not make the debt any less but only makes it possible to increase the debt..
Qbama the great mathematician !! OH, if only!
Michael H. Smith
February 4th, 2013
4:49 pm
I do agree skipper, the absence of common sense is the present political reality in this country. Though, as it is said, the only thing common about common sense is that it is not common to all.
Dusty
February 4th, 2013
4:56 pm
Just saying,
Have no worries about Republicans. They are not single idol worshipers like Democrats. A study of possible candidates gives us the chance to make the best selection.
Obviously, Democrats do not take much time in consideration.
MarkV
February 4th, 2013
4:56 pm
The question whether the USA is or is not a democracy has been debated on the Kyle’s blog more times than I can remember, and still, each time someone writes the word democracy, out of woodwork here appear those who can never learn, to argue that “we are not a democracy.” It is absolutely incredible, sad, but unfortunately not surprising.
skipper
February 4th, 2013
4:58 pm
Michael……good observation. We need to get the left-loonies (like Cynthia McKinney) and the right-loonies (Mourdock) out of the politccal process….extremism either way is ridiculous! I reckon common sense may be interpreted as “what makes sense to me”, but there is room for rational thinking and sticking to principles without demanding (see the two heretofore mentioned folks) that the world know that you are a lunatic!
Dave
February 4th, 2013
5:09 pm
“[A] nominee who’s not dangerously inflammatory…” And that would be who? Google Reps. Price Broun, Gingrey for some of their crazy views. Then there are the junior folks in the state Assembly. They aren’t inflammatory? I really hope the Dems get behind this race with money and a good candidate – it will be their last best chance for a some time.
mike
February 4th, 2013
5:19 pm
I think it would be great to have Rove and his group pushing a candidate here in Ga. They can continue with all that knowledge and ignorance they displayed during the last election. There is a segment of the population here who always fall for the okie doke. Interesting to see which women’s rights they will be trying to legislate away this time.
Hillbilly D
February 4th, 2013
5:28 pm
Personally, I wish all the “operatives” would leave us the hell alone and let us elect our own Senator. In my opinion, if you’re not eligible to vote in an election, it’s best to mind your own business.
Lynnie Gal
February 4th, 2013
5:29 pm
So, Republicans are afraid of Republicans like Broun. Really? Just because he wears a tin foil hat when he’s at home and believes every rightwing conspiracy theory that passes around the internet? You’re kidding me. You mean some Republicans actually may want to win a national election again and have concluded that these guys make them look crazy? I believe that Republicans are too far gone. They’ve tarred themselves with hatred and ignorance to the point that even some Republicans are telling them to stop being the “stupid party.” That tells it all, folks.
Cherokee
February 4th, 2013
5:34 pm
‘nimble-witted Newt’?
Oh Dusty.
Bless your heart….
td
February 4th, 2013
5:41 pm
Cherokee
February 4th, 2013
2:50 pm
“And Broun will iikely get nomintated.”
Broun will not win a primary battle in Georgia over Kingston, Price or Gingrey.
Just Saying..
February 4th, 2013
5:45 pm
“So Democrats elected a man that does not know that borrowing money to pay a huge debt is increasing the debt.”
Dusty, you may be willing to concede that there are more Democrats than Republicans in the country (to vote Obama in), but I’m not sure the “math” supports that. As far as idol worship, be sure you’re not on any mailing list to receive a first strike of a US Reagan coin.
And if not Keynesian economics, what macro economic theory do you subscribe to? Surely, I know you’re not going offer up good ol’ kitchen table budget theory. Will you?
Just Saying..
February 4th, 2013
5:49 pm
“‘nimble-witted Newt’?
Oh Dusty.
Bless your heart….”
Perhaps Dusty is being influenced by other, nimbler, aspects of Newt…
I’m referring to policy nimbleness.
Of course…
md
February 4th, 2013
5:53 pm
““Mittens knows how to do math”? You’re kidding right? Absoluntely none of his ‘proposals’ – of the few that he actually told us about – worked out when you did the math.”
Made sense to me, maybe I missed the talking points that I was supposed to read.
Surely made more sense than -1T every year with no budget……….that should be easy math for just about everybody.
And what’s the latest projection on Obamacare? Double since passage?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 4th, 2013
5:56 pm
“How_is_the_United_States_a_representative_democracy”
Key word being “representative”, Indigo.
Your error-filled streak continues unabated.
md
February 4th, 2013
5:58 pm
“Surely, I know you’re not going offer up good ol’ kitchen table budget theory. Will you?”
If I’m not mistaken, those are based on fundamentals…….of which everything is. For as long as I can remember folks seem to do well when they “get back to the basics”.
All I know is if I’m in a deep hole financially I don’t keep spending hoping the Boss is going to miraculously give me a raise to cover it all (the vaunted revenue the dems keep preaching about).
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 4th, 2013
5:59 pm
“The question whether the USA is or is not a democracy has been debated on the Kyle’s blog more times than I can remember”
Because the thick-headed like you, MarkV, continue the nonsense that it is.
When it is not.
We have a little thing called the U.S. Constitution that keeps it from being so.
You should read it sometime. I believe there are versions with pictures available for you to better understand it.
Just Saying..
February 4th, 2013
5:59 pm
“Have no worries about Republicans.”
And Dusty, the worry is not about Republicans being successful in Georgia. It’s the concern over the GOP’s ability to fill an essential role in all of American politics, not just the Confederacy. You know, where those electoral totals can be closer to 332, rather than 206.
Just Saying..
February 4th, 2013
6:04 pm
““Surely, I know you’re not going offer up good ol’ kitchen table budget theory. Will you?”
If I’m not mistaken, those are based on fundamentals…….of which everything is. For as long as I can remember folks seem to do well when they “get back to the basics”.”
md, one point of departure would be who prints money, and who doesn’t…
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
February 4th, 2013
6:05 pm
If we were a true democracy, Obamacare would not be law and the Falcons would not be getting a new stadium.
Centrist
February 4th, 2013
6:07 pm
td posted “Broun will not win a primary battle in Georgia over Kingston, Price or Gingrey.”
Obviously true (except Kingston will not likely win or place), but the liberal dreamers here like to point to the right wing fringe. I don’t recall any posters pretend to be worried that Cynthia McKinney would ever be elected to state wide office.
Sailfish
February 4th, 2013
6:07 pm
I have three words: Remember Ralph Reed
Now that’s one slimy eel if I ever seen one! One arm around your shoulder the other hand pickin your wallet with a goofy grin. Hats off to Georgian’s for recognizing a fraud..
dusty
Please stop whining about the debt!! You just keeping reminding people of your man who put us there, remember? But back then instead of whining about the debt all you were saying is “he kept us safe” well obama has one upped him by getting bin laden and…”keeping us safe”….unfortunately obama also gets bush debt plus interest…
MarkV
February 4th, 2013
6:08 pm
Ignorants like Tiberius are those I had in mind when I wrote about people who could never learn.
Hillbilly D
February 4th, 2013
6:12 pm
Romney got over 60% of the vote in Idaho, Kentucky, Nebraska, Utah, West Virginia, Wyoming and Bleeding Kansas. Not a Confederate state in that list.
yuzeyurbrane
February 4th, 2013
6:16 pm
Centrist—you seem to forget that Cynthia McKinney got booted out of office because she lost a Democratic primary. A majority of Democrats just got sick of the racist and paranoid statements coming out of her mouth. Will the Republicans do the same with their crazies? I’m making no predictions here. We will see.
CC
February 4th, 2013
6:18 pm
I’m certain that the national Republican Party will attempt to influence the campaign for the vacated Senate seat. To what extent they will be successful in that endeavor will be seen as the campaign unfolds. I am already weary of a Republican Party that wishes to mirror the dimocrat party. If the national Republican Party is successful in reshaping the party to resemble the dimocrat party, one of those two political parties is unnecessary and it is time for a viable third party to emerge.
Frankly, neither political party serves the interests of the people or the Republic currently. If the politicians from both current parties are adept at anything, it is in their quest to garner and maintain power while enriching themselves and their cronies. They enjoy the best of healthcare (NOT Obamacare!), enjoy lavish lifestyles while in office and have a retirement which surpasses the best dreams most of us have.
The only people suffering in the U. S. today are the gainfully employed. The politicians and moochers (but I repeat myself) are doing just fine, thank you very much!
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 4th, 2013
6:19 pm
Feel free to discuss where I am wrong, MarkV.
Oh, yeah. That’s right.
You can’t.
indigo
February 4th, 2013
6:19 pm
Tiberius – 5:56 “key word being representative”
No, Tibbie, the key word is “Democracy”.
Show some honesty and just admit when you’re wrong.
md
February 4th, 2013
6:20 pm
“md, one point of departure would be who prints money, and who doesn’t…”
Printing money is a short term stimulus with sometimes long term consequences, it is hardly a solution, if it was, all we would have to do is print 16 trillion and be done with it.
It’s a gimmic, NOT a fundamental……
Centrist
February 4th, 2013
6:21 pm
We are splitting hairs with the term “democracy”. The U.S. is a federal republic comprised of 50 states which does not practice direct democracy but rather a representative democracy indirectly controlled by the people. This understanding of the term was originally developed by James Madison, and notably employed in Federalist Paper No. 10.
Dusty
February 4th, 2013
6:22 pm
KYLE,
My lovely list of Washington “loonies in action” disappeared like Mary’s little lamb. Do you know where to find it? Maybe it will come home if not moderated or eaten by wolves in lib clothing or vice versa. If you bring it back, I will pass on all those “Bless your heart” (s) I received.
Meanwhile I go to warm the leftovers. Ham in mushroom sauce on rice. Delicious! I will serve it on my fine kitchen table. You betcha..
Just Saying..
February 4th, 2013
6:26 pm
“If we were a true democracy, Obamacare would not be law and the Falcons would not be getting a new stadium.”
Obamacare IS the law, and taxpayers WILL help the profit making Falcons build a $1B stadium.
And yet we wonder why it takes the military to persuade others to adopt our model…
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 4th, 2013
6:28 pm
“Show some honesty and just admit when you’re wrong.”
This from the tool who makes incorrect assumptions about virtually everybody he disagrees with, and never admits to his failures.
A democracy, Indigo, is when there is one person, one vote on every ISSUE. No representatives to get in the way and let the majority rule over the rights of the minority.
A democratic republic is when voters elect representatives to carry out their wishes, under the guidance of a document such as the Constitution which LIMITS both the power of the government and the majority from imposing their will on the minority.
Too bad you missed that when they covered it in Civics 101.
We are a democratic republic, Indigo.
Not a democracy.
Just Saying..
February 4th, 2013
6:32 pm
“Romney got over 60% of the vote in Idaho, Kentucky, Nebraska, Utah, West Virginia, Wyoming and Bleeding Kansas. Not a Confederate state in that list.”
My, we ARE sensitive about ‘Pubs dominating the Confederacy. Which adding in those states doesn’t change.
But here’s what those states added in get you: 206.
Matz
February 4th, 2013
6:33 pm
The people who really run the world do not change with our silly little elections. Our nation is built on the premise that we are empowered, which is probably what makes us so astoundingly arrogant — as a people, and as individuals — to believe that our little opinion on anything really matters. Sure, our way of life makes it possible for some to break through socio-economic barriers in a way that has not been prevalent throughout the history of our planet. And YES, we can effect change on issues we feel strongly about, provided we have enough people behind an idea who are willing to fight for that idea for decades. Women’s rights, for example. In 1920, American women finally won the right to vote. (It was NOT given, or allowed; it was won after a long struggle.) But an equal rights amendment? Fuh-gittaboutit!
Bottom line, the people who own the real wealth and power and run the world just love for us to sit around and nitpick at each other about stuff that doesn’t change a darn thing. Sometimes they let the little guys win some little victory over this or that, as it makes us feel “empowered.” We’re schmucks: rebellious, over-confident, selfish, headstrong, and so stubborn that we think we really are empowered. And since feeling good is entirely subjective, eh… what difference does it make that we’re not?
CC
February 4th, 2013
6:34 pm
A democracy is three beagles and one rabbit deciding what’s for supper . . .
MarkV
February 4th, 2013
6:35 pm
Discuss anything with Tiberius? Is he kidding?
This is someone who argues that this country is not a democracy, because it is a representative democracy.
Therefore, I guess he would argue I am not using a computer, because I am using a laptop computer. That you do not have a TV, because you have a plasma TV. That you do not fly a plane, because you fly a jet plane. …. Does this infantilism ever end?
The system of government of this country is a representative democracy, therefore it is a democracy, and the specific form of it is a constitutional republic. The UK has a representative democracy, in the specific form of a parliamentary democracy, and it is also a constitutional monarchy, etc., etc., End of story.
Just Saying..
February 4th, 2013
6:36 pm
“Printing money is a short term stimulus with sometimes long term consequences, it is hardly a solution, if it was, all we would have to do is print 16 trillion and be done with it.
It’s a gimmic, NOT a fundamental……”
ECON 101 needed here…
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
February 4th, 2013
6:42 pm
No, I am just someone who is amazed that you are capable of using a computer, MarkV.
Because you’re sure not capable of making a cogent argument.
This is what is known as “calling out the fools who argue the ridiculous point when people say that 50% of Americans don’t pay taxes without inserting the word “income” first”.
If you tools want to correct others for being imprecise to make your point, then I am here to return the favor to you when you are just as imprecise.
CC
February 4th, 2013
6:47 pm
The United States is NOT a democracy. A democracy is where the majority rules. This is often without regard for the rights of the minority.
For example. If the United States were a democracy, the majority of people could decide that they do not like a particular religion, and outlaw its practice. However, since we are a republic, with limits on the powers of government over religion (amongst other things) the minority (those practicing that religion in this example) are protected from the whims of the majority.
Sailfish
February 4th, 2013
6:47 pm
matz
My advice to you is find a nice sunset and just contemplate your being; all will be revealed.
MarkV
February 4th, 2013
6:48 pm
Poor Tiberius. So infantile, trying to compensate for his failures with arrogance and deflection..
MarkV
February 4th, 2013
6:52 pm
CC is trying to outdo even Tiberius in ridiculousness. Democracy and republic are not competing terms. A democracy can be, but does not have to be a republic.
CC
February 4th, 2013
6:52 pm
MarkV:
“Poor Tiberius. So infantile, trying to compensate for his failures with arrogance and deflection..”
You have “raised the bar” on arrogance to a level no one else can possibly match.
CC
February 4th, 2013
6:55 pm
MarkV:
I hereby accept your unconditional surrender on behalf of Tiberius.
Thanks for playing!
md
February 4th, 2013
6:55 pm
“ECON 101 needed here…”
More like a dictionary on your end……
Fundamentals = basics.
Printing money is a gimmick that MAY or MAY NOT work, NOT a fundamental.
Spending only what one has is a fundamental, the budget will always be balanced…..no gimmicks required.
md
February 4th, 2013
6:57 pm
“Democracy and republic are not competing terms.”
They don’t mean the same thing either, hence the need for two words…….
Michael H. Smith
February 4th, 2013
6:58 pm
Right on Tiberius. Sad thing is people like MarkV who willfully ignore the Federalist papers and the U.S. Constitution.
It is stated nowhere in the U.S. Constitution each state shall guarantee each state in this union a “democracy” and for good reason, as anyone but indigo, MarkV or Cherokee can read the writings of Madison’s federalist paper number 10 the reasons why the founders wrote this in Article 4 Section 4 “The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government,
We are a Republic, a Representative Republic in fact. To say we are a Representative Democracy is contrary to the protection of minority rights, as Madison point out; as well property rights are in grave jeopardy.
Remember Tiberius MarkV advocates a for “Social Democracy”. Where individual and property rights would be mostly non-existent at some stage of Marxism.
MarkV
February 4th, 2013
7:02 pm
CC @6:55 pm
“I hereby accept your unconditional surrender on behalf of Tiberius.”
How fitting, to use the infamous Tiberius’s stupidity.
CC
February 4th, 2013
7:07 pm
MarkV:
If you want to discuss stupidity, find a mirror so that you can properly identify the subject matter . . .
Michael H. Smith
February 4th, 2013
7:07 pm
Notice the use of the term “Representative Democracy”. That should tell any reader where these people are coming from ipolitically.
Social democracy
Social democracy is a political ideology that considers itself to be a form of reformist democratic socialism.[1] It advocates for a peaceful, evolutionary transition of society from capitalism to socialism.[2][better source needed] It asserts that the only acceptable constitutional form of government is representative democracy under the rule of law.[3] It promotes extending democratic decision-making beyond political democracy to include economic democracy to guarantee employees and other economic stakeholders sufficient rights of co-determination.[3] Common social democratic policies include advocacy of universal social rights to attain universally accessible public services such as: education, health care, workers’ compensation, and other services including child care and care for the elderly.[4] Social democracy is connected with the trade union labour movement and supports collective bargaining rights for workers.[5] Most social democratic parties are affiliated with the Socialist International.[1]
Social democracy originated in 19th century Germany from the influence of both the internationalist revolutionary socialism and doctrine of communism advanced by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels; and the reformist socialism of Ferdinand Lassalle.[6] The Marxists and Lassallians were in rivalry over political influence in the movement until 1868-1869 when Marxism became the official basis of Germany’s Social Democratic and Labour Party.[7] In the Hague Congress of 1872, Marx modified his stance on revolution by declaring that there were countries with democratic institutions where reformist measures could be advanced, saying that “workers may achieve their aims by peaceful means, But this is not true of all countries”.[8] Marx stressed his support for the Paris Commune due to its representative democracy based on universal suffrage.[8]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy
There is no kinder way to say this, a “Representative Democracy” is socialist form of government.
indigo
February 4th, 2013
7:09 pm
MarkV – 6:52
So true.
Now, one of the tools is implying you’re a Marxist.
Some of these home schoolers are stupid beyond belief.
Georgia , The "New Mississippi"
February 4th, 2013
7:09 pm
Georgia is a Red (neck) State. This is how GOP Johnny Rebs behave. ….You know you already know this !
Michael H. Smith
February 4th, 2013
7:14 pm
One of those informed people, unlike you indigo, has put forth documentation that undeniable proves your foolishness and ignorance of the facts.
MarkV
February 4th, 2013
7:15 pm
Here comes Michael H. Smith, trying to outdo both Tiberius and CC in their ignorant efforts to deny the undeniable. At least Tiberius admitted that we were a representative democracy; MHS denies even that.
No wonder. This is the same MHS, who called me a Marxist who advocated Social Democracy.
Totally ignorant of the fact that social democracy is, by definition, a rejection of Marxism. His recent charge was,
“Ah, Christian MarkV is in tizzy again, cause his quest to push atheism upon us being shown what it is. “
Which is akin to writing
“Ah, Christian MarkV is in tizzy again, cause his quest to push atheism upon us being shown what it is. “
Totally hopeless. I have better thing to do – such as having dinner – than to answer such stupidities.
Michael H. Smith
February 4th, 2013
7:16 pm
Oh and indigo, the facts I’ve put forth prove you stupid beyond any doubt.
indigo
February 4th, 2013
7:17 pm
Tiberius – 6:42 “I am here to return the favor to you when you are just as imprecise”
“A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds”
Fits you to a tee
http://quotesnack.com/ralph-waldo-emerson/a-foolish-consistency-is-the-hobgoblin-of-little-minds-ralph-waldo-emerson/
indigo
February 4th, 2013
7:18 pm
Michael H. Smith
You would not know “facts” if they came up and bit you on the ass.
Michael H. Smith
February 4th, 2013
7:20 pm
I’ve put forth the facts. propagandize all you want with more of your useless drivel MarkV. You have nothing from the federalist papers or the Constitution to back up one useless statement you have made to support your claim of democracy. In fact evidence has been posted to show that your Representative Democracy is a socialist form of government.
Michael H. Smith
February 4th, 2013
7:23 pm
Oh MrakV, do show me where I ever called YOU a Christian.
Michael H. Smith
February 4th, 2013
7:25 pm
indigo
I both know them and have posted them so now you can keep lying or refuse to read or comprehend them.
md
February 4th, 2013
7:25 pm
Is “stupid” really necessary folks?
Sometimes, one’s choice of words reflects more on them than those they are directing them towards……and on occasion I’ve been guilty as well.
Michael H. Smith
February 4th, 2013
7:30 pm
You should realize how hopeless your propaganda has been MarkV and find a crowd that will accept anything you say simply because YOU said it.
I’ll take the words of the Madison and the Constitution that we are to have a Republican form of government, over your propaganda to promote your socialist “representative democracy”
Michael H. Smith
February 4th, 2013
7:40 pm
md if the facts prove you stupid for arguing when you know you were wrong, I suppose you can rightly blame me for pointing it out.
md
February 4th, 2013
7:57 pm
I think one makes a better argument when they present their case and let it stand on it’s merits without denigrating the argument with insults….correct?
Cherokee
February 4th, 2013
8:22 pm
“Broun will not win a primary battle in Georgia over Kingston, Price or Gingrey.”
I would bet some of my hard earned Obama recovery socialist money that he would, if Rove etal jump in with lots of money to try to influence the base against him. That will infuriate the whackadoodle tea party crowd, and they’ll turn out in droves to support Broun.
Cherokee
February 4th, 2013
8:31 pm
“Now, one of the tools is implying you’re a Marxist.”
indigo, that’s their stock in trade – if you disagree with them on something – anything – you must be a communist, or a marxist. Meanwhile they post loooooonng diatribes tyring to prove that a representative democracy isn’t a democracy.
(and of course all of them, I expect, rushed out to vote against letting gay people marry the person of their choice… so much for the tyranny of the majority)
mike
February 4th, 2013
9:06 pm
Can I guess yes?
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 4th, 2013
9:27 pm
If Republicans want to win big on the national level, they have to come to understand that phony liberal concern is what it is. Phony liberal concern.
I’m not sure if Rove and his gang have reached that conclusion yet.
Why does your voter base continue to shrink, aisle reachers?
Just Saying..
February 4th, 2013
9:47 pm
““ECON 101 needed here…”
More like a dictionary on your end……”
Maybe remedial reading, then, “I play an md on Kyle’s blog”
Go back to the first reference, the reading for comprehension part.
Gov’ts print money as a Fundamental (if that helps you) function.
That be macro economics.
Kitchen table budgets by families, as a rule, don’t print currency.
That be micro economics.
Start there…
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
February 4th, 2013
9:57 pm
JDW: after the disaster of Duhbya it would have been tough to withstand another
————————
Yeah, 5% unemployment, $300 billion deficits, and that AAA credit rating were really killing us.
Just Saying..
February 4th, 2013
10:00 pm
So in year 8 of W’s reign, Hank Paulsen ran a scam, and stampeded George into an unneeded TARP?
tell the truth
February 4th, 2013
10:05 pm
Aesop’s Fables and other Lib Economic Theories You wouldn’t recognize real concern if it bit you in the butt- that would be because you repubs have no concern for anyone except your selfish selves.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
February 4th, 2013
10:09 pm
Libs show their “real concern” by voting for politicians who will steal their neighbors property and give it to them.
Scum.
Just Saying..
February 4th, 2013
10:14 pm
“Scum”
You know, Bar, that’s always been my starting description for Democrat politicians.
How Republicans managed to achieve a lower regard, by the general public, is one of life’s mysteries.
md
February 4th, 2013
10:15 pm
“Gov’ts print money as a Fundamental (if that helps you) function.”
Paper money is a vehicle, not a fundamental.
Much like oil or water is to paint…..just the vehicle.
The fundamental is the value of which is diminished when our misfits decide to print more paper.
tell the truth
February 4th, 2013
10:17 pm
How did Rove do in the just ended general election with the good old boys or girls that he bankrolled and supported? I think he went ohfer if I’m not wrong!!!
Just Saying..
February 4th, 2013
10:21 pm
“Paper money is a vehicle, not a fundamental.”
Of course. And the wealth of nations is the amount of gold they own…
md
February 4th, 2013
10:32 pm
“And the wealth of nations is the amount of gold they own…”
The wealth of nations is whatever one is willing to give money for…..everything is worth nothing until a buyer is found.
Back to that kitchen table fundamentals:
How much do we owe? – How much do we have? = Oh crap!
Fundamentals…..every dollar we spend that we do not have must be generated in some form or fashion and if it’s not we get the Oh crap. Whereas if we spend only what we have odds are the Oh crap never arrives…..fundamentals.
The gimmicks are at best “maybes”, and nothing more……
Just Saying..
February 4th, 2013
10:49 pm
md, by mixing oil & water, paint & gold, kitchen tables & national wealth, you’re fast approaching one of two outcomes:
Nobel prize for global trade revelation,
or
Blog embarrassment.
I’d hint the more likely one, but you’re keen on fundamentals.
My best thought: quit digging, read up, feel better.
md
February 4th, 2013
11:14 pm
The starting point with national wealth (any wealth for that matter) is to understand it’s all worthless until sold……..use gold as an example, you never sell it what do you have?
A gold rock…….
Try eating that when the situation gets tight.
MarkV
February 4th, 2013
11:23 pm
Tiberius, Michael H. Smith and CC,
What a display of ignorance, combined with arrogance. First Tiberius argues that the US is not a democracy, because it is a representative democracy. Then Michael H. Smith denies even that, and eventually submits the “brilliant” argument that social democracy “asserts that the only acceptable constitutional form of government is representative democracy under the rule of law.” Instead, he argues, what differentiates the US from that is that we are a republic, never mind that the communist and socialist countries have been republics. He then babbles nonsense about representative democracy not guaranteeing minority rights – never mind that all western countries have variations of the representative democracy as systems of government, and that the US republic has had rather serious problems with guaranteeing the minority right until rather recently. Another “brilliant” argument is citing the Article IV, which guarantees “every STATE in this union a republican form of government.” Not the federal government, which is a republic nevertheless, which is not in any conflict with representative democracy. And CC? He is not even capable of arguments, just of stupid insults.
MarkV
February 4th, 2013
11:25 pm
Michael H. Smith @7:23 pm
“Oh MrakV, do show me where I ever called YOU a Christian”
Oh MHS, do show where I wrote that you had called me a Christian. Reading comprehension failure?
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
February 5th, 2013
12:50 am
Just Saying: “…by the general public…”
——————————
The general public think American Idol and People magazine are important intellectual stimulation, and that Obozo is doing a good job. So much for what the general public thinks.
JDW
February 5th, 2013
7:49 am
@LBB…”Yeah, 5% unemployment, $300 billion deficits, and that AAA credit rating were really killing us.”
DId you sleep through 2007 and 2008 or are you just grappling with mental illness?
independent thinker
February 5th, 2013
7:53 am
Karl Rove = leader of the stupid party along with Rush Limbaugh, Broun sounds like a perfect nominee to replace Saxby. Maybe he will run some anti-disabled veteran ads like Saxby did. Karl and Limbaugh would be impressed.
JDW
February 5th, 2013
7:55 am
@md…”The wealth of nations is whatever one is willing to give money for”
Now you are almost in the realm of rational thought…check out the latest T-Bill rates…the world is lining up to give us money.
The point you miss with “kitchen table fundamentals” outside of the whole printing press selling bonds thing is lifespan. Those folks sitting around the kitchen table must plan for a time when thier earning power wanes and thier life winds down. The US Government does not have that issue. As time marches own the opportunity to generate more growth and more revenue simply increases making the debts of the past smaller in comparision. The government is not bounded by 30 year loans, if they choose to think in 100 year increments thats ok.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
February 5th, 2013
7:55 am
Not at all, JDW. Merely providing some perspective for comparison to the disaster that is the Obozo regime. Do I need to recount the negative fiscal, economic, and sociological results of four years of your failed messiah?
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
February 5th, 2013
7:57 am
independent thinker: Karl Rove = leader of the stupid party
——————-
Your “stupid party” ran smaller deficits, rang up less debt, employed more people, had fewer on welfare, and maintained a higher credit rating than the current party in power.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
February 5th, 2013
7:58 am
Debt as a percentage of GDP is rising under Obozo.
Good thing, or bad?
indigo
February 5th, 2013
8:41 am
MarkV
Tiberius, Michael and CC are the Moe, Larry and Curley of this site.
(not sure which is which)
JohnnyReb
February 5th, 2013
8:54 am
I haven’t the time to read three pages of posts, so if this is plowed ground I apologize.
I’m still waiting for a respected Conservative to define the term “hard right.” So far identifying positions as hard right has come from the Left or a RINO. If one buys-in to Legacy Media, and even some on FOX, anything not kin to the Left’s position is hard right.
I’m convinced more than ever that National stage politicians in place longer than two terms, and 99% of National media need to be purged – give Washington and the beltway an enigma.
It should also be noted that some, including myself, have stopped giving money to the Republican Party until they tell us what they intend to do that is different from the last election? Eliminating candidates that don’t necessarily agree with the establishment is not going to get my money.
JohnnyReb
February 5th, 2013
8:57 am
re, my 8:54 – that should have been enama, not enigma. Can we get spell check on blogs?
southpaw
February 5th, 2013
9:15 am
JohnnyReb
Spell check would probably give you “enema” instead of “enama.” But the notion that you can spend $20 billion on something one year, then $23 billion the next, and call it a spending cut because you didn’t spend the $25 billion you were thinking about, is a bit of an “enigma.” I’m not sure it makes since anywhere other than Washington.
md
February 5th, 2013
9:35 am
“Now you are almost in the realm of rational thought…check out the latest T-Bill rates…the world is lining up to give us money. ”
You left out the word “currently”………then take it from there.
” Those folks sitting around the kitchen table must plan for a time when their earning power wanes and their life winds down. The US Government does not have that issue. As time marches own the opportunity to generate more growth and more revenue simply increases making the debts of the past smaller in comparison.”
Wrong, ALL gov’ts have that issue. You seem to be thinking life is a one way street……it isn’t. As time marches on, there is also the very real possibility that everything goes into the tank vs having all unicorns and roses with your growth and revenue…….it’s a 50/50 proposition.
Ask Greece, Spain, Zimbabwe, the old USSR……all countries I’m sure thought just as you do.
Others are currently buying our debt because we still have the world’s reserve currency, but there is no guarantee we keep that in the future……then what?
China is on track to become the world’s largest economy and is working hard at getting their currency on the market as a reserve currency…….then what?
Don’t fool yourself into believing our status is always guaranteed to go up…..just a few short years ago many, many folks fooled themselves into believing houses (a commodity) would only rise in value……then reality brought them back to earth real quick.
Fundamentals…..spend what you have is always a safe play………
Dirty Dawg
February 5th, 2013
9:56 am
Sorry Charlie, but voters in the next election will want a candidate that ‘is’ smart, not that just ‘thinks’ they’re smart…and every single one of the Repub Congressmen have done and/or said things that not only were ‘not smart’ but were downright idiotic and will serve as embarrassing-enough moments to disqualify em. And if you’re wondering what that Kingston guy did, all you have to know that he was the first Congressman Stephen Colbert featured in his ‘Know Your Congressman’ – or whatever it was called – from a few years ago. The ‘bit’ that the NRC forbid their members to continue to subject themselves to after four or five did their interviews not realizing that they were just ’skinin their ignorance’…he’s (Kingston) the ‘poster boy’ for thinking you’re smart.
breckenridge
February 5th, 2013
10:04 am
I’m not a Rove fan but this PAC is absolutely necessary for the survival of the republican party. Divisive evangelicals completely lacking in common sense such as Paul Broun, James Inhofe, Mike Pence and Michelle Bachmann have absolutely no business serving in the United States Congress.
Reason, logic and science must trump belief in supernatural voodoo if the party is to thrive again.
Just Saying..
February 5th, 2013
10:13 am
“The general public think American Idol and People magazine are important intellectual stimulation, and that Obozo is doing a good job.”
So, some part of you Does live in the real world…
md
February 5th, 2013
10:16 am
“Reason, logic and science must trump belief in supernatural voodoo if the party is to thrive again.”
Logic dictates that in an infinite universe just about everything is a possibility……until one can prove there is no god, one should understand it is always a possibility…….
The word is “belief”, and it applies to all of us as we have no way of knowing at the moment……
Just Saying..
February 5th, 2013
10:22 am
“Your “stupid party” ran smaller deficits, rang up less debt, employed more people, had fewer on welfare, and maintained a higher credit rating than the current party in power.”
Uh, Barry….if your Party actually has all these attributes, why are you not the one in power?
breckenridge
February 5th, 2013
10:31 am
md – I’m not making an argument against the existence of God. What we simply cannot do is make policy based upon the belief that the Bible is word-for-word true, as evangelicals believe. Not only is it idiotic but it is also blatantly unconstitutional:
“It is impossible for humans to influence the climate because God is still up there. It is outrageous and arrogant to believe humans are capable of changing what He is doing to the weather.” James Inhofe.
“We must support Israel because the Bible says so.” Michelle Bachmann
This kind of garbage HAS to go if the GOP is to survive.
Dusty
February 5th, 2013
10:40 am
Well, I see we have a jolly morning of beautific bloggers here. Their comments are ruminatingly repetitious tending to be slightly spurious not to mention lightly lackadaisical. So with all that, we patiently wait for Kyle to give us the red meat over which to snarl. Grrrr
OH well, I’ll come back later to see if any one has lost a tooth, scored a point or committed hari-kari. Gonna be a lovely day!! Later……..I hear Kyle approaching…..
JDW
February 5th, 2013
11:43 am
@LBB…”Merely providing some perspective for comparison to the disaster that is the Obozo regime. ”
Then you need to learn the meaning of the word perspective. In this case the perspective needed for a comparison is at the beginning.
Duhbya inherited a balanced budget, a country at peace and a reasonably sound financial system then trashed the budget, slept through the threats and breached his oversight responsibilities.
Eight years later Obama inherited a $1.3 trillion dollar budget deficit which has been improved upon, two wars which are now winding down and put Humpty Dumpty back together again.
If you had any sense you would be thankful for the progress rather yowling like a wingnut.
JDW
February 5th, 2013
11:48 am
@LBB..”Debt as a percentage of GDP is rising under Obozo.”
Not intended to be a factual statement…which is good since it is a lie.
Obama inherited a deficit at 10.1% of GDP. It has declined in each year of his administration and the projection for FY 2013 is 5.5%.
Hillbilly D
February 5th, 2013
11:48 am
We need to pass the collection plate and buy Kyle a rooster.
JDW
February 5th, 2013
11:52 am
@md…you just don’t get it…maybe you should try some online Econ 101 courses or something…fundamentals of personal finance bear no resemblance whatsoever to those of nations, particularly nations that are the top of the world economic order.
Attempting to impose those “fundamentals” you keep spouting, on the USA is a recipe for disaster…see 1929 as an example.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 5th, 2013
12:06 pm
Let Rove tell you folks what to think? That’s kind par for the course, isn’t it?
md
February 5th, 2013
12:24 pm
“@md…you just don’t get it…maybe you should try some online Econ 101 courses or something…fundamentals of personal finance bear no resemblance whatsoever to those of nations, particularly nations that are the top of the world economic order.”
I get it just fine, it seems to be you that can’t see it…….just because a country has a few extra gimmicks at it’s disposal does not mean it is not susceptible to going over the edge…..and yes, 1929 is a good example of folks thinking it can’t happen.
You need to learn the difference between “fundamentals” and “gimmicks”………printing extra money is a gimmick, NOT a fundamental.
Fundamental……catch ball and throw it…….with gimmick, catch ball, throw it back between legs…..odds are the second method has much more risk……..as does printing money.
md
February 5th, 2013
12:25 pm
“Duhbya inherited a balanced budget, a country at peace and a reasonably sound financial system then trashed the budget, slept through the threats and breached his oversight responsibilities.”
And a financial system on the verge of crisis…….might be why he warned of problems especially with Fannie and Freddie as far back as 2001 in his very first budget……it wasn’t all Bush, that’s just choosing to not look at all the specifics………
snoqualmiefalls
February 5th, 2013
12:34 pm
GOP doing poorly?
Why clutch my pearls!
When grandpa McCain forced on the American people and the GOP a half term, half wit Governor from Alaska, following up with Mittens, or Cain or Bachman or Vitter what was the GOP thinking?
And now worrying about the national GOP getting into Georgia senate race? Why more of the same insanity that brought you the aforementioned crazies? Bring it on guys, we all love to be entertained. I just love Georgia politics.
getalife
February 5th, 2013
12:45 pm
The gop civil war of the gop establishment vs you cons is raging.
Divided and conquered so it is time for President Obama to finish off that worthless failed party.
These are great blogging times.
getalife
February 5th, 2013
12:47 pm
md,
The buck stops with w.
It was the bush collapse.
Own it.
getalife
February 5th, 2013
12:50 pm
fox fired palin but rehired rove so fox will help the gop establishment instead of you cons.
captguitarman
February 5th, 2013
12:50 pm
If they don’t get involved, Georgia Pub/Cons could very well pick a Tea Party / Libertarian candidate and end up losing the seat. Yes, many will feel that could never happen in Georgia, but in politics, things can change, and these days they can change very quickly. See 2010 elections vs. 2012 elections. If Richard Lugar could lose his seat in Indiana to a Tea Party candidate, who then lost to the Dem/Lib candidate, it could happen here. Hopefully, the Pub/Cons will begin working in earnest to ensure that a winning candidate is nominated to run for Chambliss’ seat, and not another Tea Party expert on rape.
skipper
February 5th, 2013
12:54 pm
captguitarman,
Zealotry is at the root of much of the problems now. To be a dem, you gotta lean so far left and to be a repub you gotta lean so far right that regular “walkin’ around sense” has to a large degree been abondoned. I’m not saying be a fence-walker or not have principles, but I am saying that being dogmatic and totally brainwashed into only hard-line thinking 9on either side) is damn sure not helping anything right now.
skipper
February 5th, 2013
12:55 pm
(the “9″ is supposed to be the first in the set of parenthesis. Typing too fast!)
md
February 5th, 2013
12:55 pm
“I think that the responsibility that the Democrats had may rest more in resisting any efforts by Republicans in the Congress, or by me when I was President, to put some standards and tighten up a little on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.” – President Bill Clinton (D-AR), September 25, 2008
md
February 5th, 2013
12:56 pm
“Like a lot of my Democratic colleagues I was too slow to appreciate the recklessness of Fannie and Freddie. I defended their efforts to encourage affordable homeownership when in retrospect I should have heeded the concerns raised by their regulator in 2004. Frankly, I wish my Democratic colleagues would admit when it comes to Fannie and Freddie, we were wrong.” – Congressman Artur Davis (D-AL) , September 30, 2008
md
February 5th, 2013
12:57 pm
I prefer truth get……truth….and facts.
md
February 5th, 2013
12:59 pm
“Except, of course, in the full interview with Chris Cuomo, the former president distributes blame a little more evenly — and, interestingly, even references the pointlessness of trying assign blame for the crisis at this particular point in time. When asked if Democrats were “playing politics” with the issue, Clinton said “well, maybe everybody does that a little bit.”"
All Bush huh? Evidently Clinton has a bit more sense than some of you here………..
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
February 5th, 2013
1:05 pm
Fellow Conservatives:
Karl Rove and his allies took to the New York Times over the weekend to announce their new fundraising group designed for the express purpose of defeating conservatives in Republican primary elections all over the country. These are the same people who brought us No Child Left Behind, Medicare Part D, the Wall Street bailout, pork-barrel earmarks, and debt as far as the eye can see.
The comically-named “Conservative Victory Project” is run by Steven Law, head of American Crossroads and former Chief of Staff to U.S. Senator Mitch McConnell (R-KY). It’s yet another example of the Republican establishment’s hostility toward its conservative base.
…Pollster Scott Rasmussen recently rebuked party bosses for these heavy handed tactics in a nationally-syndicated column. Rasmussen said, “The Republican establishment has two choices. They can act as mature party leaders of a national political party, or they can protect their own self-interest. Mature party leaders would spend a lot more time listening to Republican voters rather than further insulating themselves from those voters.”
Senate Conservative Fund letter received this AM. They make some good points, moderates are perennial losers in national elections, but we all know that the Mourdocks, Angles, and the witch type candidates lose as well. Seems we need people who are conservative fiscally and not on the extreme of the social conservative spectrum. Hard needle to thread.
md
February 5th, 2013
1:05 pm
2003……5 full years before the collapse…..and who blocked it at every turn? All the dems and even some republicans:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/11/business/new-agency-proposed-to-oversee-freddie-mac-and-fannie-mae.html
And that is from the bastion of liberal thought the NYT.
You blame it all on Bush folks sure don’t like to come out of the closet and into the light do you??
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
February 5th, 2013
1:10 pm
The establishment still can’t admit they’re responsible for losing races up and down the ticket in 2012 because of their support for moderate candidates. They’ve created this new super PAC to trick people into giving them more money so they can lose more races.
As you may remember, in 2012, there were 27 Republican Senate challengers yet only three were elected. All three winners were SCF-backed, anti-establishment conservatives. The other 24 Republican challengers were defeated. A few of these candidates were conservatives, but most of the losers were moderates. All told, the Republican establishment has cost the party at least 10 Senate seats in the past two elections.
Not sure about the accuracy, since who represented which group and who fits in with which group is subject to being manipulated, but it gives reason to believe that the establishment is no more able to pick successful candidates than the SCF.
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
February 5th, 2013
1:11 pm
The above post is from the same SCF letter.
md
February 5th, 2013
1:13 pm
I’ll re-post this one just for you get….you are welcome:
” Frankly, I wish my Democratic colleagues would admit when it comes to Fannie and Freddie, we were wrong.”
md
February 5th, 2013
1:15 pm
Now where did JDW run off to? Tell us again how it was all Bush’s fault…….
indigo
February 5th, 2013
1:16 pm
md – “I prefer truths and facts”
From who? You’re fundamentalist pastor?
If so, what you’re getting is anything but “truth and facts”
independent thinker
February 5th, 2013
1:19 pm
Stupid party in Georgia will elect the most ethically and intellectually challenged candidate they can find. Then they will gear their campaign towards people like some of the regulars on this blog who are intellectually challenged and believe calling the President Obozo and Kenyan marxist etc. is meaningful political discourse. Those are Rove and Limbaugh’s target audiences.That why the cons went down to defeat the last two presidential elections. Stupid party continues to make ignorant white southerners and bible thumpers and bigots their base.
md
February 5th, 2013
1:22 pm
I just posted the links and quotes indigo…..do yourself a favor and read them and THEN go do some research on your own……….unless you are one of those that prefer to just remain clueless and parrot the “it’s all Bush’s fault” mantra…….
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
February 5th, 2013
1:24 pm
Stupid party continues to make ignorant white southerners and bible thumpers and bigots their base.
The other party has abandoned efforts to appeal to that 65% of America, and prefers to use those people as bad examples in an effort to stoke their base, through class warfare and envy. Working great for them so far, but time will tell.
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
February 5th, 2013
1:27 pm
md
Indigo is one of those who will never recognize that you won the argument. He always falls back on the routine liberal argument, that my facts are truer than your facts, or that I don’t trust your source.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
February 5th, 2013
1:31 pm
Speaking of a divided party, how’s that gun grab legislation of y’alls going?
Did you get slapped down, again?
Dusty
February 5th, 2013
1:32 pm
What? No Kyle! I think he’s down at the Gold Dome living it up!
————————–
HILLBILLY, that roooster idea is good. Would you run over to your neighbors and get us a nice little fellow? A perky one with loud early morning crowing ability? I’m sure Kyle would love a new pet.
————————–
Anyway, MD, keep giving some folks here the straight information. I do believe they only read the comics. After ObamaCare maybe we will get ReadaCareStimulus and WriteaCareStim for the (Dem)masses. There is a need as definitely shown on this prestigious blog!!
Later, much later……
indigo
February 5th, 2013
1:40 pm
Rafe – “will never recognize that you won the argument”
That’s because you never do.
breckenridge
February 5th, 2013
1:44 pm
Consider for a moment what happened in Indiana last year. The Tea Party decided Dick Lugar, who had held his US Senate seat for 6 terms, had to go. And so they came up with Richard Mourdock as their golden child to do away with Lugar.
Enter the national Democratic party into the fray, throwing money and support behind Mourdock in the GOP primary. Why? Because they knew Mourdock was a whack-job and they had a legitimate chance of beating him in November. Lo and behold, they were right, and the Republicans ended up frittering away a Senate seat they’d held for 80+ years.
Paul Broun would be exactly the same sort of candidate Mourdock was. If Broun does decide to run I want Rove and his PAC do come into Georgia and fund a rational, reasonable candidate. Because Broun certainly is not either of those things.
md
February 5th, 2013
1:48 pm
“He always falls back on the routine liberal argument, that my facts are truer than your facts, or that I don’t trust your source.”
Which is why I used quotes from liberal individuals and liberal sources, then if he doesn’t like it he can go about discrediting his “side”………
mike
February 5th, 2013
1:56 pm
It looks as if the repubs are on a good start to repeat losing of the next election. It is going to be interesting to see all the infighting. And lets see how convincing they will be when flipping on all those women right issues, immigration etc. while trying to keep a straight face.
md
February 5th, 2013
2:01 pm
The next election will depend a bit on the next quarters numbers…..two consecutive negative quarters are by definition a recession…….and then we’ll see which spin machine cranks out the most stuff….but normally, recessions don’t look too good on resumes…..
JDW
February 5th, 2013
2:01 pm
@md…”I prefer truth get……truth….and facts.”
Then maybe…youe…should…pay…attention…to the truth rather than ill advised comments made before the facts were known.
“All this can be seen in the share of total residential mortgage debt insured or owned by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. At the start of 2002, before the housing boom got going, the two agencies’ market share accounted for almost 54 percent of all mortgage debt. By summer 2006, the bubble’s apex, their share had fallen to only 40 percent. It is difficult to see how the agencies could have been responsible for inflating the housing bubble at a time when they were losing a full 14 percentage points of market share. Indeed, the opposite was true, as their position in the housing market rapidly diminished.”
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-01-24/news/35438120_1_mortgage-loans-total-residential-mortgage-debt-subprime-and-alt-a
Securitization and the Bush Adminstration’s hands off approach to regulations were far more to blame.
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
February 5th, 2013
2:04 pm
breckenridge
Don’t know much about Mourdock, other than he made some stupid statements, which Joe Biden and Obama do on a daily basis, but Lugar needed to go. He had given up living in Indiana, and immersed himself in the Washington elite culture. He was just about as likely to vote with the Dems as he was with the GOP. Yes, there were times the GOP could have used his vote, but there were just as many times he deserted his party. Their new senator will be a one termer as Indiana is a conservative state and they will rectify their error.
JDW
February 5th, 2013
2:09 pm
“In 2008, as the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression erupted on the eve of a presidential election, a few contrarians sought to convince the public that the accepted narrative about the crisis — that it was primarily the result of greed on Wall Street and lax oversight in Washington — was wrong.
Instead, they argued, it could be pinned on a combination of mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and misguided housing policies.
The argument never gained much traction at the time. And, after an exhaustive 15-month inquiry, a commission chosen to find causes of the crisis cited a raft of factors, including “dramatic breakdowns of corporate governance, profound lapses in regulatory oversight, and near fatal flaws in our financial system.”
But now (thanks to the md’s of the world) the alternative narrative is back.”
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/story/2011-11-23/housing-bust-Fannie-Freddie/51387110/1
JDW
February 5th, 2013
2:12 pm
“There’s a dangerous — and misleading — argument making the rounds about the causes of our current credit crisis. It’s emanating from Washington where politicians are engaging in the usual blame game but this time the stakes are so high that we can’t afford to fall victim to political doublespeak. In this fact-free zone, government sponsored mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac caused the real estate bubble and subprime meltdown. It’s completely false. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were victims of the credit crisis, not culprits.
Start with the most basic fact of all: virtually none of the $1.5 trillion of cratering subprime mortgages were backed by Fannie or Freddie”
http://www.businessweek.com/investing/insights/blog/archives/2008/09/fannie_mae_and.html
Hummm md, just how can Fannie and Freddie be responsible for a subprime mortgage crisis when…they….owned…almost….none…of…them?
md
February 5th, 2013
2:12 pm
Ummm JDW, the 2 of them are STILL in receivership, a status reserved for companies in big trouble. Whether you admit it or not does not change the fact that they contributed to the overall problem.
Not to mention the SEC Charges:
http://www.sec.gov/news/press/2011/2011-267.htm
Common sense dictates that if nothing wrong was going on then why would charges need to be filed?
And tell us JDW, if they weren’t part of the problem, why would Clinton and Davis admit that they were??
md
February 5th, 2013
2:15 pm
“”Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac executives told the world that their subprime exposure was substantially smaller than it really was,” said Robert Khuzami, Director of the SEC’s Enforcement Division.”
Seems the SEC (and the Obama administration by default) seems to think you are incorrect JDW….
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
February 5th, 2013
2:19 pm
Be nice to see the Cons lose one of their Senate seats because they can’t get their shtuff together.
JDW
February 5th, 2013
2:25 pm
@md…”Seems the SEC (and the Obama administration by default) seems to think you are incorrect JDW….”
Uhhh…not really…the complaint states that the executives stated that thier exposure was $4.8 billion when in fact…
“Unbeknown to investors, as of December 31, 2006, Freddie Mac’s Single Family business was exposed to approximately $141 billion of loans internally referred to as “subprime” or “subprime like,”
Yep they lied or really didn’t know…doesn’t change the fact that they owned less than 10% of said loans.
JDW
February 5th, 2013
2:27 pm
@md…”they contributed to the overall problem.”
Yep…my scorecard reads…
Fannie/Freddit…10%
Dems in Congress…10%
Private Mortgage industry…40%
Duhbya…40%
getalife
February 5th, 2013
2:33 pm
The gop establishment declared war with you cons.
Your move cons.
What are you going to do to fight back?
Nothing.
You are marginalized.
JDW
February 5th, 2013
2:35 pm
@md…there were at least 16 private companies that owned more in subprime debt than Fannie and Freddie combined…
1. Countrywide Home Loans Servicing LP, Simi Valley, California — $5.2 billion
2. J.P. Morgan Chase Bank NA, Lewisville, Texas — $2.7 billion
3. Wells Fargo Bank NA, Des Moines, Iowa — $2.4 billion
4. American Home Mortgage Servicing Inc., Coppell, Texas — $1.3 billion
5. CitiMortgage Inc., O’Fallon, Missouri — $1.1 billion
6. GMAC Mortgage Inc., Ft. Washington, Pennsylvania — $1 billion
7. Bank of America, NA, Charlotte, North Carolina — $804.4 million
8. Litton Loan Servicing LP, Houston, Texas — $774.9 million
9. EMC Mortgage Corp., Lewisville, Texas — $707.4 million
10. HomEq Servicing, North Highlands, California — $674 million
11. Select Portfolio Servicing, Salt Lake City, Utah — $660.6 million
12. Saxon Mortgage Services Inc., Irving, Texas — $632 million
13. Ocwen Financial Corp. Inc., West Palm Beach, Florida — $553.4 million
14. Aurora Loan Services LLC, Littleton, Colorado — $459.6 million
15. Wilshire Credit Corp. Beaverton, Oregon — $453.1 million
16. Home Loan Services Inc.— $447,300,000
But do carry on with your fiction.
JDW
February 5th, 2013
2:38 pm
@md…sorry that is the list of federal monies the companies received for mortgage adjustments not thier total holdings…which drove the list of those that owned more.
TBone
February 5th, 2013
2:38 pm
Let’s just say that the national repubs have done such a bang up job picking the repub presidential candidate the past couple of cycles that if they (national repubs) pick the georgia repub nominee it will most likely go down in flames.
JDW
February 5th, 2013
2:40 pm
Here is the link to how much in loans they owned….
http://www.publicintegrity.org/2009/05/06/5554/subprime-25
Kyle Wingfield
February 5th, 2013
2:42 pm
JDW @ 2:35: The idea that Fan and Fred’s only role in the housing crash related to the loans they held directly would be laughable if it weren’t so terrible.
Kyle Wingfield
February 5th, 2013
2:42 pm
Btw, there’s a new post upstairs.
JDW
February 5th, 2013
2:51 pm
@Kyle…”The idea that Fan and Fred’s only role in the housing crash related to the loans they held directly would be laughable if it weren’t so terrible.”
So what other role do you think they played…before you give me the hurah about pushing loans on unqualified low income people you might want to recall that of the top 25 subprime lenders in 2006 only 1 was even subject to that regulation. You might also want to recall that we had a commisson on this and while they did mention that Fannie and Freddy were highly leveraged they declined to name them as a cause.
They did however mention…
“The Commission also probed the performance of the loans purchased or guaranteed
by Fannie and Freddie. While they generated substantial losses, delinquency
rates for GSE loans were substantially lower than loans securitized by other financial
firms. For example, data compiled by the Commission for a subset of borrowers with
similar credit scores—scores below —show that by the end of , GSE mortgages
were far less likely to be seriously delinquent than were non-GSE securitized
mortgages: . versus ..”
Number 1 on the reason hit parade…
“We conclude widespread failures in financial regulation and supervision
proved devastating to the stability of the nation’s financial markets.”
Kyle Wingfield
February 5th, 2013
3:06 pm
JDW @ 2:51: Let’s see: Fannie spent more than $100M on lobbying and giving campaign contributions to members of Congress to, among other things, make sure lending standards for the entire industry were constantly loosened. It negotiated lower fees for Countrywide (a solid first on the list at your link) to encourage more subprime lending. Its implicit taxpayer backing played a huge role in the higher-than-justifiable ratings given to its debt — including by S&P, target of a new DOJ lawsuit — and probably in the too-high ratings given to other securities backed by subprime mortgages.
And I hope I don’t have to point out that Fan and Fred sold many of the loans they bought from private banks — which means the number of loans they were stuck holding when the bottom fell out has absolutely no relation to their role in creating the crisis. But I’ll go ahead and point that out, anyway.
JDW
February 5th, 2013
3:22 pm
@Kyle…yep they lobbied…right along with the rest of business and the mortgage industry in particular. They also worked with partners. As for selling…yep…some though they mostly buy its all they do since they can’t originate.
They were a player…point is they were an minor player in a subprime industry that was unsupervised and allowed to run amuck. As the Commission stated…
“We conclude that these two entities contributed to the crisis, but were not a primary
cause. Importantly, GSE mortgage securities essentially maintained their value
throughout the crisis and did not contribute to the significant financial firm losses
that were central to the financial crisis.”
The root problem was the failure of the Bush Adminstration to supervise and regulate the market…simple as that.
Kyle Wingfield
February 5th, 2013
3:31 pm
JDW @ 3:22: A simplistic answer for a simplistic view of the world.
JDW
February 5th, 2013
3:38 pm
@Kyle…no not really…just looking at the facts and putting “gubment” is bad bias aside. This conversation started with md, who wants to think that Fannie and Freddy were the root cause…they were not and surely you understand that point.
JDW
February 5th, 2013
3:40 pm
As for what I expect you feel the simple part is…my assignment of blame to Duhbya…I only hold him 40% culpable…but he was the only player that could have reasonably prevented the meltdown and of course was the one that should have.
Kyle Wingfield
February 5th, 2013
3:54 pm
JDW @ 3:38: As the problem started long before Bush became president, I’d say they’re a whole lot closer to the root than he is. (Btw, who is supposed to be the key regulator of Wall Street banks? The president of the NY Fed. I’ll give you one guess who that was in the years leading up to the housing crash. Here’s a hint: It’s the guy widely tipped to be Obama’s choice to head the entire Fed when Bernanke retires.)
The housing crash is the result of the nexus of Big Government AND Big Business, specifically Big Finance. The private sector made mistakes, no doubt, and you won’t find me trying to absolve them of bearing a large part of the blame. But the public sector enabled almost every one of those mistakes, via loose monetary policy, encouraging lax lending standards, establishing an oligopoly of ratings agencies (and then requiring banks to purchase their ratings) and, yes, allowing the GSEs to trade on the full faith and credit of the federal government — among various other actions over the course of 30-odd years. The point is that government and the private sector were fully entwined and fed off each other in the years leading up to the crash.
What’s simplistic is to pretend instead that what happened can fit into neat little categories.
md
February 5th, 2013
4:31 pm
“Yep…my scorecard reads…
Fannie/Freddit…10%
Dems in Congress…10%
Private Mortgage industry…40%
Duhbya…40%”
Yep, I think we can all see where you are coming from…..not a single percentage devoted to individuals. Typical blame everyone BUT the ones that bought more than they knew they could afford……
You are aware that there could be no such thing as a bad derivative without there first being INDIVIDUALS defaulting on their obligations…..aren’t you?
JDW
February 5th, 2013
4:49 pm
@md…”individuals”
Take a glass and fill it with rocks and then pour water in. Just like individuals find the holes in any system, It runs to the bottom and you can’t stop it. The government, in particular the Bush Adminstration was responsible for keeping the water from the bottom of the glass.
JDW
February 5th, 2013
4:59 pm
@Kyle, the crisis did not start before Bush. Some of the enablers may have been put into place but the loose monetary policy coupled with failure of oversight belongs to Bush.
As for regulation…now who is simplistic…there were 8 agencies responsible for regulating the mortgage industry all rolling to the Treasury headed by O’Neil, who was fired in typical Bushie fashion for disagreeing, then Snow, then Paulson. All followed the Bush doctrine of limiting regulations and “freeing” business.
Once a mortgage is packaged and sold it becomes the domain of the SEC…you know the guys who couldn’t catch Madoff in spite of warnings out the wazzooo….see 60 Minutes and Harry Markopoulos.
JDW
February 5th, 2013
5:01 pm
O’ and Kyle…the purpose of Root Cause analysis is to ignore all the noise and find the root cause. There is always one and in this case all lines lead to Duhbya.
Kyle Wingfield
February 5th, 2013
5:07 pm
JDW @ 4:49: “It runs to the bottom and you can’t stop it. The government, in particular the Bush Adminstration was responsible for keeping the water from the bottom of the glass.”
So you fault the Bush administration for not doing something that, in the sentence before, you admitted can’t be done?
Kyle Wingfield
February 5th, 2013
5:08 pm
JDW @ 5:01: “There is always one…”
Like I said, simplistic.
JDW
February 5th, 2013
5:17 pm
@Kyle…”So you fault the Bush administration for not doing something that, in the sentence before, you admitted can’t be done?”
I didn’t say it couldn’t be done…just not with rocks…
JDW
February 5th, 2013
5:19 pm
@Kyle…”Like I said, simplistic.”
Maybe, but I am an Occam’s Razor sort of guy and frankly it works quite well.
Kyle Wingfield
February 5th, 2013
5:22 pm
You’re misusing Occam’s Razor. The simplest answer does not hold up in the face of evidence to the contrary.
JDW
February 5th, 2013
7:28 pm
@kyle…you have presented no evidence to the contrary…on the other hand I have…see 2:51 and 3:22 for the judgement of those entrusted to do so.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
February 5th, 2013
10:10 pm
Just Saying: smaller deficits, rang up less debt, employed more people, had fewer on welfare, and maintained a higher credit rating…Uh, Barry….if your Party actually has all these attributes, why are you not the one in power?
———————-
Parasite Obozo receptacles (oops, triple redundancy) aren’t interested in results–they’re interested in checks.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
February 5th, 2013
10:14 pm
LBB..”Debt as a percentage of GDP is rising under Obozo.”
JDW: Not intended to be a factual statement…which is good since it is a lie.
—————————-
You might try reading the post…I said “debt”. And I was absolutely correct.
JDW: Liar.
Broun wastes no time in Georgia Senate race | Kyle Wingfield
February 8th, 2013
11:23 am
[...] It’s a theme that will resonate with a lot of Georgia voters, mind you. But will it be enough of one to move many members of even the state GOP’s very conservative base beyond his past controversial statements? [...]