Medicaid bed tax: Misnamed, unsustainable, divisive — and apparently irresistible
For an up-close view of the brokenness in our political and health-care systems, and especially of the way they make one another worse rather than better, you could hardly do better than watch the debate over Georgia’s hospital bed tax. It has it all.
First, there’s Medicaid. It’s the program states can’t live with — no matter how much money they pour into it one year, the cost only rises the next, in part because states have limited control over it — and can’t live without — the federal dollars involved are too numerous to pass up.
Medicaid funding is an inherent contradiction in fiscal responsibility: In order to balance their budgets, states look for ever more ways to get ever more money from a federal government that is ever more in debt. Meanwhile, even as Medicaid funding rises, Medicaid patients have ever more trouble finding doctors who will accept them because of the program’s low reimbursement rates.
So, Medicaid is so broken as to somehow render politicians incapable of anything but pouring more money into it. Which, I suppose, means it meets the threshold for being a true government program.
There’s the tax itself. Politicians like to call it a “hospital provider fee,” even though a “fee” is something the state charges for a service it provides. The only service provided here is the state’s role in asking the feds to dole out another half-billion dollars a year in matching funds, roughly $2 for every $1 raised by the tax, er, “fee.”
Those matching funds flow back to the very same hospitals that pay the tax. That makes it more akin to an extremely high-return investment, the kind of consistently high return one normally associates with an investment scam. (Given how unsustainable this entire arrangement is, that sounds about right.) It’s as if the hospitals are charging U.S. taxpayers a usurious interest rate for the pleasure of holding their money awhile. And yet, despite all this, the hospitals still end up losing money on many Medicaid patients.
Then there’s the way in which Georgia legislators have approached the tax this year compared to its initial approval in 2010. Three years ago, the tax was the source of much drama toward the end of the session. And while I’m hard-pressed to name a legislator who lost re-election after voting for the tax in 2010, the impact on the Senate wound up being truly historic.
Passing the tax involved a great deal of arm-twisting, including the loss of committee chairmanships for some senators who opposed the tax. The bullying was one of the reasons GOP senators cited the most after the 2010 elections when they staged a coup against their fellow Republican, Lt. Gov. Casey Cagle, and opted for governance by consensus within their caucus. That schism shaped the past two sessions, with fallout that continues today: Disaffection with leadership of the Senate by the Senate led to wholesale changes for this year’s session.
Having learned their lesson, GOP leaders don’t want to force legislators to walk that plank again. So they’re asking them to let someone else walk the plank.
This year’s bed-tax bill would delegate authority for levying the bed tax to the nine-member board of the Department of Community Health. It would be four years — that’s two legislative cycles and one gubernatorial race from now — before lawmakers had to act on the tax again.
Finally, there’s the near-certainty that, after jumping through hoops to renew this tax without being seen renewing it, Georgia Republicans will campaign during the next electoral cycle on the notions of cutting spending and refusing to raise taxes. They’ll probably add a few barbs about federal spending for good measure.
And, if history is our guide, almost all of them will be re-elected two Novembers from now — right about the same time Georgians of various loyalties will begin demanding their favorite football teams replace this coach or that one because he’s made a mess of his team and can’t seem to fix it.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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97 comments Add your comment
Aynie Sue
January 17th, 2013
5:34 am
Thanks, Kyle, for focusing attention on the bed tax political scam.
But don’t single out Medicaid as the victim of unsustainable spending on health care; Medicare and all public and private health insurance programs are victims of the unsustainable cost of American health care. The solution is to take measures to reduce waste in health care practices and extend coverage, not to cut health care insurance programs and increase the out-of-pocket expenses to individuals.
Joint federal/state programs, like Medicaid, are a bad idea. Why sustain 51 bureaucracies and expand the opportunity for pilfering by thousands more politicians? Let states run the programs that require means testing, and the federal government run the others.
a
January 17th, 2013
7:17 am
The Republicans are determined to eat their own.
middle of the road
January 17th, 2013
7:36 am
So the “powers that be” are against raising regular income tax rates to supply more money to Medicaid, but have no problem taxing all those who use hospital services to pay for Medicaid services for the poor? So the person who is healthy and doesn’t go to the hospital doesn’t need to help out with health care for the poor? Just like opposing Obamacare’s requirements that everyone exibit personal responsibility and possess health insurance that they will INEVITABLY need one day, but requiring hospitals and doctors to charge ALL OF US and indirect tax to subsidize those who refuse to get insurnace (a good number of which can easily afford it). Free riders get the advantages of our current system (hopefully not for too much longer).
Kyle Wingfield
January 17th, 2013
7:40 am
Immediate commenting is back on.
Bob Loblaw
January 17th, 2013
7:49 am
I just don’t get the “unsustainable” part.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
January 17th, 2013
8:02 am
This tax is like the same thing Ken Lay of Enron went to jail for, isn’t it?
Anyway, how many more pyramid schemes lie in waiting for our future generations because of government intervention in health care and which one of them will be left holding the bag?
Bob Loblaw
January 17th, 2013
8:08 am
@Aesop:
What if you wanted health insurance and applied to over 10 companies for an individual policy and all ten turned you down because you had a pre-existing condition? I’m talking about a true failure of the free market to provide a product that you want to buy. Would you believe that government should, either by policy or by offering coverage, intervene? Or, should the willing buyer who can’t find the willing seller “go bare”?
Georgia , The "New Mississippi"
January 17th, 2013
8:14 am
Great article Kyle,……………you are finally stating what the rest of the nation already knows. Georgia GOP Johnny Reb legislators are the biggest problem our state must overcome. They have very low morals and are noted for being the most corrupt politicians in our nation. There is NO WAY Georgia can avoid being the undisputed laughingstock of our nation.
Bob Loblaw
January 17th, 2013
8:32 am
@Aesop:
When you are rejected for health insurance by as few as one private insurer for a pre-existing condition, then you are able, as you suggested, to “bring proof of his rejection for insurance to a government agency set up to specifically provide for such instances” under, yep, Obamacare.
Not an extreme scenario nor dreamed up. Just a real-life example of a person who busted their tail to get an insurer to take them only to be unable to find coverage in a free market. Disappointing in all candor that not one private plan would provide coverage. But it is a good thing to see that you agree with Obamacare’s pre-existing insurance policy for those failed by the free market.
Cutty
January 17th, 2013
8:43 am
Where are all the cries of Socialism? Are Deal and the GA Legislature Commies like Obama? Charging a tax to the insured to help pay for Medicaid; Georgia’s version of Obamacare.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
January 17th, 2013
8:43 am
Bob – Is that ALL that obozocare does?
How could someone miss such an obvious point?
Bob Loblaw
January 17th, 2013
8:55 am
@Aesop:
I’m unsure what point your referencing? Was it the dreamed-up daddy rape? (which, btw, was disgusting and totally unrelated to the subject)
Jefferson
January 17th, 2013
9:10 am
People who were born with a silver spoon never understand completely the lives of the working poor, but they have lots to say about it.
fair and balanced
January 17th, 2013
9:13 am
Socialism in health care is totally appropriate when passed by Republicans to cure the needs for emergency treatment of the uninsured – Reagan-EMTALA (unfunded mandate); Romney-Romneycare (over 8 billion of Medicaid waivers sucked out of citizens of other states through the feds); Deal -bed tax (tax on those who have insurance and can pay to cover Medicaid shortage caused by the poor) . But god forbid a commie liberal passes a law requiring individual responsibility for payment-that is real socialism.
The Ghost of Lester Maddox
January 17th, 2013
9:25 am
Kyle -
You’d better watch out – if you keep writing stories like this one that are: (1) informative; (2) non-partisan; (3) educational; and, (4) thought provoking……the powers that be at the AJC won’t know what to do with you….
…..it’s amazing that the editorial gurus at the AJC allowed you to clear this one without forcing you to insert any wording or any mention of how everything is Bush’s fault, how native Georgians are backward and uninformed, how Obama will solve all things, how anyone who disagrees with Obama is racist, etc. etc.
BW
January 17th, 2013
9:27 am
Sounds about right….shift the responsibility and claim small government bonafides on the campaign trail. Medicaid needs to be reformed drastically….block grants it could be argued are a form of death panels by some in opposition to that but that really is the nature of sustainable entitlement programs….deciding the level of care that will be administered to the patient before a cap hits…the only question is who gets to decide what that is?
md
January 17th, 2013
9:45 am
“Just like opposing Obamacare’s requirements that everyone exibit personal responsibility and possess health insurance that they will INEVITABLY need one day, but requiring hospitals and doctors to charge ALL OF US and indirect tax to subsidize those who refuse to get insurnace (a good number of which can easily afford it).”
Except Obamacare doesn’t. It requires personal responsibility only for those that can afford it with no regard for why they can’t afford it, at that point those that actually did make the better choices in life get the added bonus of paying for others.
md
January 17th, 2013
9:49 am
“People who were born with a silver spoon never understand completely the lives of the working poor, but they have lots to say about it.”
And there are many among the “working poor” that make the choices to remain that way and also have plenty to say about it. There is a certain regular poster over at that other place that commented frequently about how she turned down promotion after promotion because she was “comfortable” with her meager lifestyle yet always had plenty to say on why others should pay more for the “poor”.
Choices folks………….
md
January 17th, 2013
9:52 am
Pre-existing conditions could have been an easy fix under our old system had the silly “group” designations been adjusted, that would have been all that was necessary. But some buffoons decided that a bunch of people working for an employer was a “group” while a bunch of people self employed wasn’t a group.
Sometimes common sense needs to prevail……..
Michael
January 17th, 2013
9:59 am
Instead of a bed tax, lets tax guns and ammo to fund mediciad and that will help Hospitals deal with the problem of uninsured patients and allow them to keep their doors open.
Dusty
January 17th, 2013
10:08 am
I can see that Kyle is angry over this whole Medicaid mess. No wonder. It’s like the Gordian knot. Nobdy can untie it.
I think the Feds shold step out of the picture and leave it to the states. When the states can’t handle their own sick, then they will economize or do what is necessary. If state representatives can only think of their personal political status in this, they need to go.
Medicaid is growing every year. If we take penalties off of hospitals, doctors and the healthcare system,and let them manage healthcare, we would get better results and better care.
Get the government out of medicine! .Get insurance out of medicine. We have too many people running what is not their line of work. That is why we now have this silly bed-tax fiasco. Too many self-important profit seekingt people who could care less about the sick. Time for professionals to take over.
Jefferson
January 17th, 2013
10:19 am
md — your comment has nothing to do with mine at all, you just want a soapbox.
Dusty
January 17th, 2013
10:26 am
I don’t think that the “working poor” are what is clogging Medicaid. I think it is the NON working poor and possiblhy the unemployed who are filling those ranks.
If you offer something “free” , a lot of people will come all with “valid” reasons to be included. I think strict requiremnets should be a first step. Check closer on the applicants of Medicaid to be sure they are truly needy and not just skipping the payments for their own needs.
It is human nature to want something free but it is not fair when others are paying for your care when you should be responsible. A lot of people have conveniently forgotten that. .That is one reason our Emergency Rooms are crowded. .
UIC
January 17th, 2013
10:33 am
So your argument is not that our health care costs per person are nearly double most of Western Europe, yet our our life expectancy is lower than every country in Western Europe. You think it may have something to do with the fact that our obesity rates are between 30% and 300% higher than Europe? Hey, the heck with the fact that we were drunk when we got in the car and wrecked it….can you believe how much it cost to get it fixed??
Logical Dude
January 17th, 2013
10:35 am
Kyle,
Very good read on the difficulty in funding and the politics involved. I don’t know all the answers to fully fund our obligations to healthcare, but the solution sure shouldn’t involve bullying and / or favors.
It just seems like nothing in this state can be done without someone being steamrolled, or someone getting overly compensated (read: corruption).
Dusty
January 17th, 2013
10:40 am
md
I applaud your stand for personal responsibility. It seems that many here expect “thje government” to pay their bills. I’m afraid it is true for many, seeing how Obama won a second term with great promises for perceived “free” medical care. His election certainly could not be for a successful first term considering the fiscal state of the USA.
Anyway, keep up the good work.
Hillbilly D
January 17th, 2013
10:40 am
We can argue about this all we want but the real problem is rising health care costs. As long as the costs keep going up, which they will for the foreseeable future, this problem is going to be with us.
Dusty
January 17th, 2013
10:54 am
UIC 10:33
What? Kyle said not one word about Wastern Europe, obesity or anything else you brought up.
Wherefore goeth thou?
Jose
January 17th, 2013
11:04 am
Legalize marijuana and half of the bed ridden zombies that are now strung out on big pharma opiates will be able to get up, walk around, and possibly return to a normal life.
Dusty
January 17th, 2013
11:07 am
Hillbilly,
The costs of heathcare certainly keep going up. The more the demands the more the cost. Demands come from government regulations, , insurance(liability) and the cost of even better medical care and medication. .
There is nothing cheap in the way of medical equipment, sanitary precautions and professional education. To minimize any of those gives poor medical care.
Not to say, there are no ways to get a better system.
By the way , Hillbilly, I hope you don’t have snow and ice tonight. Surely is gray in Atlanta.
.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
January 17th, 2013
11:08 am
Just like opposing Obamacare’s requirements that everyone exibit personal responsibility and possess health insurance
———-
Demanding that your neighbors pay for your health insurance is the exact opposite of personal responsibility.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
January 17th, 2013
11:09 am
When does Obozocare start “bending the cost curve down” as promised?
Jose
January 17th, 2013
11:15 am
Taxpayers should not be subsidizing bunk drugs with countless side effects sending people to the emergency room. Legalize marijuana and save a boat load of Medicaid money.
Jose
January 17th, 2013
11:18 am
Most of the high cost drugs have side effects that are treated with other drugs. It is a vicious cycle. Legalize something that is safer than asprin and tell the feds where to go with their gun and drug laws.
MarkV
January 17th, 2013
11:28 am
Dusty is in a rare form today.
“Get insurance out of medicine.” (@10:08 am)
No insurance, pay for the treatment you need. And if it is one of the many high cost treatments even people with a good income cannot afford, you have two choices: To die, or to let other people pay for it.
“I don’t think that the “working poor” are what is clogging Medicaid. I think it is the NON working poor and possiblhy the unemployed who are filling those ranks.”(@ 10:26 am)
Naturally, Dusty has the right to “think” whatever she prefers, whether it is true or not. But more importantly, it is the mindset that is so telling. What does Dusty want to do with the NON working poor and (possibly) unemployed, when they get sick. Again, let them die?
“Obama won a second term with great promises for perceived “free” medical care.” (10:40 am)
Since blatant lies have become a “new normal” on this blog, this one does not even surprises anymore.
md
January 17th, 2013
11:47 am
“md — your comment has nothing to do with mine at all, you just want a soapbox.”
No, it just put it in context. Each of the “working poor” are individuals and many got there and remain there by their own volition, so I’ll call it out every chance I get vs letting someone put them in a group and act like we should all carry their load.
Why should a member of the working poor be given a pass on the responsibilities of society?
Why should one be allowed to settle for a more meager lifestyle and not have to contribute to society?
If 47% are not paying any income tax, how many are in that group by choice and why should they not be required to participate?
md
January 17th, 2013
11:49 am
Thanks Dusty, just calling it like I see it and correcting those that can’t see past the end of their noses.
We choose everything we do, and I get tired of those that don’t want to take responsibility for those choices…….
Don't Tread
January 17th, 2013
12:06 pm
Maybe we can mint a special quadrillion-dollar “Medicaid” coin, deposit that into the fund, tax it, then distribute the money to all that want it. (Of course, no ID or proof of citizenship required, because that would be racist.) Free healthcare for all!
Dusty
January 17th, 2013
12:11 pm
AH dear MarkV
Here with his propensity to use the word “lies”. I mean “blatant” at that. Somebody must have stepped on his toes.
True, I doubt that insurance will ever get out of medical care.. But insurance companies are making fortunes and obviously it is a profit making procedure, not a goodwill effort for anyone. But liability insurance has caused doctors great expense because lawyers have pushed every claim no matter how trivial some are. Lawyers are looking for people who can make claims. Watch your TV advertisements if you do not believe that..
Medicaid is not working well and will soon kill itself from lack of proper regulation. It has stumbled from Fed to State to Fed until it ends up with the mess such as Kyle has described, the crazy “bed tax’. We can do better than that for the poor.
Have you ever heard of Grady Hospital? It runs from a congomerate of funds. I think with some thought to a combination of private AND public funds can be better organzied without the total direction of government. ObamaCare is placing your choices for treatment under the rule of government, not the people who pay for it or those trained to do it
Unlike you, I do not believe that government can do EVERYTHING better than anyone. That decisions must all be delegated to the government to make for you. No way. I believe there is something better for the poor than government control. Do you not realize that is a form of slavery? That we have fought wars to get away from kings and slaves?
If you don’t believe that, then you are not in agreement with the foundation of this country and that is freeedom in all forms. Do what you want but don’t take my freedom away to do it.
. .
MarkV
January 17th, 2013
12:27 pm
Dusty @12:11 pm
Dear Dusty,
Sorry, but I call things what they are. If you can document that President Obama promised free health care, please do it and I will apologize.
“But insurance companies are making fortunes and obviously it is a profit making procedure, not a goodwill effort for anyone.”
I am extremely pleased that you recognize the need for non-profit universal health coverage, i.e., the so called “single payer system” or “public option.”
“ObamaCare is placing your choices for treatment under the rule of government, not the people who pay for it or those trained to do it.”
And how does ObamaCare do that? By having a group of professionals advising about what is
effective and what is not? How do you exactly imagine that to be done otherwise? Leaving it up to every individual provider to decide everything, even if it is based on his/her monetary advantage, and just let the patient pay that? Or do you naively believe that that does not happen?
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
January 17th, 2013
12:33 pm
Are we free to opt out of Obozocare and provide for our own health care needs? We are not. Obozocare makes us less free. But of course, not as much as the liberal fascists would prefer.
md
January 17th, 2013
12:36 pm
“By having a group of professionals advising about what is effective and what is not?”
And who here believes those professionals won’t be chosen because of their ideology? And that is where the problems come in…….
middle of the road
January 17th, 2013
12:43 pm
“Are we free to opt out of Obozocare and provide for our own health care needs? We are not. Obozocare makes us less free.”
Yes, it makes you less free. In order to give you (and me) total freedom, if you chose not to buy insurance, then needed medical care and could not demonstrate an ability to pay, then you should be put on the curb AND ALLOWED TO DIE! That is freedom.
Thulsa Doom
January 17th, 2013
12:43 pm
This is similar to rising costs in higher education due to ever more govt subsidies. The more the govt gets involved and the more the govt subsidizes something the higher the costs rise.
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
January 17th, 2013
12:54 pm
As long as government is involved in health care, we are not going to get high quality healthcare at rock bottom prices. When some entrepreneur has to deal with a “certificate of need”, before he can open a hospital and a person can not buy just the medical insurance they need, but must buy a one size fits all policy approved by and limited to the state the individual lives in, we have scuttled the free enterprise system for some nether region somewhere between total socialism and ineptitude. Seems we need to decide, total socialist medical care and accept the rationing, poor care, and shrinking amount of medical professionals, or do the preferable thing of getting the government out of the way and let the free enterprise system fully function.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
January 17th, 2013
12:59 pm
Yes, it makes you less free. In order to give you (and me) total freedom, if you chose not to buy insurance, then needed medical care and could not demonstrate an ability to pay, then you should be put on the curb AND ALLOWED TO DIE!
———-
The moochers aren’t buying health insurance. That’s the big lie of Obozocare.
MarkV
January 17th, 2013
1:14 pm
md @ 12:36 pm
“And who here believes those professionals won’t be chosen because of their ideology? And that is where the problems come in…….”
Please define the ideological question in what is effective in treating cancer, diabetes, heart disease …
Lynnie Gal
January 17th, 2013
1:24 pm
This is a stupid argument to have in our legislature, when our governor turned down BILLIONS in aid from the Federal government to expand Medicaid and help hospitals cover their costs. Our state government is run by a gang of backward hillbillies who can’t agree on anything other than to hide tax increases so they don’t look like tax increases and turn down money for our state so they can say they cut spending. Georgians need to have their head examined (which will require health insurance) if they vote these homeschooled hillbillies back in office in 2014.
Thulsa Doom
January 17th, 2013
1:35 pm
“This is a stupid argument to have in our legislature, when our governor turned down BILLIONS in aid from the Federal government to expand Medicaid and help hospitals cover their costs.”
Naw. What is stupid is when someone thinks all that Federal money is just free money that never has to be repaid by the same taxpayers. Its more debt that we have to pay back in the form of taxes on the Federal side of the ledger. Jeez.
middle of the road
January 17th, 2013
1:38 pm
“The moochers aren’t buying health insurance.”
True. All those people who make good money, don’t buy health insurance, and then don’t pay for their medical care when they inevitably receive it – they are MOOCHERS. Even if they make $100,000 per year. You and I and the rest of the insured pay for their care with our higher hospital bills and higher insurance premiums.
md
January 17th, 2013
1:41 pm
“Please define the ideological question in what is effective in treating cancer, diabetes, heart disease …”
Cost. There are differing ideologies on condums, you think it won’t be any different when it comes to major procedures and treatments and the costs involved?
md
January 17th, 2013
1:44 pm
“This is a stupid argument to have in our legislature, when our governor turned down BILLIONS in aid from the Federal government to expand Medicaid and help hospitals cover their costs.”
And the factoid that it will cost the state more money to take the money. Come on folks expand your thought process a bit.
The Fed does not cover 100% of the costs and the program is forever and a day. Then add to that the additional costs of expanding the delivery system. Then add in the fact that many states are balanced budget states and are already cutting everything they can to meet their budgets.
THINK people……….
Georgia
January 17th, 2013
1:45 pm
Goodbye, my fine friend. I’ll see you in the round tables on Sunday morning. Dont you dare not believe that you will get there. You’ve got that “it” factor. you know, the x factor. you do. You are a very young george will. We need the conservative check on liberal excesses. Your voice will always sell. Just don’t write nothing. Pay for writers. Okay? Let your interns write your blog and you’ll be fine. Not kidding here. You want to make it or not? Stop writing. Just talk on camera. Love you.
Georgia
January 17th, 2013
1:46 pm
D’OH!!
Dusty
January 17th, 2013
1:46 pm
MarkV,
You are saying things like YOU see them with your predilection of seeing all things in liberal government as good.
You also know that Obama gave the impression that EVERYBODY, even those without money, would have healthcare. That is know as FREE.
Please google Obama health plan and read under the section listed as Subsidies. “Individuals and families who do not qualify for Medicaid or SCHIP will receive an income related federal subsidy.”
IN other words, if you can’t get free care one way, the government will give you the money another way to pay for your health needs. Still known as FREE.given to you by the broke but generous ObamaCare. Dependent liberal voters knew what he meant and voted for him.
Georgia
January 17th, 2013
1:47 pm
Pay no attention to the last two comments behind the curtain….oh dear, I’m not even a good wizard…..
md
January 17th, 2013
1:49 pm
TD, what do you mean “repay”. The fed doesn’t have it to begin with, so folks like Lynnie must be missing the fact that the fed will get it from us and then turn around and give it back and ask for a big thank you as if they are doing us a favor………….
Cletus
January 17th, 2013
1:55 pm
“…Medicaid patients have ever more trouble finding doctors who will accept them because of the program’s low reimbursement rates.”
Forget Medicaid, the bigger problem is MediCARE. Seniors are basically forced into the Medicare system, and at the point in life when they require the most medical help there are fewer and fewer MDs who are participating in the program because of the low reimbursement rates.
md
January 17th, 2013
2:02 pm
“…Medicaid patients have ever more trouble finding doctors who will accept them because of the program’s low reimbursement rates.”
And what many fail to understand is that these rates are a major factor in rising healthcare costs. Our benevolent masters will tell the masses that they are doing a great job of holding down the costs and point to these rates (and use it to justify single payer), what they fail to say is that doctors/hospitals/nursing homes have to make up for those lower rates by charging everyone else more.
Dusty
January 17th, 2013
2:13 pm
Hey, Governor Deal just presented a BALANCED BUDGET for the state of Georgia.. I like his closing statement. “Together we will run the state rather than the lives of our citizens.
Too bad the present federal administration can’t do and say the same thing for our country. .
MarkV
January 17th, 2013
2:14 pm
md @ 1:41 pm
MarkV: “Please define the ideological question in what is effective in treating cancer, diabetes, heart disease …”
md: “Cost. There are differing ideologies on condums, you think it won’t be any different when it comes to major procedures and treatments and the costs involved?”
This issue neatly demonstrates not just the extremism, but a total mindlessness of the conservative fringe. So a group of professionals advising on the effectiveness of medical treatment cannot be trusted on ideological grounds, because they may take cost into consideration. So what is the alternative? Leave it up to the insurance companies, who would make a decision on the grounds of what? How about cost? Or the medical providers, who might make a decision based on the profit based on the number and choice of tests and procedures?
And what about that group of professionals, when the administration changes and a different party comes into power. Will the “ideological grounds” change?
And why not extend this “thinking” to everything else. Should we have an FDA to test drugs a food? Why, they might make decisions based on ideological grounds, such as costs. Let’s get rid of it.
What about NASA? They might decide which planet to land on based on ideological grounds, such as cost. What the heck, let’s get rid of the Defense Department! They might make military decision based on ideology! The choice is endless!
MarkV
January 17th, 2013
2:21 pm
Dusty @ 1:46 pm
“You also know that Obama gave the impression that EVERYBODY, even those without money, would have healthcare. That is know as FREE.”
That is known as “Free” only either to people who do not think, or as a shortcut we all use. When we get a “free coupon,” it is not free. Any “free offer” is not really free, but we all understand the meaning.
“Please google Obama health plan and read under the section listed as Subsidies. “Individuals and families who do not qualify for Medicaid or SCHIP will receive an income related federal subsidy.”
I do not need to google, I am quite aware of it. What is your point? You are against any subsidy? Really? Think about it before you answer.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
January 17th, 2013
2:42 pm
If you think folks making $100k are the moochers, and that federal Medicaid dollars are conjured from thin air, then you’re part of the reason our economy sucks and we have a liberal fascist in our White House.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
January 17th, 2013
2:44 pm
Subsidies should only be available to the severely mentally or physically handicapped. Everyone else gets what they work for.
MarkV
January 17th, 2013
2:51 pm
Dusty @ 1:46 pm
“IN other words, if you can’t get free care one way, the government will give you the money another way to pay for your health needs. “
To help you with your answer about subsidies, and specifically, this subsidy for health insurance, let’s be clear about the choices:
If people do not have money for the health care insurance, and cannot pay for a treatment, there are the following alternatives:
1. Let those people suffer or die.
2. Let them use the medical facilities anyway. Somebody will still have to pay for the treatment, which will be – another form of subsidy.
Your choice.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
January 17th, 2013
3:01 pm
Choice 3: big-hearted liberals contribute their own money to health care charities.
That’ll never happen. Liberals are too greedy to help.
Georgia
January 17th, 2013
3:37 pm
Corporations are people that cant get sick.
USC-69
January 17th, 2013
3:51 pm
The bed tax will, of course, increase the cost of hospitalization for those Georgians who require in-patient care. It will raise insurance premiums for all of us. We will all be paying Federal taxes that will be dispersed to those states agreeing to expand their Medicaid Services. Therefore, if you get sick in Georgia, you have to pay for Medicaid services for Georgians through the Bed Tax and also pay for Medicaid services in California, New York, etc. Jan Brewer, Governor of Arizona, and a vigorous Obama hater, finally realized that to turn away 100 percent coverage of Medicaid in her state was foolish. Governor Deal, not known as a clever or successful businessman, thinks that he can sabotage Obamacare by refusing to accept the return of federal taxes. He doesn’t care that Georgia children will be denied healthcare or that Georgia will continue to be seen as both mean and uneducated.
JJohnson
January 17th, 2013
3:53 pm
You guys are missing the point – most Medicaid receipients in Georgia are children (about two-thirds). The rest are either dual-eligibles with Medicare coverage, a pregnant mom (and coverage ends a few weeks after the baby is born) or someone with Social Security. You can’t just be poor and qualify for Medicaid. So when you are calling some moochers, keep in mind you’re talking about someone disabled, someone old and disabled, a pregnant woman or a kid. That’s all.
Georgia
January 17th, 2013
3:54 pm
See? The Martians in H.G.Well’s “War of the Worlds” need not have given up, if only they attacked in the person of their corporations, (like the Chinese and Saudis are doing).
Lets shift the discussion to our own protection, shall we? People with vulnerable immune systems? Hello? I know you’re out there.
Dusty
January 17th, 2013
4:01 pm
MarkV
Only you, could try to change the meaning of the word FREE. If you don’t know, I won’t try to tell you.
Lil Barry is correct. A third choice is to support charity hospitals as run by charity. Many hospitals WERE once run by charity but were taken over by government. or corporations.
My denomination supports (manages) a hospital in Palestine. among other charitable endeavors. I believe st Judes (USA) is another example of a charitable medical center..
Perhaps we should turn over hospitals to those who really care about all people including the poor. The Salvation Army is not a hospital but it really takes care of the poor and helpless. There are innumerable such organizations not run by government.
Try and turn your mind from the premise that only government can answer big questions. With your thinking, the government should do everything even when it does not have the money. So you would keep raising taxes on citizens to pay for everything for everybody, not just the poor.
Don’t you see where this is heading as fast as possible? It is communism which has already been proven to fail.. Money earned goes to the government who makes all decisions. Your blindness is inexcusable.
md
January 17th, 2013
4:06 pm
Let me put the word “cost” into perspective for Mark in the terms of ideology.
I mentioned condums for a reason, as to one that is a proponent of personal responsibility, an individual will go get their own condum (birth control) if they CHOOSE to participate in recreational sex. Much like buying the gas and the boat if one CHOOSES that form of recreation.
Those that believe in the collective will vote for others to pay for those choices…….as they just did.
So cost in the broader discussion of healthcare means one side will make decisions based on choices and affordability while the other side will base decisions on providing whatever they feel (operative word as emotions play a big role) is necessary and worry about raising taxes when the time comes………….
THAT is the cost based on ideology.
MarkV
January 17th, 2013
4:16 pm
Dusty @ 4:01 pm
“Only you, could try to change the meaning of the word FREE. If you don’t know, I won’t try to tell you.”
Dusty,
No, it is you who refuses to admit that we use that word in different meanings. When you go to a hotel and they tell you that “breakfast is free,” how do you understand it? One way is that you do not have to pay for it. But you still pay for it, or for part of it, with all other guests, by paying the hotel bills.
The same is true with “free health care.” If you go to a country with universal health care, people might tell you that when they go to a doctor or hospital, it is “free.” Are you so arrogant to think that they are so stupid that they believe that nobody pays for the treatment? It is just their way of saying, “we all pay by paying taxes to cover all expenses, so that when we go to the doctor or hospital, we do not have to pay, it becomes ‘free.’”
So, don’t be so condescending, it is not becoming.
Dusty
January 17th, 2013
4:24 pm
MarkV
Condescension is better than calling someone a liar. That is your way of being rude, crude and unattractive and you do it FREEly…
MarkV
January 17th, 2013
4:29 pm
Dusty @4:01 pm
Dusty,
As I wrote before, I wish you had more aptitude for political arguments.
“A third choice is to support charity hospitals as run by charity. Many hospitals WERE once run by charity but were taken over by government. or corporations. “
Are you really trying to make me laugh? Charity? Who is charity? Some animate objects? No, it means people, and the bills are still paid by other people that those being treated. So you are just substituting one group of people paying for the treatment for another group of people paying for the treatment, or for all people. It reminds me of you infamous earlier argument that hospitals are budgeting for the treatment of people who cannot pay. As if those budgets were given to the hospitals from somewhere above, rather than paid by other people – subsidized. Incredible! Of course, once you start taking you cue from Lil’ Barry, reason does not have a chance. I
“Don’t you see where this is heading as fast as possible? It is communism which has already been proven to fail.. Money earned goes to the government who makes all decisions. Your blindness is inexcusable.”
Another laugh. When someone starts arguing with communism, all rationality is lost. Just for fun, where has communism “been proven to fail?” Or to put it differently, where has communism ever been? Let’s see the extent of your knowledge of what you are talking about.
Michael H. Smith
January 17th, 2013
4:30 pm
Only one problem with replacing a bad group of politicians, Kyle – Electing a worse group of politicians!
Anyway, if you want to look at health-care remember the rules change – probably forever more – next year. We shall all be comrades then and health-care by – “gub’ment” – committee will become standard fare.
So long Representative Republic. Hello Social(ist) Democracy.
MarkV
January 17th, 2013
4:31 pm
Dusty @ 4:24 pm
“Condescension is better than calling someone a liar. That is your way of being rude, crude and unattractive and you do it FREEly…”
Quote me calling someone a liar.
Michael H. Smith
January 17th, 2013
4:33 pm
Grab a shovel or roll your britches legs up there Dusty.
I mean, it’s getting deep, real deep!
MarkV
January 17th, 2013
4:58 pm
md @ 4:06 pm
“So cost in the broader discussion of healthcare means one side will make decisions based on choices and affordability while the other side will base decisions on providing whatever they feel (operative word as emotions play a big role) is necessary and worry about raising taxes when the time comes………….”
I for one, when I go to the doctor or a hospital and will need a treatment, will hope that the decisions will be made based on what is necessary to make me well.
As for the accusation of emotions playing a big role, it is not only insulting, it is too inane to take
seriously. The subject was a group of professionals making general recommendation. Emotions toward whom? Mankind?
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
January 17th, 2013
4:59 pm
USC-69: Governor Deal, not known as a clever or successful businessman, thinks that he can sabotage Obamacare by refusing to accept the return of federal taxes.
————————-
Perhaps the governor is doing what he thinks is right. Real Americans believe in smaller government. The Medicare expansion is the opposite of that.
indigo
January 17th, 2013
5:01 pm
At last!!!
Something Georgia can do!!!
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/georgia-improves-in-bed-bug-ranking/nTzJh/
ODD OWL
January 17th, 2013
5:22 pm
When ObamaCare goes into effect in 2014, the feds will combine medicare, medicaid, dental and eye care into one all encompassing ObamaCare medical program… All greedy doctors will be forced to accept the fees that ObamaCare pays or they can take down their shingle and move to Australia…
md
January 17th, 2013
5:33 pm
“As for the accusation of emotions playing a big role, it is not only insulting, it is too inane to take
seriously. The subject was a group of professionals making general recommendation. Emotions toward whom? Mankind?”
I don’t care if you think it’s insulting, it’s the way it is.
Did you not see the latest hypocrisy with Jay Carney issueing a statement about the NRA using Obama’s kids? While at the same time Obama trots out 4 kids during his presser on gun control…..that my friend is emotion.
Birth control pills……pure emotion. Made by a panel of experts??
You are only fooling yourself.
md
January 17th, 2013
5:36 pm
” All greedy doctors will be forced to accept the fees that ObamaCare pays or they can take down their shingle and move to Australia…”
And as time goes by we will get what we pay for……oh joy, Disgruntled Doctors to join all the other disgruntled Federal employees. If you really want that sourpuss down at the dmv cutting in to you, get ready and have fun.
nathan's political arsonist
January 17th, 2013
5:40 pm
weak, spinless legislators and governor to dodge accountability on this one. they should all be unelected on November 4, 2014
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right
January 17th, 2013
5:42 pm
Odd owl once again displays a shocking ignorance of how government and existing laws work.
Suffice to say, nothing like he describes is in obamacare.
nathan's political arsonist
January 17th, 2013
5:43 pm
the arizona ding bat finally saw the light. ga politicians will let ga citizens suffer and die first
MarkV
January 17th, 2013
5:47 pm
md @ 5:33 pm
md,
The intellectual dishonesty of people who make arguments you do is staggering. When it suits them, they accuse those the government panel of professionals in ObamaCare, whose stated role is to lower healthcare expenses by recommending effective procedures, of not making decisions based on choices and affordability, but rather “on providing whatever they feel is necessary … and worry about raising taxes when the time comes.” The same people have made arguments, when it suited them in the campaign, that the purpose of that government panel was “health rationing.”
Dusty
January 17th, 2013
5:51 pm
MarkV 4:31
So you want to know when you called someone a liar..
Suppose you check back to this morning at 11:28. There you referred to one of my comments as an example of blatant lies. You might call that an indirect way of calling someone a liar
There’s the info you wanted, unimportant as it is.
.
Just Say No to New Taxes
January 17th, 2013
5:54 pm
This is the plan RoytheCrookBarnyard paid an out of state law firm 100 million dollars for back in the last years of his reign. It is a way of recycling Federal Medicaid dollars as State matching dollars, and the Feds had already told Georgia how to design the tax, saying it had to be a broad based tax on all hospital beds, not just the ones occupied by Medicaid deadbeats. Do you just hat lawyers?
md
January 17th, 2013
5:58 pm
Mark…what world do you live in?
Just about every appointed position in our gov’t comes with ideology attached.
Start with the Supreme Court…..and move to the Cabinet positions……and then on down the line.
What’s staggering is for you to expect others to believe that it will not come into play with Obamacare…….as I said, only fooling yourself.
Dusty
January 17th, 2013
6:09 pm
OddOwl @5:22
Yeah, send all the American doctors to Australia. Take the finest medical care in the world and send it to Australia. You seem to think that would be a smart move.
Why don’t you spend over twenty years learning how to care for human beings, take an oath to do so, and then get paid like you work at McDonalds?
The nurse’s aids will run ObamaCare and take care of you when you “stroke out” over taxes taking 50% of your income. Oh, you do pay taxes, don’t you?
md
January 17th, 2013
6:12 pm
And Mark, after all your complaining you have yet to explain why birth control pills are not an emotional decision. Are there not far cheaper alternatives that one may choose to use if one wants to have recreational sex and not get pregnant? (and we aren’t talking about the medicinal need here)
ODD OWL
January 17th, 2013
6:25 pm
@ Tiberious ==> Politically unaffiliated ignoramous…
MarkV
January 17th, 2013
6:38 pm
Dusty @5:51 pm
Sorry, Dusty, but I would have expected from you a better understanding of the language.
I call someone a liar only if he/she lies habitually. It would be ridiculous to call someone a liar because of one or a few statements. Most of us, who are not saints (and perhaps even those), are guilty of a lie sometime during their lives. That is not a reason for calling them liars; otherwise almost all of us would have to be called liars.
It is the same as with, for instance, calling a statement stupid, and confuse that with calling a person stupid. Again, most of us say a stupid thing now and then – I know I do – but that is not a reason to think that person stupid, or call him/her that.
Also, I find it insincere to use a euphemism in place of the word like a lie. You wrote that Obama promised people free healthcare. What do you call that? Truth? If you do, you must know when he did that, and you can quote him. Can you?
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
January 17th, 2013
6:39 pm
Moron New York Democrats shoot themselves in the foot:
NEW YORK (WABC) — It appears someone forgot to exempt police officers from the ban of ammunition clips with more than 7 bullets in New York State’s new gun control law.
It’s a big oversight that apparently happened in the haste by the Cuomo Administration to get a tough package of gun-control measures signed into law.
Kyle Wingfield
January 17th, 2013
6:47 pm
All right, immediate commenting is over for tonight.