Grover’s right: Bed-tax bill is all about passing the buck
Say what you will about Grover Norquist — and I know many of you have had plenty to say about him in the past, none of it good. But I don’t think there’s any question his organization, Americans for Tax Reform, is right about one particular element of its statement regarding Gov. Nathan Deal’s plan to have the Department of Community Health, rather than the Legislature, decide whether to continue imposing the hospital bed tax (or “hospital provider fee,” in the current Georgia political vernacular).
Here’s the statement, obtained by my AJC news-side colleagues. I’ve put the seemingly unobjectionable part in bold-face:
Gov. Deal’s decision to shift taxing authority from the legislature to the Department of Community Health does nothing to improve the hospital bed tax. Instead, it is a step in the wrong direction, attempting to absolve the governor and legislature of any potential blame for the looming tax increase.
The hospital bed tax remains a job-killing tax hike that will increase the cost of health care for Georgians and drive up the national debt. Thankfully, many Georgia legislators have taken a stand against the bed tax; Americans for Tax Reform applauds their resolve in the face of silly gimmicks on behalf of tax-and-spend special interests.
Now, you can believe the bed tax is needed, or you can believe it isn’t. You can applaud Norquist’s Taxpayer Protection Pledge or consider it the root of all evil in American politics. But I don’t know how you can disagree with Norquist that Georgia’s Republican lawmakers are trying to pass the buck by giving authority to levy the tax/fee to the DCH board.
If our legislators believe they have no option to balance the budget other than levying the bed tax, that the budget can no longer be cut and tax increases are necessary, then let them come out and say that and defend it — and stop talking about “cutting government” in all their election campaigns.
If they think it is right to make this tax, pitched three years ago as a temporary solution during an abnormally sharp recession and budget crunch, into a permanent tax — which is exactly what it would become once the Legislature no longer had to vote on it periodically — let them make that argument.
Otherwise, I think it would be appropriate for Norquist’s group to rate a vote or gubernatorial signature for the pass-the-buck bill as a vote or signature for a tax hike. And then Georgia’s voters can use that information to decide if their lawmakers did the right thing, which is all the ATR pledge is supposed to do anyway.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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125 comments Add your comment
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
January 15th, 2013
9:44 am
I know one lawmaker that’s doing the right thing -
District 28 state Sen. Mike Crane, R-Newnan, commented on the bed tax legislation at length.
“Second, we have to find ways to control the rising cost of health care rather than continue to fuel the cost increases with more tax dollars. We need to put the consumer back in the driver’s seat when it comes to health care. Consumer dollars are the most efficient dollars in the market place. They’re selective, informed and frugal, which leads to a competitive and efficient market. Such a market provides for the best allocation of resources, drives innovation and lowers cost. Tax dollars tend to have the opposite effect on the marketplace.
Right on, my man.
We need more voices like that.
Del
January 15th, 2013
9:47 am
Kyle, Amen
Road Scholar
January 15th, 2013
9:48 am
Our Governor and legislative body has no vision or cahunnas! Passing the buck again.
Thy cannot even organize a health exchange based on free market policies and programs. So much for being business friendly!
Whirled Peas
January 15th, 2013
9:51 am
Now there is the ultimate oxymoron. A temporary tax.
We need to put Grover Norquist on Mount Rushmore.
Politico
January 15th, 2013
9:57 am
Kyle
Regardless of how this issue finally plays out; Deal and the vast majority of elected officials “working” at the Gold Dome will be reelected.
They know this and those who will vote for them know this, so there shouldn’t be much that goes on that shocks many people.
Just like Murphy and his boys. Only major change is the D to an R…. Some are even have the same individuals
Bob Loblaw
January 15th, 2013
9:59 am
@Aesop: “We need to put the consumer back in the driver’s seat when it comes to health care” means that sick people that can’t afford the doctor/hospital bill will just stay sick. If they’re really sick, they’ll infect others and they’ll show up for the most expensive care available, when they are at their sickest point and not pay for any of it.
Whether or not a state agency levies a fee or the Governor does, the Governor is still responsible. Grover wants GA to “be nice” to the federal budget and not draw down legally permissible funds to pay for Medicaid. Seriously, that’s his position.
Until the Federal government changes the law, Georgia is crazy not to take the funds to fill a gap that its taxpayers can’t afford all by themselves.
Michael
January 15th, 2013
10:01 am
I am no fan of Grover, but he is right about this one topic. Bu that is what politicians do, pass the blame to others so they can serve another term.
Centrist
January 15th, 2013
10:14 am
Disgusting, gutless move by Republican politicians that only hurts their credibility.
Too bad Democrats have so much less credibility – guess that’s why the Repubs think they can get away with stuff like this.
Over on another AJC blog I don’t read, I see the headline how Democrats are going to push back on issues. Fat chance now that they are such a insignificant minority party that is routinely ignored in Georgia.
Cutty
January 15th, 2013
10:16 am
What state does Grover pay taxes in? When politicians took the oath of office to uphold the Constitution of ATF, then we can talk.
If it was the Center for American Progress or some democratic-leaning organization, I doubt Kyle would be talking about them. Even tho dems and repubs may come up w good ideas. Individual mandates come to mind.
Dusty
January 15th, 2013
10:16 am
Bob Loblaw
You have expressed exactly what we want to do. That is, not draw down funds from the Federal Government. You seem to be against lowering Federal expenses. How can we lower the terrible Federal debt if we don’t STOP taking money from the Feds? Have you not noticed that we have a sixteen trillion dollar debt?
Legal permissable funds? That’s a ;joke. I suppose it is permissably legal to have a sixteen trillion dollar debt but that is a suicide wish for the country. Forget the handouts and remember the debt.
indigo
January 15th, 2013
10:28 am
Ultra conservative Norquist harshly critizises ultra conservative Deal and GA Legislature.
Priceless.
Dusty
January 15th, 2013
10:41 am
Kyle,
I wish you would tell us again exactly how this tax works. The hospitals pay a tax on each bed and then they get a refund somehow from the Feds? Sounds like something that would be added to patient’s bills in the meantime. I don’t quite understand how this works well for anyone.
When will citizens be taxed and refunded for the number of beds they have in house? . Hotels? Tthis sounds like a BId-a-bed or Bungle program. But I don’t blame Gov. Deal fro handing it over to the HealthCcommittee. That’s why the state has that committee. The governor will still be in on the final approval.
Karl Marx
January 15th, 2013
10:43 am
Say what you want about Norquist or the legislature but this tax will not be paid by Hospitals or Patients. This tax is passed on to Insurances companies and paid with premiums we ALL pay.
Just another hidden tax on everybody is all it is.
md
January 15th, 2013
10:44 am
“Until the Federal government changes the law, Georgia is crazy not to take the funds to fill a gap that its taxpayers can’t afford all by themselves.”
Hmmm, might want to think that one through. Those same taxpayers will have to pay the federal taxes so what is the difference? Are you saying taxpayers can better afford a federal tax vs a state tax?
It’s illogical.
Dusty
January 15th, 2013
10:44 am
Indigo,
Is it impossible for you to realize that some people say what they have found to be true? There are some. But you seem surpised.
Jefferson
January 15th, 2013
10:50 am
Until you realize life cost money, you will never be happy,
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
January 15th, 2013
10:52 am
Americans for Tax Reform
According to an investigative report from the Senate Indian Affairs Committee on the Jack Abramoff scandal, released in June 2006, ATR served as a “conduit” for funds that flowed from Abramoff’s clients to finance surreptitiously grass-roots lobbying campaigns.[28] Records show that donations from the Choctaw and Kickapoo tribes to ATR were coordinated in part by Abramoff, and in some cases preceded meetings between the tribes and the White House.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_for_Tax_Reform
They sound like fine Americans
yuzeyurbrane
January 15th, 2013
10:52 am
So what’s news? Deal is a hypocrite. As are, hopefully, a majority of Republican legislators on this particular issue/
Logical Dude
January 15th, 2013
10:54 am
Kyle: “But I don’t know how you can disagree with Norquist that Georgia’s Republican lawmakers are trying to pass the buck by giving authority to levy the tax/fee to the DCH board.”
Heck, even a broken clock is right once a day.
And for this article, it sounds more like a praise article for Norquist instead of a piece that should be critical of the governor and legislature. I mean, did Norquist himself come to Georgia and review all the tax policies that the governor and legislature pass the buck on?
Come on, Kyle, be critical of the government and their ability to raise taxes by calling them fees, or pass the buck on who should pay what, and sticking it to the unsuspecting taxpayer when they are at the worst possible situation (yes, in a hospital, where the patient really has very little say if they want to be there or not.)
By using this article as a defense of Norquist, it makes you look like you’re swooning to stardom instead of looking at the whole picture. Well, it also looks like you’re using it as a cover so that you don’t have to take so much heat for directly criticizing the government.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
January 15th, 2013
10:58 am
Jefferson: Until you realize life cost money, you will never be happy
———-
Is that why Obozo’s moocher base seems perpetually angry?
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
January 15th, 2013
11:00 am
Is that why Obozo’s moocher base seems perpetually angry?
No didnt you hear. Since he was re elected we get everything free.
We just have to show our “I voted for Obama twice” card.
Good times
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
January 15th, 2013
11:05 am
Stupid tax passed around like a bad burrito, get rid of it. Taxes, despite what the Dems constantly preach, always wind up on the backs of the consumers. They claim it is an effort to get money from the Medical giants or the insurance companies, but they always wind up being passed on to the poor sucker, that has to visit the hospital, and needs a $4 aspirin.
As Mike Crane says above, consumers spending their own money make the most informed and efficient choices. How do we treat the poor, who don’t have the money to shop around? I think we need to rethink what we are doing now. Maybe give the money to the family involved instead, rather than funnel it through the sieve we now use, where the government, the hospital, the medical labs, and the doctors all take as many bites as they can as it passes through. Yes, many of the families might cheat and use it for something else and not get the care they need, many would be poor managers of the money, but it would not be any worse than what is happening now, and it just might ‘bend the cost curve” as Obama once boasted.
Politico, yeah Deal and the GOP will be reelected, because in politics it is always the lesser of two evils. The party that fleeces only one pocket and wastes some of it, or the party that fleeces both pockets and wastes more of it.
Dusty
January 15th, 2013
11:05 am
Cheesy,
I see you have been doing research (as part of your job) way back to 2006 about Abramoff. But we were not talking about Abramoff and what he did with the Chocktaw and Kickapoo tribes and the ATR back then.
So you found a tibbit against Norquist’s organization Whoopee! Maybe you will get a Pulitzer for your efforts. Somebody has to dig in the mud, I suppose. Seems you are suitable.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
January 15th, 2013
11:06 am
Since he was re elected we get everything free.
——–
That’s what his chump supporters thought. What they got (the few who have paying jobs) is a smaller paycheck.
Tax hikes on Obozo’s moocher base–priceless.
md
January 15th, 2013
11:06 am
“Until you realize life cost money, you will never be happy,”
Yet some are happy buying the generic version vs the designer brand put on the credit card…..
OakhurstDawg
January 15th, 2013
11:10 am
Kyle: Duh. Did you really need Grover for this?
Of course Deal’s trying to dodge the issue. Grover has forced the GOP into a dogmatc stance on something that should be negotiable based on ever changing conditions.
Deal’s bed has been made for him, so to speak. Now he must lie in it?
JamVet
January 15th, 2013
11:11 am
Is that why Mitt’s moocher base just got crushed at the polls?
Keep up the excellent work at getting that successful message out there bb!
You are invaluable…
nathan's political arsonist
January 15th, 2013
11:16 am
norquist is only relevant to the remaining few who will listen. but he’s right on this one. the spinless governor and legislative leadership have to take this one on themselves, or they should all be retired on 11-4-14
Dusty
January 15th, 2013
11:16 am
wow, cheesy,
You were trying to be sarcastic about the” I voted for Obama twice Cards” but it is too close to the truth to get a laugh.
ObamaCare is nothing but a present for the Obama card holders along with unemployment extensions and a vacation trip over the cliff. He keeps your Christmas stockings full. I see you writing thank-you notes here quite often.
Better watch it. You may say something truthful while knocking conservatives.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
January 15th, 2013
11:17 am
Mitt’s base works for a living and are the folks who make the real economy run. Cheering the fact that they’re a minority just shows your liberal fascism.
Bob Loblaw
January 15th, 2013
11:26 am
I’m not against lowering Federal expenditures. However, Federal law states that we can draw down more money to pay for Medicaid using this method. With a $500M hole in the Medicaid budget, where do you want to raise these funds from? Are you ready for higher state taxes to pay for more Medicaid? Because that’s the answer.
If the Federal government wants to lower its expenses, then it should change the law. You think its a joke? Its a joke to sit there on your broke rear end and not take funds that by the way, Georgians paid a portion of and instead raise taxes on yourself.
Dusty
January 15th, 2013
11:27 am
So Gov. Deal is “passing the buck” for turning a hospital tax issue over to the Health committee? Do you folks realize that HOSPITALS have something to do with health?
Deal is trying to run the state government in a democratic manner.
That means he does not make all decisions by himself. Get it?
A state government. run in a democratic manner . Please refer to your dictionary for the meaning of “democratic”. It means we don’t have just one man making all the decisions for the people of this state. The governor uses elected representatives to help him. decide what is best..
He is using proper procedure whether you like it or not.
Cheesy Grits is gone but not forgotten
January 15th, 2013
11:28 am
That’s what his chump supporters thought
No. We really do get everything free.
We just have to make sure there are no Romney folks around ( They are usually at work anyway )
We have secret handshakes and signals to make sure word doesn’t get out.
Why just this morning I got my IHOP breakfast for free.
If you had voted for Obama ( most of us did more than once ) you’d be getting free stuff too.
JDW
January 15th, 2013
11:29 am
“Georgia’s Republican lawmakers are trying to pass the buck ”
No way…passing the buck! Next thing you know they will shirk their duty on managing transportation and have a SPLOST vote…O’ wait
Only thing these guys can stand behind is keeping us safe from microchips.
md
January 15th, 2013
11:31 am
“With a $500M hole in the Medicaid budget, where do you want to raise these funds from? Are you ready for higher state taxes to pay for more Medicaid? Because that’s the answer. ”
Going to happen anyway as the fed funds do not cover the cost of additional administrative costs, unless one thinks we can add millions of individuals and service them all at no additional costs. The states are balking at the additional individuals because of two main issues. 1) Higher costs associated with adding millions more that will NOT be covered by the feds and 2) once these folks are added there will be no turning back the clock, it will be forever………..
Dusty
January 15th, 2013
11:38 am
Bob Loblaw
You still don’t get it.
The state is broke. The Feds are broke. When you have no money you stop spending it because you don’t have it.
We are already up to our necks in DEBT. CAN’T YOU REALIZE THAT?
Also, you do not borrow money to pay debts. That make you in double debt.
Stop spending as much as possible. We are so spoiled in the USA that we no longer know how to economize . But we better learn before someone forcibly shows us how. LIke when the Chinese want their money back.
Until you get those facts in mind, you are no help to the country.
Jefferson
January 15th, 2013
11:39 am
lil barry, you are full, jack. Now stay quiet, you won’t.
Dusty
January 15th, 2013
11:48 am
Cheesy,
Your Obama card is good for all pro-[Dem lobbyist work. Free meals! Go for it!
But try Burger KIng. It is better than IHOP. I know and I pay for mine..
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
January 15th, 2013
11:48 am
http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/01/15/3183497/cuba-acknowledges-51-cholera-cases.html
How can this be happening in Cuba, the place Michael Moore said had some of the best healthcare in the world? A socialist utopia with single payer coverage, has no comments about this outbreak. I guess a bed tax might help them afford some sanitation!
md
January 15th, 2013
11:50 am
I think the Chinese have written off that debt. After we started manipulating our currency (as we complain that they do it), they took action instead. They have been buying gold heavily and steadily for several years now in an attempt to alter the gold market, which was always our game.
They also want to eventually get the yuan onto the market as a world reserve currency, which shouldn’t be a problem once they become the world’s number 1 economy. After they do all that, the dollar will be vulnerable and our little life of luxury may very well be threatened.
It’s only a matter of time especially if the dems keep racking up debt.
Bob Loblaw
January 15th, 2013
11:50 am
@Dusty:
1) It is a federal law that requires GA to care for the Medicaid patients currently enrolled. In short, GA has no choice;
2) This law and the expenses associated with it have created a $500 million hole in this year’s budget. In short, the federal law requires this hole be filled, somehow;
3) There is federal law that allows GA to draw down federal funds to fill the hole.
Until you get those facts in mind, you’re not knowledgeable enough for the discussion, let alone any “help to the country” as you put it. Your debt matter is one to take up with the Feds, not with GA. GA will balance its budget. If the feds change the law, then you’ll see fewer Medicaid patients getting care, which apparently is the cut you’re looking to make in the debt.
Hillbilly D
January 15th, 2013
11:50 am
In my opinion, whether the bed tax is a good thing or a bad thing is immaterial, what matters is that the Legislature needs to vote it up or down. That’s their job, isn’t it?
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
January 15th, 2013
11:58 am
That’s right, Boblaw, we conservatives do want fewer people on the dole.
The liberal fascists (Obozo chief among them) want more on the dole.
Conservatives are for freedom. Democrats are for Democrats in power.
Politico
January 15th, 2013
12:02 pm
Hillbilly
Now you know the current legislature doesn’t want to be seen as voting on taxes and surely not raising any..
Purdue taught them well to obtain revenue increases via “fees”.
The end result is they get the increase in revenue but can tell their constituencies that they didn’t raise “taxes”.
It is a semantics game that has worked and will continue to work..
Hillbilly D
January 15th, 2013
12:05 pm
Politico
I didn’t say that’s what I thought would happen, just what should happen. The Legislature works the same way it’s worked for my lifetime and probably longer than that. They have perfected the game over the years but that’s to be expected, I guess. I have no illusion that it’s going to change.
As long as there is one party rule, which we’ve had for over 150 years, we’ll always have these problems.
Politico
January 15th, 2013
12:10 pm
Hillbilly
I agree and said earlier that it reminds me of Murphy and his boys..
I just find it amusing that their are people buying into this “fees” game….
Regardless of how one votes, it isn’t too hard to see what they are doing..
They know the “core base” will accept the “fee” more than a tx, even though it produces the same end result
Politico
January 15th, 2013
12:12 pm
*there
Dusty
January 15th, 2013
12:12 pm
Bob Loblaw
I did not make the Fed law on Medicaid and I do not make the state of Georgia pay for my medical care. Until we make people think of themselves as self supporting individuals, as we once were, we will continue to have debt or forced government direction in all aspects of our lives. I don’t want that.
Until you realize that independence comes in all forms for Americans, you will sink into a communistic, socialistic for\m of government. I fight against that because I want us to continue to be a free country. That may be simplistic to you, but it is the basis of my argument.
Dependents are not free. Debt holders are not free. So keep switching the debts of dependency from one source to another until it won’t work. I wish to keep us stable by sensible means, not pie in the sky or copying Cuba .
Hillbilly D
January 15th, 2013
12:19 pm
Debt holders are not free.
My Grandpa always told me that no man who has debt is ever free. That would cover the vast majority of folks in the modern world. He learned that lesson the hard way (as did many adults in post WW I/Depression America) and he drilled it into my head, regularly.
md
January 15th, 2013
12:19 pm
The big difference between a fee and a tax per se is that a fee is applied to the actual users, while only sales taxes work the same way.
I have no problem with fees for services as that is the way it should be.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
January 15th, 2013
12:21 pm
Hillbilly, that was back when folks were expected to repay their debts. That’s not the case today, if the mortgage market and student loan market are any indication.
md
January 15th, 2013
12:22 pm
I think Bob is mixing up his facts on medicaid. Obamacare comes into play on the “expansion” of medicaid while the laws on the books apply to those already on it. 2 totally different discussions.
Politico
January 15th, 2013
12:23 pm
md
And if you believe that is the only reasoning that Perdue and now Deal are into this “fee” vs “tax” game, that certainly is your right to have that opinion
Buzzy
January 15th, 2013
12:25 pm
Grover is irrelevant. The root of our problem is that Gov. Deal screwed GA out of federal money under the Affordable Care Act. As usual the Republicans want to act like a group of immature high school boys instead of facing up to reality: the Affordable Care Act is the law, and GA would be better off if it took advantage of it’s beneficial provisions. If some hospitals in Georgia go broke, it will be the Republicans who have to answer for it.
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
January 15th, 2013
12:31 pm
Politico, I agree that semantics seem to be what is most important for politicians these days. They try to frame things that people do not like, in ways that sounds more pleasing. Like “investments” instead of spending, but if they truly are “fees”, some are just taxes rapped in a new name, they are more acceptable for some of us.
I have no problem with a boat ramp fee to maintain boat ramps on government lakes. I own no boat and do not use ramps, so that seems fair to me. A fee on disposing tires is fair, if you don’t own a car, you don’t have to pay. A fee to use a state park seems fair to me, maybe if enough revenue is not raised, we can mothball that park. We have to cut back and make tough decisions, and fees allow us to make the decision, rather than the politicians, is this something worthwhile to invest our money in.
Aynie Sue
January 15th, 2013
12:34 pm
Let’s see now … who is it that wants spending cuts but won’t specify the cuts that will satisfy them? Who wants to shift the burden of deciding specific spending cuts to the Administration or to an unelected government agency? Who states their demands in percentages rather than identify specific cuts that will incur the wrath of the public?
The Republican members of the Congress and the Georgia Legislature, of course.
Politico
January 15th, 2013
12:36 pm
“some are just taxes rapped in a new name, they are more acceptable for some of us.”
Thanks for the acknowledgment and also your take on the issue. Some do not wish to accept this notion because that would go against their preconceived notions of those currently running the state. However, whether someone accepts or understands it doesn’t change the facts of what they are doing.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
January 15th, 2013
12:38 pm
Aynie: You certainly can’t accuse Obozo of wanting to cut spending.
Kyle Wingfield
January 15th, 2013
12:38 pm
Dusty @ 10:41: It is a tax on hospitals. You do not need to worry about how many beds you have at your house.
The mechanism, if I understand it correctly, works like this: The state taxes hospitals at 1.45 percent of their net patient revenue (i.e. those with more beds will end up paying more than those with fewer — thus the term “bed tax”). It spends the proceeds on Medicaid, allowing the state to qualify for more federal matching funds. The money (both state and federal) goes back to hospitals that treat more Medicaid patients — so some hospitals receive more money than they pay in tax, and others pay more in tax than they get back. It depends on how much of their service is provided to Medicaid patients. Therefore, the hospitals that treat more Medicaid patients tend to support it, and those that treat fewer tend to oppose it.
Politico
January 15th, 2013
12:41 pm
Kyle @ 12:38
Do you know if their are stats that show this information by hospital?
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
January 15th, 2013
12:42 pm
Politico
You have to acknowledge as well that the Dems do not like fees, because they hinder efforts to redistribute wealth.
Politico
January 15th, 2013
12:44 pm
Rafe
Wasn’t defending any Democrat. If you noticed I called out Murphy and his boys as being the same as what is going on today with one party rule in the state.
Kyle Wingfield
January 15th, 2013
12:46 pm
And it should go without saying that, as with virtually all business taxes, the ultimate payers of the tax will be consumers, employees or shareholders, depending on who is easiest to pass the cost to.
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
January 15th, 2013
12:46 pm
Kyle, Dusty can certainly speak for herself, but I don’t think you got what she was saying. Politicians love to tax things and if they can tax the beds in the hospital in an effort to raise money to help with medicaid, they could tax beds in a house to provide money for Sec 8 housing. You have a 6 bedroom house, you can afford to help someone have a one bedroom apt. I think this was what she was saying.
Kyle Wingfield
January 15th, 2013
12:47 pm
There goes Cheesy @ 10:52 with his SOP: Smear the messenger.
Cheesy, do you disagree that Grover is right about that one point? That would, you know, put you on the side of Republicans…
I can just imagine your precious little head short-circuiting right now.
Dusty
January 15th, 2013
12:48 pm
Hillbilly
I surely do agree with your Grandpa. Nobody in debt is free.
About the legislature and the hospital bed tax, I looked up the web site of the GA Dept. of Public Health. They are definitely in charge of everything medical from state sources. I think that is why Deal turned over this hospital bed tax bill to them. But they can only recommend as far as I know. I assume that it will come back to the legislature and governor as a recommendation.
I don’t see that Govl. Deal went wrong in this case. He wants a “health” opinion on a “health” tax .decision.
Kyle Wingfield
January 15th, 2013
12:51 pm
Logical @ 10:54: Um, if I were writing an article in praise of Norquist, I would probably not raise the possibility that he’s wrong about everything else. And if you think mentioning Grover’s statement is going to absolve me of any “heat” I might take, you probably also believe this is a stand-up move by the Legislature. Not so logical today, dude.
Politico
January 15th, 2013
12:54 pm
Dusty
Is Deal looking for an opinion or has he already taken action?
Kyle Wingfield
January 15th, 2013
12:55 pm
Buzzy @ 12:25: How would the Obamacare expansion of Medicaid made matters better for the state budget? The whole point of this bed-tax maneuver is that we can’t afford the Medicaid we already provide. So, the solution is … increase the amount we have to pay by a few hundred million dollars a year more?
Kyle Wingfield
January 15th, 2013
12:56 pm
Politico @ 12:41: I think the AJC has reported those stats before, but I don’t have a link handy.
md
January 15th, 2013
12:56 pm
“And if you believe that is the only reasoning that Perdue and now Deal are into this “fee” vs “tax” game, that certainly is your right to have that opinion”
Been around too long to not know how the game is played and semantics is the name of the game. I was merely stating a preference for fees as they apply to the user of said good or service which to me is the “fair” way to go about it.
Kyle Wingfield
January 15th, 2013
12:57 pm
Rafe @ 12:46: Maybe so.
Dusty
January 15th, 2013
12:58 pm
Thank you, KYLE, for the infomation.
Thank you, RAFE You are correct. I surely do not think the state is going ;to tax beds in homes. You knew exactly what I meant. I’m glad you made it clearer.
md
January 15th, 2013
1:00 pm
” The root of our problem is that Gov. Deal screwed GA out of federal money under the Affordable Care Act. As usual the Republicans want to act like a group of immature high school boys instead of facing up to reality: the Affordable Care Act is the law, and GA would be better off if it took advantage of it’s beneficial provisions.”
Now go do a real analysis and tell us how much we save or don’t save long term…….if the feds give the state $3 per patient and it costs the state $5 per patient, then long term either taxes go up or services get cut in a balanced budget state.
Dusty
January 15th, 2013
1:11 pm
Politico,
As far as I know, Deal “turned over the matter” to the Department of Community Health (or Public Health). I did not read “passed” or “presented”. I thought it was for more information in relation to hospitals and their expenses including taxes.
Why have this department if it is not used for health issues?
JamVet
January 15th, 2013
1:14 pm
And it should go without saying that, as with virtually all individual and personal taxes, the ultimate payers of the tax will be other retailers, providers of services and products and by proxy their shareholders, depending on who is easiest to pass the cost to.
So as long as were are going with the absurd, let’s make the answer as simple as we can.
Eliminate ALL taxes on everybody and everything and live happily ever after in Contopia!
Kyle Wingfield
January 15th, 2013
1:15 pm
Dusty @ 1:11: Right now, the Legislature has to approve the tax; it is up for renewal this year. Because legislators come under a lot of pressure not to be seen raising taxes, Deal has proposed that the Legislature vote to turn this particular tax over to the DCH. It has nothing to do with who has more expertise about what, but rather who is least likely to face political heat for approving a tax.
Kyle Wingfield
January 15th, 2013
1:16 pm
JamVet @ 1:14: You certainly have a gift for absurdity.
md
January 15th, 2013
1:17 pm
“And it should go without saying that, as with virtually all individual and personal taxes, the ultimate payers of the tax will be other retailers, providers of services and products and by proxy their shareholders, depending on who is easiest to pass the cost to.”
Can you name me one retailer that pays for personal taxes, I’m scratching my head on that one. And I need to go visit that retailer…….
Politico
January 15th, 2013
1:19 pm
Dusty
Unless I am reading Kyle’s article incorrectly, Deal made a decision. He is not seeking an “opinion” as you stated.
Yes, one can soundly argue that the “fee (tax)” should be under the DCH, however that is a different issue then seeking “opinion” vs making a decision to avoid having the legislature voting on a tax.
Which goes to my whole point about the “fee” issue that has become common over the last several years.
While certain “fees” surely need to be just that, others are no more than veiled “taxes” that the “core base” overall will accept vs a new tax. It is nothing more than a semantics game.
Kyle Wingfield
January 15th, 2013
1:24 pm
Politico @ 1:19: The Legislature has to pass Deal’s proposal to do this. So he’s not seeking an “opinion,” but he does need their approval.
JamVet
January 15th, 2013
1:29 pm
Just making fun of your corporatocracy nonsense, Kyle!
And other made up out of thin air GOP claptrap.
To wit, here are three of the latest counterfeit conservative theories that I’ve read on AJC forums recently.
Christianity is not a religion.
America is not a democracy.
And corporations do not pay taxes.
Yep, absurd, indeed…
Politico
January 15th, 2013
1:30 pm
Kyle
Thanks for the clarification. What do you think the chances are that the Legislature will not vote to call this a “fee” under the umbrella of the DCH vs having to call it a tax increase?
In my opinion it is a “semantics” game to get the same result, but still be able to tell the constituency that you didn’t raise taxes. I agree with you that Grover is correct in regards to the game that is being played.
Perdue did the same on several items.
It is a pansy politician’s (no matter the party) way have one’s calk and eat it too.
Just amazing how many buy into it.
Kyle Wingfield
January 15th, 2013
1:31 pm
JamVet @ 1:29: OK, so on whom does the burden of business taxes rest if not on customers, workers or owners?
Hillbilly D
January 15th, 2013
1:31 pm
It has nothing to do with who has more expertise about what, but rather who is least likely to face political heat for approving a tax.
That’s the whole crux of the matter, in one sentence.
Logical Dude
January 15th, 2013
1:32 pm
Hi Kyle: And if you think mentioning Grover’s statement is going to absolve me of any “heat” I might take, you probably also believe this is a stand-up move by the Legislature
Well, I hoped my main point you heard was that this article would have been Much More Effective if you just had written the article criticizing those responsible for these types of taxes. Using Grover as a support mechanism, and even using his name in the title, dilutes the message that you intended to make. Unless the main point of the article was ABOUT Norquist. (then I’ll admit, I read the article wrong)
Sure, his group is correct in this case, as I’m sure they are correct about many things. But they lose credibility when they try to hold a “pledge” over an oath of office.
JamVet
January 15th, 2013
1:33 pm
Kyle, the question is, how is that one bit different than the taxes levied on individuals?
Georgia, The " New Mississippi "
January 15th, 2013
1:36 pm
Kyle , after reading your article it is clear you are Pope Grover follower. This man does not live in Georgia and is not eligible to vote in Georgia. Pays no taxes in Georgia. Has not been elected to any national office by American voters. Yet , Georgia GOP Johnny Rebs fear him and sign pledges to represent his interests at the expense of the voters in their districts. I know the Georgia GOP is not loaded with intellectual heavy weights……….. But damn, do you guys possess any basic common sense ???
md
January 15th, 2013
1:42 pm
“And corporations do not pay taxes.”
Corporations pay an “expense” called “taxes”, along with other expenses called things light “power bill”, and “rent” and a host of other expenses. These expenses are then factored into the “cost of goods sold”, which is then used to set the price point for goods and services.
And who buys the goods and services?
Taxes levied on individuals are not factored into an individuals “cost of life” and passed on to another (exception may apply to ladies of the night)
Kyle Wingfield
January 15th, 2013
1:42 pm
New Miss @ 1:36: “Georgia GOP Johnny Rebs fear him and sign pledges to represent his interests at the expense of the voters in their districts.”
You have it exactly backwards. Signers of the pledge fear Grover because it carries weight with their voters. No one makes them sign it. They sign it to put an anti-tax feather in their cap come election-time … presumably because it helps them get elected … presumably because the voters believe low taxation is in their interests.
Kyle Wingfield
January 15th, 2013
1:45 pm
JamVet @ 1:33: The point is that all taxes wind up being on individuals. The ones levied directly on individuals are at least transparent about it. The rest simply allow some people to believe they’re sticking it to “the man,” or something. But usually, it just means their paychecks are smaller and the goods and services they buy are more expensive.
Cutty
January 15th, 2013
1:49 pm
Since most here hate dems so much and are so enthralled w the repub theology of fees, have fun at the toll plaza when you’re heading north on 400 this afternoon. Lemmings.
Bill Robert
January 15th, 2013
1:55 pm
Who needs Sherman when Georgian voters and politicians do such a good job burning down this state all on their own.
Georgia, The " New Mississippi "
January 15th, 2013
1:57 pm
Kyle, under 10 plus years of GOP Johnny Reb rule at the State Capitol………Georgia has all but unofficially seceded from the Union. We have hit rock bottom and have started to dig sideways.
md
January 15th, 2013
1:59 pm
Example:
Expenses
Salaries 68,250
Utilities 5,800
Rent 23,000
Office Supplies 2,250
Insurance 3,900
Advertising 8,650
Telephone 2,700
Travel and Entertainment 2,550
Dues & Subscriptions 1,100
Interest Paid 2,140
Repairs & Maintenance 1,250
Taxes & Licenses 11,700
Total Expenses 133,290
All “costs” that will be factored into the price of goods. If they are not factored into the price of goods then that company will go bye bye before too long.
Corporations do not pay taxes, consumers do.
Junior Samples
January 15th, 2013
2:09 pm
Kyle, I agree.
They’ve cut until they can cut no more.
Now they need to increase revenue (taxes), but just can’t bring it upon themselves to do it.
Enter stage left, the DHC.
Buck passed.
Cletus
January 15th, 2013
2:10 pm
We get so worked up about the taxes we can see, like this bed tax. Hardly anyone talks about the ones we mostly don’t see.
You want a real eye-opener, check out IRS Publication 510 for a look-see at the many things that are covered by federal excise tax. And that doesn’t include state excise taxes.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
January 15th, 2013
2:11 pm
Well, if we haven’t just turned jamvet’s world all topsy turvy – all these years thinking his beloved government was stickin it to the Man and now he finds out his beloved government’s been stickin it to…………………….him.
Priceless.
JDW
January 15th, 2013
2:16 pm
@Kyle…”Signers of the pledge fear Grover because it carries weight with their voters.”
Well there is also the little matter of the millions and millions and millions of dollars Grover will spend to make sure that the voters…particularly those primary voters Republicans fear so much…just happen to have the viewing pleasure of a smear campaign foisted upon anyone with the temerity to honor their inauguration oath rather than “The Pledge”.
Dusty
January 15th, 2013
2:23 pm
Well, I guess I still have a little faith in the integrity of our state government. It is so easy to condemn them when we are not in their “shoes” making difficult decisions in difficult times.
Governor Deal asked for info from a state department and he is condemned. I suppose he should stand before the legislature and say “I have decided you should do this.”. NO recommenations. No referenes. Just “Here it is.”
Deal is an intelligent man and knows better. No matter what you think about Gov. Deal, he has never been convicted of anything. Nothing. But you judge a man guilty before there is even a crime or what others have done. Shame!
Anyway, no one is fooled about taxes. (as Kyle said @1:45).. The word TAX is synonymous with out of pocket expense for the individual. When it becomes unfair, we complain. But let us be sure we complain about the right people, whether they be the tax writers or the spenders that squander and demand more.
———
No more “preachin” from me. A’bientot.. ..
Politico
January 15th, 2013
2:30 pm
“No more “preachin” from me. A’bientot.. ..”
Not intended to be a factual statement, but do have a great afternoon
MarkV
January 15th, 2013
2:32 pm
I have found an excellent reason why NOT to lower the national debt: It would deprive Dusty of her favorite complaint.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
January 15th, 2013
2:53 pm
One can find no more conclusive evidence of a liberal’s disdain for knowledge then looking at their phony and mindless crusade against Big Oil. And knowing that the government plays on the conceived ignorance to it’s own benefit. Who could possibly be against the internal combustion engine? That’s like saying you don’t need teeth, which, of course, many liberals do. But anyway, the politicians seized upon the liberals apparent fright of these noisy and smoky machines that also dumbfounded them, much like the solar eclipses caused indigent tribesman to run shrieking into the jungles, by heaping much regulation upon the fuel that they ran on, increasing it’s cost and thereby enlarging it’s tax base. And then the senseless liberals became enraged at Big Oil for raising the price of their products!!!! And they formed a mob, which increased their anger and lowered their IQ, and went to babbling about “obscene profits.” The dummycrat politicians, always eager to play upon their voting base’s stupidity, criss crossed the country whining and moaning about “windfall tax breaks.” This caused our mob to become Very Angry and they slung arrows at their smiling politicians to Take Away Those Tax Breaks. And the smiling politician did Take Away Those Tax Breaks.
Meanwhile, back on Earth, the accountant for the Big Oil Company, upon learning that there were no more tax breaks to be had, called corporate headquarters and told them to raise the price of their products to recover this lost revenue. And up went the cost of a gallon of gasoline.
And the liberal mob became Smug and Contented and lived happily ever after, paying about $1.50 a gallon than they should be.
Can I get a duh?
JamVet
January 15th, 2013
2:55 pm
Asop, I am shocked.
It took you 26 minutes to come to Ky’e’s defense!
Unacceptable!
You’re slippin’, troll…
BW
January 15th, 2013
3:11 pm
Kyle
What is the funding shortfall if the tax is not renewed?
@@
January 15th, 2013
3:33 pm
Everyone has their own “special” way of paying it forward. It’s all about the blame game. When the cost goes up they can blame the hospitals.
So let’s see…
Grady Memorial Hospital, a safety net hospital in downtown Atlanta, received nearly $10 million as a result of the provider fee in fiscal 2011.
Hospitals with relatively small numbers of low-income patients, however, lose money. Piedmont Hospital in Buckhead, where less than 3 percent of its patients are on Medicaid, took the biggest hit in 2011, losing $6.4 million.
Location, location, location. That’s some ’spensive real estate on Jesse Hill Jr. Drive.
Does our government ever think about paying it down–the debt?
JamVet
January 15th, 2013
3:39 pm
The point is that all taxes wind up being on individuals.
Whoa there, cowboy!
Aren’t corporations people too, my friend?
The ones levied directly on individuals are at least transparent about it.
Please tell me you have something more than that to support your argument that corporations should pay no taxes.
It seems to me that it is entirely reasonable that we make companies that report massive, billion dollar annual profits, but don’t contribute a dime of federal income tax to the country that provides them with resources, public services and infrastructure to conduct business, put some skin into the game. But hey, maybe I’m just an adherent of actual capitalism…
SB Atl
January 15th, 2013
4:09 pm
Grover should know. He’s really good at passing the buck when it suits him.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
January 15th, 2013
4:22 pm
If you don’t like Grover, don’t vote for him.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
January 15th, 2013
5:19 pm
A quarter of a million people in thirty days have signed up for new NRA memberships ahead of the White House Task Force’s findings
Any questions?
JamVet
January 15th, 2013
5:25 pm
A quarter of a million people in thirty days have signed up for new NRA memberships ahead of the White House Task Force’s findings
No questions but it sure reminds me a whole lot of:
KKK Membership Up Since Obama Election
Not unexpectedly, KKK membership is up since Barack Obama’s win. Former Imperial Wizard Johnny Lee Clary, now an outspoken critic of the Klan, said the difficult economic times and Obama’s win both contribute to a rise in Klan membership.
At a recent rally in Alabama, 300 people signed up. Clary called that “unprecedented.”
“They (KKK) actually sent me an email just the other day and were telling me that Barack Obama was the best thing that ever happened to them and they’re excited and happy because their membership is growing larger than it ever has,” Clary said.
Clary said that in these economic times the Klan finds “the poor, the miserable, the down and out” as easy targets for recruitment.
Birds of an ODS feather…
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
January 15th, 2013
5:31 pm
300 versus a quarter of a million, I rest my case.
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
January 15th, 2013
5:44 pm
Obama, the man is just a stimulater !!!
Rafe Hollister preparing for an Obamanist America
January 15th, 2013
5:47 pm
It would be easier to teach a mule to water ski, than to teach Jamvet about democracy and the unintended consequences of raising corporate taxes.
md
January 15th, 2013
6:05 pm
“It seems to me that it is entirely reasonable that we make companies that report massive, billion dollar annual profits, but don’t contribute a dime of federal income tax to the country that provides them with resources, public services and infrastructure to conduct business, put some skin into the game.”
Hmmm…..and the country that provided those resources got the money from where?
Horse then cart, not the other way around.
md
January 15th, 2013
6:08 pm
Am, you need to remember that those corps produce ALL the capital to run the system. Our benevolent gov’t can’t do a dang thing until those evil corps first generate the capital and then distribute it to the masses in the form of paychecks. Then our almighty gov’t does what it does best….spend it.
JamVet
January 15th, 2013
6:26 pm
md, why do you plead on behalf of the monied moocher class?
Kyle Wingfield
January 15th, 2013
6:27 pm
That’s all for tonight. Immediate commenting will be back on tomorrow morning.
Shine
January 15th, 2013
6:28 pm
Grover who? Does that psycho even live in Ga?
md
January 15th, 2013
6:31 pm
Plead? Merely laying out the facts of how our system works………
If one is calling for a tax hike in corp taxes, one is basically calling for an increase in the price of goods/services, a reduction in shareholder (401k) value, or a decrease/non-increase in employee wages as those are the effects of a higher corp tax.
Want higher wages, stronger 401k’s, or cheaper goods? Then a call for a corp tax reduction…….
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
January 15th, 2013
9:58 pm
JamVet: the monied moocher class
——————-
Don’t hate people who are better than you and who are paying their share, and most of yours, of the country’s bills.
saywhat?
January 16th, 2013
8:40 am
Kyle Wingfield
January 15th, 2013
12:38 pm
Dusty @ 10:41: It is a tax on hospitals. You do not need to worry about how many beds you have at your house.
——————————————————-
ROFLMAO. To paraphrase Barney Frank, trying to have a conversation with some people on this blog would be like arguing with a dining room table.
BW
January 16th, 2013
11:12 am
Kyle
Up to a $500 million hole that forces up to 15 hospitals to close….I’m not sure if you support the funding or not but I can’t see how it’s a good thing to allow this to happen
Kyle Wingfield
January 16th, 2013
12:05 pm
Immediate commenting is back on and there’s a new post upstairs.
independent thinker
January 16th, 2013
9:07 pm
THis is hysterical! The patron saint of conservative republicans Reagan passes a federal law in 1986 that is pure socialism which requires all hospitals to provide free health care in emergency rooms to any soul who makes into an emergency room until medically stabilized regardless of insurance, citizenship, etc.NO FUNDING SOURCE for this socialistic take from the insured and rich program called EMTALA designed by Reagan. Results- a huge deficit for many hospitals.
Then along comes a moderate Republican in 2006 passes universal health care with massively increased federal Medicaid dollars and individual responsibility/mandates for insurance to cover Massachusett’s EMTALA created deficit for hospital care. However this moderate Republican becomes like the patron saint, “severely conservative” after getting nominated for the presidency and disowns and disavows his own solution to hospital deficits.
Now a severely conservative Governor in Georgia proposes a tax on income producing beds in hospitals to somehow gin up more federal dollars and again tax those with insurance and those who can afford to pay. Again this is more socialism and taxation of innocent patients and their insurers.
Same governor turns down excess Medicaid like Romney did in Massachusetts but wants to use this highly controversial tax to trick the feds into paying more along with insurers to cover the Reagan created unfunded mandate.
So now who comes along screaming violation of conservative Republican principles??????????-good ole Grover Norquist -savior of the party!.
Hey Grover -cut EMTALA and throw the bums out on the street-end Republican socialism now! Expose Nathan Deal as a closet socialist!
What a bunch of hypocrites!