WSJ: Bed tax in states such as Georgia is ‘fraud’
Note to Georgia Republicans: Not everyone on the right is convinced that saying “But, the hospitals asked us to tax, er, fee them!” justifies the Medicaid bed tax, er, assessment fee passed two years ago and possibly up for renewal in next year’s legislative session.
In fact, the editorial page of the Wall Street Journal suggests this bed tax, er, assessment fee is ripe for elimination if President Obama and Congress are serious about even modest reforms to entitlement programs. From an editorial today:
A deal also ought to end the long-running “bed tax” scam in which states charge hospitals a fee to increase health-care spending and thus their federal matching rate. Then they launder some of the money back to the hospitals to offset the fee. This is real waste, fraud and abuse, not the talking-point version.
Who in the General Assembly will carry the bill to renew the tax, er, fee and explain why it’s not a “scam” that’s “real waste, fraud and abuse, not the talking-point version”?
– By Kyle Wingfield
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154 comments Add your comment
JDW
December 3rd, 2012
3:27 pm
@LBB…”Think before posting, JDW.”
Now for this horse nugget….
“Stating wages as a percent of GDP over time is meaningless, and in fact could be quite misleading. For illustration, consider a worker who triples his output and gets a 100% raise–his wages as a percent of output dropped, while in absolute terms they doubled.”
Indeed had US output tripled and wages doubled you might have a point but as you well know that is not the case. In fact what has happened is real wages have remained stagnant over the last 30 years of Repugnican Supply Side nonsense and have now reached a historic low as a percentage of GDP.
In fact if you take a look at the history of the number you will find that it has been steadily declining for the last 30 years with the exception of the mid to late 90’s…coincidence? I think not.
Relevant…hell yes.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=2Xa
JDW
December 3rd, 2012
3:31 pm
@Tiberius…
Investment-the outlay of money usually for income or profit
Notice it says nothing about control or inheritance…you added that part not Webster.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
December 3rd, 2012
3:37 pm
Somebody obviously doesn’t know what “for illustration” means…
Unrefuted is my explanation that stating wages as a percent of GDP is meaningless at best, and (perhaps intentionally) misleading.
JDW
December 3rd, 2012
3:44 pm
@LBB…”Unrefuted is my explanation that stating wages as a percent of GDP is meaningless at best, and (perhaps intentionally) misleading.”
No LBB, that is not an explanation, you have an opinion to which you are entitled but with which the majority of people, including statisticians and economists do not agree.
Numbers on the economy expressed, as a percentage of the GDP are quite relevant because they are the only statistic that show the true gain of a particular GDP component. The only people that argue such facts are those that wish to ignore the reality of the situation.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
December 3rd, 2012
3:46 pm
John Q, get it through your thick head – LBB and I are two very different posters, both in beliefs and mannerisms.
Of course, given your inability to understand the English language, it is understandable that you cannot tell the difference.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
December 3rd, 2012
3:48 pm
“Notice it says nothing about control or inheritance…you added that part not Webster.”
So I’m guessing, JDW, that all of your “investments”, whether pubic or private, are all forfeit to the government in their entirety when you die?
Thanks for not playing. Or understanding English and common sense.
JDW
December 3rd, 2012
3:54 pm
@Tiberius…”So I’m guessing, JDW, that all of your “investments”, whether pubic or private, are all forfeit to the government in their entirety when you die?”
I am guessing that you have trouble reading and grasping the simple definition of a word like investment. There are a number so such cash flow are annuity investments available in the market today that end upon the death of the investor. But, of course, you wouldn’t know that.
Additionally what you also seem to overlook is that both your minor dependants and spouse are entitled to your Social Security benefits upon your death if the conditions are met.
Yet again you show your complete and utter ignorance of most things.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
December 3rd, 2012
3:56 pm
JDW: Numbers on the economy expressed, as a percentage of the GDP are quite relevant
——-
Some numbers, yes. Just not the one you brought up.
One might try what you did if one were trying to give a false impression.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
December 3rd, 2012
3:59 pm
Nice cherry-picking, JDW.
Except the GOVERNMENT gets to pick the conditions and amounts of the continuation of benefits (if any), NOT YOU.
Another epic fail on your part, sonny.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
December 3rd, 2012
4:14 pm
“There are a number so such cash flow are annuity investments available in the market today that end upon the death of the investor.”
And btw, the investor has a choice as to whether he or she wants to invest in those products, JDW.
Social Security and Medicare? Not so much.
Because they are NOT investments, but government programs designed to increase dependency on government.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
December 3rd, 2012
4:25 pm
The welfare that is sucking the life out of this country is corporate welfare, and the lowering of taxes on the wealthiest to the point where all of the money is funneled up and the ranks of the poor increase, the middle class shrinks.
———–
Perhaps one day a prog will explain how lowering taxes on everyone, and completely removing 50% of us from the federal income tax rolls “funnels money” from the poor to the rich.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
December 3rd, 2012
4:27 pm
Anyone who thinks SS is an investment is a real tool.
yuzeyurbrane
December 3rd, 2012
4:36 pm
Kyle, one person who is more pragmatic than you on this topic is State House Speaker Ralston. Call it whatever name you want but the fact is this creative financing tactic keeps a lot of hospitals open, especially in rural areas at very little cost to state budget. I would prefer if we could just finance such hospitals out in the open but let’s face it, creative financing is something used regularly by all sorts of entities including the uber-wealthy with the help of their high-powered CPA’s and tax lawyers. At least this is adding to the public good.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
December 3rd, 2012
4:38 pm
John Q – lovin’ livin’ in the Obama boom!!!
December 3rd, 2012
4:33 pm
The Tiberius/Lil Bar sock puppet is evidently also a jester
Kyle – I thought calling other bloggers names was against your stated rules of conduct?
JDW
December 3rd, 2012
4:40 pm
@Tiberius…”Because they are NOT investments, but government programs designed to increase dependency on government.”
Rigggghhhhhtttt and I guess the little green men you talk to in your tinfoil hat told you so?
Rocky
December 3rd, 2012
4:42 pm
Regardless of the rules, if namecalling got you banned each time it was done, Kyle would lose half his regulars.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
December 3rd, 2012
4:45 pm
Oh yeah, and the “Obama Boom -”
- Another US business fires all it’s workers and slams the doors shut.
- A fresh pallet of Food Stamps hits the floor of the delivery truck.
- Your local hospital’s waiting room collapses from over crowding.
- All the new IRS regulations causes the printing press to explode.
yuzeyurbrane
December 3rd, 2012
4:46 pm
L’il Barry–simple. Now follow this. President X and his party reduce taxes on their supporters over $4 trillion, mostly benefiting the top 2%. Then they lead us into an expensive war costing over $1 trillion and they charge it rather than asking their supporters to pay for it. They plan to further reduce tax rates on their supporters so that when the credit card bill comes due, it is paid more by the middle class than it would have otherwise been if we just were taxed at the time of the war. The poor are poor and that is punishment in itself but they, too, will probably pay more when the credit card bill comes due through a proposed flat income tax plus wildly rising user fees and sales taxes plus cuts in benefits that make it possible to survive. Have you heard of balancing the budget on the backs of the poor and elderly? To that I would most definitely add the shrinking middle class which gets screwed in any event.
ODD OWL
December 3rd, 2012
4:48 pm
Middle class Republicans can come up with all kinds of lame excuses to justify cutting taxes on the richest 2% or attempting to block increases in taxes on the rich, elite Koch Bros. types… Question ??? Are middle class Republicans in favor of their taxes going back up to 39% or do you support president Obama’s plan to keep taxes at the present level on the 98% of middle class and non rich Americans ???
Hillbilly D
December 3rd, 2012
4:48 pm
Regardless of the rules, if name-calling got you banned each time it was done, Kyle would lose half his regulars.
Would that be such a bad thing?
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
December 3rd, 2012
4:50 pm
John Q – Why do you feel the need to lawyer up?
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
December 3rd, 2012
4:52 pm
What would a lib know about profits?
yuzeyurbrane
December 3rd, 2012
4:53 pm
Tiberius—you fail to mention that SS is about the equivalent of a $650,000 fixed annuity, has a better rate of return and is less risky in its investments. Sounds like a good deal to me. Only problem is that there are a lot of free-loading rich folks who don’t pay FICA taxes on salaries above $110,000 or because, like Mitt Romney, almost all their income is from interest and dividends and therefore subject to no FICA tax at all. How about a flat FICA tax on all income?
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
December 3rd, 2012
5:00 pm
John Q – What are you talking about, mam?
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
December 3rd, 2012
5:12 pm
yuzeyurbrane: when the credit card bill comes due, it is paid more by the middle class than it would have otherwise…The poor…will probably pay more when the credit card bill comes due through a proposed flat income tax…Have you heard of balancing the budget on the backs of the poor and elderly?
————————–
There’s just one problem with your explanation–none of that has happened.
Anyone else want to try?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
December 3rd, 2012
5:31 pm
“Rigggghhhhhtttt and I guess the little green men you talk to in your tinfoil hat told you so?”
No, JDW, the politicians on the LEFT who run campaigns which attack conservatives for “wanting to take away your Social Security” in every election proves that it isn’t an investment, but a government program intended to make you dependent on government.
It’s called reality, sonny. You should try it sometime.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
December 3rd, 2012
5:32 pm
“Tiberius—you fail to mention that SS is about the equivalent of a $650,000 fixed annuity, has a better rate of return and is less risky in its investments.”
Actually, yuz, it isn’t a very good investment at all. I suggest you research Galveston County, TX retirement programs to enlighten yourself.
Dusty
December 3rd, 2012
5:38 pm
Hillbilly, @4:48
You usually make me smile. And..to answer your question: It would be better to rid this blog of name-callers by any way possible since they cannot control themselves. They seem to ignore the subject de jour just to get in derogatory remarks.
Most of them are liberals as you can tell by their own confessions.
Kyle is such a believer in free speech. He seldom rids himself of the buzz flies here. Maybe that is good in the sense that even gadflies have rights and we respect those rights if not the person.
————————
As to the SUBJECT, doctors and ERs send most of the patients to be admitted. Hospitals take the patients that come to them. How can hospitals control the number of Medicaid patients in any way? Or why should they be punished financially for those that do not come to them?
saywhat?
December 3rd, 2012
6:19 pm
So Kyle, is this any different ethically than a direct “tax credit” from the state government which indivuals then spend on private school tuition?
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
December 3rd, 2012
6:23 pm
…is this any different ethically…
——————-
Yes. Tax credits for school choice are out in the open and transparent. Bed taxes are fraud.
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
December 3rd, 2012
6:26 pm
LOL…speaking of fraud, just saw a “man on the street” with someone who had just applied for home heating assistance. She said it was a great deal because “it’s $350 you can use for something else”.
Huh. I thought it was to pay for heating for folks that didn’t have $350.
Scumbag. Wonder who she voted for.
JDW
December 3rd, 2012
6:27 pm
@Tiberius…”the politicians on the LEFT who run campaigns which attack conservatives for “wanting to take away your Social Security” in every election proves that it isn’t an investment, but a government program ”
Only thing that proves is that some of the politicians on the right are out of touch welchers
md
December 3rd, 2012
6:40 pm
“The fee is designed to help level the financial playing field among hospitals, since Medicaid pays less than what it costs to treat patients covered by the plan.”
Seems to me the taxpayer is the one that loses either way. Get matching funds from the feds and it has to come from us through increased federal taxes/fees/borrowing.
Stop the bed tax, and the funds have to come from the State to fund medicaid, and being a balanced budget state, again it will have to come from somewhere…..higher taxes/fees on state income or cuts in spending on other programs.
Pick your poison folks if you want the programs………and no, voting for your neighbor to pay is not a long term solution.
saywhat?
December 3rd, 2012
6:40 pm
To answer Kyle’s question, no the bed tax is not fraud or abuse. It can appear that way, because of the source of money from the initial tax, i.e. hospitals, who also stand to possibly benefit from the matching funds. The thing which makes it NOT a scam is that the money is not directed back to the hospitals in the proportion which is taken. Instead it is distributed based on provision of qualifying services.
If the tax were collected from garbage collection services, or financial transactions, or money taken directly from the states general fund (or anything not related to healthcare), then pooled with matching federal money and distributed to the hospitals/doctors that provided the requisite services, the appearance of a scam would dissappear.
The bed tax is simply that, a tax, paid for by Georgia citizens who are patients, and their insurance companies. The funds generated by that tax are directed toward Medicaid. The source of the tax money is not relevant to the equation, except for those paying it.
ODD OWL
December 3rd, 2012
6:42 pm
The Republican politicians are the perpetrators of fraud… The middle class people who vote for them are dupes… President Obama cut the S.S. payroll FICA tax by 5%… If the Boehner/McConnell shyster Republicans don’t agree to tax increases on the richest 2%, the Obama tax cut on FICA will expire on January 1, 2013
md
December 3rd, 2012
6:43 pm
And the ongoing debate about earnings and wages as a percentage of gdp is bogus….not enough info as to where the profits are going.
Capital expenditures? Cash reserves? Dividends for our 401k’s? etc, etc
Folks need to remember that corps have to stockpile cash in bad times as they don’t get to rob peter to restock the cupboard when it runs dry……they just go bye, bye…..have a Twinkie and think about it.
md
December 3rd, 2012
6:47 pm
And for those that didn’t read the ajc link, the bed tax is a bit like any other socialistic program…..it takes from some hospitals and gives to others, seemingly based on location and clientele…..
Lil' Barry Bailout - OBAMAPHONE!!!
December 3rd, 2012
6:48 pm
ODD OWL: If the Boehner/McConnell shyster Republicans don’t agree to tax increases on the richest 2%, the Obama tax cut on FICA will expire on January 1, 2013
———————–
Good. SS taxes are how we fund SS. How do you propose to pay for SS if the tax cut remains in place?
saywhat?
December 3rd, 2012
6:48 pm
lil bush receptacle: “Tax credits for school choice are out in the open and transparent.”
___________________________________________________________________
You fail again, but you are used to it. These tax credits in Georgia are specifically NOT transparent and in the open. The state is FORBIDDEN BY LAW from monitoring or maintaining records of the schools or students who benefit from them. (Just a tip: Our President Obama had nothing to do with this Republican scam.)
md
December 3rd, 2012
6:49 pm
And for those on the left, it’s what your entire ideology is based on, so I’m not quite too sure why some of you object to the practice……
saywhat?
December 3rd, 2012
6:56 pm
“And for those that didn’t read the ajc link, the bed tax is a bit like any other socialistic program…..it takes from some hospitals and gives to others, seemingly based on location and clientele…..”
————————————————————–
Medicaid money is distributed based on provision of services to Medicaid patients. Do you want Medicaid money going to hospitals that DON’T provide services to Medicaid patients? If hosiptals want more of that money, they can market their services to Medicaid patients. Besides, according to conservative dogma, the hospitals don’t REALLY pay the bed fee, their customers do, right? So why are the hospitals complaining?
ODD OWL
December 3rd, 2012
6:59 pm
The hospital bed tax is just another stupid Republican gimmick to raise taxes on the middle class and working class people… Taxes never go down… They get shifted around from the backs of the rich, onto the backs of the non rich… When are you non rich Republicans going to start criticising Nathan “No” Deal and the Republicans who control the state legislature about the astronomically high (10%) unemployment rate in Georgia ??? Jenkins County has the highest unemployment rate in the state at 16.9 %… The Georgia unemployment rate has been above 8% for the 10 years the Republicans have held the Governor’s office and controlled the state legislature… Republicans are a miserable failure…
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
December 3rd, 2012
7:00 pm
(Reuters) – The Internal Revenue Service has released new rules for investment income taxes on capital gains and dividends earned by high-income individuals that passed Congress as part of the 2010 healthcare reform law. The 3.8 percent surtax on investment income, meant to help pay for healthcare, goes into effect in 2013. It is the first surtax to be applied to capital gains and dividend income.
And they want more.
md
December 3rd, 2012
7:07 pm
“Do you want Medicaid money going to hospitals that DON’T provide services to Medicaid patients?”
Merely pointing out that it is those hospitals/patients that are doing the paying……..I’m guessing that is “fair” by the definition I see on here every day. In other words, others paying the freight as usual.
md
December 3rd, 2012
7:09 pm
“The hospital bed tax is just another stupid Republican gimmick to raise taxes on the middle class and working class people… Taxes never go down… They get shifted around from the backs of the rich, onto the backs of the non rich… ”
Obviously didn’t read the other link…..the bed tax takes from the “rich” folks hospitals and gives to the “poor” folks hospitals…….and lordy the complaining is still there.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
December 3rd, 2012
7:13 pm
When Abraham Lincoln created the Republican Party and freed the slaves, the libs hated him for it. To them, slavery was AWESOME, they could make somebody else tend to their responsibilities while they laid about the plantation, contributing nothing to their own welfare. Somethings never change, do they?
So the libs set about trying to destroy Lincoln’s legacy, they called him gay, said that the Civil War was NOT FOUGHT OVER SLAVERY, blah, blah, blah.
But this smear campaign failed miserably, after all, there are no videos of the Emancipation Proclamation for these filthy people to doctor up.
So now, having been beaten back like rabid dogs -
‘GODFATHER’ LIKENS OBAMA TO LINCOLN…
You gotta admit, these maggots never give up….
Hillbilly D
December 3rd, 2012
7:16 pm
When Abraham Lincoln created the Republican Party and freed the slaves,
Just in the interest of historical accuracy, Abe never freed a single slave. He didn’t actually start the Republican Party, either.
Aesop's Fables and other Lib Economic Theories
December 3rd, 2012
7:35 pm
The Republican Party first came to power in 1860 with the election of Lincoln to the Presidency and Republicans in control of Congress and again, the Northern states. It oversaw the saving of the union, the end of slavery, and the provision of equal rights to all men in the American Civil War and Reconstruction, 1861-1877.
Go forth and be educated.
Hillbilly D
December 3rd, 2012
7:39 pm
Aesop
The Republican Party was formed in 1864 and the slaves were freed in December of 1865.
Hillbilly D
December 3rd, 2012
7:39 pm
Make that the Republican party was formed in 1854 (typo).