Tackling some more false claims about the charter school amendment
(Note: The Rev. Joseph Lowery isn’t the only person making dubious claims about the charter schools amendment. I wrote about some other misleading and/or false claims in my Thursday column in the AJC’s print edition. While we’ve covered some of these items in previous comment threads, I almost always try to post my print columns here.)
Georgia offers few election surprises this year. Mitt Romney will take our electoral votes, there are no races for U.S. senator or any of the state’s constitutional officers, and just one U.S. House race — Georgia’s 12th District, where incumbent Democrat John Barrow is trying to fend off Republican Lee Anderson — is competitive.
The only exception is the charter-schools amendment referendum.
There’s been little public-opinion polling about the amendment, which if passed would affirm the state’s role in creating charter schools. But the polling we have suggests a tight race.
How to account for this tightness, given the amendment won the backing of two-thirds of the Legislature and the governor, and addresses a public-education system that Georgians have long considered sub-par? Based on responses I’ve received to columns and blog posts I’ve written about the amendment, I believe the race is so tight because opponents have fed Georgians some misleading, even patently false, notions.
Today, I’m tackling some of the worst of them.
Claim 1: State charter schools are private schools.
This is patently false. Charter schools require government approval and receive public funding.
Claim 2: Unlike traditional public schools, state charter schools can select their students.
False. State law requires charter schools to admit all applicants unless there are too many applicants. In that case, the students must be chosen at random: through a lottery, for example. Neither Amendment One nor its accompanying legislation, HB 797, changes this.
Claim 3: State charter schools don’t have to give the same standardized tests as public schools.
False. State law says charter schools must annually report “state academic accountability data, such as standardized test scores and adequate yearly progress.” If anything, charter schools may be held to a higher standard as a condition of the increased flexibility they receive. Again, HB 797 does not change this.
Claim 4: State charter schools do not perform better than traditional public schools.
While we don’t have a long history of results for making such a comparison, the data we do have indicate this is false. As I reported in a previous column, tThe Governor’s Office of Student Achievement found that, in the most recent year available, 75 percent of state charter schools made adequate yearly progress (AYP) as required by the federal No Child Left Behind Law. Only 67 percent of traditional public schools in the same districts — the most relevant comparison — made AYP.
Claims 5 and 6: This amendment a) is redundant and b) would expand government.
These contradictory claims are both wrong. The redundancy claim rests on the argument that, because the state school board can authorize charter schools, we don’t need a state commission to do so. But the reasoning in the 2011 Supreme Court ruling, which threw out the old state commission and prompted this amendment, leaves no room for the state to approve charter schools. This state school board power relies on the good will of the same local districts that sued to overturn the old state commission and are opposing this amendment; I doubt such good will exists. The amendment is needed to affirm this state authority.
If you do buy the idea the state school board could continue to authorize charter schools despite the court ruling, you can’t very well argue the re-created state commission would represent an expansion of government.
Claim 7: Allowing the state to authorize charter schools would represent a centralization of power.
The opposite is true. Local districts would still have the power to create charter schools. This would grant the state the same power. That’s less concentration of power. That’s decentralization.
Claim 8: All we need is an appeals process.
Essentially, that’s all we’d get. HB 797 says the state can create charter schools to serve the entire state (think online learning) or to serve a specific district. In the latter case, the law says the state can act only after the locals have already declined a charter application. That is an appeals process.
– By Kyle Wingfield
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
121 comments Add your comment
commoncents
November 2nd, 2012
1:20 pm
First!
And vote “yes”
carlosgvv
November 2nd, 2012
1:38 pm
Claim 9 – The Koch brothers are pouring money into this battle in hopes of getting the Charter ammendment passed. They, and other extreme right conservatives want Georgia filled with school boards made up of fundamentalist parents who will demand the teaching of creationism and the denouncing of science.
True
Matz
November 2nd, 2012
1:39 pm
Claim 10: After a decade of cutting the education budget year after year, demanding that teachers do more and more with less and less, the Republicans who run this state woke up one day last year and suddenly realized they give a darn about educating our children.
Sure they did. It’s totally plausible. Just like the Grinch, whose heart grew three sizes in one shining epiphany, they realized that an educated populace is preferable to an ignorant, republican-voting populace, and turned from the error of their ways. Happens all the time. Really!
Aquagirl
November 2nd, 2012
1:44 pm
This would grant the state the same power. That’s less concentration of power. That’s decentralization.
Nothing like a little humor to break the pre-election tension.
Matz
November 2nd, 2012
1:49 pm
How does an appointed board that answers to no voter = “less concentration of power?” I mean, in a world where we’re NOT all gullible rubes, that is?
Rush
November 2nd, 2012
1:49 pm
Those evil Koch brothers actually expressing their rights to freely give to a cause they support….the humanity of that. Don’t they know carlos is going to blow a gasket over this.
Rush
November 2nd, 2012
1:51 pm
watergirl:
Do you really enjoy hanging out on Kyle’s blog waiting for a new topic to pontificate upon?
Rush
November 2nd, 2012
1:52 pm
Barack is the best…..that is rich. Tell us more.
Mr_B
November 2nd, 2012
1:53 pm
Claim 2: Unlike traditional public schools, state charter schools can select their students.
But they can (and do) deselect those students who prove difficult and need more intensive instruction.
Claim 3: State charter schools don’t have to give the same standardized tests as public schools.
But no statement about which standardized test. Ga EOCTs? CRCTs? GaHSGTW?
And they “may”be held to any standard, I’d like to know which one before I made a choice.
“Claim 4: State charter schools do not perform better than traditional public schools.
While we don’t have a long history of results for making such a comparison”
No, we in Georgia don’t, but the data from other states doesn’t show any better performance for charter vs. traditional schools.
,
Mr_B
November 2nd, 2012
1:55 pm
Kyle, do you own stock in any of the out-of-state for profit education companies that are bankrolling this monstrosity
Whatever
November 2nd, 2012
1:55 pm
This is a joke. I’m against this amendment because I have a way to have charter schools now….locally. It’s called the board of education. If I don’t like the way they vote I can vote them out. I cannot vote out this “appointed” board at the state.
No thanks!
Aquagirl
November 2nd, 2012
2:02 pm
Do you really enjoy hanging out on Kyle’s blog waiting for a new topic to pontificate upon?
Actually I was gone for quite a while after irritating someone enough to namejack me. So the answer is “no.” I don’t seem to have the same emotional investment as some folks.
BTW I don’t mind being called watergirl or whatever but Kyle makes a frowny face at mangling names. I think some of the regulars here freaked out about it so last I heard it’s a rather non-intuitive house rule, which is posted (appropriately) on the right.
Also, if you’re posting every two minutes I’m not sure you should imply anyone else is “hanging around” here too much.
Matz
November 2nd, 2012
2:03 pm
Claim 11: Those Koch brothers are actually expressing their rights to freely give to a cause they support — OUT OF THE GOODNESS OF THEIR HEARTS, because even though they don’t live here or have children in public schools here, THEY CARE DEEPLY about the poor kids in rural Georgia, and are pouring cash into this cause EXPECTING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN RETURN.
Sure they are. Despite “charter school prodcuts” becoming a profitable commodity on Wall Street, there is no profit motive for those donating out-of-state cash to pay the telemarketers calling your house. If you live on “bloo-sheet mountain,” this is totally true. If you live in Georgia… ehhhh… not so much.
Vote Yes
November 2nd, 2012
2:06 pm
SANDERSON,FREDERICK C SUPERINTENDENT $259,805.57
JONES,PHYLLIS A PRINCIPAL $142,992.62 $0.00
DUNNIGAN,DONALD E PERSONNEL/HUMAN RESO $134,449.46
JONES,JUDITH A DEPUTY/ASSOC/ASSISTA $134,449.46
WHITT,JACQUELYN PRINCIPAL $134,387.25
ADDISON,JACK M FINANCE/BUSINESS SER $132,596.83
THOMAS,PATRICIA L PRINCIPAL $131,129.42
RAGSDALE,CHRISTOPHER G DEPUTY/ASSOC/ASSISTA $127,409.42
MILLS,JOAN C PRINCIPAL $126,666.11
POOR,TERRY HICKS PRINCIPAL $124,451.79
STOUDER,ALICE W DEPUTY/ASSOC/ASSISTA $123,080.94
GREEN,DONNA S INSTRUCTIONAL SUPERV $121,757.70
SHEPARD,DOUGLAS E DEPUTY/ASSOC/ASSISTA $119,562.46
BELLAIR,ELISE J INSTRUCTIONAL SUPERV $117,837.75
MARTIN,PEGGY L PRINCIPAL $115,209.50
CARTER,JAMES D DEPUTY/ASSOC/ASSISTA $114,606.78
DAVIDSON,U S DIRECTOR OF CURRICUL $114,068.10
MULLIS,MICHAEL A FINANCE/BUSINESS SER $113,687.87
STOWERS,CHARLOTTE PRINCIPAL $112,899.98
GADDIS,DALE E DEPUTY/ASSOC/ASSISTA $112,679.04
etc, etc, etc
—————————–
This is why educators and administrators are scared of this!
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
November 2nd, 2012
2:07 pm
Sorry, this is off topic but what on earth are you Cons up to now?
George W. Bush gave the keynote address at an “investment conference” in the Cayman Islands on Thursday night. But we don’t know what he said, reports NBC News, because Bush’s own team required a complete “blackout” on any details about the speech.
The keynote speech by the former president was “totally closed to all journalists,” and conference organizers were banned from discussing any aspect of it even in general terms, spokesman Dan Kneipp said.
salon.com
Conservatives are the sleazeballs of the earth.
roswell mom
November 2nd, 2012
2:11 pm
Having multiple government agencies being able to create charter schools sounds inefficient at best. Let’s have state and local building permits – if you can’t get a permit from your local government, you can ask the state. We could have state and local agencies for putting up traffic lights and stop signs. If your local governent won’t put up that sign you want, you can go ask the state and see if they’ll do it. Along this same logic, let’s have the Federal government replicate things the state does – it’s just “decentralization” of government. If I can’t get a state of Georgia drivers license or voter registration card, I’ll just go to the Feds. The more governments, the better – right?
These Lying Eyes!!!
November 2nd, 2012
2:13 pm
Kyle,
Why not push the idea that if you are unhappy with your local school, MAN UP and find a way to pay to send your kids to teh Private School of your choice!!! This amendment is just a ruse to get the masses to pay for the choices of the few.
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
2:22 pm
Lying @ 2:13: Thanks for another outstanding example of a false claim about the amendment.
In Georgia, the average charter school spends less per pupil than the average traditional public school does. Remind us how this is about pumping the masses for more money?
Hillbilly D
November 2nd, 2012
2:27 pm
I’m still ag’in it. I’m for local control.
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
2:28 pm
Note that carlosgvv and Matz have no evidence to back up their wild claims. No teaching of religious fundamentalism in our existing state charter schools, no Koch Bros. schools here or in other states.
When you got nothing, you resort to smears and innuendo. Which is why you see so much smearing and innuendo from the anti-amendment folks.
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
2:30 pm
Barack @ 1:21: This is hilarious, actually. Here I am supporting a solution — an amendment to allow the state to create more charter schools — and answering groundless criticisms of that solution. And your only resort is to criticize without a solution, and accuse me of doing the same.
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
2:31 pm
Matz @ 1:49: Do you understand what the word “concentration” means? And do you understand what this amendment would do? I hate to sound insulting, but your comment suggests you’d have to answer “no” to each question.
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
2:37 pm
Mr_B @ 1:53: Regarding your first point: How does a school that has to accept any applicant “deselect” anyone? Can you point to an instance where this happened?
Second point: The law doesn’t specify the standardized test to be given, for either charter schools or traditional public schools, because then the Legislature would have to change the law if the test were to be changed. Every charter school in this state gives the same standardized tests as the traditional public schools do, as one can easily determine by searching the AYP reports on the state Education Dept.’s website. If there were one that didn’t, you’d name it rather than merely implying otherwise.
Third point: Not every state has the same policies for charter schools. The comparisons aren’t necessarily valid.
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
2:37 pm
And no, I don’t own stock in any EMOs.
Rush
November 2nd, 2012
2:39 pm
Finn:
Give it a rest….are you going to slit your wrists after Tuesday’s results come in and zero bamma has been retired to the scrap heap of history?
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
2:39 pm
Whatever @ 1:55: How many board seats do you get to vote on where you live? I live in Atlanta, and I don’t get to vote for all of them, or even a majority of them. What’s more, the demand for alternatives isn’t uniform within any given school district, because the quality of schools isn’t uniform. So a minority group of students and parents may be unable to obtain relief by petitioning their board or at the ballot box.
Rush
November 2nd, 2012
2:41 pm
Vote Yes:
Looks like you posted the salaries and travel schedule from the Dept of Audits. If only more people would view the report for their local BOE (county or city) then maybe someone would see why such dissatisfaction exist with local school boards and the non teaching salaries.
mountain man
November 2nd, 2012
2:41 pm
“Claim 10: After a decade of cutting the education budget year after year, demanding that teachers do more and more with less and less, the Republicans who run this state woke up one day last year and suddenly realized they give a darn about educating our children.”
Whoa, you are mixing up two separate ideas. You are ASSUMING that cutting spending automatically means that leaders don’t care about education. I am sure that is not the case. They just think that pouring in money does not automatically improve education (or the convers, that removing money does not automatically reduce performance). Money is only part of the solution. What does money have to do with improving discipline? You can’t remove a discipline problem without cash? What about attendance? Does it take more money to call the poilice and enforce our truancy laws? What about social promotion? (The STate could help there by eliminating the stupid state law requiring social promotion after one year.) There are clear problems with education that can be addressed with POLICIES, not money.
Rush
November 2nd, 2012
2:43 pm
Dare say who is bankrolling the vote no on this ammendment, Mrs. B?
Hillbilly D
November 2nd, 2012
2:46 pm
How many board seats do you get to vote on where you live?
That’s a good question and an interesting point. In my county, they all run county wide.
ITP
November 2nd, 2012
2:46 pm
Whatever, Try for some local control in Dekalb county if you live in the Brookhaven area and see how far you get with that. At least we now have our own city and do not have to support the leeches down on Memorial Drive
Aquagirl
November 2nd, 2012
2:47 pm
a minority group of students and parents may be unable to obtain relief by petitioning their board or at the ballot box.
That will happen in one-half of the races on Tuesday, the minority’s candidate will lose. If Mitt Romney wins I doubt folks here will support an unelected federal board’s “relief” for Obama voters.
Rush
November 2nd, 2012
2:49 pm
Really, Hillbilly? I don’t recall any counties having that system in place when I previously performed local BOE audits for the GA Dept of Audits. Things may have changed as I have been out of it a while but please share with us what county elects all board members county wide because I think this is superior.
Rush
November 2nd, 2012
2:51 pm
Excellent point, Mountain. Money does not solve all the social ills of our public education. How is it SD spends less per pupil than GA but receives better results?
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
2:52 pm
Aquagirl @ 2:47: I expected someone to make that point. But unless your ballot doesn’t include the presidential candidates on it, you can’t very well say you didn’t get to vote in that race…
Hillbilly D
November 2nd, 2012
2:53 pm
Rush
For privacy reasons, I’m not going to tell what county I live in (Kyle knows where I live) but it’s not that unusual in rural counties up here. Both our school board and our county commission have districts but the whole county votes on each district. The drawback to that, though it hasn’t happend to my knowledge, is that conceivably, a candidate could receive a minority of votes in his/her district and still get elected by the rest of the county. Nothing is perfect.
mountain man
November 2nd, 2012
2:53 pm
“How is it SD spends less per pupil than GA but receives better results?”
Better students and parents
Vote Yes
November 2nd, 2012
2:57 pm
I’ve never understood why public school salaries don’t fluctuate like the value of my home. It would solve so many budget issues. Do we live in an up-only society?
Aquagirl
November 2nd, 2012
3:08 pm
unless your ballot doesn’t include the presidential candidates on it, you can’t very well say you didn’t get to vote in that race…
Are you saying disaffected parents can’t vote for someone to represent them? Their issue seems to be “my candidate was overruled at the ballot box, I should have some other method of getting what I want.”
Seriously, If I don’t vote for Nathan Deal and he wins I’m not gonna ignore the Highway Patrol. It’s a department carrying out policies guided by a person I didn’t vote for and I live with that. As long as they operate within the law, that’s the government I get.
I don’t pitch a tantrum and decide I’ll only acknowledge federal law enforcement officers. Anyone who does that and gets tazed does not have my sympathy.
Zinc
November 2nd, 2012
3:13 pm
Kyle-I generally enjoy your columns though I rarely support you views. But this a hack piece. You are no better than those sending out misleading facts. You cherry picked claims, tried to make this a black and white (not race) issue. And it isn’t event close to being that simple.
Your first 4 points illustrate my claim. All four of these issues fall into a grey area when the implementation occurs. But you act like it is an either \ or issue.
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
3:14 pm
Aquagirl @ 3:08: My point is, it’s not as simple as “vote out the school board.” There are inherent reasons this is more difficult than the average election. Among them: these tend to be even lower-information than most elections; many voters have had earlier experiences with the school system (better or worse) that may make them disinclined to listen to the complaints of current parents; many voters don’t have children and may not pay much attention to the race; roughly a third of a child’s elementary/secondary education occurs between elections.
On the whole, I think a locally elected school board serves an important role. But I’m not at all prepared to believe it’s a perfect system, and I think an appeals process at the state level — which is what this amendment guarantees, for all intents and purposes — is perfectly valid.
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
3:17 pm
Zinc @ 3:13: I picked claims that I have heard or read often enough to think they have reached a lot of voters. And I’m sorry, but there’s nothing gray about Nos. 1-3 — these are the facts. Btw, the only way in which No. 4 is somewhat gray is that the track record isn’t long and broad enough (though it never will be, if this amendment fails).
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
November 2nd, 2012
3:22 pm
Welcome to the great Theocratic State of Georgia.
Out with Evolution. In with Adam and Eve.
They are already doing it in Louisiana.
Georgia is next.
And also forgive me if Kyle and others say …but but that wont happen here.
Im sorry but it will. They have been trying to get prayer back in schools in Georgia for a long time now.
This is another step in doing just that.
carlosgvv
November 2nd, 2012
3:28 pm
Kyle – 2:28
The Koch brothers are pouring millions into Georgia in order to get this ammendment passed so FUTURE Charter Schools can be established.
You know I was’t talking about current Schools. Also, fundamentalism is as strong here in Georgia as anywhere else so, don’t try to blow smoke here about current schools not being influenced by right-wing parents.
carlosgvv
November 2nd, 2012
3:29 pm
I demand – 3:22
Kyle doesn’t want to hear that and will reply with a non sequitur, hoping you won’t notice.
Aquagirl
November 2nd, 2012
3:36 pm
There are inherent reasons this is more difficult than the average election.
So, the obvious conservative solution is an unelected state board (which will magically be more responsive) allowing a select few to escape a system with inadequate and unresponsive representation.
And this will be decided by a poorly understood and confusingly-worded constitutional amendment voted on by the same people who vote for school boards.
Riiiight.
http://failblog.cheezburger.com/thereifixedit/
roswell mom
November 2nd, 2012
3:37 pm
Kyle – when you claim that charter schools spend less per pupil than the average traditional public school, what costs are you putting in the numerator? The charter schools I’ve seen have their own finance staff and development staff (fund raisers) and other positions that an individual public school does not have. I wonder how the overhead required by all schools (not going to argue whether its bloated) and building costs are allocated to the per pupil spend for charters vs. public. Not saying you’re wrong – just saying it doesn’t make sense that charters save money. It sounds more like a talking point created by clever finance people.
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
3:40 pm
Cheesy: You have nothing to sell but fear. And you’ve never let the facts get in your way of doing that.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
November 2nd, 2012
3:40 pm
I realize that.
He will give us assurances that something like that wont happen in a progressive state like Georgia.
Please !!!!
They can and will change the curriculum at these schools to better align with their understanding of the world.
Here is ONE example of what children are taught in Louisiana WITH YOUR TAX DOLLARS at Charter schools.
“Bible-believing Christians cannot accept any evolutionary interpretation. Dinosaurs and humans were definitely on the earth at the same time and may have even lived side by side within the past few thousand years.”
Of course they would never teach that point of view in Georgia. LOL.
Some of us aren’t so gullible.
Misleading
November 2nd, 2012
3:41 pm
Claim 1: Correct, they aren’t. Just a bridge to start using taxpayer dollars for private schools. Hence the quote about the unintended consequence of charter is causing private schools to go out of business. Comment was easy fix – approve vouchers. But it isn’t about private – just anyone who wants to getting a dip in public funds.
Claim 2: They select through accessibility. No matter how many kids they let in – if they can’t get there (i.e. afford or have parents willing to transport), they aren’t included. See AJC article about all bricks and mortar charter schools having a lower percentage of Free and Reduced lunch population than the county they are in.
Claim 4: It is early. However, they should – see comment about lower % of free and reduced – whether you think so or not, these kids are selected, it just may be indirectly through other factors. In any case, I’m pretty sure you have this stat in reverse, traditional had a higher AYP percentage. Back out the fact that one school had a 30% free and reduced popution compared to the system being 90%, and that is sad that it is that close.
6. It expands that department. Once again, noone asks where the money will come from when every other department at the state level has been massively cut. It’s one total pot of money. Just because charter schools are approved and added, doesn’t make the total pot go up. It comes from somewhere else. Keep telling public schools they are failing while cutting a billion dollars a year.
7. That is the worse definition of decentralization I have ever read. You asked someone if they asked what it meant – you are way off. You now effectively having one small body at the State level to have the power to create a school and use taxpayer funds anywhere in the State – which no responsibility to taxpayers since they are appointed.
Overall – it’s only about 2 things. Representation closest to the taxpayer and money. Where in the world does the money come from with every other department massively cut. Does it come from Higher Ed – leading to tuition increases. Does it come from public ed – add to the billion and tell teacher’s they are failing? Where?
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
3:42 pm
“which will magically be more responsive”
Well, Aquagirl, it won’t have the same inherent and obvious conflict of interest the local school board has when it comes to authorizing its own competition.
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
3:43 pm
roswell mom @ 3:37: Of course the overhead is included — in both figures. Building costs usually aren’t, but they certainly magnify the gap between traditional public schools’ funding and that of charter schools.
Matz
November 2nd, 2012
3:44 pm
Money does not solve all the social ills of our public education.
SO TRUE! It could not possibly solve the ills of the absence of parental involvement, or bad decisions on how the money is spent. However, when we have ever-increasing class sizes, and schools that don’t have TEXTBOOKS kids can take home to read at night, then a little extra spending on essentials could indeed help those students. Sure, to the netbook crowd, those clunky old textbooks seem old fashioned, but in the real world, there are plenty of kids for whom putting a book in their hand and saying, “Read Chapter 8 tonight, we’ll discuss this tomorrow” is still a practical way to stimulate learning.
What if every school had the resources to excel? Then we would not have to amend our Constitution so some kids could receive the education they deserve, while others just “make do” with the same ol’ striving-for-mediocrity that our legislators think is enough. Hmmm….
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
3:44 pm
Cheesy @ 3:40: You pay taxes in Louisiana?
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
November 2nd, 2012
3:45 pm
Cheesy: You have nothing to sell but fear. And you’ve never let the facts get in your way of doing that.
You’re correct. Because I am afraid.
Of what the right wing nut jobs in this state will do when they get the chance.
Ill recommend a little viewing for you Kyle.
http://www.kansasvdarwin.com/
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
November 2nd, 2012
3:46 pm
Cheesy @ 3:40: You pay taxes in Louisiana?
You know dang well what I meant.
Ill admit the wording was confusing.
roswell mom
November 2nd, 2012
3:48 pm
Please post a link to the math showing the cost per pupil. Building costs do contribute to the difference – some charter schools are “given” buildings abandoned by the school district – so they’d have to include only maintence, not depreciation, etc. Where do charter schools save money? Do they have more students per teacher, fewer teaching assistants, fewer books or lower retirement contributions? Link – if you have one. Thanks!
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
November 2nd, 2012
3:49 pm
Well see you guys. Gonna try to get in 9 holes before it gets too late
Just 4 more days till Obama is re elected.
4 more days until Cheesy Grits just goes away. And Paul Ryan with him.
And until Georgia takes another step backwards.
Have fun.
teaching taxpayer
November 2nd, 2012
3:52 pm
The legislature could have put forward an amendment that would allow voters to ELECT the people who decide which charter schools will receive our tax dollars. But no. The legislature decided instead to give us no choice other than an amendment that would allow Nathan Deal to APPOINT his cronies (See Lottery: Georgia for an example). Vote NO for Nathan Deal’s cronies spending YOUR tax dollars, and insist on a better amendment in 2014.
historydawg
November 2nd, 2012
3:53 pm
How do you sleep at night knowing that these deceptions injure children? How, as a conservative, do you support state tax dollars going to an unaccountable commission to fund schools which are not accountable to any voter? How can you claim that charters do not select their students? Do you think Lake Oconee Academy, for example, represents the general population (race, class, and special ed) of Greene County? Are you seriously making this claim? Of course, this will allow the State to determine winners and losers and leave some child behind. How can you claim this is a good financial move and claim charters spend less money per student, when in reality the burden simply shifts to the parents (transportation, etc.) and not all parents can afford this? Thus we return to the equity issues. Please acknowledge that this is really a metro Atlanta problem, in which parents and teachers may find a school board unresponsive, but also that this will simply destroy finally all of the school districts in other parts of the state.
Finally, WHY NOT give the freedom from bureaucracy and state mandates, the innovations that charters promise, to ALL students? Why NOT for everyone? It is gross and naked self-interest, and your continued submission to corporate interests at the expense of your responsibilities to ALL the children of this state is disgusting.
St Simons
November 2nd, 2012
3:53 pm
VOTE NO to ALL AMENDMENTS. We did.
I don’t want children to be forced to learn jesus rode the dinosaurs
with my tax dollars – going into some wingnut-for-profit school scheme.
and yes, we’re gonna rub your nose in it Wednesday.
you sure have pooped enough on the carpet.
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
3:59 pm
Misleading @ 3:41:
1. How is this going to be both “a bridge to start using taxpayer dollars for private schools” and a cause for “private schools to go out of business”? And how is a constitutional amendment specifically about charter schools going to have anything to do with private schools at all?
2. It’s true that you can’t go to a school if you can’t get to it. But the school is open to any student who can get to it. What’s more, today we trap students in schools even if they are willing and able to go to another one. Which is worse: Opening a school that any student can attend if he/she can get there, or not opening it and leaving all students where they are, even if that means they get a sub-par education? As for the article you mentioned, you’ll have to be more specific; we’ve run a lot of articles, and that one doesn’t stand out from the others in my mind.
4. Nope, the stat you’re talking about compares all charter schools — not just state ones — to all traditional public schools in the state — even if there are no state charter schools nearby. Which is a meaningless stat when it comes to this amendment. My comparison, which comes from the Governor’s Office of Student Achievement, shows that state charter schools outperform the traditional public schools in the same districts where they are located.
6. How does it expand the department? The commission members are unpaid. The same staff doing the leg work now will be doing the leg work in the future. Any appearance of an increase is really just an accounting function — certain spending will show up in its own line item rather than being lumped into another, larger one.
7. Two bodies holding a given power = less centralization than only one body holding that power.
As for your overall point: The control in this scenario that actually matters is the control for parents to choose where their children go to school, as well as the control of the people running that school to decide how best to educate their students. In both cases, state charter schools would enhance those measures of local control. The level of government that authorizes this local control is of secondary importance, at best. And I can’t answer your question about funding, because that will be up to the Legislature to decide, and there are many, many ways lawmakers could choose to balance the budget. But it won’t be taken out of the QBE funding of local school systems with state charter schools, which was one of the chief complaints of critics of the previous commission.
historydawg
November 2nd, 2012
4:05 pm
@ Kyle 3:59, The reason charters are associated with private schools is because they operate on the same basic principle: we must separate ourselves from lesser people in order to get the best education and not be corrupted by our neighbors. That is the promise of both schools and definitely against the responsibilities of American citizenship–to educate ALL students. Again, WHY NOT give the glory of charters to ALL students? Why depend on resegregation (or a lottery as you call it) to make good education for some? If charters are better, WHY NOT give that to all. Because you cannot–the greatness of the charter depends on the same greatness private schools lean on–”We are not going to school with those people, and it is simply OK to leave some behind.”
curious
November 2nd, 2012
4:07 pm
I can see the for-profit Charter school companies coming into Georgia and hiring a few well-placed ex-politicans to be their lobbying arm.
You can guess who they’ll be.
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
4:09 pm
historydawg @ 3:53: I’m not making any deceptions — I’m refuting the ones others are making.
I can claim charters do not select their students because it’s the law that they can’t do so, and none of the people who have claimed otherwise have ever presented even a single case of this law being broken.
As I mentioned on another thread, the Lake Oconee Academy is not a state charter school. It is a locally approved charter school — and by locally approved, I mean approved by the same kind of elected school board you evidently believe to be superior to a state commission. If there’s a problem with that school, why isn’t that local school board being more accountable to the voters there?
I suppose there could be questions of transportation costs, but those obviously would be on a case-by-case basis. In any event, it would be far cheaper for a parent to pay those transportation costs than to pay for private school tuition — the only form of school choice we currently have. How’s that for an “equity issue”?
This is not really a metro Atlanta problem, as evidenced by the state charter schools outside metro Atlanta (CCAT in Bulloch County, Pataula in five south Georgia counties, Mountain Education Center in north Georgia, the virtual charter schools that serve students anywhere in the state).
Finally, I think there is a case to be made for giving all schools this kind of flexibility, but I’m not naive enough to believe that’s going to happen all at once, without evidence from some schools — maybe state charter schools?? — that this kind of flexibility works. After all, the bureaucrats and administrators opposing this amendment are more or less the same people who impose the inflexible requirements on traditional public schools.
They’re the ones, imo, who shouldn’t be able to sleep at night.
These Lying Eyes!!!
November 2nd, 2012
4:09 pm
So Kyle, Give me YOUR best reaoning why so many out of state entities are flooding Georgia with money to support this ammendment??? Do you really believe that they give a hoot about our kids???
curious
November 2nd, 2012
4:09 pm
historydawg
You’re 100% correct. This is the first step toward creating a 2 tier public education system; the haves and have nots. Sound familiar?
historydawg
November 2nd, 2012
4:11 pm
Kyle, certainly you have read history, right? Schools have been failing ever since they were invented, because some folks always want to rid themselves of their responsibility to preserve the Republic. It might as well have been Rep Lindsey, rather than President Eisenhower, who blamed public school teachers for Sputnik. Today it is Exxon, BP, and C. Rice–who demean America’s greatest invention. You certainly know that schools around the world are using our model and succeeding, as we hand over money to corporate interests and pay for the education of a few. We have become unAmerican, while others have become what our Founders promised to all kids (except for the slave children, of course).
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
4:11 pm
historydawg @ 4:05: “they operate on the same basic principle: we must separate ourselves from lesser people in order to get the best education and not be corrupted by our neighbors.”
You really ought to visit one of these schools some time. You would realize the stereotypes and misconceptions you’ve accepted about them are not based on reality.
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
4:12 pm
Lying @ 4:09: Yes, I do.
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
4:13 pm
curious @ 4:09: We already have that kind of education system. This is an attempt to correct that inequity.
curious
November 2nd, 2012
4:13 pm
Kyle,
Lake Oconee Academy may have been approved by the local School Board (majority white), but look at their attendance priority zones and the racial demographics of the student body.
It’s not designed to be reflective of the County population and the numbers bear that out.
Matz
November 2nd, 2012
4:14 pm
historydawg,
Beautifully stated! ALL the schools should be flippin’ awesome, and until such time as we place sufficient importance and priority on making that happen, we’re not truly investing in public education. Thank you for making these points so well!!
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
4:14 pm
curious @ 4:13: I haven’t studied that school. Maybe everything you say is true. What I know is that it’s irrelevant to the discussion about an amendment for state charter schools, and in fact runs counter to the idea that local school boards are inherently better at making equitable decisions.
historydawg
November 2nd, 2012
4:16 pm
I am a teacher, Kyle. Thanks for the insight. I will defer your journalism degree. You understand that diversity, education problems/solutions are not something you can see on a visit, right?
Again, WHY NOT provide freedom from bureaucracy and innovation for ALL children? Why provide for some and abandon the rest?
historydawg
November 2nd, 2012
4:19 pm
Kyle @4:14, do you not have faith in the democratic system? School boards are not inherently equal; voters are designated in our Republic with the job of protecting the equal rights of other. It is increasingly difficult with the shady language on our ballots and the deception that you promote.
curious
November 2nd, 2012
4:19 pm
I think it’s relevant, because these for-profits or even state funded charters are going to be approved and funded by politically connected people who have an agenda to:
1- Make money
2- Appeal to interest groups that have the money.
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
4:20 pm
historydawg @ 4:16: All I suggested is that your notion of an elite group trying to separate itself from the riff-raff could easily be dispelled by spending even a bit of time learning who actually attends most of these charter schools. And I’ve already answered your question about ALL schools. I’d love to see it. And I think this is one important step on the way to achieving that. Or do you really think the way to achieve such flexibility for ALL schools is to first deny it for ALL schools?
curious
November 2nd, 2012
4:24 pm
So what makes Charter Schools so great?
Why can’t it be applied to all schools?
No need to lose 5-10 years of students in under performing schools when we have the winning combination in Charter schools.
historydawg
November 2nd, 2012
4:25 pm
Kyle@4:20, Why must you continue this circle except to confuse? I have never stated that we should deny flexibility for ALL students and ALL schools? Why NOT provide a relaxation from testing that has strangled learning, why not provide flexibility for teachers in ALL schools? Why is this only for charter schools? The Legislature has this power; Boards have to follow STATE laws. The SAME folks who have eliminated the possibility of good teaching and meaningful learning through rules, regulations, NCLB, etc. are pushing charters with the promise that charters are FREE from the very things they have used to destroy public education. What makes charter schools promising (flexibility, teacher/parent influence) should be available for all students, but what really makes charters successful is that they can leave those who CANNOT or REFUSE to participate behind?
historydawg
November 2nd, 2012
4:28 pm
The heart of this is ultimately not about charter schools. It is about giving corporations easier access to taxpayer money. They don’t want to deal with 200 school boards; they simply want to pressure a committee. Dictatorship and single person rule is always easier than democracy. Exploitation is the purpose of the amendment. As usual for most except teachers and parents, it is never about the kids.
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
4:33 pm
historydawg @ 4:25: What circle? What I’m saying is: I would love for more schools to have more flexibility, but we will instead end up with fewer such schools if this amendment passes.
I don’t know anyone supporting this amendment who thinks it will be sufficient to improve education, and that there’s no need for anything else to follow it. All the supporters I know think this is a first step, not a last one.
curious
November 2nd, 2012
4:33 pm
historydawg
Believe you’ve worn Kyle out.
This is about special interests and money. The children are just the vehicle.
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
4:37 pm
curious @ 4:33: Yes, there’s only so much time I’m going to spend answering a polemicist who doesn’t deal in facts. And I believe that amount of time has now elapsed.
Matz
November 2nd, 2012
4:37 pm
Does anyone else find it ironic that those who so vehemently oppose Darwin’s theories (on the basis that they allegedly insult their religious dogma) are frequently the same folks who fervently embrace the policies of “survival of the fittest” when it comes to education, and advocate leaving the lesser ones behind? Just curious.
These Lying Eyes!!!
November 2nd, 2012
4:38 pm
Soooooo…..Klye wants us to believe that all of these “Non-residents” are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to pass this amendment and that they are not setting us up for the end around to double or triple their money somewhere down the line…… Kyle, either you are really foolish ( which I believe not to be true) or you are heloping them set us up for the old ” Bananna in the tailpipe” trick….. I wonder id you you be so gung hoe if the teamsters were dumping money into this issue?????
roswell mom
November 2nd, 2012
4:42 pm
Look, deregulated natural gas, pay lanes on the expressway and Go Fish have all been big successes, so I guess we ought to let them handle charter schools too. What could go wrong?
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
4:42 pm
Matz @ 4:37: If we were leaving people behind, we wouldn’t be trying to create new schools for them. We’d leave them where they are.
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
4:43 pm
roswell mom @ 4:42: Well, most of the state charter schools have been a success, but of course you’d rather talk about Go Fish than that.
Streetracer
November 2nd, 2012
4:44 pm
curious @ 4:33
All education is about special interests and money. Look at the teachers unions, the administrators, the non-teaching staff. Why have saleries grown so fast, and numbers increased at such a pace?
As a simple matter of fact, some states with very low per student costs outperform schools with much higher costs. Compare South Dakota with DC for example.
Educational acheivement depends on two things. A). student desire to learn (usually fed by parental expectation), and B). student work ethic. If those don’t both exist, even Einstein would have not been educated.
historydawg
November 2nd, 2012
4:44 pm
Kyle @4:33. If most supporters are convinced this is the first step on improving education, why do the majority of teachers disagree? Has anyone thought to consult them? Most detest bureaucracy and the waste that is increasing class sizes and eliminating learning, but most also understand the role of the state legislature in eliminating the possibilities of better lives of the very children that they (teachers) serve. Teachers have no money for TV ads, no way to bargain with the morons who run this state, and no recourse when our culture blames them for all the problems (even if BP states it in a positive way: “if we just had better science and math teachers…”). Most teachers want to make education better. That is why they endure such stupidity and powerlessness–for the kids, for the promise America affords ALL children. But you will find few teachers who think a new commission with money to separate children and communities is a step toward improving education for ALL. When such a commission illegally existed, it did nothing to make schools better. Education problems are society’s problems. You can insulate yourself from them, but they will not go away until there is enough courage and sacrifice (probably financial) to solve them.
WOW
November 2nd, 2012
4:49 pm
What makes Charter schools more successful is actually pretty simple. The parents that are involved enough to sign their children up for Charter schools are the ones who are involved in their education. This is the biggest single predictor of children succeeding in school. These kids would be succeeding anyway.
That being said, I am still against this amendment. There is only one pot of state money for funding schools and until we fully fund our existing public schools I just don’t see how diverting these funds helps out the children the children who don’t get in to the charter schools. Once the funding is restored then by all means let local school boards approve as many Charter schools as they want.
Misleading
November 2nd, 2012
4:49 pm
1. How is this going to be both “a bridge to start using taxpayer dollars for private schools” and a cause for “private schools to go out of business”? And how is a constitutional amendment specifically about charter schools going to have anything to do with private schools at all?
The point is that this is a political bridge. The legislative proponents of charters have already stated the “unintended consequence” is that it is putting private schools out of business – so politically, what do you think they want to do to make that not happen. You connect the two by the fact that they believe this is an unintended consequence. They chipped away with SB10, then tried to include military.
2. It’s true that you can’t go to a school if you can’t get to it. But the school is open to any student who can get to it. What’s more, today we trap students in schools even if they are willing and able to go to another one. Which is worse: Opening a school that any student can attend if he/she can get there, or not opening it and leaving all students where they are, even if that means they get a sub-par education? As for the article you mentioned, you’ll have to be more specific; we’ve run a lot of articles, and that one doesn’t stand out from the others in my mind.
I hope everyone realizes what you just admitted to in this statement. Trapping students in schools who might want to go elsewhere as the greater evil of those that do not have the ability to go to the charter for transportation reasons. EVERYONE please read the comment. With your sub-par comment, you do what every legislator does – generalize. If one struggles, they all struggle. Again, these comments are made despite massive funding issues, not to mention the socioeconomics that you now admit to separating.
4. Nope, the stat you’re talking about compares all charter schools — not just state ones — to all traditional public schools in the state — even if there are no state charter schools nearby. Which is a meaningless stat when it comes to this amendment. My comparison, which comes from the Governor’s Office of Student Achievement, shows that state charter schools outperform the traditional public schools in the same districts where they are located.
EVERYONE, please ask what the Free and Reduced rate of the bricks and mortar charter is and find out what the Free and REduced rate is of your System.
6. How does it expand the department? The commission members are unpaid. The same staff doing the leg work now will be doing the leg work in the future. Any appearance of an increase is really just an accounting function — certain spending will show up in its own line item rather than being lumped into another, larger one.
The reference is a line item reference – the $100 million, $400 million, whatever it may be will be shifted from one line item to this line item. So once again, where will the money come from? What line item?
7. Two bodies holding a given power = less centralization than only one body holding that power.
Please look up decentralization. One body that holds no responsibility to the local taxpayer (i.e. not voted on) holding the power to override 180 bodies and create a school anywhere in the State is centralizing. This is not two bodies having the same power, its one body overriding the other 180 (180 local board of eds). Please try again on that definition.
As for your overall point: The control in this scenario that actually matters is the control for parents to choose where their children go to school, as well as the control of the people running that school to decide how best to educate their students. In both cases, state charter schools would enhance those measures of local control. The level of government that authorizes this local control is of secondary importance, at best. And I can’t answer your question about funding, because that will be up to the Legislature to decide, and there are many, many ways lawmakers could choose to balance the budget. But it won’t be taken out of the QBE funding of local school systems with state charter schools, which was one of the chief complaints of critics of the previous commission.
First of all, representation is not of secondary concern. But more importantly, saying that funding will not be taken from public systems once again ignores the FACT, that there is one pot of money at the State level. If the State’s revenue is $17 billion, it does not go up to $17.4 billion because this passes. ALL departments are massively cut. The price comes from someone. There is a HUGE reason why the state does not include anything that binds for funding in the actual amendment – enabling legislation that dictates any aspect of this bill only requires a simple majority to pass.
New Jersy had to put a moratorium on the creation of charters because they couldn’t afford it – where does the money come from?
historydawg
November 2nd, 2012
4:52 pm
@Streetracer 4:44 Good points, especially about state-to-state comparisons. It is not simple. The states with evil teachers’ unions outperform those states, like Georgia, who have made teachers’ unions illegal. But even still no one is questioning the legitimacy of the tests in the first place. What are we using to measure student and teacher success? Multiple-choice exams? Is that really what we want for our children–to be good bubblers? That is all we are using right now to rank kids, teachers, states, etc. We have to look beyond education funding, tests, and charters. We have to consider the problems we have in our society–cultures of poverty and champions of ignorance, who simply do not prize learning. This transcends race and class–so many view education as something on a list to check off, not something that can improve a child or do more than simply prepare one for work. Solve those problems and the schools will respond accordingly.
roswell mom
November 2nd, 2012
4:52 pm
No, Kyle, I’d rather talk about how you came up with charter schools being less expensive per pupil than regular public schools, but you won’t provide the link to the underlying data. I can find some high level claims by charter amendment supporters on the interwebs that agree with what you say, but I can also find where Dekalb’s website states that charter schools get the same per pupil as any other school. When I look at the budget details of individual charter schools, their spending is higher than the average pubic school, but their draw from the county school system is about the same as the average school. The difference is made up by charter school fund raising – which is fine. I don’t have complete data on all schools, so I’d be happy to see it and discuss. Is there a provision in this amendment saying that charter schools are only going to receive x% (where x<100) of the public school funding?
cc
November 2nd, 2012
5:01 pm
Kyle Wingfield:
Why waste the time responding to these falsehoods stated by the anti-amendment folks posting here? Why not do as most of us do and just ignore them? They’ve become so obvious with their lies that anyone with walkin’ around sense can see them for what they are.
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
5:01 pm
Misleading: I’m not sure what you think I’ve “admitted to” — I can’t very well argue that kids can attend a school if they can’t get to it, and I don’t believe we’re going to see state charter schools pop up on every block. But I do believe it’s better to increase choices where we can — and I believe this provides more choice for more kids than currently exists. As for “generalizing,” re-read what I wrote: I said “even if that means they get a sub-par education.” Are you disputing that some of the kids who want to attend state charter schools are now receiving sub-par educations?
The point about the line item shift is that it’s not actually a larger amount of money. It’s the same money the state spends to handle charter schools now, simply accounted for differently.
Yes, by all means, look up “decentralize.” Here’s how my Webster’s dictionary defines it: “To break up a concentration of (governmental authority, industry, population, etc.) in a main center and distribute more widely.” If today only local school boards can approve charter schools, and after the amendment both local school boards and the state commission could approve them, that is a distribution of power more widely.
As for the “one pot of money” theory, I’ll ask you what I’ve asked other amendment opponents who make this point: Why not, then, say we take away from traditional public schools every time we build a road or bridge? Where does it stop? And, more to the point, where’s the proof that funding is the problem? We have increased school budgets in this state and this country for decade, while results have remained flat.
MANGLER
November 2nd, 2012
5:16 pm
1. Public dollars will be used to build or lease a facility that private companies, who don’t spend anything to build or lease it, operate. Public dollars go to pay the salaries of the private employees of these private companies who don’t have to answer to the same standards as public entities and public employees do. If upon public review by unelected (and unpaid?) people at the State and not the local level the school is under performing, it is closed, abandoning the kids and the facility that public dollars paid for. How is that not public money being spent on private school?
2. OK But are there lotteries for public schools? No, they expand. There are lotteries and waiting lists for private schools though.
3. Cheating has been an enormous issue in public schools lately. Ya think that may occur at private for-profit run schools (that public money built)?
4. TBD here, but in other States like Washington, they are under performing their public counterparts.
5/6 If the local school Boards can’t justify a school, then why would the State be any better at making that decision? That is duplicate and LARGER GOVERNMENT.
7. See 5/6, and furthermore, this assumes that politicians at the State level are better at making local decisions than the local Boards are. Why have the local Boards at all in this scenario?
8. OK, Statewide online schooling. Eliminate all brick and mortar schools. For exercise, kids get “vouchers” to the local LA Fitness. No more busses and no more school related traffic backups. That’ll save a ton of money … actually, I’m OK with that one.
Truth is
November 2nd, 2012
5:18 pm
Kyle, give me one reason why I should trust the politicians who are supporting this. Tell me how if this amendment passes, my taxes won’t go up. The millage rate in my county is at the max and the state will need to fund their approvals from a separate fund.
Hey, just give me one reason why I should trust politicians.
yuzeyurbrane
November 2nd, 2012
5:23 pm
If impassioned advocacy carries the day, the pro-Amendment forces owe you a big thanks. You have received a healthy debate on all of your points so I will try to limit my discussion to one which I think is particularly weak and quite frankly I don’t understand why you chose to even make. Namely:
“Claim 7: Allowing the state to authorize charter schools would represent a centralization of power.
The opposite is true. Local districts would still have the power to create charter schools. This would grant the state the same power. That’s less concentration of power. That’s decentralization.” You are engaging in semantics like “it depends on what the meaning of is is.” Decentralization occurs when power is devolved from the center to the local level. The process here is already decentralized to local boards of education. You are proposing a situation with a central power (the state of Georgia’s appointed new commission) sharing power (sort of) with the local boards of education re charter school creation. And the new commission will have powers over the local boards which will essentially allow them to overrule any local board re charter school decision. If it walks like a duck…. Anyway you look at it, this is quasi-centralization, not decentralization of power.
Another point which you kind of lightly touch upon, is that the quasi-centralized state system you propose would theoretically be subject to more input from parents at the charter schools than the traditional schools. I take issue with that assumption but the point I want to make is that local school boards are elected by the whole community, not just parents of schoolkids. Maybe this is a good thing; maybe it is not. But you are supporting a radical change to the current system of community involvement and I think you should clarify where you stand on that. If you think the major problem with public schools is that non-parents are allowed to vote for school boards then say so and let there be a debate on that issue. And if that is the issue then perhaps the current proposed Amendment should be defeated and replaced by one that allows Georgia voters decide whether to simply narrow the voter base to parents?
Phil Lunney
November 2nd, 2012
5:25 pm
http://blogs.ajc.com/mike-luckovich/2012/11/02/114-mike-luckovich-cartoon-gift-horse/
Please address this.
You are absolutely correct and this is a graphic representation of what the ‘for profit’ charter schools companies are financing. Please show it to Kyle Wingfield who had a rather incomplete column on ‘follow the money’ criticizing the state and county school districts for their activism against this Amendment but said nothing about who is paying for the ad campaign.
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
5:28 pm
roswell mom @ 4:52: I couldn’t find one link, so I pulled the numbers from the Ga. DOE website. The most recent year for which all these data are available is FY2011.
First, I pulled the total per-pupil funding from all sources (note that this does not include capital expenditures). For all public schools in Georgia that year, this figure was $8,594. Click here to see for yourself (you want the “Expenditure Report” for “All Districts”; the “Funding Report” shows $9,000 per pupil, fwiw).
But that report does not break out the figures for each state charter school. So I went to the QBE allotment reports for FY11, pulled the report for each state charter school, and divided the total funding number by the number of FTE students. Here’s what I got for each of the 11 state charter schools operating that year (in ascending order of funding):
Odyssey (a virtual school): $3,876
Scholars Academy: $4,896
Ivy Prep: $5,855
Pataula: $6,011
Mountain Education Center: $6,493
Coweta Charter Academy: $6,588
Peachtree Hope: $6,855
CCAT: $7,544
Fulton Leadership Academy: $7,625
Museum School: $7,654
Atlanta Heights: $9,773
So, only one of these schools was above the state average, and it doesn’t have nearly enough students to bring the state charter school average above the state average. (I probably should have written down the total funding and total number of FTEs for these schools so that I could do that, but it didn’t occur to me until I was finishing this comment and I’m not inclined to go back and do it now. If someone else wants to do that, knock yourself out. But the per-school breakdown clearly indicates the SCS average would be below the overall state average.)
Kyle Wingfield
November 2nd, 2012
5:37 pm
yuze @ 5:23: Two points, quickly:
First, I said “decentralization,” not “devolution.” I really don’t see how you can argue that taking a power that only one body currently has, and sharing it with another body, results in more centralization. Back to Webster’s: “Centralize: 1. to make central; bring to or focus on a center; gather together 2 to organize under one control; concentrate the power or authority of in a central organization.”
Second: What more clarity do you need? I’ve said many times that I don’t think local school boards alone should decide this question. As to “community involvement”: This commission would spend state funds, not local ones, so I don’t see the need or the right for the local school board to be the only entity qualified to decide which kinds of schools these state funds can be spent on.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
November 2nd, 2012
5:41 pm
“give me one reason why I should trust the politicians who are supporting this”
Why do you support the politicians (your local school board) who are against it?
“Tell me how if this amendment passes, my taxes won’t go up.”
Your taxes are going to go up anyway. This won’t change that one bit.
mountain man
November 2nd, 2012
6:53 pm
“Finally, WHY NOT give the freedom from bureaucracy and state mandates, the innovations that charters promise, to ALL students?”
They HAVE, already. ANY traditional school can become a conversion charter school. They don’t do this because they don’t WANT to address the issues that face them (then they would have to face the WRATH of the PARENTS). Or they would have to have gonads. I don’t know why they won’t address discipline, attendance, social promotion, and the host of other issues that plague traditional schools.
Pride and Joy
November 2nd, 2012
7:19 pm
My children attended an APS school where the teacher could not speak and refused to speak common, correct, standard English.
She/he wrote and said “The principal HAVE INFORM me ….”
IT is has informed….this teacher could not write nor speak English correctly and she dared to call her/himself a teacher…
I am not worried at all about charter schools “deselecting” students because charter schools WILL have the authority and willpower to DESELECT ignorant school “teachers.”
Kyle tackles the naysayers perfectly. Thanks, Kyle!
I didn’t vote yes for amendment one — I voted He)) YES!
Truth is
November 2nd, 2012
7:23 pm
@Tiberious…my final question was any politician, but as for my local school board, I trust them because I know them. In a county of 17,000, we know everybody else. We can speak directly to our local politicians, their phone number is in the book. I can’t speak to a state politician. I am not a lobbyist, so I have no direct contact. I have left messages and emailed state politicians and the only reply I receive is their standard generalized response emailed back. Even if I only halfway trust my local board, I know that I can speak with any of them and voice my opinion. That will never happen at the state level, especially with an appointed board.
Beth
November 2nd, 2012
9:49 pm
If you are unhappy with your local school, go to the principal, go to PTA, volunteer, go to school board meetings. Get involved–just you have to at a charter school.
If you want to send your kids to private school, be my guest. Just don’t ask the taxpayers to pay for it.
And please stop the advertising with black kids on the ads. Everyone knows this is a racist move to re-segregate. When they say it’s not about race, you can be sure it’s abt race.
JDW
November 2nd, 2012
9:59 pm
@Kyle…the real reason the Amendment is struggling is the facts….
FACT 1…it is redundant. Charter schools can be approved locally and there is a state level appeals process already in place.
FACT 2…the Amendment will cost more money than is currently spent today…up to $430 million annually as estimated by John Barge, Fulton County School Superintendent.
FACT 3…another unregulated, unaccountable state level board usurps local authority and risks the abuses that have occurred in other states such as Florida and Louisiana.
It’s like math…just facts.
yuzeyurbrane
November 2nd, 2012
11:08 pm
Kyle, I don’t think you understood my 2nd point because you were not responsive. I simply pointed out that the community involvement you were talking about was a community of parents of charter schoolchildren only and the state appointed commission. Whereas the community involvement for traditional public schools involves the entire community’s voters and the local elected school board. I asked for your position and you gave me a response to a different question I did not pose. Hate to compare that to politicians but that is how they usually avoid answering questions. Like I said, maybe only schoolkids parents should be the local community which has input but maybe it is better community response to have the whole community involved through locally elected school boards since the administration of public education is important to the whole community, not just the parents. It is the real question and should be subject of debate on a new proposal replacing the proposed Amendment now before us.
Kelly Cadman
November 2nd, 2012
11:50 pm
Dear Roswell Mom,
I recently responded to a post on FB talking about bureaucracy and inefficient… and below is what I posted. Something to know is that 157 districts in Georgia serve LESS than 15,000 students, and ALL have central administrations. I think you are in somewhat of an uncommon situation living in Fulton County. Consider the rest of the state. I am interested in your thoughts on all this.
———————————————————————————————————————————————-
It is so interesting to hear school district superintendents spout about the charter “dangers” and the loss of funding that is surely coming (nonsense, of course, because the law prohibits it.)
Check this out:
Early County
2154 students.
$1,079,677 on their central office and board
$501 per pupil on general administration
CONTRAST:
The Georgia Charter Schools Commission
15,000 students
$650,000 on central office (board was volunteer)
$43 per pupil on general administration
Just think – if Early County operated as efficiently as the Georgia Charter Schools Commission did, there would be $986,532 MORE dollars going into classrooms!
One more interesting thing… In their 2nd year, the Charter Commission voted to REDUCE their own general administration budget (by 2/3 over 2 years) to put MORE money in the classrooms.
Below is an interesting study recently conducted nationwide – you can pull the state-by state information. In Georgia, our central office expenditures have more than doubled the growth of students. Quite a testament to district bloat.
If anything is going to destroy the school districts, it certainly won’t be the charters who are models of efficiency – able to operate on significantly less and produce greater outcomes. Districts are self destructing all by themselves.
The School Staffing Surge: Decades of Employment Growth in America’s Public Schools
http://www.edchoice.org
America’s K-12 public education system has experienced tremendous historical growth in employment, according to the U.S. Department of Education’s National Center for Education Statistics. Between fiscal year (FY) 1950 and FY 2009,…
Mary Elizabeth
November 3rd, 2012
1:12 pm
“It’s going back to a dual system — not based on race but based on economics, and this is harmful,” said Eugene Walker, chairman of the DeKalb County school board and a vocal opponent of the constitutional measure.”
============================================
I have often stated this possibility as an outcome of Amendment 1. Please read the full article, entitled, “Data Show Relatively Fewer Students In Poverty Served in Charter Schools,” in the link, below:
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/data-show-relatively-fewer-students-in-poverty-ser/nSwh7/
Vote NO on NOvember 6 to Amendment 1.
yuzeyurbrane
November 3rd, 2012
1:53 pm
Kyle, I am sorry that your colleagues at the AJC through fact-based reporting by your investigative journalists and as described in Maureen’s blog today have rained on your parade this week-end. It looks like one of your pro-Amend arguments is just plain bs.
Mary Elizabeth
November 3rd, 2012
2:35 pm
This is about the privatization of public education. There is much money and power outside of Georgia behind this effort in Georgia. Part of that privatization agenda will entail, in future legislative sessions, the effort to create bills which will remove teachers in quasi-private public schools from the Teacher’s Retirement System of Georgia. There are long-ranged, and societal transforming, goals within this national Republican agenda regarding the privatization of America’s public instiutions and of America’s public programs, such as Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.
Don’t be fooled and do not fail to see into this long-ranged agenda, even if it is not as blatantly stated as it should be for citizens to weigh without propaganda. Vote NO on NOvember 6 for Amendment 1
Paddy O
November 3rd, 2012
11:24 pm
Queer. I’ve never heard any of these assertions. However, one thing is clear – this amendment will usurp local control – something that GA republicans have had little respect for, and one which Tom Murphy and his Democrats were far more conservative than this bunch of repubs. The oddity is, AJC conservatives seem blind to key motivator for most home grown Georgians – home rule and local control; the other oddity is disliking state functions/projects/problem solving being funded by direct fees – which should NOT be diverted into the general fund, as has also been done by this horde of faux conservative masquerading as “good” republicans. I wish the Tom Murphy fiscally conservative Dixiecrats were back. They had a much better pulse of the people.
Paddy O
November 3rd, 2012
11:33 pm
aquagirl: normally, I disagree with you, but on this – remember, Kyle and his predecessor wooten are not true blue conservative closer to libertarians; they are generally conservative with some illogical beliefs (which I believe are fictional when it comes to caring about families in fictionally failing schools) – which ideologically, are not conservative as Georgians typically perceive conservativism – which is home rule is paramount, and unelected boards are a smoke screen. Deal is now showing his true crooked colors via widespread cronyism.
Paddy O
November 3rd, 2012
11:44 pm
after reading kyles comments, it is quite obvious he is as big a BS artist as Obama is about Benghazi. He is NOT to be trusted – he is simply pushing an idea that I don’t think Georgian believe in – putting the decision making in the hands of unelected bureacrats in that cesspool which is Atlanta. I hope Amend 1, in all its deceptive glory loses by a negative vote of at least 65% – Georgians rejected a profoundly faulty trauma care amendment, and now we must reject this pile of manure. Here it is: If you don’t like your kids school – either get involved and make it better, or friggin move. How many elementary schools in GA are failing 100% of the students who attend there? If the answer is none, then this entire process is simply academic. BTW, i’m a fiscal conservative and RARELY vote Democratic – due to the party having a strange addiction to perversion, murder and irresponsibility.
Paddy O
November 3rd, 2012
11:46 pm
Kelly – you cherry pick date like a standard liberal lemming. Were you BORN in GA, or just a damn Yankee?
Paddy O
November 3rd, 2012
11:48 pm
Kelly – is the state charter commission in charge of 100% of charters, or just those it approves? also, due to the fact that I don’t think the Charter commission should exist, I would assert that the $650,000 was completely wasted funds – and, what taxpayer has any say in how that board operates?
Paddy O
November 3rd, 2012
11:51 pm
I hope all vote no, as the only thing it will definately do is usurp local control of schools – which are utterly a local gov’t function. I would guess most cost increases at the central office were due to the need to hire No Child Left Behind experts to address all the additional paperwork. The amendment is a lot like free trade agreements – despite all the bluster, the only thing free trade is guaranteed to do is LOWER blue collar – union and non -union – wages. Both are popular, but BAD ideas. However, if you like liberal centralized states like NJ, sure – vote yes for this power grab.
Paddy O
November 3rd, 2012
11:53 pm
why would those who serve on the commission do so voluntarily? they live right in Atlanta, or get a healthy per diem? Will that volunteer status be in perpetuity, or just a nice public manipulation tool to get folks to vote for this monstrosity? Most state board members get compensated in the 6 figure range. How is the membership distributed geographically?