Hurricane Sandy prompts two sharply divergent views on how society should respond
It’s been a while since we’ve heard from Occupy Wall Street, the group alleged to be the left’s answer to the tea party. But you might hear more about these messages yesterday from the group expressing apparent approval of the wrecked state of New York City post-Hurricane Sandy:
No subways. No electricity. No chains. #capitalism #sandy #nyc
I don’t think the person tweeting from the OWS account really believes things would be better in a world with so much physical destruction (although, in light of the way OWS treated the Manhattan park where it held its famous rallies last year, I may be giving him/her too much credit). I do, however, think these messages betray an astounding lack of recognition that free-market capitalism is the most accurate system mankind has yet devised to represent how members of a community want to interact with one another.
So, when OWS tweets,”Insurance is the capitalist answer to what should be an effort of mutual aid from the community. #sandy,” while philosophizing, “That community you’re experiencing, in the face of crisis? It’s always there. Think about what it is that usually obscures it. #sandy,” it’s missing the point that people usually don’t “experience” “community” in this way because they’d prefer to make other arrangements and not live like the world is collapsing around them. Arrangements such as insurance.
But whither government? After all, liberals like to say government is “simply the name we give to the things we choose to do together.” That sentiment, however, suggests everyone is always on board with what government takes from them and does on their behalf. The more government does, the less that’s true.
Back to the topic at hand: That doesn’t mean conservatives think government should be out of the disaster-relief business altogether — even if some of us think government should refrain from some other spending and set that money aside to make sure we don’t have to borrow money to cover these expenses, while others believe the more local and state governments can handle emergency management, the better it will be done. (Not to mention that the private sector is often quicker and more efficient in delivering aid than government agencies, as Wal-Mart famously demonstrated in post-Katrina New Orleans.)
This topic tends not to get the thoughtful treatment it deserves in the midst of a crisis, and then it’s usually forgotten once the crisis leaves the headlines. So, we get broad claims about Mitt Romney’s alleged heartlessness based on one brief segment of one interview in which he promoted a federalist approach to disaster relief. Which is about as fair as it would be for me now to point out that President Obama has said nice things in the past about OWS and argue he must necessarily subscribe to its anti-capitalist view of how the world works.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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331 comments Add your comment
Del
October 31st, 2012
2:26 pm
Obama spoke well of OWS when he and fellow Democrats thought that the movement would be as formidable for them as the Tea Party was for Republicans in the mid-term election. When the OWS behavior began to embarrass Democrats they turned away. The Federal government should and does play a role in disaster relief, however, state and local government should play the bigger role along with the local communities, faith based organizations and private business The Fed should maintain mostly a supporting role for those entities.
Beyond The Middle of the Road
October 31st, 2012
2:29 pm
Oh, and while I normally gloss over all the epithets, vulgarity and name-calling that goes on in these forums… Barry’s insistence that anyone who doesn’t vote the way he prefers isn’t an American crosses over the line IMHO.
Randy Ayn
October 31st, 2012
2:35 pm
It must be OWS day on the Rush hour or something. Liberals mocked them as much as conservatives hated them (see The Colbert Report for some good stuff). The problem with OWS was that their little burning-man circus managed to divert attention away from the real problems with banks too big to fail, disclosure and risk management that nearly sank the economy. The people that profited owe a lot to OWS for taking the focus off of them. Oh, and they also want you to vote for Romney.
Master (de)Bater
October 31st, 2012
2:36 pm
What Del said @ 2:26 pm, ditto.
iggy
October 31st, 2012
2:38 pm
*** Great News!!! ***
As I understand, Pres Oblunder and AF-1 have touched down in NJ. Chris should tell OBlunder. “Ok Daddy Long Legs. Are these the shovel ready jobs you were referring too?”
BenDaho
October 31st, 2012
2:41 pm
Tiberius – pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 31st, 2012
1:06 pm
Comparing Katrina (the storm) to Sandy (the storm) and the devastation each caused is moronic at best. As does trying to compare the responses to each.
The moronic thing about the Katrina catastrophe is allowing morons to rebuild below sea level in an area that has a bullseye on it from mother nature. What’s the cutoff on the number of rebuilds in New Orleans?
Randy Ayn
October 31st, 2012
2:45 pm
There are good private charities that don’t pay their execs over $500,000 per year. I’m sure the Red Cross does some great things, but here some comments on the Red Cross from others:
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.reviews&orgid=3277
Redcoat
October 31st, 2012
2:48 pm
Unemployed can now get to work cleaning up…….to keep their “unemployment” coming until all the clean up is finished. Should be a work-ready clean up force! Plenty of very willing, dedicated, able bodied pool of eager-to-work people ready to go.
Interested Observer
October 31st, 2012
2:49 pm
Re: “After all, liberals like to say government is ’simply the name we give to the things we choose to do together.’ That sentiment, however, suggests everyone is always on board with what government takes from them”
I’d like to make a small correction to Kyle’s original post. That liberal sentiment mentioned above more accurately suggests that THE MAJORITY OF US is, ostensibly, on board what the government does (that’s sort of how a democracy works). That would include taking such actions as starting a war of choice in Iraq, torturing prisoners of war in violation of the Geneva Conventions, spying on Americans without warrants, passing legislation specifically to prevent a husband from ending life support for his comatose wife, or conversely, electing representatives who would end such practices.
Also, I don’t know how much those who participate in or sympathize with Occupy Wall Street feel about capitalism, but for the record, the behaviors of the big banks and big business that OWS groups are fighting to end to are not part of and have nothing to do with capitalism…to the contrary.
When liberals fight for legislation to increase transparency, give shareholders rights over the compensation of corporate managers, and the like, they are the one’s who are promoting capitalism.
Jiggle the Handle
October 31st, 2012
2:56 pm
Tiberius–
Just as I was about to applaud the literacy and thoughtfulness of your comments, you allowed other posters to get under your skin and devolved to the same level. Oh, well, at least I know you have it in you, so keep posting.
As a Proud Progressive I’m guessing my political philosophy diverges from yours by a country mile, but I appreciate your thoughts and comments. It was a decent discussion until the snarky comments started launching from BOTH camps.
I agree that a Katrina-Sandy comparison is probably pointless, if for no other reason than Katrina was such a painful lesson in the expected outcome of incompetence. Under W, FEMA became a bastion of political appointees–most having no background or experience in emergency crisis management–and it showed. What’s little known is that these political appointees successfully ran off a number of key, highly experienced FEMA professionals who operated at the “ground level” during emergencies. FEMA was management and experience depleted well before Katrina hit.
Compare that to today. Obama appointed Craig Fugate as FEMA director, a Jeb Bush appointee, I might add. He used to run the Florida emergency management operation. I would say he knows a thing or two about crisis management and weather-related disasters. On an interview this morning, he was clear that the respective state governors were calling the shots, making the requests and establishing priorities related to resource deployment. He said his job was to provide them with all possible support. They were essentially his boss.
I will also say that Obama has been engaged and accessible throughout the crisis. Compare his recent actions to that of a ” returning from vacation fly-over in Air Force One.” Deploying resources and manpower prior to the storm was the smart thing to do. Credit to Gov Christie for his almost effusive remarks complimenting the Prez on the role he has played and the assistance he has provided during this crisis. It was a classy thing to say from someone who in my opinion hasn’t always been very classy–but I have much greater respect for Christie as a result of his comments.
-Jiggle
Dusty
October 31st, 2012
2:57 pm
Del had it right at 2:36. On a catastrophe as large as Huricane Sandy, we need government in all forms working i.e. federal, state and local. I commend all(private) power companies who seem to be rushing to help wherever they are needed. Red Cross is wondergul and Americans all over the country are doing what they can in many ways. The American way!!!
As to Katrina, it was my understanding that Federal aid cannot be given to a state until a governor ASKS for it. The governor of Louisiana waited to ask for help and that was the first big delay besides the local government in disarray.
Gov. Christi, now one of my favorite politicians, got his state ready and the Federals knew exactly what he expected. President Obama’s response was good and proper. Sometimes he does something right. Too bad it doesn’t happen more often. But, when a huge disaster happens, we all stand together.
JDW
October 31st, 2012
2:58 pm
@Kyle…”As opposed to Obama’s tour of NJ today? C’mon, man. Both sides are playing this game. We’re six days out from Election Day”
Except for one minor detail…name an American President, any one you can remember that HAS NOT visited a disaster site such as this one…they all do election or not. Obama is doing what he would in this situation regardless of the election. Romney is as always attempting to mislead.
BTW did you see GM’s comment on his latest ad in the same vein?…
“The accusation drew a dismissive response from a GM spokesman, who explained, “We’ve clearly entered some parallel universe during these last few days.”
Romney, along with many of those around here have been in a parallel universe for some time.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-34222_162-57542993/gm-like-chrysler-refutes-romneys-auto-industry-ad/
You don't say
October 31st, 2012
3:01 pm
“I commend all(private) power companies who seem to be rushing to help wherever they are needed.”
I think it is awesome that these companies have contractual agreements to help each other. Nothing new and nothing done out of benevolence. They are getting paid to do what they are doing.
I think it is great, however it is not nor has it ever been charity.
Master (de)Bater
October 31st, 2012
3:06 pm
Observer @ 2:49 pm
“When liberals fight for legislation to increase transparency, give shareholders rights over the compensation of corporate managers, and the like, they are the one’s who are promoting capitalism.”
Not really, IO. You may like what they are doing, and may believe it to be noble–I think a part of it is also–but it is not promoting capitalism. Voting with their dollars (or the withholding of those dollars) would be doing BOTH promoting capitalism and doing what you like too. If you believe that a certain company is unfairly compensating their employees, then don’t do business with that company, and don’t buy their stock…unless of course the profit you might make from investing in that company is enough to make you compromise on what you believe. Your choice. That is the freedom that is capitalism.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 31st, 2012
3:15 pm
Condi now says to stop jumping to conclusions on Benghazi.
She must be a RINO?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 31st, 2012
3:15 pm
“When liberals fight for legislation to increase transparency, give shareholders rights over the compensation of corporate managers, and the like, they are the one’s who are promoting capitalism.”
Sorry, Interested Observer, but when legislation is used in ANY manner, that isn’t promoting capitalism one bit.
And Randy Ayn, if you’re going to have someone oversee a multi-billion $$ enterprise of such importance, you’d better have someone worth paying $500 large per year at the helm.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 31st, 2012
3:17 pm
On a catastrophe as large as Huricane Sandy, we need government
SOCIALIST!
Don Abernethy
October 31st, 2012
3:23 pm
All I know to do is to pray for the people who were in the storm. But I wonder if the water washed out all the “trash” at the New York Times?
Master (de)Bater
October 31st, 2012
3:25 pm
Jiggle @ 2:56 pm
“Credit to Gov Christie for his almost effusive remarks complimenting the Prez on the role he has played and the assistance he has provided during this crisis. It was a classy thing to say from someone who in my opinion hasn’t always been very classy–but I have much greater respect for Christie as a result of his comments.”
The funny thing about your comment, Jiggle, is that Governor Christie was saying these things, along with many other things, somewhat combatantly, combating the idea that because he would be “supporting” Mr. Obama with his comments that maybe he shouldn’t say them. He was not saying all these things to be “classy.” He was saying them because they are true! What is funny is that this is his modus operandus, but you only recognize him as “classy” or “nice” or “good” when he speaks truth that you happen to agree with. He, more than any politician I can think of, speaks the truth most of the time, and he does so unapologetically, and quite frequently. I certainly didn’t see you calling him “classy” or singing his praises after his convention keynote.
I think Chris Christie is one of the strongest American leaders I’ve seen in a long time, and he puts our current president to shame most of the time. But Obama is not wrong 100% of the time, just way more than a president should be. Admitting that Obama is performing well on this one thing doesn’t make up for his incompetence that we experience a majority of the time. I think New Jersey is fortunate right now that Christie is in charge there. Few could do it better.
Dusty
October 31st, 2012
3:32 pm
Finn 3:17
SOCIALIST! I haven’t been a socialist since I was three years old.
At that time I changed from demanding care, control and cuisine from everybody else and started my own realization.
You should try such a change sometimes.
.
Kyle Wingfield
October 31st, 2012
3:36 pm
Signified @ 2:24: Funny you should mention those wedge issues, since the Obama campaign has spent so much of this election playing up those very issues, particularly abortion, while the Romney campaign keeps trying to talk about the economy. My earlier comment was merely pointing out the obvious, namely that you do a whole lot of “us and them” while decrying “us and them.” And as I seem to have to point out on this blog every day lately, I make no attempt to hide the fact that I’m an opinion writer. If you have a problem with opinion writing, I suggest you stick to other sections of AJC.com.
And I didn’t take your earlier question about the free-market economy seriously because I didn’t think anyone was laboring under the impression that that’s what we have.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 31st, 2012
3:37 pm
Barry’s insistence that anyone who doesn’t vote the way he prefers isn’t an American crosses over the line
————-
It’s not about what I prefer. It’s about opposing someone who doesn’t like America.
Don’t forget to apologize to your children and grandchildren after you vote for Obozo.
Dusty
October 31st, 2012
3:40 pm
Yes, indeed, we all enjoy the work of a fine Republican, Governor Christie. He’s so typical. ABSOLUTELY!
You don't say
October 31st, 2012
3:42 pm
“At that time I changed from demanding care, control and cuisine from everybody else and started my own realization.”
You cooked for yourself at 3? Drove yourself around? Paid for your own housing, clothes, etc? And on and on.
WOW.
You were some kind of prodigy. Congratulations.
MrLiberty
October 31st, 2012
3:45 pm
Kyle, sadly Sandy will not prompt two “sharply divergent” views of how society should respond. Those of you that still actually believe there is a fundamental difference between the republican and democratic parties, or their presidential candidates would like to believe that there are two “sharply divergent” views being kicked around, but there is really just two shades of the same view – the big government view. On one hand we have republicans who have virtually NO respect for the free market but like to pretend they do when it serves their candidacy, and democrats who have absolutely NO respect for the free market when it serves their candidacy but love it immensely when it gets them the big house, the new iPad, the cup of Starbucks, a generally functioning society despite all the socialist/fascist governmental involvement, etc.
The OWS folks have correctly identified a serious problem in our society – big business/corporatism. We do not have behemoth corporations because the free market has blessed them with much business. They are huge because government intervention, either in the form of regulations that impede their competition, easy money from the Federal Reserve, tariffs against foreign competition, taxes that hurt their competition, cushy government contracts, direct subsidies, or similar actions have enabled them to gain an upper hand or have destroyed the competition that would have kept their prices low and their excesses in check. Sadly these folks confuse corporatism with the free market, but they are not alone. If they would bother to educate themselves and understand the difference, they would be a great force for freedom in this country.
The republicans suffer from the same distorted view of the economy. They express support for big business without apology, but cannot recognize that republican-supported policies have little or nothing to do with the free market. Insurance is a great example. While insurance is the right mechanism for hedging one’s bets against natural disasters, proper signals from insurance companies require a truly free and competitive market. Low cost government flood insurance – that most republicans applaud – creates a moral hazard that encourages folks to live in flood-prone areas against common sense. A free market insurance provider would charge rates that would make such construction prohibitively expensive – problem solved. But in their quest for greater property tax revenues and to buy the votes of local developers, republicans and democrats alike on city councils and in state legislatures demand coverage of these areas by the flood insurance programs so that houses can be built and mortgage-holders will be willing to lend to unsuspecting homeowners (all while the taxpayer picks up the tab). Republicans do not favor a free market in insurance either, often being a party to state mandates on insurance coverage, restrictions on insurance company operations, and restrictions on interstate sales of insurance. Big government solutions, quite apart from a free market, are routinely supported by republicans of all stripes (including so-called conservatives – big war and empire come immediately to mind).
Yes, there are plenty of folks who advocate a truly voluntary, cooperative solution to all of society’s problems, but they have no voice in either the democratic or republican parties. Well, they thought they had a voice with Ron Paul, but republican leadership and the Mitt Romney/big corporatism machine shut that effort down. They find great sympathy in the Libertarian Party, but ballot access laws and other bi-partisan collusion works to make their success impossible. Tragically, when the party that is supposed to be “pro free market” cannot tell the difference between corporatism and free market capitalism, then freedom for all Americans is doomed. That is the situation in which we find ourselves today.
Master (de)Bater
October 31st, 2012
3:45 pm
Finn @ 3:15 pm
“Condi now says to stop jumping to conclusions on Benghazi.
She must be a RINO?”
Ha! Would repeatedly stating for the record that the Bengazi attack was caused by a video before we actually KNEW that be the “jumping to conclusions” we shouldn’t DO? Maybe state only what we know, huh? But you wouldn’t like that! The O admin certainly didn’t.
“How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.” (Luke 6:42 NIV)
Master (de)Bater
October 31st, 2012
3:49 pm
Benghazi. Sorry.
Dusty
October 31st, 2012
3:51 pm
YOU DON’T SAY, 3:42
Of course I was a prodigy!! First one out the birdnest.
Why are you still living in your mother’s basement?.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 31st, 2012
3:59 pm
Well, they thought they had a voice with Ron Paul, but republican leadership and the Mitt Romney/big corporatism machine shut that effort down.
———
No, Ron Paul failed to gain enough support to stay in the race and win the nomination. Ron Paul had the decency to step aside upon that realization. Too bad so many of his supporters don’t have the same classiness and instead cry and run home with their ball.
Jiggle the Handle
October 31st, 2012
4:06 pm
Master @3:25
“I think Chris Christie is one of the strongest American leaders I’ve seen in a long time, and he puts our current president to shame most of the time. ”
Well, obviously I agree only partially. Christie is a strong leader and I appreciate the fact he seems to operate completely without any filter when he speaks his mind. For a politician to do that is exceedingly rare– so rare that his words and style appear disarmingly refreshing and there is a tendency to attach a higher level of candor or truth to everything he says. I don’t think that’s the case. He’s wrong as often as he is right. As they say, “you can can have your own opinion, but not your own facts.”
I think Christie has the makings of a great populist candidate if he can manage to avoid the rigid ideology of the Right Wing Crazies that currently defines the Republican Party. However, it remains to be seen if his bombastic and often bullying style lends itself to effective governing.
I’ll take “Cool Hand Obama” over Christie any day. My Grandmother used to say “an empty wagon always rattles the loudest.”
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 31st, 2012
4:07 pm
Aside from the kook blaming Sandy on the gays, how about this guy?
• It’s an excuse for the government to take your guns! Cam Edwards, a spokesman for the National Rifle Association (NRA), went on conspiracy-monger Glenn Beck’s TV show Monday to warn not about the cause of the storm — but rather the way he says the Obama administration will use it.
alternet.org
You don't say
October 31st, 2012
4:11 pm
Dusty
Thanks for confirming you lie.
It seems to come easy for you.
Speaking of “typical”………….
You don't say
October 31st, 2012
4:14 pm
And like to do so……..
Bet it comes honest…………….. And that is certainly the irony of it all.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 31st, 2012
4:15 pm
Christie might be able to beat Hillary in 2016. We will probably find out.
Their respective 2016 campaigns start next Wednesday.
mwuahahahahahhaha
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
October 31st, 2012
4:22 pm
hillary’s not enough of a clown to be a dummycrat presidential kandidate, although she comes awfully close.
Nope, gonna be biden in 2016.
Trying to unseat President Romney, what a spectacle that will be, hahahaha.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
October 31st, 2012
4:26 pm
biden holds forth in Florida today, telling the good and decent people out to get a good laugh at his rally that the Cleveland Plains Dealer is their number one newspaper.
This dude’s a professional democrat.
JDW
October 31st, 2012
4:28 pm
@Finn…”Their respective 2016 campaigns start next Wednesday.”
Naw they will wait until Friday…it will take that long for the Repugnican Nation to stop looking like this…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS7nqwGt4-I
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 31st, 2012
4:34 pm
Hillary will be almost 70 in 2016, and I’m not sure she wants to take on President Romney’s re-election campaign at that age.
You don't say
October 31st, 2012
4:38 pm
Tiberius
Do you have the winning numbers for the lottery tonight?
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
October 31st, 2012
4:39 pm
I doubt if the dummycrats are scouring the back alleys of Kenya for their 2016 nominee, like they did in 2008.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
October 31st, 2012
4:41 pm
biden will be one oh four in 2016 and probably just as sharp as he is now.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 31st, 2012
4:43 pm
You don’t say, at some point you might recognize a bit of whimsy or humor, but I suspect not in your current lifetime.
That’s what the little winky face denotes, blowhard.
You don't say
October 31st, 2012
4:46 pm
Tiberius
Don’t cry like a little baby. You have asked the same exact question before when left leaning bloggers have made claims about Obama winning.
Are you not able to take what you give? Based on the lottery question alone, it appears not.
But do cry on.
Notice the little smiley face, blowhard
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 31st, 2012
4:50 pm
“You have asked the same exact question before when left leaning bloggers have made claims about Obama winning.”
Yes, I have. But those posts have NOT been done in the same fashion as I did, but rather, as absolute statements of unknown fact by those posters.
So move on, blowhard. If you cannot understand the English language, I suggest you go back to school and learn it properly this time.
You don't say
October 31st, 2012
4:54 pm
Cry on Tiberius, cry on
At least you are consistent.
You don't say
October 31st, 2012
4:57 pm
And get your last word in so you can feel better about yourself
Blowhard
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
October 31st, 2012
5:06 pm
Anybody else remember how the libs screeched and wailed on Valerie Plame, a CIA agent hiding in the US, well, except for when she was doing magazine photo shoots, had her name “outed,” but the exact same libs haven’t a peep for the treasonous abandonment of Benghazi?
Their shame knows no boundary.
Sick of Progs
October 31st, 2012
5:09 pm
You don’t say
October 31st, 2012
3:42 pm
“At that time I changed from demanding care, control and cuisine from everybody else and started my own realization.”
You cooked for yourself at 3? Drove yourself around? Paid for your own housing, clothes, etc? And on and on.
WOW.
You were some kind of prodigy. Congratulations.
And just to think, O’budgetless and his ho have personal chefs, travel planners, chauffers, wardrobe managers, propagandists, dog washers etc. Pretty good for a 3 year old!
Sick of Progs
October 31st, 2012
5:11 pm
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin…
October 31st, 2012
4:39 pm
I doubt if the dummycrats are scouring the back alleys of Kenya for their 2016 nominee, like they did in 2008.
Nope, they’re out combing the pineapple fields of Hawaii!
Sick of Progs
October 31st, 2012
5:13 pm
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin…
October 31st, 2012
4:41 pm
biden will be one oh four in 2016 and probably just as sharp as he is now.
He!!, how do you dumb down an 84 IQ? Get him a dribble bib.