Hurricane Sandy prompts two sharply divergent views on how society should respond
It’s been a while since we’ve heard from Occupy Wall Street, the group alleged to be the left’s answer to the tea party. But you might hear more about these messages yesterday from the group expressing apparent approval of the wrecked state of New York City post-Hurricane Sandy:
No subways. No electricity. No chains. #capitalism #sandy #nyc
I don’t think the person tweeting from the OWS account really believes things would be better in a world with so much physical destruction (although, in light of the way OWS treated the Manhattan park where it held its famous rallies last year, I may be giving him/her too much credit). I do, however, think these messages betray an astounding lack of recognition that free-market capitalism is the most accurate system mankind has yet devised to represent how members of a community want to interact with one another.
So, when OWS tweets,”Insurance is the capitalist answer to what should be an effort of mutual aid from the community. #sandy,” while philosophizing, “That community you’re experiencing, in the face of crisis? It’s always there. Think about what it is that usually obscures it. #sandy,” it’s missing the point that people usually don’t “experience” “community” in this way because they’d prefer to make other arrangements and not live like the world is collapsing around them. Arrangements such as insurance.
But whither government? After all, liberals like to say government is “simply the name we give to the things we choose to do together.” That sentiment, however, suggests everyone is always on board with what government takes from them and does on their behalf. The more government does, the less that’s true.
Back to the topic at hand: That doesn’t mean conservatives think government should be out of the disaster-relief business altogether — even if some of us think government should refrain from some other spending and set that money aside to make sure we don’t have to borrow money to cover these expenses, while others believe the more local and state governments can handle emergency management, the better it will be done. (Not to mention that the private sector is often quicker and more efficient in delivering aid than government agencies, as Wal-Mart famously demonstrated in post-Katrina New Orleans.)
This topic tends not to get the thoughtful treatment it deserves in the midst of a crisis, and then it’s usually forgotten once the crisis leaves the headlines. So, we get broad claims about Mitt Romney’s alleged heartlessness based on one brief segment of one interview in which he promoted a federalist approach to disaster relief. Which is about as fair as it would be for me now to point out that President Obama has said nice things in the past about OWS and argue he must necessarily subscribe to its anti-capitalist view of how the world works.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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331 comments Add your comment
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 31st, 2012
12:48 pm
You can build all of Nashville with a few 2×4’s, some sheetrock and a coat of latex.
And a couple of gee-tars. Don’t forget them gee-tars.
iggy
October 31st, 2012
12:50 pm
“Wrong…its because unlike Katrina the government was prepared and has won nothing but praise from those invovled.”
Agreed. During Katrina, State and Local Govt failed miserably.
The Gov of LA and Mayor of NO refused to request help from the Feds until after all hell had broken loose and found they needed a scapegoat on which to lay their stupidity.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 31st, 2012
12:50 pm
A close friend’s grandparents were living in Nashville at that time. They weren’t paying attention to the news and decided to drive out to dinner. They got washed away in their car and drowned.
teaching taxpayer
October 31st, 2012
12:51 pm
@cc, FYI, the reports of snipers shooting at rescue workers and police in NOLA after Katrina are almost certainly an urban myth.
iggy
October 31st, 2012
12:51 pm
“They got washed away in their car and drowned.”
Well I guess they wont make that mistake again…DOH!
iggy
October 31st, 2012
12:52 pm
@tt. Most certianly they are not urban myth.
NEXT!!
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 31st, 2012
12:52 pm
now iggy, the state and local governments didn’t deliver toxic FEMA trailers to those citizens.
You have to admit putting Brownie in that position was about as smart as trying to put Harriet Myers on the Supreme Court.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 31st, 2012
12:53 pm
Haven’t you learned by now that insulting people with a legitimate disability is low, very low.
———-
So you think being a liberal is a legitimate disability? I’d put it in the same class as alcoholism–a personality flaw.
iggy
October 31st, 2012
12:58 pm
Something yet addressed that has me very worried. I was curious if anyone has seen the reports on Snooki, “The Situation”, J Bow Wow and the others? Did they make it thru the hurricane ok? It would be a shame to loose such national treasures.
Randy Ayn
October 31st, 2012
1:02 pm
Yeah, iggy, the big bad mayor of New Orleans stopped the itty-bitty feds from coming into the area and helping after Katrina. Even you can’t believe the things you come up with.
Hillbilly D
October 31st, 2012
1:04 pm
Just as a point of interest, I was watching the TV the other night, forget which channel, and they were talking with local officials in NJ. These officials were talking about people who lived on one of the barrier islands, who had declined to evacuate when they were told to. After things started happening and the rising waters had cut off access to the island, people who had stayed started calling in on cell phones, asking for help. The moral of the story is that no matter where these things occur, there are always going to be some people who don’t use good common sense. That’s just the nature of humans.
It’s kind of pointless to make snide remarks about folks in one place or another, as humans act pretty much the same everywhere.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 31st, 2012
1:06 pm
Comparing Katrina (the storm) to Sandy (the storm) and the devastation each caused is moronic at best. As does trying to compare the responses to each.
The only similarity is that both regions had days of warning to evacuate. New Orleans residents chose to ignore those warnings and didn’t have a much of an alternative to go to even if they had. East Coast residents either heeded the warnings or had better alternatives (as in higher buildings and ground to go to).
What people forget about the main issue regarding Katrina was that rescue took priority over recovery in that instance, where the reverse is true with Sandy. No amount of preparedness could make up for the incompetence of the local officials and residents of New Orleans, and the physical situation of massive flooding had no solution. It’s not as if you could get large boats into the area due to deeper drafts, so you were limited to smaller boats.
As far as flooding is concerned, most of the remaining flooding just days after Sandy is gone, largely remaining in tunnels underground. The US Army Corps of Engineers are pumping those out as fast as they can, but how do you pump out an entire city / county worth of water following a broken levee? Logic and physical differences in size, scope and elevation says that Katrina’s issues were exponentially worse to address, and couldn’t be undertaken until the people in danger were rescued first.
This is not to say that everything went well, or even acceptable in the case of the Federal response to Katrina, but to compare it to the response to Sandy displays a lack of intelligence all too frequently seen on this blog.
iggy
October 31st, 2012
1:07 pm
Nice try Randy…
NEXT!
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 31st, 2012
1:14 pm
Regarding the divergent views: So, some of you think we should have 50 FEMA-type institutions – one for each state – instead of a single unit? With all the duplication that would bring in personnel, equipment, resources, etc?
Do we need 50 Marine Corps, each with a full slate of equipment, facilities, and personnel?? Do we need 50 postal service systems – each set up differently, some with new computer software, some on decade-old software? Some with up to date training and access to the latest equipment and some a bit lagging?
And if you pass it to the private sector, how/who is going to make money on it? How are we going to treat those who make money off people in dire situations?
ideasbm
October 31st, 2012
1:14 pm
It is how stupid the press is. When Obama had his cabinet behind him and in a televised interview, he told the press I have told the agencies to bypass the red tape and LEAN FORWARD….
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 31st, 2012
1:17 pm
Finn, do you even know what aid, specifically, the government is providing right now?
Michael H. Smith
October 31st, 2012
1:17 pm
Liberals do so hate any idea whatsoever of a weak central Federal government of limited size and powers that is subject to the near unlimited powers of State governments.
Signified
October 31st, 2012
1:23 pm
Why is it always “us vs. them” with you, Kyle? Typical right-wing divisive ‘wedge’ style analysis, day i and day out. Capitalism isn’t “all good” and everything else isn’t “all bad” – an intellectually honest reading of history and reality bears that out, but all you care about is 51% of America, and you think everyone else should just shut up and fall in line. Pathetic, and intellectually bankrupt.
Oh, and by the way – if you think the US economy is truly a “free market”, you need to go back to college. At best it is a highly (and very imbalanced) regulated-for-specific-industries-and-outcomes market (not free at all), and at worst, it is a Plutocracy. You do know what that means, right? You should – it is the natural end result of your regularly simplistic take on policy.
Kyle Wingfield
October 31st, 2012
1:29 pm
Gotta love someone who asks why it’s “always ‘us vs. them’ ” with me, then goes on to ascribe it to “typical right-wing divisive ‘wedge’ style analysis.” Sounds like someone has an unacknowledged “us vs. them” problem of their own.
stands for decibels
October 31st, 2012
1:30 pm
President Obama has said nice things in the past about OWS
ok, you made me look. Here’s what he’s quoted as saying:
“I understand the frustrations being expressed in those protests,” Obama told ABC News senior White House correspondent Jake Tapper in the interview to air this evening on ABC News “Nightline” from Jamestown, N.C.
“In some ways, they’re not that different from some of the protests that we saw coming from the Tea Party. Both on the left and the right, I think people feel separated from their government. They feel that their institutions aren’t looking out for them,” he said.
Just to be nitpicky, because that’s what I do–this is only a “nice thing” to say about OWS if you happen to believe that the Tea Partiers have been especially justified in their protests.
If, on the other hand, you think Tea Partiers are (say) a whiny bunch of ill-informed ingrates, it’s not all that nice, really.
Darwin
October 31st, 2012
1:31 pm
Isn’t it true that disaster relief has gone to million dollar homes built on the shores of N.C. and other coastal areas hit by hurricanes? They build on high risk properties and get bailed out by the government each time a storm blows it down. And then they build it again. Just asking.
Randy Ayn
October 31st, 2012
1:32 pm
Yeah, Kyle – divisive liberals – or, “libtards” as the right likes to call them, in their non-divisive way.
Kyle Wingfield
October 31st, 2012
1:33 pm
stands: I was referring to the “we are on their side” part.
stands for decibels
October 31st, 2012
1:36 pm
Kyle, so you mean this…
“The most important thing we can do right now is those of us in leadership letting people know that we understand their struggles and we are on their side, and that we want to set up a system in which hard work, responsibility, doing what you’re supposed to do, is rewarded,” Obama said. “And that people who are irresponsible, who are reckless, who don’t feel a sense of obligation to their communities and their companies and their workers that those folks aren’t rewarded.”
That would appear to be addressing a much larger group of people than just OWS, but I get your overall point, thanks.
cc
October 31st, 2012
1:36 pm
“FYI, the reports of snipers shooting at rescue workers and police in NOLA after Katrina are almost certainly an urban myth.”
FYI, you can SAY that if you weren’t one of the people actually being SHOT at by the poor, poor, pitiful victims . . .
Dunwoody
October 31st, 2012
1:38 pm
Government done locally is always better. Why, we in Dunwoody formerly had to look all the way to Decatur to see Dekalb County’s incompetent leadership, whereas, now we only have to go a few blocks to see the City of Dunwoody’s incompetent leadership. It’s just more convenient.
hsn
October 31st, 2012
1:39 pm
Michael “You’re doing a heck of a job” Brown actually claimed Obama acted “too quickly” when he cancelled campaign events to help with hurricane Sandy relief efforts.
http://www.thedaily.com/article/2012/10/30/103012-news-brown-sandy/
What is wrong with you, right-wing nutcases? Kyle “Republican cheer-leading” Wingfield, how do you defend this? Even when the President does a great job in times of crises some con artist has to try to make him look bad. Are you guys that desperate? How many Republican Chris Christies exist today?
Kyle Wingfield
October 31st, 2012
1:41 pm
Randy: Yes, divisive liberals. The kind who say things like:
“Punch back twice as hard.”
Let’s “punish our enemies.”
“She is a typical white person…”
“I want you to argue with them and get in their face[s].”
Divisive things like that.
curious
October 31st, 2012
1:43 pm
How can Obama be running 1+ trillion $ deficits when it’s Congress that appropriates the $ ?
Kyle Wingfield
October 31st, 2012
1:44 pm
hsn: Why do you think it’s my job to defend, or not, anything that someone, somewhere, has said?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 31st, 2012
1:47 pm
hsn, if the President can allegedly get his National Security briefings remotely (as many liberals on here defended) and if he had no problem going to sleep the night his ambassador to Libya was being murdered, then jetting off to Las Vegas for a campaign rally just hours following that, why must he be in Washington, D.C. to coordinate Sandy relief?
It’s not as if he’s on the front lines doing the work.
Master (de)Bater
October 31st, 2012
1:54 pm
Kyle @ 12:07 pm
I’m with Tiberius (at least I think it was him) that this, like governance, is best when the is balance built in to the system. These kinds of things should be handled partly BOTH ways, just like representation in the house and senate. In the Senate, each state is equally represented, and in the House each state is represented according to how large it is. In cases like this, there should be state-based, more federalistic relief, with states that have more disaster issues (i.e. CA, FL, LA, gulf states, etc.) where the state is responsible for getting a reasonable amount of disaster $ from its own citizens. However, the nature of natural disasters is that they can surprise, and so there should ALSO be relief that is centralized so that we all contribute to a degree. I think this kind of balanced approach is most consistent with the principles followed by our founding fathers. Wouldn’t you agree?
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 31st, 2012
1:55 pm
we want to set up a system in which hard work, responsibility, doing what you’re supposed to do, is rewarded,” Obama said.
———–
When did it become government’s job to reward legal/constitutional behavior they like and punish behavior they don’t like?
Oh, right, when liberal fascists gained power.
@@
October 31st, 2012
1:56 pm
Some truth to what the OWSers tweeted.
I can recall working with the community of Sunnyside after the 2011 tornado. Government agents were armed and ready with a table, papers & chairs.
From what I could see, not many people engaged the red tape brigade. Too much work to be done.
Kyle Wingfield
October 31st, 2012
1:58 pm
Master @ 1:54: I wouldn’t argue with most of that or what Tiberius posted earlier.
Randy Ayn
October 31st, 2012
1:58 pm
All inclusive conservatives- like “the moochers vs. the producers” or not needing to care about 47% of the population? Like there are no hard working, decent people who happen to live on the wrong side of town. Oh, and run that “libtards” label past your hero, Sarah Palin, and see how well it goes over.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 31st, 2012
2:00 pm
I doubt that Sarah Palin considers herself a libtard.
Get a grip.
Kyle Wingfield
October 31st, 2012
2:01 pm
Randy: My point was that both sides do this stuff. And you’ve never seen me use the word “libtard” myself. If you want to know why I allow it on the comments threads, see No. 2 on this list.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 31st, 2012
2:03 pm
All for a photo op…
The Romney campaign changed a planned campaign event in Dayton, Ohio into a Hurricane Sandy “storm relief event,” but due to the last-minute change was left spending $5,000 at Walmart for “donations” to put on display.
~Buzzfeed
Kyle Wingfield
October 31st, 2012
2:06 pm
Finn: As opposed to Obama’s tour of NJ today? C’mon, man. Both sides are playing this game. We’re six days out from Election Day.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 31st, 2012
2:08 pm
The left really do want Americans to have a lower standard of living than we now enjoy. The fringe, OWS for example, are honest about it and know that Obozo is their guy. The mainstream left want the policies that will deliver that lower standard of living but aren’t smart enough to see where they lead. Obozo is their guy, too.
God help us if they outnumber Americans next Tuesday.
Vote American.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right
October 31st, 2012
2:08 pm
Ah, yes. Buzzfeed. The same site with the dopey ” reporter ” saying there was a 40% chance Romney would say something stupid.
Great pick, Finn.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 31st, 2012
2:09 pm
Kyle’s favorite song:
“If Lovin’ Mitt is Wrong, I Don’t Wanna Be Right>”
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 31st, 2012
2:11 pm
” reporter ” saying there was a 40% chance Romney would say something stupid.
LOL, I missed that. Romnay still has 6 days to play footsie in mouthie again.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right
October 31st, 2012
2:17 pm
Yeah Finn, and a good thing Obama at the Red cross yesterday wasn’t a photo op . . .
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 31st, 2012
2:18 pm
God help us if they outnumber Americans next Tuesday.
Ahh, you made it through the first 4 with all 20 fingers/toes (and 3 teeth). You’ll be ok for the next 4.
Master (de)Bater
October 31st, 2012
2:18 pm
David c @ 12:41 pm
“Leave it to libtards to think insurance companies should cover losses they weren’t contracted to cover. Morons.”
You mean libtards like Trent Lott?
So you too see how ridiculously even Trent Lott thinks when he starts thinking like a liberal, even for a moment!
@@
October 31st, 2012
2:21 pm
I can empathize.
Bronco Bama?
Too cute.
Signified
October 31st, 2012
2:24 pm
Nice try, Kyle, but you wrote the article with an “us and them” slant, and you almost always have that slant. I was just pointing it out, and pointing out that the right wing is the master of wedge issue politics (abortion, gay rights, voting rights, immigration… it’s a long list). You haven’t heard any of my take on it because I’m not writing the article, you are. I should say “editorial”, because you don’t write news, just opinion (which is fine, and probably sells, but it isn’t news and it isn’t fact).
And of course you ignored the important question – which is whether you think we actually live in a Free Market economy. I would avoid that one if I were you, also.
Beyond The Middle of the Road
October 31st, 2012
2:26 pm
Of course insurance companies shouldn’t be asked to pay more than what they’re contracted to cover. The insurance companies argued that the storm surge from the Hurricane constituted a flood which is not covered by most homeowners’ policies. Lott and others claimed that the wind caused the surge, and wind is a covered peril under almost all policies. So they were arguing over a technicality.