How Obamacare is making it harder to find a full-time job
The drag Obamacare has had on the economy has been hard to quantify in the two-plus years since it became law, because so many of its economy- and job-altering provisions had yet to be written. But that’s changing, and the law’s negative impact on the economy is becoming clearer. The Washington Post’s Robert Samuelson explains one of the ways: the law’s exemption for part-time employees and its definition of what counts as “part time”:
In September, 34 million workers, about a quarter of total workers, were part-time, reports the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS). But the BLS defines part-time as less than 35 hours a week; Obamacare’s 30 hours a week was presumably adopted to expand insurance coverage. There are now 10 million workers averaging between 30 and 34 hours a week. To the BLS, they are part-time; under Obamacare, they’re full-time.
Employers have a huge incentive to hold workers under the 30-hour weekly threshold. The requirement to provide insurance above that acts as a steep employment tax. Companies will try to minimize the tax. The most vulnerable workers are the poorest and least skilled who can be most easily replaced and for whom insurance costs loom largest. Indeed, the adjustment has already started.
As first reported in the Orlando Sentinel, Darden Restaurants — owners of about 2,000 outlets including the Red Lobster and Olive Garden chains — is studying ways to shift more employees under the 30-hour ceiling. About three-quarters of its 185,000 workers are already under, says spokesman Rich Jeffers. The question is “can we go higher and still deliver a great [eating] experience.” The financial stakes are sizable. Suppose Darden moves 1,000 servers under 30 hours and avoids paying $5,000 insurance for each. The annual savings: $5 million.
Samuelson notes there are downsides for companies to have employees working fewer hours: The jobs may become less attractive, turnover may increase and, with it, training costs may rise. But the evidence clearly shows that even many employed Americans are still looking for more work because all they can find is part-time work.
In any case, his broader point, to which I subscribe, is that the economy isn’t strong enough — hasn’t been for a few years now — to withstand this kind of unnecessarily, artificially created uncertainty. Businesses always operate with uncertain market conditions, but they don’t need government adding to this uncertainty by passing laws that muddle the labor market — and thereby undermine the entire point of passing the law in the first place.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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164 comments Add your comment
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
11:13 am
Exactly, Kyle.
A store I help out in part-time just upped the hours needed to get benefits from 25 to 30 hours per week. Doesn’t affect me but there will be at least one employee per store in this chain losing their healthcare coverage.
Add to that, the penalties for employers to not cover employees are smaller than the cost to provide healthcare, and you’re going to see massive dropping of coverages in 2014 and beyond (except that President Romney will repeal the law and replace it with something that actually works).
catlady
October 22nd, 2012
11:20 am
And let’s forget about the fact that it is THE EMPLOYEES who do the work that makes the money for the company!
Ben
October 22nd, 2012
11:26 am
My buddy is starting a new business. He’s a hard core Obama guy, but now is whining because the new rules for small businesses significantly affect who he can hire. He said college kids looking for part-time jobs waiting and busing tables can forget it, there’s no place for them anymore.
More college debt, seems to be a good aim for Obama. That way even more young adults will be completely owned by the government.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 22nd, 2012
11:28 am
Seemed to work in Massachusetts ok.
kay
October 22nd, 2012
11:29 am
I call BS… just like when the gas rises, the companies give us the bill. We pay more for goods and services to cover the increase. (been grocery shopping lately?). The businesses will definitely NOT shoot themselves in the foot by hiring less employees, they will however pay the employee less in order to offset the additional cost. So yes, salaries will drop some, which is a problem, but at least get the PROBLEM right.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 22nd, 2012
11:31 am
The drag Obamacare has had on the economy has been hard to quantify in the two-plus years since it became law
BTW. Thats a very open minded way to open your article.
Halftrack
October 22nd, 2012
11:33 am
This is just the tip of the fiscalberg under Obummercare. Seniors with medicare etc. will be limited to Healthcare. Physicians of all stripes will be affected. Also Taxes will touch all of us in unintended ways. The less people work, the less that the unworking can be sustained, as well as taxes paid to the government. It is easier for 10 people to pay off a debt; than 7 or less people can get extinguish the same debt. It’s about jobs and taxes and our Country’s survival.
MarkV
October 22nd, 2012
11:34 am
According to Kyle, Obamacare is a bad program because it defines part time differently than BLS, and that makes some employers reduce the numbers of hours part time workers would be allowed to work. Repeal the law!
Is Kyle really incapable of finding a simpler way to fix that problem than to repeal the law, if this really becomes a problem?
Matz
October 22nd, 2012
11:37 am
Who pays for health care for people whose employers are too cheap to provide either a group plan or a wage that empowers people to afford health insurance? We do.
http://www.goodjobsfirst.org/corporate-subsidy-watch/hidden-taxpayer-costs
Biggest group of Peach Care recipients in Georgia? WalMart employees. Thanks, WalMart, for giving us low low prices by keeping your non-management workers under full time and ineligible to participate in an insurance program. Know who gets tons of FOOD STAMPS too? WalMart employees. (Save a buck on cheap garbage made in China so the Walton family can enjoy their $100 billion while we subsidize the cashiers’ dinner tables!)
Looking forward to the Rmoney plan of getting Americans back to work: Competing with foreign factories to which HE outsourced American jobs, by convincing American workers to give it their all for $10 a day and no access to decent medical care. Wooo-HOOOOO! Life is gonna be good when we got nothin’ left to lose, won’t it?
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 22nd, 2012
11:41 am
Matz, excellent points!
Just Saying..
October 22nd, 2012
11:42 am
“BTW. Thats a very open minded way to open your article.”
Fun-ney!
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 22nd, 2012
11:42 am
A store I help out in part-time
ummm, StarshipEnterprises?
mwuahahahaha
BW
October 22nd, 2012
11:44 am
What a sad state of affairs that we don’t want to give workers benefits in near minimum wage jobs that don’t work full time as it is. To me, 40 hours a week is full time but they were at 35 hours or less without benefits and now they will be under 30 hours a week without benefits. So if there aren’t already working two part-time jobs without benefits, they more than likely will be. Again these are not high paying jobs…what kind of jobs should we strive to create in this country? What is the endgame here? Is this really a good thing for the long term future of this country?
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 22nd, 2012
11:46 am
Employers will take advantage of the soft employment market – that’s a given. But as the economy improves and more people go back to work, needed workers will be in more demand and the labor market will get more competitive.
In the meantime, those healthcare-less employees will be using the emergency rooms and calling in sick more often.
People just need to keep adding to their skill sets and they will be among those in need.
Kyle Wingfield
October 22nd, 2012
11:47 am
Cheesy: This is an opinion blog. I am an opinion writer. I have written negatively about Obamacare many times before. Stop pretending you were expecting something else.
Matz
October 22nd, 2012
11:50 am
Flashback: “We’re not going to let our campaign be dictated by fact-checkers,” said Neil Newhouse, a Romney pollster.
Don’t know why I was just reminded of that.
BoneHead
October 22nd, 2012
11:52 am
Kay, the gas companies make about 8 cents a gallon on gas, our goverment makes twice that on a gallon of gas, so who are the greedy ones?
Cherokee
October 22nd, 2012
11:54 am
What Matz said.
Kyle Wingfield
October 22nd, 2012
11:54 am
kay: Well, if they “will definitely NOT” do that, we have to ask: Why are some of them doing it now?
Maybe because few companies have the kind of pricing power to make your theory work in practice.
JDW
October 22nd, 2012
11:56 am
Talk about reaching for straws…in the year ended this past May Darden had revenue of about $8 billion and EBIT of $638 million…do you really think they will risk the service levels to save $5 million? My guess is they will study and do nothing new.
On the other hand if you are worried about penny ante decisions you make a great case for removing the employer from the equation completely. Of course the way to do that would be a public option as does the rest of the economically advantaged world.
td
October 22nd, 2012
11:56 am
Let us not forget that if you sell your house after Jan. 1 you will pay a 3.8% Obamacare tax on the sell.
Kyle Wingfield
October 22nd, 2012
11:56 am
MarkV: Since it’s so obvious to you, please, share with us.
Kyle Wingfield
October 22nd, 2012
11:59 am
Matz @ 11:37: So, please, explain why you would expect employers to react in any way other than this? How was Obamacare ever going to work when the disincentives for providing health insurance were so obvious?
Oh, and btw: If it doesn’t work, guess who’s still paying for the uninsured? We are. So what problem does it solve?
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 22nd, 2012
11:59 am
Cheesy: This is an opinion blog. I am an opinion writer. I have written negatively about Obamacare many times before. Stop pretending you were expecting something else.
I wasn’t.
The point was to make sure people know you aren’t objective.
Your mind is made up on this issue right or wrong.
I think you are wrong and so does the rest of the free world that enjoys Universal Healthcare.
Matz
October 22nd, 2012
12:00 pm
“Let us not forget that if you sell your house after Jan. 1 you will pay a 3.8% Obamacare tax on the sell.”
Let’s not forget that the 3.8% is only applied to the amount of the sale AFTER the first $250,000 (or $500,000 for married couples.) That being said, if you can sell my house for $251,000, I’ll kiss your behind and give you thirty minutes to draw a crowd.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
12:01 pm
According to MarkV, writing about just one of so many issues with Obamacare is worthy of belittling the point Kyle is trying to make, completely forgetting that the other issues are still there with which to make the case for repeal.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 22nd, 2012
12:01 pm
Let us not forget that if you sell your house after Jan. 1 you will pay a 3.8% Obamacare tax on the sell.
Not factual in any way.
http://blogs.rgj.com/factchecker/2012/06/17/obamacare-sales-tax-on-houses/
Kyle Wingfield
October 22nd, 2012
12:02 pm
“Your mind is made up on this issue right or wrong.”
As is yours, Cheesy. My blog is clearly labeled “opinion.” Maybe you should issue a disclaimer for yourself.
iggy
October 22nd, 2012
12:03 pm
Yes…OBlunder and OBlundercare are wrecking havoc and we are seeing only the tip of the iceberg.
Kyle Wingfield
October 22nd, 2012
12:04 pm
JDW @ 11:56: Yes, then we can simply shift the collection of health premiums from the employer to the tax man, and push total federal tax rates into the 40s or 50s. Which, of course, is how it’s done in the rest of the economically advantaged world.
adam smith's invisible hand
October 22nd, 2012
12:07 pm
Vote for Romney. Then, if you have a child that’s born with some sort of health problem, your employer can fire you and get your expensive behind off the company’s health insurance plan. You won’t be able to find insurance at an affordable cost anywhere else, but maybe you have some family members you can call on willing to mortgage their homes to help pay for care. Or, you could just let the kid die. I mean, at least you wouldn’t be guilty of getting an abortion (and you won’t be able to get one of those if Romney wins).
adam smith's invisible hand
October 22nd, 2012
12:09 pm
Also, if Romney wins, my fellow seniors better get ready to give up Medicare and get a voucher instead. We’ll see how well that works.
cc
October 22nd, 2012
12:10 pm
ObamaCare is not and never was about healthcare. Obama, Pelosi, Reed and company don’t give a rat’s rear end about anyone’s health. This legislation was and is about GOVERNMENT CONTROL, and more specifically about DEMOCRAT CONTROL.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 22nd, 2012
12:11 pm
Kyle
Do you know what the top tax rates were under Eisenhower?
If you said 91 percent you would be right.
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=213
Seems to me we have been lowering taxes on the rich for quite some time now. Still waiting for that trickle down effect.
Meanwhile our debt has exploded.
Coincidence ???
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
12:11 pm
adam smith could apply to the Obama campaign as Stephanie Cutter’s replacement.
He doesn’t know Romney’s stances any more than she does.
td
October 22nd, 2012
12:11 pm
Kyle Wingfield
October 22nd, 2012
12:04 pm
JDW @ 11:56: Yes, then we can simply shift the collection of health premiums from the employer to the tax man, and push total federal tax rates into the 40s or 50s. Which, of course, is how it’s done in the rest of the economically advantaged world.
Do not forget those VAT’s added on a Federal level in a great deal of the world in addition to those higher tax rates.
adam smith's invisible hand
October 22nd, 2012
12:11 pm
Kyle “Which, of course, is how it’s done in the rest of the economically advantaged world.”
Well, I sure wouldn’t want us to be like the rest of the economically advantaged world. I think we ought to have a system more like the third world country we’ll become if Romney gets elected.
adam smith's invisible hand
October 22nd, 2012
12:12 pm
Tiberius – nobody knows Romney’s stances. They’re all over the map. We do know the GOP platform, however.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
12:13 pm
“Meanwhile our debt has exploded.
Coincidence ???”
No, just gross mismanagement and unchecked spending at the Federal level, Cheesy.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 22nd, 2012
12:14 pm
Also, if Romney wins, my fellow seniors better get ready to give up Medicare and get a voucher instead.
Thats why I cant imagine Florida going to Romney.
Those Seniors are going to get out and vote and when they get into that booth Romney is going to scare them right back to Obama.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 22nd, 2012
12:15 pm
No, just gross mismanagement and unchecked spending at the Federal level, Cheesy.
Mostly by Republican Administrations.
Reagan quadrupled the national debt.
Drudge
October 22nd, 2012
12:16 pm
Cheesy – now run that stat next to the graph that shows medicare, medicaid, education, SS and DOA public assistance and see if you see a stronger correlation…
Plain and simple – Obama’s tax hike on the wealthy would be $500BN amortized over a decade – let’s say $50BN/year. That is 4% of Obama’s deficit spending alone. Doesn’t even touch the debt. If it WAS applied to the national debt – it would be .03%. That’s Obama’s plan. .03%. Or…4% towards his pet projects – doesn’t even cover what we lost in 30 something green energy loans we have lost lately.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 22nd, 2012
12:18 pm
He doesn’t know Romney’s stances any more than she does.
Or any more than Romney does for that matter.
They call him Multiple Choice Mitt for a reason.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
12:18 pm
“Tiberius – nobody knows Romney’s stances.”
He does. I do.
“They’re all over the map.”
No, they are not. Only in the so-called “minds” of people who use DNC talking points and slate.com as their sources of information.
“We do know the GOP platform, however.”
And we know that there is not a single nominee in the history of American politics who believes in their party’s platform 100%.
td
October 22nd, 2012
12:18 pm
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 22nd, 2012
12:14 pm
Also, if Romney wins, my fellow seniors better get ready to give up Medicare and get a voucher instead.
Thats why I cant imagine Florida going to Romney.
Most of your fellow seniors do not believe you because Florida is a Romney state now. FL, NC, and VA are all Romney and the Obama campaign knows it and will not even visit in the next couple weeks. The election is down to OH, Wis, IA, CO, NH and NV.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
12:19 pm
“Thats why I cant imagine Florida going to Romney.”
And yet, internal polling by both campaigns shows Florida going Romney. Too bad for you, Cheesy.
JDW
October 22nd, 2012
12:21 pm
@Kyle…”Yes, then we can simply shift the collection of health premiums from the employer to the tax man, and push total federal tax rates into the 40s or 50s. Which, of course, is how it’s done in the rest of the economically advantaged world.”
It’s just that kind of myopic wrong headed thinking that keeps our per capita health care costs the most expensive in the world…
US…$7690
Canada…$4363
Germany…$4218
France…”$3978
UK…$3487
Psst…we spend more…single payer would REDUCE our expenditures while freeing business to concentrate on more important problems than how to game health insurance costs.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
12:22 pm
” No, just gross mismanagement and unchecked spending at the Federal level, Cheesy.
Mostly by Republican Administrations.”
Not true, Cheesy. CONGRESS is primarily responsible for spending. And our debt has increased 52% during Democrat-controlled Congresses and 48% GOP-controlled Congresses.
So they are BOTH to blame.
adam smith's invisible hand
October 22nd, 2012
12:23 pm
Tiberius – congratulations on being able to read Romney’s true intentions. Sorry, but I don’t believe in ESP or mind readers. I’ll go on the GOP platform’s statements and the history of all his advisors, plus what he says when he’s talking to his base supporters. You mind readers ought to go to Vegas and try to make your fortunes. Whatever you do, however, don’t invest in the stock market of the US if Romney gets elected. Stocks up over 60% under Obama – Down over 25% under the last GOP guy. Maybe you can get your winnings to the Caymans, should your clairvoyance prove real.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 22nd, 2012
12:23 pm
Too bad for you, Cheesy.
Not really. Obama is going to win Ohio.
And that puts Romney in a real bad place. He would have to run off all the tossups after that.
Romney might get close. He might even win the popular vote.
But he will never be President.
Drudge
October 22nd, 2012
12:25 pm
So back to the actual topic – Cheesy the one trick pony – this has absolutely changed how we hire. We used to hire initially as temps – 90 days then convert to permanent. Temp to perm. We don’t do that anymore. We have temps that have been here for 2 years and the reason is pretty straight forward: Obamacare – we don’t know what an employee is going to cost us in 2014. We pay temps a higher hourly, but they get no benefits, no 401k, no PTO, sick leave or holidays paid. The main area of importance: we can let them go at any time for any reason with very little penalty.
Queue the liberal hissy – but this is a fact, an actual real life example here in Midtown from someone who hires a dozen people/year.
Common Sense
October 22nd, 2012
12:25 pm
This has been the objective all along. Force enough off the plans they now have and the demand for a single payer system appears all on it’s own.
JDW
October 22nd, 2012
12:27 pm
@Tiberius…”No, they are not. Only in the so-called “minds” of people who use DNC talking points and slate.com as their sources of information”
PHULEEEEEEEESE…check out this extensive library of Mittens HIMSELF saying one thing, then the other and then yet another…
http://www.google.com/search?q=romney+flip+flops&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&ie=&oe=#q=romney+flip+flops&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&prmd=imvnsu&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ei=8nKFUOv0E5Ke8gSt_YDoBw&ved=0CAwQ_AUoAw&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=9bcecee61b0ddd91&bpcl=35466521&biw=1280&bih=843
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 22nd, 2012
12:27 pm
Not true, Cheesy. CONGRESS is primarily responsible for spending. And our debt has increased 52% during Democrat-controlled Congresses and 48% GOP-controlled Congresses.
So they are BOTH to blame.
Republicans controlled the white house the majority of that time and had to sign those budgets did they not ?
In fact for the majority of time Reagan was in office his budget had more spending in it than the ones coming for a Democratic Congress.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
12:27 pm
“Psst…we spend more…single payer would REDUCE our expenditures”
Psssst . . . single payer only shifts who pays the bills – it doesn’t change the bills at all, JDW.
JDW
October 22nd, 2012
12:28 pm
@Drudge…”The main area of importance: we can let them go at any time for any reason with very little penalty.”
Which you could do anyway…lie to yourself if you like but don’t expect anyone with any sense to believe you.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 22nd, 2012
12:30 pm
Cheesy the one trick pony – this has absolutely changed how we hire. We used to hire initially as temps – 90 days then convert to permanent. Temp to perm. We don’t do that anymore. We have temps that have been here for 2 years and the reason is pretty straight forward:
We still do that all the time. Temp to perm.
Nothing has changed.
Maybe if your business isn’t doing very well you should stop blaming the government and look in the mirror.
I think a lot of Business in this country that are totally mismanaged can conveniently use Obama care to blame anyone but themselves.
JDW
October 22nd, 2012
12:30 pm
@Tiberius…”single payer only shifts who pays the bills – it doesn’t change the bills at all”
So thats why every country with single payer spends about $3500 less per person than we do…because it doesn’t change the bills.
JEEESH…every heard of purchasing power.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
12:31 pm
JDW, I don’t do sound bites.
Unlike you, I’ve spoken extensively to people in political situations, and there will ALWAYS be people ready, willing and eager to take down everything you say in order to parse it and cherry-pick statements in order to put together a “gotcha” event.
It is shallow politics at best, which is why you’re so enamored of it.
BlahBlahBlah
October 22nd, 2012
12:32 pm
Cheesy, despite those 91% top marginal rates, taxes collected as a percentage of GDP rarely, if ever, sniffed 20%, and didn’t differ much from collections during the Reagan years.
So what’s your point?
Drudge
October 22nd, 2012
12:32 pm
Liberal desperation – my favorite. Florida is pretty much decided. So is NC. Romney up by 5 in both VA and CO. OH is 1 point for Obama…and that is based on 2008 turnout. Do you really think this year dems will turn out like 08? College kids? Minorities? Sure you do.
Hey – anyone remember when Bookman called the election for Obama a few weeks ago?
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 22nd, 2012
12:32 pm
Psssst . . . single payer only shifts who pays the bills – it doesn’t change the bills at all, JDW.
Yes it does.
If the hospital knows they will get paid they are less likely to charge 40 dollars for an aspirin.
Ive had alot of people in the healthcare field tell me that very thing.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
12:32 pm
“So thats why every country with single payer spends about $3500 less per person than we do”
No, it’s because the governments involved ration the care they allow, JDW.
catlady
October 22nd, 2012
12:33 pm
It isn’t Obamacare making it hard. It is pure, unadulterated GREED. THAT is what is killing this country!
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 22nd, 2012
12:34 pm
Liberal desperation – my favorite. Florida is pretty much decided. So is NC. Romney up by 5 in both VA and CO. OH is 1 point for Obama…and that is based on 2008 turnout. Do you really think this year dems will turn out like 08? College kids? Minorities? Sure you do.
Better check those numbers again.
I love how all the polls matter but the one he doesn’t like. That one is based on blah blah blah.
Hilarious.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 22nd, 2012
12:34 pm
No, it’s because the governments involved ration the care they allow, JDW
Total BS.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
12:36 pm
“In fact for the majority of time Reagan was in office his budget had more spending in it than the ones coming for a Democratic Congress.”
Cheesy, I will not repeat my already oft-repeated Reagan spending explanation, but needless to say, you don’t know Reagan, nor what you’re talking about regarding spending.
Drudge
October 22nd, 2012
12:36 pm
Maybe if your business isn’t doing very well you should stop blaming the government and look in the mirror.
I think a lot of Business in this country that are totally mismanaged can conveniently use Obama care to blame anyone but themselves.
That’s hysterical – blame every business in the country instead of 1 singular poisonous policy. If you knew who I worked for, you would have a better understanding of my position. We run a very profitable, rapidly expanding international fortune 1000. There are more companies running our philosophy than yours – which is why unemployment hasn’t even kept up with population…
Matz
October 22nd, 2012
12:37 pm
“I think a lot of Business in this country that are totally mismanaged can conveniently use Obama care to blame anyone but themselves.”
Indeed. I also love the way they spout on about “uncertainty,” (per their GOP talking point.) “OHHH! We can’t hire anybody because we’re SO uncertain! We don’t know for sure what the future (with this black muslim marxist in the white house) will bring, so we’re too SCARED to hire another employee! We want to the government to ensure us that the risks we take as innovative businessmen, boldly forging ahead into the future, will not be risky at all. Ever. Because we believe in personal responsibility.”
Spoken like the brave pioneers of industry that made this country great! …. NOT.
TBone
October 22nd, 2012
12:37 pm
The sooner you figure out that the elite ruling class don’t give a crap about the peons the better off you are. How is the gonna affect take home pay? Figure it out. Vote for the MORMON.
Drudge
October 22nd, 2012
12:39 pm
Cheesy – most of your points are either hearsay, some guy you know or comparing Ike’s congress to London’s olympic committee to chocolate cake. This is why even whining liberals can’t stand whining liberals.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 22nd, 2012
12:39 pm
It isn’t Obamacare making it hard. It is pure, unadulterated GREED. THAT is what is killing this country!
You have to love Republicans.
Tell them that 50 cents is going to provide a poor black kid a free lunch and they will tell you will tell you by all means that must be stopped. Entitlements and all.
But talk about raising taxes on the wealthy. Wow. That just cant be allowed to happen.
Those historically low tax rates for the rich must be protected at all costs. Maybe even lowered more.
Really have their priorities in order dont they.
Whats strange is most of them claim to be Religious.
If they actually opened the bible I think they would find Jesus teaching the exact opposite viewpoint.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
12:40 pm
” No, it’s because the governments involved ration the care they allow, JDW
Total BS.”
Yeah, Cheesy, that’s why it takes months to get an MRI in Britain or Canada, where it takes days (or even hours) here. That’s why it takes a year or more to get a joint replacement there rather than weeks here.
But you keep believing the stuff being fed to you.
JDW
October 22nd, 2012
12:40 pm
@Tiberius…” I don’t do sound bites.”
BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
That’s all you do…BTW unlike you, I do lots of talking to lots of people in business and politics…WAY above the pay grade of lets say our local politicians that spend their spare time working at the mall.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 22nd, 2012
12:40 pm
Cheesy – most of your points are either hearsay, some guy you know or comparing Ike’s congress to London’s olympic committee to chocolate cake. This is why even whining liberals can’t stand whining liberals.
Georgia schools at work.
The lower the education level. The redder the state.
iggy
October 22nd, 2012
12:41 pm
Its gonna be a big election night surprise the Party of Moral Bankruptcy ie the Democratic party.
JDW
October 22nd, 2012
12:42 pm
@Tibeius…”it’s because the governments involved ration the care they allow”
And insurance companies don’t
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 22nd, 2012
12:44 pm
Finn makes an almost daily assault on red states, with his stats about the “redder the state” the less educated the voters in that state. Studies do show that, however studies also show that Rep voters are much more educated than Dem voters, so great minds will have to ponder how you square those two facts. Here are some studies that show that the Dem voting base is less educated, no surprise there.
Rep = Republican
Dem = Democrat
Ind = Independent/Unaffiliated
Grade school education:
23.4% Rep, 54.6% Dem, 22.5% Ind
Some High School:
22.8% Rep, 51.3% Dem, 26.0% Ind
High School Grad:
29.4% Rep, 40.5% Dem, 30.2% Ind
Some College and/or Tech:
36.0% Rep, 35.0% Dem, 29.3% Ind
College Grad:
42.0% Rep, 30.7% Dem, 27.7% Ind
(Source: The World Almanac of U.S. Politics, 1991-93 edition, p.25)
iggy
October 22nd, 2012
12:51 pm
“In the 11 swing states, Mitt Romney earns 49% of the vote to Obama’s 46%. Two percent (2%) like another candidate in the race, and four percent (4%) are undecided.”
“Romney now leads 50% to 37% among unaffiliated voters in the combined swing states.”
Colorado: Romney 50%, Obama 46%
Iowa: Obama 48%, Romney 48%
Romney has FL.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 22nd, 2012
12:53 pm
Matz
Don’t get too lathered up about all this uncertainty in the business world. It ends on 6 Nov. They will then know, four more years of an abysmal economy and unhealthful government regulations, or a better economy and a government more friendly to business. I think you will see them move off their inertia after 6 Nov. They will either start hiring and growing or start pulling back and reevaluating what they need to do to try to ride out the next four years. Many business will try to fashion ways to stay under the limit of employees, that forces them to provide health care.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
12:55 pm
JDW, I wasn’t always a local politician, nor did I always work in my spare time.
“Talking” with people, and “speaking” to people are two different things.
Which is why the minutiae of collecting sound bites is a juvenile waste of time for people to use as their “knowledge base” of candidates.
But the shallower the process, the more I’m sure you’ll embrace it.
td
October 22nd, 2012
12:56 pm
“It isn’t Obamacare making it hard. It is pure, unadulterated GREED. THAT is what is killing this country!”
How many more of our citizens do the producers going to have to take care of? Why can not these non producers become producers?
Matz
October 22nd, 2012
12:56 pm
Rafe Hollister,
Thank you for your concern. How thoughtful! But I am not the one who’s crying scared.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
1:01 pm
“It isn’t Obamacare making it hard. It is pure, unadulterated GREED. THAT is what is killing this country!”
catlady, I suggest you watch John Stossel some time.
Greed is the only thing making this country work at all.
Just Saying..
October 22nd, 2012
1:02 pm
“Stop pretending you were expecting something else.”
In poker, I think this is the end-of-the-night game called Guts…
Just Saying..
October 22nd, 2012
1:03 pm
“Greed is the only thing making this country work at all.”
And hoping that “Greed is Good” has not been copyrighted…
ragnar danneskjold
October 22nd, 2012
1:07 pm
ObamaCare and Dodd-Frank are the leading causes of the continuing regulatory recession engulfing the country. Repeal would be a first step toward a better economy.
kay
October 22nd, 2012
1:07 pm
Hey Kyle, Canada has universal heath care and the federal tax rate there is under 25%….. not nearly that 40 or 50 that you just shouted out into a full theatre.
Just Saying..
October 22nd, 2012
1:09 pm
“…Dodd-Frank are the leading causes of the continuing regulatory recession engulfing the country. Repeal would be a first step toward a better economy.”
Because we saw how swell it worked last time…
Georgia
October 22nd, 2012
1:10 pm
The only problem with ObamaCare is that it could possibly foster even more incompetence among some doctors.
JDW
October 22nd, 2012
1:14 pm
@Tiberius…”Which is why the minutiae of collecting sound bites is a juvenile waste of time for people to use as their “knowledge base” of candidates.”
If this were 1950 I would agree with you, however it is not. Those “sound bytes” today define the marketing message of a candidate. They are the candidates primary messaging methodology. Now you might not like it, and I don’t but those bytes are how a candidate in today’s world communicate with the voter. They spend inordinate amount of time wordsmithing and streamlining those messages. Those sound bytes are how the candidate wishes the voter to perceive them.
The other key data those sound bytes provide is a view of the candidate over time. If you compare them you find you can build a picture of how a candidate has either matured or not. You can understand how consistent they have been in their positions and how they have responded to a changing landscape.
In Romney you find a very clear picture of a candidate that shifts core beliefs based on his perception of the voters desires and that makes him the lessor candidate in most cases including this one.
getalife
October 22nd, 2012
1:17 pm
“The U.S. economy finally seems to be recovering in earnest, with housing on the rebound and job creation outpacing growth in the working-age population. But the news is good, not great — it will still take years to restore full employment — and it has been a very long time coming. Why has the slump been so protracted?
The answer — backed by overwhelming evidence — is that this is what normally happens after a severe financial crisis. But Mitt Romney’s economic team rejects that evidence.”
Read the truth here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/22/opinion/krugman-the-secret-of-our-non-success.html?_r=0
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
1:24 pm
JDW, don’t quit your day job and go into political analysis.
You’d starve.
Sound bites are no different from the slogans of 200 years ago. Same crafting of a small message to get into a voter’s head repeatedly. You’ve probably forgotten “Tippecanoe and Tyler too!”
What are being collected to allegedly “prove ” a candidate’s changing views are pieces and parts of long-winded explanations; those pieces and parts parsed to convey one message when the deeper message is entirely different.
It doesn’t build a message of their beliefs over time. It builds a phoney narrative crafted to “out” a candidate by the opposition party.
And both sides do it.
“In Romney you find a very clear picture of a candidate that shifts core beliefs based on his perception of the voters desires”
Really? And so Obama can change is stance on gay marriage and because it’s him, he’s “evolved”, but when Romney changes an earlier stance on something he’s “flip-flopping”, right?
Kyle Wingfield
October 22nd, 2012
1:25 pm
kay @ 1:07: Canada taxes and spends for health care at the provincial level.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
1:25 pm
Whenever I see the words “truth” and “Krugman” in the same post, I just pass it by . . .
Patty
October 22nd, 2012
1:25 pm
It’s just that kind of myopic wrong headed thinking that keeps our per capita health care costs the most expensive in the world…
US…$7690
Canada…$4363
Germany…$4218
France…”$3978
UK…$3487
Psst…we spend more…single payer would REDUCE our expenditures while freeing business to concentrate on more important problems than how to game health insurance costs.
Ask those people from Canada who were always sneaking over the Michigan border where they’d rather be treated for a life-threating disease. While living in Grand Rapids, I talked to Canadians who waited 6 months to a year for an MRI and up to two years for heart surgery or hip/knee replacements. And the NHS stories coming out of UK aren’t exactly heartwarming.
jconservative
October 22nd, 2012
1:26 pm
At this writing I would guess we would have a Republican House, a Democratic Senate and a Republican White House in Jan 2013.
That leaves the issues of sequestration, Bush/Obama Tax Cuts, debt ceiling and Obamacare all on the table for a number of potential compromises. Or maybe, no compromises at all.
Note that in January 2013 the 113th Congress will convene. And you thought Friday the 13th was bad news.
Add to this the 2014 elections where in the Senate about 20 Democratic seats and 13 Republican seats will be up for grabs.
The period from January 2013 until the August recess will not only be entertaining, it will be critical.
JDW
October 22nd, 2012
1:37 pm
@Tiberius…”Whenever I see the words “truth” and “Krugman” in the same post, I just pass it by ”
Indeed because only liars teach at Princeton, win Nobel Prizes for Economics and Loeb awards.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
1:37 pm
jconservative, I think the fun will start earlier if Obama is re-elected.
Emboldened by his victory, he will (once again) completely misread the electorate and mood in Washington and reject any and all attempts to modify or delay sequestration, even to the point to where he’d veto any bill sent to him during the recess that might do so.
Fortunately, I don’t think that victory is going to happen if the trend continues in Romney’s favor.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 22nd, 2012
1:40 pm
Bookman gets a mention in Salon.com but not Kyle? Snub!
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 22nd, 2012
1:40 pm
Good line from the salon.com article:
This campaign offers a stark look at just how odd the reform argument can get. Here, there have been billions in cuts to public education and lawmakers complain that schools aren’t performing well. So instead of making investments in education—or simply replacing some of the funds taken away—they spend money elsewhere, to create a new, competing system.
It doesn’t make sense, but then again, there’s no word on whether these new charters would teach logic classes.
http://www.salon.com/2012/10/22/georgias_bitter_charter_battle/
Closing my business if Obamacare doesn't get repealed!
October 22nd, 2012
1:41 pm
Kyle,
Thanks for the report but astute small business owners have known this for 18 months. As a business owner I will shut down my company that employ’s 98 people. Obamacare will create more unemployment but a President with biz sense would know this!
Hoping my employees have jobs after November!
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
1:42 pm
“Indeed because only liars teach at Princeton, win Nobel Prizes for Economics and Loeb awards.”
Let’s see . . . Nobel Prize? Rendered completely worthless since being awarded to Obama for Peace (He of the drone-killing hit list of targets and all . . .)
Princeton? Liberal think-tank operating under the guise of a university.
Add to that, Krugman has been reduced to being an “opinion writer” (sorry, Kyle
) because he apparently can’t get work in his chosen field . . .
I’d say his opinion can pretty much be discounted as being “truth”.
edgewise
October 22nd, 2012
1:45 pm
no matter who wins the election, the outer continental shelf drilling for oil, will be back in play. that will create jobs, and it has, as of a couple of months ago, brought land men into Wayne county buying mineral leases for a drilling company, a company who drilled many wells in the marcellus shale in states to the north. are they getting a jump on the OCS play? Wayne county is just 30 miles from the coast. it’s a mystery right now, but, if any of this happens, it could change the economy of se georgia.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 22nd, 2012
1:46 pm
Emboldened by his victory, he will (once again) completely misread the electorate..
Ohoh, more predictions by the righties who predicted after 2008 that this stuff would happen because of Obama:
1) take away their guns
2) The Boy Scouts and private Christian schools would be forced to disband by the Supreme Court
3) adoption agencies would be outlawed
4) religious broadcasters would no longer be allowed to broadcast
5) churches are compelled to host gay weddings or to hire lesbian clergy
6) the Pledge of Allegiance would be outlawed
…………
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
1:50 pm
“Ohoh, more predictions by the righties who predicted after 2008 that this stuff would happen because of Obama: . . . ”
Well, he would have gotten around to those if he hadn’t wasted all his time on Lilly Ledbetter and Obamacare.
jconservative
October 22nd, 2012
1:57 pm
Rafe at 12.44 – Interesting discussion. I checked CNN’s website for exit poll date from the 2008 Obama – McCain election. Note that Obama carried every education level category. I have no idea what this means as I have not checked other elections going back to your 1993 data.
Total vote by education level 2008 presidential election
Category………………..Obama…………….McCain………….. Other/No Answer
No High School (4%)…….63%……………. 35%………………….. 2%
H.S. Graduate (20%)…….52%……………. 46%……………………2%
Some College (31%)……..51%……………….47%……………………2%
College Graduate (28%)…50%……………….48%……………………2%
Postgraduate (17%)………58%……………….40%……………………2%
Source: cnnpolitics.com
One perspective....
October 22nd, 2012
1:59 pm
Seemed to work in Massachusetts ok.
You need to look at what has happened to the Massachusetts budget over the last 5 years. It is breaking one of the richest states in the nation.
JDW
October 22nd, 2012
2:03 pm
@Tiberius…
I don’t think it’s me that needs to worry about starving.
As any marketer would know “Tippecanoe and Tyler too” is a slogan not a sound byte. A slogan is designed to create market recognition. Today’s sound bytes are designed to impart actual information….apples and oranges.
All your other stuff is hogwash but I will point out this bit…Obama’s gay marriage stance was indeed an evolution because it continued it a direction rather than reversing a direction. Lets take a look
First Obama…
In 2004 he said “marriage is something sanctified between a man and a woman.” At that time, he also indicated that civil unions were adequate for gays and lesbians. He contended that the difference between marriage and civil unions was partly just a matter of “semantics.”
In 2006 he said “decisions about marriage should be left to the states as they always have been.”
In 2010 it was “My feelings about this are constantly evolving,”
And this Spring he said “For me personally, it is important for me to go ahead and affirm that I think same-sex couples should be able to get married”
That is a position from a starting point of Civil Unions and evolving to personal support.
Romney on the other hand…
In the 1994 race against Democratic Sen. Edward Kennedy, Romney said, “I believe that abortion should be safe and legal in this country.”
In his 2002 campaign for governor, Romney said during a debate, “I will preserve and protect a woman’s right to choose and am devoted and dedicated to honoring my word in that regard.”
THEN HE FLIPS TO THE OTHER SIDE
In 2007, Romney said on ABC’s Good Morning America “‘You know, I do support the Republican platform, and I support that being part of the Republican platform and I’m pro-life.’”
In June, 2011, Romney published his position on abortion in the National Review, a widely read conservative magazine. He wrote:
• “I am pro-life and believe that abortion should be limited to only instances of rape, incest, or to save the life of the mother. I support the reversal of Roe vs. Wade, because it is bad law and bad medicine.”
• “I support the Hyde Amendment, which broadly bars the use of federal funds for abortions.”
• “I will advocate for and support a Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act to protect unborn children who are capable of feeling pain from abortion.”
• “I will only appoint judges who adhere to the Constitution and the laws as they are written, not as they want them to be written.”
• “I will support efforts to prohibit federal funding for any organization like Planned Parenthood.”
He told Huckabee on FOX he supported a constitutional amendment that would have established the definition of life as conception
He affirmed in a live debate that he would sign a federal ban on all abortions
That is a candidate reversing course and telling the electorate what they want to hear not what he believes.
Lambeau
October 22nd, 2012
2:05 pm
You know there is a reason that the United States has one of the best (if not THE best) quality of health care. Yeah I agree something needs to be done about the cost, but how can anyone say “lets model it after other countries” when we have so much more innovation than most of the world? People don’t come to the US to be treated just for the hell of it. Modeling it after Canada/places in Eurpoe/etc. just decreases the incentive to advance medicine.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
2:06 pm
“You need to look at what has happened to the Massachusetts budget over the last 5 years. It is breaking one of the richest states in the nation.”
Not to mention that most doctors are no longer accepting new patients, and many doctors are leaving the state since it’s inception.
Oh, and MA works because it uses Federal Medicaid dollars to keep it afloat. How will that work in a Federal program when the Medicaid source funding isn’t there?
MarkV
October 22nd, 2012
2:08 pm
Kyle Wingfield @ 11:56 am
“Since it’s so obvious to you, please, share with us.”
Apparently it is beyond Kyle’s ingenuity that Obamacare law could be modified to raise the party-time job definition to 35 hours.
JDW
October 22nd, 2012
2:10 pm
@Tiberius…”I’d say his opinion can pretty much be discounted as being “truth”.”
Of course you are imminently qualified to make such “truthful” judgements…
…SNORT….GUFFAW…SNICKER…CHORTLE…CACHINNATE…WHEEZE…
Lambeau
October 22nd, 2012
2:11 pm
But I guess Democrats feel that severely decreased quality of healthcare to an increased number of people is better than the best quality in the world.
MarkV
October 22nd, 2012
2:11 pm
part-time, not party-time
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
2:13 pm
JDW, is English your primary language?
Because everything you posted is predicated on the one sentence: “I believe that abortion should be safe and legal in this country.”
Does it say anything about funding? No.
Does it say anything about states having the right to choose their own levels of abortion support? No.
You cite his opposition to Roe v. Wade, yet don’t post the REST of his statement saying it should be up to the individual states.
In other words, you’re doing EXACTLY the thing I said you do – parse, cherry-pick and omit the whole train of thought.
If there is anyone shallower in a political discussion, it’s probably getalife.
But you’re a close second.
gm
October 22nd, 2012
2:13 pm
Gee Kyle, tell that to the 30 million mothers and kids who now have health insurance or women who now have pre screening for cancer, or the millions of lives been saved by pre existence, how much is that worth to corporations.
How about the CEO’s making record profits under Obama care? or the stock market at record highs, another right winger who care nothing about Americans.
Lambeau
October 22nd, 2012
2:14 pm
Well we know whats on your mind MarkV! Its only Monday!! Can it be the weekend already? Haha
getalife
October 22nd, 2012
2:14 pm
mitt is a unpatriotic fraud and will lose.
Our President will win this last debate to make it three out of four wins.
The gop are unpatriotic obstructionists and deserve to lose the Independent votes.
Reality
October 22nd, 2012
2:15 pm
Isn’t it a shame (and a sham) that companys find ways to NOT help their employees? Why do we, as a people and as a Country, allow companys do this to us?
Are we really so pitiful as to THINK that we are beholden to these companys?
These are the very companys that pay their CEOs and their board member MILLIONS of dollars in salary and perks (free ride and driver, free private jet, etc.). These are the very companys that are currently holding on to a TON of cash (which yes, is hurting our economy).
I am starting my own business. If I hire even one person (full or part time), I will provide them with full benefits along with their pay. In return, I expect a loyal employee that does a good job. Why is this so hard for people to understand?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
2:15 pm
JDW, you’re really reaching today.
When I have an opinion, I state that it is such.
When I post a fact, I state that it is such.
But NOWHERE do I ever state that my opinion is truth.
I leave that you you libs.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
2:17 pm
I see getalife is out of arguments early today.
He threw the “unpatriotic” flag on his first post.
Reality
October 22nd, 2012
2:18 pm
Kyle,
As usual, you are so far out on your right wing branch that you are going to fall off into the chasm of no return. When will you learn?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
2:20 pm
“Apparently it is beyond Kyle’s ingenuity that Obamacare law could be modified to raise the party-time job definition to 35 hours.”
Apparently it is beyond MarkV’s ingenuity to realize that as long as the penalties for non-compliance are lower than the cost for a company or individual to provide healthcare, Obamacare will fail.
MarkV
October 22nd, 2012
2:20 pm
Lambeau @2:14 pm
“Well we know whats on your mind MarkV! Its only Monday!! Can it be the weekend already? Haha”
Well we know there is nothing on Lambeau’s mind, at least nothing worth noting.
Reality
October 22nd, 2012
2:22 pm
@Tiberius,
I far prefer JDW over Romney. At least JDW is consistant. Romney has “flip-flopped” on his stance so many times it is pitiful.
Romney at one time said he was strictly pro-life and was against all abortions. Now, he has changed his mind to add “except” for those special circumstances – the ONLY reason he has done this was to try and get the women’s vote for this election.
If he were to get into office, what will his position really be? Who knows?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
2:23 pm
“I am starting my own business. If I hire even one person (full or part time), I will provide them with full benefits along with their pay.”
Just remember, Reality, that the unemployment insurance you pay only covers your employee, NOT you. So don’t go rushing down to the unemployment office for your first check when you go under with that strategy, ’cause it won’t be there for you.
Lambeau
October 22nd, 2012
2:24 pm
Wow Mark. I tried to lighten things up and you went that direction with it… And my point on quality of care is very valid. Get off your high horse. Just because you don’t agree with someones views doesn’t mean you have to be a complete jerk.
MarkV
October 22nd, 2012
2:24 pm
MarkV: “Apparently it is beyond Kyle’s ingenuity that Obamacare law could be modified to raise the party-time job definition to 35 hours.”
“ Apparently it is beyond MarkV’s ingenuity to realize that as long as the penalties for non-compliance are lower than the cost for a company or individual to provide healthcare, Obamacare will fail.”
Apparently some people think (if they can think) that presenting an unrelated issue is an answer to an argument.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
2:26 pm
“I far prefer JDW over Romney. At least JDW is consistant.”
Yeah – consistently wrong.
And the biggest difference is that Romney has been wildly successful at almost everything he’s tried.
JDW couldn’t get elected dog-catcher.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
2:28 pm
“Apparently some people think (if they can think) that presenting an unrelated issue is an answer to an argument.”
Apparently some people think that wasting time defending/discussing/changing one part of a law that is so flawed in order to make a point makes that law workable.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
October 22nd, 2012
2:28 pm
A year-long investigation by the Investigative Project on Terrorism (IPT) has found that scores of known radical Islamists made hundreds of visits to the Obama White House, meeting with top administration officials.
Hangin out with mullah obozo, just sayin…
MarkV
October 22nd, 2012
2:39 pm
The basic economic argument against universal health care is that we (the US) cannot afford it. Never mind that other, less rich countries can – we, the richest country in the world, cannot.
In addition to this obvious inconsistency, there are even bigger, quite colossal moral and logical problems with the resistance to universal health care. There are essentially two groups of arguments people make:
1. Health care is just like another commodity; you buy what you can afford.
Sometimes spelled out openly, at other times hidden in the subtext: If you do not have or make enough money and get sick or injured, too bad. It is not my concern. I am against paying more in premium or taxes to help people get health insurance or health care they cannot afford.
Since the word “human” in the expression “human race” also means “kind, considerate,” I find these people belonging to the human race only technically.
2. We (the US) cannot afford to have everybody insured. It would break our budget, skyrocket our national debt. People who can afford it buy their health insurance; those who cannot, and get sick or injured, can get care by hospitals anyway. We have the best health care in the world, and nobody is denied it.
A variation, which notably made Thomas Sowell in a column long time ago: Everybody should just pay for his/her medical expenses. If they are too high, there are always charitable organizations to help.
This argument avoids the moral depravity of the previous one, but at expense of logic. According to this argument (expressed by Romney, among others), people without health insurance still will get medical attention. Therefore, there will be a cost, people will be paid. Who is paying them? Martians? No, it will still be paid by the people of the USA, by “us,” even if “we” presumably cannot afford it.
Don't Tread
October 22nd, 2012
2:40 pm
“and thereby undermine the entire point of passing the law in the first place”
Well, not really…maybe undermine the stated point of passing the law, but not the real objective. All is going according to plan.
MarkV
October 22nd, 2012
2:41 pm
“Apparently some people think that wasting time defending/discussing/changing one part of a law that is so flawed in order to make a point makes that law workable.”
Take note, Kyle!
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
2:47 pm
When you haven’t got the fact-based argument to make, go for the “moral” one.
Darwin
October 22nd, 2012
2:51 pm
If you have your way, they wouldn’t even be paid a minimum wage.
Reality
October 22nd, 2012
3:06 pm
@Tiberius,
If Romney has been so “wildly successful” at everything he has tried, then riddle me this….
Why does his OWN State where he was Governor have him trailing Obama by 25%????? Who in their right mind would even bother to run for President when they don’t even have the backing of their OWN State?
Reality
October 22nd, 2012
3:16 pm
@JDW,
Come on, man! Why do you have to bring truths, quotes, and facts to any discussion with Tiberius? Don’t you realize that these things only will confuse him?
Reality
October 22nd, 2012
3:19 pm
@MarkV,
Very true about health care! Some Countries with some form of Universal Health Care for their citizens (partial list)…
Canada
South Africa
Australia
New Zealand
I guess that the United States just cannot afford as much as these Countries for our citizens? LOL!!!
DownInAlbany
October 22nd, 2012
3:24 pm
It currently costs me $8,268 per year to provide my employees with insurance. Thats with a $10,000 deductible! It will cost me, what, $2,500 to not provide insurance? You do the math…
Reality
October 22nd, 2012
3:28 pm
@DownInAlbany,
What is more important? …doing the “math” or doing the “right” thing for your employees. When will people understand what is really more important?
How loyal, hard working, and appreciative will your employees be for a mere $5,000 per year?
Also, if you cannot really write off that addition $5000 as a business expense, you might want to change accountants doing your taxes!!!
JDW
October 22nd, 2012
3:29 pm
@Tiberius…”JDW couldn’t get elected dog-catcher”
Right about that, if you don’t run you won’t get elected…consider yourself unopposed in your new role.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
3:32 pm
And while we’re on the subject of “morality”, MarkV, how can something be moral if it is enforced through the use of force?
JDW
October 22nd, 2012
3:38 pm
@Tiberius…”Because everything you posted is predicated on the one sentence: “I believe that abortion should be safe and legal in this country.”
You must be a maroon if you don’t realize that…
Agreeing on the air to “sign a federal ban on all abortions”
is diametrically opposed to either
- “I believe that abortion should be safe and legal in this country.”
or
Supporting states rights.
Habla Inglés idiota?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
3:39 pm
“Why does his OWN State where he was Governor have him trailing Obama by 25%?”
Uh, Reality?
You’ll note that Massachusetts is one of the bluest of blue states, Romney spends little personal time there, and absolutely ZERO campaign time there.
Plus, success is measured in many ways. Did he balance the budget? Yes. Did he raise taxes? No. Did he rework fees so that those who use the service PAY for the service? Yes. Did he lower unemployment? Yes. Did he maintain a top-notch education system? Yes. Did he get all these things done while having to work with a legislature that was made up of over 85% of elected officials who were diametrically opposed to his points of view? Yes.
In short, WILDLY successful.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
3:41 pm
JDW, you’re now bordering on outright lies.
The ban that was being discussed was for Federal FUNDING of abortions.
If you have to lie to make a point, JDW, why bother?
DownInAlbany
October 22nd, 2012
3:42 pm
Reality
October 22nd, 2012
3:28 pm
@DownInAlbany,
What is more important? …doing the “math” or doing the “right” thing for your employees. When will people understand what is really more important?
How loyal, hard working, and appreciative will your employees be for a mere $5,000 per year?
Also, if you cannot really write off that addition $5000 as a business expense, you might want to change accountants doing your taxes
I never said that we would not continue to provide h/c insurance, now did I? We truly believe that by providing insurance, along with a good base salary, a 401k and generous holiday/vacation time, we keep a loyal employee base. I have people begging to be hired…I rarely have an opening. My point is, most business people will stop providing insurance and allow their employees to go into the state pool…
DownInAlbany
October 22nd, 2012
3:43 pm
Oh, and by the way, Reality, I’m a CPA and do our own taxes…thanks for the tip, though.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
3:44 pm
“How loyal, hard working, and appreciative will your employees be for a mere $5,000 per year? ”
How loyal, hard working, and appreciative will DownInAlbany’s former employees be when they are no longer employed by him?
DownInAlbany
October 22nd, 2012
3:45 pm
Tiberius: jump to conclusions much? Read my subsequent post…
Reality
October 22nd, 2012
3:46 pm
@DownInAlbany,
I understand your point. However, those businesses that make that choice will have to deal with employees that are far from loyal and likely not to be good workers, right?
My point is simply – why cannot all businesses be like yours? Why cannot they see that by treating people “right” it makes good business sense and human sense?
In other words, why are so many corporations so very greedy and short-sighted?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
3:48 pm
But hey, Reality, let’s take your suggestion and let’s price our goods further out of the world market by increasing the cost of labor so high.
I’m sure the rest of the world is just clamoring for those higher-priced American-made goods – oh, wait . . .
DownInAlbany
October 22nd, 2012
3:48 pm
I don’t know, Reality. I only know that our office certainly seems to be the exception to the rule and I’m proud of it!
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
3:49 pm
DownInAlbany, I’m glad you can provide health care to your employees today.
But when the day comes when it gets to providing health care or keeping your doors open, you’ll keep your doors open unless you’re ready to retire.
Reality
October 22nd, 2012
3:57 pm
@Tiberius – It is people like you with attitudes like yours that make Georgia lag far behind in employment in the Country. Our State is so very backwards it is sad – and yes most people here do think similar to you.
Our State thinks that by giving companys more and more “incentives” to move here that this will solve the problem. However, with all of these “incentives” we give away the proverbial farm. Sure, some may move here and then pay minimum wage for a few years until the “incentive” expires. Then they pick up and move somewhere else leaving behind an empty building and unemployed people (think Ford and soon Kia).
Our State is determined to go the republican route of giving away our tax money money money. Lure companys here with money.
Sure, we can get some films made here – if we provide enough resources to them and give them money. What kind of jobs are those? They are jobs playing “extras” that pay maybe $50 per day! We are not “right to work” State and don’t recognize unions so those film companys can pay pennies in Georgia compared to LA. Why do you think Tyler Perry has been so successful in Georgia?
How about companys WANTING to come here because we are GOOD EMPLOYEES? How about we have an EDUCATED work force that can help their business grow? Why not try this route for a change in Georgia?
Doing what we do now is just not working. We are lagging in most every category of the economy, yet we continue to elect the same republicans to office. How stupid are we really?
Reality
October 22nd, 2012
3:58 pm
Tiberius – How about NOT paying the CEO millions of dollars a year rather than your option of increasing prices? Ever thought of that?
Reality
October 22nd, 2012
4:00 pm
@Tiberius – Romney was not successful in Mass. All he did was agree with the Democrat State Representatives. Yet, you seem to want to give him credit? LOL!
Again, that is why his own State does not support him at all!
Lambeau
October 22nd, 2012
4:13 pm
Reality, you live in such a delusional world. You want everything to be sunshine and butterflies and have everyone be “morally right” to what your standard of “morally right” is. Truth is, we do not live in that world so why not become a realist and realize the world you keep talking about will not happen.
Reality
October 22nd, 2012
5:26 pm
@Lambeau – Because I believe in a better Country and not one based on greed and hate. I see other Countries succeed in this so why cannot we?
Let’s move forward to improve. Don’t go backwards to repeat failure.
JDW
October 22nd, 2012
5:47 pm
“we do not live in that world so why not become a realist and realize the world you keep talking about will not happen.”
Of course not…but shouldn’t one strive to come as close as possible?
JDW
October 22nd, 2012
5:55 pm
@Tiberius…”The ban that was being discussed was for Federal FUNDING of abortions”
WRONG YET AGAIN…
“In a televised debate, Romney was asked “If Roe vs. Wade was overturned and Congress passed a federal ban on all abortions and it came to your desk, would you sign it, yes or no?”"
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/oct/19/politifacts-guide-mitt-romney-and-abortion/
independent thinker
October 22nd, 2012
8:32 pm
The story about Romney and finacial control of voting machines can be found in the following left wing rag:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2012/10/20/romney-family-investment-ties-to-voting-machine-company-that-could-decide-the-election-causes-concern/2
conflicts of interest is an alien concept for the Romney folks
Closing my business if Obamacare doesn't get repealed!
October 24th, 2012
7:05 am
Two weeks and counting before my employees know if they will have a job. I won’t allow some radical nut case to determine my healthcare. I hate it for my employees but they have known to be prepared for the last 4 years. As I “private” biz owner, I have had Obama supporting employees in the past but their jobs got eliminated. America wake up! Small business creates the majority of jobs today, certainly not Washington!