Chapter 3: Live thread for the final Obama-Romney debate
UPDATE at 10:40 p.m.: The candidates very much got back to foreign policy. If Romney’s goal was to present himself as knowledgeable and reasonable on foreign policy — i.e., not a war-monger — he achieved it. He has been much more conciliatory toward Obama than vice versa — he’s eschewed many opportunities to attack Obama, whereas Obama has been on the attack all night. Which suggests both candidates saw Romney as the front-runner coming into tonight’s debate.
If so, I saw nothing tonight to change that. Each candidate had some good moments, but neither truly drew blood. If Obama needed a win, I don’t think he got it tonight.
The pundits are talking about Obama winning on “debate points.” I don’t think that’s the way undecided voters view these things. They wanted to see, as in the first debate, if Romney was this wild-eyed extremist the Democrats have been painting him as. Obama didn’t sleep-walk through this debate by any means, but Romney achieved the same goal of coming across as reasonable and, this time, believable as a commander-in-chief. That’s all he needed tonight.
***
UPDATE at 9:41 p.m.: Both candidates are trying very hard to turn this into something other than a foreign-policy debate. Which probably makes political sense; only so many voters are going to pull the lever based on what they think will happen in Damascus. But given that Obama has managed no more than a tie from the first two debates, and is saying nothing new on domestic policy tonight, you have to wonder why he thinks this is a good strategy.
***
UPDATE at 9:28 p.m.: So far, Romney sounds as if the last words — maybe the only words — he heard before he went on stage were: “Don’t sound bellicose.” Which is smart, but he doesn’t have to sound bellicose to draw a clear line between his policies and priorities and Obama’s. And so far he isn’t doing that effectively.
For his part, the president has turned every question so far back to “nation-building at home.” He’s been saying that for years now. His problem is that his idea of nation-building at home isn’t necessarily what the people at home want. Obamacare? Dodd-Frank? Deficit spending for stimulus?
***
Tonight is President Obama’s last chance to beat Mitt Romney in a head-to-head debate — and, possibly, to grab hold of the prevailing narrative of this election as it enters its final two weeks.
To recap: Romney changed his fortunes in the first debate in Denver on Oct. 3. Within a week of his solid defeat of a listless Obama, Romney had gone from trailing by 3.1 percentage points in the Real Clear Politics average of national opinion polls to leading by 1.5 points. More important, he took control in swing states that traditionally back Republicans (e.g., Missouri and North Carolina) and put some typically Democratic-leaning states (think Michigan, Wisconsin and even Pennsylvania) into the toss-up category.
Last Tuesday’s debate on Long Island finished with many observers — including, naturally, all those Democrats who had been wringing their hands about the first debate — declaring Obama the winner. I took some heat from some of my regular commenters for predicting Obama wouldn’t get a boost from the debate. But sure enough, Romney is a slightly larger favorite in the RCP average six days later. And the most crucial swing states — particularly Ohio, but also New Hampshire, Iowa, Nevada and perhaps even Wisconsin — remain within either man’s grasp. The race definitely is in “too close to call” territory.
But the first two debates were largely about domestic policy. Now we get a night all about foreign policy — at least until each candidate can segue to the domestic implications of any given topic — and that ought to be firmer ground for the current commander-in-chief than for his challenger. Will Obama be able to capitalize on that? Or will Romney be able to portray his presidency as one of missed opportunities and even missteps, particularly when it comes to the inflamed Middle East?
We shall see. Tune in here and on Twitter for real-time commentary, and look out tomorrow for a special post-debate discussion on AJC.com with yours truly and my colleague, Jay Bookman.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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195 comments Add your comment
PROUD NAVY VET
October 23rd, 2012
9:09 am
One question that has really been on my mind for a few days is this. When the election is over and a new President has been chosen, how does the country heal? The wounds from this election go deep. What will it take for the right to actually do what is needed to get America whole again if Obama wins? I ask the same question of us on the left. Will we fall in line and help Romney do what he feels is in the nations best interest? I sure hope so. I will do all I can to help the new Prez be successful. Because with the shape Europe is in, there will be trouble in the United States and we have to be on the same page to get through that. Is it possible?
iggy
October 23rd, 2012
9:11 am
For last nights debate, Romney CLEARLY accomplished his goal.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 23rd, 2012
9:12 am
Cheesy, Romney didn’t play prevent. He played disarm.
All week long the Obama campaign was talking about Romney the war-hawk.
Romney didn’t let Obama goad him into anything like that.
The CNN numbers show nothing changed, which still leaves a small momentum with Romney, with 60% of their respondents saying Romney was Presidential.
Not good for Hopey-Changey
iggy
October 23rd, 2012
9:13 am
Is it possible? Its possible but not probable. The left is intent on doling out dollar after dollar to the lazy and the morally bankrupt. That has to stop.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 23rd, 2012
9:17 am
“What will it take for the right to actually do what is needed to get America whole again if Obama wins?”
Ask yourself this, Navy Vet: What might OBAMA do to heal the divide if he is re-elected, as he has caused much of this division himself.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 23rd, 2012
9:18 am
Is it possible? Its possible but not probable. The left is intent on doling out dollar after dollar to the lazy and the morally bankrupt. That has to stop.
And Republicans are intent on giving everything to the rich.
We can both plan that game.
Most poor people I know work 2 or 3 jobs and live on a shoestring budget.
Somewhere along the line you guys have lost sight of that. I guess being poor and working all the time with no insurance makes you a “freeloader” or “moocher” to Republicans.
After all if you are poor you probably chose to be poor right ?
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 23rd, 2012
9:19 am
What might OBAMA do to heal the divide if he is re-elected, as he has caused much of this division himself.
Right. LOL.
Everybody was all hugs and kisses when W was in Office.
You dont really believe half the stuff you type do you ?
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 23rd, 2012
9:21 am
After Mitt Romney went on the attack about how the Navy has fewer ships than it did in 1916, Obama countered that the military also has fewer “horses and bayonets.”
“I think Governor Romney maybe hasn’t spent enough time looking at how our military works. You mentioned the Navy, for example, and that we have fewer ships than we did in 1916,” Obama said. “Well, Governor, we also have fewer horses and bayonets because the nature of our military has changed. We have these things called aircraft carriers, where planes land on them. We have ships that go underwater; nuclear submarines.”
Obama added: “And so the question is not a game of ‘Battleship’ where we’re counting ships. It’s: What are our capabilities?”
http://www.salon.com/2012/10/23/obama_the_military_also_has_fewer_horses_and_bayonets/
mwuahahahahahahahahahahaha
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 23rd, 2012
9:23 am
Either way this whole thing comes down to Ohio.
Obama is ahead there and I cant see him losing that state especially with Multiple Choice Mitts 34 different positions on the auto bailout.
Obama wins Ohio and wins a close re-election.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 23rd, 2012
9:25 am
I don’t think Mitt can hang on to Florida.
O wins in a landslide.
DawgDad
October 23rd, 2012
9:31 am
If this election is going to be decided by voters undecided going into this debate — this nation is in a world of hurt.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 23rd, 2012
9:31 am
I don’t think Mitt can hang on to Florida.
Personally I dont either.
Alot of Seniors down there may not like Obama. But when they get in that booth and think about Romney and Medicare and vouchers.
Its gonna scare them back to Obama.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 23rd, 2012
9:34 am
Cheesy
Romney doesn’t have 3 different positions on the bailout of the Auto industry. He has one position and it is written down in an opinion piece published in a newspaper. Look it up, it says what he says it says. Fact checks I saw last night, said he was correct. Obama has tried to convince people that Romney wanted the industry to be liquidated. Romney proposed that it go through normal bankruptcy with some government guarantees. Obama wanted to give the companies to the Unions and to see that the union members were not harmed during the restructuring. Mitt’s position is in writing. Like every other position, Obama is smoke and mirrors, nothing in writing that can be used to hold him accountable. Romney had the right position on the bailout.
Regarding playing “prevent”, obviously Romney thinks the trend is for him to win, so he was trying not to do any harm to the momentum he is building daily.
iggy
October 23rd, 2012
9:35 am
“After all if you are poor you probably chose to be poor right ?”
Chosing to be poor? No.
Chosing not to work? Yes.
You dont know any poor people. You are just making up things.
iggy
October 23rd, 2012
9:36 am
Earning misses all over the road. The Obama economy is in the ditch.
Dow down 172. Thanks OBLUNDER!!
Vet
October 23rd, 2012
9:37 am
Even if the results at the polls does not show it, Romney has no clue about nothing. Yes he will grow the Military so he can put our children in harms way, but people can not see this. As a retired Vet of 24 years I understood what the President said about the horses. We do not fight like that any more. 20 year ago I need every Soldier I could get now the job can be done with half the Soldiers because we are just that advance. I just really wish these President basher would just stop BS’ing and just said it, say the words ” I dont like him becasue of his skin color, not policies or anything else. The presidents has not done no worst than the last President have done.
DawgDad
October 23rd, 2012
9:37 am
Finn: Selective editing on your part? You conveniently omitted Romney’s lead-in citing the number of ships is below the minimum the Navy said was needed. Sure, Obama’s line was cute. Rhetoric is cheap.
iggy
October 23rd, 2012
9:40 am
“Romney has no clue about nothing.”
Really? Are you serious?
If he has no clue about nothing, as you indicate then you indicate he has A clue about something.
I can only suggest you Get a Clue.
And yet another jewel…”The presidents has not done no worst than the last President have done.”
Huh? No wonder you identify with OBlunder.
iggy
October 23rd, 2012
9:41 am
Dow now down 193…Thanks OBlunder.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 23rd, 2012
9:42 am
Vet pulls out the same, tired race card, ignoring the abject record of failure this President has on almost everything he’s tried.
MarkV
October 23rd, 2012
9:43 am
PolitiFact rated the Romney/Ryan comparison of Navies “Pants on Fire.” I would call it ignorant, preposterous and laughable.
DawgDad
October 23rd, 2012
9:45 am
“Alot of Seniors down there may not like Obama. But when they get in that booth and think about Romney and Medicare and vouchers.”
The ovewhelming majority of seniors are no where near that stupid. Romney’s voucher proposals have nothing to do with them or their Medicare.
My father had a railroad retirement, after 30+ years of service. He repeatedly reminded us what he could and should have accumulated had he been allowed to invest his contributions personally.
iggy
October 23rd, 2012
9:46 am
The wheels are coming off the OBlunder bus.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 23rd, 2012
9:47 am
Politifact – funded by George Soros.
Got it, MarkV.
Try an unbiased source next time. Maybe one that doesn’t cherry-pick and parse comments.
You know – like you do.
MANGLER
October 23rd, 2012
9:51 am
iggy, do you blame Obama for the DOW being at 13,400+/- today vs. 8,000 +/- when he took office?
Cajun
October 23rd, 2012
9:54 am
Tiberius
Soros? You can provide the link that substantiates that assertion?
Noticed you attacked the source and did not refute the information.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 23rd, 2012
9:55 am
Obama has about as much to do with the stock market as the stock market has to do with the overall health of the economy, which is very, very little.
MarkV
October 23rd, 2012
9:57 am
“Noticed you attacked the source and did not refute the information.”
Standard MO for Tiberius.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 23rd, 2012
10:05 am
I don’t need to refute the information, as I already have it at hand, Cajun.
Romney was speaking about numbers of ships, which are down from where they were (and where they should be). Obama childishly spoke of aircraft carriers and nuclear subs, which are only part of what the Navy needs to do. Subs are largely good for one thing – killing other subs and some surface ships, but they cannot PROJECT power. Aircraft carriers can project power, but need lots of support / screening ships for protection in wartime situations. If you reduce the number of support ships, you increase the vulnerability of the carrier. You lose one carrier, there’s not a lot of replacements waiting around to fill that void.
In addition, if you have to move men and materiel, planes ain’t gonna cut it, Cajun. You need sealift capability and protection for the convoys that will move them. The sealift capability will come from the merchant marine side of the house, but the protection still has to come from the Navy.
And remember, that’s today’s situation. Obama is talking about cutting that even further.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 23rd, 2012
10:10 am
You need sealift capability and protection for the convoys that will move them
Protection from WHOM? Who has a Navy even remotely able to threaten a US convoy? NOBODY. Nobody now, nobody tomorrow, nobody next year, nobody the next year.
Cajun
October 23rd, 2012
10:10 am
Tiberius
Did you lie when you linked Politifact to Soros?
Politifact is run by the Tampa Bay Times and published by the Times Publishing Company, which is owned by Poynter Institute.
Please verify any direct or indirect financial interests that would allow Soros to dictate what goes on at these organizations.
It is linked to Soros, right? Or did you lie?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 23rd, 2012
10:13 am
Cajun, I don’t play the “lie” game. Go back to your parent’s basement and grab another bag of Cheetos.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 23rd, 2012
10:13 am
Cons are like the elementary school kid with a dime in his pocket. Another elementary kid walks up with a nickle and offers to trade coin for coin and the Con agrees cause the nickel is bigger than the dime.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 23rd, 2012
10:15 am
What’s the matter, Finn? salon.com not providing you that information this morning?
Cajun
October 23rd, 2012
10:15 am
Tiberius
You made the assertion now back it up. You are a liar. And lied again when you said you do not play the “lie game”.
You do have the substantiated info, correct?
Thought so……… LIAR
Cajun
October 23rd, 2012
10:19 am
Tiberius in his attempt to say Politifact was far left went for the Soros card……
All well and good, but he can’t prove it. So speaking of “bias”; it might be best not to regurgitate information from biased sources or flat out lie as he did today……
Have a good one
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 23rd, 2012
10:21 am
Cajun thinks I’m a liar. Now I won’t be able to function for the rest of the day.
Isn’t that how it works with you libs? Maybe I’ll try to sign up for disability now, since my esteem has been so devastated . . .
Cajun
October 23rd, 2012
10:23 am
Tiberius
And yet to back up your assertion
Wonder why? You know why………….. It is because you LIED and knew it when you said it
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 23rd, 2012
10:25 am
Tib needs a bigger Navy cause those mean old Canadians scare the poo out of him.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 23rd, 2012
10:31 am
Romney’s 24 myths in 41 minutes:
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/debate-romney-told-24-myths-41-minutes
Peggy woods
October 23rd, 2012
11:42 am
I always enjoy your writing. I taught your dad in 3 rd grade…what a good student he was! I just lost my newspaper brother,Paul R Davis, which reminds me to thank you for what you do. Paul was a Lifetime journalist in Ala. I appreciate you newspaper folks who tell it like it is. I live in Decatur. I asked Pete some time ago if you were family.
bu2
October 23rd, 2012
12:02 pm
Interesting how many Dems liked his condescending line on ships and subs. I found that deeply offensive. Treating your opponent with disrespect simply indicates you lack an open mind to differing opinions and a reasonable explanation of your position (bayonets and horses was ok, but tacky-his condescending comments after that were what was bad-he looked unfit to be our president). Obama never explained why he could get by with less than 50% of what Reagan had and Romney never explained why they needed 313. Both were very shallow. Obama trying to show he could be as obnoxious as his VP and Romeny trying to avoid making a mistake.
bu2
October 23rd, 2012
12:05 pm
With his caustic style, its no wonder Obama failed to get his vast majority in the house and senate to pass a budget for the 1st time in US history. He lacks leadership skills and perspective. He keeps making W and Bill look better and better.
jay
October 24th, 2012
2:16 am
Enter your comments here
jay
October 24th, 2012
2:37 am
well not for nothing im pretty sure most people commenting on this debate had their minds made up before the debate even started so obviously you can easily be judgemental and pick out the small things that may bother you…neither the candidate nor the president is perfect and they both have their flaws, but i honestly believe obama handled his side just fine…of course its going to be a little condesending and maybe a little bit harsh, but im sure they both want to be in office just as much as the other…its a debate its going to be that way…their both going to be cut eachother down and try and make eachother seem horrible…ill be honest romney doesnt thrill me and bush doesnt disturb me…he hasnt done anything to make me hate him…and he favors the middle class…which is obvious most of the upper class is prolly the ones writting all these comments on here…honestly from the update and debate i was satisfied with the way obama played…general motors and the hole detroit banckruptcy ordeal and tax cuts..i mean the hole instagram satire was funny…but just makes obama administration seem desperate which i dont think they are…as oyu can see i would like to conversate about this right now but im sure ill get fired back on and crapped on for my comments but from the basic public view, a common interest is that we dont want to see a close fight…i dont think thatll win a change to romney…if he blew obama out of the water in everything then i could see it happening but im sure we can all agree nobody got blows out of the water…and its alright to like obama still after four years…give him another chance…and just a lil extra ryan for vp? thats one rediculous thing i can say for sure…obiden crapped on em he was begging for air