Spend more money on traditional schools? We tried that
Opponents of the charter-school amendment on next month’s ballot offer a simple alternative idea: Spend more money.
That’s about all the educational establishment can conjure as a means of improving Georgia’s below-average results. State schools superintendent John Barge got to the point quickly when he came out against the amendment back in August.
Barge estimated the state would spend an extra $430 million on new charter schools over a five-year period. He said the state shouldn’t spend that money until existing schools are fully staffed with fully paid teachers for full school years – the lack of which he attributed to state budget cuts averaging almost $1.2 billion in recent years.
So, there you have it, fiscal conservatives wary of the amendment. Barge and his fellow travelers don’t want to spend another $430 million over the next five years. They want to spend an additional $6 billion during those years – about 14 times as much.
Whereas charter schools would at least offer a chance to give students and parents different and better options, that $6 billion would go into the same model we’ve had for years. As it happens, we already know what we get when we pour more and more money into that system: Student learning doesn’t grow nearly as quickly as the funding does.
That’s because, complaints about spending notwithstanding, educational spending in Georgia has gone up, up, up over the longer term. But test scores have barely budged by comparison.
Consider a common national benchmark for standardized testing: the National Assessment of Educational Progress, or NAEP. Because the annual data available for budget numbers and state NAEP scores don’t always overlap, I’m making the most long-term comparison I can: 2002 to 2011.
Between 2002 and 2011, state funding per pupil rose by 10 percent.
Reading scores for Georgia fourth-graders and eighth-graders during those years rose by just 2.8 percent and 1.6 percent, respectively.
Math scores for Georgia fourth-graders rose by 3.5 percent, eighth-graders by 3 percent. (The math scores actually come from 2003, but per-pupil funding then was within $2 of its level in 2002, so it’s a very similar comparison.)
As I reported in a recent column, state-chartered schools – the ones that stand to grow if the amendment passes — already outperform their local, traditional counterparts by about 12 percent.
Perhaps the extra money didn’t yield commensurate results because it didn’t always go into classrooms, according to the Friedman Foundation for Educational Choice.
In a report to be released this week, the foundation found the number of teachers in Georgia grew about twice as fast as the number of students over the past two decades. But so did the number of non-instructional staff (e.g., administrators and secretaries).
Had the growth in non-instructional staff merely kept pace with that of students, Georgia would have employed about 23,000 fewer people in 2008, the most recent year the foundation studied. Using a conservative estimate of $40,000 per year for each of them, these extra workers cost Georgia about $925 million that year.
And how much do Barge & Co. think Georgia schools need each year? Right: $1.2 billion. That $925 million alone would cover three-quarters of the tab.
But if our educational dollars aren’t well-spent now, why would we give them more? And why wouldn’t we embrace an amendment that offers a better way?
– By Kyle Wingfield
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243 comments Add your comment
Whatever
October 19th, 2012
6:09 pm
I’m a con and I say no. If I want a charter school ill vote in a LOCAL board to do it.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 19th, 2012
6:14 pm
Kyle still asking taxpayers to pay for his kid’s private, exclusionary school?
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
October 19th, 2012
6:14 pm
And here I thought it would be impossible to spend more money on traditional schools.
What are they doing with what we’ve given them already, piling it up in some room?
They sure aren’t educating the kids with it, just sayin…
Increased circulation
October 19th, 2012
6:15 pm
“Fellow traverlers” – are pulling your rhetoric from the House on UnAmerican Committee or a 1953 movie? Better hurry along now, Kyle, you don’t want to be late for your John Birch meeting.
LeRoi2
October 19th, 2012
6:17 pm
I do not understand why a person of at least average intelligence would oppose charter schools. It is the only work around available to the established teachers unions to focus a school on their primary objective, educating students. The real solutions long term remain: ending tenure for teachers; a voucher system allowing parents to move their children to schools that have better results; being able to quickly retrain or replace teachers that are incapable of teaching.
Charter schools are all we have until that day comes, and I dont see it happening any time soon.
Olde Tyme Teacher
October 19th, 2012
6:19 pm
Kyle, the teachers want to know, what do you (or everyone else) want? We all work VERY hard. The rules keep changing. We do one thing, and some other group tells us to do something else instead. Another group says _________, then another group says _________. On and on. Teachers did not hire all of the non-instructional people you mention. Government of one form or another REQUIRES most of the work these people do. We are tired of being in the middle of politics. Truth be told, if we improved 1000%, no one would notice, or they would say what about _______?
mike
October 19th, 2012
6:23 pm
I want my property tax dollars spent on our Christian school. If that makes your property taxes go up well, then that’s too bad.
If you want to send your kids to a private Christian school, don’t expect the rest of us to subsidize it!
LeRoi2
October 19th, 2012
6:25 pm
My daughter is a HS teacher. She started teaching after a few years in the business world, and tired of the long hours and the competitiveness. She says it is a cake walk. Easiest job she could imagine. She teaches 5 classes a day of about 40 students, with an assistant. She puts in 40 hours a week, and never has to go over. She loves all of the time off, and the stress free atmosphere.
What she dislikes the most is all of the long time teachers doing nothing but complaining how hard their jobs are, how many hours they work, how parents dont help, etc. She says most of these teachers have been around over 20 years, have never had a job other than teaching, make $85K per year for a 10 month year, and have no idea what a real job entails. They also make no effort to teach, believing that they are already under paid just for showing up.
We need to get these kinds of burnout cases out of the schools. End tenure, hold teachers accountable for how much the students learn in their classes.
Skip
October 19th, 2012
6:25 pm
Could be you have a lot of dumb kids here, ever think of that?
mike
October 19th, 2012
6:27 pm
Well, I Report, I see you didn’t get the standard 1 week suspension for calling a blogger by other than their log in name. I guess Kyle has softened his punishment policies. Or, at least for his right wing bloggers.
teacher&mom
October 19th, 2012
6:43 pm
Someone from the DOE should send Kyle a copy of the power point Dr. Barge presented at the recent Bootstrap conference.
Kyle may be shocked to learn that GA has actually shown improvement in several areas….ACT, NAEP, SAT, and AP scores.
mike
October 19th, 2012
6:56 pm
By now it’s obvious to almost everyone that America suffers from “Bushnesia.” “Bushnesia” is an affliction that affects the right wing in America wherein they can’t remember the abject debacle that was the Bush presidency. They can’t remember the wars, the absurd tax cuts, the outsourcing, the fraud, the waste, the housing bubble, the ridiculous policies, the economic policies that landed us in the hole that is seemingly impossible to dig out from under.
And now we suffer from “Romnesia” where we can’t remember what Romney yesterday, let alone last week. What does he stand for? What are his policies? What are the specifics of his “tax plan.” How does he plan to “turn the country around?”
Silly me, I forgot about the “magic wand.” Yeah, that’s it, the magic wand.
Under the bus
October 19th, 2012
6:57 pm
Kyle, what’s wrong with the way charter schools are approved now? Why does there need to be an additional process since we already have a process in place? Why does their funding formula send more money per student that traditional public and local charter schools? That is where the 430 million dollars comes into play. Barge is simply stating that it’s wrong to start up a separate school system when you have not fully funded the one you have. School systems are not against charter schools, they are against creating another entity that will only do what we are already doing. Start funding schools so they can have 180 days a year and local systems an open their own local charter schools. And why are you in favor of a group of politicians being told by the Supremes that what they are doing is unconstitutional so they say no problem, we’ll just amend that little problem? Why should state elected officials get to tell locally elected officals how to run what we elected them to run? What do you have against secretaries? Believe me, schools get a lot of work done for low wages from secretaries. Did you know that the labor department requires schools to issue work permits? A secretary has to do that. Did you know that the DMV makes students bring in notarized attendance forms to get learner’s/driver’s licence. A secretary has to do that, in addition to answering the phone, greeting the public, typing letters, dispensing mediciine, be support staff for all the teachers and the principal, etc.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 19th, 2012
6:58 pm
Same ole answer from Libs spend more money, just like we have done with Poverty since 1965, and haven’t moved the needle yet. We need to support this amendment, there are BOE all over Georgia that are so turf protecting that they deny applications to start Charters. The sad thing is that everyone can’t go to a Charter, but we have to start somewhere, the traditional schools have been failing us for years.
RAMZAD
October 19th, 2012
7:02 pm
Once every three blue moons I agree with Kyle, since I am profound liberal. This is one of those moons.
Never have I seen a more basic and meritorious idea suffered more demagoguery and fanatical fear-mongering than the Amendment 1.
Local control has failed. Stevie Wonder can see that. The school boards are invariably little more than popularity cesspools operated by temper tantrum junkies steeped in accreditation paranoia,
and money sucking vulturism.
The schools are primarily training warehouses for prison life, baby momma drama, baby daddy irresponsibility, and gangland operations practicum.
If another country worked against our national security like our public schools, local school boards and local control do we would have already used cluster bombs and cruise missiles against them them. Yet, we continue to hear all this irrelevant nonsense about State control and $430,000,000.
I am still trying to figure it out. Somewhere in there it is coming to me that Georgians may be congenitally stupid.
td
October 19th, 2012
7:03 pm
I am a conservative and will vote no for the following reasons:
1: If the local community thinks there should be a Charter school in their system then they can approve one. If they do not think the application for the school makes sense to them then I do not want a non elected commission not accountable to the local community to override their decision.
2: The whole concept of Charter schools is a way out of doing the hard work of real reform of the entire education system. If the few caring parents of a community gets their Charter school and is happy then they will care less about the other schools and if they are failing then you lose are much larger % then you save.
Li'l Aynie
October 19th, 2012
7:07 pm
Kyle, you’re right this time. Spending more money on public education won’t improve the education of American children. Charter schools won’t either.
The basic problem is that we’re trying to make students more alert, aware, and intelligent than their parents. The lessons of school during the day are dispelled in the evening by the behavior of the parents and guardians. It’s a helluva job to raise children to be better than their adult family members.
Second, there is a problem that we can solve: there is no established, predictable curriculum for teachers to teach, students to learn, and developers to build teaching and learning tools.
The hundreds of school boards across the country do not have the funding and wisdom to develop curricula. The federal government should divert the funding of locally-administered schools to contract for the development of model curricula and techniques. The government can demonstrate the new curricula and teaching techniques in the schools for the children of military personnel . The local school boards could either adopt the standard curricula or incur the wrath of concerned parents and endure the criticism of the media.
It’s not necessary to hold up Finland and Korea as examples of good education. There are plenty of superb American schools, but you’ll find them in European and Asian capitals. These foreign “American schools” serve the children of diplomats and businessmen living abroad.
If I were you, Kyle, I’d move back to Brussels to obtain a good education for your kids, not to mention the great food and cultural entertainment for adults, and the freedom from excessive commercialization! Charter school, public school: just bad education!
LeRoi2
October 19th, 2012
7:09 pm
Mike, maybe you forgot, but a president cannot take us to war, it takes an act of congress, which is what Bush got with a majority of the DEMS voting in favor. The “absurd” tax cuts actually INCREASED revenue, which was the largest revenue ever collected by treasury before or since. All of the outsourcing began because of NAFTA, which was passed by a DEM congress, and signed into law by a DEM President Clinton. Fraud and waste have always been a part of Federal spending, which is why REPS are in favor of reducing the Federal budget, not increase it as the DEMS always do.
The housing bubble started with the passing of the Community Redevelopment Act, which was a DEM program signed int law by DEM President Clinton, and overseen by Barney Frank, the DEM in charge of the House Banking Committee. The whole economy that Obama inherited was largely the creation of DEMS, not REPS. The Congress was controlled after 2006 by DEMS, who started the spending spree under Reid and Pelosi 2 years before Bush left, and once Obama got in they really kicked it into high gear.
It is impossible to dig out of a hole by doubling down on the policies that got us in the hole in the first place, which is what Obama has done. Take a look at every state that is controlled by the DEMS, they are all economic basket cases because of DEMS fiscal policies. NY, IL, CA, NJ, WI. It was only after the DEMS were thrown out of NJ, and OH, and WI, that the economies are turning around, and their is job growth again. None of this is hard to figure out if you deal in facts, and reality, instead of believing DEM talking points.
RAMZAD
October 19th, 2012
7:32 pm
People are talking about local control this and local control that but I would like to get some answers:
How about explaining how Clayton County to lose its accreditation in 2008 and DeKalb under interrogation about theirs now- under local control?
How about explaining how APS could become the author and finisher of the greatest public school cheating scandal in the history of the United States- under local control?
How about explaining how the US in 18 in the world in science and mathematics below countries that are in some respect virtual war zones- under local control?
How about explaining why colleges and universities have to do advanced remediation budgets to ready students coming from under “local control?
How about explaining how Crawford Lewis and Pat Pope could misappropriate almost $10,000,000 out of DeKalb education school construction budget- under local control?
How about explaining how only rich neighborhoods have good public schools- under local control?
How about explaining how we can have multiple cases of bullying, mob beatings, sexual assaults, mass shootings in public schools- under local control?
How about explaining what we are getting for the $6,200/year Georgia is spending on each and ever public school student- under local control?
How about explaining why bad teachers are impregnably wedged into the school system and can’t be fired- under local control?
How about explaining how the Georgia State Patrol can give us a speeding ticket on I20 but Georgia can’t charter a public school in Chamblee- under local control?
How about explaining why Georgia can collect local income tax but can’t charter a local school?
Zaquisha
October 19th, 2012
7:33 pm
“They want to spend an additional $6 billion during those years…”
Throwing more money at public education in Georgia wouldn’t move the needle by much. At this point the only way public schools can meaningfully raise test scores is by cheating, and we know how that worked out for Atlanta.
If having charter schools means that some kids will get a better education and become productive, law abiding, non-mooching citizens I am all for it.
Kyle Wingfield
October 19th, 2012
7:41 pm
Olde Tyme @ 6:19: Actually, I sympathize with what you wrote. And that’s one reason I think teachers should be in favor of expanding charter schools — because in most cases (I won’t say “all,” lest someone find an exception of which I’m unaware) they’re free of the kinds of rules you’re talking about, as long as they produce good results.
Some teachers view state-chartered schools as competition. If I were a teacher, I think I’d view them as new job opportunities.
Numbers-R-US
October 19th, 2012
7:41 pm
I have an idea. Let’s give the state responsibility for creating for-profit taxpayer funded private schools that have no oversight because that’s sure to do one thing. Too bad it has nothing to do with education.
Kyle Wingfield
October 19th, 2012
7:43 pm
teache&mom @ 6:43: And in my column, I acknowledge some gains in NAEP…just not very rapid ones. At this rate, it’ll take a decade or two more for Georgia to catch up with the national averages on the various NAEP tests.
Kyle Wingfield
October 19th, 2012
7:45 pm
Under the bus @ 6:57: See what I wrote here about the 2011 court ruling and why it threatens “the way charter schools are approved now” at the state level.
As for the “amend that little problem” part: That’s what the amendment process is for. This is the constitutional way to go about making these kinds of changes.
Kyle Wingfield
October 19th, 2012
7:47 pm
Finn: Not sure why your post got held up. I pushed it through.
Hillbilly D
October 19th, 2012
7:50 pm
If I want a charter school ill vote in a LOCAL board to do it.
I go along with that. I also don’t think spending more money is the answer. We need to be spending the money that we do spend, more wisely. I’d start by trimming the administrative and putting the savings in the classroom.
The main thing missing, in my opinion, is discipline, and that’s not a matter of $$, it’s a matter of mindset.
ODD OWL
October 19th, 2012
7:53 pm
Kyle, you’re being intellectually dishonest… Republicans have been cutting money from public school budgets at the national level and the state level since 1981, when Reagan cut the school budget to the bone… Reagan and his cohorts even labeled ketchup a vegetable in their deep cuts in the school lunch program… Ketchup is still considered a vegetable in the school lunch program today… Now the schools in the rich, elite districts have seen their funding triple in the last 30 years… The public school system should be funded from the general treasury at both the state and federal levels… All the problems this country have today begin with Reagan…
Hillbilly D
October 19th, 2012
7:59 pm
All the problems this country have today begin with Reagan…
We started bleeding blue collar jobs in the 1970’s, as I remember.
Numbers-R-US
October 19th, 2012
8:04 pm
When you motivate students to pursue the money such as in professional sports or modeling or even Wall Street, etc., then you should not be alarmed to see students pursue those careers over something like the highly esteemed climate scientist’s career, etc. After all, a good Youtube video or an IPad app or even a lottery ticket offer so much more opportunity than an education that is designed to simply leave you more indebted. By the way, how much more indebted will parents be once they are given all these for-profit k-12 choices to prepare them for more for-profit higher education choices. And how much more educated will they be afterward. Will they be able to calculate their own loan payments. Anything for a buck though. It’s the Amurican way and k-12 education is ripe for the plucking, I mean, picking. Tell us more, Kyle. When will Murdoch start pumping the Fox Education Channel into the schools for a tidy profit…
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 19th, 2012
8:05 pm
Ramzad, I can’t believe it, but we are on the same side. Excellent post at 7:32.
Hillbilly, you are correct, unless we solve the discipline problem, any money spent is wasted on public schools. That is one of the great things about the Charters, if they don’t behave, they leave. They have to go through some effort to get in, and their parents have to go through effort to keep them in, so that greatly influences behavior. Public schools no effort needed, in fact, compelled to go, so outcome is often poor. As the saying goes, you usually get out of something just about what you put into it.
RAMZAD
October 19th, 2012
8:11 pm
Rafe, thanks!
Numbers-R-US
October 19th, 2012
8:13 pm
“When it comes to K-through-12 education, we see a $500 billion sector in the U.S. alone that is waiting desperately to be transformed.” Rupert Murdoch
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 19th, 2012
8:17 pm
All the problems this country have today begin with Reagan…
Well, that is your opinion Odd one, I would say they began with FDR, the author of the Gimme state solutions.
Bruno
October 19th, 2012
8:19 pm
We started bleeding blue collar jobs in the 1970’s, as I remember.
Yet tens of thousands of factory jobs remain unfilled today due to lack of qualified applicants. Seems that no one wants to do the dirty work anymore.
Bruno
October 19th, 2012
8:20 pm
Thulsa Doom–Looking for your picks for tomorrow.
How about you, HD?? Any college football picks??
Olde Tyme Teacher
October 19th, 2012
8:23 pm
Kyle, I teach at a charter school. I am still waiting for the relief from federal and state mandates. I lived through the “new” high school math curriculum. I am currently working with the Common Core math curriculum. It won’t work, either, so I am so happy that I will be retired before the replacement for Common Core rolls out in a few years. Again, where is the break on the rules for being a charter school? We still test for, like, 25 days every year. We still have EOCT’s, and we will soon have PARCC assessments. Goodness knows, we got all the budget cuts everyone else got. Soon, we will have to shelve our excellent, locally developed, teacher evaluation instrument in favor of the state RTTT model. Where is that break from the rules for being a charter school you are talking about?
Please do not assume that I, a lowly teacher, am not politically connected enough to know what is going on. Exactly why should I trust legislation calling for a constitutional amendment obviously worded in a loaded manner? Why should I trust legislation whose proponents have accepted thousands of $ from outside the state to promote? Why should anyone outside of Georgia care, anyway?
For the record, I am VERY conservative. I used to be a card-carrying member of the Republican party, before I saw all of the power-grabbing and probable corruption on the part of those we elected to make a difference. I have 34 years in as a teacher and administrator. I am currently teaching, and I am one of those that almost all the parents want to teach their kids. I have always been very popular with students and their parents because I am very knowledgeable and demanding.
…And, several like-minded people and I are seriously considering opening a charter school of our own.
Del
October 19th, 2012
8:25 pm
I voted yes.
Olde Tyme Teacher
October 19th, 2012
8:27 pm
@Rafe-If that were only true……Read what the proponents of the amendment are saying. They say that charter schools have to accept all applicants, and they will not throw out those that do not cooperate. This has been said multiple times on the Get Schooled Blog. Being a teacher at a charter school, I am still waiting for the unmotivated and disruptive to go. All potential expulsions are looked at with increasing scrutiny.
Remember that EVERYONE in the discussion says that charter schools are PUBLIC schools.
Del
October 19th, 2012
8:30 pm
It’s always amusing to see those who claim no party affiliation and then proceed to shoot down conservative values. Get serious folks there’s no middle these days you’re either left wing and that equals Democrat or you’re right wing and that equals Republican.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 19th, 2012
8:31 pm
OTTeacher
I sympathize with what you are facing. My family is full of teachers who voice the same complaints. Question, if you have a choice for your child, which way would you go, traditional or charter? Which do you prefer to teach at? Which offers the most education for the dollar spent?
You answers to those questions would enlighten some, who don’t see the need for the Charters.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 19th, 2012
8:36 pm
OTTeacher
The charter I am familiar with is rural. It takes effort to get your children there. Parents pay for their children to ride a bus, not provided by local school board, but by the Charter. Parents are required to volunteer a specific amount of time in the school. Applications are required to enter, although they do not discriminate, the application process eliminates many slackers. They require a dress code, which itself eliminates problems. Out of pocket costs are higher for parents.
All of these things and what I have heard of this school led me to feel that many of the less motivated were excluded, most voluntarily.
td
October 19th, 2012
8:39 pm
Discipline is only part of the problem in our school system and is really one of the reults of the real problem. The real problem is parents and how parents prioritize the education of their children and how they prioritize the role they play in the maturation process. When a parent does not set education as the first and only priority of a child and follow through with the priority set then that child will not be as willing to learn and may become that discipline problem in the classroom.
Kara Willis was the Libertarian candidate in 2010 for the State school Superintendent’s position. I was at a debate (forum) with her and Dr. Barge and the Dem candidate. One of the questions asked her from a member of the audience was what would she do to bridge the achievement gap in this state. Her answer was (paraphrase) We can change the curriculum to the best in the world with the hardest standards, reduce the class size even more and double our budget and you will only see marginal gains in achievement unless you change the attitudes of the parents in our urban and rural communities that education should be the first and only priority in raising a child.
I voted for Dr Barge but what she said was IMHO 100% correct.
Hillbilly D
October 19th, 2012
8:42 pm
Bruno
Don’t really follow college football.
td
I agree with you that most of the school problems start in the home but how can we fix that? Honestly, I ain’t got a clue. You can’t force people to give a damn.
ODD OWL
October 19th, 2012
8:46 pm
Lets examine who’s being criticised in the school system… The students are blamed, the parents are blamed, the teachers are blamed… Now lets examine the people who are doing all the scape goating and blaming… They are the Republicans, the very same idiots who are cutting the school budgets… The Republicans scape goat and blame the students, the Parents and the teachers in an attempt to justify their massive cuts in spending on schools… The Republicans have become a problem in America… If We the People vote the Republicans out of office, we can get rid of the problem…
Del
October 19th, 2012
8:49 pm
Where I’m fortunate enough to live children get an outstanding education in the public school system. The teachers are outstanding. Unfortunately, that’s not true everywhere. It seems like weekly we read or see on television public school teachers behaving in a manner that’s not contributory to a quality education for our children state wide or nationally. We have to change direction if we’re to survive in the first world of nations. Political correctness must go.
td
October 19th, 2012
8:54 pm
ODD OWL
October 19th, 2012
8:46 pm
” the very same idiots who are cutting the school budgets…”
How does money solve the problem? We spend more money in the US per pupil then any other country in the world but do we have the brightest children in the world?
How much of a reduction in poverty have we had over the past 50 years of the “Great society”? Are there less people poor now then in the early 1960’s?
Del
October 19th, 2012
8:54 pm
The left has been a drag on this country far too long. Citizens who believe in America must silence this scum and prevent them from ruining this Republic any further.
teacher&mom
October 19th, 2012
8:59 pm
@Kyle: It is incredibly naive to believe we are suddenly going to make incredible gains in NAEP, SAT, and/or ACT scores within a short time span.
Rapid gains are not always TRUE gains….just ask some of the districts that are now under the microscope lens for their “miraculous” test score gains.
True growth in education is steady, consistent, and rarely happens is a short time frame…which makes it very vulnerable to those who want to twist the data to meet their immediate needs.
Did you know GA ranked 7th in the 2011 Education Weeks “Quality Counts” report?
GA also ranks 13th in the nation for students scoring a 3 or above on AP exams.
We rank 2nd in the nation for the number of African American students scoring a 3 or above on AP exams.
We are one of 23 states showing improved SAT scores.
Georgia is one of only eleven states showing improvement on SAT and ACT tests.
It’s not all doom and gloom….and yes, it does take money to educate a large number of students.
Dave
October 19th, 2012
9:02 pm
Kyle, I see you are back with the “fellow travelers” aspersions. Why is it necessary to try to connect the state’s school superintendent to communists from the 50’s? Bad form.
As to the merits of you spend less money argument, how about spend whatever amount of money on one system of public education with one set of administrators with a set of standards that are enforced? I don’t much care if those standards are set at the county level or the state level. What I do care about is that the standards make academic not necessarily political sense; and, more importantly, that they are enforced. If a school or a school district or bunches of them don’t cut the mustard, get rid of the people that are failing.
The Amendment does nothing to improve education in Georgia. It just adds an alternate path with different folks in control. What is there about two paths that inherently leads to better results? Nothing.
We need some people that know what they are doing, give them the authority to do it and fire them and move on if they screw up.
teacher&mom
October 19th, 2012
9:03 pm
@Kyle: “Between 2002 and 2011, state funding per pupil rose by 10 percent.”
True…but if you are going to throw that number around, you should also mention the rapid increase in student enrollment.
Look up the percentage of student enrollment increases and publish those numbers alongside the increase in funding.
You may find the actual cost per pupil decreased.
Olde Tyme Teacher
October 19th, 2012
9:04 pm
@Rafe-At this point, I see little difference in traditional or charter schools. Some charters are “allowed” more leeway than others. I wish every local unit (not necessarily district!) could draw up a plan to educate their specific population. I am confident that most communities in Georgia could band together parents and school officials to do great things. Busting up the large, troublesome districts such as APS, DeKalb, Clayton, et al, into smaller, more accountable charter groups would probably solve a lot of their problems. Certainly, trying to hold the state to a “one size fits all” plan as a knee jerk reaction to the trouble areas will not work. I cannot fathom why any caring and intelligent leaders would attempt to go in that direction.
It is my experience that there are, in fact, many highly capable educators in this state. If the state leadership would partner with those that are in the effective classrooms to set policy, they would find that the vast majority of the good educators want and would embrace real change. I know this thought is against the talking points of both political parties, but it is, in fact, true!
For example, there are no bad teachers at my school. The community of parents and teachers will not put up with bad teachers. We usually do a good job of hiring, but if someone does not work out, we do not re-hire them. I fail to understand why any community will put up with bad teachers. There is sufficient policy and law in place to take care of bad teachers, and that is true everywhere in Georgia. Any leadership that refuses to put the policies and laws in place needs to be removed, themselves!
jconservative
October 19th, 2012
9:40 pm
Here is the text of the amendment.
“Shall the Constitution of Georgia be amended to allow state or local approval of public charter schools upon the request of local communities?”
Bruno
October 19th, 2012
9:52 pm
Look up the percentage of student enrollment increases and publish those numbers alongside the increase in funding.
You may find the actual cost per pupil decreased.
teacher and mom–Kyle stated that the 10% increase in funding was per pupil . If you look at charts comparing student performance vs. the money spent per pupil, it’s far from a 1:1 correspondence. The most egregious example is Washington DC, in which per pupil spending is always near the top, and student performance always near the bottom.
Hillbilly D
October 19th, 2012
9:52 pm
“Shall the Constitution of Georgia be amended to allow state or local approval of public charter schools upon the request of local communities?”
That’s mighty vague, as these things always are. What if state wants to approve it and local doesn’t, or vice versa? What constitutes “request of local communities? Is that a majority, certain people, and what makes a community, a school system, or something else? And I’m not even a lawyer, I’m sure they could find more things to squabble about than I could.
ODD OWL
October 19th, 2012
9:58 pm
Rich school districts spend three time as much per student on education as poor districts but the grade point averages in the rich districts are only slightly higher than the GPA’s in the poorest districts… Question; Do any of you non rich Republicans know the what, when, where, how and why this country fund its public school system with money from property taxes ???
Hillbilly D
October 19th, 2012
10:08 pm
Question; Do any of you non rich Republicans know the what, when, where, how and why this country fund its public school system with money from property taxes ???
I’m not a Republican but I’ll take a stab at it. I’d say it’s a holdover from when most of the wealth in this country was in land. In my opinion, the property tax (read, land tax) is antiquated and we need to do something else.
ODD OWL
October 19th, 2012
10:17 pm
Wait a minute… No one can be this naive… There are people in this blog site that actually “believe” that a Republican controlled state legislature, a Republican controlled state Senate and a lazy, shiftless, no show, Republican Governor are going to solve problems in this state… Are you kidding me ??? The Republicans are the ones who created all the problems… Non rich Republicans are in a state of perpetual denial… Thank goodness for ObamaCare which provide for extensive, long term mental health care…
Hillbilly D
October 19th, 2012
10:28 pm
There are people in this blog site that actually “believe” that a Republican controlled state legislature, a Republican controlled state Senate and a lazy, shiftless, no show, Republican Governor are going to solve problems in this state…
How is it any different from the 150 years the state was under the Democrats? I can’t tell a bit of difference myself, not that I lived through the whole 150 years but I was around for a lot of it.
ODD OWL
October 19th, 2012
10:36 pm
In 1954 the Supreme Court ruled on “Brown Vs. Board of Education.” After the Supreme Court decision, all the southern states begin funding the public school system with money from property tax… The idea spreaded from the south throughout the rest of the Country… It was an overt effort on the part of segregationists to obstruct, block, delay and scuttle the racial integration of the public school system.. Charter schools will be the final nail in the coffin of the public school system…
Sailfish
October 19th, 2012
10:50 pm
Another day, another charter solution being promoted; it’s not rocket science, why are all the good performing public schools in solid middle to upper class neighborhoods and the under performing ones in the low class poorer areas? It all begins in the home, charter schools are no better in the tough hoods. Just more ways to tear down another american institution and try to squeeze new found money to the corporates, it’s a scam.
getalife
October 19th, 2012
11:32 pm
We tried tax cuts and regulations too that failed.
Fund education.
It is important for kids to have a chance to make it.
ODD OWL
October 20th, 2012
12:36 am
It seems as though many of the non rich Republicans have a severe case of Romnesia… Its symptoms are similar to ADHD…
Increased circulation
October 20th, 2012
1:05 am
2 things doomed public schools
1. White flight – monied whites went to private schools, eroding a base of good students to bring up test score averages. This exodus also eroded support for the schools, as tax bases shrank and who wanted to pay for schools that their children were not attending.
2. Women’s liberation – sorry, as this is very un-PC, but back before the early 70’s about the only professions intelligent women entered were teaching and nursing. Sure, there were exceptions, but they were rare. Then women found out they would get special hiring treatment at companies if they majored in engineering, accounting, marketing, finance or became doctors and lawyers. This depleted the pool of truly amazing people who, before, would have considered going into teaching.
How do you fix this?
1. You have to fix the schools before you can get back those who fled (actually, you’d be getting back their children). One suggestion is to train retired professionals to come in and supplement teachers at some low rate of pay. This might attract some of the people who went into other professions but might have stayed gone into education had the pay been comparable. Many of these people have retired, so they don’t need full time jobs, but tutoring, and providing extra help for a nominal ompensation might be attractive to them.
2. Route kids who need a vocational education into some sort of vocational school. It’s not fair to them or anyone to make them take college prep courses and have them come out of high school unprepared for college or a job.
3. Ignore race. If you ignore race, you shouldn’t have to worry about racism.
Steven
October 20th, 2012
3:49 am
I voted NO on Monday for Charter Schools. I want local control. Being a child of an educator, I see charter schools as a way to bring back ‘Seperate but Equal’ that was a part of the Jim Crow South. I’ll vote NO when the proponents try it again the NEXT election cycle! If you parents want a different education, then enroll your child in Woodward Academy. I’m sure they’d love to have you and your money.
Lynn43
October 20th, 2012
5:57 am
OTT The reason your charter school is not getting all the “said” benefits of being a charter school is (probably) that it is not managed by one of the “for profit” companies which contributes to the coffers of the legislators. There seems to be two sets of rules. I have two charter schools in my district-one for-profit and one non profit. They are certainly not the same.
Lynn43
October 20th, 2012
6:10 am
Kyle We take great pride in our school system for being well run, producing students who perform well in all areas of life, athletics, academics, fine arts-you name it, we offer it at a high level, but at the end of this year, the state will OWE us 85 million dollars (their formula and building since ‘03). In a different pocket of money, this year with one vote, the legislators cut 4 million from our share of state money. Every year unfunded mandates are added which we must find the dollars to cover. Before you start writing about “school”, you need to educate yourself about “school”. Spend a couple of days in my system with our wonderful superintendent, teachers, and staff. You don’t just write negative articles using “sort of” information. Or you shouldn’t.
lex
October 20th, 2012
6:21 am
Our children go to a top tier independent school, so we have, as they saying goes “no dog in this fight.” However, we strongly favor charter schools. Much as the thumb sucking set shudders at competition, that is, school choice, competition makes for better schools. Schools that don’t produce results get left behind. Problem is, competition also exposes and endangers incompetent and underperforming teachers and administrators. Correspondingly, non-performing, underperforming and misbehaving students ought to be segregated from achievers.
Hate to break the news, but test scores often are nothing more than proxies for involved, motivated parents and students, and, no amount of money will make a dent in the test scores (or academic achievement) of students whose families are incomplete, disfunctional or antagonistic to learning, who spend all their time whining about imaginary grievances.
Jack
October 20th, 2012
6:23 am
Show me a school where discipline is enforced and I’ll show you a good school.
Li'l Aynie
October 20th, 2012
7:04 am
jconservative … I’ve already voted. I recall that the charter school amendment was not so simply stated on the ballot. it went more like “to improve education in Georgia, etc.”. A second reading is needed to find out whether we’re voting for better education or whether we’re voting for the state government to authorize charter schools over the objection of local school boards.
I was surprised at the complexity of the amendment wording. I like your version better, but that’s not what was on my ballot.
Check it out!
Check it out!
MAY
October 20th, 2012
7:15 am
@OTT, I hope you will start a charter school. An independent, start-up charter. A place where you and the other teachers create the culture of high expectations and discipline is enforced. I will vote Yes because of the school boards across our state unwilling to give these schools a fair shake. Even in great districts, there’s sometimes a better way to ‘do it’ for some kids. If one child is hands on, why shouldn’t his family choose a constructivist curriculum at a charter school? Does that mean the really great non-charter public school has failed? Not at all.
As for money, when you guys hear Barge talk about the higher funding, he’s only talking state funds. Remember, the state approved schools receive zero local money even though they may have 300 local children. When you add up the dollars from all sources, the state charter operates on less than $.70 to every dollar the non-charter public schools spend.
I love charter schools! I love that most are working for the families that choose them. I love that they can be shut down. I look forward to voting yes.
Get Real
October 20th, 2012
7:30 am
If you believe in expanded state government, vote yes. That’s all this is. We already have charter schools. Some are approvwed by the local school board. Some are approved by the state school board. Why do we need more bureacracy to do what’s already being done? The only difference here is the for profit out of state corporations that will come to GA to run the new schools and make a a boat-load of money. Who’s paying them? Us, the taxpayer. Vote a resounding no.
teacher&mom
October 20th, 2012
7:42 am
@Bruno: Spending per pupil rose by 10% over a 9 year time frame. So….we raised funding, on average, a little over 1% per year.
How generous!
At the same time we were “raising” student funding, the state was cutting other areas of funding. For example, the tab for who pays the transportation costs has shifted significantly over this same time frame.
Smoke and mirrors is what Kyle is providing.
http://gbpi.org/survey-says-trouble-for-schools
Janes
October 20th, 2012
7:57 am
I’d love to see where all this increased funding has gone. Teachers haven’t had raises in 4 years. They still have furlough days. Clas sizes are the same. The number if in school support staff has gone down. They hav to provide their win supplies etc.
Obviously education professionals can’t get the job done. We don’t need charter schools. We need to replace the school boards and admin offices with corp. executives who will run schiols like a business. who will fund what works, defund what doesn’t, get rid of dead weight, advance the successful and get rid of the social experimentation that goes on.
DeborahinAthens
October 20th, 2012
8:22 am
Someone might have already mentioned this, but Sonny cut education funding to the bone so he could build a fish museum to which no one comes. Then Deal has cut yet again, so your position that we are throwing more money at education is totally false. If we funded our public school education programs, we might see improvement. Why do we keep trying to reinvent the wheel? Why not look to Finland and France, both of which beat the crap out of us? We have too many administrators and too few qualified teachers. By the way, to my knowledge, both Finland and France have strong teacher unions, so that old saw about teacher unions being responsible for our failure doesn’t cut it.
carlosgvv
October 20th, 2012
8:38 am
Spending more and more money on traditional schools is part of a social experiment designed to bring black student overall scores to the same level as white ones.
Charter schools are being pushed by Christian Conservative fanatics in order to bring Christ into the classrooms, get rid of traditional science, and replace it with creationism and “the infallible word of God”.
The ultra liberals and Christian fanatics only care about their own agendas. What’s actually best for the students and our Country, to them, is a dim and distant second.
catlady
October 20th, 2012
8:50 am
No, Kyle, it isn’t about “spending more money.” It is about spending the amount called for according to QBE, which we have not done in about ten years. And the effect of that is actually multiplicative, rather than additive. In addition, children in school, over the last ten years, have become EVEN MORE NEEDY. Finally, the federal government requires ever-increasing spending, especially in sped.
Lynn43
October 20th, 2012
8:59 am
Kyle’s figures do not add up to what is coming into my system from the state. Also, all tax digests are way down which diminishes the local share. The state once supplied over 60% of a school budget, but they are now down in the 40% range. Transportation once was about 30%. Now it is down in the teens, and charter schools are eligible for transportation grants even thought they provide no transportation (HB797). The state is slowly getting out of paying anything to public schools but still want to make all the rules and regulations to run them.
Numbers-R-US
October 20th, 2012
9:03 am
Between 2002 and 2011, state funding per pupil rose by 10 percent.
That’s your basis for “we tried that” — e.g., spending more money, Kyle. Really Kyle. Meanwhile, never mind the fact that inflation is up 25% in that timeframe. If you want to talk about a real “we tried that”, Kyle, tell us how much health insurance premiums have gone up over that time frame and then follow that up with your claims that the US healthcare system is working just fine and we don’t need the changes brought to us by “ObamaCare”.
the red herring
October 20th, 2012
9:04 am
amen kyle—people really need to look at how much of their tax dollars are going to school administration (central offices) as opposed to the class room. Putting more money in is not the solution –if it were the problem would have been solved a long time ago. Many of our schools have become cesspools of cronyism and nepotism. A new business model needs to implemented to achieve success. College educations have become unaffordable due to some of the same spend,spend, spend mentality—look at the new schools, college buildings and dorms (not mention amenities in them) —taxpayers can’t keep up with their spending on these things. Like our federal govt. the spending on education has simply been out of hand for a long time. We must make some changes. Nearly every county in my area of the state has bought land and rebuilt all their schools with splost money and yet the splost never stops. Riding by a private school a few months back (prior to school starting) there were parents, students, and teachers cleaning up in and around the school. They were painting, cutting grass, etc, etc. They take pride in their old buildings and schools and do some of their own work to cut costs. I wonder why we don’t see the same thing happening with our public schools? Our private schools have one headmaster and teachers while our public schools have superintendents, asst. supt., several principals and vice-principals and we wonder why they want more and more money. It’s simple math too many chiefs and not enough indians nor enough taxpayers.
Finn McCool is wrong
October 20th, 2012
9:22 am
Charter schools are public schools!!! Guess what?! YOUR kid can go there!! I am a charter parent and in addition to my tax dollars, I donate much more… time included. It’s about so much more than where the money is going. It’s about parent involvement, and what is best for the children. I feel that my child has benefitted so much more from the charter school than any other school. If our school closes, what will happen? These hundreds of kids will be dumped right back into the already overcrowded county school systems…. then what? Read the facts, talk to the “non exclusive” parents and LISTEN. You might be pleasantly surprised.
@@
October 20th, 2012
9:24 am
According to U.S. News, three of the top ten high schools in Georgia are charter schools.
Numbers-R-US
October 20th, 2012
9:25 am
No Child Left Behind is a failure. We can honestly say we tried it and it did not work. Let’s see how locally controlled schools do without that weight dragging them down. Meanwhile, Kyle and others should be free to pay the full cost of sending their children to any alternate school they want while their property taxes are still utilized to fund the public school system. I think that’s their right.
Numbers-R-US
October 20th, 2012
9:26 am
According to U.S. News, three of the top ten high schools in Georgia are charter schools.
And it did not take any new legislation to accomplish that. Vote no to more state control.
catlady
October 20th, 2012
9:31 am
Here is how it SHOULD work. My local school board has denied the application of a group of citizens for a charter school. It would not be corporate-run. After the second denial, the voters went to the polls and turned out all three board members up for election. The other two will not be in office after the next opportunity to vote. Now, you have to understand that in elections here the voters ALWAYS return the incumbents. It is unheard-of that one be denied re-election, much less all three.
Now, the system is talking about “becoming a charter system.” No one thinks this will happen, it’s just a delaying tactic, but but it shows how shaken up the leaders are about the flexing of political muscle by the electorate.
If your system denies a charter that the people want, turn them out! THAT is the American way!
yeah, that
October 20th, 2012
10:01 am
I’m a con and I say no. If I want a charter school ill vote in a LOCAL board to do it.
If you vote no, then you aren’t likely to ever get a chance to vote in a local board to do it. It really is that simple. If states don’t get involved, which local board of education is likely to give up power or money to charter schools? Which politician (and BOE members ARE politicians) has ever voluntarily given up power?
(none)
That’s what I thought.
Steve
October 20th, 2012
10:05 am
I don’t have kids so why am I paying taxes for YOUR kids???
(Kidding – trying to channel a rightwing nut)
Seriously, though, we need to scrap the public school system, completely overhaul it and start over. It’s a disaster here, and surely there are better models from other countries we should try.
Lee
October 20th, 2012
10:47 am
It’s not the amount of money we spend on public schools, it is how the schools spend it. For example:
1. Do we really need to pay premiums for teachers with graduate degrees? PE teachers with Phd’s anyone? For that matter, do elementary grade teachers really need a college degree? Back in the 60s, my mom was a teacher. She had some college, but not a degree.
2. Capital expenditures. A few years ago, my hometown built a new high school at a cost of some $25 million. They then shut down the old high school and sold it for pennies on the dollar. I think the net gain was about ten classrooms. Conversely, my daughter’s private school has historic buildings 70+ years old. A little maintenance goes a long way.
3. Central office staff. ‘Nuff said.
4. Poke around the school dumpster around June. You’d be amazed what these schools throw out.
5. And with all the money we taxpayers fork over, teachers still line up in August to buy basic classroom supplies with their own money. Most teachers spend several hundred (if not more) each year on things that really should be the school’s responsibility to buy.
I could go on and on, but you get the picture.
As far as the charter school amendment, there is already a process to get them approved. We don’t need another layer of bureaucracy. I’m voting no.
getalife
October 20th, 2012
11:12 am
“Report: GOP Document Dump Exposes Libyans Working With U.S.” Aol.
There they go again. Outing intell folks again. Strike three.
And
“CIA Docs Supported Administration’s Initial Benghazi Attack Assessment” Aol.
The last debate just got more interesting.
td
October 20th, 2012
11:17 am
catlady
October 20th, 2012
9:31 am
The sky must be falling because I agree with you 100%. Vote out the local board members if they do not do the will of the people. No to this Amendment is a yes to local control.
B. Thenet
October 20th, 2012
11:47 am
If your child is in “a bad school”, instead of taking government money to start a new school that has no guarantee of being any better….perhaps you should get involved in the local PTA. Work to make positive changes in your school.
I don’t see the big difference between throwing more money at an existing school versus throwing money at a new school. The idea that you would take this decision away from local governments and put it in the hands of the state government is simply hilarious.
If you are a lazy parent who can’t be bothered to get involved in improving your school district, you should spend a little extra money on a home/apartment located within a good school district. But don’t think you can “save money” on a home in a poor school district and just expect the state to bail out your poor decision by magically creating a new school for you.
Dusty
October 20th, 2012
11:54 am
Hmmmm interesting discussion of charter schools vs ;public schools
Charters sound so good. but I can’t help but wonder what will happen in a few years. I suspect they will soon be quite similar to our present public schools. Charters will have to meet the same standards and requirements, probably use many of the same textbooks, have teachers who were educated with the same educational principles to follow.
As to parent participations, public schools do have PTA organizations .There is quite an exceptional public school right down the street from me. Gets in the news with its many good projects.
Educated in public schools, I can’t believe that they can’t be improved. I also believe they teach EVERYBODY, not only those with good parents and good homes and good clothes and great influences, they teach (and rescue sometimes) all that come.
I know. If something doesn’t work, design a new one. But, there are so many good things about public schools, I hate to “throw out the baby with the bath water”. or somethng like that. .
MarkV
October 20th, 2012
12:00 pm
I do not want to ruin Dusty’s day, therefore I have no comment on this subject.
Dusty
October 20th, 2012
12:06 pm
Go ahead, Mark V. There are always exceptions.
@@
October 20th, 2012
12:35 pm
Numbers:
And it did not take any new legislation to accomplish that. Vote no to more state control.
None of those top charters were in Clayton County. Our school board can’t get out of their own way, much less the parents’.
Write-in Garland Watkins for Sheriff!
LarryMajor
October 20th, 2012
1:02 pm
The state funding description is inaccurate.
In FY2003, the state introduced a funding cut called “Austerity Reduction.” As a result, there have been five subsequent years when state per student funding was less than 2002 levels. The lowest level (so far) was FY2012, when school systems received about 10 percent less state funding than they received in FY2002.
Expecting state education funding to return to a decade old level is hardy an unreasonable position.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 20th, 2012
1:03 pm
The rub to the argument of local control is that local control in some of these rural counties is absolutely abysmal. Some of the BOE’s are so rapt up in racial issues and financial malfeasance, that they are just gridlocked. The last thing they are going to vote to do is share their limited resources, with a school they have little control over. Elections do not work as each election you can only replace a few and once in, they quickly get compromised and start spouting the group think agenda of we can’t afford a charter school.
I have no school age children or grandchildren, so I am just an interested observer and taxpayer. I think we get more education for the buck at Charter schools, so why not give them a try. It seems futile to continue trying to do the same things better, but always getting the same miserable results. If you live in a great school district, then you shouldn’t have to worry about anyone wanting to start a charter.
Gail
October 20th, 2012
1:19 pm
When people talk of school funding/cost per student, An important piece is hidden, I would think that the cost to educate some special education students is much greater than the cost to educate most regular education students.
Please don’t take this the wrong way. I am not saying special education students do not deserve a quality education. But, when you are talk about money spent per child you shouldn’t compare charter/private schools to public schools since the charter and private schools probably have very few special education students. I could be wrong,but I don’t know where to find these costs separated out.
Tom
October 20th, 2012
1:32 pm
Maybe we should stop paying superintendents more than the Vice President and principals more than the Governor? Who decided on these ridiculous compensation levels? For those who argue that school administrators can earn more in the private sector, I’d like to see them try: Companies have little use for education “Ph.D.’s” with no practical business experience.
MarkV
October 20th, 2012
1:56 pm
Dusty @ 12:06 pm
If you insist.
As a product of public schools, which have given me good education, I believe that they can and must be improved. I am not particularly opposed to charter schools, but I do not believe that they are the solution. I do believe that the teacher unions bear a lot of blame, but my view is mainly that it is a very complex and difficult problem, which cannot be solved by some slogans. On the other hand, it is not useless to offer good ideas, and I look forward to reading some here.
Numbers-R-US
October 20th, 2012
2:29 pm
Between 2002 and 2011, state funding per pupil rose by 10 percent.
Yes it rose between those two years. The sophist, Kyle, just conveniently neglected to point out that it rose going from 2011 to 2002.
adam smith's invisible hand
October 20th, 2012
3:19 pm
So, there’s some trick that charter schools know that allows them to educate children, but, rather than implement this special methodology everywhere, we’re just going to keep it and only use it in charter schools. You do know this makes no sense whatsoever.
Dusty
October 20th, 2012
4:49 pm
Ideas for school improvement …I’m trying
How about frugality??? Naw, nobody knows what that means these days.
How about sponsors with restrictions/rules? Don’t institutions of higher learning have alumni giving, buildings built with their name on them,and other such goodies. The local grocery could sponsor PiddlyDunk school. (Sponsers should not serve on school boards.)What’s the ratio of sucessful businesses & public schools?
No parking lots except for teachers & officials.
New disciplinary rules with work projects for punishment.
Limited number of days that substitutes can be used by a teacher.
Metal seats on school buses. Inspires walking. Less replacements.
No football and no concussions Have competetive shop/electronic classes (who can fix a broken computer the fastest)
Allow military training electives in upper grades. .
Parents who miss teacher conferences without a good excuse or no excuse should have their names listed in school newsletters.
Art and music taught by local volunteers who have some training.
OK…that’s all. You can throw all of them out.
Dusty
October 20th, 2012
5:17 pm
By the way, I just read where some posters were fuming about Georgia governors making cuts in their budgets including education.
Is it possible that someone does not know that states are in debt? That our country is in debt by the trillions?
I commend any public official who is trying to balance a budget and cut expenses and that includes the governor of Georgia.
cc
October 20th, 2012
5:45 pm
Dusty, I have yet to find anything that you have posted with which I disagreed. Your above posts are no exception. Great ideas!
cc
October 20th, 2012
5:47 pm
I voted YES on the Charter School Amendment.
getalife
October 20th, 2012
6:02 pm
The gop attack on education is working.
They want uneducated and gullible voters.
cc
October 20th, 2012
6:10 pm
“They want uneducated and gullible voters.”
You are the very best example available of an “uneducated and gullible” voter, getalife, and you were a product of the dimocrat “attack on education”.
MarkV
October 20th, 2012
6:26 pm
Dusty @4:49 pm
Dusty,
Some of what you have suggested might be good ideas, but those are, in my opinion, fairly peripheral issues. I think most people realize that one of the main issues,and perhaps the most important one, is the quality of teachers. Here is why I wrote that I believed the teacher unions were mcuh to blame, because of their opposition to firing of bad teachers. On the other hand, I understand very well that they are opposed to firings based on arbitrary criteria, which might sound good on paper but at closer inspection are not fair.
The other main issue, I believe, is the role of the parents – another difficult problem to solve.
Li'l Aynie
October 20th, 2012
6:35 pm
Do you notice that every discussion of education turns immediately to money and organization, instead of what teachers are teaching, and what students are learning.
Turns out the money could be flushed down the toilet for all the good it does, and the organization (public vs. charter, federal vs. local, state vs. local) is another case of arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Apple, the most valuable American corporation has explained why Apple products cannot and will not be manufactured in the US. There simply are not American engineers to manage manufacturing processes. China is graduating hundreds of thousands of engineers yearly; some of them from US schools like MIT, Caltech, and Georgia Tech. Science and engineering are not popular majors for most American college students! … all that math!
Could we focus on the fundamentals of education instead of the politics of education?
td
October 20th, 2012
6:45 pm
MarkV
October 20th, 2012
6:26 pm
“The other main issue, I believe, is the role of the parents – another difficult problem to solve.”
The role of parents or the attitude of parents is the whole answer. When you have a parents that makes the education of their children the number 1 priority in the house then you have children that succeed no matter what school they are placed in. When parents make education a priority but not the top priority then children may or may not succeed (depending on the child). When parents do not care then the children will fail 95% of the time.
Don't Tread
October 20th, 2012
7:08 pm
“But if our educational dollars aren’t well-spent now, why would we give them more? And why wouldn’t we embrace an amendment that offers a better way?”
Exactly why I voted for it.
MarkV
October 20th, 2012
7:16 pm
td @ 6:45 pm
If we are talking about the quality of schools, then the main issue, in my view, is the quality of the teachers, and how to achieve/improve it. I realize that there are many other issues, some a function of funding, The teacher quality problem, however, is closely related to the difficult and complex problem of fair evaluation.
If we are talking about the quality of education overall, then undoubtedly the home environment and parents’ role are paramount.
td
October 20th, 2012
7:40 pm
MarkV
October 20th, 2012
7:16 pm
I will submit to you that you can take very average teachers and raise the class size to 50 to 1 at Walton HS in Cobb county or Milton HS in Fulton county and over a 4 year period you would not see a substantial in SAT scores.
There are probably a few bad teachers in the system but usually do not stay for long and they all teach the same curriculum. The students that have parents at home that have decided to put in the hours with the children can overcome any weakness of a teacher in the classroom and their children will succeed. I do not care if it is the best school or the worst school in the state.
John L Lightner
October 20th, 2012
7:48 pm
I do not see that charter schools perform any better than regular schools. What I do see is the distinct possibility that state approved charter school will establish student eligibility requirements that will, in effect, be discriminatory. Nothing to stop them from restricting enrollment to “special groups”.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 20th, 2012
8:46 pm
Well, John, so far charter schools seem to be targeted at black kids.
I’m sure you have a huge problem with that.
Mary Elizabeth
October 20th, 2012
8:47 pm
“FACT: The public needs to realize that almost 60% of the state commission charter schools (not charter schools approved locally) had contracts with EMOs (for-profit education management organizations) vs. only 12% of all other startup charter schools in Georgia, which means a portion of the $86 million in state funds these schools receive go to out-of-state companies.”
“FACT: The state (of Georgia) has already cut $4.4 billion from schools since 2008.”
“What it (Amendment 1) means to our public schools. Shorter school calendars. Ballooning class sizes. Lost jobs. More furlough days. Fewer programs and resources for Georgia students. Amendment 1 siphons money and resources from already underfunded traditional public schools and existing public charter schools. That money then goes into the coffers of state commission-approved charter schools often run by out-of-state, for-profit charter school management companies.”
“Did you KNOW? According to the Georgia Supreme Court, the state clearly overstepped when it created the state commission to approve charter schools. That commission approved charter school applications until the Georgia Supreme Court ruled that UNCONSTITUTIONAL this past year. The power to authorize charter schools belongs (exclusively ) to local school boards as stated in our Constitution.”
“FACT: There is already a policy in place for reviewing charter school applications by local school boards + there’s already an appeals process in place, too.”
“Our students – the future of our state – deserve more than Amendment 1 can promise. While the preamble that appears above the amendment language on the ballot promises to improve student achievement and parental involvement, we know that it might do that – but only for the very few. ALL children across Georgia deserve the equal opportunity to learn in engaging, innovative, creative, and safe classrooms and schools. We build those classrooms and schools by investing in public education – not strip-mining it for big profit.”
Source for the above quotes: KNOW Magazine from GAE, Volume 11, Issue 1
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 20th, 2012
8:51 pm
Union propaganda, Mary Elizabeth?
Lame.
Del
October 20th, 2012
8:58 pm
Where I’m fortunate to leave the public schools are great with highly motivated and capable teachers. Unfortunately, that’s not the case statewide and nationally. Competition typically brings out the best and charter schools can provide that competition. We need to move on from the union mentality that even though teachers unions no longer exist in Georgia that mentality still lives on.
Del
October 20th, 2012
9:20 pm
OOP’s fortunate to live not leave.
Rockstar
October 20th, 2012
9:22 pm
I am not opposed to charter schools. But for me, approval of the charter amendment will continue the devaluing of elections at the local level. We cannot say the elections matter at the national and state level, but because we may not like how democratically-elected school board members vote, the State’s appointed commission will override their decisions. Just think about it this way for a moment. Parents in a community want a liberal arts college built to compete with a local university. The university has large class sizes, which does not appeal to the parents, and most of it’s graduates leave the community. The Board of Regents does not approve the college, and the parents appeal to the U.S. Department of Education. The appeal is granted under authority newly given by the Congress and signed into law by the President. The State files suit with the federal court citing an overreach of federal control and wins, but Congress votes to change the U.S Constitution, given authority to the Education Department to approve the college at the parent request, but in opposition of the democratically-elected Georgia legislators, the Governor, and the appointed Board of Regents members. Now I realize this scenario is filled with hypotheticals, but imagine the response from our Governor and General Assembly….
Mary Elizabeth
October 20th, 2012
9:29 pm
I believe in the free enterprise system and in capitalism as the best economic engine for our nation, but I do not believe that public education should be part of that profit-oriented enterprise. Public education must not be used as a profit-making enterprise for profiteers who would use children for profit purposes to enrich themselves. Public education needs to remain as Jefferson envisioned it – paid for by public taxes to serve all of society’s children. Public education can be improved with the help of some public charter schools, but not those established through the politically based, imo, state Commission for Charter Schools which the Constitutional Amendment would establish.
The membership of the State Commission of Charter Schools would come from a list supplied by Georgia’s House Majority Leader and Georgia’s President of the Senate, as well as from the Governor, all of whom are Republican politicians. In addition, Rep. Jan Jones and Rep. Edward Lindsey, who sponsored HR 1162 which became the Constitutional Amendment, are both members of the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC). Please preview the link, below, to see how ALEC has had its political influence into this legislation. Rep. Jones is part of the Educational Task Force of ALEC as well as on the Education Committee of Georgia’s House of Representatives.”
http://mediamatters.org/research/2012/05/09/how-alec-is-quietly-influencing-education-refor/184156
Vote NO to Amendment 1 in NOvember.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 20th, 2012
9:35 pm
If an evil for-profit corporation can do a better job of educating children at equal or lower cost than the government, there is absolutely no reason not to go that route.
Last time I checked, public school teachers weren’t showing up every day just for the fun of it…they do it for their own greedy profit motive.
Mary Elizabeth
October 20th, 2012
9:44 pm
I urge readers of this blog to take a few minutes to listen to the teenage students in the video below – which they produced – explain succinctly why you should vote NO to Amendment 1 in NOvember.
http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2012/10/18/student-produced-video-questions-push-for-charter-schools-amendment/
td
October 20th, 2012
9:47 pm
Lil’ Barry Bailout – Vote American
October 20th, 2012
9:35 pm
We agree 98% of the time but I disagree with you on this one. Schools are not the problem. The problem is the parents and until we the people get sick and tired of the sorry parents then education is not going to change no matter how much we spend or who is providing it. With that said a central core principle of conservatism is local control and this amendment takes away from local control so I am opposed to it on that philosophical principle and feel all conservatives should as well.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 20th, 2012
9:55 pm
Any ideas on how to fix the parent problem, td?
Perhaps the biggest cause of the parent problem is single-parent families.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 20th, 2012
9:59 pm
Children do best when raised in a normal, two parent family with a mom and a dad. That really gets the libtards hacked off.
Don’t fear facts, libtards.
Cherokee
October 20th, 2012
10:18 pm
Usually it’s cons who will wail about ‘local control’.
Yet here is a situation where they want the state to be able to step in and make decisions for local school districts.
Could it be that conservatives have no real core values? Say it ain’t so!
td
October 20th, 2012
10:45 pm
Lil’ Barry Bailout – Vote American
October 20th, 2012
9:55 pm
Peer pressure is a good start and then you give incentives to the correct behavior and punish bad behavior. This should not be a left or right issue but an American issue. All Americans should shame parents that refuse to make education their first priority. Welfare should be attached to the grades children receive and then we would not have generational welfare.
Look at other countries like Japan. If you are a child in school and are not excelling in the classroom or are not behaving in the classroom then it brings shame to your entire family.
Dr. Pangloss
October 20th, 2012
10:59 pm
LeRoi2
October 19th, 2012
6:25 pm
My daughter is a HS teacher. She started teaching after a few years in the business world, and tired of the long hours and the competitiveness. She says it is a cake walk. Easiest job she could imagine. She teaches 5 classes a day of about 40 students, with an assistant. She puts in 40 hours a week, and never has to go over. She loves all of the time off, and the stress free atmosphere.
What she dislikes the most is all of the long time teachers doing nothing but complaining how hard their jobs are, how many hours they work, how parents dont help, etc. She says most of these teachers have been around over 20 years, have never had a job other than teaching, make $85K per year for a 10 month year, and have no idea what a real job entails. They also make no effort to teach, believing that they are already under paid just for showing up.
We need to get these kinds of burnout cases out of the schools. End tenure, hold teachers accountable for how much the students learn in their classes.
————————–
Nobody who is teaching 5 classes of 40 students is getting away with a 40-hour work week. That’s just not possible. Anybody who has had any connection with teaching knows that.
Decatur Joe
October 20th, 2012
11:16 pm
Kyle, thank you for your opinion. I agree with you.
Could you explain why your co-worker Maureen Downey is allowed to be so one sided in her education blog? She has always killed charter schools and most expecially the charter commission? Is it her job to be so one sided in her opinion?
I would ask her, but she does not allow me to post on her blog?
Decatur Joe
October 20th, 2012
11:18 pm
Mary Elizabeth, oh please! The kids are good actors, but they did not write that. M
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 21st, 2012
5:38 am
Cherokee: Usually it’s cons who will wail about ‘local control’.
———————-
Parents having school choice is the ultimate local control.
It’s usually libtards who will wail about “choice”, unless it interferes with their ability to control.
jezel
October 21st, 2012
7:17 am
LeRoi2
If your daughter is only putting in a 40 hour week …there is a good chance she will not be teaching for very long.
Numbers-R-US
October 21st, 2012
8:07 am
If the state takes control of education does this mean we can get rid of county and city governments and all the expenses associated with them. Let’s do it and then we can all get a tax cut.
juddist
October 21st, 2012
8:27 am
Kkkyle,
Please look at the states school rating system. Georgia is pretty low but the states on top spends a lot more money than GA, any correlation. Have you been to any charter schools? How well are they run? Did you know that private schools have the right to turn away any student it does not want, learning disabilities, mental disabilities, etc. Unless your child is perfect one should be very careful in what they vote for. I know KKKyle’s children are or will be perfect.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 21st, 2012
8:30 am
Meet Romney’s Economic Hitman
http://www.alternet.org/election-2012/meet-romneys-economic-hitman
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 21st, 2012
8:34 am
If your daughter is only putting in a 40 hour week …there is a good chance she will not be teaching for very long.
That’s a poor attitude. Some people can do much more in a given time period than others. Some are more effective teachers, workers, etc. Some can cut through the riff rafff much faster than others.
The attitude posted above is that of the tattle-tell who watches to see who is leaving work early or coming in late. It’s a sad life.
cc
October 21st, 2012
8:38 am
td, I rarely, if ever, disagree with you, but on the issue of the charter school amendment I must make an exception. Charter schools represent freedom of choice and the most basic of “local control”: a decision made by parents. I recommend to you the following article minus the comments of the all too predictable detractors. Virginia Galloway states the case far better than I can.
http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2012/09/24/charter-school-amendment-is-the-epitome-of-small-government/
cc
October 21st, 2012
8:49 am
“I know KKKyle’s children are or will be perfect.”
This one sentence tells what you are all about and weakens your entire argument.
cc
October 21st, 2012
8:52 am
Finn McCool@8:34 am:
Just when I was certain we would never agree on anything, you write something I completely agree with!
@@
October 21st, 2012
9:00 am
Dusty:
Parents who miss teacher conferences without a good excuse or no excuse should have their names listed in school newsletters.
My daughter would LUV that one. She has five schools on her schedule…all low-income. Except for her charter school parents, none show up for conferences. They won’t answer her calls or e-mails. When they don’t, she catches them during pick-up or drop-off. Goes in early to catch them at drop-off. They promise to show up and never do. Flimsy excuses are all she gets.
Still…she trudges on…doing the very best she can to serve the children’s needs.
Disgusted in Dekalb
October 21st, 2012
9:33 am
So, instead of fixing what we have (and accounting for all the money going in to it), we create a new parallel system and throw more money into it? Then we have two black holes sucking up our money.
The problem isn’t the education system, it is the administration of the education system. As usual, our kids are being screwed over by bureaucrats.
Disgusted in Dekalb
October 21st, 2012
9:37 am
What is truly pathetic is NO ONE is concerned about our kids. They’re concerned about the money or their agenda or some official who they think isn’t doing their job.
Its not about our kids, its about people getting THEIR way, not doing whats best for the kids. It is one of the biggest problems in our country today, the ARROGANCE of people. Everyone thinks their way is right and they are not inclined or able to compromise on ANYTHING.
@@
October 21st, 2012
9:45 am
Money doesn’t appear to be the problem.
1. New York
• Spending per pupil: $18,126
• Graduation rate: 72 percent
2. Washington, D.C.
• Spending per pupil: $16,408
• Graduation rate: 43 percent
3. New Jersey
• Spending per pupil: $16,271
• Graduation rate: 87 percent
4. Alaska
• Spending per pupil: $15,552
• Graduation rate: 66 percent
5. Vermont
• Spending per pupil: $15,175
• Graduation rate: 82 percent
6. Wyoming
• Spending per pupil: $14,573
• Graduation rate: 71 percent
7. Connecticut
• Spending per pupil: $14,531
• Graduation rate: 79 percent
45. Nevada
• Spending per pupil: $8,422
• Graduation rate: 44 percent
46. Mississippi
• Spending per pupil: $8,075
• Graduation rate: 61 percent
47. Tennessee
• Spending per pupil: $7,897
• Graduation rate: 77 percent
48. Oklahoma
• Spending per pupil: $7,855
• Graduation rate: 70 percent
49. Arizona
• Spending per pupil: $7,813
• Graduation rate: 67 percent
50. Idaho
• Spending per pupil: $7,092
• Graduation rate: 76 percent
51. Utah
• Spending per pupil: $6,356
• Graduation rate: 72 percent
Mary Elizabeth
October 21st, 2012
9:48 am
Just posted on Maureen Downey’s “Get Schooled” blog:
SEE, 9:35 am
“I can easily see someone abusing this system by starting ‘charter’ schools in several counties through bribes and political connections and making money for 5 years until the charters are forced to close. If it happens on the local level, then it will probably happen on a state level.”
========================================
Mary Elizabeth: “SEE, I am glad you see the picture and have stated it so well, above. To put it bluntly, imo, many have been duped, and by forces outside of Georgia (as well as within Georgia).”
cc
October 21st, 2012
9:57 am
Disgusted in Dekalb@9:33 am and 9:37 am:
Your first post expresses your opinion, and in your second post you write, “Everyone thinks their way is right and they are not inclined or able to compromise on ANYTHING.”
It doesn’t appear that you wish to compromise anything.
cc
October 21st, 2012
10:34 am
@@, money isn’t the problem. The government has thrown money at education for decades and has pitifully little to show for it.
Teaching once was a “calling”, but it now is merely a job for many people. I shall always be grateful that my education came at the hands of very dedicated professionals.
td
October 21st, 2012
10:41 am
cc
October 21st, 2012
8:38 am
I have been debating Virginia, her husband Darrel and several other AFP members over this issue for about three months now on Facebook. Yes they say it is total local control but when I ask them if they have control over discipline?, Curriculum? or the money then they have no answer. So my friend how can it be local control when you do not control these important issues?
On top of those questions if we pull all the cream of the crop (children whose parents place education as the number 1 priority) then what happens to the other 2/3 of the children in our schools? What happens to the special needs children? Where is the incentive to change these schools since all the parents that care have their children in these protected schools?
Think about those questions my friend and look at 20 years from now tell me what the gaps in education are going to look like then?
td
October 21st, 2012
10:48 am
cc
October 21st, 2012
8:38 am
Just one more point my friend. Charters do nothing but to segregate children (not racially but along the lines of parents that do and do not care if their children get an education). If you want true competition then vouchers is the answer and gives the parent the ultimate control because they control the money.
zeke
October 21st, 2012
10:50 am
What is Obozo’s favorite rant? We tried that before, it didn’t work. But in his case it is just another democrat lie! What is true is that they have tried the democrat socialist agenda since 1900 and IT STILL WILL NOT WORK! Government schools are no more than indoctrination centers that mangle the minds of mush that are our children! Throwing more and more money and other resources at this failed education system is useless! We have tried it for decades, it makes no difference, IT DOES NOT WORK!!!
mark.
October 21st, 2012
10:56 am
So, lets be capitalist, lets pay the “high need areas” more, due to less supply. Maybe we can convince a GT physics grad to teach physics or chemsitry, instead of getting that $80000 enginneering job. by the way- there are no unions in Georgia education, a teacher can be fired by doing all the paper work, it is not hard. I belong to PAGE for a 1million dollar liability insurance, plus a lawyer if I need one. cc, it was once called a “calling”, back when teacher’s childern were on free lunch programs.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 21st, 2012
11:02 am
So Conservatives are inconsistent because they spout local control but are for this amendment. As LBB pointed out, the most local control rests with the parent.
Libs spout “choice”, when a woman is deciding whether to carry a child to term or abort it. But, they are for no choice, when a woman is unhappy with the school her child attends.
Mary Elizabeth
October 21st, 2012
11:07 am
“Teaching once was a ‘calling’, but it now is merely a job for many people. I shall always be grateful that my education came at the hands of very dedicated professionals.”
========================================
I am a retired teacher. No one could have considered teaching to be a “calling” more than I. After I retired in 2000, I worked as a substitute teacher until 2006. I continued to see dedicated teachers in each of the 10 schools in which I functioned as a substitute teacher through 2006.
Please vote NO on NOvember 6 to defeat the Constitutional Amendment, and then work in your local districts to make traditional public education better, with the support of public charter schools which have been authorized by local school districts or by the State Board of Education.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 21st, 2012
11:09 am
td
I agree with you assessment that the children who have parents who care about education will gravitate toward the Charter schools, I just do not agree that that in itself is all bad. Yes, the public schools will be left with children, whose parents do not care.
This is much like the compulsory attendance laws. Do we raise the age, where students, can legally drop out of school? If so, we afflict the schools with unmotivated students, that cause discipline problems, or do we just let them go to save the education for the remaining students.
It is a difficult problem, but we need to work on solutions that will motivate parents and students, to stick it out and focus on education during their youth. Until we get there, we need to do what is best for each and every child, not try to treat them all the same, and wind up with teaching to the lowest common denominator.
Huh?
October 21st, 2012
11:16 am
“Maybe we can convince a GT physics grad to teach physics or chemsitry, instead of getting that $80000 enginneering (sic) job.”
You can’t become an engineer with a physics degree alone. You need a…wait for it…engineering degree to become an engineer.
cc
October 21st, 2012
11:16 am
zeke:
While I agree with your entire comment, I especially agree with, “Government schools are no more than indoctrination centers that mangle the minds of mush that are our children!”
Real Athens
October 21st, 2012
11:25 am
There are lots of solutions, Kyle. You’re just paid not to report on them lest they go against your slant or your masters.
Spend more money? Um, how about restore funding cut in the last 8 years. Georgia has been cutting roughly $1 Billion per year in education funding since Perdue was governor. Oh, I forgot that would cut into the cash that our governor uses to reward friends, family, campaign supporters and himself.
Why no mention that 96% of the funds spent backing this amendment come from out of state? If you want to send your kid to private school get the Koch Brothers to pay for it in return for your unquestioning servitude on the editorial page.
What a hack.
http://empoweredga.org/OurBeliefs/beliefs.html
Rightwing Troll
October 21st, 2012
11:33 am
Wingnuts are perfectly OK with trying failed economic and foreign policies over and over again until it works… why not education?
Rightwing Troll
October 21st, 2012
11:34 am
“Georgia schools are no more than indoctrination centers that mangle the minds of mush that are our children!”
This places proves that on a daily basis…
cc
October 21st, 2012
11:45 am
“OK with trying failed economic and foreign policies”
By “failed” policies, I assume you mean those that worked for 232 years and gave Americans the highest standard of living on Earth?
By “failed” policies, I would also assume that you mean those that made America a dominant power (some might say THE dominant power) in the world?
Only in the past nearly four years have we slipped, and that has been due to a president that seeks to abandon all that has made America great.
Fortunately, that is about to change . . .
adam smith's invisible hand
October 21st, 2012
11:53 am
Why give the money to schools when we can let Nathan Deal give it to his friends on shady land deals. By the way, the land may have some shade.
Real Athens
October 21st, 2012
11:55 am
Written by the former head of the Republican Party in Georgia (Lee Raudonis) — a holdover from a time when there was a modicum of common sense involved in politics in this state instead of blind partisanship and one party rule.
http://empoweredga.org/Articles/Raudonis/madness-of-ga-ed-policies.html
Real Athens
October 21st, 2012
12:12 pm
“Only in the past nearly four years have we slipped, and that has been due to a president that seeks to abandon all that has made America great.”
Ahhh, the dreaded four year memory syndrome, accompanied by amnesia of the previous 8.
Rightwing Troll
October 21st, 2012
12:49 pm
“By “failed” policies, I assume you mean those that worked for 232 years and gave Americans the highest standard of living on Earth?
By “failed” policies, I would also assume that you mean those that made America a dominant power (some might say THE dominant power) in the world?
Only in the past nearly four years have we slipped, and that has been due to a president that seeks to abandon all that has made America great.
Fortunately, that is about to change . . .”
No Mr. Silly Pants…
I was referring to the disastrous policies of 2000-2008 that you wingnuts seem dead set on reanimating… I realize those years don’t exist in the wingnut collective memory, but I assure they DID happen…
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 21st, 2012
12:50 pm
I look at it this way.
This amendment merely provides an appeals process for charter schools to employ if they are given short shrift by their local BOE’s, and let’s face it, with the number of government-school toadies on (and advising) local BOE’s, you get that quick dismissal a LOT at the local level.
I have no problem with an appeals process being available when local boards can’t or won’t do their job.
This is nothing more than that.
Mary Elizabeth
October 21st, 2012
1:14 pm
The Constitutional Amendment is more political than educational, in my opinion. Children “trapped” in their present school system already have the option of attending a state charter school by having their parents apply to the State Board of Education to establish a state charter school for them, which will remove them from their local school districts.
The Constitutional Amendment is unnecessary. The fact that it is unnecessary to create state charter schools for parents and children should alert readers to just how political this amendment is. Vote NO in NOvember to this amendment
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 21st, 2012
1:19 pm
“Children “trapped” in their present school system already have the option of attending a state charter school by having their parents apply to the State Board of Education to establish a state charter school for them, which will remove them from their local school districts.
The Constitutional Amendment is unnecessary. The fact that it is unnecessary to create state charter schools for parents and children should alert readers to just how political this amendment is.
OK, first parents can apply to establish a state charter school, but then it is unnecessary for them to do so, all in the same post.
Is there any wonder why people don’t believe teachers (or retired ones) to be the best advocates for educational changes in this country?
bluecoat
October 21st, 2012
1:59 pm
Most I’ve talked to are ok with charter schools.It’s the new appointed state agency they are against.For profit,out of state corporations/entities/people getting our tax dollars.We say less gov.,less spending,and let the people at the local level make the decisions.I think our schools are called county,not state.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 21st, 2012
2:10 pm
So, bluecoat, you’re against this because someone might make a profit and that profit might not be in Georgia, even if the kids have a better chance to be educated?
What’s the goal here? Better education or not?
I don’t care where the money goes if it improves the failing system we have now.
bluecoat
October 21st, 2012
2:28 pm
Yes we could outsource our education to China.I care where our money goes.You know where a great % of our money is,and you don’t care?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 21st, 2012
2:31 pm
Got it bluecoat..
Don’t care about the kids and their education.
Clear as a bell.
crankee-yankee
October 21st, 2012
2:31 pm
The headline should read “Spend LESS money on traditional schools, we are doing that”
How you can equate $5 billion in cuts over 10 years with spending more on education is incomprehensible. You are drinking the kool-aid Kyle.
Mary Elizabeth
October 21st, 2012
2:59 pm
Tiberius, 1:19 pm
“OK, first parents can apply to establish a state charter school, but then it is unnecessary for them to do so, all in the same post.
Is there any wonder why people don’t believe teachers (or retired ones) to be the best advocates for educational changes in this country?”
==========================================
Tiberius, you are quick to judge but you are wrong in your analysis of what I wrote. You either did not read my post correctly, or you do not know the issue sufficiently.
The Constitutional Amendment is unnecessary because it is redundant of what the State Board of Education can already do, namely, to establish state charter schools outside of the jurisdiction of local school districts. When students feel “trapped” by a local district (and some might), then they have, presently, the option (or choice) to apply to the State Board of Education to establish a state charter school. (Most students do not feel “trapped” by their public schools.) The Constitutional Amendment would establish a State Commission for Charter Schools for the purpose of establishing state charter schools, but that role is already being served by the State Board of Education. Therefore, the Constitutional Amendment is a duplication of th option already given to parents to establish a public charter school outside of their school district’s authority, and therefore the constitutional amendment is unnecessary.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 21st, 2012
3:04 pm
OK, so let me get this straight, crankee-yankee, Kyle’s statement based on the state’s own budget numbers show this:
“Between 2002 and 2011, state funding per pupil rose by 10 percent.”
Yet you continue the manta that that there has been $5 billion in cuts to funding. Don’t you mean cuts in the INCREASES to funding, and not actual cuts?
It seems to me that we’ve increased spending, just not to the levels you’d like. If that’s the case, did you go down to your local school board budget meetings in the last 10 years and speak out for a higher school millage rate?
You know, so you can pay for the better education more spending supposedly provides?
Darwin
October 21st, 2012
3:05 pm
So your answer is to privatize government services so that we can enjoy the fruits of more lobbyists taking tax payer money? Voters make their preference known in a non binding referendum about lobbyists influence on politics and now they’re going to vote for more? You can’t make this stuff up.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 21st, 2012
3:06 pm
Mary Elizabeth, “parents” don’t apply for charter schools, charter schools do.
Nice deflection, though.
Mary Elizabeth
October 21st, 2012
3:12 pm
Parents organize to establish charter schools. You quibble.
Beverly Fraud
October 21st, 2012
3:13 pm
What if you can’t convince “the locals” to stop acting IGNORANT? What do you do when “the locals” vote for people like LaChandra Butler-Burks who according to this very paper (correct me if I’m wrong Kyle) ACTIVELY CONSPIRED with Beverly Hall to cover up cheating in Atlanta?
You don’t trust some of the motives of the “for profit” crowd? How could they POSSIBLY be worse than the likes of Butler-Burks and APS as a whole?
Mary Elizabeth
October 21st, 2012
3:26 pm
Beverly, when your intent is to supplant all of public education (not just one system) with quasi-private for-profit schools, you will have changed the very nature of public education in our nation. I will never support public schools which are based on a for-profit model. We have enough “for profit” institutions and industries in this nation today. Public schools must remain free, as much as possible, of profit motivations. Improve public schools, but do not turn them into money-making machines for the greed of profiteers. Children used for profit. Unconscionable.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 21st, 2012
3:33 pm
“Beverly, when your intent is to supplant all of public education (not just one system) with quasi-private for-profit schools, you will have changed the very nature of public education in our nation.”
Yeah, ’cause we don’t want to replace something that has become an abject failure, now do we?
Hillbilly D
October 21st, 2012
3:38 pm
a holdover from a time when there was a modicum of common sense involved in politics in this state instead of blind partisanship and one party rule.
When in the last 150 years or so had Georgia not had one party rule?
Gramma240
October 21st, 2012
3:46 pm
Kyle, I would be in favor of a charter school constitutional amendment except that those waiting behind the scenes are mega-corporations that run for-profit charter schools. If my reading of the amendment is correct, these schools would qualify to receive tax-appropriated FTE funding. My tax dollars going to for-profit schools? I don’t think so.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 21st, 2012
3:48 pm
Again, Gramma240, what is the goal? Better educated kids or potential profit in doing so?
You would deny kids a better education because someone might make a buck doing so?
Master (de)Bater
October 21st, 2012
3:55 pm
After reading a few responses saying that our schools are “underfunded,” I ask:
Underfunded as compared to WHAT?!
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 21st, 2012
3:58 pm
This “I don’t want my tax dollars going to for-profit institutions” is a bunch of malarkey.
Do you think that Kevlar vest your local cop wears is made by someone who doesn’t make a profit? That fire truck? The bullets and jets our military uses?
Tax dollars go to private for-profit firms each and every day, and for great purposes.
Why shouldn’t they go to better educate our future?
Mary Elizabeth
October 21st, 2012
4:16 pm
Most charter schools perform no better than traditional public schools, according to the Stanford Study. Approximately 37% of charter schools do worse than than traditional public schools while only 17% do better.
Some public charter schools can help to enhance traditional public education, but the charter school movement must move slowly enough to assess, with prudence, what this movement is creating, and how effective it is, in Georgia. Moreover, we must not try to dismantle traditional public education in Georgia, but instead seek to improve it. Legislators cannot continue to cut 4.4 billion dollars from public education in Georgia, as it has done in the last four years, and expect it to improve.
Mary Elizabeth
October 21st, 2012
4:18 pm
Correction: as “they” have done in the last four years, not as “it” has done. . .
Halftrack
October 21st, 2012
4:28 pm
The big issue here is money. Public schools don’t want to compete against charter. When schools begin to look to the children’s education welfare and not to unions, pay scales, and size of buildings and number of students, etc. then parents, teachers, and politicians may be better satisfied. Ask any teacher, would they want their children educated here and be prepared for college? and what needs to be changed here for the children?
Beverly Fraud
October 21st, 2012
4:30 pm
@Mary Elizabeth what do you say to those who say “Crawford Lewis? Edmund Heatley? $2100 chairs in the DCSS central office? The guy in Macon who got the taxpayers to pay for a $5000 desk at his previous spot?” What do you say to those who would say those aren’t the exceptions to the status quo, those ARE the status quo?
What would you say to those who would say if the amendment passes, the public schools brought it all upon themselves?
mike
October 21st, 2012
4:49 pm
As stated (much) earlier, this issue is about one thing and one thing only: the right wants to divert their property tax dollars to private Christian schools. Unfortunately, diverting their property tax dollars to private Christian schools will cause everyone else’s property taxes to go up to offset the difference.
Mary Elizabeth
October 21st, 2012
4:51 pm
Beverly Fraud, 4:30 pm
“What would you say to those who would say if the amendment passes, the public schools brought it all upon themselves?”
=============================================
I don’t think in those terms, Beverly. Blame casting has never been my “modus operandi.” I prefer simply to see clearly and solve problems. If corruption exists in certain school systems, or within certain personnel within school systems, then those people must be held accountable. However, I try to keep one eye focused on the present and one eye focused on the future, as to what Georgia will be creating with an inordinate number of public charter schools operated by profit-based private sector management compaies. Just because some corruption exists presently in certain public schools, does not mean that citizens need to “throw out the baby with the bathwater” of all public school systems. An educational delivery model in Georgia in which quasi-private public charter schools would hire management corporations for profit has the potential for much greater corruption than is present currently because that delivery model is primarily based on profit, not public service. Look at what has happened to many of these charter schools in Florida, which started out to be innovating models of instruction, but several years later ended up being agencies for profit with often poor results.
the red herring
October 21st, 2012
5:10 pm
tom @1:32pm — dead on—perhaps as more people take notice of these salaries and positions (not jobs but positions)—it doesn’t take that many administrators to run a school. the taxpayer is being hosed all under the guise of educating our children…. repair and maintain schools and buildings rather than rebuild them all the time. set standards for teachers pay them well and cut them loose if the standards aren’t met. above all else stop paying administrators/asst.administrators principals/etc more than governors and presidents. how foolish.
Beverly Fraud
October 21st, 2012
5:33 pm
“If corruption exists in certain school systems, or within certain personnel within school systems, then those people must be held accountable.”
@Mary Elizabeth, I get the Koch brother, ALEC and all of that. But at what point does the number of “certain systems” or “certain personnel” which the point of critical mass that it becomes SYSTEMIC?
I would say we’ve reached that point…and beyond. I’m not looking forward to a foreign entity bring in foreign teachers at pennies on the dollar, or using taxpayer funds to teach that the Earth is 6000 years old either, but how else to break up a monolith that has proven over and over again, it exists only to feed itself?
yuzeyurbrane
October 21st, 2012
5:56 pm
Kyle, I think you are smart. In fact, smart enough to know you are spouting a lot of bs to promote this state charter school amendment. Your headlinej “We tried that” simply fails to mention that we quit trying about 5 years ago and in fact have gutted state spending on public education to the tune of about $4 billion. Proposed increases now are largely an attempt to repair the damage done by Jan Jones, Fran Millar and the other rightwingnuts who make education policy in the legislature. Yeh, gut public education finances and then claim that govt. can’t do anything right. Why not put on your big boy pants and just admit you want to destroy traditional public schools and replace them with some sort of 2 tiered for-profit semi-segregated educ. system?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 21st, 2012
5:56 pm
“Approximately 37% of charter schools do worse than than traditional public schools while only 17% do better.”
So that means that 63% of charter schools do at least as good, if not better than public schools.
Not a bad record at all.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 21st, 2012
5:59 pm
mike doesn’t understand that when you take students away from public schools, the cost to educate those who are left goes down as well; therefore, taxes need not go up.
No wonder he doesn’t understand economics.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 21st, 2012
6:01 pm
“Legislators cannot continue to cut 4.4 billion dollars from public education in Georgia, as it has done in the last four years, and expect it to improve.”
And yet, they haven’t, Mary Elizabeth.
They’ve cut the GROWTH in spending.
TruthBe
October 21st, 2012
6:24 pm
Public Schools have been a complete failure since the racist liberal democrats have taken them over. Less learning about Math, Science, History, English, and more learning about condoms and homosexuals. Just look at the corrupt black liberal democrat leadership in the APS with Beverly Hall for a great example of this. Affirmative action at it’s best, isn’t that so Atlanta Public Schools.
Mary Elizabeth
October 21st, 2012
7:14 pm
As I posted yesterday evening at 8:47 pm -
“FACT: The state (of Georgia) has already cut $4.4 billion from schools since 2008.”
Source: Excerpted from GAE Magazine, Volume 11, Issue 1
Hillbilly D
October 21st, 2012
8:12 pm
Whether the state has cut money or not, my school taxes just keep going up and up every year, despite declining enrollment in our county. I think they should start cutting the bloated administrative staffs and go from there.
A writer above mentioned $5 K desks. That doesn’t just go on in the education department, it goes on throughout local and state governments. Look at all the Taj Mahal courthouses that have been built in the last few years (why does a county administrator need his/her own bathroom for Heaven’s sake?). Let the school system administrators use the same desks as a teacher uses. It’s just a desk and serves the same purpose. They might not feel quite so special sitting behind it but who cares?
Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
October 21st, 2012
8:22 pm
Main reason to not give traditional schools more money – most of it goes straight to the unions, and then to the Democrats. Educating children is far down the list – does not take much money to indoctrinate, which is what they really want to do.
Mary Elizabeth
October 21st, 2012
8:54 pm
Some may be interested in reading the below.
From the Georgia Association of Educators’ (GAE) Magazine, “KNOW,” Volume 11, Issue 1, page 16:
————————————————————————–
“Is this a fight over charter schools? No way. Back in 1993, GAE helped write the charter school legislation that opened the way for public charter schools in Georgia. We believe in trying anything and everything that will help our kids and strengthen our public schools in Georgia.
To date, Georgia has more than 100 charter schools – most of these charter schools were approved by local school boards. As it stands right now, the state Board of Education has the power to overrule a local board that rejects a charter application. So why add in yet another state-created level of bureaucracy that would discard the rulings of both the local school board and the state Board of Education.
The GAE Position on Charter Schools.
We believe that charter schools can be agents for positive change. They have the ability to develop new and creative methods of teaching and learning that can be replicated in mainstream public schools. . . . Proponents of Amendment 1 say it’s needed to clarify and protect the state’s power to authorize and fund charter schools. FACT: There is already a policy in place for reviewing charter school applications by local school boards + there’s already an appeals process in place, too.
Why we’re fighting for a NO on AMENDMENT 1:
* It expands state govenment and creates an unnecessary and redundant bureaucracy.
* It siphons money out of traditional public schools and existing public charters.
* Decisions are made by a small group of political appointees – not the school boards you elect.
* It creates a second and separate state school system.
* Decisions for our local public schools should be made locally – by school board members who are voted on by local community members.
* We believe that money should not be the driving force behind education decisions.
FACT: In four years, 4,280 Georgia teachers have lost their jobs due to budget cuts – while we’ve added more than 37,400 students to classrooms.
‘Let’s use our power to make public education stronger. . . .to make our nation a better place, moving ever closer to our great and noble ideal of equal opportunity – not just for a fortunate few, but for every single child.’ -Dennis Van Roekel, NEA President “
———————————————————————————-
OldTimer
October 21st, 2012
9:06 pm
Traditional scholls declined with government regulation in the late 1960″s. It ihas never recovered. The only option in many cses was for the parents to sent their children to private schools. Later came charter schools to give students more options. Only a few public schools meet the requirements to teach a child a course that will allow them to further suceed. There are ony a few public “government” schools in Georgia that allow the student to succed. Schools are a victim of our current society–our country is in trouble if the current public school direction continues,especially in the major cities. And unfortunately, many colleges are staffed by instructors that were social promoted in the ensuing years of anti-war good feeling years. Folks they are over, now it is time to pay the piper or sink.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 21st, 2012
9:07 pm
“Wingnuts are perfectly OK with trying failed economic and foreign policies over and over again until it works”
———————
Free market capitalism is what made us the strongest country in the world.
Liberal fascists are trying as hard as they can to take advantage of the occasional downturn to implement their economy-destroying, population-impoverishing schemes.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 21st, 2012
9:08 pm
If Mary Elizabeth’s colleagues were getting the job done, this conversation would not be taking place.
td
October 21st, 2012
9:21 pm
It seems very few of the people on this blog is willing to address the real problem in education… THE PARENTS.
We have more children today excelling in public schools then ever in the history of this country and we still have the same % of children dropping out and not being successful. Our schools are doing fine for the children that want to learn or should I say for the children that have parents that place the education of them as their number 1 priority. Students are succeeding not only in the wealthy parts of town but there are successes also in the poorest sections of town.
Until we the caring parents decide we are fed up with the non caring parents and are willing to take actions then it does not matter how much money we spend, change the curriculum or even the environment (charter schools) education is not going to get substantially better overall. Children of parents that care are going to continue to succeed no matter what environment they are in and the children of parents that do not care are going to continue to fail.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 21st, 2012
9:26 pm
We’ve been subsidizing failure (failed families, failed parents, failed schools) for too long. Single-parent families are ruining this nation with their outsized demands for subsidized housing, food, transportation, ad nauseum, and their propensity for spawning criminal youngsters who perpetuate the cycle.
bluecoat
October 21st, 2012
10:18 pm
Despite having charter schools for 17 years, students in Georgia are not performing as well as their counterparts in Washington in a number of areas, a review of national statistics shows.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 21st, 2012
11:00 pm
““FACT: The state (of Georgia) has already cut $4.4 billion from schools since 2008.” ”
mary Elizabeth, you’re a flaming liberal. Liberals ALWAYS claim things are being “cut” when it is only INCREASES in spending being cut.
It’s the only way you can win arguments – change the wording to suit your case, even when that wording is false.
Just like “access” to contraceptive or abortions.
Your playbook is old and stale. And we’ve been on to it for years now.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 21st, 2012
11:05 pm
“FACT: In four years, 4,280 Georgia teachers have lost their jobs due to budget cuts – while we’ve added more than 37,400 students to classrooms.”
If you’re such an advocate for local control, Mary Elizabeth, why aren’t you an advocate for local funding? Those teachers lost their jobs because the local school boards you love so much failed in their duty to raise millage rates appropriately to cover their revenue losses. Stop blaming the state for a LOCAL problem.
You may try to argue about local control out of both sides of your mouth, but it fails the smell test every time.
crankee-yankee
October 21st, 2012
11:17 pm
Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
October 21st, 2012
8:22 pm
What union? Please cite names and numbers so I can go get my share of what the union is taking.
Tiberius – pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 21st, 2012
11:05 pm
Get your facts straight. Millage rate increases are capped by the state. Or did you know that and lie by omission?
Mary Elizabeth
October 21st, 2012
11:35 pm
Tiberius, your last two posts, addressed to me, are either so far out of line, or erroneous in your assumptions, that your comments are not worthy of a response.
OldTimer
October 22nd, 2012
12:03 am
td
Public housing overall, in cities does not really promote education for the children. Many of these kids don’t really have parents as in “whio is your daddy”. The enviroment doesn’t promote overall education. Even in the Burbs many parents are too busy trying to make a living to help their children. Discipline is gone along with the paddle.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
12:09 am
“Get your facts straight. Millage rate increases are capped by the state. Or did you know that and lie by omission?”
Sorry, crankee-yankee, but they are not. Any millage increase that goes above the state “limit” can simply be brought to the voters for approval.
Epic fail.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
12:11 am
“Tiberius, your last two posts, addressed to me, are either so far out of line, or erroneous in your assumptions, that your comments are not worthy of a response.”
Mary Elizabeth-speak for “I’ve been outed and I have no defense left.”
Mary Elizabeth
October 22nd, 2012
12:38 am
“Mary Elizabeth-speak for ‘I’ve been outed and I have no defense left.’ ”
====================================
No, you are wrong, Tiberius. When you state remarks such as that I am a “flaming liberal,” you simply allow your posts to degenerate into name-calling and stereotypical name-calling at that, instead of making the effort to put forth a cogent argument. Moreover, when you state that liberals ALWAYS do anything, you show that you are not being fine-tuned in your thinking to use such a sweeping adverb instead of using one that is more qualified in connotation, such as “often” or “frequently” or perhaps even “sometimes.”
And, when you assume that I am “such an advocate for local control,” you are simply making an erroneous assumption based on nothing but your own imaginings.
I did not respond to your posts simply because your posts lacked quality of thought, and therefore, did not deserve a response from me.
Morning Reads For Monday October 22, 2012 — Peach Pundit
October 22nd, 2012
7:01 am
[...] by Buzz Brockway · 0 comments TweetGeorgia Items – The Atlanta region has seen a spike in public corruption cases. – The Boy Scout’s “perversion files” scandal impacts Georgia. – A documentary looks at the Tri-State Crematory scandal. – The “Capitol Steps” are coming to Athens for a pre-election performance. – Walter Jones: Governor Putting Stamp On Higher Education. – Five counts dropped against Clayton’s Victor Hill – Erick Erickson says vote “Yes” on the charter school amendment. – Wingfield: Spend more money on traditional schools? We tried that. [...]
Rightwing Troll
October 22nd, 2012
7:22 am
““Wingnuts are perfectly OK with trying failed economic and foreign policies over and over again until it works”
———————
Free market capitalism is what made us the strongest country in the world.
Liberal fascists are trying as hard as they can to take advantage of the occasional downturn to implement their economy-destroying, population-impoverishing schemes.”
Is that what trying the same failed foreign and economic policies over and over again called???
Free market capitalism?
Proof positive we need to do something about public education right there… LBB don’t even know what “free market” capitalism is, nor does he realize that such a system doesn’t truly exist anywhere.
curious
October 22nd, 2012
8:36 am
Public funding for existing schools and, now, for charter schools seems like more money to me.
Let’s improve the existing system rather than add another system on top of what’s in place.
Otherwise, eliminate the existing system and go all charter.
Numbers-R-US
October 22nd, 2012
8:47 am
K-12 per student spending by the state of Georgia has dropped by 14.8% from FY2008 to FY2013.
iggy
October 22nd, 2012
8:54 am
“* It siphons money out of traditional public schools and existing public charters.”
And thats a bad thing?
iggy
October 22nd, 2012
8:56 am
The problem with public schools is many “parents” came from them and are more stupid than their offspring.
alex
October 22nd, 2012
9:13 am
Woodward Academy, $22,000 a year…16 year old car,10 year old van,shop at Costco for clothes and food,flip top phone(no I phone), WA:worth every dime!
Numbers-R-US
October 22nd, 2012
9:48 am
worth every dime!
And you deserve the option of paying the full cost of private school if that is what you want. Meanwhile public school is a shared responsibility.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
9:54 am
“Meanwhile public school is a shared responsibility.”
And will remain so, despite the fear-mongering of the left and detractors of this amendment.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 22nd, 2012
9:56 am
This is what we libruls call a master stroke:
Obama immigration stance locks in Hispanic suppo
A victim of the brutal economy in this swing state, the 30-year-old tax preparer has been out of work for months. She’s a foe of abortion and gay marriage, and was naturally drawn to the Republican ticket. But Alvisar has switched her support to President Barack Obama because of his support for legislation known as the DREAM Act.
salon.com
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 22nd, 2012
9:56 am
All this is about is so Republicans can get control of the agenda in the schools.
Then its Adam and Even and Sunday School for everyone.
Really Really sad.
No wonder this state votes Republican.
The dumber the state the redder it is.
Ekim56
October 22nd, 2012
10:04 am
The amendment passes, no matter whatever we say here. It is worded on the ballot in such a way that there’s no chance it goes down.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 22nd, 2012
10:15 am
It is worded on the ballot in such a way that there’s no chance it goes down
Both sides play that game. We just have to put with it until the Cons run GA into the ground and this state becomes last in everything. Then people might start voting progressive again.
Well, maybe not….
DawgDad
October 22nd, 2012
10:25 am
“Opponents of the charter-school amendment on next month’s ballot offer a simple alternative idea: Spend more money.
That’s about all the educational establishment can conjure as a means of improving Georgia’s below-average results.”
Kyle, that is a false premise. Even if the “educational establishment” wants us to spend more money on schools that does not justify the establishment of State-sponsored charter schools as a good or even viable alternative. Period.
Numbers-R-US
October 22nd, 2012
10:31 am
Vote no to cost shared responsibility for private for-profit schools with no local oversight.
DawgDad
October 22nd, 2012
10:34 am
“until the Cons run GA into the ground and this state becomes last in everything”
Compare the performance of the schools in Democrat/progressive controlled districts vs. Cherokee County. Compare how elections are run. Compare how County and Local services are provided. Compare anything you want run by “Cons” out here with the Democrat/progressive controlled alternative.
Numbers-R-US
October 22nd, 2012
10:37 am
Georgia is still number one is failed banks after the Bush Great Recession. How’s that for a comparison.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 22nd, 2012
10:42 am
“until the Cons run GA into the ground and this state becomes last in everything”
We are headed there now. Heck look at he Electoral map.
The states Obama is winning. Higher education levels and higher percentages of college graduates.
The states Romney is winning. Lower education levels and lower percentages of college graduates.
Its a race to the bottom in those states.
Charter Schools where they can teach kids about Noah’s Ark instead of Science is just another mile marker in that race.
And among the red states racing to the bottom. Georgia is among the leaders.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
10:56 am
The states Obama is winning. Higher debts and deficits and greater fiscal mismanagement.
The states Romney is winning. More common sense in their voters.
Fixed your typos, Cheesy.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
10:58 am
“Compare how elections are run. Compare how County and Local services are provided. Compare anything you want run by “Cons” out here with the Democrat/progressive controlled alternative.”
OK. Forsyth County has ALL those Democrat counties beat on pretty much every metric you want to name, DawgDad.
Most Republican county in the state and in the top 5 in the country.
Got anything else?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
11:15 am
Oh, and fresh sheets upstairs.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 22nd, 2012
11:26 am
The states Romney is winning. More common sense in their voters.
Common Sense.
Is that what we call ignorance these days ?
Future Governor
October 22nd, 2012
11:28 am
I continue to read about how the cost of education has gone up over the years. No kidding….Gee hasn’t everything else gone up over the last few years as well, i.e., electricity, gasoline, food, health care, etc. What is wrong with your people, did you not know that teachers do not work for free? Let’s think about this for a moment, Gwinnett County alone has approximately 145,000 students it is responsible for. The schools that house those students need water, electricity, gas for buses (as well as buses for transport), many teachers, staff, books, food…I could go on, but I think you get the picture. All of the aforementioned is much more expensive that it was 10 years ago. Health insurance for teachers has doubled within the last five years alone. If teachers pay continues to be cut and health insurance costs continue to increase, more and more teachers will leave the profession and others will avoid the occupation all together. Why would anyone pay thousands and thousands of dollars to get a four-year degree in education only to be treated with such disdain as I have seen in the media and by our politicians? God bless our teachers.
Let me remind you that it is cheaper to educate a child than to house one in prison.
Darwin
October 22nd, 2012
2:47 pm
In the Miami Herald online edition today. “For-profit education companies are becoming serious players in lobbying the Florida Legislature. Jon Hage, right, CEO of Charter Schools USA, has doled thousands in campaign contributions. – ”
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/#storylink=cpy
Morning Reads For Monday October 22, 2012
October 22nd, 2012
5:11 pm
[...] Georgia Items – AJC: Atlanta region sees spike in public corruption cases. – The Boy Scout’s “perversion files” scandal impacts Georgia. – A documentary looks at the Tri-State Crematory scandal. – The “Capitol Steps” are coming to Athens for a pre-election performance. – Walter Jones: Governor Putting Stamp On Higher Education. – Five counts dropped against Clayton’s Victor Hill – Erick Erickson says vote “Yes” on the charter school amendment. – Wingfield: Spend more money on traditional schools? We tried that. [...]
Charter school parents explain why we need Amendment One | Kyle Wingfield
October 25th, 2012
5:01 am
[...] Spend more money on traditional schools? We tried that [...]
The LaFayette Underground » Daily Update: October 25, 2012 » News Beneath the News in LaFayette, Georgia
October 25th, 2012
5:01 am
[...] an argument for trying something different, from the fiscal perspective: “we already know what we get when we pour more and more money [...]