Spend more money on traditional schools? We tried that
Opponents of the charter-school amendment on next month’s ballot offer a simple alternative idea: Spend more money.
That’s about all the educational establishment can conjure as a means of improving Georgia’s below-average results. State schools superintendent John Barge got to the point quickly when he came out against the amendment back in August.
Barge estimated the state would spend an extra $430 million on new charter schools over a five-year period. He said the state shouldn’t spend that money until existing schools are fully staffed with fully paid teachers for full school years – the lack of which he attributed to state budget cuts averaging almost $1.2 billion in recent years.
So, there you have it, fiscal conservatives wary of the amendment. Barge and his fellow travelers don’t want to spend another $430 million over the next five years. They want to spend an additional $6 billion during those years – about 14 times as much.
Whereas charter schools would at least offer a chance to give students and parents different and better options, that $6 billion would go into the same model we’ve had for years. As it happens, we already know what we get when we pour more and more money into that system: Student learning doesn’t grow nearly as quickly as the funding does.
That’s because, complaints about spending notwithstanding, educational spending in Georgia has gone up, up, up over the longer term. But test scores have barely budged by comparison.
Consider a common national benchmark for standardized testing: the National Assessment of Educational Progress, or NAEP. Because the annual data available for budget numbers and state NAEP scores don’t always overlap, I’m making the most long-term comparison I can: 2002 to 2011.
Between 2002 and 2011, state funding per pupil rose by 10 percent.
Reading scores for Georgia fourth-graders and eighth-graders during those years rose by just 2.8 percent and 1.6 percent, respectively.
Math scores for Georgia fourth-graders rose by 3.5 percent, eighth-graders by 3 percent. (The math scores actually come from 2003, but per-pupil funding then was within $2 of its level in 2002, so it’s a very similar comparison.)
As I reported in a recent column, state-chartered schools – the ones that stand to grow if the amendment passes — already outperform their local, traditional counterparts by about 12 percent.
Perhaps the extra money didn’t yield commensurate results because it didn’t always go into classrooms, according to the Friedman Foundation for Educational Choice.
In a report to be released this week, the foundation found the number of teachers in Georgia grew about twice as fast as the number of students over the past two decades. But so did the number of non-instructional staff (e.g., administrators and secretaries).
Had the growth in non-instructional staff merely kept pace with that of students, Georgia would have employed about 23,000 fewer people in 2008, the most recent year the foundation studied. Using a conservative estimate of $40,000 per year for each of them, these extra workers cost Georgia about $925 million that year.
And how much do Barge & Co. think Georgia schools need each year? Right: $1.2 billion. That $925 million alone would cover three-quarters of the tab.
But if our educational dollars aren’t well-spent now, why would we give them more? And why wouldn’t we embrace an amendment that offers a better way?
– By Kyle Wingfield
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243 comments Add your comment
Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
October 21st, 2012
8:22 pm
Main reason to not give traditional schools more money – most of it goes straight to the unions, and then to the Democrats. Educating children is far down the list – does not take much money to indoctrinate, which is what they really want to do.
Mary Elizabeth
October 21st, 2012
8:54 pm
Some may be interested in reading the below.
From the Georgia Association of Educators’ (GAE) Magazine, “KNOW,” Volume 11, Issue 1, page 16:
————————————————————————–
“Is this a fight over charter schools? No way. Back in 1993, GAE helped write the charter school legislation that opened the way for public charter schools in Georgia. We believe in trying anything and everything that will help our kids and strengthen our public schools in Georgia.
To date, Georgia has more than 100 charter schools – most of these charter schools were approved by local school boards. As it stands right now, the state Board of Education has the power to overrule a local board that rejects a charter application. So why add in yet another state-created level of bureaucracy that would discard the rulings of both the local school board and the state Board of Education.
The GAE Position on Charter Schools.
We believe that charter schools can be agents for positive change. They have the ability to develop new and creative methods of teaching and learning that can be replicated in mainstream public schools. . . . Proponents of Amendment 1 say it’s needed to clarify and protect the state’s power to authorize and fund charter schools. FACT: There is already a policy in place for reviewing charter school applications by local school boards + there’s already an appeals process in place, too.
Why we’re fighting for a NO on AMENDMENT 1:
* It expands state govenment and creates an unnecessary and redundant bureaucracy.
* It siphons money out of traditional public schools and existing public charters.
* Decisions are made by a small group of political appointees – not the school boards you elect.
* It creates a second and separate state school system.
* Decisions for our local public schools should be made locally – by school board members who are voted on by local community members.
* We believe that money should not be the driving force behind education decisions.
FACT: In four years, 4,280 Georgia teachers have lost their jobs due to budget cuts – while we’ve added more than 37,400 students to classrooms.
‘Let’s use our power to make public education stronger. . . .to make our nation a better place, moving ever closer to our great and noble ideal of equal opportunity – not just for a fortunate few, but for every single child.’ -Dennis Van Roekel, NEA President “
———————————————————————————-
OldTimer
October 21st, 2012
9:06 pm
Traditional scholls declined with government regulation in the late 1960″s. It ihas never recovered. The only option in many cses was for the parents to sent their children to private schools. Later came charter schools to give students more options. Only a few public schools meet the requirements to teach a child a course that will allow them to further suceed. There are ony a few public “government” schools in Georgia that allow the student to succed. Schools are a victim of our current society–our country is in trouble if the current public school direction continues,especially in the major cities. And unfortunately, many colleges are staffed by instructors that were social promoted in the ensuing years of anti-war good feeling years. Folks they are over, now it is time to pay the piper or sink.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 21st, 2012
9:07 pm
“Wingnuts are perfectly OK with trying failed economic and foreign policies over and over again until it works”
———————
Free market capitalism is what made us the strongest country in the world.
Liberal fascists are trying as hard as they can to take advantage of the occasional downturn to implement their economy-destroying, population-impoverishing schemes.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 21st, 2012
9:08 pm
If Mary Elizabeth’s colleagues were getting the job done, this conversation would not be taking place.
td
October 21st, 2012
9:21 pm
It seems very few of the people on this blog is willing to address the real problem in education… THE PARENTS.
We have more children today excelling in public schools then ever in the history of this country and we still have the same % of children dropping out and not being successful. Our schools are doing fine for the children that want to learn or should I say for the children that have parents that place the education of them as their number 1 priority. Students are succeeding not only in the wealthy parts of town but there are successes also in the poorest sections of town.
Until we the caring parents decide we are fed up with the non caring parents and are willing to take actions then it does not matter how much money we spend, change the curriculum or even the environment (charter schools) education is not going to get substantially better overall. Children of parents that care are going to continue to succeed no matter what environment they are in and the children of parents that do not care are going to continue to fail.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 21st, 2012
9:26 pm
We’ve been subsidizing failure (failed families, failed parents, failed schools) for too long. Single-parent families are ruining this nation with their outsized demands for subsidized housing, food, transportation, ad nauseum, and their propensity for spawning criminal youngsters who perpetuate the cycle.
bluecoat
October 21st, 2012
10:18 pm
Despite having charter schools for 17 years, students in Georgia are not performing as well as their counterparts in Washington in a number of areas, a review of national statistics shows.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 21st, 2012
11:00 pm
““FACT: The state (of Georgia) has already cut $4.4 billion from schools since 2008.” ”
mary Elizabeth, you’re a flaming liberal. Liberals ALWAYS claim things are being “cut” when it is only INCREASES in spending being cut.
It’s the only way you can win arguments – change the wording to suit your case, even when that wording is false.
Just like “access” to contraceptive or abortions.
Your playbook is old and stale. And we’ve been on to it for years now.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 21st, 2012
11:05 pm
“FACT: In four years, 4,280 Georgia teachers have lost their jobs due to budget cuts – while we’ve added more than 37,400 students to classrooms.”
If you’re such an advocate for local control, Mary Elizabeth, why aren’t you an advocate for local funding? Those teachers lost their jobs because the local school boards you love so much failed in their duty to raise millage rates appropriately to cover their revenue losses. Stop blaming the state for a LOCAL problem.
You may try to argue about local control out of both sides of your mouth, but it fails the smell test every time.
crankee-yankee
October 21st, 2012
11:17 pm
Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
October 21st, 2012
8:22 pm
What union? Please cite names and numbers so I can go get my share of what the union is taking.
Tiberius – pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 21st, 2012
11:05 pm
Get your facts straight. Millage rate increases are capped by the state. Or did you know that and lie by omission?
Mary Elizabeth
October 21st, 2012
11:35 pm
Tiberius, your last two posts, addressed to me, are either so far out of line, or erroneous in your assumptions, that your comments are not worthy of a response.
OldTimer
October 22nd, 2012
12:03 am
td
Public housing overall, in cities does not really promote education for the children. Many of these kids don’t really have parents as in “whio is your daddy”. The enviroment doesn’t promote overall education. Even in the Burbs many parents are too busy trying to make a living to help their children. Discipline is gone along with the paddle.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
12:09 am
“Get your facts straight. Millage rate increases are capped by the state. Or did you know that and lie by omission?”
Sorry, crankee-yankee, but they are not. Any millage increase that goes above the state “limit” can simply be brought to the voters for approval.
Epic fail.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
12:11 am
“Tiberius, your last two posts, addressed to me, are either so far out of line, or erroneous in your assumptions, that your comments are not worthy of a response.”
Mary Elizabeth-speak for “I’ve been outed and I have no defense left.”
Mary Elizabeth
October 22nd, 2012
12:38 am
“Mary Elizabeth-speak for ‘I’ve been outed and I have no defense left.’ ”
====================================
No, you are wrong, Tiberius. When you state remarks such as that I am a “flaming liberal,” you simply allow your posts to degenerate into name-calling and stereotypical name-calling at that, instead of making the effort to put forth a cogent argument. Moreover, when you state that liberals ALWAYS do anything, you show that you are not being fine-tuned in your thinking to use such a sweeping adverb instead of using one that is more qualified in connotation, such as “often” or “frequently” or perhaps even “sometimes.”
And, when you assume that I am “such an advocate for local control,” you are simply making an erroneous assumption based on nothing but your own imaginings.
I did not respond to your posts simply because your posts lacked quality of thought, and therefore, did not deserve a response from me.
Morning Reads For Monday October 22, 2012 — Peach Pundit
October 22nd, 2012
7:01 am
[...] by Buzz Brockway · 0 comments TweetGeorgia Items – The Atlanta region has seen a spike in public corruption cases. – The Boy Scout’s “perversion files” scandal impacts Georgia. – A documentary looks at the Tri-State Crematory scandal. – The “Capitol Steps” are coming to Athens for a pre-election performance. – Walter Jones: Governor Putting Stamp On Higher Education. – Five counts dropped against Clayton’s Victor Hill – Erick Erickson says vote “Yes” on the charter school amendment. – Wingfield: Spend more money on traditional schools? We tried that. [...]
Rightwing Troll
October 22nd, 2012
7:22 am
““Wingnuts are perfectly OK with trying failed economic and foreign policies over and over again until it works”
———————
Free market capitalism is what made us the strongest country in the world.
Liberal fascists are trying as hard as they can to take advantage of the occasional downturn to implement their economy-destroying, population-impoverishing schemes.”
Is that what trying the same failed foreign and economic policies over and over again called???
Free market capitalism?
Proof positive we need to do something about public education right there… LBB don’t even know what “free market” capitalism is, nor does he realize that such a system doesn’t truly exist anywhere.
curious
October 22nd, 2012
8:36 am
Public funding for existing schools and, now, for charter schools seems like more money to me.
Let’s improve the existing system rather than add another system on top of what’s in place.
Otherwise, eliminate the existing system and go all charter.
Numbers-R-US
October 22nd, 2012
8:47 am
K-12 per student spending by the state of Georgia has dropped by 14.8% from FY2008 to FY2013.
iggy
October 22nd, 2012
8:54 am
“* It siphons money out of traditional public schools and existing public charters.”
And thats a bad thing?
iggy
October 22nd, 2012
8:56 am
The problem with public schools is many “parents” came from them and are more stupid than their offspring.
alex
October 22nd, 2012
9:13 am
Woodward Academy, $22,000 a year…16 year old car,10 year old van,shop at Costco for clothes and food,flip top phone(no I phone), WA:worth every dime!
Numbers-R-US
October 22nd, 2012
9:48 am
worth every dime!
And you deserve the option of paying the full cost of private school if that is what you want. Meanwhile public school is a shared responsibility.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
9:54 am
“Meanwhile public school is a shared responsibility.”
And will remain so, despite the fear-mongering of the left and detractors of this amendment.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 22nd, 2012
9:56 am
This is what we libruls call a master stroke:
Obama immigration stance locks in Hispanic suppo
A victim of the brutal economy in this swing state, the 30-year-old tax preparer has been out of work for months. She’s a foe of abortion and gay marriage, and was naturally drawn to the Republican ticket. But Alvisar has switched her support to President Barack Obama because of his support for legislation known as the DREAM Act.
salon.com
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 22nd, 2012
9:56 am
All this is about is so Republicans can get control of the agenda in the schools.
Then its Adam and Even and Sunday School for everyone.
Really Really sad.
No wonder this state votes Republican.
The dumber the state the redder it is.
Ekim56
October 22nd, 2012
10:04 am
The amendment passes, no matter whatever we say here. It is worded on the ballot in such a way that there’s no chance it goes down.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 22nd, 2012
10:15 am
It is worded on the ballot in such a way that there’s no chance it goes down
Both sides play that game. We just have to put with it until the Cons run GA into the ground and this state becomes last in everything. Then people might start voting progressive again.
Well, maybe not….
DawgDad
October 22nd, 2012
10:25 am
“Opponents of the charter-school amendment on next month’s ballot offer a simple alternative idea: Spend more money.
That’s about all the educational establishment can conjure as a means of improving Georgia’s below-average results.”
Kyle, that is a false premise. Even if the “educational establishment” wants us to spend more money on schools that does not justify the establishment of State-sponsored charter schools as a good or even viable alternative. Period.
Numbers-R-US
October 22nd, 2012
10:31 am
Vote no to cost shared responsibility for private for-profit schools with no local oversight.
DawgDad
October 22nd, 2012
10:34 am
“until the Cons run GA into the ground and this state becomes last in everything”
Compare the performance of the schools in Democrat/progressive controlled districts vs. Cherokee County. Compare how elections are run. Compare how County and Local services are provided. Compare anything you want run by “Cons” out here with the Democrat/progressive controlled alternative.
Numbers-R-US
October 22nd, 2012
10:37 am
Georgia is still number one is failed banks after the Bush Great Recession. How’s that for a comparison.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 22nd, 2012
10:42 am
“until the Cons run GA into the ground and this state becomes last in everything”
We are headed there now. Heck look at he Electoral map.
The states Obama is winning. Higher education levels and higher percentages of college graduates.
The states Romney is winning. Lower education levels and lower percentages of college graduates.
Its a race to the bottom in those states.
Charter Schools where they can teach kids about Noah’s Ark instead of Science is just another mile marker in that race.
And among the red states racing to the bottom. Georgia is among the leaders.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
10:56 am
The states Obama is winning. Higher debts and deficits and greater fiscal mismanagement.
The states Romney is winning. More common sense in their voters.
Fixed your typos, Cheesy.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
10:58 am
“Compare how elections are run. Compare how County and Local services are provided. Compare anything you want run by “Cons” out here with the Democrat/progressive controlled alternative.”
OK. Forsyth County has ALL those Democrat counties beat on pretty much every metric you want to name, DawgDad.
Most Republican county in the state and in the top 5 in the country.
Got anything else?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 22nd, 2012
11:15 am
Oh, and fresh sheets upstairs.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 22nd, 2012
11:26 am
The states Romney is winning. More common sense in their voters.
Common Sense.
Is that what we call ignorance these days ?
Future Governor
October 22nd, 2012
11:28 am
I continue to read about how the cost of education has gone up over the years. No kidding….Gee hasn’t everything else gone up over the last few years as well, i.e., electricity, gasoline, food, health care, etc. What is wrong with your people, did you not know that teachers do not work for free? Let’s think about this for a moment, Gwinnett County alone has approximately 145,000 students it is responsible for. The schools that house those students need water, electricity, gas for buses (as well as buses for transport), many teachers, staff, books, food…I could go on, but I think you get the picture. All of the aforementioned is much more expensive that it was 10 years ago. Health insurance for teachers has doubled within the last five years alone. If teachers pay continues to be cut and health insurance costs continue to increase, more and more teachers will leave the profession and others will avoid the occupation all together. Why would anyone pay thousands and thousands of dollars to get a four-year degree in education only to be treated with such disdain as I have seen in the media and by our politicians? God bless our teachers.
Let me remind you that it is cheaper to educate a child than to house one in prison.
Darwin
October 22nd, 2012
2:47 pm
In the Miami Herald online edition today. “For-profit education companies are becoming serious players in lobbying the Florida Legislature. Jon Hage, right, CEO of Charter Schools USA, has doled thousands in campaign contributions. – ”
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/#storylink=cpy
Morning Reads For Monday October 22, 2012
October 22nd, 2012
5:11 pm
[...] Georgia Items – AJC: Atlanta region sees spike in public corruption cases. – The Boy Scout’s “perversion files” scandal impacts Georgia. – A documentary looks at the Tri-State Crematory scandal. – The “Capitol Steps” are coming to Athens for a pre-election performance. – Walter Jones: Governor Putting Stamp On Higher Education. – Five counts dropped against Clayton’s Victor Hill – Erick Erickson says vote “Yes” on the charter school amendment. – Wingfield: Spend more money on traditional schools? We tried that. [...]
Charter school parents explain why we need Amendment One | Kyle Wingfield
October 25th, 2012
5:01 am
[...] Spend more money on traditional schools? We tried that [...]
The LaFayette Underground » Daily Update: October 25, 2012 » News Beneath the News in LaFayette, Georgia
October 25th, 2012
5:01 am
[...] an argument for trying something different, from the fiscal perspective: “we already know what we get when we pour more and more money [...]