Spend more money on traditional schools? We tried that
Opponents of the charter-school amendment on next month’s ballot offer a simple alternative idea: Spend more money.
That’s about all the educational establishment can conjure as a means of improving Georgia’s below-average results. State schools superintendent John Barge got to the point quickly when he came out against the amendment back in August.
Barge estimated the state would spend an extra $430 million on new charter schools over a five-year period. He said the state shouldn’t spend that money until existing schools are fully staffed with fully paid teachers for full school years – the lack of which he attributed to state budget cuts averaging almost $1.2 billion in recent years.
So, there you have it, fiscal conservatives wary of the amendment. Barge and his fellow travelers don’t want to spend another $430 million over the next five years. They want to spend an additional $6 billion during those years – about 14 times as much.
Whereas charter schools would at least offer a chance to give students and parents different and better options, that $6 billion would go into the same model we’ve had for years. As it happens, we already know what we get when we pour more and more money into that system: Student learning doesn’t grow nearly as quickly as the funding does.
That’s because, complaints about spending notwithstanding, educational spending in Georgia has gone up, up, up over the longer term. But test scores have barely budged by comparison.
Consider a common national benchmark for standardized testing: the National Assessment of Educational Progress, or NAEP. Because the annual data available for budget numbers and state NAEP scores don’t always overlap, I’m making the most long-term comparison I can: 2002 to 2011.
Between 2002 and 2011, state funding per pupil rose by 10 percent.
Reading scores for Georgia fourth-graders and eighth-graders during those years rose by just 2.8 percent and 1.6 percent, respectively.
Math scores for Georgia fourth-graders rose by 3.5 percent, eighth-graders by 3 percent. (The math scores actually come from 2003, but per-pupil funding then was within $2 of its level in 2002, so it’s a very similar comparison.)
As I reported in a recent column, state-chartered schools – the ones that stand to grow if the amendment passes — already outperform their local, traditional counterparts by about 12 percent.
Perhaps the extra money didn’t yield commensurate results because it didn’t always go into classrooms, according to the Friedman Foundation for Educational Choice.
In a report to be released this week, the foundation found the number of teachers in Georgia grew about twice as fast as the number of students over the past two decades. But so did the number of non-instructional staff (e.g., administrators and secretaries).
Had the growth in non-instructional staff merely kept pace with that of students, Georgia would have employed about 23,000 fewer people in 2008, the most recent year the foundation studied. Using a conservative estimate of $40,000 per year for each of them, these extra workers cost Georgia about $925 million that year.
And how much do Barge & Co. think Georgia schools need each year? Right: $1.2 billion. That $925 million alone would cover three-quarters of the tab.
But if our educational dollars aren’t well-spent now, why would we give them more? And why wouldn’t we embrace an amendment that offers a better way?
– By Kyle Wingfield
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243 comments Add your comment
adam smith's invisible hand
October 20th, 2012
3:19 pm
So, there’s some trick that charter schools know that allows them to educate children, but, rather than implement this special methodology everywhere, we’re just going to keep it and only use it in charter schools. You do know this makes no sense whatsoever.
Dusty
October 20th, 2012
4:49 pm
Ideas for school improvement …I’m trying
How about frugality??? Naw, nobody knows what that means these days.
How about sponsors with restrictions/rules? Don’t institutions of higher learning have alumni giving, buildings built with their name on them,and other such goodies. The local grocery could sponsor PiddlyDunk school. (Sponsers should not serve on school boards.)What’s the ratio of sucessful businesses & public schools?
No parking lots except for teachers & officials.
New disciplinary rules with work projects for punishment.
Limited number of days that substitutes can be used by a teacher.
Metal seats on school buses. Inspires walking. Less replacements.
No football and no concussions Have competetive shop/electronic classes (who can fix a broken computer the fastest)
Allow military training electives in upper grades. .
Parents who miss teacher conferences without a good excuse or no excuse should have their names listed in school newsletters.
Art and music taught by local volunteers who have some training.
OK…that’s all. You can throw all of them out.
Dusty
October 20th, 2012
5:17 pm
By the way, I just read where some posters were fuming about Georgia governors making cuts in their budgets including education.
Is it possible that someone does not know that states are in debt? That our country is in debt by the trillions?
I commend any public official who is trying to balance a budget and cut expenses and that includes the governor of Georgia.
cc
October 20th, 2012
5:45 pm
Dusty, I have yet to find anything that you have posted with which I disagreed. Your above posts are no exception. Great ideas!
cc
October 20th, 2012
5:47 pm
I voted YES on the Charter School Amendment.
getalife
October 20th, 2012
6:02 pm
The gop attack on education is working.
They want uneducated and gullible voters.
cc
October 20th, 2012
6:10 pm
“They want uneducated and gullible voters.”
You are the very best example available of an “uneducated and gullible” voter, getalife, and you were a product of the dimocrat “attack on education”.
MarkV
October 20th, 2012
6:26 pm
Dusty @4:49 pm
Dusty,
Some of what you have suggested might be good ideas, but those are, in my opinion, fairly peripheral issues. I think most people realize that one of the main issues,and perhaps the most important one, is the quality of teachers. Here is why I wrote that I believed the teacher unions were mcuh to blame, because of their opposition to firing of bad teachers. On the other hand, I understand very well that they are opposed to firings based on arbitrary criteria, which might sound good on paper but at closer inspection are not fair.
The other main issue, I believe, is the role of the parents – another difficult problem to solve.
Li'l Aynie
October 20th, 2012
6:35 pm
Do you notice that every discussion of education turns immediately to money and organization, instead of what teachers are teaching, and what students are learning.
Turns out the money could be flushed down the toilet for all the good it does, and the organization (public vs. charter, federal vs. local, state vs. local) is another case of arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Apple, the most valuable American corporation has explained why Apple products cannot and will not be manufactured in the US. There simply are not American engineers to manage manufacturing processes. China is graduating hundreds of thousands of engineers yearly; some of them from US schools like MIT, Caltech, and Georgia Tech. Science and engineering are not popular majors for most American college students! … all that math!
Could we focus on the fundamentals of education instead of the politics of education?
td
October 20th, 2012
6:45 pm
MarkV
October 20th, 2012
6:26 pm
“The other main issue, I believe, is the role of the parents – another difficult problem to solve.”
The role of parents or the attitude of parents is the whole answer. When you have a parents that makes the education of their children the number 1 priority in the house then you have children that succeed no matter what school they are placed in. When parents make education a priority but not the top priority then children may or may not succeed (depending on the child). When parents do not care then the children will fail 95% of the time.
Don't Tread
October 20th, 2012
7:08 pm
“But if our educational dollars aren’t well-spent now, why would we give them more? And why wouldn’t we embrace an amendment that offers a better way?”
Exactly why I voted for it.
MarkV
October 20th, 2012
7:16 pm
td @ 6:45 pm
If we are talking about the quality of schools, then the main issue, in my view, is the quality of the teachers, and how to achieve/improve it. I realize that there are many other issues, some a function of funding, The teacher quality problem, however, is closely related to the difficult and complex problem of fair evaluation.
If we are talking about the quality of education overall, then undoubtedly the home environment and parents’ role are paramount.
td
October 20th, 2012
7:40 pm
MarkV
October 20th, 2012
7:16 pm
I will submit to you that you can take very average teachers and raise the class size to 50 to 1 at Walton HS in Cobb county or Milton HS in Fulton county and over a 4 year period you would not see a substantial in SAT scores.
There are probably a few bad teachers in the system but usually do not stay for long and they all teach the same curriculum. The students that have parents at home that have decided to put in the hours with the children can overcome any weakness of a teacher in the classroom and their children will succeed. I do not care if it is the best school or the worst school in the state.
John L Lightner
October 20th, 2012
7:48 pm
I do not see that charter schools perform any better than regular schools. What I do see is the distinct possibility that state approved charter school will establish student eligibility requirements that will, in effect, be discriminatory. Nothing to stop them from restricting enrollment to “special groups”.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 20th, 2012
8:46 pm
Well, John, so far charter schools seem to be targeted at black kids.
I’m sure you have a huge problem with that.
Mary Elizabeth
October 20th, 2012
8:47 pm
“FACT: The public needs to realize that almost 60% of the state commission charter schools (not charter schools approved locally) had contracts with EMOs (for-profit education management organizations) vs. only 12% of all other startup charter schools in Georgia, which means a portion of the $86 million in state funds these schools receive go to out-of-state companies.”
“FACT: The state (of Georgia) has already cut $4.4 billion from schools since 2008.”
“What it (Amendment 1) means to our public schools. Shorter school calendars. Ballooning class sizes. Lost jobs. More furlough days. Fewer programs and resources for Georgia students. Amendment 1 siphons money and resources from already underfunded traditional public schools and existing public charter schools. That money then goes into the coffers of state commission-approved charter schools often run by out-of-state, for-profit charter school management companies.”
“Did you KNOW? According to the Georgia Supreme Court, the state clearly overstepped when it created the state commission to approve charter schools. That commission approved charter school applications until the Georgia Supreme Court ruled that UNCONSTITUTIONAL this past year. The power to authorize charter schools belongs (exclusively ) to local school boards as stated in our Constitution.”
“FACT: There is already a policy in place for reviewing charter school applications by local school boards + there’s already an appeals process in place, too.”
“Our students – the future of our state – deserve more than Amendment 1 can promise. While the preamble that appears above the amendment language on the ballot promises to improve student achievement and parental involvement, we know that it might do that – but only for the very few. ALL children across Georgia deserve the equal opportunity to learn in engaging, innovative, creative, and safe classrooms and schools. We build those classrooms and schools by investing in public education – not strip-mining it for big profit.”
Source for the above quotes: KNOW Magazine from GAE, Volume 11, Issue 1
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 20th, 2012
8:51 pm
Union propaganda, Mary Elizabeth?
Lame.
Del
October 20th, 2012
8:58 pm
Where I’m fortunate to leave the public schools are great with highly motivated and capable teachers. Unfortunately, that’s not the case statewide and nationally. Competition typically brings out the best and charter schools can provide that competition. We need to move on from the union mentality that even though teachers unions no longer exist in Georgia that mentality still lives on.
Del
October 20th, 2012
9:20 pm
OOP’s fortunate to live not leave.
Rockstar
October 20th, 2012
9:22 pm
I am not opposed to charter schools. But for me, approval of the charter amendment will continue the devaluing of elections at the local level. We cannot say the elections matter at the national and state level, but because we may not like how democratically-elected school board members vote, the State’s appointed commission will override their decisions. Just think about it this way for a moment. Parents in a community want a liberal arts college built to compete with a local university. The university has large class sizes, which does not appeal to the parents, and most of it’s graduates leave the community. The Board of Regents does not approve the college, and the parents appeal to the U.S. Department of Education. The appeal is granted under authority newly given by the Congress and signed into law by the President. The State files suit with the federal court citing an overreach of federal control and wins, but Congress votes to change the U.S Constitution, given authority to the Education Department to approve the college at the parent request, but in opposition of the democratically-elected Georgia legislators, the Governor, and the appointed Board of Regents members. Now I realize this scenario is filled with hypotheticals, but imagine the response from our Governor and General Assembly….
Mary Elizabeth
October 20th, 2012
9:29 pm
I believe in the free enterprise system and in capitalism as the best economic engine for our nation, but I do not believe that public education should be part of that profit-oriented enterprise. Public education must not be used as a profit-making enterprise for profiteers who would use children for profit purposes to enrich themselves. Public education needs to remain as Jefferson envisioned it – paid for by public taxes to serve all of society’s children. Public education can be improved with the help of some public charter schools, but not those established through the politically based, imo, state Commission for Charter Schools which the Constitutional Amendment would establish.
The membership of the State Commission of Charter Schools would come from a list supplied by Georgia’s House Majority Leader and Georgia’s President of the Senate, as well as from the Governor, all of whom are Republican politicians. In addition, Rep. Jan Jones and Rep. Edward Lindsey, who sponsored HR 1162 which became the Constitutional Amendment, are both members of the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC). Please preview the link, below, to see how ALEC has had its political influence into this legislation. Rep. Jones is part of the Educational Task Force of ALEC as well as on the Education Committee of Georgia’s House of Representatives.”
http://mediamatters.org/research/2012/05/09/how-alec-is-quietly-influencing-education-refor/184156
Vote NO to Amendment 1 in NOvember.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 20th, 2012
9:35 pm
If an evil for-profit corporation can do a better job of educating children at equal or lower cost than the government, there is absolutely no reason not to go that route.
Last time I checked, public school teachers weren’t showing up every day just for the fun of it…they do it for their own greedy profit motive.
Mary Elizabeth
October 20th, 2012
9:44 pm
I urge readers of this blog to take a few minutes to listen to the teenage students in the video below – which they produced – explain succinctly why you should vote NO to Amendment 1 in NOvember.
http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2012/10/18/student-produced-video-questions-push-for-charter-schools-amendment/
td
October 20th, 2012
9:47 pm
Lil’ Barry Bailout – Vote American
October 20th, 2012
9:35 pm
We agree 98% of the time but I disagree with you on this one. Schools are not the problem. The problem is the parents and until we the people get sick and tired of the sorry parents then education is not going to change no matter how much we spend or who is providing it. With that said a central core principle of conservatism is local control and this amendment takes away from local control so I am opposed to it on that philosophical principle and feel all conservatives should as well.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 20th, 2012
9:55 pm
Any ideas on how to fix the parent problem, td?
Perhaps the biggest cause of the parent problem is single-parent families.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 20th, 2012
9:59 pm
Children do best when raised in a normal, two parent family with a mom and a dad. That really gets the libtards hacked off.
Don’t fear facts, libtards.
Cherokee
October 20th, 2012
10:18 pm
Usually it’s cons who will wail about ‘local control’.
Yet here is a situation where they want the state to be able to step in and make decisions for local school districts.
Could it be that conservatives have no real core values? Say it ain’t so!
td
October 20th, 2012
10:45 pm
Lil’ Barry Bailout – Vote American
October 20th, 2012
9:55 pm
Peer pressure is a good start and then you give incentives to the correct behavior and punish bad behavior. This should not be a left or right issue but an American issue. All Americans should shame parents that refuse to make education their first priority. Welfare should be attached to the grades children receive and then we would not have generational welfare.
Look at other countries like Japan. If you are a child in school and are not excelling in the classroom or are not behaving in the classroom then it brings shame to your entire family.
Dr. Pangloss
October 20th, 2012
10:59 pm
LeRoi2
October 19th, 2012
6:25 pm
My daughter is a HS teacher. She started teaching after a few years in the business world, and tired of the long hours and the competitiveness. She says it is a cake walk. Easiest job she could imagine. She teaches 5 classes a day of about 40 students, with an assistant. She puts in 40 hours a week, and never has to go over. She loves all of the time off, and the stress free atmosphere.
What she dislikes the most is all of the long time teachers doing nothing but complaining how hard their jobs are, how many hours they work, how parents dont help, etc. She says most of these teachers have been around over 20 years, have never had a job other than teaching, make $85K per year for a 10 month year, and have no idea what a real job entails. They also make no effort to teach, believing that they are already under paid just for showing up.
We need to get these kinds of burnout cases out of the schools. End tenure, hold teachers accountable for how much the students learn in their classes.
————————–
Nobody who is teaching 5 classes of 40 students is getting away with a 40-hour work week. That’s just not possible. Anybody who has had any connection with teaching knows that.
Decatur Joe
October 20th, 2012
11:16 pm
Kyle, thank you for your opinion. I agree with you.
Could you explain why your co-worker Maureen Downey is allowed to be so one sided in her education blog? She has always killed charter schools and most expecially the charter commission? Is it her job to be so one sided in her opinion?
I would ask her, but she does not allow me to post on her blog?
Decatur Joe
October 20th, 2012
11:18 pm
Mary Elizabeth, oh please! The kids are good actors, but they did not write that. M
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 21st, 2012
5:38 am
Cherokee: Usually it’s cons who will wail about ‘local control’.
———————-
Parents having school choice is the ultimate local control.
It’s usually libtards who will wail about “choice”, unless it interferes with their ability to control.
jezel
October 21st, 2012
7:17 am
LeRoi2
If your daughter is only putting in a 40 hour week …there is a good chance she will not be teaching for very long.
Numbers-R-US
October 21st, 2012
8:07 am
If the state takes control of education does this mean we can get rid of county and city governments and all the expenses associated with them. Let’s do it and then we can all get a tax cut.
juddist
October 21st, 2012
8:27 am
Kkkyle,
Please look at the states school rating system. Georgia is pretty low but the states on top spends a lot more money than GA, any correlation. Have you been to any charter schools? How well are they run? Did you know that private schools have the right to turn away any student it does not want, learning disabilities, mental disabilities, etc. Unless your child is perfect one should be very careful in what they vote for. I know KKKyle’s children are or will be perfect.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 21st, 2012
8:30 am
Meet Romney’s Economic Hitman
http://www.alternet.org/election-2012/meet-romneys-economic-hitman
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 21st, 2012
8:34 am
If your daughter is only putting in a 40 hour week …there is a good chance she will not be teaching for very long.
That’s a poor attitude. Some people can do much more in a given time period than others. Some are more effective teachers, workers, etc. Some can cut through the riff rafff much faster than others.
The attitude posted above is that of the tattle-tell who watches to see who is leaving work early or coming in late. It’s a sad life.
cc
October 21st, 2012
8:38 am
td, I rarely, if ever, disagree with you, but on the issue of the charter school amendment I must make an exception. Charter schools represent freedom of choice and the most basic of “local control”: a decision made by parents. I recommend to you the following article minus the comments of the all too predictable detractors. Virginia Galloway states the case far better than I can.
http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2012/09/24/charter-school-amendment-is-the-epitome-of-small-government/
cc
October 21st, 2012
8:49 am
“I know KKKyle’s children are or will be perfect.”
This one sentence tells what you are all about and weakens your entire argument.
cc
October 21st, 2012
8:52 am
Finn McCool@8:34 am:
Just when I was certain we would never agree on anything, you write something I completely agree with!
@@
October 21st, 2012
9:00 am
Dusty:
Parents who miss teacher conferences without a good excuse or no excuse should have their names listed in school newsletters.
My daughter would LUV that one. She has five schools on her schedule…all low-income. Except for her charter school parents, none show up for conferences. They won’t answer her calls or e-mails. When they don’t, she catches them during pick-up or drop-off. Goes in early to catch them at drop-off. They promise to show up and never do. Flimsy excuses are all she gets.
Still…she trudges on…doing the very best she can to serve the children’s needs.
Disgusted in Dekalb
October 21st, 2012
9:33 am
So, instead of fixing what we have (and accounting for all the money going in to it), we create a new parallel system and throw more money into it? Then we have two black holes sucking up our money.
The problem isn’t the education system, it is the administration of the education system. As usual, our kids are being screwed over by bureaucrats.
Disgusted in Dekalb
October 21st, 2012
9:37 am
What is truly pathetic is NO ONE is concerned about our kids. They’re concerned about the money or their agenda or some official who they think isn’t doing their job.
Its not about our kids, its about people getting THEIR way, not doing whats best for the kids. It is one of the biggest problems in our country today, the ARROGANCE of people. Everyone thinks their way is right and they are not inclined or able to compromise on ANYTHING.
@@
October 21st, 2012
9:45 am
Money doesn’t appear to be the problem.
1. New York
• Spending per pupil: $18,126
• Graduation rate: 72 percent
2. Washington, D.C.
• Spending per pupil: $16,408
• Graduation rate: 43 percent
3. New Jersey
• Spending per pupil: $16,271
• Graduation rate: 87 percent
4. Alaska
• Spending per pupil: $15,552
• Graduation rate: 66 percent
5. Vermont
• Spending per pupil: $15,175
• Graduation rate: 82 percent
6. Wyoming
• Spending per pupil: $14,573
• Graduation rate: 71 percent
7. Connecticut
• Spending per pupil: $14,531
• Graduation rate: 79 percent
45. Nevada
• Spending per pupil: $8,422
• Graduation rate: 44 percent
46. Mississippi
• Spending per pupil: $8,075
• Graduation rate: 61 percent
47. Tennessee
• Spending per pupil: $7,897
• Graduation rate: 77 percent
48. Oklahoma
• Spending per pupil: $7,855
• Graduation rate: 70 percent
49. Arizona
• Spending per pupil: $7,813
• Graduation rate: 67 percent
50. Idaho
• Spending per pupil: $7,092
• Graduation rate: 76 percent
51. Utah
• Spending per pupil: $6,356
• Graduation rate: 72 percent
Mary Elizabeth
October 21st, 2012
9:48 am
Just posted on Maureen Downey’s “Get Schooled” blog:
SEE, 9:35 am
“I can easily see someone abusing this system by starting ‘charter’ schools in several counties through bribes and political connections and making money for 5 years until the charters are forced to close. If it happens on the local level, then it will probably happen on a state level.”
========================================
Mary Elizabeth: “SEE, I am glad you see the picture and have stated it so well, above. To put it bluntly, imo, many have been duped, and by forces outside of Georgia (as well as within Georgia).”
cc
October 21st, 2012
9:57 am
Disgusted in Dekalb@9:33 am and 9:37 am:
Your first post expresses your opinion, and in your second post you write, “Everyone thinks their way is right and they are not inclined or able to compromise on ANYTHING.”
It doesn’t appear that you wish to compromise anything.
cc
October 21st, 2012
10:34 am
@@, money isn’t the problem. The government has thrown money at education for decades and has pitifully little to show for it.
Teaching once was a “calling”, but it now is merely a job for many people. I shall always be grateful that my education came at the hands of very dedicated professionals.
td
October 21st, 2012
10:41 am
cc
October 21st, 2012
8:38 am
I have been debating Virginia, her husband Darrel and several other AFP members over this issue for about three months now on Facebook. Yes they say it is total local control but when I ask them if they have control over discipline?, Curriculum? or the money then they have no answer. So my friend how can it be local control when you do not control these important issues?
On top of those questions if we pull all the cream of the crop (children whose parents place education as the number 1 priority) then what happens to the other 2/3 of the children in our schools? What happens to the special needs children? Where is the incentive to change these schools since all the parents that care have their children in these protected schools?
Think about those questions my friend and look at 20 years from now tell me what the gaps in education are going to look like then?
td
October 21st, 2012
10:48 am
cc
October 21st, 2012
8:38 am
Just one more point my friend. Charters do nothing but to segregate children (not racially but along the lines of parents that do and do not care if their children get an education). If you want true competition then vouchers is the answer and gives the parent the ultimate control because they control the money.
zeke
October 21st, 2012
10:50 am
What is Obozo’s favorite rant? We tried that before, it didn’t work. But in his case it is just another democrat lie! What is true is that they have tried the democrat socialist agenda since 1900 and IT STILL WILL NOT WORK! Government schools are no more than indoctrination centers that mangle the minds of mush that are our children! Throwing more and more money and other resources at this failed education system is useless! We have tried it for decades, it makes no difference, IT DOES NOT WORK!!!