Poll Position: Do we need moderators in presidential debates?
Through three debates — two between the presidential candidates, one featuring their running mates — there’s been one constant: The moderators have been part of the story each time. PBS’ Jim Lehrer was faulted by some for being too hands-off; ABC’s Martha Raddatz for being too quick to interrupt; CNN’s Candy Crowley for playing fact-checker during one particularly heated exchange between President Obama and Mitt Romney.
Do we need moderators for presidential debates?
- Absolutely (131 Votes)
- Never (53 Votes)
- Only in some of them (46 Votes)
Total Voters: 230
Loading ...(As an aside, as someone who’s moderated several debates myself, Crowley was wrong to intervene in that manner for two reasons, neither of them partisan: First, it wasn’t her place to offer an opinion; if she was trying to cut off the debate and move on to another topic, she should have simply said, “This one will have to go to the fact-checkers.” Second, fact-checking isn’t part of the moderator’s job largely because the moderator has too much else going on to be counted on to be a reliable fact-checker, from keeping track of speaking time to paying attention to which question comes next and even whose turn it is to give the first answer to that question. Crowley was, we can only assume, going off memory about what Obama said at a press briefing almost five weeks earlier, and with more than 60 million people watching. She was just as likely to make a mistake or misspeak as the candidates were.)
Rather than arguing about which moderator did the best job, or which style is best, my question to you today is: Do we even need moderators for these debates?
Throughout the primary season, Newt Gingrich famously challenged anyone and everyone to “Lincoln-Douglas style debates” without moderators. How much would you like to see Obama and Romney taking turns asking each other questions rather than relying on journalists and “undecided” voters bound to be accused of being partisan? (One thing I thought was clear from Tuesday night’s debate was that none of the questioners sounded all that “undecided” — their questions were aimed at one candidate or the other.)
Ah, you may ask, but who will cut off the candidates when they speak too long if there isn’t a moderator?
Well, the first three debates have proven human moderators aren’t very good at cutting off the candidates anyway. A CNN honcho even defended Crowley’s over-allowance of time to Obama — a repeat from Lehrer’s moderation of the first debate — on the ludicrous grounds that Obama speaks more slowly than Romney and might not have gotten in more actual words during his extra minutes of speaking time.
In any case, technology would do a much better job: Simply flash a red light when a candidate has 5 or 10 seconds left, and then cut off his microphone when the time has elapsed.
And what about the questions? Wouldn’t the candidates just make the debates meaningless or overly partisan by getting bogged down in gotcha-style questions?
Oh, you mean like George Stephanopoulos, apropos of nothing, asking GOP candidates about banning contraceptives last January?
It’s a problem that already exists with moderators. But it’s also one that, if the candidates themselves did it, would force voters to evaluate the candidates for asking such questions rather than letting the moderators take the blame. If Obama or Romney asks a gotcha question, he’d have to defend his choice as much as the other candidate had to defend his answer.
You might guess where I land on this issue, for at least one debate per cycle. But what say you? Do we need moderators in presidential debates?
It’s the return, after a brief hiatus, of the Poll Position question. Answer in the nearby poll and in the comments thread below.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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266 comments Add your comment
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
11:31 am
“In any case, technology would do a much better job: Simply flash a red light when a candidate has 5 or 10 seconds left, and then cut off his microphone when the time has elapsed.”
Cutting off the mike seems so – antiseptic – Kyle.
I suggest the use of the diving horn used on submarines in addition to cutting of the mike. First, it will scare the crap out of the candidates enough to stop speaking well before the time limit, and second:
It would be funny as all get out if they went over.
Arnold
October 19th, 2012
11:42 am
With a diving horn they would probably have to change their shorts.
Arnold
October 19th, 2012
11:43 am
I would like to see a real debate. No moderating at all.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
11:49 am
And I’d prefer a random picking of questioners rather than the moderator, especially given the fact that there will never be anything but a leftist moderator picked for these debates.
Screen all questions for appropriateness (no “Boxer or Briefs” stuff), assign them numbers and have a lottery.
This way the moderator can’t cherry-pick ones that are gotchas.
Pat Gunn
October 19th, 2012
11:49 am
I think we need much stronger moderation in debates, and ideally a panel of fact-checkers to identify and cover claims. The point of debates is to allow for direct engagement between each side and the views of the other; offering more pr-crafted hot air and demagoguery is highly undesirable; if someone happens to be good at speaking over their opponent or sprouts a bunch of lies, that shouldn’t win them the debate. The more structure and the more fact-checking that routinely happens in a debate, the more meaningful the discussion is.
southpaw
October 19th, 2012
11:49 am
Lincoln and Douglas at least answered each other’s questions. Nowadays, a candidate will try to change the question he was asked into a different question he wants to answer. Gingrich may want to think about a way to prevent that. A moderator is probably needed to keep candidates on topic. If candidates can stay on topic themselves, then we can do without the moderator.
MM
October 19th, 2012
11:50 am
Only a conservative would advocate LESS fact-checking during a debate. For too long we have seen unimpeded bald-faced lying as a easy way to dodge accountability during these so-called debates. “Let the voters” decide is a a joke when we have a nation of low-information voters. The sickening string of Republican primary debates allowed demeaning falsehoods that is good for entertainment but this practice should be abandoned for the real election.
Politicians should not be allowed to get away with such obvious lies. What’s bad for plutocracy is good for democracy.
MANGLER
October 19th, 2012
11:52 am
No moderator. Let them go at it like bickering teenagers going through a break up. You can learn a lot about a person by how the handle that kind of stress. And truth (through the eyes of the candidate) seems to have this annoying little way of coming out when they are distracted by actually arguing. Had they not been cut off as much Tuesday night, we may have actually seen some honest answers fall out of their mouths once they finished flash-boiling their canned responses out.
Beyond The Middle of the Road
October 19th, 2012
11:56 am
Yes, we need GOOD moderators. But IMHO we’ve only had one really good moderator this year and that would be Martha.
fair and balanced
October 19th, 2012
12:01 pm
MSNBC- Ed Schultz is broadcasting live from Freeport Illinois tonight. If you are at all concerned about outsourcing, Bain Capital and where American jobs are going you might want to watch. American workers forced to train their Chinese replacements before they are laid off. PS Romney is still an investor in Bain and there is no blind trust. it is a bold faced lie.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 19th, 2012
12:02 pm
new report shows that he and his wife made at least $15.3 million courtesy of Obama’s auto bailout. According to a Greg Palast, who followed the paper trail for The Nation, Romney and his wife made the money via an investment in a hedge fund that saw astronomical returns on its investments in an auto parts maker that would have gone under absent the president’s rescue operation.
http://www.thenation.com/article/170644/mitt-romneys-bailout-bonanza#
Hillbilly D
October 19th, 2012
12:04 pm
My idea of a moderator-less debate would be to do it this way. Flip a coin to see who asks the first question. The other candidate gets an allotted amount of time to answer. Both candidates are fitted with shock collars, hooked up to an electronic timer. Go over the time limit? Zap. After a couple of times, they’ll get the message.
As for fact checkers, that’s the responsibility of those watching the debate. Do you really need somebody to tell you what’s true and what isn’t? Me, I’ll make up my own mind.
The last few decades that we’ve been having these debates, these problems always come up. The moderators always seem to think the debate is about them. I guess it’s what comes when you turn newsreaders (that’s what the BBC used to call them) into celebrities.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 19th, 2012
12:04 pm
You might guess where I land on this issue,
And if we change it, you Cons will whine about something with the new system. The cycle of whining will continue until only the Republican candidate is allowed to speak during the debate.
Increased circulation
October 19th, 2012
12:05 pm
No moderators are needed; we need to let Romney tell his lies and not call him on it. Joe Isuzu in 2016!
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 19th, 2012
12:06 pm
Go over the time limit? Zap. After a couple of times, they’ll get the message.
Or, go over the limit and we subtract 10 electoral college point from your November total.
MrLiberty
October 19th, 2012
12:08 pm
They knew the questions in advance, the topics in advance, had agreed upon everything except what the weather would be like outside. Who cares whether or not there are moderators.
What we need are actual divergent viewpoints being discussed. What we need are more candidates from more parties being represented. Even if a second viewpoint were being presented it would be nice. You know, something other than the status quo.
Here are some words you never heard mentioned during the debates (any of them) Federal Reserve, Guantanamo, Freedom, Liberty, the Constitution, Drones, marijuana/industrial hemp/the drug war. And the list could go on and on. Serious topics that neither candidate cares one bit about, but are central to why our country is so messed up.
I mean if two presidential candidates and their vice presidential running mates aren’t even willing to mention the Constitution, freedom, or liberty over the course of 3 debates, what is left of this country to work for?? Something to think about.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
12:08 pm
“Romney is still an investor in Bain and there is no blind trust. it is a bold faced lie.”
Yes, fair and balanced. Saying there is no blind trust IS a bold faced lie.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Oh, and Ed Schultz? Had a woman on his show last night who honestly believes that contraceptives will be banned if Romney is elected, despite no evidence of same.
The MSNBC lineup from start to finish is filled with hyper-partisan leftists who will say anything outrageous, no matter how false, to push their narrative.
Pat Gunn
October 19th, 2012
12:09 pm
@Hillbilly Not sure if you’re meant as a parody of countryfolk or a real person; I’m assuming the latter, at the risk of responding to a parody. Factchecking at its best involves minimal need for judgement on complex matters; if something is solidly right or wrong, it’s not up to you to make up your own mind; the speaker is right or wrong if there are facts to the matter, and people deserve to know, based on people doing the research, whether things are facts or not. This “make up your mind” thing is sheer stupidity that helps justify people ignoring when political figures get things wrong or lie, and it makes our politics worse.
carlosgvv
October 19th, 2012
12:09 pm
The man who is speaking should have his mike turned on. The other man should have his turned off.
Kyle Wingfield
October 19th, 2012
12:10 pm
MM @ 11:50: You ignore the fact that Crowley back-tracked on her debate comments afterward. So, were we better served by having her say one thing to 60 million people and something else to 5 million (or whatever CNN’s audience was post-debate)?
Look, I’m telling you from experience: As a moderator, your attention is too divided to be able to recall facts accurately enough and to grasp, in the moment, the particular nuance a candidate might be using. If you want live fact-checking, fine, I’m not going to oppose it (though I will question how you’re going to pull it off usefully in real time) — but it shouldn’t be the moderator.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
12:11 pm
Finn, do you read any INFORMATIVE websites?
Or do you stick to just the extensions of the DNC?
Kyle Wingfield
October 19th, 2012
12:11 pm
Finn @ 12:02: And yet, he opposed it. So are you really saying he had a conflict of interest? And did The Nation “follow the paper trail” of Obama’s investments — or those of his campaign donors?
Stephenson Billings
October 19th, 2012
12:11 pm
Pension Envy: Who Has More—Obama or Romney?
“As president, he will receive $191,300 annually for life — win or lose in next month’s election — and receives a travel allotment as well as mailing privileges. Should Obama lose, his presidential pension kicks in immediately after leaving office.
Given that the president enjoys a normal life span, the pension allotment would be worth upwards of $6 million.
The federal budget spends about $3 million annually for the four living ex-presidents. Obama also will get Secret Service protection.
In addition, Obama may be due a nice pension for the eight years he served in the Illinois Legislature as a state senator.
Illinois is infamous for its lavish pension plan for former lawmakers. A Freedom of Information Act request for Obama’s pension amount submitted Wednesday to the General Assembly Retirement System of Illinois was not immediately answered, nor was a call to the Obama campaign.”
http://www.cnbc.com/id/49450057
Del
October 19th, 2012
12:11 pm
I think there should be a moderator but only to present the questions and watch the clock. It was disappointing to see all of the appointed moderators coming from the left side of the political spectrum. Jim Leher lost control in the first debate mostly because Romney wouldn’t allow himself to be cut off and that coupled with Obama’s poor performance worked out very well for candidate Romney. The VP debate and Tuesdays second presidential debate clearly had the two liberal moderators tipping the scales for Biden and Obama. Both Ryan and Romney held their own, so the Romney momentum hasn’t been reversed. We’ll know if the second debate with Obama’s better performance has had any effect by tomorrow or Monday. Romney’s missed opportunity Tuesday regarding the Benghazi question may still be rectified Monday in the final debate. Since the topic will be foreign affairs Libya should once again come up and Romney, should be well prepared to take Obama apart on this unfortunate Obama administrations failure.
Lucius Dark
October 19th, 2012
12:11 pm
Every debate should be fact checked on the spot after EVERY exchange. Only a liar would fear that.
Double Standard
October 19th, 2012
12:12 pm
Our candidates do no not have enough “class” or civility for a Lincoln – Douglass style debate . The moral decline in the House and Senate still has not bottomed out yet. If the debaters came from this group you could make it work. This is the type of entertainment our Nation enjoys. At some point , voters will stop participating in the process and come to the conclusion it is every man for himself.
Kyle Wingfield
October 19th, 2012
12:13 pm
Hillbilly @ 12:04: Funny, I’ve joked about the shock collar thing myself.
“President Obama, there is a man in Wyoming holding the device to trigger your shock collar. Governor Romney, there is a women in Queens holding the trigger for yours. Neither will become live until your time has elapsed. Speak too long at your peril, gentlemen.”
Of course, that would make it even more like reality TV than it already is…
Pat Gunn
October 19th, 2012
12:13 pm
@Kyle: “The world must stand together to unequivocally reject these brutal acts…No acts of terror will ever shake the resolve of this great nation, alter that character, or eclipse the light of the values that we stand for.” — Obama in the Rose Garden on 12 September.
Stephenson Billings
October 19th, 2012
12:13 pm
UPDATE: PolitiFact, the fact-checking arm of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, has confirmed that Obama does participate in the Illinois pension fund, which was organized in the Cayman Islands and has interests in China.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
12:14 pm
“I mean if two presidential candidates and their vice presidential running mates aren’t even willing to mention the Constitution, freedom, or liberty over the course of 3 debates, what is left of this country to work for?? ”
Then maybe you should have actually listened to the first debate, Mr. Liberty.
Stephenson Billings
October 19th, 2012
12:15 pm
Obama: ‘We Got Back Every Dime’ of Bailout; CBO: Bailout Will Lose $24 Billion
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/obama-we-got-back-every-dime-bailout-cbo-bailout-will-lose-24-billion
Kyle Wingfield
October 19th, 2012
12:16 pm
Pat @ 12:13: Go ahead — give us the rest of the context. And then give us the quotes from all of Obama’s other statements in the weeks that followed.
Henne
October 19th, 2012
12:16 pm
Candy will vote for the incumbent. I am as sure of it as I am of the sun coming up in the East. It colors her performance.
jd
October 19th, 2012
12:18 pm
The moderators have been a sham, so I vote, no more moderators…not only was candy biased in her selection of questions and her time management and “fact checking”, let’s also remember obama was at martha’s wedding…actually, I am in favor of NO debates.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
12:19 pm
I don’t see how Obama doesn’t get hammered on Benghazi Monday night. Romney will have had a week to sharpen the message to clear up any wordsmithing issues, and Obama STILL doesn’t have an answer (because the only answer is “He lied!”
Pat Gunn
October 19th, 2012
12:19 pm
@Stephenson Just looked into that; both seem to be true; the loanlike components were repaid, but there were associated costs with the logistics of the program detailed in the PDF file from the CBO linked from that article. Interesting reading.
Stephenson Billings
October 19th, 2012
12:20 pm
Ahead of Election, Obama Stops Releasing ‘Stimulus’ Reports
“The $831,000,000,000 economic “stimulus” that President Obama spearheaded and signed into law requires his administration to release quarterly reports on its effects. But “the most transparent administration in the history of our country” is now four reports behind schedule and has so far not released any reports whatsoever in 2012. Its most recent quarterly report is for the quarter than ended on June 30, 2011.”
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/ahead-election-obama-stops-releasing-stimulus-reports_654968.html
Daniell Dilliers
October 19th, 2012
12:20 pm
I tend to agree with you that we no longer need moderators as in all three debates, the Dems candidate got more time and less opportunity to rebattle and they all represented a media channel favorable to the democrats. Equally, the current election commission needs to be thrown as it is an agent of the two parties. If we need a moderator, better be someone from the libertarian party since they are not included and they will ask the tough questions.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
12:21 pm
And if Obama calls out Romney for changing the wording of the debate point, Romney can just come back with, “Sorry, Mr. President, but last week I suffered from a Biden moment.”
George
October 19th, 2012
12:22 pm
The only reason Romney ran away with the first debate was because he told lies after lies and Obama never called him out! But how can anyone be surprised. Romney did say he was going to move to the center for the general elections if the won the GOP primaries with his right wing agenda. Even Republicans have to be worried about which Romney is going to occupy the WH if he won.
Stephenson Billings
October 19th, 2012
12:22 pm
CIA found militant links a day after Libya attack
“The CIA station chief in Libya reported to Washington within 24 hours of last month’s deadly attack on the U.S. Consulate that there was evidence it was carried out by militants, not a spontaneous mob upset about an American-made video ridiculing Islam’s Prophet Muhammad, U.S. officials have told The Associated Press.”
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20121019/DA20G2701.html
Pat Gunn
October 19th, 2012
12:24 pm
@Kyle I am sure you can look it up yourself. It’s not a point worth making a big deal over (and in fact I think Obama may have been wrong to call it an “act of terror” before a more through investigation was done, but it’s hard to really know what information the president has access to at any given point on developing stories), but Romney was factually incorrect to claim that Obama didn’t characterise it as terrorism very early on. I find it more strange that that was used as a point of attack in the debates to begin with. Not all information is going to be available to a president on an issue immediately; there are (nonpolitical, and usually static across presidents) teams that work on getting information and providing an analysis for the president, and it takes time for them to do their job. It would be foolhardy for a president to jump to conclusions ahead of the facts.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 19th, 2012
12:25 pm
Can you imagine if Obama had a black son and he had said something like this ?
Tagg Romney was asked how it felt when he heard “the president of the United States call your dad a liar.”
“Jump out of your seat and you want to rush down to the stage and take a swing at him,” Tagg answered
The outrage from the right would have been enormous.
Kyle, Fox News, Drudge. This would have been a huge story.
But because its the other way around its really not a big deal.
Very interesting isn’t it.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
12:28 pm
Pat Gunn, their intelligence chief knew within 24 hours that it was a coordinated attack (as in a terrorist attack). The mere fact that RPGs were used showed it was a terrorist attack. Common-sense says it was a terrorist attack from the get-go.
Obama used the words “No acts of terror will ever shake the resolve of this great nation, alter that character, or eclipse the light of the values that we stand for.” in the ABSTRACT, not the specific.
At some point you really need to stop defending the indefensible.
Stephenson Billings
October 19th, 2012
12:28 pm
Volt no jolt: LG Chem employees idle
Factory has yet to ship out a single battery
“Workers at LG Chem, a $300 million lithium-ion battery plant heavily funded by taxpayers, tell Target 8 that they have so little work to do that they spend hours playing cards and board games, reading magazines or watching movies.
They say it’s been going on for months.
[snip]
The company’s goal: 300 employees pumping out 15 million battery cells a year. Its biggest customer: The Chevrolet Volt.
The U.S. Department of Energy provided a $151 million grant, part of Obama’s Recovery Act.
The Korea-based company recently said it has 200 employees, and the company’s most recent federal filing shows 100 of them are funded through the Recovery Act grant.”
http://www.woodtv.com/dpp/news/target_8/Volt-no-jolt-LG-Chem-employees-idle
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
12:29 pm
“The only reason Romney ran away with the first debate was because he told lies after lies”
I’d say please detail them for us, George, but we’ve already debunked the DNC talking points this week.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 19th, 2012
12:31 pm
It would be foolhardy for a president to jump to conclusions ahead of the facts.
But yet that’s exactly what they wanted him to do.
Great documentary on Discovery about Getting OBL.
Was mentioned that Obama was ridiculed ( even by his own party ) for saying he would move unilaterally and strike inside Pakistan if needed.
Well he did just that.
I have no doubt that if Bush or Bush 2.0 ( Romney ) had been president that OBL, the mastermind of 9/11, would still be alive today.
This is also part of the bigger Republican Karl Rovian strategy. The know dang well that Obama is stronger on Foreign Policy. That Romney and Ryan have absolutely no Foreign policy experience whatsoever.
So you attack their strength.
They did just that back in 2004 to John Kerry. They knew his Military record would hurt Bush by comparison.
So what do you do ? Swift boat em.
Hopefully enough Americans aren’t that stupid.
But in the red states they definitely are.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
12:32 pm
I guess Cheesy didn’t like the answer given in the earlier thread, so he repeated the nonsense up here.
Hint, Cheesy: Most normal people take exception to listening to blatant lies about their fathers.
Hillbilly D
October 19th, 2012
12:32 pm
Pat Gunn
Even those who are 180 degrees from me in opinions, would tell you I’m a real person, I believe. It’s not like I’m new here. I totally disagree with you on fact-checking in a debate. One only needs to read this or any other blog to learn that “facts” are largely a matter of opinion and which side of the fence you sit on. Therefore, I believe it’s up to each individual to decide for themselves who is telling a lie and who is telling the truth (or if neither of them is). You can look at budget numbers, the Libya situation and a whole host of other things for examples that one man’s fact is another man’s lie and vice versa. When it comes to deciding which is which, I’ll rely on myself rather than some talking head.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 19th, 2012
12:32 pm
I’d say please detail them for us, George, but we’ve already debunked the DNC talking points this week.
Just skip to the part when his mouth was open.
The man has been running for President for 20 years.
He will say anything to anybody to get elected.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 19th, 2012
12:33 pm
Hint, Cheesy: Most normal people take exception to listening to blatant lies about their fathers.
Reading comprehension is tough I know.
You dont even understand the point I was making.
Totally over your head but thats ok.
Pat Gunn
October 19th, 2012
12:34 pm
@Stephenson Actually, I think those reports exist, but someone forgot to link to them from the website. Here’s one: https://www.cbo.gov/publication/43552
Dum-Bass
October 19th, 2012
12:34 pm
If there is a moderator, it needs to be someone WHO CAN BE IMPARTIAL, and that would exclude any news media, period. Maybe even someone from overseas who just served as a “question asker” and timekeeper and nothing more. I don’t know who is responsible for appointing them this year but so far they have all leaned left, even if subtlety. Even the last one has Bob Schieffer, and good grief, he is such a far left liberal I’m amazed his right arm hasn’t fallen off! BTW, I got a good laugh out of looking up Candy Crowley’s middle name. I was already calling her something rather derogatory using an “A” as her middle initial. You can figure it out as it’s pretty common. I stumbled across her name on google and noticed it was indeed “A”. When I looked it up it was just 3 letters as I had been using, but no it wasn’t that, her middle name was instead “ALT” (yep, unusual). Can’t believe how close it actually was to “Candy A–”.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
12:34 pm
Oh, and Cheesy?
If all you’ve got to run on is Big Bird, binders and Tagg Romney, you need to get some bigger issues and ideas.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 19th, 2012
12:35 pm
Kyle ignores the fact that Crowley was right.
It only matters to him that she made his guy look bad.
You see being right isn’t the point.
Thats what they have come to.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
12:35 pm
“You dont even understand the point I was making.”
Then make it clearer, Cheesy.
But I don’t think you can.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
12:37 pm
“Kyle ignores the fact that Crowley was right.”
Uh, Cheesy?
Crowley walked back her “correction” the very next day.
You see, she was wrong.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
12:38 pm
“The man has been running for President for 20 years.”
Actually, just 8.
Is there anything you won’t get wrong, Cheesy?
MarkV
October 19th, 2012
12:39 pm
The whining of the Republicans about the debate moderators is pathetic. Any journalist more even handed than the Fox News propaganda machine is for them a liberal that should be excluded.
The candidates participate voluntarily in the debates, and should abide by the rules. Romney is being praised because he wouldn’t allow himself to be cut off by Jim Lehrer and because he spoke over the moderator, CNN’s Candy Crowley, but it only shows his lack of discipline.
Sid
October 19th, 2012
12:40 pm
I’ll call your moderator, push all in & ask why we even have debates? there’s zero correlation between what they say in them & what they end up doing if they’re elected. it’d be a lot simpler (& more accurate) to just have accurate accounting of their campaign funding (including indirect sources) – that’s all you need to know…
Pat Gunn
October 19th, 2012
12:40 pm
@Tiberius: It’s not indefensible; it’s not even an issue. His statements were clear enough, and I might’ve preferrred more caution than he exercised. Those making an issue of this seem to be upset that less caution was not applied; data from multiple sources would be good before the US President risks credibility of the nation by weighing in.
@Hillbilly No. If you believe that, you’re part of the problem. Facts are facts. Factcheckers are necessary because otherwise people will use their “gut instinct” to figure things out, and they will often be wrong and easily be manipulated. The reason “one man’s fact is another man’s lie” is that most people don’t bother to fact-check and most people are ignorant and looking for an easy win for their society. Good fact-checking will keep people honest and reign everyone in. I don’t want liberals to get facts wrong any more than I want conservatives to. Distance from facts is enormously harmful to our democracy. The whole reason we have universities, science, doctors, and other forms of expertise is that going by “gut feelings” is a very lousy way to look at the world.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
12:43 pm
“Romney is being praised because he wouldn’t allow himself to be cut off by Jim Lehrer and because he spoke over the moderator, CNN’s Candy Crowley, but it only shows his lack of discipline.”
Yeah, ’cause no alcohol, smoking, caffeinated beverages or drugs for 65 years, all the while accomplishing almost everything he’s set out to do with his life-long sweetheart by his side, is a sure sign of an undisciplined person, MarkV.
Steve
October 19th, 2012
12:45 pm
Moderators are there for one reason – provide structure, facilitate decorum, and to get candidates to answer questions. As we saw in the town hall, it was too easy for either to take a question asked by an audience member and roll the subject into memorized talking points.
With no moderator, it will just be the candidates giving stump speeches and pre-written zingers carefully crafted and opinion-tested by the campaigns. Moderators should not fact-check, but they should force candidates to actually answer the questions asked.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
12:46 pm
“It’s not indefensible; it’s not even an issue.”
Our Ambasador and 3 others are dead due to insufficient security via a terrorist attack, and you call it a non-issue, Pat?
I sure hope Obama uses that argument on Monday night. We can call the election for Romney right then and there.
MarkV
October 19th, 2012
12:46 pm
Candy Crowley was right when she corrected Romney. Whether she stepped back in face of the onslaught from the right is immaterial; what matter are facts, and those support what she told Romney during the debate.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
12:48 pm
“Moderators should not fact-check, but they should force candidates to actually answer the questions asked.”
Exactly, Steve!
Maybe Bill O’Reilly should moderate the next debate.
Pat Gunn
October 19th, 2012
12:49 pm
@Tiberius You know full well that when I say it’s a non-issue, I am talking to the confusion some people have over when it was called a terrorist attack, not the unfortunate fact that there was an attack to begin with.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
12:49 pm
“Candy Crowley was right when she corrected Romney. ”
Repeating the false narrative over and over doesn’t make it right, MarkV.
She walked it back because she got caught being wrong.
Pat Gunn
October 19th, 2012
12:50 pm
@Tiberius Except she wasn’t wrong. I pasted Obama’s quote earlier in the discussion.
Hillbilly D
October 19th, 2012
12:51 pm
Pat Gunn
We’ll just have to agree to disagree and that’s a fact.
Del
October 19th, 2012
12:52 pm
Anyone who has objectively followed the Benghazi failure with resultant loss of life knows that the Obama administration was attempting to sell the story that the attack was a spontaneous reaction to the video. That was exactly the context in which Obama described it in the Rose Garden. The mention of terrorism was only a generic reference. However, the words aren’t the issue. The issue is with the documented previous attacks, the declined requests for additional security along with CIA reports and video/audio showing the attack and the fact that there was no proceeding demonstration the Obama administration still attempted to deflect focus away from the facts for two weeks. Today it’s even being reported that the two former SEALS who were killed were not part of the councilates security team. They were in Benghazi working with the CIA trying to find out where and how the former Libyan army’s rocket launchers ended up. When it was learned that an attack was in progress they went there to assist. Evidently, they managed to save lives, while losing theirs in the process. This was either an attempt to cover up incompetency or an attempt to suppress truth just before an election.
getalife
October 19th, 2012
12:53 pm
“We’ve got to name this condition that he’s going through,” Obama said, referring to Mitt Romney’s attempt to undergo a last-minute transformation from a severe conservative to a severe moderate. “I think it’s called Romnesia. That’s what it’s called. I think that’s what he’s going through.”
“Now,” he continued, “I’m not a medical doctor, but i do want to go over the symptoms with you—because i want to make sure nobody else catches it.”
And what might those symptoms be? Here’s one example: “You know if you say if you’re for equal pay, but you can’t say if you’ll sign a bill for equal pay, you might have Romnesia.” And: “If you say you think women should have access to contraceptive care, but you support legislation that would let employers deny contraceptive care, you might have Romnesia.” And another: “If you say you you’ll protect a woman’s right to choose, but you stand up in a primary debate and say you’d be delighted to ban abortion in all cases, then you definitely have Romnesia.”
But you don’t need to worry, said the President. “If you have Romnesia, here’s the good news—Obamacare covers preexisting conditions. We can fix you! We can make you well.”
Pat Gunn
October 19th, 2012
12:53 pm
@Hillbilly If you want to live in a world where Democrats and Republicans can lie with inpunity because nobody fact-checks them to keep them honest, and everyone thinks they can figure out things in life by relying on their gut rather than going with experts, you are contributing to making society worse. This shouldn’t be a partisian issue. People make mistakes, and they should be called out on it. People lie, and they should be called out by it. We need experts and people going over records to help with that.
JDW
October 19th, 2012
12:54 pm
First off I agree with Kyle on Crowley’s “fact checking” and I am pretty sure she does as well. I think it just slipped out.
Second these are not debates they are discussions. As someone that has actually debated, a real debate is quite structured, judged at the time and you are not allowed to exceed your time. Part of the skill is to frame your comments within the time.
That said I think a Presidential debate format should offer the opportunity for flexibility. Part of the problem we have is that we are trying to limit the time to 90 minutes…why…so what if it takes 2 hours or 2 and a half.
I would much prefer a format where there are a defined number of questions…one candidate has say 2 minutes to respond the other 2 to rebut and then if the moderator thinks there is value in additional discussion or a candidate has more to say equal timeslots can be allocated for as long as desired. There should be NO interrupting. The debate continues for as long as it takes.
Pat Gunn
October 19th, 2012
12:54 pm
“Anyone knows”? What sources do you have for that assertion?
Tom Mariner
October 19th, 2012
12:56 pm
Of course we need moderators. But Candy Crowley showed us how dishonestly slipping in a ringer for one candidate can damage the whole reason for the debate which is to just for once let Americans see the candidates without the biased words and image selection of a press that has abandoned all journalistic ethics.
We grant the Candy Crowley’s of the “press” latitude because they are protected by the First Amendment — and not one of them has apologized to the American voters for abusing that trust. They think it is perfectly moral to fool viewers into thinking they are getting fairness when it is words right out of the campaign office. Lacking any real journalists in this country, I would suggest a moderator for each side throwing softball “give me your talking points” questions while yelling “you lie” at the other guy — but that’s what the candidates themselves are supposed to do. So maybe because of the dishonesty of the American “press”, maybe nobody would be better.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
12:56 pm
“You know full well that when I say it’s a non-issue, I am talking to the confusion some people have over when it was called a terrorist attack, not the unfortunate fact that there was an attack to begin with.”
Actually, Pat, I didn’t. I’ve learned that liberals will say just about anything to maintain their innocence in these discussions.
However, you seem to forget the abstract nature of Obama’s comment in the Rose Garden, and his repeated denial of a terrorist attack for over two weeks. You seem to forget that demonstrators don’t carry RPGs to demonstrations – terrorists do.
The administration’s narrative about having AQ on the run has been removed from speeches, and it’s because they can’t make that claim now that they have no more room to spin this attack. Even the MSM is calling them out for the whitewashing of facts In any other administration, Susan Rice wouldn’t have been fed the lies, and if she did it on her own, she’d have been asked to resign or be fired. But not this administration – it’s never their fault for anything bad happening on their watch.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
12:59 pm
“@Tiberius Except she wasn’t wrong.”
Even Candy Crowley disagrees with you, Pat.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
1:04 pm
“If you say you think women should have access to contraceptive care, but you support legislation that would let employers deny contraceptive care, you might have Romnesia.”
Nobody’s buying the lies, getalife.
Except for the already brainwashed.
No one is proposing denying access to contraceptives.
No one.
Del
October 19th, 2012
1:08 pm
Crowley did attempt to walk back her comment during the debate by acknowledging that Romney was “correct in the main” This is a much bigger issue than Obama’s word choice in the Rose Garden. Those who purport to dislike lies, misinformation and cover ups should be paying very close attention to the facts that have been surfacing. These fact show a far greater concern than narrowly focusing only on what Obama said or how he said it the day following this incident.
Pat Gunn
October 19th, 2012
1:08 pm
@Tiberius It didn’t seem at all abstract to me; it seems a plain reading of what he was saying that he thought it was a terrorist attack when he made those statements in the Rose Garden. Whether he toned that down later as he received more information that might’ve been conflicting or not is another matter; I don’t know what he got from the intelligence services at his disposal, and neither do you. I think it’s bizarre that timing over characterisation of the attacks is a political point, given that how all this was handled involves so much relevant information that the public will never be privy to (how the intelligence forces that aid the presidents work and how quickly they give particular conclusions is probably something only a handful pf people in America really know).
I’d be curious what specific facts you or the MSM are claiming are being whitewashed; if we can get into the specifics we can look at them (and calls for specifics are almost always healthy in discussions like these because, being as human as politicians, if we’re allowed to handwave, we’ll handwave).
I’m willing to tolerate a certain margin of error from elected figures, just as I am of businesses and ordinary people. We don’t have crystal balls, and sometimes we need to take risks that impact people’s lives. If we knew that Hurricane Katrina was coming with compete accuracy, the US would’ve (hopefully) bought the exact right supplies to deal with it. Because uncertainty is part of life, we need to weigh the costs of preparedness for every contingency with the effects of those contingencies, and sometimes that means people will die. This is some of the same reason people don’t wear a suit of armour when leaving the house; reasonable risk and unforeseen consequences are part of life and we judge things based on reasoanability rather than strictly by results. I don’t blame BushJr for Katrina having happened. I don’t even know enough to claim the response was incompetent. Bad things happen, and I assume good faith and competence by default; if, looking back, I see bad judgement leading to bad results, I’ll criticise. Bad results alone arn’t enough.
(This is admittedly easier because I’m not a Democrat or a Republican).
Pat Gunn
October 19th, 2012
1:12 pm
@Tiberius Regarding contraceptives, there are a few people (like Santorum) who have been aiming to reduce or eliminate access to it, but you’re right that flat out elimination of public access to them has not been part of at least anything I’ve seen from Romney’s campaign, and I don’t believe he aims to limit them in that way. Romney is more vulnerable on the issue of insurance and contraception; Romney supported the Blunt amendment, which allows employers to deny contraception as part of insurance plans; that’s an issue.
Del
October 19th, 2012
1:15 pm
Namejacker@1:11pm.
jconservative
October 19th, 2012
1:15 pm
“One thing I thought was clear from Tuesday night’s debate was that none of the questioners sounded all that “undecided”.”
I totally agree with this. There was not an undecided body in the room.
During Crowley’s “fact checking” there were two sets of applause from two different sets of people.
Del
October 19th, 2012
1:22 pm
It takes a real slime ball to come on this blog at 1:11pm steal someones blog handle and post that kind of vulgar trash. What a coward.
Kyle Wingfield
October 19th, 2012
1:22 pm
Del @ 1:22: Yep, there are some disturbingly sick people in this world.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right
October 19th, 2012
1:23 pm
@ Pat Gunn:
Abstract: “No acts of terror”
Specific : “This act of terror in Benghazi “.
Got it?
And whitewashing? Sending out Susan Rice on every Sunday talk show 5 days later to claim spontaneous demonstrations when you were told 24 hours after the attack that it was a planned attack is whitewashing.
breakfastfor2
October 19th, 2012
1:24 pm
and what are the presidential debates for? aren’t their policy positions already known from the manifesto and their websites?
Lambeau
October 19th, 2012
1:27 pm
I think its funny how Dems are pushing so hard for Obamas words the day after the attack to say that he called/implied the attack a planned terrorist attack. That would actually hurt him. Even if he blatantly said “It was a planned terroriest attack” that day, then the question needs to be asked: “Why then after that first response did you continue to say it was a protest caused by a video for two weeks?”. Hes put himself between a rock and a hard place and he can’t escape. At this point he is trying to delay the inevitable. It will come up during the last debate and he will try to have an answer, but either way he wont be able to justify anything.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right
October 19th, 2012
1:28 pm
Pat, don’t get caught up in the liberal misuse of the word “access”. Not paying for something isn’t denying access.
DeborahinAthens
October 19th, 2012
1:29 pm
Hillbilly D, a fact is a fact, not an opinion. The problem with the Repugs for the last 20 years is that they that if they keep repeating the lies over and over, the ding bats that elect them will believe them. Many of these “opinions” come to mind. Cutting taxes creates jobs (fact:starting in 2003 when the Bush tax cuts kicked in, job growth screeched to a halt). There are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq (fact: our intelligence told us there were none, none were found). The sale of oil from Iraq will fund the wars (fact: two unfunded wars have crippled this country and will continue for many years. Now we have Romney with his own brand of invention, pulling numbers out of his hat right and left. Screeching about Obama’s policy in Syria. If Romney is elected, I give us four months before we have boots on the ground in Syria. So, facts are facts. You Repugs have your opinions colored by lies.
Pat Gunn
October 19th, 2012
1:29 pm
@Tiberius I believe, before some conservatives decided to make this a talking point, were you to have given people a transcript or video of what Obama said and asked if he was calling the act terrorism, almost everyone would’ve said yes.
I suspect your characterisation of Rice’s role is incomplete. “Our current best assessment, based on the information that we have at present, is that, in fact, what this began as, it was a spontaneous – not a premeditated – response” (a Susan Rice quote from one of the stories you seem to be talking about) seems plenty nuanced and lighthanded to me, given that stories rarely arrive complete, certain, and fast for real-world events.
BuckeyeInGa
October 19th, 2012
1:30 pm
We need moderation or there would be a lot of talking over each other. We need fact checker(s) at the debate. The cable shows after each debate often present their own “customized” facts.
sailfish
October 19th, 2012
1:30 pm
tiberius
After reading threw some of your comments, I can conclude that you definitely have a massive ego and that your are as blindly partisan as those whom you attempt to dispatch.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right
October 19th, 2012
1:32 pm
Man, I hope the namejacker wasn’t using mine.
I hate when that happens.
resno2
October 19th, 2012
1:32 pm
the media has already proven itself incapable of moderating debates effectively, so how about each candidate choose a member of their staff to ask questions of the opposing candidate? Or better yet, have each VP candidate ask the questions.
MarkV
October 19th, 2012
1:33 pm
“Even if he blatantly said “It was a planned terroriest attack” that day, then the question needs to be asked: “Why then after that first response did you continue to say it was a protest caused by a video for two weeks?”
Except that he did not.
Pat Gunn
October 19th, 2012
1:35 pm
@Lambeau It’s possible that initially it seemed certain to be an attack, then later information came in and caused them to be less certain, then info from the intelligence community came in to confirm the initial assessment. Either way, I would’ve preferred more initial caution (although again, I’m not a Dem). I am willing to assume, without more information, that there are not any actual problems but PR on this; it’s not an easy task to figure out how and when to communicate things with the press when data is always coming in that might in theory overturn past conclusions.
@DeborahinAthens While much of that is fair, Democrats have lied or been incorrect too; if you look at the independent fact-checking sites, they also often declare things Democrats have said to be wrong. Good fact-checking helps everyone. (As an aside, calling Republicans “Repugs” really isn’t the way to convince people to listen to you; in my opinion the less this is a pissing contest, the more room there is for it to be a discussion).
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right
October 19th, 2012
1:36 pm
Pat, your assessment regarding Rice’s comments might be correct if the administration hadn’t been told 24 hours after it occurred that it was a planned attack.
getalife
October 19th, 2012
1:38 pm
Still upset Candy called our mitt’s lie.
I am still upset cons and their failed party refused to unite to show patriotism and resolve to get the terrorists like all Americans on 9/11.
You chose to get our President instead.
This proves the right are terrorist sympathizers.
This is a permanent mark on your record.
It is disgusting.
Lambeau
October 19th, 2012
1:38 pm
Pat: Except it wasnt their best most current assessment based on the information they had as we have recently learned.
MarkV: Keep on telling yourself that. Then why did Rice keep saying it?
Pat Gunn
October 19th, 2012
1:38 pm
@Tiberius If we knew the content and timing and background of all information sources to the Whitehouse on the matter, we could properly judge this. As is, we do not.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right
October 19th, 2012
1:38 pm
I see that MarkV is revising history again through wordsmithing.
Pat Gunn
October 19th, 2012
1:40 pm
@getalife I would not call “the right” or “the left” anything like “terrorist sympathisers”. That’s an ugly accusation built on a twisted interpretation of facts and motives, and will do nothing but inflame the discussion over an entirely non-factual assessment. It’s like you want to make it impossible for discussion. Shame on you.
sailfish
October 19th, 2012
1:41 pm
Let’s split some hairs; acts of terror is equal or not equal to terrorist act? You be the judge-
Lambeau
October 19th, 2012
1:41 pm
Obama (and MarkV) are grasping on to semantics. It’s quite comical.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right
October 19th, 2012
1:42 pm
Pat, you really need to catch up on the testimony in front of Congress.
We DO know what was told, who was told, and when they were told.
Susan Rice either took it on herself to lie, or was coached to lie
getalife
October 19th, 2012
1:43 pm
pat,
What would you call it when they want to get our President after a attack.
Tell the truth pat.
td
October 19th, 2012
1:46 pm
Finn McCool (The System isn’t Broken; It’s Fixed)
October 19th, 2012
12:02 pm
Talk about a stretch. Romney left Bain 10 years ago and has no role in the day to day decisions made there. Yes he is still invested in Bain but so is the CA and IL teachers retirement funds and they have more money invested.
Are you going to say that the CA and IL teacher retirements funds are responsible for outsourcing?
getalife
October 19th, 2012
1:46 pm
Inform yourselves cons:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/19/world/africa/suspect-in-benghazi-attack-scoffs-at-us.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
All the facts are not known yet cons because we have operation there cons.
Try supporting them instead of the terrorists cons.
Pat Gunn
October 19th, 2012
1:46 pm
@Tiberius As far as I can tell, she claims that when she was talking about it, she was using the conclusions of the intelligence community at the time. I don’t see a reason to parse that as lying, and the intelligence community in question is not politically appointed; if I remember my civics classes correctly (was sometime back), the same agencies provide that information, staffed with the same people, regardless of which party controls the Whitehouse at the time.
Pat Gunn
October 19th, 2012
1:48 pm
@getalife I’d say it’s a very motivated attempt to play “gotcha” in election season. Not sympathy for terrorism, just an overly desperate attempt to win. You occasionally see Democrats doing the exact same thing.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right
October 19th, 2012
1:50 pm
Pat, it’s the intelligence community who testified in front of Congress that they knew the next day!
Rice lied. Period.
No nuanced. Lied.
getalife
October 19th, 2012
1:50 pm
pat,
The Dems not after 9/11.
You lie and can’t deal with the truth.
The gop hearing outed the CIA building there too.
Does that bother you pat?
getalife
October 19th, 2012
1:53 pm
They did not lie.
They called it a terrorist attack the next day and blamed the movie to cover all possibilities.
Pat Gunn
October 19th, 2012
1:53 pm
@getalife I’m not sure what you’re claiming when you say “the gop hearing outed the CIA building there too.” – can you clarify or rephrase?
@Tiberius In developing stories with intelligence communities, not all of them are necessarily on the same page, and 24 hours can make a big difference. I think you’re trying too hard to pretend you know what’s going on in those communities and in the WhiteHouse so you can find fault there. We don’t have the information we need to judge this.
getalife
October 19th, 2012
1:57 pm
pat,
I watched the hearing.
They called a point of order to shut down their political hearing because their questions outed the CIA building.
You need to get informed before you call me out pat.
Lambeau
October 19th, 2012
1:59 pm
It’s hilarious how Dems can’t be objective about this Benghazi issue. It doesn’t matter what was said the day after the attack. What matters is for two weeks after the attack, the video was blamed for a “protest” that escalated and killed Americans when Washington knew 24 hours after the attack that there was no protest.
getalife
October 19th, 2012
1:59 pm
mitt freaked out the next day and called our President a terrorist sympathizer but they proved they are the terrorist sympathizers pat.
Pat Gunn
October 19th, 2012
2:10 pm
@Lambeau You’re trying too hard. The actions don’t seem problematic, and it seems reasonable/likely that the intelligence community gave mixed signals for awhile. There would be no political advantage to lying about this anyhow. Our government depends on good information, and in the real world that means our elected people are dependent on the groups providing information to them. Nothing unusual about that, and the provided information will normally happen behind the scenes. Either you claim something fishy is going on without really knowing, or you generally assume that they’re generally working with the best info they have.
Pat Gunn
October 19th, 2012
2:14 pm
Was a fun discussion; I need to focus on other things. If anyone’s interested, I’m very googlable. If not, it was nice chatting with you all. Be well.
MarkV
October 19th, 2012
2:15 pm
Lambeau has “the courage” to accuse the president of lying, but is not man enough to prove his accusatiobn.
Dusty
October 19th, 2012
2:15 pm
Well, did anyone see Ramirez great cartoon Thursday n the print AJC? He traced the “terrorist Libya story” all the way from the president’s desk. around the corner, across the street, down the road and then to Hillary’s desk for blame. The trouble I have with all this is the concern seems to be over what somebody said, not over the murdered Americans..
Benghazi was another facet of the war on terror which Bush recognied early on and made every effort possible to fight it. Today we still fight the war on terror with some evidence that the Middle East may finally realize what they are producing. Libya has announced the capture of the leader of the Benghazi incident. Pakistan is outraged over the Taliban shooting of a fouteen year old female, shot because she did not want to be an ignorant slave in their society and said so.
There are a few lights on the horizon but not very many.
Brandt Hardin
October 19th, 2012
2:23 pm
There has to be a moderator for follow up and to control the candidates. Candy did a great job. All the negativity comes from the sore losers- the talking heads guarding the inhabitants of Bullsh*t Mountain from rejoining the world of the sane. Fox News is a propaganda machine which dumbs down America by the day through disinformation and their slanted agendas. See the whole gang of anchors spewing forth feces from their mouths in my visual homage to the network on my artist’s blog at http://dregstudiosart.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-fox-news-scylla-guardian-of-bullsht.html
getalife
October 19th, 2012
2:28 pm
“obl determined to strike”,
w did nothing on Libya.
getalife
October 19th, 2012
2:30 pm
We will get to see patreaus pass out again in another hearing if the gop want to find out why the intell failed.
I doubt they do because they want to get the President not the terrorists.
sailfish
October 19th, 2012
2:31 pm
I see there were no takers on the hair splitting of terror; you all need some bigger fish to fry…um I’m mean more mountains rather than molehills-
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
October 19th, 2012
2:33 pm
For that matter, you could put a tape recorder in place of the dummycrat candidate. Whenever it’s their turn to respond, just mash play and listen to all the wore out talking points over and over again.
No different than obozo, well, a lot fewer gaffes with the machine.
Dusty
October 19th, 2012
2:36 pm
getalife
Pardon my French but please “ferme la bouch”!
Bush rallied the troops and everybody else after 9/11.
MarkV
October 19th, 2012
2:38 pm
Dusty @2:15 pm
Dusty,
You are right about the troubles in the world, and one could add a list of other places and issues, all more important than how quickly the Administration was getting the right information about one incident and related it to the public.
Dusty
October 19th, 2012
2:39 pm
getalife
You will see all of us pass out
If you ever get around to telling the truth.
getalife
October 19th, 2012
2:39 pm
Dusty,
Yes, we ll united after 9/11 the first time.
The second you focused on getting the President.
I remember when you cons were very patriotic.
The West tried to “rehab” daffy then we helped kill him.
The militias that got daffy are now ruling Libya.
Dusty
October 19th, 2012
2:41 pm
Mark V
Don’t agree with me. Ruins my day.
sailfish
October 19th, 2012
2:42 pm
**Bush rallied the troops and everybody else after 9/11**
Then blew it all by going into iraq; the big winner? Iran.
Dusty
October 19th, 2012
2:43 pm
getalife,
I thought you were daffy. To whom are you referring?
Matz
October 19th, 2012
2:43 pm
Um…. Is it a debate — or even remotely informative — when candidates are allowed to simply shout each other down with zero accountability for content?
I appreciate that Ms. Crowley stopped the repetitive shouting of a lie, but I can totally see why tightie righties would prefer the bully method to the fact-check method of selecting a national leader. May the biggest BULLY win! All hail our new BULLY in Chief!
Gross. Seriously. You want me to puke all over this page, don’t you?
getalife
October 19th, 2012
2:44 pm
“Then blew it all by going into iraq; the big winner? Iran”
Then the global economy collapsed..
getalife
October 19th, 2012
2:45 pm
Dusty,
The ex kook dictator in Libya silly.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
2:46 pm
sailfish, nobody bit on your question because it was already answered.
Abstract: “No acts of terror”
Specific: “This act of terror in Benghazi”
These are the facts based on testimony in front of Congress, and they are not in dispute.
Someone at State reduced the security requirements for the Libyan mission. That person has NOT been identified.
No one in the administration (or at State specifically) thought it might be a good idea to beef up security at our embassies in Muslim countries on the anniversary of 9/11.
The Pelosi myth about the GOP not funding security was refuted by the administration’s own witness.
Administration intelligence sources knew within 24 hours of the attack that it wasn’t the result of a demonstration, but was coordinated and planned, and hat someone was told as such. That person has not been identified as yet, either.
If Romney makes this case Monday, and the President stays with the “I’m offended” line, you might be able to see a path where Obama might get re-elected. But if he obfuscates, lies or simply doesn’t take outright responsibility for these failures I outlined above, he’s toast.
Tealiban Party
October 19th, 2012
2:46 pm
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 19th, 2012
12:25 pm
Can you imagine if Obama had a black son and he had said something like this ? Tagg Romney was asked how it felt when he heard “the president of the United States call your dad a liar.” “Jump out of your seat and you want to rush down to the stage and take a swing at him,” Tagg answered. The outrage from the right would have been enormous.
It would have been fun to see Obama beat down Tagg’s prissy behind on national TV.
getalife
October 19th, 2012
2:50 pm
Our President will tear mitt a new one again on Libya
He will win the last debate.
mitt is not a leader.
If he is a man, he should apologize to our President for playing politics with a attack.
Dusty
October 19th, 2012
2:51 pm
sailfish,
I see you tolerate dictators and have no worries if they have wmds.
When the largest and most thorough investigative systems in the world reports a Middle east dictator who hates the USA has the weapons to kill thousands if not millions of Americans, as president you would sit back and have a beer and say “Forget it!”???
You probably would. It takes a strong personality to make tough decisions. Bush could do it.
sailfish
October 19th, 2012
2:55 pm
tiberius
Ok, so we have the president say that this act of terror will not stand and that the perpetrators will be caught and brought to justice, what more would your like him to do or say less than 24 hours after the fact?
As to the decreased security, that is an issue and for the record we had not had any situations for the previous 10 years regarding 9-11. Everything about the way this is being played out is about the politics. It is a dangerous, unpredictable world out there and situations will occur, all we can do is investigate, get the facts, and correct the problem.
Dusty
October 19th, 2012
2:56 pm
getalife
You should apologize to us for dropping mindless propaganda on innocent blog victims.
getalife
October 19th, 2012
2:57 pm
saddam was bluffing to keep Iran from attacking.
Now Iran and Iraq are allies and control most of the oil.
The 2 trillion military increase for mitt means more war probably with Iran.
He hired the neocons so we will get another failed occupation.
.
getalife
October 19th, 2012
2:58 pm
Dusty,
I am not sorry you can’t handle the truth
That is your problem.
sailfish
October 19th, 2012
2:59 pm
“I see you tolerate dictators and have no worries if they have wmds.”
You lose any credibility for debate – newsflash – no wmd were found! They just wanted him out and the cost in blood and treasure was not worth it because saddam was boxed in and impotent, ask colin powell.
getalife
October 19th, 2012
3:00 pm
“It is a dangerous, unpredictable world out there and situations will occur, all we can do is investigate, get the facts, and correct the problem.”
The gop decided to play politics to get our President.
Who am I?
October 19th, 2012
3:03 pm
I’ve got Romnesia!
getalife
October 19th, 2012
3:04 pm
“I’ve got Romnesia!”
sailfish
October 19th, 2012
3:06 pm
“You probably would. It takes a strong personality to make tough decisions. Bush could do it.”
One last thing, I’d rather have a president that can THINK situations through with all the far reaching implications of a decision, then a trigger happy shoot from the hip type of leader, there are no do overs in reality.
southpaw
October 19th, 2012
3:07 pm
Tealiban Party October 19th, 2012 2:46 pm
It would have been fun to see Obama beat down Tagg’s prissy behind on national TV.
————————————————-
I acted better than your suggestion for President Obama when I was in the FIFTH EVERLOVIN’ GRADE. Another guy was mad at me and wanted to throw some punches my way. I got behind him and pinned his arms to his sides until he cooled down. Do you really believe the President is either too weak or too violent to do something similar, and would have to resort to fisticuffs?
Dusty
October 19th, 2012
3:07 pm
sailfish
All politics in Libya? Maybe the after math of that terrible action ’causes questions, but my understanding is that extra security was requested some weeks before the incident because of reports received there by our representatives. None was given. Seems to me that should be investigated. It was a cry for help that was not given by this administration.
Dusty
October 19th, 2012
3:14 pm
sailfish,
“a trigger happy shoot from the hip” type of president? Are you referring to Bush? He conferred with the prime minister of UK and the Congress of the USA before he made any moves toward Iraq. They alll confirmed and agreed that the reports of wmds were tragedy in the making and agreed with Bush’s suggestions..
Are you in the habit of ignoring facts or your imagination runs wild?
WOW
October 19th, 2012
3:19 pm
It is correct that additional security was requested. It is also correct that during the hearings, it was stated that extra security probably would not have repelled the attack.
How ironic that the people talking about objectivity never mention that part of the testimony
Coincidence?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
3:21 pm
“what more would your like him to do or say less than 24 hours after the fact?”
First, cancel his political activities for the next 48 hours. That gives him time to find out exactly what happened by listening to his people. Just saw scrolled across Fox that the CIA station chief reported that it was a deliberate attack within 24 hours of it happening. It also gives him ime to actually act like a Commander-in-Chief.
Second, stop the nonsense about the video causing it.
Third, don’t send his U.N. Ambassador out on the Sunday talk circuit with the lie.
If he had simply stopped playing at being President instead of acting like one, none of this would have occurred and Romney wouldn’t have a political club to beat him over the head with. If Romney does end up winning this election, there will be two moments that made that happen; the first debate, where people finally got to see that Mitt Romney wasn’t the guy that the campaign and media portrayed and started thinking he could be President, and this issue, where people are finally waking up to the fact that Obama really shouldn’t be President.
catlady
October 19th, 2012
3:25 pm
How should we handle debates? Attach a shocker to each candidate, and if they lie, run out of time, or any other breach, shock the **** out of them! It would be better entertainment, and they might be more careful to speak the truth.
Hillbilly D
October 19th, 2012
3:27 pm
You Repugs have your opinions colored by lies.
I reckon since I’m on record here, many times, saying that party politics disgust me, that sentence doesn’t apply to me. In my perfect world, there’d be no parties. Candidates wouldn’t have a label to hide behind.
catlady
October 19th, 2012
3:27 pm
Then, if they continue, shock their family members!
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 19th, 2012
3:34 pm
This is how you play when your party is on its way to the grave:
A man originally reported to have been working for the Republican Party of Virginia was arrested by the Rockingham County, VA Sheriff’s office on Thursday and charged with attempting to destroy voter registration forms by tossing them into a dumpster behind a shopping center in Harrisonburg, VA.
http://www.salon.com/2012/10/19/gop_voter_registration_scandal_widens/
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 19th, 2012
3:37 pm
Bill Clinton still wants to know where those binders come from….
Hillbilly D
October 19th, 2012
3:37 pm
Speaking of voter fraud……
http://www.walb.com/story/19834587/judge-orders-new
Hillbilly D
October 19th, 2012
3:39 pm
In my opinion, nobody can “multi-task”. The brain can only hold one thought at a time. Let’s saying you’re reading and watching TV. You may read a few seconds, look at the TV a few, and on and on but you can’t do both, in the same instant.
@@
October 19th, 2012
3:40 pm
No moderators? I dunno…I’m not sure there’s enough self-control to pull that off. Cutting off their microphones could work but then we’d be asking who controls the microphone.
I really didn’t have a problem with the moderators. I think Crowley just panicked and yes, stepped out of line.
Working with special needs children, I use a timer quite frequently. It helps if they, themselves, are allowed to set it. I have to adjust when they’re not looking. It allows them to become part of the disciplinary process. It works.
When things get out of control, standing up seems to bring order. Don’t know why that works but it does. Maybe the moderators could stand up when they’re looking to bring order to the debate?
Dusty
October 19th, 2012
3:40 pm
sailfish,
I know they found no wmds in Iraq. That does not change the inlelligence reports which were believable to the UK prime minister, the Congress of the USA and the president.
The Obama admnistration had reports that a dangerous situation was developing in Libya. NOthing was done about it. Nothing!
Bush had reports that a dangerous situation was developing. He did somethng about it.
You decide. Do you sit on your hands and do nothing? Do you get reports of danger and do something? You can’t be tough on one president and easy on the other. Make up your mind.
Dusty
October 19th, 2012
3:45 pm
Dear Hillbilly D,
Are you sure you can’t eat, drink and be merry at the same time?
I think so.
Del
October 19th, 2012
3:47 pm
It’s going to be very difficult for Obama to dink and dunk his way through Monday’s debate on the subject of Libya, which will surely come up. I look for him to employ a defense of strong offense and that carry’s a lot of risk. If he employs the Biden smiley faced buffoon tactic, he’ll appear insensitive to the deaths of four Americans. If he feigns outrage over the suggestion that his White House and State Department attempted a coverup he could get into trouble because there’s been too much evidence that points to a probable coverup attempt. If Romney comes armed with that evidence it would be hard for the president to effectively dodge. The libs on here today are kidding themselves if they believe this issue only involves Obama’s word choice in the Rose Garden. The Benghazi attack is far more complicated and Obama doesn’t have the facts on his side.
MarkV
October 19th, 2012
3:49 pm
Dusty @2:41 pm
Thank you for showing me the errors of my ways.
Hillbilly D
October 19th, 2012
3:51 pm
Are you sure you can’t eat, drink and be merry at the same time?
I can’t even eat and drink at the same time. I’d get choked.
WOW
October 19th, 2012
3:51 pm
Del
Does Romney or yourself have all the facts?
I’m with you that it needs to be investigated, as is being done, but you have no more facts than anyone on this blog.
You talk about being objective, yet you haven’t mentioned once that the same guy who said additional security was denied also said that it probably would not have made a difference.
You did watch the hearings as you claim, correct?
MarkV
October 19th, 2012
3:51 pm
“…extra security was requested some weeks before the incident because of reports received there by our representatives. None was given. Seems to me that should be investigated.”
It is good to see Dusty agreeing with President Obama.
Dusty
October 19th, 2012
3:52 pm
WOW
You also missed a key word. The report said that in all PROBABILITY, more help would not have made a difference.in Be ghazi.
You do know that PROBABILITY suggests guessing. You and I can do that.
I don’t know about you, but if I am in trouble, I prefer more assistance than none and that is not guessing.
WOW
October 19th, 2012
3:52 pm
For the record, politicians and both parties play bs politics with any given issue, so I have no problem with Republicans demanding real answers as well as playing politics.
It is just funny reading your “objective” take, yet being selective in terms of your narrative of the hearing
We're not fixed and all Obama wants to do is cry
October 19th, 2012
3:54 pm
Bill Clinton: Romney’s Argument Is True, Obama Hasn’t Fixed Country
Clinton: Gov. Romney’s argument is, ‘We’re not fixed, so fire him, and put me in.’ It is true, we’re not fixed. When President Obama looked into the eyes of that man who said in the debate, ‘I had so much hope four years ago, and I don’t now,” I thought he was going to cry. Because he knows that it’s not fixed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bIyBrp014M
WOW
October 19th, 2012
3:55 pm
Dusty
That is not your call to make, even though you are welcome to opine like anyone else. Decisions are made all the time based on probabilities. What world do you live in?
Do we nuke NK, China, Russia today because their is a “probability” they could nuke the US or US interests because they have nuke capability?
Dusty
October 19th, 2012
3:56 pm
Any police chief was investigate why a cry for help was not answered.by officers. Sounds like routine procedure in any such situation.
Common Sense
October 19th, 2012
3:59 pm
It’s important to see how the person would act behind closed doors as much as in front of a crowd.
We do need to know the true character, not just the one painted by the media puppets.
And if they cannot handle a fellow American one on one, how will they handle international stress?
Pout? Temper Tantrum? Scholarly?
We need to know.
We're not fixed and all Obama wants to do is cry
October 19th, 2012
4:03 pm
The truth about oil and gas production on public land
Is Gov. Mitt Romney telling the truth when he says oil and gas production is down on public land?
Contrary to President Obama’s assertions, Romney’s telling the truth when he says, “Production of oil on public land is down 14 percent and production of gas on public land is down 9 percent.”
That’s because energy production on federal lands is down compared to 2010, according to the Energy Information Administration. But it is still higher than where production stood under President George W. Bush. Compared to the last three years of the previous administration, according to EIA, there have been 241 million more barrels of oil produced from public lands in Obama’s first three years.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/wp/2012/10/16/the-truth-about-oil-and-gas-production-on-public-land/
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
4:05 pm
“You talk about being objective, yet you haven’t mentioned once that the same guy who said additional security was denied also said that it probably would not have made a difference.”
WOW, there is a HUGE difference between “repelling” an attack, and “buying time to escape”.
Oh, and rocker science, I’ve checked my ballot and Bush doesn’t appear anywhere on it. If you want to campaign in the past like Obama, that’s fine. Just know it won’t do a damned bit of good.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
4:07 pm
“Look at all of the knee-jerk chicken hawks on here! I’ll bet none of them will be volunteering for service anytime soon, if ever at all.”
Did you, rocket science?
‘Cause many of us on here have.
WOW
October 19th, 2012
4:08 pm
Tiberius
Was that talk of escape mentioned anywhere in the testimony?
I am not saying it isn’t. I could have missed it
skipper
October 19th, 2012
4:09 pm
Somebody forgot Crowley’s Reese-Cups………she was delirious.
Road Scholar
October 19th, 2012
4:14 pm
I agree with your comments, Kyle, about the last moderator, but we need a moderator since most politicians are like the energizer bunny and can talk, and talk, and…
While it was reported that Pres Obama spoke for 4 minutes longer, Romney was more rabid and spoke rapidly.I didn’t say they answered the questions. The moderator should have held them staunchly to the 2 minute response time AGREED TO AS TERMS OF THE DEBATE BY BOTH PARTIES. At the end of 2 minutes, the moderator should have told the responder “Thank You” and recognize the other debater. If the responder said (and it was numerous times) that “this is important” as grounds to continue, the moderator should have responded” Well if it so important , why didn’t you get it out sooner in the 2 minute time frame”
There was so much BS thrown by both men that either did not answer the question at hand, or refereed to a previous question that was already left in the dust( one up-man-ship), or had an anecdotal story trying to show their “human side”, they could have answered the question more completely and concisely.
I’m for a stronger moderator to follow the rules agreed upon, and to call a person out for not answering the question asked.That is one thing wrong with this country…everyone trying to outdo the other, without providing value. Not listening to each other…instead formulating your response to what you want to say versus what was asked.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
4:14 pm
“Was that talk of escape mentioned anywhere in the testimony?”
Don’t know, but I am simply pointing out that some people cover their a$$es by holding up a best case scenario (repelling an attack), when a sufficient, but lesser one (buying time to escape) might have still saved the lives of 4 Americans.
Del
October 19th, 2012
4:15 pm
WOW,
Yes I did watch the hearings and what Nordstrom said was that he didn’t think additional security would have prevented an attack but additional security obviously could have stopped it or at least held it off until a reaction force could arrive. You got that from either the NYT’s article or a quote from it where they tried to spin Nordstrom’s comment and make it appear that he didn’t see any failure where the opposite was true, if you heard his entire testimony. There have plenty of facts that have come out over this past month. Saying that I don’t have any facts only tells me that you haven’t been paying attention.
Bob Fliegel
October 19th, 2012
4:18 pm
I believe a moderator is necessary, but think it should be a non-journalist. Two alternatives come to mind: either a professional debate judge (like those who judge university debate team tournaments) or a lawyer/law prof skilled at the Socratic method. Re the latter, retired Harvard Law prof Arthur Miller, renown for his prowess at interrogating adversarial panel participants, would be perfect.
WOW
October 19th, 2012
4:19 pm
Del
Actually, it is his exact quote. Would you like to see it or can google be your guide?
We're not fixed and all Obama wants to do is cry
October 19th, 2012
4:19 pm
Crowley Interrupts Romney 28 Times, Obama Just 9
Candy Crowley, who was suspected of being one more liberal moderator in the tank for Barack Obama, was more than just in the tank for him; she dove in and sucked all the water out for him so he could pretend he walked on water.
In the first presidential debate, Jim Lehrer, no slouch at shilling for the Democratic Party, interrupted Mitt Romney 15 times and Barack Obama only five.
Crowley made Lehrer look like an amateur. She interrupted Obama nine times, (although four of those were when he wouldn’t respect the time limit when discussing assault weapons; he went over his time limit all night long), but when it came to Mitt Romney, she was utterly beyond the pale.
Crowley interrupted Romney 28 times. 28 times. Her desperation to keep Romney from scoring points was so patently obvious that it wasn’t really a surprise when she had her infamous moment: the moment when she interrupted and falsely claimed Romney was incorrect in accusing Obama of refusing to call the Benghazi attack an act of terror.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/10/17/Crowley-interrupts-28-times-Romney
getalife
October 19th, 2012
4:19 pm
The look on mitt’s face when he realized he got busted lying was a classic.
mitt does not stand a chance in the last debate.
A rookie get pushed around by neocons is another w disaster.
Road Scholar
October 19th, 2012
4:20 pm
We’re not fixed…: Do you own a house? Is it ever fixed? Don’t things pop up that are not anticipated…some good…mostly bad? That is why they call homes “the money pit”.
Now do things change in reality? Weekly? Daily? Hourly? So with change being constant, and variable in intensity…do YOU ever have everything fixed?
Add to it a wife (House) telling you how to do it- a wife that always contradicts you- and just how fast do you make that fix or change?
WOW
October 19th, 2012
4:22 pm
Del
Going after the administration for what they said, when they knew what is more than fair game, however it is not a coincidence that in your numerous post on this issue you fail to mention that part of the testimomy
We're not fixed and all Obama wants to do is cry
October 19th, 2012
4:25 pm
Bob Beckel On Romney Poll Lead: ‘It’s Over’
On Fox News’ “The Five”, former Democratic strategist Bob Beckel sounded defeated when reflecting on today’s Gallup poll showing Mitt Romney taking a 52-46 percent lead over Barack Obama nationally. “It’s over. If these numbers are true, it’s over,” Beckel said.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4emiu81OTdU
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
4:25 pm
“What do you mean Bush isn’t there?”
Exactly what I said.
“Romney has hired just about all of Bush’s advisers and he’s even bought Billy Graham’s support, same as Bush.”
“Bought” Graham’s support, rocket? Really? Provide proof.
And if you haven’t figured it out by now, Romney is his own man, with different polices (if you take the time to listen to them or read them.
“He’s pushing trickle down economics, same as Bush.”
Actually, he’s not.
“Karl Rove and the Koch brothers are pulling the strings, same as Bush”
Nope. Not even close, but keep deluding yourself.
“If you’ve already seen the ballot, that means you have already voted. ”
Nope. So you’re wrong again, rocket.
But at least you’re consistently wrong.
Dusty
October 19th, 2012
4:25 pm
WOW
PROBABILITY is still guesses whether you use it in finance, politics or foreign policy. Better than guessing, maybe, but still open to doubt. I
.
Don’t nuke anybody that hasn’t nuked you. Reliable studies show that is the best unless you have strong evidence to prove otherwise. Ask the Japanese.
I’d better go cook those pork chiops because there is a probability that somone will be hungry tonight!!!!! Just a guess but they are already checking out the kitchen. Attack is coming!!
. . .
Don't Tread
October 19th, 2012
4:25 pm
Do we need moderators in presidential debates?
Easy answer: Yes, unbiased ones.
We're not fixed and all Obama wants to do is cry
October 19th, 2012
4:26 pm
Do liberals own a brain?
WOW
October 19th, 2012
4:27 pm
Lamb rejected allegations from Republican lawmakers, supported by Lt. Col. Andrew Wood, former head of a 16-member U.S. military team that helped protect the embassy in Tripoli, that an extension of Wood’s mission could have made a difference during the attack.
“It would not have made any difference in Benghazi,” Lamb said, pointing out that Wood’s team was based in Tripoli and spent nearly all of its time there.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
4:27 pm
Road, the difference here is when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.
Obama recognized the hole, but kept digging anyway.
And wants to dig even more in the next 4 years.
Del
October 19th, 2012
4:28 pm
WOW,
Please…Nordstrom did not say that additional security would not have prevented the breach and resultant murders of our personnel. Saying that additional security personnel probably would not have prevented the planned attack is meaningless and only meant as a spin attempt. If you watched and listened to Nordstrom’s testimony you would know that he was very critical of the administration.
WOW
October 19th, 2012
4:30 pm
Dusty
Keep flailing. You can read the testimony if you like and Del can keep trying to say I have a spin of a quote. No, I have the actual quote but it is alright. He flails all the time
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57529888/house-probes-security-leading-up-to-libya-attack/?tag=mncol;lst;4
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
4:30 pm
“It would not have made any difference in Benghazi,” Lamb said, pointing out that Wood’s team was based in Tripoli and spent nearly all of its time there.”
WOW, effective security is supposed to protect the PERSONNEL first, then the buildings. If security wasn’t sufficient for the Ambassador’s travels, you make it so or he doesn’t travel.
You’re really becoming embarrassing.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
4:31 pm
“Romney has already blown his chances at getting the women vote”
And yet, Gallup has him even with Obama with women.
Care to be wrong some more, rocket science?
MarkV
October 19th, 2012
4:33 pm
Romney made an ass of himself when he disputed that Obama had called the attack on the consulate in Benghazi an act of terror. Those who deny it just make the same of themselves.
Del
October 19th, 2012
4:33 pm
WOW,
You’re only making yourself appear uninformed and a bit foolish. The prior attacks are documented, the requests for additional security is documented, the intelligence briefings are documented and what the White House along with State Department said, did and did not do is documented.
WOW
October 19th, 2012
4:33 pm
Dusty
14th or 15th paragraph down.
Keep flailing. If it wasn’t for talking points you would have anything to say.
I already mentioned that there are several things that is more than fair game to go after the administration on, but it is disingenuous to not mention that particular part of the testimony……. That is unless you are just on a witch hunt
Dusty, let facts be your friend. You have lived a long life overlooking them. It is not too late to start.
Have a awesome weekend
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
4:33 pm
Oh, and rocket science?
I must have missed your answer about your military service, since you called out others for possibly not serving themselves.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
4:36 pm
“Tib: so you concede that you are in fact a bitter lonely person who has not seen the ballot? ”
No, I’m actually a very happy, healthy voluntarily early-retired guy with a wonderful wife of 28 years and counting.
And while I have seen the ballot, I have not voted as yet.
Care to be wrong some more, rocket science?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
4:37 pm
“Romney made an ass of himself when he disputed that Obama had called the attack on the consulate in Benghazi an act of terror.”
Fortunately, only an opinion of one.
WOW
October 19th, 2012
4:38 pm
Del
Did I say he wasn’t critical? Did I say there was not things that should be asked? Did I say that there should not be an investigation?
You seem to be good at making assertions and putting the words in other’s mouths that you want them to have said. It will not work here. Try with someone else
Take off your partisan bs classes for a minute.
It is not all left or right…………………….. Unless you are just a simpleton
But ignorance can be bliss and if that is you; enjoy it for all it is worth.
Have an awesome weekend
And I’m gone
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
4:39 pm
“You mean the same Gallup poll that was taken before the second debate? ”
Uh, rocket science?
Gallup is a rolling 7-day poll.
Try educating yourself before you come back. I’ll even thank you for your service once you provide information that you actually served.
Del
October 19th, 2012
4:39 pm
WOW, did you watch and listen to the testimony? It sounds like you’re depending on stories from CBS and the A/P.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 19th, 2012
4:41 pm
Late to the party, but my thoughts on moderator/no moderator.
I haven’t seen many politicians, maybe silent Cal Coolidge and he was before my time, that could ever shut up on their own and stay on the subject, while holding a microphone, so we need a moderator.
In football when they play bowl games between the SEC and Big Ten, the officials are selected from conferences other than those two. We need to do the same in America. The press are mostly partisan, and academia is far left, so where do we turn. I suggest someone, who doesn’t have a dog in the fight, like Tony Blair or the Prime Minister of Canada.
They command enough respect to make the candidates obey the rules. Where do they get the questions. Select a panel of columnist, 5 from each side, and have them submit 10 questions each. Take Tiberius’ lottery idea, number the questions and have them selected by lottery.
The key is that you have to select a foreigner as the debate moderator, anyone else is partisan.
MrLiberty
October 19th, 2012
4:43 pm
Only one party was represented on stage at all of the debates – the warfare/welfare party of big government. How about a vibrant second party for this country. When both candidates fundamentally agree on every major issue, the voters have no real choice. Whoever wins, Goldman Sachs wins and the american people lose.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
4:49 pm
“When both candidates fundamentally agree on every major issue, the voters have no real choice.”
Clearly, the dumbest post of the day.
And that’s going some based on the players here.
Paulistas – Welcome to Fantasy Island!
Del
October 19th, 2012
4:50 pm
Wow, Wow’s running off and not answering my 4:39 question. He like most of the libs posting on here get from left wing Web sites or the MSM what they then construe as facts and regurgitate this spin cycle information as proven facts. Oh well same story, same song, same dance steps
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 19th, 2012
4:53 pm
Romney made an ass of himself when he disputed that Obama had called the attack on the consulate in Benghazi an act of terror.
Nonsensical statement Mark, he didn’t specifically call the attack on the Consulate an act of terror. Spin it any way you like. He used the word terror and that is what Crowley said in the debate, but he didn’t call it an act of terror. Moreover, if you read the last paragraph of his statement and he was implying it was the result of the stupid video.
Obama made an ass of himself implying that he called it an act of terror, when he didn’t. He lied for 14 or more days. Has he ever himself personally referred to it as an act of terror. I know that Carney finally admitted it weeks later, but has Obama. The man who would not allow his regime to use the term “War on Terror”, or who insists the terrorist act at Ft Hood was workplace violence is dishonest.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
4:55 pm
Everybody as some allegiance to one side or another, Del, but these libs just have no grounding in reality.
They’re shocked that their decision four yeas ago hasn’t done much to advance their cause or improve this country, and they’re frightened that once America sees someone effective, and who gets things done, their make-believe world where everything will be handed to them crumbles to dust.
They’re not ready for personal responsibility just yet, and they’re scared to death of the prospect.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 19th, 2012
4:55 pm
The shooting outside the recruiting station is Little Rock was also a terrorist attack, by a wannabe, who went there looking to shoot some soldiers. The Obama regime has never called that an act of terror either.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
4:56 pm
Thank you for your service, rocket science.
Too bad you took a wrong turn somewhere after that service.
Kyle Wingfield
October 19th, 2012
4:59 pm
Ah, Gravy Train/rocket science, I see you took advantage of my being out of the office for a bit this afternoon. And you thought you were being so clever…
cc
October 19th, 2012
5:03 pm
This is the best ad of the year, and no moderator is needed!
http://thehayride.com/2012/09/maybe-the-best-ad-of-the-political-season-so-far/?utm_source=Nooner%2c+9-5-12&utm_campaign=Nooner+1-25-12&utm_medium=email
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 19th, 2012
5:04 pm
Tib
Now that we know Rocket Science was actually Gravy Stain, do you really think he was a Marine. I think he was at the library, since Kyle had blocked his IP address. He is a persistent ##, you will have to give him that. Maybe he is on the DNC payroll.
Del
October 19th, 2012
5:05 pm
Hard to envision how an 8th. and I Street Marine can claim credibility in discerning that plutocrats are the root influence over Romney’s political policies. Oh well I was just a grunt.
curious
October 19th, 2012
5:06 pm
Republicans are the true Socialists!
Wealth in the hands of a few and then there’s everyone else.
cc
October 19th, 2012
5:09 pm
Del, if gravy stain was a Marine, I’m an astronaut!
Del
October 19th, 2012
5:15 pm
cc,
Those guys that come over here from the left blog with different handles are really a hoot. I’m sure the closest gravy brain ever got to the Marine Corps was watching a recruiting ad on television.
cc
October 19th, 2012
5:24 pm
Del, I believe I would very much like to see him report for basic at Paris Island! He would be a DI’s nightmare!
MarkV
October 19th, 2012
5:27 pm
Rafe Hollister @ 4:53 pm
“Nonsensical statement Mark, he didn’t specifically call the attack on the Consulate an act of terror. Obama made an ass of himself implying that he called it an act of terror, when he didn’t. “
From the Rose Garden speech by the President: (same paragraph, consecutive sentences):
“No acts of terror will ever shake the resolve of this great nation, alter that character, or eclipse the light of the values that we stand for. Today we mourn four more Americans who represent the very best of the United States of America. We will not waver in our commitment to see that justice is done for this terrible act. And make no mistake, justice will be done.”
“He lied for 14 or more days.”
Ok, Rafe, I am giving you the same challenge I gave Lambeau, and which he failed to answer: You are accusing the President of lying. So present the evidence, an Obama’s quote, which was a lie. If you don’t I will call you a liar.
Gallup. Are you sure?
October 19th, 2012
5:28 pm
Gallup Performs Poorly When Out of Consensus
Usually, when a poll is an outlier relative to the consensus, its results turn out badly.
You do not need to look any further than Gallup’s track record over the past two election cycles to find a demonstration of this.
In 2008, the Gallup poll put Mr. Obama 11 points ahead of John McCain on the eve of that November’s election.
That was tied for Mr. Obama’s largest projected margin of victory among any of the 15 or so national polls that were released just in advance of the election. The average of polls put Mr. Obama up by about seven points.
The average did a good job; Mr. Obama won the popular vote by seven points. The Gallup poll had a four-point miss, however.
In 2010, Gallup put Republicans ahead by 15 points on the national Congressional ballot, higher than other polling firms, which put Republicans an average of eight or nine points ahead instead.
In fact, Republicans won the popular vote for the United States House by about seven percentage points — fairly close to the average of polls, but representing another big miss for Gallup.
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/18/gallup-vs-the-world/#more-36284
gm
October 19th, 2012
5:35 pm
Amazing, 40 years of debates and no one complained about Moderators, now once again with the first African American President, standards now should change, these right wing jobs are showing who they really are.
These people are a disgrace to all Americans, these people can not wait for Mitt to kill their sons in war, while his golden boy sons sit on the beaches and will never wear a uniform, no party can be this stupid.
MarkV
October 19th, 2012
5:39 pm
Rafe Hollister @ 4:53 pm: “Moreover, if you read the last paragraph of his statement and he was implying it was the result of the stupid video.”
Last paragraphS (to be fair) of President’s statement in the Rose Garden:
“But we also know that the lives these Americans led stand in stark contrast to those of their attackers. These four Americans stood up for freedom and human dignity. They should give every American great pride in the country that they served, and the hope that our flag represents to people around the globe who also yearn to live in freedom and with dignity.
We grieve with their families, but let us carry on their memory, and let us continue their work of seeking a stronger America and a better world for all of our children.
Thank you. May God bless the memory of those we lost and may God bless the United States of America.”
Rafe Hollister does not even know what he is talking about.
gm
October 19th, 2012
5:39 pm
3 generations of Romneys not one has ever served this country, at least Obama had grandfather who served, every veteran should be outraged, 5 sons not one has ever put on any type of military, had this been a Dem, scum bags like Rush Limbaugh and Hannity would have been running a 24 hour cycle with low viewers fox.
Kyle Wingfield
October 19th, 2012
5:39 pm
Are You Sure @ 5:28: That was too long an excerpt of someone else’s work, so I trimmed it back a bit.
Gallup. Are you sure?
October 19th, 2012
5:44 pm
Kyle
No problem. I add the link because I knew it was long.
Just showing that in the last several elections, regardless of party, Gallup has a tendency to overstate their numbers.
Of course since we are not dealing with an exact science, Gallup could be the one that is correct and the others which seem to be close could be incorrect.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 19th, 2012
5:59 pm
MarkV, you need to go back to school.
Obama and his administration REPEATEDLY told us it was a result of a demonstration, when 24 hours after the fact they knew it was not. They sent Susan Rice out on the Sunday talk show circuit to say “based on the best intelligence we have now” the very same thing, when they KNEW it wasn’t a demonstration gone bad.
They lied, MarkV, and no amount of wordsmithing by you, r anyone else, can cover that FACT up.
LeRoi2
October 19th, 2012
6:01 pm
I cannot get over these 1 dimensional posters on here. It is impossible for the most part to have a conversation with any of them. The leftist just ape DNC talking points, all day long, over and over again. I learned a long time ago, presenting facts to these people is a waste of time, they just deny them, or argue for hours over insignificant items. The only thing that make wake them up is when on the morning of November 7, the worst president in the history of this republic has been repudiated by 55% of the electorate. Even when their lives improve by showing that clown the door, they wont admit it.
LeRoi2
October 19th, 2012
6:03 pm
MarkV, they either lied, or Obama is the most incompetent fool to ever be president. I am comfortable with either assessment, its just splitting hairs, as far as I am concerned.
cc
October 19th, 2012
6:03 pm
MarkV:
You accidentally omitted this from your comment:
“Since our founding, the United States has been a nation that respects all faiths. We reject all efforts to denigrate the religious beliefs of others. But there is absolutely no justification to this type of senseless violence. None. The world must stand together to unequivocally reject these brutal acts.”
It would appear to the rational person that Obama references the video in these remarks.
How do you explain the advertisements paid for by the U.S. and aired in the Middle East denouncing this video immediately after this TERRORIST ATTACK?
Why did Obama ALLOW his people to continue to blame a video for two weeks?
You can’t defend the indefensible.
cc
October 19th, 2012
6:10 pm
gm, why don’t you tell us when Obama ‘served’, and in which country’s military? Was it Kenya or Indonesia? Maybe that’s too difficult a question for you? Perhaps you can tell us when and where his grandfather served?
MarkV
October 19th, 2012
6:16 pm
LeRoi2 @6:03 pm
“MarkV, they either lied, or Obama is the most incompetent fool to ever be president.”
Are you referring to the President as “they?” The accusation was that the President lied. None of the liars here has been able to prove that.
President fool, incompetent? What did you expect from him? To go to Benghazi and search for clues?
Next time, don’t be so ridiculous.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 19th, 2012
6:16 pm
Carney told reporters, authorities “have no information to suggest that it was a preplanned attack.” He added that there was no reason to think that the Benghazi attack wasn’t related to the video, given that the clip had sparked protests in many Muslim cities.
“The unrest that we’ve seen around the region has been in reaction to a video that Muslims, many Muslims, find offensive,” Carney said.
When pressed by reporters who pointed out evidence that the violence in Benghazi was preplanned, Carney said that “news reports” had speculated about the motive. He noted again that “the unrest around the region has been in response to this video.”
Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/2012/10/18/3873734/obama-administration-officials.html#storylink=cpy
Mark Carney’s statement was on 14 Sep, three days after the attack. Nothing, no one word comes from Carneys lips that has not been parsed, planned, and authorized by the Mistake. There are other transcripts available of Obama on the stump or at the UN.
Obama should resign for lying to the American people. The precedent has been set, by Nixon, who resigned after attempting to coverup a two bit burglary. Obama has tried to cover up an attack killing 4 Americans. It is all about trustworthiness, Nixon failed, Obama failed. He will not resign, I’m sure, but hopefully in less than 3 weeks the long national nightmare will be over.
Gallup. Are you sure?
October 19th, 2012
6:20 pm
Rafe
You made it through Bush, I am sure you will make it through the Obama years.
Pull yourself up by your boot straps and keep marching. One day at time.
MarkV
October 19th, 2012
6:21 pm
cc @6:03 pm
“MarkV: “You accidentally omitted this from your comment:”
I did not “accidentally” omit anything:
Rafe Hollister @ 4:53 pm: “Moreover, if you read the last paragraph of his statement and he was implying it was the result of the stupid video.”
You ignore that before the attack in Benghazi there were demonstrations and attacks elsewhere, such in Cairo. Those were clearly initiated by the video. What is your problem with denouncing the video?
Gallup. Are you sure?
October 19th, 2012
6:22 pm
Rafe
If you want any given President to resign for lying, who will be in the Oval office?
MarkV
October 19th, 2012
6:23 pm
Rafe Hollister @ 6:16 pm
You failed to provide any evidence that the President lied, as you had claimed. You are a liar.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 19th, 2012
6:25 pm
You got me on my numbers Mark it wasn’t the last paragraph where Barry implied it was the video it was the third. Mea Culpa to a bad memory. Here it is, no one is talking about what he implied, just that he made mention of terror.
_____
Since our founding, the United States has been a nation that respects all faiths. We reject all efforts to denigrate the religious beliefs of others. But there is absolutely no justification to this type of senseless violence. None. The world must stand together to unequivocally reject these brutal acts.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 19th, 2012
6:28 pm
Lambeau and I both proved our case, Mark, Obama lied and deceived us all, whether you admit it on not does not change that fact. He should follow Nixon’s precedent and resign.
Gallup. Are you sure?
October 19th, 2012
6:29 pm
Rafe
I read where you posted the Luntz comments about Dems and Americans when he was on Maher.
Why did you not mention at the start of that same segment Luntz said even with the Romney momentum, OBAMA was still going to win?
Guess you forgot that part………………….
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 19th, 2012
6:31 pm
Gallup you are right they all lie, but some like Nixon and Obama lie repeatedly even when confronted with the error of their ways.
MarkV
October 19th, 2012
6:34 pm
Rafe Hollister @6:28 pm
“Lambeau and I both proved our case, Mark, Obama lied and deceived us all, whether you admit it on not does not change that fact. “
You failed to provide any evidence that the President lied, as you claimed. You are a liar.
Gallup. Are you sure?
October 19th, 2012
6:35 pm
Rafe
Should George HW served? After all he was part of an administration that sold weapons to a declared enemy of the state……. then shamefully allowed a Lt Col to take the fall.
My dad is a retired military officer. No Lt Cols are brokering deals on that level without knowledge of some higher ups.
I’m not absolving Obama of anything, but I am saying that they all lie and they lie big. For the most part, those on the left cry when it is a Repub. Those on the right cry when it is a Democrat. And most of both sides will give their own side a pass or downplay the incident.
It is what it is.
LeRoi2
October 19th, 2012
6:37 pm
MarkV you are just the impossibly close minded people i talked about. It is obvious what went on here, but you refuse to see the obvious. Your god Obama is going to be repudiated by the electorate, for the incompetent lying fool that he is, on November 6. See you on November 7, maybe the shock of the truth will bring you out of your coma.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 19th, 2012
6:38 pm
Gallup, you have me mixed up with someone else. I read that post as well, but I don’t watch Bill Maher, don’t even know what channel he haunts. The post was the first I had heard of that conversation. I did see Luntz interview that post debate crowd of former Obama voters the other night. I think he was shocked that most of them were now voting for Romney. I’m guessing he might have changed his mind by now.
MarkV
October 19th, 2012
6:42 pm
LeRoi2 @ 6:37 pm
All that talk, and not a speck of facts as evidence. That is all people like you can do – make accusation, write insults, and when asked for evidence, just sputter and bluster.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 19th, 2012
6:43 pm
Gallup
Don’t think 41 was aware of what LTC North was doing in IRAN/Contra, Maybe Reagan, but doubtful 41 knew about it.
Yes, they all lie, but explain to me how Watergate was more egregious or damaging to the country than this current cover up. Why Nixon and not Obama?
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 19th, 2012
6:50 pm
MarkV
If you think Obama is being honest about this, your assessment of people’s intentions and character is suspect to say the least, so you calling me a liar carries little weight. I have been called worse by more astute people.
BTW: Obama lied!
MarkV
October 19th, 2012
6:53 pm
Rafe Hollister @6:50 pm: “BTW: Obama lied!”
You failed to provide any evidence that the President lied, as you claimed. You claimed that you had provided the evidence, and you did not. You are a liar.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 19th, 2012
8:42 pm
Anyone who reads what I posted know that Obama lied. Anyone, that is, except those who are so blind with worship for their dear leader that they can not see.
MarkV
October 19th, 2012
11:16 pm
Rafe Hollister @ 8:42 pm
You have again failed to provide any evidence that the President lied, as you claimed. You are a liar.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right
October 20th, 2012
2:52 am
Jay Carney doesn’t utter a word unless the statement is approved by the chief of staff or Obama. Neither does Susan Rice. Obama goes on Letterman and the View weeks later and still says “We don’t have all the facts” or “It was the video” despite confirmed knowledge 24 hours following the attack.
Obama and his administration lied from day one – top to bottom, MarkV.
Your inability to accept this stark reality displays a mental disorder that needs immediate attention.
Georgia
October 20th, 2012
4:50 am
Benghazi was preplanned in the sense that terrorists are now putting eyes and ears on a specific target and then smart mobbing any opportunity that shows itself. That means that all of our embassies are being watched for any target opportunity. Knowing this, it should be easy for us to set up an ambush with bait. That’s hardly news, and it’s also not the point of Monday night. The whole crux of the entire coverup is what did Hillary know and when did she know it. The key is Hillary. KISS
Joel Edge
October 20th, 2012
8:45 am
IF we could get an unbiased moderator, then include them. Under the current circumstances, then no.
MarkV
October 20th, 2012
8:50 am
The “stark reality [that] displays a mental disorder” is the inability of some people to address, what has been disputed. The accusation was that the President lied. No verbal deflections can change that fact. The evidence would be simple: A quote of President’s sentence, and showing that it was a lie. The moral cowards, like Rafe, Lambeau and Tiberius, are capable of spewing out such accusations, but when challenged, incapable of either presenting an evidence for that accusation, or taking it back.
As for the presumed “cover up” by the Administration, that is a different issue, one that shows the inability of those who make that accusation to think, even to the point of showing political insanity. But it is a different issue.
Dusty
October 20th, 2012
11:33 am
Well, it is long after the facts presented here. But what I see is two honest people, Rafe & MarkV, strong in their beliefs, each quite sure that they are correct. I would call it a misunderstanding.
Only President Obama knows exactly what he was referring to when he said “terror”. Terror can be general or specific. He could have been referring to the most recent incident killing four Americans or he could have meant the terror of militants around the world or even any terroristic acts by people not considered trained terrorists.
I do not think that Preisdent Obama has been an effective or successful president but I cannot read his mind.
So I suggest that all honest ;people stop calling each other “liars” when there is no effort to be unthruthful on either side. It is a difference of opinion. That’s my opinion with one suggestion: don’t call me a liar.
MarkV
October 20th, 2012
12:33 pm
Dusty @11:33 am
As I took some pain to explain many times already, this had not been a matter of a “belief” about what Obama referred to when he said “terror.” The primary issue in my exchanges with Rafe and others was their very specific, unmistakable accusation the President had lied. There is no misunderstanding possible. If I say that somebody lied, I must be able to quote his verbal or written statement that I can show was untrue. If I cannot, then I lied. When Rafe refuses to do that and substitutes “anyone who reads what I posted know that Obama lied,” one can only shake head.
You may be right that “only President Obama knows exactly what he was referring to when he said “terror,” but that does not mean that he did not say what he said.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right
October 20th, 2012
3:44 pm
Markv, when the President is asked”was this a terrorist attack” and he answers “we don’t know” as he did at least twice, when his CIA station chief confirms it within 24 hours, the president LIED.
No wordsmithing can be used to refute this fact.