A spirited debate that ultimately won’t boost Obama
If President Obama needed a win — any kind of win, by any margin — in last night’s presidential debate, maybe he can claim victory. But if he needed a decisive win in which he regained the initiative by spelling out his vision for the next four years, he’ll have to wait until next week and hope the third time’s the charm.
For Obama did not win such a victory. Personally, I would have called it a draw at worst, because the best, most sustained argument all night came from Mitt Romney, talking about Obama’s economic record, in response to a man who asked the president why he should vote for him again. It was a withering recitation of the missed opportunities of Obama’s presidency. “We don’t have to live like this” and “we don’t have to settle for [insert specific item from Romney's list of Obamanomics miseries here]” were simple but powerful points about what voters overwhelmingly call the most important issue of this campaign. The fact that Romney was responding to a question from a black man, whose demographic has been described as unanimously in favor of Obama, only made his answer more effective.
In snap polls of undecided voters by both CBS News and CNN, Romney won on the economy question by almost a 2-to-1 margin, reminiscent of his debate drubbing of Obama in Denver on Oct. 3.
Overall, those surveyed by both CBS and CNN gave Obama a narrow victory. CBS had it at 37 percent saying Obama won, 30 percent saying Romney, and 33 percent calling it a draw. CNN: 46 percent Obama, 39 percent Romney, 15 percent tie.
In other words, on a night when he needed to regain the momentum, more than half of undecided voters did not say Obama won — and his pluralities not only were at or below his current level in national polls but were also within each poll’s margin of error. This was no thunderbolt like Romney’s Denver performance, which registered the largest margin of victory in Gallup’s history of polling debate results. Yes, Obama “showed some life.” But is this what the Planet-Healer and Sea-Lowerer has fallen to? Showing a pulse?
So, perceptions about the candidates haven’t altered much. Did either land any blows on substance?
Besides the economic monologue by Romney I already mentioned, there were few, if any, clear-cut victories. The Obama campaign will try to make hay out of the president’s sharp line about being “offended” by Romney’s suggestion that he or members of his administration were playing politics with the lethal attack on our consulate in Benghazi. But Obama also kept the issue alive by insisting he’d said terrorists were behind the attack as soon as the second day, when in fact his reference that day to “acts of terror” came after he mentioned the original 9/11 attacks and was not specifically applied to Benghazi. What’s more, Obama and members of his administration still kept referring to the anti-Islam YouTube video and the protests it allegedly sparked for weeks after the attacks; we now know the State Department knew very early on that there had been no such protests in Benghazi. Hashing this out in the press for even a couple of days more does not help Obama — and we’re bound to revisit the issue during next week’s debate, which specifically covers foreign policy.
On energy, both men essentially accused each other of lying about the facts on U.S. fossil-fuel production. National Journal notes that oil production on public land rose between 2008 and 2011, as Obama said — albeit possibly due to policies put in place by the Bush administration, given the lag time between policy making and the effect in the field — but there was less natural gas and coal from public land, as Romney said.
The back-and-forth about Romney’s tax plan covered little new ground, and each candidate can point to a study that supposedly proves his point. About the only thing new was Romney’s hint that taxpayers will have a cap for whichever deductions they choose to use. He emphatically promised more than once neither to raise taxes on the middle class nor to lower the tax burden on the wealthy. Obama could do little else but insinuate Romney would break these promises.
In all, the one big thing Romney did well was to keep the president tied firmly to his record in office, while the one big thing Obama failed to do was sketch out a vision for the next four years other than staying the course — a course, of course, of which a majority of Americans disapprove. Those are the two most relevant outcomes from the debate, and they don’t help the incumbent.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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406 comments Add your comment
Kyle Wingfield
October 17th, 2012
1:09 pm
Just Saying @ 12:55: As I’ve explained elsewhere in the thread, I’m merely asking the “where are Romney’s specifics?!?!?!” crowd to abide by their same lust for details when it comes to Obama.
md
October 17th, 2012
1:11 pm
“The question was about equal pay for women.”
And? Did he say he was going to repeal LL? Or are you just making up strawman arguments……
Bruno
October 17th, 2012
1:11 pm
Look, if there was an effective plan to improve the economy, then either candidate who deduced it would be screaming it from the mountaintops. The truth about the economy is that it is cyclical and a total sitting duck to corruption which can aggravate the natural highs and lows.
Georgia–Great post @ 12:23. At best, a President can create an environment which is either friendly or unfriendly to business. There are no magic solutions which will instantly offset the effects of the vast over-building which occurred in the mid-2000s. In many ways, we just have to wait it out.
Having said that, I personally rate Obama as being unfriendly toward business. In his rush to portray himself as a man of the people, a champion of the downtrodden, he has demonized the producers at every turn. Toss in the uncertainty about the true costs of Obamacare and it’s easy to see why many CEOs are reluctant to spend money right now.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 17th, 2012
1:13 pm
The question was about equal pay for women.
Getalife, I think studies have shown that much of this inequality is just a fact of life and is not deliberate. Women have restrictions on their commitment to work that men do not have. They often are unwilling to travel, have to have more time off for raising children, need more flexible hours, and have to leave the workforce for periods of time more often than men. Usually, there are explanations for why one person gets paid more than another.
Why do women pay more to have a shirt drycleaned than men? Are Drycleaners anti-women? getagrip!
Stevie Ray
October 17th, 2012
1:13 pm
KYLE,
Why do you suppose Romney missed many opportunities last night such as the whole Libya thing is best argued by timeline. Any time BO brought up a record of Romneys Bain offshoring jobs in any amount..why didn’t he refer the the 4, 4 and 3 pinnochios respectively that BO got with these allegations…I bet Romney also wishes he would have conceded the ball to the second half cause he got smoked by 47% thingy…I think that last comment by BO is what really gave him the win..
Voter turnout? BO same as 2008? GOP same as 2008? I think the former is much less likely…seems enthusiasm, as evidenced by at least one question last evening, is nowhere near that of DEMS in 2008..
md
October 17th, 2012
1:14 pm
Libya was a classic example of “shoot first, aim second”…..no if’s and’s or but’s……
Kyle Wingfield
October 17th, 2012
1:15 pm
sailfish @ 12:54: ” Right now 92% of americans are working”
That’s not what 8% unemployment means. In fact, the employment-to-population ratio is at its lowest level since the early 1980s. Check out the data for yourself at the BLS web site.
Stevie Ray
October 17th, 2012
1:18 pm
KYLE,
Ive mentioned before that the absurdity of this election and ones before is that all this hand jive on right and left sights is ignoring the 800lb gorilla in the room…our system is completely broken so all results are flawed..it like our government is a cancerous pig still within reach of the trough (as the water is drying up) and all anybody wants to discuss is if the pig should be adorned in red or blue…
Another 4 years on nothing accomplished and our interests completely subordinated to the money bags and re-election….Will this get fixed in our lifetimes?
Matz
October 17th, 2012
1:20 pm
Rafe Hollister @ 1:13,
Women should just accept that they’re women and get over it! Right? You’re WOMEN! Your life will never be as cool as our masculine experience. STFU! (Cue up the Billy Ocean: “Get outta my dreams! And into my binder…”)
Dusty
October 17th, 2012
1:20 pm
I thought this debate was the biggest blunder ever bestowed on the American people. High school debates have better planning.
The program was set up for statements, not debate. Romney had to ask for a little time to answer an accusation. The moderator was prejudiced and tried to squeeze in her own questions while the selected audience tried to introduce various ideas. but presented long since discussed questions. The audience was carefully selected to show diversity. of skin color if not for good ideas.The timing was unbalanced. The debaters had to rush forward and speed their comments to give a complete thought.
This was not a time for thinkiing but a flash forward to beat the clock. A few good statements got squeezed in but they were few and far between..
We can do BETTER!
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 17th, 2012
1:22 pm
Will this get fixed in our lifetimes?
Well, we have seen the Obama solutions for the last four years, so if he is reelected it will not. Time to try something else. We do not have to settle for what we have!
Gravy Train
October 17th, 2012
1:24 pm
Rafe, if you’re cool with Kyle taking his shots at me, then you better believe I will fire back! Especially when all Kyle has is deflection as the base of his “argument.” If Kyle doesn’t like it, he has my email address and he can send me a location to meet and discuss face to face, instead of talking tough while hiding behind his keyboard. Little lap dogs usually run away at that point. It’s not my fault that Kyle is low paid for cutting and pasting ditto-head bloviations. If that hurts his feelings, he is more than welcome to attempt to ply his trade elsewhere. My guess is that he is very happy for getting paid to do next to nothing. It’s more than obvious that Kyle has chosen to supplement his low income by being a lap dog for plutocrats. I’m just curious as to the number he settled on. For me, there is no number high enough to sell my soul or my pride for.
Stevie Ray
October 17th, 2012
1:27 pm
RAFE,
Appreciate that…in fact BO did utter the promise in 2008 that “the days of lobbyists controlling the DC agenda are over….then immediately pandered to Telecom, Wall Street and the like. The congress spend 30% of their time on our nickel raising money…and the big money lies on the most extreme left and right fringes..
The deck is so stacked that if any Congress person tried to push a bill eliminated private money (or constitutional amendment) from campaigns and other, he would get pushed out of office so quick heads would spin.
sailfish
October 17th, 2012
1:28 pm
kyle
Please…let’s just keep it simple, we tend to overlook all the people who are working and lending a hand to family members who are in a bind. I should know because two of my brothers work in construction which has been decimated and clearly not by president obama. Once inventory is cleared then the picture will grow brighter regardless who ends up president. Just be fair about this economic mess and the person that had to follow behind and cleanup, that’s where most of you on the other side fall flat cause its like you demand it be fixed right now and that was never possible. A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step, then you already know that I presume?
getalife
October 17th, 2012
1:30 pm
When will you support our troops in Libya?
Are you not Americans?
Gravy Train
October 17th, 2012
1:31 pm
Since Kyle wants to pretend that the President hasn’t given details, I’ll supply a few:
1. Stop giving subsidies to oil companies
2. Stop giving tax breaks to companies that outsource American jobs.
3. Let the Bush tax cuts for millionaires expire.
4. The American Jobs Act
5. Continue working with our allies on fighting terrorists.
6. Get our troops out of Afghanistan
7. Smile and hold his head high because he knows that his mere existence drives old, white male, xenophobes and racists moon bat crazy. (My personal favorite)
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 17th, 2012
1:32 pm
Matz
Women should just accept that they’re women and get over it! Right?
____________________
No, we should just give them a million dollars a piece to ease our guilt. (sarcasm)
I think most women, at least those that are married, realize that it is a family effort. As long as their family is doing well, they are happy. We do not have the power to correct every bit of diversity that nature throws at us. Women have always been the nurturers and nest builders and that is the most valuable work mankind does, bring up the next generation and keep the family going. Men have been the hunter/gatherers bringing home the bacon. Can this be reversed, sure, if that is what they want to do, but most women obviously prefer nature’s way.
Single women compete everyday in every way and often outperform and outproduce and out earn the males. They need no protection as they are every bit as good as the men.
We have the LLB act to protect the case where women are underpaid, time to move on.
Stevie Ray
October 17th, 2012
1:34 pm
GRAVYTRAIN
We usually know who lost a debate by the first one to start the name calling..it does seem on the surface that the easiest job in the world is to simply disagree with everything another party stands for no matter how obvious most things are to most people on the surface…the ones who have to dig deeper are generally on wrong side of argument…
Gravy Train
October 17th, 2012
1:34 pm
Your turn, Kyle? One detail, any one will do? What cuts will be made? How will he pay for more bombs and tanks that the military doesn’t want or need. How much money has Willard gotten from General Dynamics, makers of bombs and tanks?
Matz
October 17th, 2012
1:34 pm
Mr. Hollister,
To quote Mrs. Castorini (Olympia Dukakis) in the movie Moonstruck: “What you don’t know about women is a lot.”
Georgia
October 17th, 2012
1:36 pm
Those who watched the debate on television, smartphone or Ipad thought that Obozo won. Those who watched the debate on their Ipod, GPS screen, or ebook thought Romney won.
I watched it on my pager and call it a draw.
adam smith's invisible hand
October 17th, 2012
1:36 pm
“U.S. Housing Starts Up 15% in September” – today’s headline from the NY Times and WS Journal. I guess rafe, md and other tinfoil hatted people think the developers are in a conspiracy to get Obama re-elected.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 17th, 2012
1:39 pm
Gravy
Because even a well trained baboon can do what you do. The Cox’s know it to.
I will let Kyle deal with you, but I have never seen Kyle compared anyone on here with a baboon, like you just did. Bereft of ideas, you resort to attacking the hosts. He brings facts and logic to his replies to you, not sophomoric insults like you dish out.
Sophie's Choice
October 17th, 2012
1:40 pm
“A spirited debate that ultimately won’t boost Obama”– Oh, Kylie. Don’t you just wish? You & your echo chamber here can click your heels together & repeat it all you like, but that won’t make it true. Your boy got called on his lies, and tripped over his own tongue trying to deny it when he got hammered by his own actual lack of accomplishments while he was Governor of Massachusetts. News flash: except for wingnut media outlets like Faux News, all others are already reporting a bounce for Obama. DEAL WITH IT.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 17th, 2012
1:41 pm
“What you don’t know about women is a lot.”
Yep, you could say that about any man.
getalife
October 17th, 2012
1:43 pm
Our President set the record straight on Libya and we have troops there going after the terrorists.
Lets support them.
Tom(Independent Viet Vet-USAF)
October 17th, 2012
1:44 pm
Sorry conservatives, I hope Obama becomes the next President, of Kenya!! Please take Joey Biden and Nancy Pelosi with you. Thanks
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 17th, 2012
1:44 pm
For me, there is no number high enough to sell my soul or my pride for.
Well, have there been any offers, Gravy?
Stevie Ray
October 17th, 2012
1:47 pm
GRAVYTRAIN
1. Stop giving subsidies to oil companies (5 billion or so a year)
2. Stop giving tax breaks to companies that outsource American jobs. (too miniscule to calculate)
3. Let the Bush tax cuts for millionaires expire. ($80 billion a year…)
4. The American Jobs Act (each alleged job costs $235,000)
5. Continue working with our allies on fighting terrorists.(look no further that ME on fire to see how that is working)
6. Get our troops out of Afghanistan (not remotely an original idea)
7. Smile and hold his head high because he knows that his mere existence drives old, white male, xenophobes and racists moon bat crazy. (My personal favorite)(that fits well with you prior comments)
You have suggested in above about $85 billion of additional revenue…can you divide that into $1.4 trillion? SMALL BALL will get us nowhere..
David Bowie
October 17th, 2012
1:47 pm
Ground control to Birther Tom
Ground control to Birther Tom
Rehearse your talking points and put your tinfoil helmet on
Ground control to birther Tom
Gravy Train
October 17th, 2012
1:50 pm
You know Kyle, if you really believed in all of this conservative junk, why don’t you put your money where your mouth is? You could get up some capital and investors and build your very own website instead of riding on the Cox’s coattails. Not even Willard would touch that shady deal, huh? So, here you are. Now do some real work and show us Willard’s magic formula. The vast majority of Americans are waiting.
Stevie Ray
October 17th, 2012
1:52 pm
ADAMSMITH
That is a good sign to be sure…remember that ” was the quickest pace of groundbreaking since July 2008, though data on starts is volatile and subject to substantial revisions.
The other problem is the banks and putting mortgage money into play…if we broke them up..competition would force them to play more even as they continue to lick deep wounds from existing loser portfolios..
Kyle Wingfield
October 17th, 2012
1:52 pm
Gravy @ 1:24: Why would I waste my time emailing you when you will post half a dozen comments here without answering my question?
And the “hiding behind his keyboard” bunk is hilarious coming from an anonymous commenter like yourself. You Internet tough guys are all the same.
iggy
October 17th, 2012
1:56 pm
Big Candy backs away from last nights backing of obama as does Mr Bookman.
“The premise of the entire debate is false, because the attack on our consulate in Benghazi was not an act of terror. ”
- Jay Bookman
But it was, no it wasnt, thats not what Obama said, yes he did, huh, what?
Stevie Ray
October 17th, 2012
1:56 pm
KYLE,
I promise my mouse is bigger than yours:-)
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 17th, 2012
1:57 pm
StevieRay@1:47
Great post, I thought about doing what you did, but with Gravy and those like him, the numbers don’t work. They want the solution to all problems to be the rich are not paying enough. You will never convince them that there just isn’t that much money there, especially in this Obama economy, the number of rich/small businesses etc have been greatly diminished.
It seems their whole political outlook is rapped around their perception of what is fair, and if the solution doesn’t deal with that, then it is flawed in their mind. You just can’t win an argument with this kind of irrationality.
Gotta go make some money!
Kyle Wingfield
October 17th, 2012
1:58 pm
But don’t worry, Gravy. I’m fixing your tough guy problem, at least on my blog. You’re done here.
iggy
October 17th, 2012
2:00 pm
I thought his name was Biffy Ocean.
gm
October 17th, 2012
2:00 pm
a course, of course, of which a majority of Americans disapprove
Oh really Kyle? which Americans disapprove, I think the 47% who Mitt wrote off approve, oh I get it you and the right speak for all Americans, typical arrogant, right winger who thinks they are the only ones in this country.
Bruno
October 17th, 2012
2:03 pm
Big Candy backs away from last nights backing of obama as does Mr Bookman.
iggy–For some reason, the Libs like to quote the first two or three paragraphs of Obama’s Rose garden speech, but have memory loss when it comes to the fourth paragraph, reprinted here:
“Since our founding, the United States has been a nation that respects all faiths. We reject all efforts to denigrate the religious beliefs of others. But there is absolutely no justification to this type of senseless violence. None. The world must stand together to unequivocally reject these brutal acts.”
Anyone who denies that the Obama Administration blamed this attack on the anti-Islamic video doesn’t deserve any respect. That’s all we heard from Obama et. al. for the first two weeks following the attack.
Bad Choices
October 17th, 2012
2:04 pm
Either way, we simply do not have great choices this election. How tragic for America. One thing I do know – you shouldn’t keep doing the same thing that isn’t working!!! So, I am decided based on that one point alone. The other two that put me over the edge??? How utterly stupid was it to only have “5″ security people in the compound in Benghazi, Libya to protect our Ambassador and the others???? STUPID, STUPID!! We had just assisted in overturning a government, (and if anyone believes the Libyan guards supposedly securing the outside of the Embassy could “all be trusted” then they would be crazy – ever heard of “infiltration?”), it was the anniversary of 9/11 and all we could do to protect these people were put “5″ of our security people in place????? I do not want anyone so stupid and so ignoring of those facts in office ever again…..Those 4 people died for absolutely NO REASON AT ALL!! Secondly, I am sick and tired of neither party giving out facts, but especially the President. The American public doesn’t have a “clue” regarding what he is about to do to them re the Affordable Care Act (”Obamacare”). Why doesn’t he come out with the facts: They are: There are 4 levels of coverage in this Act. Bronze coverage pays 60/40; Silver coverage pays 70/30; Gold coverage pays 80/20; and the Platinum coverage pays 90/10 – with no ceiling of out-of-pocket costs!!! Furthermore, the cost of these coverages is “way above what companies are paying now for PPOs, HMOs, etc. in the insurance industry.” Does anyone wish to ask WHY???
Combine that with the fact that Obama wants to “penalize people who cannot afford this atrocious coverage.”
Economy is in the toilet, jobs are in the toilet, our stance in the world is in the toilet, and I refuse to have another 4 years of the same thing that isn’t working…..while I am totally unsure as to whether Romney’s plans will work – I AM TOTALLY SURE THAT OBAMA’S HAS NOT!!!
getalife
October 17th, 2012
2:04 pm
Our President will win the last debate too..
Our President will strike the terrorists in Libya.
Our President will lower unemployment in the October job report.
Our President will get patriotism after the obl movie.
Our President will win reelection.
I have no doubt.
gm
October 17th, 2012
2:04 pm
Amazing when Obama had a off night 2 weeks ago the nut jobs were happy with the moderators, now the losers can not take Obama exposed this rich fraud, who has made millions off the backs of middle class workers, yet the idiots in Georgia dont seem to mind.
Now we know why Georgia is never in play in elections, ””””
getalife
October 17th, 2012
2:05 pm
Free Gravy Train!
Bruno
October 17th, 2012
2:06 pm
But don’t worry, Gravy. I’m fixing your tough guy problem, at least on my blog. You’re done here.
No loss, Kyle. I actually enjoy intelligent debate from those with whom I disagree. The Train was here for one reason and one reason only, and it wasn’t intelligent debate.
kayaker 71
October 17th, 2012
2:07 pm
Post Gallup Poll today…. Romney 51% Bozo 46% ……. it appears that a lot of Bozo 2008 voters are changing their mind in a big way. Luntz’s small sample post debate was very telling. 2008 Bozo voters are disillusioned, disappointed and filled with regret at having their vote wasted on this clown. And Republicans are filled with enthusiasm and very up beat about our political future. I have said it before and now again…… Romney 320 electoral votes Bozo 218 electoral votes ….. a landslide for the GOP.
Bruno
October 17th, 2012
2:08 pm
Free Gravy Train!
I also enjoy getalife’s barbs, though they don’t always rise to the level of intelligent debate.
gm
October 17th, 2012
2:09 pm
Rush scum bag, high school dropout Limbaugh called Candy a “Hack, another disrespect towards women, but the low self esteem rep women never seem to mind, and gutless Mitt will never stand up to this scum.
gm
October 17th, 2012
2:13 pm
kayaker 71
Luntz’s small sample post debate was very telling. 2008 Bozo voters are disillusioned,
You mean the fox all white male audience that Luntz spoke with? that is really telling, how can you take a poll in Nevada but there are no latinos in the audience? oh well that fox low viewers for you.
kayaker 71
October 17th, 2012
2:13 pm
gm, 2:09,
This debate was not about Candy Crowley’s image….. it was about allowing the voting public to have a close look at the candidates. This beefy liberal heifer has had her 15 min of fame at the expense of an intelligent electorate who knows the difference between a journalist and a liberal hack.