A spirited debate that ultimately won’t boost Obama
If President Obama needed a win — any kind of win, by any margin — in last night’s presidential debate, maybe he can claim victory. But if he needed a decisive win in which he regained the initiative by spelling out his vision for the next four years, he’ll have to wait until next week and hope the third time’s the charm.
For Obama did not win such a victory. Personally, I would have called it a draw at worst, because the best, most sustained argument all night came from Mitt Romney, talking about Obama’s economic record, in response to a man who asked the president why he should vote for him again. It was a withering recitation of the missed opportunities of Obama’s presidency. “We don’t have to live like this” and “we don’t have to settle for [insert specific item from Romney's list of Obamanomics miseries here]” were simple but powerful points about what voters overwhelmingly call the most important issue of this campaign. The fact that Romney was responding to a question from a black man, whose demographic has been described as unanimously in favor of Obama, only made his answer more effective.
In snap polls of undecided voters by both CBS News and CNN, Romney won on the economy question by almost a 2-to-1 margin, reminiscent of his debate drubbing of Obama in Denver on Oct. 3.
Overall, those surveyed by both CBS and CNN gave Obama a narrow victory. CBS had it at 37 percent saying Obama won, 30 percent saying Romney, and 33 percent calling it a draw. CNN: 46 percent Obama, 39 percent Romney, 15 percent tie.
In other words, on a night when he needed to regain the momentum, more than half of undecided voters did not say Obama won — and his pluralities not only were at or below his current level in national polls but were also within each poll’s margin of error. This was no thunderbolt like Romney’s Denver performance, which registered the largest margin of victory in Gallup’s history of polling debate results. Yes, Obama “showed some life.” But is this what the Planet-Healer and Sea-Lowerer has fallen to? Showing a pulse?
So, perceptions about the candidates haven’t altered much. Did either land any blows on substance?
Besides the economic monologue by Romney I already mentioned, there were few, if any, clear-cut victories. The Obama campaign will try to make hay out of the president’s sharp line about being “offended” by Romney’s suggestion that he or members of his administration were playing politics with the lethal attack on our consulate in Benghazi. But Obama also kept the issue alive by insisting he’d said terrorists were behind the attack as soon as the second day, when in fact his reference that day to “acts of terror” came after he mentioned the original 9/11 attacks and was not specifically applied to Benghazi. What’s more, Obama and members of his administration still kept referring to the anti-Islam YouTube video and the protests it allegedly sparked for weeks after the attacks; we now know the State Department knew very early on that there had been no such protests in Benghazi. Hashing this out in the press for even a couple of days more does not help Obama — and we’re bound to revisit the issue during next week’s debate, which specifically covers foreign policy.
On energy, both men essentially accused each other of lying about the facts on U.S. fossil-fuel production. National Journal notes that oil production on public land rose between 2008 and 2011, as Obama said — albeit possibly due to policies put in place by the Bush administration, given the lag time between policy making and the effect in the field — but there was less natural gas and coal from public land, as Romney said.
The back-and-forth about Romney’s tax plan covered little new ground, and each candidate can point to a study that supposedly proves his point. About the only thing new was Romney’s hint that taxpayers will have a cap for whichever deductions they choose to use. He emphatically promised more than once neither to raise taxes on the middle class nor to lower the tax burden on the wealthy. Obama could do little else but insinuate Romney would break these promises.
In all, the one big thing Romney did well was to keep the president tied firmly to his record in office, while the one big thing Obama failed to do was sketch out a vision for the next four years other than staying the course — a course, of course, of which a majority of Americans disapprove. Those are the two most relevant outcomes from the debate, and they don’t help the incumbent.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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406 comments Add your comment
Kyle Wingfield
October 17th, 2012
12:30 pm
Yes, getalife @ 12:27, let’s do get down to facts. And I don’t mean the made-up ones we heard from Obama last night.
Kyle Wingfield
October 17th, 2012
12:31 pm
sailfish @ 12:30: So, there’s one jobs bill. Anything else?
Kyle Wingfield
October 17th, 2012
12:32 pm
What’s his proposal on Medicare? SS? How, specifically, would he make good on his broken first-term promise to halve the deficit within four years? Why would his “green” energy efforts be more fruitful in the next four years than they have been in the past 3.5 — what would he do differently?
Etc., etc.
jconservative
October 17th, 2012
12:33 pm
For the rest of you political junkies here are the details of the next presidential debate.
The next moderator is Bob Schieffer of CBS and he has selected the following topics:
“Subject to possible changes because of news developments, here are the topics for the October 22 debate, not necessarily to be brought up in this order:
America’s role in the world
Our longest war – Afghanistan and Pakistan
Red Lines – Israel and Iran
The Changing Middle East and the New Face of Terrorism – I
The Changing Middle East and the New Face of Terrorism – II
The Rise of China and Tomorrow’s World”
getalife
October 17th, 2012
12:36 pm
Kyle,
Read the transcript and post where mitt said he is for equal pay for women.
Don’t give rw media lies. ramash is not credible.
“Binders of women” is called a gaffe.
Kyle Wingfield
October 17th, 2012
12:37 pm
jconservative @ 12:33: So, nothing on Russia … nothing on possible EU fiscal collapse(s) … nothing on Latin America … nothing specifically on Syria …
Of course the ME is the biggest topic. But that list would make one believe it’s the only topic.
H.E. Pennypacker
October 17th, 2012
12:37 pm
Kyle,
You are correct, there have been few specifics offered by the President, but if you make that charge you have to equally assert such a charge. In today’s politics, it seems that to offer specifics is to lead with your chin. Governor Romney offers only vague tax plans because he knows the Democrats would pull our the least appealing elements and use them like a cudgel. That is no different than how Ryan used the $716 billion cost savings negotiated our of Medicare, (to fund expanded coverage in Obamacare), to take a position as the defender of a program he would like to voucherize and……reduce its costs.
To level the charge of lack of specifics on one side and ignore the same from the other is disingenuous.
Kyle Wingfield
October 17th, 2012
12:37 pm
LOL, Ramesh is not credible but “getalife” is.
Just Saying..
October 17th, 2012
12:38 pm
I also believe every time Romney says “100% of Americans”, WAY too many voters recall “Oh, yeah, that 47% thing”.
Stop with the % word, already. Just say “…all Americans”.
getalife
October 17th, 2012
12:39 pm
“What’s his proposal on Medicare? SS? How, specifically, would he make good on his broken first-term promise to halve the deficit within four years? Why would his “green” energy efforts be more fruitful in the next four years than they have been in the past 3.5 — what would he do differently? ”
Perhaps you should listen better and go read his web site.
You did not listen to him on Libya and you (the media) and mitt looked like fools.
Kyle Wingfield
October 17th, 2012
12:39 pm
Pennypacker @ 12:37. “To level the charge of lack of specifics on one side and ignore the same from the other is disingenuous.”
Correct. Which is why I keep asking the people who began by demanding specifics from Romney to point out the specifics from Obama, or to explain why Obama’s lack of specifics doesn’t bother them but Romney’s does.
JamVet
October 17th, 2012
12:40 pm
After that rousing Romney victory over
CrowleyObama last night (LOL), I’m changing my prediction.I now have Team Uppity Muslim at 295 EC votes (down from 310) and Team Money Boo Boo at 243 EC votes, up from 228.
And for all of you heavy hitters out there don’t forget!
The odds on Team MBB are still great at 2/1, while TUM is only getting 4/11.
Easy money…
Gimme Gimme Gimme
October 17th, 2012
12:40 pm
“Next Monday Obama is going to hold Romney down and cut his hair.
What will he do after that? Eat his dog?
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 17th, 2012
12:41 pm
Seems the entire Popular Front moved over here.
Who won, the Dems are frothing at the mouth to say their guy won. Expectations were so low, based on his last non mirror fogging performance, so yeah, he did much better. Did he win? Looked pretty even to me. Romney rapped his miserable record around his neck and exposed the fact that he has no plan for the next four years. Obama made some points against Romney as well, we he talked about Romney’s past disparaging remark about the coal plant. He dodged the Libyan fiasco coverup bullet as time ran out and Crowly threw him a life preserver. That will not stand after Monday.
But, the bottom line is what happens in the polls. Not sure we will get much idea before the next debate. The polls tell which one won. Did women move back toward Obama? IMO, I think people have finally heard enough and made the decision that Obama is all mouth and fairytale and has been proven a failure, and I don’t think he can get them back. We will see soon.
Del
October 17th, 2012
12:41 pm
It seems like some of these meat heads on here today think they’re going to reverse Obama’s loss of woman voters with these stupid posts.
Truth Squad
October 17th, 2012
12:42 pm
Isn’t ironic that Kyle and other Republicans are busy defending Affirmative Action today?
Governor Romney admitted to committing Affirmative Action last night with his rejecting of some presumed qualified men in order to select from a “binder of women” who were also presumed qualified.
I wonder if these same folks will still defend such actions one the Supreme Courts has put an end to the practice?
H.E. Pennypacker
October 17th, 2012
12:43 pm
For those curious, I did find some specifics on Romney’s tax plan.
http://www.romneytaxplan.com/
getalife
October 17th, 2012
12:43 pm
I am credible and usually right Kyle.
I filter out the media bs and look at what was said and proposed.
Try it.
Kyle Wingfield
October 17th, 2012
12:43 pm
getalife @ 12:39: Oh, I’ve been to his web site. Clearly, you haven’t. Here’s the link.
What is his “plan”? Oppose Republicans. Everything else is in the past tense.
Well, everything else except the fund-raising pitch.
It’s just like Geithner said to Ryan: We’re not saying we have a plan. We’re just saying we don’t like yours.
Gimme Gimme Gimme
October 17th, 2012
12:44 pm
getalife – “I am credible and usually right Kyle.”
That’s funny right there. I don’t care who you are.
sailfish
October 17th, 2012
12:46 pm
How’s about raising taxes on those making over 250k, is there a problem with that, do you make over 250k? How many small businesses make over that in reality? Dry cleaners? mom & pop restaurants? Not even close. We need more revenue to tackle the deficit. Medicare & social security needs attention but not vouchers and privitization. These deficits are the result of wars, irresponsible tax cuts, medicare part d and of course the great recession itself. I would not grade out the president higher than a C+ but I certainly wouldn’t replace him with a man who has no specifics, blustering foreign policy, and most likely more loyalty to the wealthy class, he’s a C- as a candidate. I’ll stick with the C+ guy moving in the direction of a solid B over the unknown C- who has promised just about everything for everybody in the past few weeks, it does not add up…
Del
October 17th, 2012
12:47 pm
Obama’s new campaign bumper sticker…We Have No Plan But Yes We Can.
Matz
October 17th, 2012
12:47 pm
“Binders of women” is called a gaffe.
In some states, it’s called p0rn0graphy. In Utah, it’s called a Bridal Registry.
getalife
October 17th, 2012
12:48 pm
Kyle,
You can find a link to support your opinion and I can find links to support my opinion.
Lets not play this silly game and just write the facts.
Post mitt supporting equal pay for women in this debate.
Post mitt getting busted on lying about Libya.
Lets cut the bs and debate the facts.
JamVet
October 17th, 2012
12:49 pm
Funny you mention Geithner so soon after mentioning Clinton-esque, Kyle.
Give me a minute, it will come to me; which previous prez did Geithner work for?
BHO is GWB II.
Just another in a long line of pro-war, corporate owned wh*res who take their marching orders from Wall Street…
Kyle Wingfield
October 17th, 2012
12:49 pm
sailfish @ 12:46: Raising taxes on the “millionaires and billionaires” who make $250K a year is not a plan. It’s one policy. Everything else Obama states amounts to a goal, without specific ways of getting there.
Which is not a wholly bad approach — after all, even Obama acknowledges the POTUS has to work with Congress to make law (except when he’s saying “We can’t wait” and doing the things Congress has declined to do, but I digress). The question is: Why is this acceptable from Obama but not from Romney?
Del
October 17th, 2012
12:50 pm
“That’s funny right there. I don’t care who you are.”
Quite rightly
Dusty
October 17th, 2012
12:51 pm
THIS TIME?
The clock was ticking and time did fly.
Who mobilized the mind with many a sigh?
Did words abound that stirred our souls?
Made voters think before the polls?
Will the poor man say “He doesn’t care.”?
Will the rich man say “He should be fair.”?
Each one of us does seek the truth.
Importance lies in the voting booth.
But truth eludes even an honest man.
A twisted promise will seem best plan.
LIes are lifted then thrown away
But lies still come alive each day.
We long for truth but can we find it?
Not when truth has rot behind it!
We do our best and that is all.
The chips will fly and then they fall.
.
Obama is a LIAR!!!
October 17th, 2012
12:51 pm
Obama lied and
jconservative
October 17th, 2012
12:51 pm
Kyle Wingfield at 12:37 pm
It is what it is. Of course, Scheiffer left himself and out with his comment: “Subject to possible changes because of news developments…” I would think that would cover anything hot, domestic or foreign.
Kyle Wingfield
October 17th, 2012
12:51 pm
getalife @ 12:39: “go read his web site”
[link to web site provided.]
getalife @ 12:48: “Lets not play this silly game” of looking at web sites.
getalife
October 17th, 2012
12:51 pm
Kyle,
When your opponent does not provide specific details should you?
No.
The idea to let congress write the details is not leadership.
That is leading from behind.
Obama is a LIAR!!!
October 17th, 2012
12:51 pm
Enter your comments here
Kyle Wingfield
October 17th, 2012
12:53 pm
jconservative @ 12:51: Not shooting the messenger. But I would like to hear each candidate on Europe even if Spain doesn’t require a bailout between now and then.
Gravy Train
October 17th, 2012
12:53 pm
Instead of deflecting, a la Willard, why don’t you just provide just one detail? Just one? Or is the plan so double secret that not even you lap dogs are privy to it?
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 17th, 2012
12:53 pm
CNN last night used a hologram chart to show how the numbers do not add up. Obama’s one note economic plan, tax the wealthy revenue was added to what revenue was available now. No visible change to total revenue was evident. They pointed out there were no enough ‘wealthy’ to move the chart and to raise significant money from the wealthy, the tax rates on them would have to be extremely high and that Congress would never go along with that.
To be fair, they used the same hologram to show the money Romney says he will add by ending deductions. It was much more than the money from the tax the rich scheme, but again, not enough to balance off the spending. Neither’s math adds up, but only Romney ever gets a question, why is that? Romney is the one that gets the “be more specific question”, but Obama has less specifics to his plan than Romney. Go figure!
Kyle Wingfield
October 17th, 2012
12:54 pm
Gravy, deflecting: “Why are you deflecting?”
And he wonders why I don’t answer his nonsense most of the time.
sailfish
October 17th, 2012
12:54 pm
Well, time to dive deep, all the flotsam here makes me want to find the sweet water. Just one last point, obama has a record which romney keeps pointing out. He claims it’s a failure, I say it is not because even if you have 6.5% unemployment, if you find yourself in that group its still a depression – for you! Right now 92% of americans are working and that is no small feat after dangling off the cliff four short years ago; be fair, like clinton said no president could’ve solved this problem completely in four years, to state the contrary is just pulling the wool over your own eyes and ears…
Just Saying..
October 17th, 2012
12:55 pm
“How, specifically, would he make good on his broken first-term promise to halve the deficit within four years?”
Kyle, getting a little over amped here? Other than Allah and Joseph Smith, your belief is there is an American politician who could have actually halved the US budget deficit over the past four years? You genuinely believe that promise could have been kept? Should have been kept?
Really?
getalife
October 17th, 2012
12:55 pm
Kyle,
Write without rw media links to prove your point.
You have to actually think for yourself.
I know that is too much to ask from the right but I will keep trying.
Gravy Train
October 17th, 2012
12:57 pm
Also, Kyle, care to explain how Willard claims he will create millions of jobs and then yells “Government doesn’t create jobs!” Reconcile that one, lap dog.
Gravy Train
October 17th, 2012
12:58 pm
I don’t wonder why. I know why. You don’t have any answers. You’re nothing but a low paid lap dog.
Bruno
October 17th, 2012
12:59 pm
My overall impression was that Obama won slightly on style and that Romney won by a significant margin on substance.
Taqweeshea–During the debate, I remarked to PB that Romney should have toned it down a time or two since it was a public forum. He seemed a little swept up in the moment, and should have relaxed a bit more.
On the other hand, Obama’s voice appeared to be a full octave above his normal range for most of the debate, suggesting to me that he was feeling defensive.
md
October 17th, 2012
1:01 pm
“You did not listen to him on Libya and you (the media) and mitt looked like fools.”
Because common sense dictates that his timeline and comments make no sense……no matter how one tries to spin it.
Even if his comment in the rose garden was in reference to Benghazi, it would make no sense whatsoever to then proceed to put out info for 2.5 weeks saying there were protestors…….they knew there were never any protesters long before that……………
Gravy Train
October 17th, 2012
1:03 pm
How do I know you’re low paid? Because even a well trained baboon can do what you do. The Cox’s know it too.
getalife
October 17th, 2012
1:05 pm
“MR. ROMNEY: I’m going to help women in America get — get good work by getting a stronger economy and by supporting women in the workforce. ”
The question was about equal pay for women.
Del
October 17th, 2012
1:08 pm
” Romney is the one that gets the “be more specific question”, but Obama has less specifics to his plan than Romney. Go figure!”
Rafe, it’s intended to deflect away from Obama’s lack of a plan for a second term. That’s why Romney’s caught up and now leads in the polls because voters are seeing through the smoke screen.Team Romney knows that if they provided more specific detail that Obama’s campaign managers would only attempt to use those details for further defection. They have no plan of their own that Obama can use to sell against Romney’s so all they can do is deflect by arguing that Romney won’t provide details in hopes of discrediting him. It hasn’t been working.
getalife
October 17th, 2012
1:08 pm
“Does the buck stop with your secretary of state as far as what went on here?
PRESIDENT OBAMA: Secretary Clinton has done an extraordinary job. But she works for me. I’m the president. And I’m always responsible. And that’s why nobody is more interested in finding out exactly what happened than I did (sic).
The day after the attack, Governor, I stood in the Rose Garden, and I told the American people and the world that we are going to find out exactly what happened, that this was an act of terror. And I also said that we’re going to hunt down those who committed this crime. And then a few days later, I was there greeting the caskets coming into Andrews Air Force Base and grieving with the families.
And the suggestion that anybody in my team, whether the secretary of state, our U.N. ambassador, anybody on my team would play politics or mislead when we’ve lost four of our own, Governor, is offensive. That’s not what we do. That’s not what I do as president. That’s not what I do as commander in chief.
MS. CROWLEY: Governor, if you want to reply just quickly to this, please.
MR. ROMNEY: Yeah, I — I certainly do. I certainly do. I — I think it’s interesting the president just said something which is that on the day after the attack, he went in the Rose Garden and said that this was an act of terror. You said in the Rose Garden the day after the attack it was an act of terror. It was not a spontaneous demonstration. ”
Owned.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 17th, 2012
1:08 pm
Gravy
Insulting the host is a reprehensible response, just because you are unable to compete with facts and logic. Go back to the underwear jokes, they serve you better!
Kyle Wingfield
October 17th, 2012
1:08 pm
getalife @ 12:55: I linked to the Obama 2012 site.
Keep digging.