A spirited debate that ultimately won’t boost Obama
If President Obama needed a win — any kind of win, by any margin — in last night’s presidential debate, maybe he can claim victory. But if he needed a decisive win in which he regained the initiative by spelling out his vision for the next four years, he’ll have to wait until next week and hope the third time’s the charm.
For Obama did not win such a victory. Personally, I would have called it a draw at worst, because the best, most sustained argument all night came from Mitt Romney, talking about Obama’s economic record, in response to a man who asked the president why he should vote for him again. It was a withering recitation of the missed opportunities of Obama’s presidency. “We don’t have to live like this” and “we don’t have to settle for [insert specific item from Romney's list of Obamanomics miseries here]” were simple but powerful points about what voters overwhelmingly call the most important issue of this campaign. The fact that Romney was responding to a question from a black man, whose demographic has been described as unanimously in favor of Obama, only made his answer more effective.
In snap polls of undecided voters by both CBS News and CNN, Romney won on the economy question by almost a 2-to-1 margin, reminiscent of his debate drubbing of Obama in Denver on Oct. 3.
Overall, those surveyed by both CBS and CNN gave Obama a narrow victory. CBS had it at 37 percent saying Obama won, 30 percent saying Romney, and 33 percent calling it a draw. CNN: 46 percent Obama, 39 percent Romney, 15 percent tie.
In other words, on a night when he needed to regain the momentum, more than half of undecided voters did not say Obama won — and his pluralities not only were at or below his current level in national polls but were also within each poll’s margin of error. This was no thunderbolt like Romney’s Denver performance, which registered the largest margin of victory in Gallup’s history of polling debate results. Yes, Obama “showed some life.” But is this what the Planet-Healer and Sea-Lowerer has fallen to? Showing a pulse?
So, perceptions about the candidates haven’t altered much. Did either land any blows on substance?
Besides the economic monologue by Romney I already mentioned, there were few, if any, clear-cut victories. The Obama campaign will try to make hay out of the president’s sharp line about being “offended” by Romney’s suggestion that he or members of his administration were playing politics with the lethal attack on our consulate in Benghazi. But Obama also kept the issue alive by insisting he’d said terrorists were behind the attack as soon as the second day, when in fact his reference that day to “acts of terror” came after he mentioned the original 9/11 attacks and was not specifically applied to Benghazi. What’s more, Obama and members of his administration still kept referring to the anti-Islam YouTube video and the protests it allegedly sparked for weeks after the attacks; we now know the State Department knew very early on that there had been no such protests in Benghazi. Hashing this out in the press for even a couple of days more does not help Obama — and we’re bound to revisit the issue during next week’s debate, which specifically covers foreign policy.
On energy, both men essentially accused each other of lying about the facts on U.S. fossil-fuel production. National Journal notes that oil production on public land rose between 2008 and 2011, as Obama said — albeit possibly due to policies put in place by the Bush administration, given the lag time between policy making and the effect in the field — but there was less natural gas and coal from public land, as Romney said.
The back-and-forth about Romney’s tax plan covered little new ground, and each candidate can point to a study that supposedly proves his point. About the only thing new was Romney’s hint that taxpayers will have a cap for whichever deductions they choose to use. He emphatically promised more than once neither to raise taxes on the middle class nor to lower the tax burden on the wealthy. Obama could do little else but insinuate Romney would break these promises.
In all, the one big thing Romney did well was to keep the president tied firmly to his record in office, while the one big thing Obama failed to do was sketch out a vision for the next four years other than staying the course — a course, of course, of which a majority of Americans disapprove. Those are the two most relevant outcomes from the debate, and they don’t help the incumbent.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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406 comments Add your comment
Del
October 17th, 2012
12:00 pm
Bruno,
Keep it down some, you know how facts upset the delusional mind sets of our blog friends on the left.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
October 17th, 2012
12:00 pm
Better economy than 4 years ago, better employment than 4 years ago, OBL is dead, GM is alive, Stock market has practically doubled from where it was 4 years ago…
What planet are you dialing in from today, Troll?
Kyle Wingfield
October 17th, 2012
12:00 pm
HRPufnstuf: Same question I posed to JF @ 11:47: What are the specifics of Obama’s plans?
iggy
October 17th, 2012
12:02 pm
“just want the binders of Thai women. K, thanks…”
LOL
JamVet
October 17th, 2012
12:03 pm
!s Romney being vague on everything because he truly does not know what he is talking about?
It sure looks that way.
The legacy of trickle down madness and voodoo economics that have
skyrocketedflatlined our working class wages for the past thirty years.Long Live the Plutocracy!
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 17th, 2012
12:04 pm
Finn @ 11:56: Are you saying you’d prefer that he hadn’t hired the women?
Well, can you READ, Kyle? Did I say that??
It’s all about his approach to hiring women. Boys, let’s order up some women folk. Gather yer binders.
How about “Boys, get me some Burgundy wine for Xmas dinner. I don’t want any of that Bordeaux wine.”
Matz
October 17th, 2012
12:04 pm
Binder? I just MET her!!
md
October 17th, 2012
12:04 pm
” Romney can’t keep saying “I’m going to change the tax code and eliminate loopholes and deductions””
He can if he understands that it is a framework and that a divided congress will be the ultimate deciders of what stays and what goes………it’s doubtful if Romney wins he will have both chambers of congress and will be unable to cram through legislation such as Obamacare……..
Beyond The Middle of the Road
October 17th, 2012
12:05 pm
Yeah, the “binder” backlash is pretty equivalent to the “didn’t build that” one. Both sides like to quote out of context to try and score points.
Don
October 17th, 2012
12:06 pm
Polls? Before the 1rst debate Obama was kicking Mitt’s butt. After the debate Romney’s numbers were great. What happened to all those polls that were deliberately skewed toward Obama? Funny now that has become a non-issue.
Kyle, you have always been a lap dog for conservatives. This article is no different.
Will the real Mitt Romney please stand up!
MarkV
October 17th, 2012
12:07 pm
Regarding the effect of these debates on the election result, the outcome will depend on whether more voters will believe in illusions that Romney has been selling. Because all his critique of Obama’s performance, as well as Romney’s promises, are illusions (illusion -(1): a misleading image presented to the vision (2): something that deceives or misleads intellectually.)
Implicit in all those Romney’s recitations of the current economic woes is the claim that Obama should have done better and got better results. That is, of course, an illusionary claim that Romney cannot support by any facts. The same is true about any plans and promises he is making. Perhaps Obama should take a page from Romney’s book and counter everything Romney promises by saying that he will do even better. The platitudes that Romney calls his programs are nothing but illusion, which one can only believe or not believe.
iggy
October 17th, 2012
12:08 pm
Obamas last evening reactions to Romney was akin to Navin Johnsons reactions to those cans.
“Hey, these cans are defective…..wah wah wah…He HATES these cans…MORE CANS!!!!”
Matz
October 17th, 2012
12:08 pm
Thank you binders and gentlemen. You’ve been a delightful audience. We’re here every night through the election.
PLEASE, tip your waitress.
getalife
October 17th, 2012
12:10 pm
As predicted, The Vice President set the stage by destroying ryan and our President finished off mitt.
mitt lost women because he is not for equal pay.
mitt lost Latinos by calling them undocumented illegals.
mitt lost on Libya and our President scolded him on how to act like Americans. Good advice for you cons too.
mitt disrespected and insulted 47% of the American people.
mitt will lose big.
MarkV
October 17th, 2012
12:12 pm
Lambeau @11:33 am
In other words, you still cannot provide any evidence for your lie, but are incapable of admitting that.
Del
October 17th, 2012
12:12 pm
President Mitt Romney just sounds more American than President Barack Obama. Something else to look forward to in 013.
Taqweeshea
October 17th, 2012
12:12 pm
My overall impression was that Obama won slightly on style and that Romney won by a significant margin on substance.
If you listened, Mitt addressed the specifics on nearly every question and Barack kept gravitating to long-winded, off point generalities. On the gun control issue, for example, BHO strayed so far into his yawn inducing narrative about public education that the mod had to remind him the question was about guns.
JDW
October 17th, 2012
12:13 pm
@Kyle…its not so much that I think women are offended as it appears that they are.
It was terrible phrasing…he said “they brought us whole binders full of women”. He did not say we made a concerted effort to find qualified candidates or we sought resumes…he makes it sound like they keep them in the closet until needed.
getalife
October 17th, 2012
12:14 pm
mitt will be gone in a couple of weeks.
You have to act like Americans to win the White House.
I suggest you cons start acting like Americans for 16.
Gravy Train
October 17th, 2012
12:15 pm
Actually Willard said he would cap deductions “at, let’s say $25,000, and you can chose which to keep,” direct quote. Who in the middle class does he know that has $25,000 worth of deductions already? What if your income is at or less than $25,000? He can’t even get real off the cuff! Kyle, how are those magic underwear working out for you? Seems like such a trivial thing to sell your soul for.
They BOTH suck
October 17th, 2012
12:16 pm
Kyle
Thanks for the follow up. I doubt it moves the needle much either way when looking at the overall debate, however I did want to verify if there was a difference in the two polls.
Kyle Wingfield
October 17th, 2012
12:17 pm
Gravy @ 12:15: Are you suggesting people in the middle class have less than $25K worth of deductions?
And if so, wouldn’t that necessarily mean their taxes aren’t going up, if their rate goes down and they won’t lose any deductions?
adam smith's invisible hand
October 17th, 2012
12:17 pm
Why would any sane person think that Romney, with the same advisors and policies as GWBush, would have a different result than GWBush? I’ve seen cons use the definition of crazy – repeating the same action and expecting a different result – but I guess you think it doesn’t apply to you.
md
October 17th, 2012
12:17 pm
“Yeah, the “binder” backlash is pretty equivalent to the “didn’t build that” one.”
Not even close…….Obama is still clueless about how gov’t is a drag on the private sector……the private sector built(funded) it ALL, might want to remember that.
Don
October 17th, 2012
12:17 pm
Jam Vet, I was expecting Obama to call Romney’s economic plan just that, voodoo economics. It’s well documented that trickle down didn’t work for Bush or Reagan. Modern history proves that our national debt has increased rapidly under ,not Democrat but Republican administrations. Just imagine what our deficit will be if Romney is elected, when unlike W, he who had the luxury of starting from zero.
Kyle Wingfield
October 17th, 2012
12:18 pm
Finn @ 12:04: Just checking, because otherwise, I don’t see what you can get mad about. He asked for female candidate, he got them, and he hired them. All the rest is ridiculous spin, even by your standards.
getalife
October 17th, 2012
12:18 pm
The best part was the look on mitt’s face when mitt whined to Candy like a spoiled rich brat and whined “what”.
Media missed it but it was hilarious.
The next best part was busting mitt on his Libya lie and our President scolded mitt on how Americans act after a attack. The cons and media did not act like Americans.
This proved mitt is not a leader.
Truth Squad
October 17th, 2012
12:19 pm
The truth is that even if Kyle is correct, it doesn’t matter. Governor Romney doesn’t have the electoral votes to win. Ohio has clearly said “no!” to Romney which means he done.
In addition to Indiana, he might take back North Carolina. I wouldn’t bet on him taking any state where Latinos make a big difference. That means states where Latino turnout is traditionally understated in preelection polls:Nevada and Colorado especially, as well as Florida will be blue. Romney’s team has already said they will lose if they cannot get close to 30% of the Latino vote. Right now, he’s around 20-23%.
So no, no boost necessary for President Obama. I guess there’s always that hopey thing Republicans can cling to.
Kyle Wingfield
October 17th, 2012
12:19 pm
Beyond @ 12:05: Except Romney didn’t spend the preceding five minutes describing making lists of women to put in binders.
Kyle Wingfield
October 17th, 2012
12:20 pm
No, JDW @ 12:13, you are making it sound that way.
MEGO
October 17th, 2012
12:21 pm
@Bruno 11:00,
Is that not what you guys said ………when President Obama had Osama taken out??? The Bush Administration intelligence was the reason, Mr. Obama did not do anything??
Lambeau
October 17th, 2012
12:21 pm
Mark, I as well as other people presented evidence yesterday and you won’t “accept” it because of semantics. Get over yourself.
getalife
October 17th, 2012
12:21 pm
Kyle,
mitt is not for equal pay for women.
Are you?
Kyle Wingfield
October 17th, 2012
12:22 pm
invisible @ 12:17: “Why would any sane person think that Romney, with the same advisors and policies as GWBush, would have a different result than GWBush?”
Well, Obama has (or had) many of the same advisers as Clinton; have the past four years been Clinton-esque?
sailfish
October 17th, 2012
12:22 pm
kyle
For those of us who want romney to spell out specific cuts, he fails again and again. If you have no credibility, why do you choose to believe a man that claims he can create 12 million new jobs? What’s his proof that he can accomplish that goal, just because he says so? Regardless, his math still doesn’t work concerning deficits, isn’t that what the right wingers and tea party have been complaining about ad nauseum? I’ll stick with the cirrent trends of decreasing unemployment and a stock market that’s rejuvenated my 401k – romney fails to close the deal, again.
H.E. Pennypacker
October 17th, 2012
12:22 pm
Kyle, that is a fair clarification on your debate summary, but I duly noted that I was paraphrasing your conclusion of a draw on the conventions, a not unfair summary characterization.
As for the binder comments, they are much ado about nothing. I give Romney credit for hiring women, although questions have arose since last night if the version portrayed during the debate was accurate. A group called MASSGAP, a bipartisan group of women, have stated that before the election they compiled said binder and handed it to Mr. Romney when he took office to re-mediate the lack of women in top state office.
At the end of the day, is it not about equal pay for equal work and where does Governor Romney stand on Lily Ledbetter? He did not take a position during the debate and his representatives dodged the question post debate. I suspect that means he is against it, but does not want to be on record opposing such, but I am open to other interpretations.
Georgia
October 17th, 2012
12:23 pm
Look, if there was an effective plan to improve the economy, then either candidate who deduced it would be screaming it from the mountaintops. The truth about the economy is that it is cyclical and a total sitting duck to corruption which can aggravate the natural highs and lows.
Lower taxes. Lower interest rates. Print money. Cut spending. Relax trade laws. Interstate commerce. Build roads. airports. trains. canals. armies. navies. War.
It’s all been tried and we still only can achieve endlessly-looped cycles of boom and bust.
getalife
October 17th, 2012
12:23 pm
“have the past four years been Clinton-esque?”
Yes.
Our President hired his team.
mitt hired neocons.
Gravy Train
October 17th, 2012
12:24 pm
Kyle, Obama is not the one claiming to overhaul the entire tax code. The only detail he needs, he has said repeatedly. Raise taxes on your plutocrat masters. Got it?
Kyle Wingfield
October 17th, 2012
12:24 pm
sailfish @ 12:22: Again, how worked up are you about Obama’s lack of specifics?
Kyle Wingfield
October 17th, 2012
12:25 pm
getalife @ 12:21: The only thing you got right in that comment is my name.
Georgia
October 17th, 2012
12:25 pm
Obama has NOT had four years. Even Rush Limbaugh admits that the first year was W’s fault. That leaves only two and a half years.
Romney better come up with a plan, and if he does, and if he can sell it, then he’ll win, AND I’ll vote for him.
Del
October 17th, 2012
12:26 pm
The libs sure are defecating in one hand while desperately wishing in the other. As Obama marches ever closer to the firing block the libs will begin to see what they’re getting all over their wishes as they rub their hands together in mental anguish.
Gravy Train
October 17th, 2012
12:27 pm
So how about those magic underwear, Kyle?
getalife
October 17th, 2012
12:27 pm
Kyle,
“The only thing you got right in that comment is my name.”
Come on Kyle, you can do better than that.
Lets filter out the bs and get down to the facts.
Kyle Wingfield
October 17th, 2012
12:27 pm
Gravy @ 12:24: Nice work dodging the question I asked you specifically.
Now, my questions to others about specifics from Obama have been about his entire agenda, not just taxes. Where are the specifics from Obama about anything?
Or do you just want to stick with the juvenile magic underwear jokes?
Kyle Wingfield
October 17th, 2012
12:28 pm
Boy, do I know you, Gravy, or what?
adam smith's invisible hand
October 17th, 2012
12:29 pm
I’m certain Romney will win. Well, he’ll win Georgia, because we’re not too smart. As for the presidency, he doesn’t have a prayer. At least he’s got those millions in the Caymans to assuage his pain.
sailfish
October 17th, 2012
12:30 pm
kyle
Lack of specifics? Where have you been, china? He put forward the jobs bill which the house has stalled. Record number of filibusters on many economic fronts, over 30 consecutive months of adding new jobs. I think the trending here is noteworthy, give obama his due, things are moving in the right direction. With romney using tax cuts as his centerpiece it would be more like a hope and a prayer, we’ve seen that movie before, why would you expect a different ending?
getalife
October 17th, 2012
12:30 pm
“Romney better come up with a plan”
Same ole plan as always for the gop.
Tax cuts and no regulations then lie about helping the middle class but they refuse to vote to help the middle class.
Nothing new.
The gop has not changed.