VP debate live thread: Biden vs. Ryan
FINAL UPDATE: As predicted, this debate won’t end up mattering very much. Each base will be pleased with its candidate and bewildered anyone could think much of the other guy, but I can’t imagine undecideds picking Obama or Romney based on tonight.
***
UPDATE at 9:50: The story of this debate so far is Biden’s rude and erratic behavior — interrupting Ryan repeatedly and weirdly laughing throughout Ryan’s remarks. As I said before, the obvious strategy is to portray Ryan, and by extension Romney, as untrustworthy. But there’s enough in his own remarks — his claim that no Democrats support Medicare premium support, for example — that should be howled down by the fact checkers that it isn’t going to work.
It will be interesting to see how well Ryan’s barrage of data and statistics goes over. Biden has stuck with one or two figures per answer; even though they’ve often been wrong, out of date, or misleading, the simplicity might work better. We shall see.
***
UPDATE at 9:20: Biden is doubling down on the idea the GOP candidates don’t tell the truth: “malarkey” and “incredible” are the words he uses to open his initial responses to Ryan’s comments. But it seems to me he left himself very much open to the fact checkers with his comment that there were no requests for additional security in Benghazi — there’s already been sworn testimony to the contrary before Congress.
That’s about all Biden said about Libya, as he quickly changed the subject to Iraq and bin Laden. Compared to Ryan’s detailed breakdown of what went wrong in Benghazi, I’m guessing that didn’t go over well with viewers.
***
ORIGINAL POST:
I’ll be updating this post periodically during tonight’s debate between Vice President Joe Biden and his would-be successor, Paul Ryan. I’ll also be tweeting my thoughts, and I encourage you to follow them, too.
On Monday, I wrote about the expectations factor in last week’s first presidential debate. I think that could play out the opposite way tonight: Republicans, in particular, are positively giddy about the prospect the well-spoken Ryan will tear the gaffe-prone Biden to shreds. But this ignores the fact Biden has more experience in this type of setting and a demeanor that could translate well to the viewership. Ryan is an unknown quality as far as debates go, though he’s proven to be effective at retail politics.
And there’s the question of how much tonight will matter, anyway. Who remembers the Dick Cheney-John Edwards debate in 2004? The Cheney-Lieberman debate in 2000? Lloyd Bentsen tore Dan Quayle a new one in 1988, while Quayle performed better than expected against Al Gore in 1992 — and yet neither Michael Dukakis nor George H.W. Bush won their respective races.
A Ryan win could keep momentum on the GOP’s side, while a Biden win could be used to spark an “Obama comeback” story. Would either development outlive next Tuesday’s Round 2 between President Obama and Mitt Romney? I doubt it.
But hey: It will, no doubt, be fun to watch and discuss.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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234 comments Add your comment
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 12th, 2012
10:50 am
I see that “independent” “thinker” (two words that should never be used in conjunction with his posts) has joined the Gravy Train religious bigot bandwagon.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 12th, 2012
11:02 am
Finn, your “piece de resistance” only plays to the base (meaning you).
People with critical thinking skills know that Romney wasn’t speaking about what Smilin’ Joe was speaking about. We know Romney was referencing the 47% of people who will vote for Obama no matter what – because he’s a Democrat, he’s black, or yes, because he’ll make sure the social programs many of your base feel are mandatory for government to issue, and people to take advantage of continue or expand.
It was an inarticulate way of saying that he’s never going to reach those people with ANY argument whatsoever. And he’s 100% correct in that regard.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
October 12th, 2012
11:13 am
What I took away from this “debate”.
Biden showed the most disrespect and rude behavior, I ever remember seeing from a Vice President.
The Dems do not think we are in a financial crunch, no need for any spending reforms or entitlement reforms, just keep on keeping on, things are getting better.
After two debates neither Barry nor Joe has mentioned anything they want to accomplish in a second term or any plans they hope to implement, other than raising taxes on the rich.
Their plans to raise taxes on the rich has nothing to do with budgets or deficits, it is just their effort to impose their version of “fairness” on America. They do not deny the charges that the amount raised from the tax increase on the wealthy is not going to significantly cut the deficit.
That Joe Biden has serious self control and self esteem issues. I would be very fearful of him as a possible President.
Drudge
October 12th, 2012
11:25 am
Someone forgot to tell Biden that he wasn’t arguing in Trump’s boardroom on Celebrity Apprentice.
Old Timer
October 12th, 2012
11:27 am
For Biden civility is dead.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
October 12th, 2012
11:32 am
Romney didn’t flip on abortion……all he said was he had no plans to offer legislation to change the status quo, but at the same time he acknowledged he is still anti-abortion.
Then he said basically the exact opposite hours later.
PROUD NAVY VET
October 12th, 2012
11:34 am
Tiberius,
1. “My health plan will cover pre-existing.”
2. An ‘Unelected Board’ Controlling Your Health Care- as the Associated Press points out , the board that is tasked with bringing down Medicare costs is prohibited from “rationing care, shifting costs to retirees, restricting benefits or raising the Medicare eligibility age. So the board doesn’t have the power to dictate to doctors what treatments they can prescribe.” This Romney claim also hearkened back to Sarah Palin’s lie that Obamacare created “death panels,” which was a straight up lie.
3.. A Bipartisan Record -Romney referred to his alleged “bipartisan” record in Massachusetts as governor during the debate. But what’s the real story on this? ABC News calls the claim “not quite factual.” Indeed: Romney’s health care plan was enacted with the help of a Democratic legislature. But in general, the body was “frustrated” with Romney “because he wanted to govern like a ‘CEO’ and ‘didn’t pay heed to the legislature and they resented that,’” according to the Massachusetts Taxpayer Foundation’s Michael Widmer.
4.Dodd-Frank Labels Banks as ‘Too Big to Fail’-
One contrast between the candidates that emerged during the debate was over Dodd-Frank, the weak Wall Street reforms and regulations passed after the 2008 financial collapse. Romney wants to repeal Dodd-Frank, and part of the reason why is his claim that the bill designates banks as “too big to fail” and therefore gives them “a blank check.” But as ThinkProgress notes, this is far from the truth: “the law merely says that the biggest, systemically risky banks need to abide by more stringent regulations . If those banks fail, they will be unwound by a new process in the Dodd-Frank law that protects taxpayers from having to pony up for a bailout.”
5. The Failure of the Obama Economy -Romney hammered Obama on the economy’s performance over the past four years. One claim Romney made was this: “[We have] 23 million people out of work…The proof of that is that 50 percent of college graduates this year can’t find work.”
But here’s the AP breakdown of the facts on this claim: “The number of unemployed is 12.5 million, not 23 million. Romney was also counting 8 million people who are working part time but would like a full-time job and 2.6 million who have stopped looking for work, either because they are discouraged or because they are going back to school or for other reasons.”
And on the college graduate claim, Romney was also wrong. Back to the AP: “A Northeastern University analysis for The Associated Press found that a quarter of graduates were probably unemployed and another quarter were underemployed, which means working in jobs that didn’t make full use of their skills or experience.”
6. No Tax Cuts for the Rich
To fend off the perception that he’s only concerned about the wealthy, Romney made sure to emphasize that his economic plan would not lower tax rates on rich people.
Think Progress has the details on that claim: “If Romney were to actually implement his plan to reduce tax rates by 20 percent while eliminating tax deductions in order to pay for it, taxpayers with more than $200,000 would certainly see a tax cut. But everyone else — 95 percent of Americans —will see their taxes increase.”
This information listed contains cites as to who said it was untrue. Again, President Obama has some problems also.
If you like, I have more.
TBone
October 12th, 2012
11:45 am
Biden just used the debate tactic used by many open minded liberals, yell and interupt. He showed himself as not only devoid of ideas but a rude and obnoxious angry man. Vote for the MORMON.
Tom(Independent Viet Vet-USAF)
October 12th, 2012
11:50 am
Jamvet@9:00 – “Who is responsible for getting Bin Laden”? Even a blind squirrel can find an acorn every once in a while!
Gravy Train
October 12th, 2012
11:53 am
Tiberius, stop pulling “tails” and get with some facts! If a man claims to be a priest of a religious cult, any reasonable man will examine that cult. If you don’t like it, stop letting your plutocrat masters push a cult member on America. I think Biden did great in acknowledging that his personal beliefs don’t apply to everyone else. Why won’t Willard do the same?
TBone
October 12th, 2012
11:54 am
And I heard that sometimes those squirrels can find their nuts!
Gravy Train
October 12th, 2012
11:55 am
Hey Tom: So Why couldn’t W find him then?
Gravy Train
October 12th, 2012
11:56 am
I already know why W couldn’t find his own. There were never any there to begin with.
Gravy Train
October 12th, 2012
11:58 am
Much like Saddam’s vaunted WMD’s! LOL Look at the sheep scramble to spin Boy Blunder in a positive light! Keep it coming chumps, I love the laughs.
PROUD NAVY VET
October 12th, 2012
12:00 pm
Tiberius,
I truly do my best to be civil and not demean anyone here because I feel that’s the main reason the country is so split. It would be wonderful if every day people that you may talk with if you call a business or may meet at the mall. Why do you have such a superior attitude? You really come off as if your better and smarter then anyone else that post here. Your not. Plain and simple. You are not. I feel you’ve missed your calling. You would do well to send Rush a resume’. Wht do you try to insult everyone who has a different outlook then you? I worked at a major telcom in the southeast for 27 years and retired. There was a mnagement team in place that was older. There was so much wisdom displayed by senior management. As a new younger manager, I had the honor of learning respect and everyone has value. I was also taught to be very careful. Who you meet on the way up, you’ll see again on the way down. In other words RESPECT all people. I accepted a job two years ago with the telcom that bought out my old company. The average manager at that company is around 33. I quit. The management team there talks and acts a lot like you. Rude, snobby and think that nobody knows more then they do. I would hazard a guess that your in your early to mid 30’s most likely you have a graduate degree and think you’re the smartest one in the room. You very well may be. I could also bet the house on this. There are people just waiting for you to screw up and when you do, they will flame your butt in just the way you deserve. Didn’t your dad and mom teach you anything at all about how to treat people? I have a feeling, you will learn life lessons soon, and it will be much deserved.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 12th, 2012
12:01 pm
OK, Proud Navy Vet, you’ve got the DNC talking points down pat, but why is it that you don’t do your own research (for one) and more importantly, pay attention to what was said instead of what you wanted to hear?
“1. “My health plan will cover pre-existing.”
It will. You may not like the extent to which it does, but it does.
“2. An ‘Unelected Board’ Controlling Your Health Care- as the Associated Press points out , the board that is tasked with bringing down Medicare costs is prohibited from “rationing care, shifting costs to retirees, restricting benefits or raising the Medicare eligibility age. So the board doesn’t have the power to dictate to doctors what treatments they can prescribe.”
When you can’t defend the program, change the terminology to make your case. No one (including Romney) spoke about rationing care or “death panels”. The board get to decide what procedures ARE PAID FOR AND HOW MUCH IS PAID, not treatment prescribed.
“3.. A Bipartisan Record -Romney referred to his alleged “bipartisan” record in Massachusetts as governor during the debate. But what’s the real story on this?”
Here’s the real story, Navy Vet. He had a Democrat legislature that didn’t like his style Boo frikkin’ hoo. But ABC News focused on that, instead of the actual record he compiled: Balanced budgets. Shifted taxes to fees so that the people who actually used the services paid for them, not taxpayers who didn’t use the services. Lowered unemployment to virtual full employment. Maintained an excellent education system. Passed Romneycare. Did it ALL with a legislature that was 87% (or worse) far-left Democrat-controlled. Wonder why ABC News didn’t bother with this stuff?
“4.Dodd-Frank Labels Banks as ‘Too Big to Fail’-”
ThinkProgress as your financial source, Navy Vet? Really? Why don’t you just us ea quote from Stephanie Cutter if you want the Obama campaign’s take on something. Try harder, son.
“5. The Failure of the Obama Economy -Romney hammered Obama on the economy’s performance over the past four years. One claim Romney made was this: “[We have] 23 million people out of work…The proof of that is that 50 percent of college graduates this year can’t find work.”
But here’s the AP breakdown of the facts on this claim: “The number of unemployed is 12.5 million, not 23 million.”
Yeah, the under-employed should be in that figure, as should the millions who have simply given up looking for work. The 23 million is fully accurate.
“6. No Tax Cuts for the Rich ”
Stay away from the ThinkProgress crack pipe, Navy Vet. When you lower the tax rate for the wealthy, and get rid of the tax loopholes they enjoy, they end up paying the same effective tax amount as before, therefore no tax cuts for the rich. Now, will it be a 20% rate cut? Who knows. That’s Romney’s goal. But as he stated during the debate, he’d reduce the rates according to the loopholes and deductions being eliminated – his goal is to make the rate cut revenue neutral – and the end result will be up to Congress as to what they will agree with.
So nice try, Navy Vet, but a huge failure on your part. Do some research by staying away from the biased sources you currently use and look at BOTH sides, or find an objective one if you can.
Tom(Independent Viet Vet-USAF)
October 12th, 2012
12:06 pm
Two thoughts to express – (1) Too much on foreign issues, abortion, social issues and not enough on jobs, economy, medicare, & Social Security. Was not really what voters were that interested in. Who picks these moderators? She(lefty) was trying to get the female vote back to Obama by constantly talking about abortion, since Romney had made significant gains with female voters. Also it is alledged,Obama attended her wedding and was seen at Biden’s house several months ago(for reasons yet unknown). (2) If Romney/Ryan is elected, I will bet you they will not refer to Obama’s administration as a excuse for not accomplishing their goals.I’m sick and tired of constantly hearing Obama say it’s Bush’s fault. They will be honest to the public and blame no one except themselves if failure occurs? But I assume that is the difference between the two parties, one is Democrats and the other is real Americans!!
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 12th, 2012
12:09 pm
“Why do you have such a superior attitude? You really come off as if your better and smarter then anyone else that post here. Your not. ”
Sorry, but while we are all created equal, some of us advance more than others. I have. Deal with it.
“I would hazard a guess that your in your early to mid 30’s most likely you have a graduate degree and think you’re the smartest one in the room. You very well may be. I could also bet the house on this.”
And as you’ve been so wrong on your posts, you’re wrong here as well. I’m turning 56 later this year, and am voluntarily retired. I work part time just to keep busy and meet people. I don’t have a graduate degree, but a lifetime of experience in many different environments dealing with facts, data, people and their responses.
And in most cases, I AM the smartest one in the room, but I am always willing to be educated by those who prove they know more than me. On this blog, that doesn’t happen every often. Again, deal with it.
Gravy Train
October 12th, 2012
12:10 pm
Tibi, you need to understand that Willard has no right, Constitutionally or otherwise, to force the teachings of Joseph Smith on America. If he personally, or you, feel that abortion is wrong, then don’t get an abortion. If you or he feels that gay marriage is wrong, then don’t marry a gay person. I will not stand by and say nothing when a cult is trying to hijack our government. I’m sorry that you can’t see that, publicly anyway. If you are as impartial as you think you are, this should be a no brainer. Unfortunately, you feign neutrality for appearances sake only. Just like Willard.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 12th, 2012
12:11 pm
Oh, and my Mom and Dad taught me to never be ashamed of being right about anything.
Tom(Independent Viet Vet-USAF)
October 12th, 2012
12:12 pm
Gravy Train – Shouldn’t you be over at Jay Bird’s liberal blog at the rock quarry. I hope Obama chooses to thrown Hilliary under the bus for the terrorist attack, would love to hear what Bill Clinton would say about him then.
Gravy Train
October 12th, 2012
12:22 pm
Navy Vet: You need to understand a few things about Tibi. First, he is a magic underwear wearer. Secon, he is an old, white, xenophobe and possibly a closeted Log Cabin Republican. He likes to sit on his high horse and demean anyone who doesn’t agree with his troglodyte mentality.
Also, I want to thank you for your service. My grandfather was a Navy man too. He was on the ship that the treaty with Japan was signed on. He also carried Japanese shrapnel around in his body for the rest of his life. Not once did he tell me that war is the best option. Men that have been there have a much better understanding than a man who thinks riding around Paris selling magic underwear is the equivalent of sitting in a fox hole in Vietnam.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 12th, 2012
12:23 pm
“Tibi, you need to understand that Willard has no right, Constitutionally or otherwise, to force the teachings of Joseph Smith on America.”
Gee, Gravy Train, I did not know that . . .
You are SUCH an idiot.
Now, please tell me why Mitt Romney would be any more capable of doing that than Jack Kennedy was in forcing the teachings of the Pope on America.
But unlike you, I know that in his entire public life, he hasn’t shown one iota of the behavior of which you speak. In fact, his religion is a far more personal and private matter to him than many people in public office today. Based on your argument about abortion and gay marriage, any Baptist, Catholic, Mormon or Muslim would be unqualified to serve as President due to their religious beliefs, yet I don’t see you disparaging them s you do the Mormon faith.
You’re a religious bigot, plain and simple.
btw, I agree with your positions on abortion and gay marriage (and have disagreed with my conservatives on this blog vociferously), but neither of them are as important as a free economy and a smaller overall government in size and scope. Since I’m neither gay nor have the ability to father any more children, the social issues are not as important to me as the economy and national security, but I will never denigrate a religion simply because I disagree with it’s tenets.
Gravy Train
October 12th, 2012
12:31 pm
Men like Kyle, Tibi, Willard and Boy Blunder love to pound their chests and beat the war drums. Only problem is, when the bullets start flying, they run and hide. Definitely not leadership material.
Gravy Train
October 12th, 2012
12:38 pm
For the last time, Tibi. Christianity is a religion. Mormonism is a cult. President Kennedy, just like Vice President Joe Biden did last night, made it clear that personal beliefs are not for everyone. Willard has yet to clarify this. He is not just a “mormon” he is a priest of the cult. He contributes hundreds of millions of dollars to the cult and calls it “charitable.” So, when the Pope runs for president, your comparisons would be valid. Until then, you are stuck with Willard. Willard remains quiet on his role in the cult because he’s hoping that we will not notice it. He doesn’t want to talk about his cult in depth because he would lose millions of votes if he did. Apparently, you are not as smart as you think.
PROUD NAVY VET
October 12th, 2012
12:43 pm
Most of the time, A person who is confident with who they are does not have to get up on their soap box and tell everyone how great or how smart they are. I said I would bet you were… Ok, I was wrong. No big deal, not the first time, won’t be the last. Seriously, if your that smart, cool. Congrats. That and a buck gets you a coffee at McD’s. My point is this, lighten up. If you were all that great, you’d be in DC running sh*t. but your not. When you don’t have to prove your right and others do it for you, that speaks volumes. I guess your smarter then all of those fact checkers? The fact that you use the screen name Tiberius tells us a lot about you. Delusions of grandeur. Go ahead and give your reply. Because I don’t have the desire to keep this up. You know the old saying “The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool” Shakespeare “I’m done wit dis guy” Joe Pesci My Cousin Vinny
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 12th, 2012
12:45 pm
“Only problem is, when the bullets start flying, they run and hide.”
Please detail the military experience of Obama and Biden for us, will ya, Gravy? I served in the USAF. How about you?
“Definitely not leadership material.”
You mean like Biden being the ONLY person in the WH Situation Room to advocate against getting Bin Laden?
“Christianity is a religion. Mormonism is a cult. ”
Your opinion, not matter how wrong, is noted.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 12th, 2012
12:48 pm
“Most of the time, A person who is confident with who they are does not have to get up on their soap box and tell everyone how great or how smart they are.”
I don’t usually, Navy Vet, but since you brought it up I thought I’d clarify for you.
“If you were all that great, you’d be in DC running sh*t.”
Sorry, but I’m much better suited for benevolent dictator, as I can’t stand having to deal with those of a lesser talent.
“I guess your smarter then all of those fact checkers?”
Yes, but more importantly, I’m not biased as they are.
PROUD NAVY VET
October 12th, 2012
12:59 pm
Gravy Train, I like you.
TBone
October 12th, 2012
1:49 pm
Gravy Boat … You need to get some professional help for that Bush Derangement Syndrome of yours. I think after this much time it’s a little pathetic that you don’t have anything else. Get creative.
Gravy Train
October 12th, 2012
2:23 pm
Thank you, PNV. You watch my back and I’ll watch yours.
Gravy Train
October 12th, 2012
2:26 pm
I’ll compare ASVAB scores anytime you want, Tibi. Unfortunately, I could not pass the physical. That was the only thing stopping me from watching people like you swabbing heads while people like fly the jets.
Gravy Train
October 12th, 2012
2:28 pm
TBone, I think your party needs some professional help because they’re still trying to push the same W policies even though they’ve been proven disastrous. Learn from history or you’re doomed to repeat it, chump.
TBone
October 12th, 2012
2:49 pm
Gravy Boat …You mean kind of like all of the policies your messiah adopted from the the dreaded W. Why are they called the Bush tax cuts when Obasma re-adopted and took ownership? Is Gitmo still functioning? Does it make you feel all better to call people names?