VP debate live thread: Biden vs. Ryan
FINAL UPDATE: As predicted, this debate won’t end up mattering very much. Each base will be pleased with its candidate and bewildered anyone could think much of the other guy, but I can’t imagine undecideds picking Obama or Romney based on tonight.
***
UPDATE at 9:50: The story of this debate so far is Biden’s rude and erratic behavior — interrupting Ryan repeatedly and weirdly laughing throughout Ryan’s remarks. As I said before, the obvious strategy is to portray Ryan, and by extension Romney, as untrustworthy. But there’s enough in his own remarks — his claim that no Democrats support Medicare premium support, for example — that should be howled down by the fact checkers that it isn’t going to work.
It will be interesting to see how well Ryan’s barrage of data and statistics goes over. Biden has stuck with one or two figures per answer; even though they’ve often been wrong, out of date, or misleading, the simplicity might work better. We shall see.
***
UPDATE at 9:20: Biden is doubling down on the idea the GOP candidates don’t tell the truth: “malarkey” and “incredible” are the words he uses to open his initial responses to Ryan’s comments. But it seems to me he left himself very much open to the fact checkers with his comment that there were no requests for additional security in Benghazi — there’s already been sworn testimony to the contrary before Congress.
That’s about all Biden said about Libya, as he quickly changed the subject to Iraq and bin Laden. Compared to Ryan’s detailed breakdown of what went wrong in Benghazi, I’m guessing that didn’t go over well with viewers.
***
ORIGINAL POST:
I’ll be updating this post periodically during tonight’s debate between Vice President Joe Biden and his would-be successor, Paul Ryan. I’ll also be tweeting my thoughts, and I encourage you to follow them, too.
On Monday, I wrote about the expectations factor in last week’s first presidential debate. I think that could play out the opposite way tonight: Republicans, in particular, are positively giddy about the prospect the well-spoken Ryan will tear the gaffe-prone Biden to shreds. But this ignores the fact Biden has more experience in this type of setting and a demeanor that could translate well to the viewership. Ryan is an unknown quality as far as debates go, though he’s proven to be effective at retail politics.
And there’s the question of how much tonight will matter, anyway. Who remembers the Dick Cheney-John Edwards debate in 2004? The Cheney-Lieberman debate in 2000? Lloyd Bentsen tore Dan Quayle a new one in 1988, while Quayle performed better than expected against Al Gore in 1992 — and yet neither Michael Dukakis nor George H.W. Bush won their respective races.
A Ryan win could keep momentum on the GOP’s side, while a Biden win could be used to spark an “Obama comeback” story. Would either development outlive next Tuesday’s Round 2 between President Obama and Mitt Romney? I doubt it.
But hey: It will, no doubt, be fun to watch and discuss.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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234 comments Add your comment
Ter
October 12th, 2012
12:48 am
My son is on his high school debate team and I would be ashamed to see him act as Joe Biden did tonight. He missed an opportunity to show leadership by smirking, laughing out loud while his opponent was speaking, and interrupting. Rather than rely on the strength of his arguments, he resorted to taunting and disrespecting his opponent. What a shame for our children to see this as an example of leadership. Being derisive and insulting just weakened Biden, making him appear less confident, more like a kid saying “nu-uh” to an opposing argument.
An Observer
October 12th, 2012
1:55 am
Biden was the jerk he always is. The problem with Washington is people like Biden who scoff at others and are not interested in a reasonable discussion on the issues. All they want to do is score points for their side and disrespect the other guy.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right
October 12th, 2012
2:02 am
Objectively, both did well on substance. Biden tried the 47% argument with little success. Ryan had good counters on many of the facts he relies upon heavily.
The biggest issue was on style. Biden needed to be more assertive to get back his base, but for independents he probably came off as more of an a$$. The CNN poll after the debate gave Ryan a slight edge on who won the debate, but Ryan had a 15-point advantage over Biden in who was more likeable.
That isn’t going to play well with independents.
Overall, entertaining, and slowed the hemmoraging on the Obama campaign, but won’t move the needle much. If at all.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
October 12th, 2012
6:54 am
CNN POLL: Ryan 48% o’biden 44%…
Phil
October 12th, 2012
7:03 am
Biden is like a cartoon character! Hell no I would trust you!!
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
October 12th, 2012
7:05 am
as the Weekly Standard’s Fred Barnes saw it: “You don’t win a nationally televised debate by being rude and obnoxious. You don’t win by interrupting your opponent time after time after time or by being a blowhard.… Biden’s out of control conduct … will be long remembered — and not favorably.”
Thomas Heyward Jr
October 12th, 2012
7:20 am
For those who value freedom, Byden nor Ryden won.
.
Judge James Gray did…………by a landslide.
And he didn’t even have to show up for this state-sponsored infomercial.
.
lol
k
October 12th, 2012
7:38 am
How important is the debate…. Listen up fools…. only a heartbeat away from being the president….. In my lifetime, I’ve see a VP become president after an assination, a Speaker of the House assume the position, and yet another VP (two different ones) step in as president while the president was incapacitated…. How important is the debate…. Listen up fools…. only a heartbeat away…
Whirled Peas
October 12th, 2012
7:39 am
Joe would be a good replacement for Jerry Springer. His demeanor is certainly not vice-Presidential.
JamVet
October 12th, 2012
7:43 am
Smirking Freddie Barnes can go suck a PNAC Popsicle.
The biggest tool in the GOP’s shed…
James
October 12th, 2012
7:46 am
Joe, laughing is rude.
Del
October 12th, 2012
7:51 am
Biden’s condescending high school harry demeanor isn’t selling very well. Even though VP debates historically never mean much this one may be an exception and give Romney even a bigger bounce building on the one he took away from his debate with Obama.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 12th, 2012
7:55 am
may be an exception and give Romney even a bigger bounce
A bit early to be drinking the bourbon?
tiredofIT
October 12th, 2012
7:59 am
Del
October 11th, 2012
7:48 pm
Rafe, of course they’ll accuse Ryan of lying as they have Romney. They have a timing problem, however, because of this inexcusable loss of life in Benghazi.
++
So how do you feel about Bush/Republicans dropping the ball on 911?
Patty
October 12th, 2012
8:04 am
Roswell, Mom, how did Biden do a good job of supporting women’s rights? You mean by taking about who much his faith meant to him, then going against it? If a woman would take control of her body and use the vast number of birth control methods available instead of relying on abortion as birth control, the whole abortion question would be obsolete. But that would mean taking responsibility.
Del
October 12th, 2012
8:07 am
Finn,
Sorry if your guy made an ass out of himself last night but that’s not your fault, so don’t take it personally.
Mark Johnson
October 12th, 2012
8:11 am
Do us all a favor, focus on the policy differences without the spin.
Del
October 12th, 2012
8:17 am
“So how do you feel about Bush/Republicans dropping the ball on 911?”
Do you know who was in office during the first twin tower bombing? How about the USS Cole attack? Who was President when the Sudan offered up bin Ladin?
9-11 was in the planning stages during Clinton’s administration, H.W. Bush, Carter and maybe even as far back as Reagan’s. Our intelligence community and previous administrations didn’t foresee the rise and effectiveness of the radical Islamic jihad. You need to get your facts correct and quit depending on left wing Kool-Aid to make you look informed.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 12th, 2012
8:24 am
Del is testy. Must not have been the overwhelming Lyin Ryan victory he/she fantasized about.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 12th, 2012
8:35 am
Reporters approached Vice President Joe Biden about his strategy in tonight’s debate against Paul Ryan. The vice president left them grasping: “You ever see me rope-a-dope?”
salon.com
RW-(the original)
October 12th, 2012
8:41 am
I’m pretty much in agreement with Kyle’s final update. A couple of things that struck me were one that I think the boorish behavior of Biden’s was a trial balloon to see if polling showed that Obama can get away with that in the next debate and secondly I was impressed with Ryan’s grasp of foreign affairs when going in he was portrayed to be just the numbers whiz kid for domestic budgeting issues.
adam smith's invisible hand
October 12th, 2012
8:51 am
RW – Ryan’s not a numbers whiz kid. Have you seen his budget? He’s a numbers idiot.
md
October 12th, 2012
8:52 am
“So how do you feel about Bush/Republicans dropping the ball on 911?”
A bit disingenuous to compare specific to general………They knew exactly where Benghazi is, where the Ambassador was, and that he had requested additional security PRIOR to his death……..9/11, much bigger haystack.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 12th, 2012
8:55 am
Now does Ryan now have enough credits to earn his “Debate” merit badge? He did good for being up late on a school night.
Del
October 12th, 2012
8:56 am
With a VP only a heartbeat away from the presidency the question becomes who appeared the most presidential last night. On one side you had a grinning buffoon who continually interrupted his opponent in failed attempts to get him off track or change the subject and on the other you had a calm, cool VP candidate who displayed a sound grasp of foreign affairs and domestic issues who articulated in a mature presidential manner. Buffoonery excites many tools for the far- left, so naturally those types will declare Biden the winner.
md
October 12th, 2012
9:00 am
“Now does Ryan now have enough credits to earn his “Debate” merit badge?”
Yes he does……let’s hope he waits awhile to go after his curmudgeon badge that Biden was working on……..
JamVet
October 12th, 2012
9:00 am
My Pet Goat.
He stunk on ice and thousands of innocent Americans were killed due to his incompetence.
But it wasn’t his fault.
It was Jimmy Carter’s.
Who was also responsible for getting Osama bin Laden.
LOL…
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 12th, 2012
9:10 am
Ever Wonder Where the Extreme Right’s Conspiracy Theories and Paranoid Rumors Get Started? Meet WorldNetDaily
http://www.alternet.org/media/ever-wonder-where-extreme-rights-conspiracy-theories-and-paranoid-rumors-get-started-meet
iggy
October 12th, 2012
9:26 am
Smiling Joe. Atleast he keeps his dentures a nice sparkling white.
Lambeau
October 12th, 2012
9:28 am
Biden was rude, arrogant, and downright disrespectful last night. Made me even more ashamed than I already am to say he’s the VP of the United States. He completely disregarded the intent of a debate and showed he is not willing to at least entertain another view. This just further perpetuates the Obama administrations lack of ability to “reach across the isle” which was so promised in the last election. It makes me sick.
iggy
October 12th, 2012
9:29 am
FL moves to Romney.
http://www.electoral-vote.com/
Just Say No to New Taxes
October 12th, 2012
9:29 am
Has it occurred to any of you that both the things in the debates last night were liars, thieves, cowards and traitors? Both have had their hands deep into the Washington Pork Pie, both have voted to squander our tax dollars, and both should be sitting in a prison cell rather than on national tv.
iggy
October 12th, 2012
9:32 am
EU get peace prize? Even more staggering than Obama getting peace prize.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 12th, 2012
9:47 am
I see Oscar the Grouch is up and running his mouth this morning after his all night drinking binge.
He’s got the name calling and insults in play already. Still waiting for the Socialist slogans and the “unfit to lead” repetitive comments from the guy who is unfit to vote.
ROTFLMFAO
October 12th, 2012
9:49 am
Gravy Train,
Get serious!!! In 1960 many though that Kennedy’s Catholic religion would make him a pawn for the Pope – but that didn’t happen. And Romney’s Mormon religion won’t make him subservient to the “Mormon Cult”, either.
But since you are obviously a religious bigot, nothing I say, or anyone else says, will convince you otherwise.
It’s sad when some people can’t put their bigotry aside – to include white bigots’ opinions about a black President.
P.S. I’m a WASP Republican.
MarkV
October 12th, 2012
10:02 am
Biden disrespectful? Of what? Should he have been respectful of Ryan’s distortions of facts, ridiculous accusations, inability to support his assertions? Biden was not disrespectful of Ryan as a person, but was disrespectful of his positions – as he should have been.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 12th, 2012
10:03 am
On Biden’s perfomance:
This is like the Avengers, when the Hulk grabbed Loki and smashed him on the floor.”
hehehe
Magic01
October 12th, 2012
10:03 am
Ok, this ridiculous how people Judge folks……During the Presidential Debate, Romney was cutting the moderator off and over talking out of turn, specifically, when Obama was speaking……It was said that he was “aggressive”…..That’s BS. That was “RUDE” and he showed no self-control. Now people want to say it was rude of Biden to “laugh” during a debate. Are you kidding me?? When someone is telling a bold face LIE….all you can do is laugh. I am glad all Biden did was laugh. Anyhow, they should not have put that adolescent up against his elder to get spanked!!!
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 12th, 2012
10:06 am
Magic01, I suggest you look up the difference between the words “assertive” and “rude”.
In case you didn’t know, when you feel someone is telling a lie during a debate, you get the chance to debunk that lie on your next turn (see, Romney, 1st Presidential debate). Laughing is NOT a recognized rebuttal form in intelligent debate.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 12th, 2012
10:07 am
I haven’t seen a single, solitary post of depth from the liberals on this blog.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 12th, 2012
10:08 am
look up the difference between the words “assertive” and “rude”.
Oh, go kick rocks.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 12th, 2012
10:10 am
posting in depth about what, Tiberius? This blog thread is stale. There is something green and crusty along its edge. Stick a fork in it and turn it over.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 12th, 2012
10:15 am
Why am I not surprised you don’t recognize a lack of depth in posts, Finn?
southpaw
October 12th, 2012
10:24 am
k @7:38 am
Who were the Speaker who stepped up and the President who couldn’t do the job? Just curious.
independent thinker
October 12th, 2012
10:25 am
Thank you Gravy train on that most enlightening article about Romney and Mormon religious beliefs about taking over the government , Lyin Ryan made it clear that his Catholic religious beliefs make him a Theocrat along with his buddy Todd Aiken and that nut job congressman from Georgia and ole Michelle to name a few.
Gravy Train 6:15 pm—October 11:
“A little pre-debate reading for those weary of LDS political intentions
SEE http://www.salon.com/2012/01/29/mitt_and_the_white_horse_prophecy“”"
Here is the part from Gravy Train’s cite last night I like the best:
“”"”"”"”"”"”"Called a “militant millennial movement” by renowned Mormon historian David L. Bigler, Mormonism’s founding theology was based upon a literal takeover of the U.S. government. In light of the theology and divine prophecies of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, unamended by the LDS hierarchy, it would seem that the office of the American presidency is the ultimate ecclesiastical position to which a Mormon leader might aspire. So it is not the LDS cosmology that is relevant to Romney’s candidacy, but whether devout 21stcentury Mormons like Romney believe that the American presidency is also a theological position.
Since his first campaign in 2008, Romney has attempted to keep debate about his religion out of the political discourse. The issue is not whether there is a religious test for political office; the Constitution prohibits it. Instead, the question is whether, past all of the flip-flops on virtually every policy, he has an underlying religious conception of the presidency and the American government. At the recent GOP presidential debate in Florida, Romney professed that the Declaration of Independence is a theological document, not specific to the rebellious 13 colonies, but establishing a covenant “between God and man.” Which would suggest that Mitt Romney views the American presidency as a theological office.”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”
Same comment Mitt made at Colorado debate about god given rights forming the Constitution.
Which God Bishop Mitt??? And why will you not answer questions about Joseph Smith you’re professed mentor and your faith like both Biden and Ryan did last night.?????????
Of course if you are one of the cons who believes we have a practicing Muslim in the White House none of this matters.
PROUD NAVY VET
October 12th, 2012
10:26 am
Who would buy a car from anyone who when asked what the warranty is and the salesman says oh, it’s covered, don’t worry. If the President were to say that about any of his plans, what would the right say? They would go through the roof. All of the independent experts say there is not enough information to make an informed assessment. It’s just that simple. If my home mortgage deduction is taken away, I will be super pi**ed!! Seriously, it only makes common sense to have all of the facts so an informed decision can be made. Any deal made in any form of business, both parties has to know what they are entering into. Even the right will be upset if that deduction is lost. I admitted the President embellished on some points during the debate. Yesterday I asked for anyone on the right to admit Gov. Romey embellished also. No takers. We as Americans have to tell the truth, even when our choices don’t. They ALL lie. Again, just one Romney supporter say the Gov. did not tell the truth in some of the statements he made. I feel the VP debate was good. Both men held their own, I call it a draw. Ryan is a smart guy, Biden is also.
iggy
October 12th, 2012
10:27 am
More yummy goodness. Soon the swing States will begin to fall like dominos into the Romney/Ryan basket.
http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/willis-report/blog/2012/10/11/computer-predicts-election
Hillbilly D
October 12th, 2012
10:43 am
The problem with political “debates” at the national level is that the candidates are preaching to the converted. The comments here back that up. The campaign has been going on for 3 1/2 years, so how anybody could be “undecided” at this point, is beyond me anyway.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 12th, 2012
10:46 am
Here is the piece de resistance:
These people are my mom and dad — the people I grew up with, my neighbors. They pay more effective tax than Governor Romney pays in his federal income tax. They are elderly people who in fact are living off of Social Security. They are veterans and people fighting in Afghanistan right now who are, quote, “not paying any tax.”
I’ve had it up to here with this notion that 47 percent — it’s about time they take some responsibility here. And instead of signing pledges to Grover Norquist not to ask the wealthiest among us to contribute to bring back the middle class, they should be signing a pledge saying to the middle class we’re going to level the playing field; we’re going to give you a fair shot again; we are going to not repeat the mistakes we made in the past by having a different set of rules for Wall Street and Main Street, making sure that we continue to hemorrhage these tax cuts for the super wealthy.
~Joe “Roppin’ & Doppin’” Biden
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 12th, 2012
10:48 am
Perhaps, Navy Vet, instead of issuing a blanket “he lied” statement, you might try to articulate a particular lie or two you claim Romney made, and see if we buy it.
However, based on your earlier “Romney cheated with notes” post, you really need to work harder to convince us that you have any credibility.