Charter amendment foes twist conservative language to make their case
One of the more surprising things to happen during the debate about the charter-schools amendment is the way some conservatives are buying the arguments advanced by the very same educational establishment they tend to distrust.
Granted, these arguments often sound appealing because they’ve been phrased cleverly in the parlance of the right. So, according to amendment opponents, we stand to get bigger government by taking away local control and handing it to unaccountable bureaucrats via a redundant state agency.
If all that were so, I’d be hard-pressed to support the amendment myself. But the above claim touches reality only in the minds, or at least mouths, of self-interested status quoists who are being more than a bit economical with the truth.
The crux of this claim is the State Charter Schools Commission that would be re-established if the amendment passes, having been declared unconstitutional in a misguided 2011 Georgia Supreme Court ruling.
Here, if you can follow it, is the essence of what amendment opponents say about the commission: We don’t need these seven unelected bureaucrats appointed by the state school board creating, and spending our tax dollars on, charter schools which various local boards of education deemed inappropriate — because we already have 13 unelected members of the state school board who can* create, and spend our tax dollars on, charter schools which various local boards of education deemed inappropriate.
(*Unless someone sues to overturn this power. Because, if we follow the language and logic of the 2011 Supreme Court ruling, that someone would win.)
Got all that?
The contradictions abound:
1. We’re supposed to believe an appeal of local decisions to the state board of education is OK — but an appeal of local decisions to a State Charter Schools Commission is a betrayal of “local control.” (In fact, the most important local control in educational matters belongs to parents, who need more choices to ensure their children get a quality education.)
2. We’re supposed to believe the 13 members of the state school board, all appointed by the governor, are perfectly accountable to the public — but the seven members of the State Charter Schools Commission, appointed by those same 13 state school board members based on recommendations from the governor, lieutenant governor and speaker of the House, somehow won’t be trustworthy.
3. We’re supposed to believe the same local school districts that sued to overturn the original state commission and are actively (and illegally, according to the state’s attorney general) opposing this amendment would sit idly by while the state school board continued to wield virtually the same power. Here, it’s worth repeating: The 2011 Supreme Court ruling leaves no room for any state agency to create charter schools, a power the justices held to be the “exclusive” constitutional domain of local boards. Only an amendment can change that.
4. We’re supposed to believe, by implication, that the new state commission would create some kind of vast parallel school system across the state — even though the original commission approved (see p. 15) a mere 17 charter schools, only 13 of which actually opened, out of 62 applications during its two years of operation.
5. We’re supposed to believe the re-created commission would be some new abomination, even though the relevant section of the legislation enabling it is almost word-for-word the same as the equivalent part of the legislation that created the old commission. And remember, the objections to the old commission came from the educational establishment, which saw a threat to its precious monopoly on the billions spent each year on our public schools.
Finally, we’re supposed to believe all this consternation on the part of the status quoists, whose fine, fine work to date has left Georgia mired near the bottom of national educational rankings, is all about the kids.
This amendment is about the kids, all right. It’s about giving more of them a way to escape the same old crowd that keeps telling us the more things stay the same, the more they’ll change.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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101 comments Add your comment
A reader
October 11th, 2012
6:16 am
We are supposed to believe that 7 additional bureaucrats does not constitute bigger government? We are supposed to believe that 7 additional bureaucrats with the authority to spend tax dollars does not constitute more spending? We are supposed to believe that 7 additional bureaucrats appointed at the state level leads to more local control?
Republicans are started to sound a lot like “tax and spend” Demoncrats in favor of bigger government.
HadIt
October 11th, 2012
6:20 am
All this is about having the taxpayers pay for schools in the basements of Baptist churches where the children will be taught that the earth is nine thousand years old and people and dinosaurs co-existed. And that liberals are from the pitt of hell.
DeborahinAthens
October 11th, 2012
6:33 am
Haft, you are partially right. The rest of the story is that more money will be taken from our public schools to pay private corporations that can teach whatever they want and are not held accountable. These schools can take the best and deny the difficult students….meanwhile, the “regular” public schools have been decimated and continue to deteriorate further. It’s the same plan the Republicans have for Medicare. Give people a “choice” –vouchers–which healthy people can use to pay for part of their health insurance (they have to foot the remaining bill) let those that are unhealthy use traditional Medicare, which is going to go bankrupt because healthy people aren’t using the traditional system. Their plan for eradicating public education works the same way. This way they starve their most hated programs of money.
Del
October 11th, 2012
7:23 am
Amazing how effective left wing propaganda works on those who’ve failed to achieve functional self reliance.
JDW
October 11th, 2012
7:35 am
While many of the arguments put forth by the opponents of the amendment relative to the expense and unaccountability make some sense the real thing I can’t get past is why should the state be able to usurp the wishes of local elected officials when it comes to their school system and budget dollars?
Shouldn’t the state’s job be to set standards, promote best practices and support the local efforts?
Add that to the fact that as Kyle says…”according to the state’s attorney general” school boards are acting unconstitutionally in supporting the amendment while the Governor et al are not while supporting the very same amendment and I smell a rat.
I will be voting no…if I don’t like the way my school board handles Charters then I will vote no when reelection time comes.
JDW
October 11th, 2012
7:40 am
@Kyle…”Finally, we’re supposed to believe all this consternation on the part of the status quoists, whose fine, fine work to date has left Georgia mired near the bottom of national educational rankings, is all about the kids.”
O and on this…no it’s about people standing up and saying that this is not the way forward. No one denies that education needs improvement…except maybe those wishing to redirect education funds to transportation
…It is just that this is not the way. I look at Louisiana where they did exactly the same thing and know that’s not the best way.
http://www.myneworleans.com/New-Orleans-Magazine/June-2012/Charters-Vouchers-Creationism/
alpharetta mom
October 11th, 2012
7:55 am
Speaking of twists in logic Kyle – many of the same “we should make welfare recipients pee in a cup prior to receiving benefits” legislators (which I don’t necessarily disagree with BTW if it actually saved money) now feel that despite the fact that our constitution mandates that all Georgia students are entitled to an “adequate” free public education (which is not being funded for tps), are encouraging the sentiment that all parents are entitled to a charter school that suits their needs. Despite the fact that Republicans are supposed to stand for individual freedom and our constitutional right to worship as we please (and not make others pay for our religious choice), it is now OK to remove the elected voice of the 90% to make sure the 10% can get the school of their choice via an appointed charter commission or divert money via the tax credit scholarship SSO ($51M in 2012) to Christian, Muslim and Jewish schools. Any means justifies the end of by passing the local “government” school boards? That is insane. Your argument rests in quicksand.
Bill
October 11th, 2012
7:57 am
Kyle, you never cease to amaze me!! You are against “big government” except when you are for it. How you can support one more legislative board “for the good of the kids” is beyond me.
So you do not like the current school board – vote them out!! Don’t create one more board to serve the same function. I am against big government except………………..
Regards,
Interested Observer
October 11th, 2012
8:24 am
Whatever happened to the GOP position on local control? They got elected, that’s what happened, and now they are new believers in the need for an expanded government — to promote the GOP agenda. Its education platform is that rich, (mostly) white families want to be able to segregate their kids from the rest of society. They can do that now at myriad private schools, but they want to do it on the taxpayers’ backs.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 11th, 2012
8:25 am
recommendations from the governor, lieutenant governor and speaker of the House
You could have stopped right there…
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 11th, 2012
8:26 am
I can see the Charter schools being run out of Gainesville.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 11th, 2012
8:26 am
You are against “big government” except when you are for it.
He gets that particular tic from the Mitt.
carlosgvv
October 11th, 2012
8:29 am
This amendment IS about the kids, all right. It’s about giving them a chance to escape the same old crowd that’s teaching them evolution, astronomy and some sense of critical thinking. In Georgia, teaching the kids that evolution and The Big Bang Theory are “lies from the pits of hell” are the preferred methods of the conservative majority.
LoganvilleGuy
October 11th, 2012
8:30 am
So unless I misunderstand Kyle…. If I point out that the State can already approve charter schools through the State BOE, I am being hypocritical by complaining about the creation of another unelected state commission… Wow.
We should not be creating more layers of government… especially when one is in place that has the power to do what you seek. If and when the State BOE isn’t allowed to create charter schools, come back and talk to me. Until then, I am voting no.
Shine
October 11th, 2012
8:34 am
Bring back the democrats while we still have some of a state left!!
Cherokee
October 11th, 2012
8:39 am
Conservatives preach all the time that decisions are best made by the government closest to the people. States Rights!… and all that.
But I guess if your supposed values conflict with the shiny goal of more money in the hands of out of state private corporations, the heck with values….
Expanded government
October 11th, 2012
8:39 am
No right-minded conservative could vote for this. It’s an expansion of state gov’t, costing taxpayers $1 million/year. Read Kerwin Swint’s blog yesterday to get the facts.
killerj
October 11th, 2012
8:40 am
Right on the nose kyle,BILLIONS of tax payers money they would not have control of,good man,but who could we trust on either side?
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 11th, 2012
8:43 am
Whatever produces more options for parents to choose from, and a more comptetitive, more free-market approach to education, I’m for. Teachers unions had their chance, and did nothing.
Metro Coach
October 11th, 2012
8:45 am
Hadlt-that has to be the absolute most ignorant comment so far in this entire debate. A debate, I might add,that has been filled with ignorant comments. Charter schools are public schools, they have no affiliation with churches or other religious institutions, unless they have some agreement for facilities usage. At this point, local school boards have basically sole power in determining whether a charter school opens or not. As we can see based on their possibly illegal campaigning on the issue school boards are opposed to charter schools, period, not just an amendment that would allow a state commission to create them. Therefore, how can the public expect these local boards to be open to allowing a charter school to be created? Charter schools have no chance as long as local boards are the sole judge, jury, and executioner. It amazes me how liberals, who are supposed to be the party of freedom and choice, continue to be the anti-choice party.
Metro Coach
October 11th, 2012
8:47 am
Lil Barry Bailout- Anything that the GAE is against is most definitely best for education. If you vote against the GAE then you’re going to be on the right side of the debate.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 11th, 2012
8:52 am
GAE, NEA, and nearly the entire education establishment haven’t been getting the job done. If they had, this debate wouldn’t be happening. We need alternatives and competition. Education funding should follow the child.
Just Saying..
October 11th, 2012
8:59 am
Hoisted by your own petard?
J
October 11th, 2012
9:02 am
Lil’ Barry Bailout – Vote American- Just an FYI, not all teachers are in a union or even want to be in a union.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 11th, 2012
9:06 am
J–I know. I have several friends who are school teachers and despise the associations and unions, and send their own kids to private schools.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 11th, 2012
9:08 am
These folks just want the rest of us to pay for their kids going to private schools. That’s all this is.
Sure, it’s not really “private” schools but when a board can determine which kids get to go and which kids don’t get to go, you may as well call it private.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 11th, 2012
9:10 am
Robert Reich sums up the Romney campaign nicely:
The fundamental question is whether we’re still all in it together – whether as American citizens we continue to have obligations to one another to assure equal opportunity and help for those who need it – or we’re on our own, without a common bond or a common good. Romney and Ryan represent the latter view, a view utterly at odds with what we have accomplished as a nation.
salon.com
teacher&mom
October 11th, 2012
9:10 am
“Finally, we’re supposed to believe all this consternation on the part of the status quoists, whose fine, fine work to date has left Georgia mired near the bottom of national educational rankings, is all about the kids.”
I guess Kyle missed these press releases.
GA ranks 7th in the nation on the 2011 Education Week “Quality Counts” report.
GA ranks 13th in the percentage of students scoring a 3, 4, or 5 on Advanced Placement exams.
GA ranks 2nd in the percentage of African-American students scoring a 3 or higher on the AP exams.
Georgia’s SAT score for its top 10% percent of students is 1,820 compared to the national average of 1,500.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 11th, 2012
9:10 am
Sounds like Finn’s saying we need MORE charter schools, what with all the demand for them.
HadIt
October 11th, 2012
9:10 am
To Metro Coach
Yes they will be public schools–public schools in the basements of Baptist churches teaching against evolution and the other scientific principles that don’t adhere to the fundamentalist dogma. With no control over content, that will be the result. The ultimate goal of all this is the elimination of public schools in favor of state sponsored religious schools. As for being ignorant, there is nothing more ignorant than a bible thumper, which I bet you are.
J
October 11th, 2012
9:11 am
Lil Barry- My wife is a teacher so I get a little annoyed when I think someone is making a blanket statement. I also get tired of the teacher bashing that I hear sometimes (not saying you are but in general). There are alot of good teachers out there that are trying to make a difference in kids lives but they are working with limited resources and no support from parents and the administrations that run schools.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 11th, 2012
9:14 am
“The fundamental question is whether we’re still all in it together”
——————-
What does the government have to do with that?
Everything, if you’re a liberal fascist.
Speed Racer
October 11th, 2012
9:16 am
Why not create an alternative education system? Our current system does not work, does it? People keep saying just vote out the school board if you don’t like it, but the problem is new people will fill the seats of the same old machine that does not work. How about we eliminate public education, period. It’s not the govt’s job to educate our children anyway.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 11th, 2012
9:16 am
I completely understand and agree, J. There are certainly some excellent, caring teachers in public schools. They do get lumped in with the others, and with their so-called “leadership” in the associations, unions, and administration.
jconservative
October 11th, 2012
9:21 am
“…more free-market approach to education…”
I agree. Private schools are the answer. Private schools.
If government is involved it is not free market. And charter schools are government schools.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 11th, 2012
9:23 am
After his modest showing of empathy, Lil Barry will be back at lumping all teachers together and thumping our public education system in 3….2…..1.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 11th, 2012
9:23 am
Charter schools are a “compromise” between a free-market approach and the entrenched, greedy, education establishment.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 11th, 2012
9:25 am
I’ve got the day off, Finn, so get used to it.
dc
October 11th, 2012
9:31 am
Sometimes overturning “local govt control” is absolutely necessary, for the good of the few individuals that are suffering due to the decisions made by the local govt. In this case, it’s the students who are stuck in failing schools, surrounded by thugs who not only don’t want to improve themselves, but don’t want others to as well, w/out an option for another learning environment.
And if you don’t buy the “sometimes local govt has to be overruled” argument….just think civil rights.
JDW
October 11th, 2012
9:41 am
@LBB…”liberal fascist”
There you go again…
Get your wings straight…Left Wing Liberals are Socialists…Right Wing Nuts are Fascists
Aquagirl
October 11th, 2012
9:42 am
(In fact, the most important local control in educational matters belongs to parents, who need more choices to ensure their children get a quality education.)
Kyle, if those children are using tax dollars then it’s not the parent’s sole choice of what type of public education is offered.
I’ll be blunt: I don’t have kids in school. I pay school taxes willingly because I have a vested interest in the education of ALL children. When I am 70, I want doctors available to fix whatever parts of my body have broken down. I want educated citizens who can make more than minimum wage. In short, I want a functioning society because anarchy is tough when you’re 70.
If everyone pays taxes, everyone gets a say in the final product whether it’s bridges (remember your advice for T-SPLOST?) airports, or education. The individual has to live with the choices made by their ELECTED officials.
People who want to take the tax ball (which belongs to everyone) and go home are not small government patriots. They’re immature, whining sore losers who don’t like living in a democratic republic.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 11th, 2012
9:43 am
Fascism is just a means to an end for the liberals…hence “liberal fascists”.
You really should try to think outside your preconceived notions and talking points.
JDW
October 11th, 2012
9:44 am
Lots of people seem to be falling into the role of Charter’s are bad vs Charter’s are good.
They are neither. Well run Charters (my child is in one) do a great job while poorly run ones do not. The question is who should approve and oversee them…the state…or the local school board.
I believe it should be the local school board therefore the amendment in not needed and should not be passed.
JDW
October 11th, 2012
9:45 am
@LBB…”Fascism is just a means to an end for the liberals”
Only means to and end that Fascism provides liberals is when the are…”terminated” by the Fascists
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 11th, 2012
9:47 am
When I’m 70, I want the BEST-EDUCATED doctors available, not the ones who were failed by a greedy government/union education establishment more interested in their pensions and retiree health care than teaching our children.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 11th, 2012
9:50 am
JDW: Well run Charters (my child is in one) do a great job while poorly run ones do not. The question is who should approve and oversee them…the state…or the local school board.
——————
When the education funding follows the child, and parents have multiple charters to choose from, what happens to charters that don’t produce strong results? They disappear and are replaced by charters that perform better.
The free market is the answer.
ByteMe - Got ilk?
October 11th, 2012
9:54 am
I’ve got the day off, Finn, so get used to it.
The teacher work day when the kids are out of school is next Monday, LBB is truant again.
Kyle Wingfield
October 11th, 2012
10:07 am
Aquagirl: In this amendment, we are talking about choices among public schools. And let me suggest that, if you want good doctors, etc. when you are 70, you damn sure want a better education system than the one we have now.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 11th, 2012
10:08 am
A prime example of the conservative meme to privatize everything:
According to an investigation from Bloomberg Markets magazine released Thursday, the growing privatization of food inspection has led to severe failures in oversight and has caused millions of Americans to fall sick.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-11/food-sickens-millions-as-industry-paid-inspectors-find-it-safe.html
Dave
October 11th, 2012
10:10 am
I haven’t made up my mind on this yet; but, why do we need a state agency involved at all? I thought conservatives thought local is better. Federal = terrible. State = bad. Local = we the people good. We don’t want the feds messing with our kids, why do we want state officials having a say?
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 11th, 2012
10:12 am
I pay school taxes willingly because I have a vested interest in the education of ALL children.
Cons can’t see that long game here. Maybe if we put it into bizness terms? Public schools are just creating more consumers for your company’s wares. If Johnny can’t read, Johnny won’t get a job paying him enough to afford your Snuggie.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 11th, 2012
10:13 am
I haven’t made up my mind on this yet; but, why do we need the government deciding what choices should be available? I thought liberals believed in choice.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 11th, 2012
10:15 am
I pay school taxes willingly because I have a vested interest in the education of ALL children.
——————-
How do you feel about your taxes being wasted on a failed government/union jobs program masquerading as an education system?
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 11th, 2012
10:15 am
I thought liberals wanted to control everything? Can you make up your mind?
Kyle Wingfield
October 11th, 2012
10:17 am
Finn: And how well is Johnny reading right now?
Metro Coach
October 11th, 2012
10:18 am
Hadlt, you have no idea what you’re talking about, you really need to stop. Charter schools are bound by the same standards as any other public school. They are not private schools as another ignoramous suggests, the students are selected by a random lottery, there is no tuition involved, the only leeway they have is that they can include in their charter preferences for teachers’ children(which actually is just like traditional public schools, where a teacher can send his/her children to any school in the county b/c of his/her employment status), and preference for siblings(saving transportation costs). You and others are deliberately obfuscating the line between charter schools and private schools. As for your “Bible thumper” line, that’s as old and tired as the race card. Also, notice that the word “Bible” is capitalized because it is the title of a book.
Kyle Wingfield
October 11th, 2012
10:19 am
Dave: In my view, the issue of local control here comes down to parents having more choices — and thus more control — over their kids’ education. The current, ZIP code-based system has not served huge swaths of our population well. We need more competition, and I’m not going to sit up at night worrying about whether the locals or the state authorizes that competition — but I do know that many of the locals have been reluctant to authorize it, and that’s why I support the amendment.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 11th, 2012
10:26 am
How do you feel about your taxes being wasted on a failed government/union jobs program masquerading as an education system?
Cause, you know, it fails for everyone – not one single intelligent person has ever emerged from a public school.
President Barry & Big Bird
October 11th, 2012
10:27 am
“T” is for Teleprompter.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 11th, 2012
10:28 am
Finn: And how well is Johnny reading right now?
Compared to what? School kids in Japan or in Turkey?
Aquagirl
October 11th, 2012
10:29 am
And let me suggest that, if you want good doctors, etc. when you are 70, you damn sure want a better education system than the one we have now.
I completely agree. However giving a small group of parents the right to bail is not fixing the education system. People who want to do an end-run around the current system are not concerned with anyone but THEIR children. People will focus on their children and divert resources even at the expense of others, that’s normal human behavior. But it’s not fixing the system and it’s counterproductive to everyone else. I don’t give anyone a pass because they start crying about the chilllldreeen. What they mean is THEIR children and devil take the hindmost.
I think county-based school boards and most of the educational system is archaic and outmoded. People who are too lazy to change the system are the problem, including these hijackers who want to take a life raft and leave everyone else adrift.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 11th, 2012
10:30 am
Kyle, what will be your response when the board decides your kid can’t go to the school you wanted to send him/her to?
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 11th, 2012
10:30 am
Finn, the US is behind and falling further behind other industrialized nations in education performance.
Don’t fear facts. Do something to improve them.
Like voting American.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 11th, 2012
10:35 am
Our education system is just fine. To hear you folks tell it , we are reverting back to teaching from textbooks from the 1800’s.
Every year, we hear the same old whine about our education system. Even the Romans were moanin’ that their kids weren’t being taught effectively and too many of them were winding up in the Coliseum staring at a lion.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 11th, 2012
10:36 am
A major component of the whining is the greedy government/union education establishment whining for more tax money with which to line their pockets.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 11th, 2012
10:42 am
tax money with which to line their pockets.
ie, having a job.
How dare they work for money! Greedy bahstads!
DawgDad
October 11th, 2012
10:47 am
Kyle, you should by now recognize me as one of the more conservative posters on your blog. I am a well-educated manager in a Fortune 500 company; not a teacher, nor a public employee, nor a union member, etc. etc.
Your op-ed is the most unintelligible piece I’ve read in years. This is a distinction normally held by purveyors of leftist propaganda and race-baiting rubbish.
Cutting through your expansive blather, there is a short list of core issues: (1) Local control of schools, (2) equal access to public services, and (3) public servants should not be enabled to pick winners and losers in terms of access to public services (or “sell” the access for money or political favors).
Some local school districts are in serious trouble. Some Boards and the district citizens need help. We should provide the help, for the betterment of the State. But creating competition WITHIN government by creating a system diverting funds to promote privileged access is destined to harm kids and taxpayers. Period. This proposal does not address the core problems in public education, it plays off the existence of those problems for the benefit of a select few.
Public is public, and public schools and funds should be under local control. If people want to create a Charter school they need to do it privately or work with the local school board. If they don’t like the outcome they need to campaign and make their case LOCALLY. I voted FOR the last S-SPLOST and AGAINST the T-SPLOST. If this proposal passes I will never again vote for a school tax or bond issue in the State of Georgia.
I’m no expert. I’m willing to be educated, but Kyle, articles like yours just steel and energize my opposition.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 11th, 2012
10:50 am
“This amendment IS about the kids, all right. It’s about giving them a chance to escape the same old crowd that’s teaching them evolution, astronomy and some sense of critical thinking.”
Almost got it right, carlos. You forgot to insert the word “failing” between “that’s” and “teaching”.
And you were so close . . . .
A Flawed Assumption
October 11th, 2012
10:51 am
In order to get this amendment passed, charter schools proponents must get you to believe in a flawed premise: that the public schools are failing to educate your children. This just isn’t the case. If you want proof, try doing a kid’s 12th grade Math homework or sit down in your spare time and write a 5 page research paper with correct MLA citations.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 11th, 2012
10:52 am
“Our education system is just fine.”
I can hear the chants: “We’re 44th!” We’re 44th!”
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
October 11th, 2012
10:58 am
Well put, dawg Dad.
Dave
October 11th, 2012
11:02 am
Kyle, Charter and magnet schools, voucher systems and the like have been around for decades “creating competition” and people still bitch about our terrible schools. I thought one of the points of charter schools was to develop new methods that can then be used in the rest of the schools. I don’t think that’s happening. I’m also not sure that increasing the number of charter schools is going to create competion, something more likely to result from a straight voucher system.
Aquagirl
October 11th, 2012
11:09 am
This proposal does not address the core problems in public education, it plays off the existence of those problems for the benefit of a select few.
You know Kyle is on thin ice when Finn and I side with DawgDad.
barking frog
October 11th, 2012
11:17 am
Unusually, I agree. I believe
in choice. Any new school is
a good thing. This mechanism allows the
state to target underfunded
school districts with new
schools without local
political interference.
Kyle Wingfield
October 11th, 2012
11:21 am
Finn @ 10:30: Do you know what we’re even talking about here? I’m being serious. We are not talking about a board that decides where every child goes to school. (For all intents and purposes, that’s what we have now.) We are talking about a board that can authorize new public schools. Whether a child is admitted to that school or not has nothing to do with the board. In all likelihood, that’ll be done by lottery in most charter schools.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 11th, 2012
11:25 am
Let’s take DawgDad’s “core issues” one by one, shall we?
“(1) Local control of schools,
How does this affect local control, except in the creation of charter schools? Everything else remains the same, except for who actually teaches the children, doesn’t it? So what “control” is being lost?
“(2) equal access to public services,”
I love it when conservatives steal the code-words of the left to try to make their case. Just as with Sandra Fluke and her “access” to contraceptives not being threatened (just who gets to pay for them), there is no issue with equal access here. No one is denying anyone access to a charter school if this amendment passes.
“(3) public servants should not be enabled to pick winners and losers in terms of access to public services”
See my previous comment.
Kyle Wingfield
October 11th, 2012
11:27 am
Aquagirl: I view this differently. I view it as a chance to have more schools trying different things that may lead to better models for the rest. The traditional public schools don’t have that kind of flexibility; that’s the whole point of charters.
And part of the resistance by many local school systems to this kind of experimentation, in my view, is the high probability that the people running them would be revealed as, ahem, strong candidates for replacement. Thus, we need a state mechanism to bring about this competition.
Tinkerella
October 11th, 2012
11:27 am
I’m all for change AND choices. Just not for an autonomous panel of Governor Sleaze’s picks for a fair and reasonable way to establish such choices. I have choices now if I so choose to exercise them. This is nothing but a money grab for hooked up politicians and their crooked cronies. The local systems work….let them work. If they don’t, vote them out. That is real choice.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
October 11th, 2012
11:28 am
“This just isn’t the case. If you want proof, try doing a kid’s 12th grade Math homework or sit down in your spare time and write a 5 page research paper with correct MLA citations.”
If YOU’RE doing these things instead of your kid, Assumption, then the schools ARE failing to teach your kid.
Mark
October 11th, 2012
11:35 am
The truth please, only the truth. Truth 1 = The states education budget has DECREASED an average of one BILLION dollars a year for the past 10 years ( TEN BILLION ). Truth 2 = State mandates have forced local tax increases, thereby turning man people against public education. Truth 3 = Public education has NEVER been funded as the 1985 QBE law stated. Truth 4 = If this bill pass the funding for traditional education will suffer even more. Truth 5 = Local taxes will increase if this bill passes, because of more funds being transferred to these new charter schools. ( possibly over 1/2 billion dollars by some estimates ) Truth 6 = ON AVERAGE CHARTER SCHOOLS DO NOT OUT PREFORM TRADITIONAL SCHOOL. ( PROVEN IN THE STATE FIGURES ).
barking frog
October 11th, 2012
11:37 am
This amendment creates
nothing new. It is a curative
to make the mechanism
acceptable to the courts.
Kyle Wingfield
October 11th, 2012
11:40 am
DawgDad: Let me ask you a question: If you went to the CEO of your Fortune 500 company and said you thought the company would benefit from creating a competitor to take away some of its customers and revenues, what do you think the CEO’s response would be? Particularly if the company already was not performing as well as it once did and needed to do now?
That’s not a perfect analogy, but it’s more or less how many local superintendents view charter schools today. Yes, some systems do try to work with charter operators. But not enough. And that’s because they view charters as a threat.
Let me ask you another question: Do you think people receiving publicly funded medical care should be told they can only go to one hospital or doctor, regardless of said hospital or doctor’s performance? If those hospitals and doctors are guaranteed a steady stream of patients (and the revenue that comes with them) without having to perform well to keep them, would you expect those hospitals and doctors to get much better or (at best) stay the same? Sure, there would be some that always tried to do their very best, just as there certainly are a number of teachers who do just that. But would you expect the system as a whole to get better or not?
I agree there are many core problems in public education. One of them is there’s virtually no consequence for poor performance. In the meantime, we see generations of kids in some areas of the state who fail to live up to their potential.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 11th, 2012
11:41 am
Kyle has previously debunked the claim that charters don’t perform better than traditional publics serving similar demographics.
Kyle Wingfield
October 11th, 2012
11:41 am
Dave @ 11:02: Charter schools nationwide are only two decades old; they’ve been in Georgia much less time. Vouchers exist in Georgia for only a tiny number of kids — those with special needs. It’s not that these measures have been tried and found wanting, but that they’ve been found difficult and (for the most part) not tried.
Tinkerella
October 11th, 2012
11:44 am
Mark, you are correct. They will try to say local taxes won’t increase by much, but don’t bet the farm on that one. Think money grab.
MAY
October 11th, 2012
11:45 am
@Mark
If truth 6 is true (and it’s not but that’s another story), then make all public schools charter and we can continue along the same path we’ve been on for 40 years and for a hecuva lot less money. Really.
I have said several times that the austerity cuts over the last 10 years have been tough….but we haven’t fallen any. It’s not like we can puff out our chests and say that 10 years ago we ranked 25 and now, with all the cuts, we’ve fallen to 48. THAT sir, is the truth.
Aquagirl
October 11th, 2012
11:46 am
Thus, we need a state mechanism to bring about this competition.
So we need the state’s unelected board to compete with local school boards to prove to voters some kind of unspecified changes are better. So the voters, who you complain aren’t paying attention already, will be motivated to….do something. Like what? Like vote in unspecified people for an unspecified new system based on evidence provided by an uncontrolled experiment that proves nothing?
Got it.
If we really want to compare different educational methods you have to pick children randomly. Parents would have no choice, including withdrawing their kids and placing them in private schools because they didn’t like their draw. These charter schools do not take kids randomly, the parents have to intervene by placing them in the lottery. Sometimes they have to volunteer or provide their own transportation. This means you’re not really comparing two systems on an equal basis.
Kyle Wingfield
October 11th, 2012
11:47 am
Flawed Assumption @ 10:51: Really? Your test for whether the schools are educating our kids well are whether their parents have forgotten what those same schools taught them?
Kyle Wingfield
October 11th, 2012
11:49 am
Tinkerella @ 11:27: The governor doesn’t appoint the members of the commission. Read the law, or read my column.
JDW
October 11th, 2012
11:51 am
“You know Kyle is on thin ice when Finn and I side with DawgDad.”
Now he is really down the tubes because I am with the three of you…
Mark
October 11th, 2012
11:52 am
May, Thanks for at least agreeing with the first 5 truths. That should be enough reason to vote NO on this bill.
Kyle Wingfield
October 11th, 2012
11:54 am
Aquagirl @ 11:46: ” the parents have to intervene by placing them in the lottery.”
You’re right. I recommend watching “Waiting for Superman” and seeing some of the parents who desperately want their kids to be chosen in the lottery because they don’t have the money to move or send them to private school, and their traditional public school is abysmal.
Look, no one on the pro-amendment side claims this is a cure-all. But it is very likely a way to improve outcomes at the margins, which adds up over time.
Kyle Wingfield
October 11th, 2012
11:54 am
JDW and Aquagirl: On the contrary, I’d advise DawgDad to take another look at where he is, if you two and Finn are on his side …
Aquagirl
October 11th, 2012
11:56 am
I’d advise DawgDad to take another look at where he is, if you two and Finn are on his side …
I think he’s already jumped off a cliff somewhere.
Mark
October 11th, 2012
12:02 pm
I forgot the most important truth. Truth 7 = If the local board of education does not improve the school system. VOTE THEM OUT. If they have time left in their term. FORM A COMMITTEE AND ATTEND BOE MEETINGS TO DEMAND BETTER RESULTS. Hold them accountable. It is called THE AMERICAN WAY. Exercise you rights. This is America, and ALL meetings are OPEN to the public.
@@
October 11th, 2012
12:53 pm
I forgot the most important truth. Truth 7 = If the local board of education does not improve the school system. VOTE THEM OUT. If they have time left in their term. FORM A COMMITTEE AND ATTEND BOE MEETINGS TO DEMAND BETTER RESULTS.
Easier said than done here in Clayton County.
Infighting within our school board IS the problem. Parental support FOR the troublemakers makes it all the more difficult to correct.
Sometimes I think it’d be better to appoint than elect the board members. That way we could, at least, have qualification standards.
We do have some good board members. Problem is…most of their time is spent herding the cats.
DeKalb Dad
October 11th, 2012
2:21 pm
Seven additional bureaucrats will approve schools that will cost less per student than traditional public schools is all but the five poorest counties in the state. How is that big government?
Public charter schools are required to administer the CRCT and follow all school equality laws. The charter schools approves by the old state commission acted as their own LEA’s and could not legally refuse to educate any child.
Kyle Wingfield
October 11th, 2012
2:23 pm
DeKalb Dad: Seven *unpaid* additional bureaucrats, at that. They get expenses, nothing more.
ODD OWL
October 11th, 2012
8:14 pm
Charter schools are just another Republican scheme to defund and dismantle the public school system… They will give the parents a voucher to send their Kids to the charter school… Once the public school infrustructures are dismantled, the Republicans will reduce the vouchers bit by bit until they’re eliminated… Results, no school stystem… Don’t fall for the Republican trickery…
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
October 13th, 2012
8:07 pm
Charter schools ARE public schools, so your argument just went bye-bye.
John Daniel
October 14th, 2012
2:53 pm
This post is horrendous. The thesis about gov’t size is a red herring. You correctly point that out for the other side but don’t notice it applies to your ideas equally. Better focus on that instead of constitutional inerrancy as it pertains to conservative parlance! The vaguely-worded constitutional amendment is about privatization and bypassing local control. Everyone knows that if this passes, state-level bureaucrats will be siphoning dollars from as many communities as possible to interested parties/donors.